T12 clone vs 888, practical test results

[GreyWoolfe]

can your dmm give the frequency?
that should tell if it's rectified because the frequency would be line*2

It's almost certainly directly from the transformer as most any other decent station is, so it'd be the same as mains. 60Hz in NA, 50Hz in your neck of the woods (and most of the planet in fact). 

Or is everyone going to continue to think Hakko like some fly-by-night, half-baked clone company that lies their butts off about the specs as they're only in it for a quick cash dash and vanish shortly thereafter? 

Seriously. If you believe Pace, Weller, and JBC's specs, then there's absolutely zero reason to doubt Hakko's. They've been around for decades, and are a go-to manufacturer for hand soldering/rework equipment.

I went back and checked with my Aneng and it is 60Hz measured at the transformer.  Trying to do additional measurements at the connector solder points, I apparently touched something I shouldn't have and am getting a C-E, soldering iron error.  So far no luck on a schematic and I am no good at reverse engineering.  The search continues.  Thankfully, not my only soldering station.

I have had Hakko equipment since 2006, starting with a 936.  Certainly not a fly by night company.  They have to be doing something right.  They are the most copied/faked/cloned soldering stations around.

[nanofrog]

I went back and checked with my Aneng and it is 60Hz measured at the transformer.  Trying to do additional measurements at the connector solder points, I apparently touched something I shouldn't have and am getting a C-E, soldering iron error.  So far no luck on a schematic and I am no good at reverse engineering.  The search continues.  Thankfully, not my only soldering station.

Oh crap. 

Have you tried plugging the iron back in to see if the error goes away (simple enough it's worth a shot IMHO  )?

You may have to contact Hakko and see if they'll give you a schematic (Weller did that for me when I requested it).

[GreyWoolfe]

I went back and checked with my Aneng and it is 60Hz measured at the transformer.  Trying to do additional measurements at the connector solder points, I apparently touched something I shouldn't have and am getting a C-E, soldering iron error.  So far no luck on a schematic and I am no good at reverse engineering.  The search continues.  Thankfully, not my only soldering station.

Oh crap. 

Have you tried plugging the iron back in to see if the error goes away (simple enough it's worth a shot IMHO  )?

You may have to contact Hakko and see if they'll give you a schematic (Weller did that for me when I requested it).

I tried that and tried different tips also.  I will contact Hakko and see what they will do for me.  Also have line on 2 power supplies and a wand, working for a good price from a seller I have dealt with before. 

[Tarloth]

It's almost certainly directly from the transformer as most any other decent station is, so it'd be the same as mains. 60Hz in NA, 50Hz in your neck of the woods (and most of the planet in fact). 

Or is everyone going to continue to think Hakko like some fly-by-night, half-baked clone company that lies their butts off about the specs as they're only in it for a quick cash dash and vanish shortly thereafter? 

Seriously. If you believe Pace, Weller, and JBC's specs, then there's absolutely zero reason to doubt Hakko's. They've been around for decades, and are a go-to manufacturer for hand soldering/rework equipment.

Nanofrog, I not Think that Hakko be a half quality company or something like a clone. I respect they a LOT and I used their stations for years without any complain.

Soon I will need a smallest and ergonomic handle and thought to use the "new" cartridge system, but with my 888 I can solder anything that I need, I haven't  any complaint with Hakko, instead of that, I consider Hakko a great company in relation to cost/quality of their products.

My only doubt here it's that exist one patent from Hakko that apparently apply to FX-951 (by date, that patent not sayd 951) that claims that the control over cartridge would be AC rectified.

In none site Hakko claims that they uses "rectified AC for 951", but I like to confirm which one uses the T12 cartridges in Hakko because I like to use the same thing that Hakko uses for the design and in his station.

In other stations they use full AC and I prefer too use full AC for avoid EMI concerns and probably electromigration and progressive damage to the thermocouple. But what about if Hakko did detected damages in the T12 cartridge because full AC  affected the TC (for changes in polarity) and uses rectified AC? Remember that T12 has the TC in series with the heater, my 888 station has a thermistor in heater but independent. Because I don't know which Hakko uses, I need to power the T12 cartridge with the same waveform that they use in the 951 (or 950 or equivalent for T12/T15) station.

Because of that I ask if somebody can see waveform in oscilloscope for confirm waveform, nothing more, I not say that Hakko lie, I say that I not know which waveform uses Hakko.

