T12 clone vs 888, practical test results

[KL27x]

To be fair, the current draw on the T12 clone tip I tested doesn't seem to go down with temp. The draw from cold start did not change, at all. Just a tad over 2.5A draw at 24V, from start to finish. The temp coefficient of the heater wire is practically zero. So while your Quicko clone has same voltage and cold resistance, the 951 (extrapolating from clone tip) could have 25 to 30% more power where it matters. The resistance doesn't seem to budge from effective 9.6ish. Of course this depends on what other losses are there. I suspect the 951 uses a TRIAC to switch power, no?

Also, compared to the higher power 888, the 951 will catch up a little at higher temp. I dunno what kind of temps people use for lead-free solder, but the higher the temp, the less powerful the 888 will get due to the positive temp coefficient of the 888 heater. It is possible that the 951 edges out the 888 in applied/effective power/thermal output at sufficiently high (but still practical) temps. But I wouldn't be inclined to believe it no matter how much more it costs or how many other people believe the 951 is a significant improvement (outside of the cold start time and handle heating).

[stj]

most people solder lead-free between 330 and 350

and i would be interested to see the pcb from a 951 because all the clones i'v seen use high freqency switched DC, they dont switch on the AC waveform.

[Marco]

Why not test this with a heatsink small enough that it doesn't just cause the iron to go full on? (I'm assuming it does.) The interesting part is the compliance and speed of the control loop, not what it does when control breaks down.

[KL27x]

@Marco, this heatsink is definitely small enough to test the thermal drop of the iron. It is definitely not even close to testing the max power output of either station. The board/heatsink is fully pre-heated by the time I dial in the final temp and take the measurements. I've already gone over the details. You can clearly see the heater LED on the Suhan and 888, and it is not "pegged" by a long shot. The handle of the 888 doesn't even get hot. Rough eyeball estimate is about 30% duty cycle on the heater. (888 with a slow and sufficient blink, Suhan with a hyperactive blink/intensity).

It would seem obvious that the T12 cartridge should theoretically be able to achieve at least a slightly lower thermal drop/gradient. It sounds good when you say it, anyway. But if there's a practical improvement, it is not evident in this test result. And personally, the way I understand the physics/thermodynamics, I think it is foolish to think there would be more than a marginal change.

Again, I think the speed of the test loop is somewhat of a false point to focus on. Why would anyone think opamps and comparators aren't FASTER than a microcontroller doing ADC reads?  And why would slowing this loop by way of increasing thermal mass be a con? The point of the iron is not to change from one temp to another very quickly. It's to not allow the temp to change. Other than saving cost of copper and decreasing the initial start time, there is no obvious benefit (to me) of decreasing thermal mass.

Smart PID:
Irons like the Blakjack have fast start algorithms. If the mass of the tip is known, you can get that tip to temp a little faster during start up because you know it is NOT touching anything in the interim. Once you start using the iron, the station does not directly know when you touch or remove the tip from a heatsink. Unless you are ok with some minor overshoot, you can't really do that much with software algorithms. And if you're ok with the overshoots, then what's the diff of just turning up the set temp a little? Until the sensor is accurate enough and the CPU fast enough to accurately estimate the current thermal load based on a tiny fraction of past history of temp and power consumption (say on the order of 10mS or less of past readings), any significant improvement via software algorithm of a soldering iron is mostly just marketing hype. In soldering, the thermal mass is not a constant and is not predictable. If an someone with more experience on PID wants to correct me, I'd be glad for the lesson. But a sou vid or reflow oven or water heater does not present the same challenges as does a soldering iron.

i would be interested to see the pcb from a 951 because all the clones i'v seen use high freqency switched DC, they dont switch on the AC waveform.

I am just guessing. AC has less electrolytic migration for longer heater life. Also easier to create low EMI. And transformer is more reliable than swtiching PSU in the long run. Most of the higher end stations run on AC. DC would be a downgrade, IMO. Clones use DC because switching PSU are very cheap, nowadays, and it's easier to implement on a small (cheap) board with no need for heatsink.

[Tarloth]

Sorry for revive this old post, I'm new to the forum but not to the electronics and please, forgive my bad english.

I'm very interested in this topic. I have a original Fx-888D Hakko and I very happy with it. When I compare with the 936's  clons from my friends,  this station performs better. Period.

In part I think that the tips are better (much better fit, finish and material) and heater has more power that clones. When I measure the total current consumed in same task by both, hakko delivers more power at first and less power to maintain, chinese copies deliver less power at first and more to maintain. I think that 888 has real 60 watts and copies 50 or much less.

But, If i use the original handle and tips with a good cloned drive, the results are similar to the real 888.

