Soldering/desoldering upgrade

[JoeBean]

Hi all,
I know these questions come up regularly but I've read everything I could find on here and haven't found an answer to my specific issues.

I'm looking to upgrade my existing soldering/desoldering equipment. I currently have a Hakko 808 for desoldering, which works well but is bulky, and Hakko and Aouye " mid"-level soldering and hot air stations, which take too long to warm up and have uneven/unpredictable heat.  After reading recommendations here I thought I had it solved after seeing almost universal praise for JBC stations and seeing that they have a RMSE kit that would seem to suit my needs perfectly for about $4000. But this morning before pulling the trigger I was reading some more reviews on here that indicated  the JBC desoldering tools are lacklustre at best, so before I throw away money I'd like to get some recommendations from people who have actual hands- on experience with some higher-end equipment. 


These are my needs:
1. A good warranty
2. $5000 USD max.
3. Iron, hot air, desoldering, and ideally tweezers. I work mostly on SMD components on multilayer boards repairing phones and computers.
4. Fast recovery times for the iron.  I also don't like the idea of having to change cartridges depending on temp that apparently Metcal requires, but having never used one maybe I'm reading too much into comments on here.
5. Compact design as I'm short on space.  That's one of the things that attracted me to the RMSE

My biggest problems are that while I've read a few people say they didn't like the JBC desoldering tool I haven't seen much for alternate recommendations.  Also, I can't find many comments on their hot air systems, so I'm not sure if there might be a problem there as well.

The RMSE might end up being perfect for me but I'd hate to spend all that money only to be disappointed. And unfortunately my nearest dealer is 2000km away. So any and all help would be appreciated. TIA

[JoeBean]

120+ views and no replies, so I'm guessing that maybe there's no easy answer to this.

After re-reading some of the comments re: the JBC desoldering tool and watching some videos on Youtube from Howard Electronics I can't really see any specific problems with the JBC.  If anyone does have specific issues that they can point me towards I'd appreciate it.  Otherwise I think I might go all-JBC to simplify things.

[RobertHolcombe]

If you're looking for a complete system your options are Ersa, JBC or Pace, pricing and availability will depend on where you are in the world. I've personally only researched Ersa and JBC, I don't know if Pace offer a competing solution to the RMSE or i-CON VARIO 4. I don't think you can really go wrong with either option, they both fulfill your requirements, except the Ersa supports or comes w/ tweezers, where the RMSE would require either an additional control unit, or upgrade to 4-tool (DME) control unit, plus the cost of tweezers and stand.

Personally I am in a similar situation to you; I too use a Hakko 808 and am happy with its performance but seek something more ergonomic and have been looking at investing in a JBC system. I like the idea of having a modular system for future expansion and flexibility, ideally I want to end up with at an iron, tweezer and vacuum desolder configuration. I'm still trying to decide between initial investment in a 4-tool control unit or starting with the DDSE and expanding to tweezers in the future.

[nanofrog]

I only recall one individual that complained of the JBC's desoldering capabilities (issues caused by improper tip selection or by techniques used?  ). One out of every other positive post makes me think you'd be fine with JBC. 

Only seen Ersa in videos, but the performance looks to be excellent as well. I also think they'd have a leg up on consumables costs, as they're not cartridge types.

I'm not as keen on Pace, but due to cost & availability of consumables & spares, not performance.

[JoeBean]

Thanks for the replies.  I'm located in Canada.  I was thinking about Ersa at first but they seem to have almost no presence in North America.  I can't find any online stores selling Ersa products and out of the 4 dealers listed on kurtznorthamerica.com that I tried to contact one doesn't exist anymore (or at least the domain doesn't), one only deals in their industrial stuff for wave soldering etc., and two haven't responded.  My worry is I'm going to have something that I can't get parts and supplies for, or if there's a problem I can't get service for.   But if anyone knows of a North American reseller, or even a euro online dealer that ships to Canada (or one in Austria because my reshipper has a place there) I'd still consider looking into it.