...  Trying to do additional measurements at the connector solder points, I apparently touched something I shouldn't have and am getting a C-E, soldering iron error.  So far no luck on a schematic and I am no good at reverse engineering.  The search continues.  Thankfully, not my only soldering station.

I'm so sorry GreyWoolfe!!!!! I feel guilty! I never wanted that to happen to anyone!

I have had Hakko equipment since 2006, starting with a 936.  Certainly not a fly by night company.  They have to be doing something right.  They are the most copied/faked/cloned soldering stations around.

I think the same, Hakko it's the most copied brand and I think that it's better than other in price/benefits in general. When I bought my first Hakko station here, JBC doesn't exists (in Argentina) and Pace was so expensive that was miles ahead of my budget (15-20 times expensive that Hakko!) I has use this first solder station for years and years without an issue. My first option now it's continue to use Hakko (but I not be a blind fanatic). Today I have not the budget to buy a complete station, but I can buy the original Tips (and maybe the handle) use it with a compatible driver and in the future I buy the real original station and use the cartridges that I buy now. I not need the complete "power" of 951, with something that works similar to my 888 and have a small and ergonomic handle I'm very happy.

If for a well based motive I need to switch to JBC or Pace ok, I haven't problem, but Hakko is my first choice.   

[Tarloth]

I tried that and tried different tips also.  I will contact Hakko and see what they will do for me.  Also have line on 2 power supplies and a wand, working for a good price from a seller I have dealt with before. 

Crap!!!!! I hope everything gets resolved soon.

Do you have a seller that sells good used (or cloned) handles? I would be interesting to me if it accept to sell overseas.

[nanofrog]

I tried that and tried different tips also.  I will contact Hakko and see what they will do for me.

Good luck.  Hopefully they'll get you sorted (decent post sale support from what I've heard).

My only doubt here it's that exist one patent from Hakko that apparently apply to FX-951 (by date, that patent not sayd 951) that claims that the control over cartridge would be AC rectified.

Do you have a link to the patent info?

Unless it's portable for field use, there's no reason to use DC. So this ^ doesn't make any sense to me. 

But what about if Hakko did detected damages in the T12 cartridge because full AC  affected the TC (for changes in polarity) and uses rectified AC? Remember that T12 has the TC in series with the heater...[snip].

It's not a problem. JBC uses the same technique (heater coil is the thermocouple; it's cut and the two pieces are bonded together with a dissimilar metal to create the TC), and they're using AC as well.

Because of that I ask if somebody can see waveform in oscilloscope for confirm waveform, nothing more, I not say that Hakko lie, I say that I not know which waveform uses Hakko.

I suspect it checks the TC at the zero crossing point, then applies power if needed. JBC does it this way, and it's an elegant solution IMHO.

When I bought my first Hakko station here, JBC doesn't exists (in Argentina) and Pace was so expensive that was miles ahead of my budget (15-20 times expensive that Hakko!).

If for a well based motive I need to switch to JBC or Pace ok, I haven't problem, but Hakko is my first choice.

How expensive is the new Pace ADS200 to your door?

It's much less expensive than their other stations, their tips are excellent, and priced similarly to the T12/T15 series from Hakko. The iron is comfortable to use per owners, nor does it get hot despite being made from aluminum.

Performance wise, it will beat the FX-951 as it has a higher output (120W instead of just 70W for the FX-951). There's tips that can use that power as well that just aren't available for the Hakko. At least in the US, it's very similarly priced to the FX-951 so is a better choice at this point in time.

So I'd recommend shifting your sights to the Pace instead (seem to recall someone else made this recommendation as well).

[Tarloth]

Do you have a link to the patent info?

Of course! https://patents.google.com/patent/US6329641B1

Unless it's portable for field use, there's no reason to use DC. So this ^ doesn't make any sense to me. 

Not DC of course!, rectified AC that it's a complete different beast in noise generation when is switched to control the heater. The fourier transform of a DC PWM it's awful in armonics and generate a lot of noise.

It's not a problem. JBC uses the same technique (heater coil is the thermocouple; it's cut and the two pieces are bonded together with a dissimilar metal to create the TC), and they're using AC as well.

I agree, I think that it's no problem with full AC, but Shock see the waveform of his PACE and see rectified AC....Why? In the patent I see rectified AC, that bother me... WHY?? Before reading the patent I would have bet that they used AC!

I suspect it checks the TC at the zero crossing point, then applies power if needed. JBC does it this way, and it's an elegant solution IMHO.

Yes they see the TC at zero point crossing, it's a fact.

