Author Topic: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results  (Read 36297 times)

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Offline nanofrog

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2018, 11:06:55 am »
I'm genuinely confused at this. Why would Greywoolfe receive a microcontroller from Hakko when he purchased what he describes as 2 PSU's and 1 new handle per his post? But even more puzzling, even if "PSU" includes the brainbox, why would you think Hakko will use microcontrollers without enabling read protection?
PSU = main power unit is how I interpreted it.

As per copying the code from a working unit, flashing a new chip, and installing it in a unit with a dead uC, it would allow it to be kept as a spare, or in this case, sold or traded.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2018, 12:36:18 pm »
What KL27x means is most prudent companies tend to fuse/lock their code so there is no way to dump it. I'm not familiar with Hakkos PCBs but having been counterfeited they should be quite weary of leaving code that can be easily dumped and run on a counterfeit controller or be debugged.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 12:38:55 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 189, 87V, 117, 112   >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2018, 02:28:40 pm »
Since the talk is about soldering...  8) Have anybody ever tested the FX-8805 wand with T19 tips on a FX-888D?

Also, what is the difference between T18 and T19 tips? A very small graph on the FX-888D/FX-889 compatible wands FX-8801/FX8805 shows a slight edge for the T19 in heating time, but I wonder if it has better thermal capacity.


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Offline Shock

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2018, 02:43:45 pm »
Since the talk is about soldering...

The 936 had the 907 or 908 iron (or you could run a 907 conversion) and had 900M and 900L (L for large) tips so I assume this is the newer equivalent T18 and then the T19 which have more thermal capacity. Pricey though at almost $13 a tip.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 189, 87V, 117, 112   >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 
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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2018, 02:53:30 pm »
There is probably a thermistor in the handle of a genuine 951, but I don't think that would be easily damaged. But if you unscrewed the handpiece to get a point to probe, perhaps there could be a loose connection in there.

There is a thermistor in the handle.  I stuck some probes on it and measured about 24K\$\Omega\$.  I didn't apply heat to it yet to see if it changes.  I don't know if that is a proper measurement as I can't read the part number, it is behind one of the solder tabs.  I will have to remove it to get the part number to look up the datasheet.  I will try to do a continuity test on the pins/wires of the wand after work tonight as well as get the part number.  I don't like getting wrapped up in doing something and then work gets in the way and pulls me off of what I am doing, the company does expect me to earn my paycheck. :palm:  I will try to post some pics of the board.  I have a decent camera but no macro lens so I will have play around to try to get the best pics I can.
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Offline Tarloth

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #80 on: September 11, 2018, 04:47:55 pm »
...I stuck some probes on it and measured about 24K\$\Omega\$.  I didn't apply heat to it yet to see if it changes. ...

In two places I read that it's a 6K8 thermistor

Since the talk is about soldering...  8) Have anybody ever tested the FX-8805 wand with T19 tips on a FX-888D?

Yes, a friend have it and work without problem or any change, Hakko says that are compatible https://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fx8801_8805.html

What KL27x means is most prudent companies tend to fuse/lock their code so there is no way to dump it. I'm not familiar with Hakkos PCBs but having been counterfeited they should be quite weary of leaving code that can be easily dumped and run on a counterfeit controller or be debugged.

As far as I know, counterfeits and clones uses a different microcontroller , different brand even. I think that software in chinese ones have nothing to do with the hakko software, but I'm not sure of course. 
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2018, 05:57:55 pm »
...I stuck some probes on it and measured about 24K\$\Omega\$.  I didn't apply heat to it yet to see if it changes. ...
In two places I read that it's a 6K8 thermistor

Well, I guess that it is bad, maybe.  I will get a part number and double check before I order a replacement.  Hopefully, that means the power supply survived.

EDIT: removed the thermistor.  It says 104 on it.  A google search of 104 thermistor says it could be 100K or 10K. |O  It measures 3.2 mm.  I will have to measure the thermistor in the new wand to be sure.  I will check pin to pin later to see if anything is open.  I also didn't realize that I was measuring the thermistor with the wand connected.  I measured it in hand and it was 3M2R.  I'm sure it is bad!  I'm betting the wand is salvageable if I can get the right value.

EDIT again--forgot the pic I took.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 08:34:04 pm by GreyWoolfe »
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Offline Tarloth

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2018, 07:50:55 pm »
I believe that it's 10K at 25 centigrade degrees and 6.8K when it's measured with the iron ON or in the hand (at 34-36 degrees). This confirm that I did read in other forums.
https://www.littelfuse.com/products/temperature-sensors/leaded-thermistors/glass-encapsulated-thermistors/do-35-ul-recognized-usug1000.aspx

The TR in the link has a max power rating of 20mW. At 30Volt any value under 50K would be fried. I hope that it had acted as a fuse and not had affected the circuit board.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 08:00:30 pm by Tarloth »
 

Offline stj

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2018, 11:41:09 pm »
thats a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor!
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2018, 12:40:53 am »
thats a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor!

If it is a cap, it measured 79.9 nF on my DE-5000. 
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Offline Tarloth

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2018, 12:41:51 am »
Yes, it's seem that a capacitor but I have thermistors that look exactly the same.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/hakko-t12-pinout/
 

Offline Tarloth

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2018, 12:49:14 am »
Some chinese seller says that it it's a thermistor and offer their counterfeit handle with it.
 