As for upgrading the JBC for tweezers, I have heard from a couple people that said they were able to get the 4 tool DM control in the RMSE package for an extra $100 or so from Howards.  I think the DDE will actually work with the tweezers, but you'd have to disconnect the other 2 tools and reconfigure, which sounds like a pain.     Howards also lists the AM7000SMD (seems like the only place listing it) for $5500, which includes the DE.  Comes with a the T210 handpiece in addition to the T245, the PA120 micro tweezers, and some extra cartridges and some gel flux (whoopee!).  Doesn't seem like enough to justify $2200 though. The price difference for the control is $230, the PA120 costs costs $135, the tips costs $44 each (x2), the T210 is $63, and it's cartridges are $36 each (x2).  That's $588.  So unless I'm missing something huge I don't see the value in it.  I'm going to check with Howard and I'll post if I find anything out.

[JoeBean]

Well, I finally found some info for NA Ersa supplies.  atlantechusa.com sells them.  They have their price list till June 2015 here

So for an ERSA i-CON Vario 4 with i-tool Air S, i-tool, Chip Tool Vario and x-tool you're looking at $4240.  To get a setup similar to the JBC RMSE, including the supply with the i-tool (iron), Air S (hot air), and x-tool (desoldering) but not the chip tool (tweezers) you're looking at $2160 (Vario 2 + everything but x-tool)+$674.25 (x-tool) = $2834.25, or $470 or so less than JBC.  I think I'd have to save a bit more than that to put up with having such a limited number of places to get supplies around here.

[nanofrog]

Perhaps these might be of interest...

For JBC: Janel Online

For Ersa: Murray Percival

[Towger]

Re changing the tip on a Metcal to change the temperature.  You might only need to do this if you are changing solder type. And i say might, as many people would not bother or even see any difference when soldering standard PCBs.
The tip will maintain its temperature unless the item being soldered is capable of sinking over 80w of heat continously.

Unlike a cheap temp controled station where you crank up the heat to compensate for heat being lost from the irons tip.

[JoeBean]

Perhaps these might be of interest...

For JBC: Janel Online

For Ersa: Murray Percival

Thanks for that.  I'm familiar with Janel already, their price is a little higher than howardelectronics but I contacted them as well re: swapping in the 4 tool DM control.  I'll post whatever I might get as a reply from both.

Thanks also for the murraypercival link.  They don't list the I-CON Vario 4 at all (just I-CON 1 and 2), but I'm guessing they can probably get it.  Something that they did list that caught my attention, though, is this Pace "benchtop factory".  It's a bit above my $5k USD target (at $5159) but it has a lot of extras.  I'm sure the desoldering-side will be good as I've never read a bad review of a Pace desoldering station, but I'm not very familiar with the rest of their products so I guess I'll have to do some more research.     Looks like they come up quite regularly on eBay too for $1500-2000. Not sure if that's  a good or bad thing.

[TopLoser]

Well, I finally found some info for NA Ersa supplies.  atlantechusa.com sells them.  They have their price list till June 2015 here

So for an ERSA i-CON Vario 4 with i-tool Air S, i-tool, Chip Tool Vario and x-tool you're looking at $4240.  To get a setup similar to the JBC RMSE, including the supply with the i-tool (iron), Air S (hot air), and x-tool (desoldering) but not the chip tool (tweezers) you're looking at $2160 (Vario 2 + everything but x-tool)+$674.25 (x-tool) = $2834.25, or $470 or so less than JBC.  I think I'd have to save a bit more than that to put up with having such a limited number of places to get supplies around here.

Lurking in the pile under my desk....

ERSA I-Con VARIO 4 complete rework station
http://uk.farnell.com/ersa/i-con-vario-4-0icv4000aicx/rework-station-500w-230v-eu/dp/2342201
New, boxed, works perfectly. $2000 shipped to you in Canada.

[JoeBean]

Lurking in the pile under my desk....

ERSA I-Con VARIO 4 complete rework station
http://uk.farnell.com/ersa/i-con-vario-4-0icv4000aicx/rework-station-500w-230v-eu/dp/2342201
New, boxed, works perfectly. $2000 shipped to you in Canada.

I'm probably a bit dense here

ON EDIT:
Just re-read your comment and yes, I am dense.  I'll PM you.

[TopLoser]

Lurking in the pile under my desk....

ERSA I-Con VARIO 4 complete rework station
http://uk.farnell.com/ersa/i-con-vario-4-0icv4000aicx/rework-station-500w-230v-eu/dp/2342201
New, boxed, works perfectly. $2000 shipped to you in Canada.