How expensive is the new Pace ADS200 to your door?

Local Pace dealer not have ADS200, but if I buy in USA and import to my country it's approx the same price that Hakko.   

It's much less expensive than their other stations, their tips are excellent, and priced similarly to the T12/T15 series from Hakko.

In fact, almost the same to me

The iron is comfortable to use per owners, nor does it get hot despite being made from aluminum.

In photographs I like the iron handle, seems nice and slender and I like the anodized aluminium more than plastics, but never did use it. Nevertheless I believe that it's good. JBC 245 handle (I believe was it that I try in a expo) it's very comfortable (superb) and I tried fm-2028 (in same expo) and it's very comfortable too. FM-2032 it's ideal but not offer some point shapes that I need, but it's a point favor to Hakko that the same station it's compatible with two different systems. I don't know it's something similar happens with Pace or JBC but I think that they resolved it too.
 

Performance wise, it will beat the FX-951 as it has a higher output (120W instead of just 70W for the FX-951). There's tips that can use that power as well that just aren't available for the Hakko. At least in the US, it's very similarly priced to the FX-951 so is a better choice at this point in time.

Yes, I suppose that PACE or JBC it's a better election because they have more power. I think the defects that Dave set in his video were corrected because it seemed like a software problem and not quality problem. Actually I not need more power than delivered from my 888 but it's interesting knows that it exist if would be necessary.

This is the only point that make me doubtet to continues with hakko, but, as I wrote in the first post, in favor to Hakko exist zillions of clons/counterfeits/compatible handles for nothing more than few dollars that permit me to use one of them with original cartridges and in the future buy the real 951 when economy will goes better. Even crappy T12 clones would be usefull to test a DIY driver (avoiding burn an original tip) and leave them aside until they are needed to melt plastic or engrave wood for a kid's school craft where one does never use an original tip :-).

With Pace or JBC I need to buy the original one or make one DIY and I think that clone tips are inexistents.

To sum up:

Points in favor to Hakko: I trust in the brand and they products, have a ton of different points and has two different handles for same standard and exist a lot of counterfeits parts to faciliate the construction and adjust of my DIY driver, use it with original tips meanwhile and in a while buy the original one.

Points in favor to JBC and Pace a lot more power.

Point in favor to Pace, cost less than JBC.

So I'd recommend shifting your sights to the Pace instead (seem to recall someone else made this recommendation as well).

I evaluating this at this moment, I'm not a blind fan of Hakko, but for something it's the brand more cloned, maybe because it is the most sought after brand and not the better? Sure, seems that JBC it's better (but pricey) and Pace it's comparable in price and seems better.  I don't believe that would be a marketing issue, here in Argentina Pace was since the beginning the most promoted brand and Hakko never promote his product but few people has Pace and a lot original Hakko.
I don't know really.

[Tarloth]

A year ago in other post KL27X ask to Pigrew ...

I'm curious. If you have a genuine Hakko FX950/51, have you noticed if the T12 is powered by AC/TRIAC or from DC/FET?

And Pigrew answer that he sees a Fet and remits to Greywolfe post. This implies rectified AC isn't it?

[nanofrog]

I agree, I think that it's no problem with full AC, but Shock see the waveform of his PACE and see rectified AC....Why? In the patent I see rectified AC, that bother me... WHY?? Before reading the patent I would have bet that they used AC!

Then that's how they've increased the mains frequency in order to shorten the sense & heat cycle. It would certainly allow for faster response and closer temp regulation.

Local Pace dealer not have ADS200, but if I buy in USA and import to my country it's approx the same price that Hakko.

I'd go with the Pace if it were me, even if you have to import it yourself.

Assuming you can of course, as although TEquipment will sell abroad, I recall a recent post they don't ship everywhere in South America due to too many lost packages in the nation mentioned (just can't recall which one, and there may well be others). So this issue alone may dictate which brand you end up with (availability issues  )

I've sent stuff to Brazil, and the recipiant explained there's a lot of loss/theft there too.

FM-2032 it's ideal but not offer some point shapes that I need, but it's a point favor to Hakko that the same station it's compatible with two different systems. I don't know it's something similar happens with Pace or JBC but I think that they resolved it too.

The FM-2032 is a micro iron meant for working under a microscope.

My current setup is Weller (built around the WD series), and have both a general purpose iron and a micro iron. I haven't used the micro iron in years, and I do have a stereo microscope. You'll find that manufacturers provide specialized tips for SMD work.