I believe the with correct handle (esd safe and good overall quality) and original cartridges  combined with a good DIY drive I can be near of a real Cartridge Solder Station.

I need soon a second handle with better ergonomics and smaller (if possible) than 888 handle. The economics in my country are very bad and one FX-251 plus taxes cost more that a regular person earn in two months! I can't afford now a brand new cartridge solder station and all small handles that I see has cartridge tips.

I'm not a fanatic of Hakko. JBC and PACE cartridge power (100+ watts!) would be very nice, but chinese market made zillions of Hakko clones and then it's easy to buy an acceptable T12 handle (perhaps change cable for better silicone and esd safe one) but never I'd did see a JBC clone handle in ebay.

I believe that Pace and JBC still uses AC in they irons and I really think that use AC straight from the transformer (Triacs)  it's better than PWM DC or rectified AC, but when I read the Hakko patents seems that T12 uses rectified AC.

Somebody with original FX-951 or similars can verified if T12 uses AC or uses rectified AC?

I really appreciate if somebody can confirm oscillogram from an original Hakko station. THANKS and sorry again for my bad english!

[KL27x]

heater has more power that clones.

The original 936 had only 24V transformer good for about 50W. The 888 has the 26V transformer for 70W rating. Many of the more modern clones also advertise 70W, now.
 

But, If i use the original handle and tips with a good cloned drive, the results are similar to the real 888.

I never tried that because all the clones I had have used a different connector. But this doesn't surprise me. Many people might assume the handpieces are essentially the same. But even if you put an original heater in a clone handpiece, I suspect more of the power would be used to heat up the handpiece vs the tip, due to the construction/materials. IMO, a lot of the value in the Hakko 888 is in the handpiece and the quality, selection, and low cost of the tips.

The T18/888 tips are also noticeably superior in thermal performance to the older 900M/936 tips. They figured out they could make the back of the tip shorter but thicker to improve the coupling to the heater/sensor without adding too much expensive copper.

Somebody with original FX-951 or similars can verified if T12 uses AC or uses rectified AC?

I really appreciate if somebody can confirm oscillogram from an original Hakko station. THANKS and sorry again for my bad english!

bump

[Terry01]

I use the 888 and think it's a great wee iron. I've never used one of the clone ones or one of the T-12's to compare.
I would recommend anyone to get the fx-888, just make sure it isn't a copy!

[Shock]

I'm not a fanatic of Hakko. JBC and PACE cartridge power (100+ watts!) would be very nice, but chinese market made zillions of Hakko clones and then it's easy to buy an acceptable T12 handle (perhaps change cable for better silicone and esd safe one) but never I'd did see a JBC clone handle in ebay.

I believe that Pace and JBC still uses AC in they irons and I really think that use AC straight from the transformer (Triacs)  it's better than PWM DC or rectified AC, but when I read the Hakko patents seems that T12 uses rectified AC.

In the new Pace ADS200 station (120W capable) for the heater supply they use ~30VDC pulses from an unbuffered mosfet bridge, so AC is rectified but not smoothed.

There are $200 JBC clones now as well but I wouldn't even bother, it's better to save up for the $200 genuine Pace if you want to run a station on the cheap. Pace tips are $11-13 for a USA made tip which makes China look expensive junk. Pace tends to be a little more expensive outside the US but still a 120W station.

As for Hakko FX-888 tips the genuine T18 outperforms the previous genuine 900M so I'd expect any clones to be varying grades inferior. Heaters to me don't matter so much as long as it can get up there but bad tips just suck and are time wasters.

[nanofrog]

...[snip]... bad tips just suck and are time wasters.

They're also a waste of money and cause lots of aggravation.

[stj]

since upgrading to a T12 based unit about 18 months ago, i'll never waste money on a removeable tip type iron again.

[Tarloth]

First of all, THANKS for all answers!

The original 936 had only 24V transformer good for about 50W. The 888 has the 26V transformer for 70W rating. Many of the more modern clones also advertise 70W, now.

Yes, but most of them LIES. If you measures the heater resistance never can pass 70 watts from transformer. The heater delivers 50 watts or least at maximum power. I'd tested some T12 clones and saw the same thing, all that I'd measured can deliver less power that original ones. I did't can measure Pace or JBC clones but I think that it's the same.

IMO, a lot of the value in the Hakko 888 is in the handpiece and the quality, selection, and low cost of the tips.

I totally agree, i believe that the station perse it's not exceptional, only robust and well made (not the interface!), the real goodness of this iron it's the handle+heater+tips. I did used the tips for years and they seems like new!

In the new Pace ADS200 station (120W capable) for the heater supply they use ~30VAC to an unbuffered mosfet bridge, so rectified but not smoothed.