I'm probably a bit dense here

ON EDIT:
Just re-read your comment and yes, I am dense.  I'll PM you.

Haha, I always have stuff to sell. Ask anbody on here lol

And you stated US$ earlier in the thread so I thought it best to stick with that.

[JoeBean]

People aren't going to know why you wrote that 'cause I realized what you were saying and edited already...

Anyway, so the station is the 0ICV4000AICX model with the Vario 4, Air S, i-tool, chip tool, x-tool and holder, correct?  That's a really great deal.  Could you tell me if it accepts 120V power?  I'd order a transformer if not, but I would think it would just need a different power cord since they do sell a 120V version.

I'm leaning pretty strongly towards this option.  I'll probably want to think about it for a day, but this is a really good deal.  How'd you prefer to get paid?   PM me details when you get a chance.

[TopLoser]

People aren't going to know why you wrote that 'cause I realized what you were saying and edited already...

Anyway, so the station is the 0ICV4000AICX model with the Vario 4, Air S, i-tool, chip tool, x-tool and holder, correct?  That's a really great deal.  Could you tell me if it accepts 120V power?  I'd order a transformer if not, but I would think it would just need a different power cord since they do sell a 120V version.

I'm leaning pretty strongly towards this option.  I'll probably want to think about it for a day, but this is a really good deal.  How'd you prefer to get paid?   PM me details when you get a chance.

Yes it's the 0ICV4000AICX with all 4 tools and holders. I just opened the box and eveything is new, never been switched on or unpacked. Manufacture date appears to be October 2014. This one is marked "max. 500 W / 230 V / 50 Hz" on the rating plate, fused IEC inlet but no external means of conversion to 120 V, maybe inside you could just move the primary windings about otherwise you would need an external 220/110 transformer.

Anyway... PM sent.

[nanofrog]

Lurking in the pile under my desk....

ERSA I-Con VARIO 4 complete rework station
http://uk.farnell.com/ersa/i-con-vario-4-0icv4000aicx/rework-station-500w-230v-eu/dp/2342201
New, boxed, works perfectly. $2000 shipped to you in Canada.

I'm probably a bit dense here

ON EDIT:
Just re-read your comment and yes, I am dense.  I'll PM you.

I hope you get it, especially at that price. 

FWIW, seems Kurtz Ersa does NOT offer US/CAN voltage specific models (only lists 220 - 240VAC input voltage @ 50Hz; source). That said, solving the 230V issue is easy enough and not terribly expensive either (1000W Step-Up Transformer; bit overkill, but it's both cheaper than an electrician and would allow you room for future 230V equipment  ).  And they offer other models if you don't opt for one this large of course. 

Best of luck. 

[JoeBean]

I hope you get it, especially at that price. 

FWIW, seems Kurtz Ersa does NOT offer US/CAN voltage specific models (only lists 220 - 240VAC input voltage @ 50Hz; source). That said, solving the 230V issue is easy enough and not terribly expensive either (1000W Step-Up Transformer; bit overkill, but it's both cheaper than an electrician and would allow you room for future 230V equipment  ).  And they offer other models if you don't opt for one this large of course. 

Best of luck. 

Hi!
Yep, I'm set on going with the Ersa. That's just too good of a deal to pass up.  I'm in the process of setting up an account on xe.com to be able to send money without getting reamed by paypal.  I started with currencyfair.com but they only do bank transfers from Canada which are a bit expensive and a PITA.  XE apparently does electronic funds transfer, but it takes a day or two to get the account activated what with the money laundering laws everywhere now.

You're right about that voltage issue.  I was thinking JBC which offer 240V and 120V versions.  A transformer is probably simplest for now, and thanks for the link!

[nanofrog]

I hope you get it, especially at that price. 

FWIW, seems Kurtz Ersa does NOT offer US/CAN voltage specific models (only lists 220 - 240VAC input voltage @ 50Hz; source). That said, solving the 230V issue is easy enough and not terribly expensive either (1000W Step-Up Transformer; bit overkill, but it's both cheaper than an electrician and would allow you room for future 230V equipment  ).  And they offer other models if you don't opt for one this large of course. 

Best of luck. 