The vast majority of the time in my case however is done with a hoof/bevel. For IC's, I just select leaded packages and drag solder; you just need enough flux. You don't even have to change tips to pull bridges. For tacking in 30AWG bodge wires, I'll use a fine point bent conical.

If you're not all that familiar with this, look for the soldering tutorials by John Gammell on YouTube. He's a professional instructor, so no bad habits and such you'd find in a lot of others.
 

Yes, I suppose that PACE or JBC it's a better election because they have more power. I think the defects that Dave set in his video were corrected because it seemed like a software problem and not quality problem. Actually I not need more power than delivered from my 888 but it's interesting knows that it exist if would be necessary.

There was updated firmware released for the ADS200. In regard to the additional power, it comes in handy with large ground planes, tabs, and connectors for example. Most of the time you probably won't use all of it, but it's good to have when you do (no more tip stuck to the pad situations when a lesser iron hits it's limits).

This is the only point that make me doubtet to continues with hakko, but, as I wrote in the first post, in favor to Hakko exist zillions of clons/counterfeits/compatible handles for nothing more than few dollars that permit me to use one of them with original cartridges and in the future buy the real 951 when economy will goes better. Even crappy T12 clones would be usefull to test a DIY driver (avoiding burn an original tip) and leave them aside until they are needed to melt plastic or engrave wood for a kid's school craft where one does never use an original tip :-).

You won't get a true apples to apples comparison by using a clone vs. the genuine article though. Completely different electronics inside and almost certainly an undersized transformer.

But they are inexpensive, and they work (thinking of the Asian branded T12 stations, not an FX-951 clone). You may have to figure out something for a stand, as I doubt any of the irons they're using would fit the one that came with your FX-888.

With Pace or JBC I need to buy the original one or make one DIY and I think that clone tips are inexistents.

The tips for the ADS200 are just way too new, so definitely Pace only. But they're inexpensive (~$11 - 13 per for common profiles).

Given JBC's pricing, I'd stay away. They're ~$30 per for common shapes, and there's lifespan issues according to some owners here in the forum.

[Tarloth]

Then that's how they've increased the mains frequency in order to shorten the sense & heat cycle. It would certainly allow for faster response and closer temp regulation.

Mmmmm, from point of view of the heater power characterization (watts per fraction of second transmitted)  full wave AC and full rectified AC it's the same and from control point of view exist the same number of cross zero point's to measure the TC.

The difference it's that in rectified I can use any transistor with full blocked of power, and with full AC I need triac (or a bridge) and some triac permits some noise passing  near the zero point. If you not evaluate just at zero maybe see some noise. But use is rectified AC it's a bit noise than use full AC (but lot less noise than DC of course!).

If the point zero it's evaluated with an optocoupler you need to full rectify the AC that come to the opto LED or use an opto with two anti paralell LED and, in both cases, delay half the time of zero pulse to measure the TC. It's good to use an opto because it's isolated but you need to manage this time at software if you like a clean TC measurement. With triac it's mandatory, with transistor you can stop to conduce when the pulse starts and measure but you pay the penality of some low level high frequency noise (but is negligible if the heater induction it's low).

If you sense zero point with an resistor divider and comparator you not need to wait, zero is zero, but you not isolate from transformer AC (some comparator are isolators but pricey) . 

I'd go with the Pace if it were me, even if you have to import it yourself.

Assuming you can of course, as although TEquipment will sell abroad, I recall a recent post they don't ship everywhere in South America due to too many lost packages in the nation mentioned (just can't recall which one, and there may well be others). So this issue alone may dictate which brand you end up with (availability issues  )

I've sent stuff to Brazil, and the recipiant explained there's a lot of loss/theft there too.

That's it's a very good point. Here if I use postage with international tracking the package arrives perfect, but simple postage would be lost for months. I receive packages from china without tracking with a delay of eight months!. Courier it's one week at most. When I buy with DHL o FEDEX in USA, England or Germany I receive the package three to five days later. But courier it's pricey for two or three tips! I will ask to TEequipment if they send to Argentina and how. Good point to decide!

The FM-2032 is a micro iron meant for working under a microscope.

I need to work under microscope! If not, I would still use 888 until I have more money and buy the fx-951/ADS200/Some JBC for pleasure ;-) . For work under microscope I need a small (more ergonomic really) handle than mine and less distance to the point from my fingers.

FM-202X it's shorter than FX-8801 but FM-2032 it's shorter than both. TD-200 from Pace it's shorter than JBC equivalent (I think) but I believe that both are longer than 2032.