Thanks for this very important data! Yes, the same that I see in the Hakko patents.

There are $200 JBC clones now as well but I wouldn't even bother

I agree, for few dollars more I buy real ones from another good brands!

... it's better to save up for the $200 genuine Pace if you want to run a station on the cheap....

Yes, I read carefully your post about you two solder stations and see the Dave review and I like it! If I live in USA probably buy Pace and if I live in Europe JBC.

My actual problem it's that everything that I import to my country pays almost $90-120 on shipping (good solder stations are heavy) and 50% in taxes for the price+shipping. A $250 station plus some cartridges (I use four or five diffferent shapes and sizes) plus shipping and taxes it's roughly $600 (250+50+100+200) and I can't afford it with this economical situation.

If I can buy only the cartridges this change everything. The shipping cost $15-25 and the final cost it's four times less. I have in my desk components for build any driver, toroid transformers and desk bases for the handles salvaged from previous stations. 

With Pace and JBC I not see copied handles in ebay. I can make one from aluminium in a CNC lathe and would be gorgeous but time demanding to prepare the program and resolve all issues for do only a one handle!. if I have not any other choice I do that, but seems like buy a "decent" T12 handle (with any connector)  make or buy a decent but cheap driver and buy original T12 cartridge tips would be a simplest and cheap solution.

since upgrading to a T12 based unit about 18 months ago, i'll never waste money on a removeable tip type iron again.

That's I see, most of forum members (include Dave :-) ) says that cartridge technology it's better and I believe that too.

I think that T18 series it's a very very good iron (at first 936 and for last few years 888d), my best circuits and developments (when I was young) was soldered with this solder tips  and had works always, but now I need a small handle like the cartridge solders use and prefer to add a cartridge solder station to the fx-888d. With cartridge system I thing that handle's quality it's less important than in 888.

[stj]

with cartridge systems the handle is just that,
i have seen people make their own with everything from lathes to 3d printers, and they all work the same, because they are just housings for a connector.

[Tarloth]

with cartridge systems the handle is just that,
i have seen people make their own with everything from lathes to 3d printers, and they all work the same, because they are just housings for a connector.

Thanks! I believe that too, only ergonomics and ESD precautions. I believe that "Some brand" Tip Cartridge system it's the way to go.

Now only I need to confirm if Hakko uses rectified (not filtered) AC in FX951 and decide between Pace, JBC and Hakko, the difference between cartridge cost it's great but not conclusive if I buy at first two or three only to try. It's a matter of how  easy to made/buy the handle is and power delivery.

[stj]

you could build the universal base,
then get whatever irons you want.

it's not a cheap build though!!
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7218

[nanofrog]

Now only I need to confirm if Hakko uses rectified (not filtered) AC in FX951 and decide between Pace, JBC and Hakko, the difference between cartridge cost it's great but not conclusive if I buy at first two or three only to try. It's a matter of how  easy to made/buy the handle is and power delivery.

A genuine Hakko FX-951 outputs 24VAC to the tips according to Hakko's specifications, so no rectification whatsoever.

FWIW, this is common for many years IME (i.e. Weller, Pace, JBC, Ersa, and Hakko).

[Tarloth]

you could build the universal base,
then get whatever irons you want.

it's not a cheap build though!!
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7218

I had read the entire post (50+ pages) and I really dislike the project. I respect all of his work and i'm grateful with him for open the design, but I think that it's over designed and some sections of design I not agree with the solution.

First, I not really need a "universal" solder station, eventually a need two different solder station for two handles.

If in any ocassion I need two different cartridge shapes (or sizes) at same times, I not like to connect and disconnect (I dislike even change the cartridge or the tip in T18). I need double command at same time. For example, if I need to use the standard T12 and the  micro iron from Hakko, they are two different hanles but rely in the same technology. Same exact controller.

Second, if I select a brand probably stay in this brand. For example, if I select Pace because  it's more convenient to me, then I make/buy two (or three) handles and then use all my cartridges when I need, not worry about which handle or which driver use. Why buy from different brands? KISS principle, all the accessories over the desk work together.

If I buy/make a "cheap" driver I can have two for few bucks  because I have just one free hand to solder. When one handle it's in standby the other draws power from a single transformer. Hakko do this with his unit's with two handles. It's easiest than change the cartridge and not so pricey. I prefer to use $15 in components and buy/make another driver that change tips all the time.  If I not need both at same time, then one handle and change cartridges, but again, why a universal driver if I only need a brand?

I think that user Arhi in DP prototype forum takes a smart approach few years ago. He did design a driver that works with different handles but populating or not some component in the board and use jumpers to change behaviour. based in which model of iron I have I can optimize the cost of the board.