Hi!
Yep, I'm set on going with the Ersa. That's just too good of a deal to pass up.  I'm in the process of setting up an account on xe.com to be able to send money without getting reamed by paypal.  I started with currencyfair.com but they only do bank transfers from Canada which are a bit expensive and a PITA.  XE apparently does electronic funds transfer, but it takes a day or two to get the account activated what with the money laundering laws everywhere now.

You're right about that voltage issue.  I was thinking JBC which offer 240V and 120V versions.  A transformer is probably simplest for now, and thanks for the link!

If you can wait, and it's cheaper, go for it. 

I've only used PayPal for international purchases thus far (Germany & Japan). The fee was only 2% if the funding source is a checking account, and 4% if the funding source is a credit card last I did this. But I wasn't spending that much either (purchases have been under $200), so $4 or less in fees haven't caused me any annoyance/grievance. 

As per the voltage issue, a step up transformer is certainly the easiest and cheapest way to go, save perhaps wiring a 220V single phase outlet yourself. PITA though, and worth the extra few bucks if running an outlet is the cheaper option IMHO. For example, a 50' or less run to panel using 10/2 NM-B, a 30A breaker, old work box (for existing construction), and 30A twist lock receptacle & plug would run a bit over $100 in materials before sales tax.  I'd spend the extra $40 just to keep from having crawl around in a hot attic, and that's only part of the fun.   

[JoeBean]

If you can wait, and it's cheaper, go for it. 

I've only used PayPal for international purchases thus far (Germany & Japan). The fee was only 2% if the funding source is a checking account, and 4% if the funding source is a credit card last I did this. But I wasn't spending that much either (purchases have been under $200), so $4 or less in fees haven't caused me any annoyance/grievance. 

As per the voltage issue, a step up transformer is certainly the easiest and cheapest way to go, save perhaps wiring a 220V single phase outlet yourself. PITA though, and worth the extra few bucks if running an outlet is the cheaper option IMHO. For example, a 50' or less run to panel using 10/2 NM-B, a 30A breaker, old work box (for existing construction), and 30A twist lock receptacle & plug would run a bit over $100 in materials before sales tax.  I'd spend the extra $40 just to keep from having crawl around in a hot attic, and that's only part of the fun.   

I worked for a while years ago as an electricians assistant, so I know all about attic crawling. ugh....

Paypal's rate will make it $265 CAD extra to send, according to their calculator.  They've been chipping away at people with fee hikes over the last couple years and it's getting to be ridiculous.  I was selling some electronics kits on eBay for a couple years and finally had to give it up last year with the hikes and BS.  The fees made it not worth the headache. Now they want every seller to have a tracking # for every package, so anything you order from China gets you a totally useless tracking number.   The last item I ordered listed the shipper as BS Shipping    Probably a coincidence but I thought it amusing.

[nanofrog]

I worked for a while years ago as an electricians assistant, so I know all about attic crawling. ugh....

Paypal's rate will make it $265 CAD extra to send, according to their calculator.  They've been chipping away at people with fee hikes over the last couple years and it's getting to be ridiculous.  I was selling some electronics kits on eBay for a couple years and finally had to give it up last year with the hikes and BS.  The fees made it not worth the headache. Now they want every seller to have a tracking # for every package, so anything you order from China gets you a totally useless tracking number.

Wow. $265CAN is just insane. 

Maybe it's just Canadian residents that are getting shafted that hard?  I made a German and Japanese purchase respectively just a few months ago (Feb/March), and didn't come anywhere near 10% (under 2% actually; actual transfer was through a bank I've never heard of somewhere in Asia - China IIRC, but not entirely sure -). 

The last item I ordered listed the shipper as BS Shipping    Probably a coincidence but I thought it amusing.

Thinking less coincidence and more of an  sense of humor. 

[JoeBean]

Wow. $265CAN is just insane. 

Maybe it's just Canadian residents that are getting shafted that hard?  I made a German and Japanese purchase respectively just a few months ago (Feb/March), and didn't come anywhere near 10% (under 2% actually; actual transfer was through a bank I've never heard of somewhere in Asia - China IIRC, but not entirely sure -). 

The last item I ordered listed the shipper as BS Shipping    Probably a coincidence but I thought it amusing.

Thinking less coincidence and more of an  sense of humor. 