My current setup is Weller (built around the WD series), and have both a general purpose iron and a micro iron. I haven't used the micro iron in years, and I do have a stereo microscope. You'll find that manufacturers provide specialized tips for SMD work.

Yes, it's true,  I not need to use microscope for chips. I soldered they for years by hand and in reflow oven but I.m now designed a few PCB where I need to use very small passive components 0201 or smallest when exist,  and prefer to solder by hand under microscope. I can solder it with the 8801 and the most small tips, but I prefer to have smallest and more ergonomic handle.
 

You won't get a true apples to apples comparison by using a clone vs. the genuine article though. Completely different electronics inside and almost certainly an undersized transformer.

Yes I know, but with smallest component, power it's not an issue (anyway it's not an issue now with the 888) and if I use good toroidal transformer the limits would be at software level.

But they are inexpensive, and they work (thinking of the Asian branded T12 stations, not an FX-951 clone). You may have to figure out something for a stand, as I doubt any of the irons they're using would fit the one that came with your FX-888.

Yes, I see that and I love that Pace make their tips at a very low cost, very interesting price and a lot of options in heat transference and quality (diamond series for example). Stand isn't a problem, I can make a new one without problem or use (if fit) someone of the previous stations.

...Given JBC's pricing, I'd stay away. They're ~$30 per for common shapes, and there's lifespan issues according to some owners here in the forum.

I not knew about lifespan of JBC, a huge point against JBC. I thought that JBC was better than Hakko and Pace in all aspects :-(


THANKS AGAIN, I'm refined my search

[Shock]

I just looked at my ADS200 with the scope and it's 30V pulses at 100Hz (I'm on 240V 50Hz). The cartridges have two contacts, K type thermocouple in series and measure about 4.2 Ohms at roughly room temp. The cartridge barrel is earthed/grounded. So seems to add up if I do a quick and dirty power calculation. The heater is no way seeing full duty, most of the time from what I can see it's barely being worked at all.

The advantages really with the Pace, the iron is super comfy, cool, nonslip, accurate, powerful, quick heating, short working distance, no offsets or calibration, both micro and high mass tips (0.2mm to 8mm so far), great tip life and price, tweezers coming. On the station side of things there is going to be another firmware update based on feedback out soon, more configurable, single degree adjustable, no more large temp bounce.

[Shock]

FM-202X it's shorter than FX-8801 but FM-2032 it's shorter than both. TD-200 from Pace it's shorter than JBC equivalent (I think) but I believe that both are longer than 2032.

The Pace TD-200 iron (the one that comes with the ADS200) is 30mm from the handle edge to were the tip begins, identical to FM-2032. I don't know all the JBC irons but it's a noticeable shorter tip to work distance from a few I've seen.

With the Pace iron you can also grip right up on the very edge of the handle as well, it doesn't seem to get uncomfortable with the large tips either.

[nanofrog]

Shock: Do you have issues with flux spatter from cored solder singeing your fingers at that short a distance?

I ask as I still get splattered on occasion with my Weller irons (45 & 55mm for the WMP and WSP80 respectively). And although it's uncomfortable when it happens, I wouldn't trade the shorter distances as the additional degree of control is worth the compromise IMHO.  Just not sure if the extra loss of say 25mm makes it that much worse or not. 

If it's particularly bad, I'll put on a nitrile glove (I strap in as it were, so ESD's not been an issue). 

[Tarloth]

I just looked at my ADS200 with the scope and it's 30V pulses at 100Hz (I'm on 240V 50Hz).

THANKS!!!! Yes, I'm in 220v/50hz too, full rectified AC confirmed to Pace. Great!

The cartridges have two contacts, K type thermocouple in series and measure about 4.2 Ohms at roughly room temp. The cartridge barrel is earthed/grounded.

Same design that in Hakko (different TC only), TC series with heater resistance and ground to exterior tip covering (for ESD)?

The heater is no way seeing full duty, most of the time from what I can see it's barely being worked at all.

Of course, maybe at first 5 seconds after on.

The advantages really with the Pace, the iron is super comfy, cool, nonslip, accurate, powerful, quick heating, short working distance, no offsets or calibration, both micro and high mass tips (0.2mm to 8mm so far), great tip life and price, tweezers coming.

Agree, I see the same in the pictures of product. I'm more comfortable with full aluminium handle than plastic.

On the station side of things there is going to be another firmware update based on feedback out soon, more configurable, single degree adjustable, no more large temp bounce.