I think that this is my best option and even I can reuse a thermostatic design that I did few years ago and change the software only.

[Tarloth]

A genuine Hakko FX-951 outputs 24VAC to the tips according to Hakko's specifications, so no rectification whatsoever.
FWIW, this is common for many years IME (i.e. Weller, Pace, JBC, Ersa, and Hakko).

Have you can measured it? If you measured it, I'm happy with this and use it. I used to think the same, my 888 uses AC and 936 uses AC and all that brands that I had measured uses AC, but I begun to doubt when I read the patent US 6,329,641 B1 from hakko that claims the control of unit using rectified AC. Shock measure his Pace station  and says that use the same but some user in a forum (that I not remember) says that JBC still use full AC. I prefer this, use AC, but If I make a controller need to know if rectify or not.

I really thanks all answers!

[nanofrog]

A genuine Hakko FX-951 outputs 24VAC to the tips according to Hakko's specifications, so no rectification whatsoever.
FWIW, this is common for many years IME (i.e. Weller, Pace, JBC, Ersa, and Hakko).

Have you can measured it? If you measured it, I'm happy with this and use it. I used to think the same, my 888 uses AC and 936 uses AC and all that brands that I had measured uses AC, but I begun to doubt when I read the patent US 6,329,641 B1 from hakko that claims the control of unit using rectified AC. Shock measure his Pace station  and says that use the same but some user in a forum (that I not remember) says that JBC still use full AC. I prefer this, use AC, but If I make a controller need to know if rectify or not.

I really thanks all answers!

I can't see why Hakko or any other major soldering station would lie about this (nothing more than a step-down transformer from rated mains to 24VAC). As per what you mention in terms of a patent, sure, there's a second tap on the transformer to feed the PCB/control board. This will pass through rectification at a bare minimum, but more likely through a buck converter of some sort to be sure the VDC output stays within an acceptable range for the PCB's control IC. 

That said, what goes to the control board is not the same as what's passed to the iron, let alone whether or not it's AC or DC. 

To be definitive, I don't have one to measure, but if you/we ask GreyWoolfe* nicely (he owns an FX-951), he might make a definitive measurement since you don't believe the manufacture's specs (not in their best interest to lie about this). 

BTW, keep in mind, Hakko is not a fly-by-night outfit looking to grab as much cash as they can in as short a period as possible through BS marketing. 

* FWIW I'll send him a PM and see if he's willing to prove to you Hakko's specs aren't a lie. 

[GreyWoolfe]

I measured a bit over 24 VAC.

[Tarloth]

Thanks Nanofrog! The only that worry me it's the wave at handle, that is if in the oscilloscope I see a full sine or a half sine. With this information I design all the circuits that I need and do the software or evaluate if a DIY driver it's apropiate or evaluate if a cheap chinese clon it's viable.

I really would like to feed the cartridge in the same conditions that was designed.

I measured a bit over 24 VAC.

THANKS for your answer!, GreyWoolfe you measure the signal or view it in the oscilloscope? If you view it, it's full sine or half sine i.e. full AC or rectified AC (rectified, not filtered).

Thanks again for your answers!

[GreyWoolfe]

Thanks Nanofrog! The only that worry me it's the wave at handle, that is if in the oscilloscope I see a full sine or a half sine. With this information I design all the circuits that I need and do the software or evaluate if a DIY driver it's apropiate or evaluate if a cheap chinese clon it's viable.

I really would like to feed the cartridge in the same conditions that was designed.

I measured a bit over 24 VAC.

THANKS for your answer!, GreyWoolfe you measure the signal or view it in the oscilloscope? If you view it, it's full sine or half sine i.e. full AC or rectified AC (rectified, not filtered).

Thanks again for your answers!

I measured with DMM.

[stj]

can your dmm give the frequency?
that should tell if it's rectified because the frequency would be line*2

[GreyWoolfe]

can your dmm give the frequency?
that should tell if it's rectified because the frequency would be line*2

No it can't, I used my HP 3466A, no frequency measurement.

[stj]

lol, Aneng for the win! 

[nanofrog]

can your dmm give the frequency?
that should tell if it's rectified because the frequency would be line*2

It's almost certainly directly from the transformer as most any other decent station is, so it'd be the same as mains. 60Hz in NA, 50Hz in your neck of the woods (and most of the planet in fact). 

Or is everyone going to continue to think Hakko like some fly-by-night, half-baked clone company that lies their butts off about the specs as they're only in it for a quick cash dash and vanish shortly thereafter? 

Seriously. If you believe Pace, Weller, and JBC's specs, then there's absolutely zero reason to doubt Hakko's. They've been around for decades, and are a go-to manufacturer for hand soldering/rework equipment.