Well there exchange rates are way off from the going rate, plus they charge a service fee for paying with anything other than paypal funds.  So it can add up.  We used to sell on eBay in USD (because everyone was too scared to buy if it was listed in CAD) and it was crazy how much we lost to Paypal.  At the time they wouldn't deposit USD in any Canadian bank account, even if it was a US funds account, just to force you to use their exchange.  It was crazy.

[JoeBean]

A quick update:  Still no word on the cost for swapping out the 2 channel control unit for the 4 channel.  I did hear back from someone at howardelectronics re: the AM7000SMD package.  It turns out they forgot to mark it down when they put their other JBC stuff on sale so they now have it listed for $4900, or $600 less than they had before.   That's still $1600 more for, as far as I can tell,  the quad control, tweezers, the T210 handpiece, and some extra cartridges.  Oh, and some flux (again, yippee!).  Still seems steep.  Not sure what I'm missing.

At any rate, I'm still set on getting the ERSA from TopLoser (thanks again Ian!).   Can't pass up a deal like that!   I'm going to be ordering the 1000W transformer today or tomorrow to get everything ready.  If anyone has any questions about the station or wants to see/know anything post here and I'll try to answer you as best I can once the station arrives. 

[nanofrog]

A quick update:  Still no word on the cost for swapping out the 2 channel control unit for the 4 channel.  I did hear back from someone at howardelectronics re: the AM7000SMD package.  It turns out they forgot to mark it down when they put their other JBC stuff on sale so they now have it listed for $4900, or $600 less than they had before.   That's still $1600 more for, as far as I can tell,  the quad control, tweezers, the T210 handpiece, and some extra cartridges.  Oh, and some flux (again, yippee!).  Still seems steep.  Not sure what I'm missing.

It's in the hot air portion.

The JBC is much more powerful than the Ersa (700W for the JBC JT-1C that comes in that setup & 200W for the Ersa I-Tool Air S). So the JBC is a general purpose hot air rework that can take on the biggest SMD IC's, including BGA (hot plate/hot air plate might be in order here), while the Ersa is meant for small stuff (passives and small IC packages; think cell phone repair). More akin to the JBC TE-1B which is rated for 300W, or Weller's HAP.

The JBC also includes tripods and shields (they call them extractors & protectors respectively) for removing and soldering IC's that are incredibly handy IMHO. You can buy them separately if you wish. The JBC is also a bit more ergonomic IMHO due to the angled round nozzle (my favorite shape for any).

All this said, the Ersa can't be beat on price, so I still say go for it as you're planning on. 

And should you need the extra power for hot air, I'd recommend taking a look at a Quick 861DW (not kidding, this thing will get it done @ 1kW, and it's well built inside). Shipping is free, and they even offer a 10% off offer (comes to $180.15 shipped    ). Would get you what you need and still come in cheaper than the JBC AM7000 setup by a long shot. 

I happen to own that particular Quick Hot Air Station, and I'm picky about equipment (wouldn't recommend it if I wasn't impressed with it). Round nozzles that come with it are all you should ever need, especially if you use some sort of shield to contain the heat (DIY or buy JBC). No vacuum port on the unit (ones that do are way more expensive), but you have one on the Ersa should you purchase JBC's tripod extractors.  Wish it had a bent round, but I may purchase a spare and see if I can't end the tube without crushing it (i.e. seal end, add water, freeze, bend; same way they manufacture brass musical instruments).

See attached photos of the innards to see what I'm talking about. 

At any rate, I'm still set on getting the ERSA from TopLoser (thanks again Ian!).   Can't pass up a deal like that!   I'm going to be ordering the 1000W transformer today or tomorrow to get everything ready.  If anyone has any questions about the station or wants to see/know anything post here and I'll try to answer you as best I can once the station arrives.

Start a new thread with lots of photos, as Ersa's not well known here in the US.  Especially as QC has slipped in some cases (looking at you, Weller  ).

[JoeBean]

It's in the hot air portion.

The JBC is much more powerful than the Ersa (700W for the JBC JT-1C that comes in that setup & 200W for the Ersa I-Tool Air S). So the JBC is a general purpose hot air rework that can take on the biggest SMD IC's, including BGA (hot plate/hot air plate might be in order here), while the Ersa is meant for small stuff (passives and small IC packages; think cell phone repair). More akin to the JBC TE-1B which is rated for 300W, or Weller's HAP.