Interesting, it's upgradeable in by the user or it's necessary to send to Pace?

The Pace TD-200 iron (the one that comes with the ADS200) is 30mm from the handle edge to were the tip begins, identical to FM-2032. I don't know all the JBC irons but it's a noticeable shorter tip to work distance from a few I've seen.

That it's a surprise! In specs I read 1.8 inches from handle to cartridge point, that is 45 mm approx., 30mm it's great, the same length that micro from Hakko! Thats are very good news!

[Shock]

Do you have issues with flux spatter from cored solder singeing your fingers at that short a distance?

I mostly rework with rosin core SnPb so that probably makes a difference. But do I get spat on and burned? Yes but I don't pay it much attention. I think the longest continual session I've had since getting the two ADS200 is a couple of hours and it wasn't even on my mind. I probably burned my other hand more grabbing hot PCBs and components, either that or I choose to forget hehehe.

I did notice though the shorter tip and handle it's easier to keep the iron in your hand while moving things around.

[stj]

decent solder does not spit,
yours sounds like the flux-content is too high or badly formulated.

i have not had solder with spitting flux for maybe 20years!!

[Shock]

Same design that in Hakko (different TC only), TC series with heater resistance and ground to exterior tip covering (for ESD)?

From the manual:

These systems all meet or exceed the ANSI requirements for Soldered Electrical and Electronic Assemblies, J-STD-001.  Additionally they meet or exceed the requirements for electrostatic discharge set forth by ANSI/ESD S20.20.  Compliance with both of these standards is  ensured by testing up to 50 MHz using the methodology described in ANSI/ESD S13.1 2015.

Tip Temperature Range of 177 to 454°C (350 to 850°F).
Digital Readout Resolution: ±1° (°C or °F)
Tip Temperature Stability: ±1.1°C (2°F) when idle.
Temperature Accuracy: Meets or exceeds ANSI/J-STD-001

Looks like they updated the manual for the new firmware coming out.

Of course, maybe at first 5 seconds after on.

Many of the standard tips heat up in 3 seconds, the larger high performance ones take a little longer. You would be surprised at actually how little work the heater is doing.

Tip changes are 5 seconds and on par with JBC, however you don't need to use the stand to extract your tips or press it in twice to seat it, Pace use their Tip Tool instead.

Interesting, it's upgradeable in by the user or it's necessary to send to Pace?

Pace sends out a pop in replacement firmware with a chip puller.

[GreyWoolfe]

You may have to contact Hakko and see if they'll give you a schematic (Weller did that for me when I requested it).

Hakko wouldn't give me a schematic but gave me a copy of the manual to look at the troubleshooting guide .  However, I did score 2 power supplies and a wand in working order for $172 shipped.  If the original power supply is toasted, I have 2 supplies and 2 wands.  If the wand is toasted, I have 1 wand and 3 power supplies.  This means I will flog one of the power supplies on the Blog and see if anyone bites for a spare.  I also might be able to do some comparison checking and fix the wand.  Fortunately or unfortunately, the box won't arrive until Monday and I will be on vacation in Texas then.

Mrs GreyWoolfe and I are really looking forward to getting out of town.

[nanofrog]

I mostly rework with rosin core SnPb so that probably makes a difference.

Same here; I use 63/37 or 62/36/2 for what I do. I didn't think the alloy mattered, but I guess I should have mentioned this. 

FWIW, I do have a small roll of lead-free from AIM (Sn100c), but I've only used it for testing since I got it 3 years ago. 

decent solder does not spit,
yours sounds like the flux-content is too high or badly formulated.

i have not had solder with spitting flux for maybe 20years!!

FWIW, I've a mix of Kester (0.031"), Multicore (0.010"), RadioShack (0.022" for the 62/36/2, and 0.062" for the 60/40 which is very rarely used, and only to tin wire), and AIM (0.020"). They don't spit all that often, but do on occasion, with it getting worse the smaller the diameter you go IME.

I can't be certain who made the RadioShack 62/36/2 @ 0.022" as there were multiple suppliers (older stuff from the US, the later from Taiwan IIRC).

As per needing gloves, I've run into this working with the Multicore (this stuff is very fine). It's also used under closer quarters under a microscope using my micro iron, which probably doesn't help matters.

Hakko wouldn't give me a schematic but gave me a copy of the manual to look at the troubleshooting guide .  However, I did score 2 power supplies and a wand in working order for $172 shipped.  If the original power supply is toasted, I have 2 supplies and 2 wands.  If the wand is toasted, I have 1 wand and 3 power supplies.  This means I will flog one of the power supplies on the Blog and see if anyone bites for a spare.  I also might be able to do some comparison checking and fix the wand.  Fortunately or unfortunately, the box won't arrive until Monday and I will be on vacation in Texas then.

In regard to the assistance Hakko is willing to supply, that sucks. 

In regard to a damaged wand/iron/handle, I can't see how that would go wrong, as it's quite literally nothing more than a connector stuffed up into the back-end of a plastic stick. Zero electronics.

But with a working power unit, you'd be able to trace out what's gone wrong with the existing unit and possibly be able to fix it (so long as it's not the main IC; it's common enough, but you'd need to be able to program a new one should it be the issue*).

* Though it would be a perfect excuse to acquire a new toy to do just that. 

[KL27x]

you'd need to be able to program a new one should it be the issue*).

* Though it would be a perfect excuse to acquire a new toy to do just that. 

Fat chance that the firmware would be made available by Hakko. If the microcontroller died, the board is going to be impractical for anything but the garbage for most humans. Maybe the creator of the Unisolder would "just" whip up a custom modified firmware to fix one broken 951x... if he didn't value his time. Hopefully it is not the micro.

Greywoolfe: There is a very good chance that your station is fixable, and I bet you would receive a lot of assistance if/when you had time to post some pics. I doubt it would be a problem with the PSU, though. If the display lights up and says C-E, all the power is good, most likely. The 5V rail is powered from a 12/24V (probably 12V, single diode rectifier) rail that is tapped and rectified off the 24V transformer. So if it shows anything, the power rails are most probably all working. But first step would still be to scope the 5 and 12V rail. If there is a dead component or a short you might see an artifact/noise at 60Hz or whatnot. If the thing is fixable, it will be some transistor or small support part that is toasted on the main PCB. I would suspect the zero cross detection circuit, the sensor reading opamp circuit, the TRIAC driver and/or the TRIAC, itself. There is probably a thermistor in the handle of a genuine 951, but I don't think that would be easily damaged. But if you unscrewed the handpiece to get a point to probe, perhaps there could be a loose connection in there.

The difference it's that in rectified I can use any transistor with full blocked of power, and with full AC I need triac (or a bridge) and some triac permits some noise passing  near the zero point.

The main reason that full wave is preferable is EMI/noise that the device creates on the mains. As long as you are letting full waves through, there will be very little EMI to cause issues with your other devices plugged in on the same circuit. But there is theoretically also the issue of electrolytic migration of the heater/sensor metals. Using balanced AC, there should be very little. DC or rectified AC could theoretically cause migration of metal over time. Whether or not this would remotely be a limiting factor of cartridge life, who knows. There is always someone discussing the efficiency of a FET, particularly when switching at near zero. But a 20W light bulb draws more power than what's needed to solder, on average. Power efficiency is pretty much moot, IMO, unless talking about a battery powered iron.

[nanofrog]

Fat chance that the firmware would be made available by Hakko.

I wasn't talking about GreyWoolfe getting the code from Hakko, but rather extracting it from one of the fully functional power units he'll soon have on-hand once his package arrives. 

That said, I thought I was was clear in my previous post it's most likely a lot simpler, and even though Hakko isn't willing to offer him relevant schematics, should be quite doable via comparative measurements of a known working unit vs. his current unit (just as would be extracting the firmware in an absolute worst-case-scenario from a working unit).

My apologies that this wasn't explicitly clear (I thought it was). 

[Tarloth]

Hi! If the unit show something inteligible in the segmented LED probably the uC it's ok and I think that the problem it's at the opamp of the TC o thermistor. C-E it's a problem "in the iron" and I think that board can't measure the TC or thermistor and handle. Maybe a short circuit between 30 volts and thermistor pin blow up the opamp that reads that resistor.

Greywolfe, I really sorry about this accident! But in this moments I believe if the makers will be publish a copy of the schematics of electronics tools (years ago all serious makers did that), everybody can diagnose and repair the problem byself in seconds! Somebody that have one of this station isn't a person to send a "Copy of Manual". Point against all the sellers.

The main reason that full wave is preferable is EMI/noise that the device creates on the mains.

Yes, I wrote this in a previous post, in that post I talking about the difference in the circuit to measure the TC only. I prefer AC, but seems that it's not used anymore.

[Tarloth]

Pace sends out a pop in replacement firmware with a chip puller.