I think you mis-read what I was saying.  My comment was an extension of an earlier one I made, before I chose to buy the Ersa, where I was confused why howardelectronics.com listed the JBC AM7000SMD kit for $2200 more than the JBC RMSE kit.  There didn't seem to be enough of a difference between the two to justify the $2200.  So I contacted them and they said thanks, we forgot to put the AM7000SMD on sale.  Then listed it for only $1600 more than the RMSE.  Which still doesn't make sense to me, but the website isn't clear what all the differences are so maybe there's something I'm missing.  Though listing a bottle of flux as one of the features of a $5000 solder station still seems silly.

And should you need the extra power for hot air, I'd recommend taking a look at a Quick 861DW (not kidding, this thing will get it done @ 1kW, and it's well built inside). Shipping is free, and they even offer a 10% off offer (comes to $180.15 shipped    ). Would get you what you need and still come in cheaper than the JBC AM7000 setup by a long shot. 

Thanks for that! I've never heard of the Quick  before.  Looks nice! tonzof isn't working though.  I'll check around for somewhere else.

Start a new thread with lots of photos, as Ersa's not well known here in the US.  Especially as QC has slipped in some cases (looking at you, Weller  ).

Will do!

[nanofrog]

I think you mis-read what I was saying.  My comment was an extension of an earlier one I made, before I chose to buy the Ersa, where I was confused why howardelectronics.com listed the JBC AM7000SMD kit for $2200 more than the JBC RMSE kit.  There didn't seem to be enough of a difference between the two to justify the $2200.  So I contacted them and they said thanks, we forgot to put the AM7000SMD on sale.  Then listed it for only $1600 more than the RMSE.  Which still doesn't make sense to me, but the website isn't clear what all the differences are so maybe there's something I'm missing.  Though listing a bottle of flux as one of the features of a $5000 solder station still seems silly.

Sorry about that. Seems I had a Homer Simpson moment.   

Regarding the RMSE v. AM7000SMD, I'm not seeing it either. Not including any additional tip cartridges (under the impression they usually give at least one free per tool), I only come up with a $765 difference. 

Cost breakdown for $765 difference:

• $230 delta between the 2 & 4 tool control unit
• PA120 tweezers + stand = $135 & $165 respectively
• T210 + stand = $63 & $172 respectively

No way there's $1k+ in accessories, so I'm stumped for the balance.

Thanks for that! I've never heard of the Quick  before.  Looks nice! tonzof isn't working though.  I'll check around for somewhere else.

FWIW, that's where I got mine from. There are other sources, including eBay and MCM Electronics (direct link to 861DW), but both are more expensive (MCM runs a lot of specials, but best I've seen is 20%, which only brings it to $199.20).

Just gave it a go, and everything looks fine for me (PayPal as payment source FWIW). 

Try again? 

[JoeBean]

Regarding the RMSE v. AM7000SMD, I'm not seeing it either. Not including any additional tip cartridges (under the impression they usually give at least one free per tool), I only come up with a $765 difference. 

Cost breakdown for $765 difference:

• $230 delta between the 2 & 4 tool control unit
• PA120 tweezers + stand = $135 & $165 respectively
• T210 + stand = $63 & $172 respectively

No way there's $1k+ in accessories, so I'm stumped for the balance.

That's exactly what I was thinking!  Maybe it's a howard-only combo because the only 2 places I can only find it there and a reference on jbctools.com.  So it seems to me you'd be much better off just getting the RMSE and adding the other options.  The only issue is the RMSE comes with the 2 channel control unit vs the 4 channel on the AM7000SMD.  I sent messages to both howard and janel asking if I can swap the 4chan for the 2chan and pay the difference but got no answer    I've read elsewhere, including on here, that others have had success doing this, but it may be from jbc directly.  You'd think they'd at least respond and say "no-can-do, sorry!" Oh well, that's customer service in the modern age... 

I'll try ordering from tonzof again.  It might be my network so I'll try cellular.  I block ads at my router so it could have something to do with it.  It wasn't allowing me to continue after putting in my address info in either Safari, Chrome, or Firefox.  Thinking about it now, it could also be because I'm in Canada (although they do ship to Canada).  I'll try my reshipper's address too and see if that works.  It looks like it'd be a nice toy, although most of my work doesn't require that much power.