It's a point in favor of Pace because it's responsible about their products and this is VERY GOOD, but at same has three big point against (to me)

* Launch to world a product not sufficiently tested.I saw in this forum complaints about delays in deliver in cartridge tips and stations for errors detected after launching. I thought that all issues were corrected today but some new firmware would be launched with more "enhanceds"?. This is not a wifi router, it's a tool, one month more of tests in house before launch or a rented user test (maybe experts from this forum?)  could been eliminated almost all the errors that I see related.

* Send a new memory chip was cool 20 years behind but not now. Or the maker test exhaustively their producto until any error would be eliminated (almost 99%) o includes a method to upgrade the firmware easily. Any modern microcontroller has any form of firmware update without use a special programmer. A buyer of this unit (and not a cheap hakko counterfeit) surely knows how update a firmware.

( By the way, which microcontroller they uses that need a separate memory? Or they change the complete microcontroller? t's not a complaint, only curiosity)

* Overseas buyer, my case, at least until I did read this about the firmware that worries me. I had been convinced to buy Pace before reading this post! But I know by a lot of experience that makers in general don't send physical upgrades outside USA. It's very expensive and in some cases had regulations against this. If the local dealer it's authorized then they send it, and it's ok, but most of cases exists problems with models that are selled in one region and not in other and a unit imported from USA not necessarily is supported by a local representative. Years ago we have problems with Agilent oscilloscopes buyed in USA with an error and local representative (or Agilent) never recognized here the problem! Even I had a similar problem with Nikon and in both cases we need to send the product again to USA.

At this point I have two options. Wait for one year after the last firmware upgrade until virtually all the bugs was cleaned or ask the local representative to import it to Argentina (I just sent them an email to see what they say about this) and also ask if they assure me that it will provide "immediate" technical service if something happens (two weeks it's ok, more not). I have read here problems with JBC stations in European users that were sent their stations to repair (in warranty periode) for a common error and two months later had not yet been returned!

I will meditate this.

[Shock]

Lets not get too excited. You are talking old news, a handful of units had a tolerance problem, immediately corrected before it was even distributed worldwide. The current shipped firmware 1.2 is stable, I know because I'm using it. A firmware update is that, it's an update. This station only started shipping a few months ago. Pace has excellent customer service and would do their best to get a firmware to you if required.

Pace also appears to have two distributors in Argentina
https://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors/south_america#ARGENTINA

As for the brains of the operation it's an Atmel 8 bit micro and firmware is on the same chip. The advantage is if the micro dies some how, it's easily replaced and even easier if you have an old firmware revision laying around. You will be back up in seconds, on other brands good luck.

[KL27x]

I wasn't talking about GreyWoolfe getting the code from Hakko, but rather extracting it from one of the fully functional power units he'll soon have on-hand once his package arrives. 

I'm genuinely confused at this. Why would Greywoolfe receive a microcontroller from Hakko when he purchased what he describes as 2 PSU's and 1 new handle per his post? But even more puzzling, even if "PSU" includes the brainbox, why would you think Hakko will use microcontrollers without enabling read protection? I wouldn't think this is likely enough to even try, unless the company publishes the hex or source code. And in that case, I would download it from their website. And if these 2 boards he purchased are "fully functional" why would he buy a hardware programmer to extract the firmware hex and flash a new chip and replace that chip on his existing board... when he would already have not one but two completely functional replacement boards to swap for the faulty one?

Pace ADS200 is a good example, here. If they didn't mind to share their code, they would just host the latest firmware on their site. Not all their customers would have the ability to use it. But may people could, and it would reduce their costs. The reason they send you an entire chip at considerable time and cost is so they can keep their firmware proprietary. For all the talk about how easy it is to crack a protected chip with decapping and whatnot, I think the time and $$, and frankly the illegality of seeking black market services and doing this, is still a significant deterrent. No one would do that without intent to sell clones to make money... which means they would have money for Pace's lawyers to come after. Whereas any dumbass friend of a friend who gets emailed a copy of the firmware can end up publishing it online for shigs and tiggles. And that dude could be completely broke. Even if he makes not a cent, this could damage Pace's brand with lots of little fish too small to go after, making and even selling subpar stations with what may eventually turn out to be buggy, subpar code, damaging the brand. Barring very simple firmware for micros that do basic functions to replace multiple logic chips, or the like, I don't suspect it will be very common for a company to leave a micro unlocked unless they are hosting the latest firmware on their website. Especially for something so simple and with no moving parts, like a soldering station.