Offline stj

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2018, 08:44:44 am »
the thermisters i'v seen in irons look like a small-signal diode.
 
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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2018, 01:49:04 pm »
I sent a reply to the gentleman from Hakko who couldn't give me the schematic and asked if he could at least tell me what the component is and the part number/value.  We will see if I have success with that.  Hopefully, that won't violate proprietary information.
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Offline stj

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2018, 02:04:34 pm »
personally, i would be so pissed off that i would generate a complete schematic and spread it, followed by looking at the mcu, although i think they use a Richoh chip and info on those is slim.
 

Offline Tarloth

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2018, 03:05:27 pm »
personally, i would be so pissed off that i would generate a complete schematic and spread it, followed by looking at the mcu, although i think they use a Richoh chip and info on those is slim.


I agree!. A complete scheme would be great in many ways and I also think it would have several positive effects:

a) Definitive guide between the pirate copies and the original one, although, making a diagram of which components are in each place of the plate already it's enough in this sense.

b) Repair guide! Although, in their favor I see few people who have problems/complains with the 951 in the forums.

c) The most important for me: clones that would be use exactly the same analog circuit would begin to appear, except, of course, the microcontroller. That is already a huge improvement with respect to today situation, there are hundreds of different circuits of T12 solders and a priori it is not known which is better. In this way it would be simpler, the Chinese clon with the same schematic in principle is the most reliable (never like the original of course). Eventually you have to replace some component of poor quality, but in general lines the quality of the copy would be more evaluable.

With regard to this last point, when the complete schemes of the 936 appeared years ago, at the same time there appeared lots of identical copies with different brands (with worse transformers and poor quality components) but the "current" copy of the 936 for 15 dollars is generally between acceptable and reasonably good for beginners. When copies get better, appear "brands" and  then evolve by themselves and separate from the "circuit" offered by a small a semi-homey sellers, improving the different parts and offering new models even.


I do not know if it is directly related, but for the same dates Hakko modernized the 936 and pulled out a somewhat better version to be separated from those clones. Maybe, it would be Pure Darwinism.

This does not mean that Hakko stops selling, on the contrary! It happens that in any case the Chinese copy does not have the same certifications, performance, robustness or ergonomics, the professional will continue buying original because it is a tool for him and its cost is ridiculous in the face of the improvement in the performance of his work.

But then the copied product appears as a reasonable alternative to the beginner or amateur, with few resources or very temporary use that never would be buy the original, which at least could have a temperature-controlled soldering station instead of the old fixed soldering iron connected to the wall.

When I buyed my 888D I never hesitated between buying Hakko or a clone, but when I donated for my son's school several solder stations for "robotics" I buy a very acceptable 936's clon.

I need a better handle than the 8801 and I convinced that cartridge system from Hakko, Pace, JBC and others are the way, but meanwhile the economics in my country get better I can buy the original cartridge and stay for a time with a clon/diy driver and when buy a real one station in the future I just have the tips and I can donate the driver to somebody that need it. But I have very clear that in the near future I need to buy the original and a clon not would be sufficient.

If now I could see a schematics of 951 I would do my own version and would stop to evaluate clones or would stop doubt about the better way to power the cartridge to avoid internal damages to it, but still be thinking in buy the real one soon.
 

Offline Tarloth

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2018, 04:38:42 pm »
Shock:

Have you know the differences between TD-100 and TD-200 handles and if the tips are interchanged? Thanks
 

Offline Shock

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2018, 06:14:52 pm »
Shock:

Have you know the differences between TD-100 and TD-200 handles and if the tips are interchanged? Thanks

The Pace MBT, WJS and ST "Intelliheat" stations have a TD-100 which is the original plastic iron/handle. Pace also has just released the TD-100a which is the newer redesigned silver aluminum version of the same iron, they both can use the same tips.

The Pace ADS200 "Accudrive" has the TD-200 blue aluminum iron/handle and uses the newer blue series tips with the K type thermocouple. Because of technology differences the tips between series are not interchangeable.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 06:32:40 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 189, 87V, 117, 112   >>> WANTED STUFF <<<
Oszilloskopen: Lecroy 9314, Phillips PM3065, Tektronix 2215a, 314
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2018, 06:58:33 pm »
So the saga continues.  I heard back from the person at Hakko.  I understand that I have a New Jersey accent but I didn't think it comes out in my typing. |O
I simply wanted to know the type of component and the value/part number that is in the wand.  This is what he sent--We do have the Replacement Receptacle for the face of the unit , However this part is not sold alone it is sold as a whole Front Panel Assembly with the PCB, Front Panel , And buttons.  :wtf:  Not sure of the extrapolation there to get from wand component to replacement receptacle.

I have reiterated my needs, hopefully as clear, concise and accent free as possible with small enough words that I might actually be understood.  Mrs GreyWoolfe has argued the point in the past that I will never be completely understood.  Not sure what she is trying to say.

Maybe I should start a new thread in the repair section as this appears to be turning into a journey.  Time to buckle up the seat belt and keep my hands and feet inside the vehicle.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 07:07:50 pm by GreyWoolfe »
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Offline KL27xTopic starter

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2018, 09:32:40 pm »
If you are not confident what you are doing, perhaps just wait until the new parts arrive and try swapping them in/out.

CE error, per the manual, is when the soldering station detects fault of the wand. Hopefully it is just a loose connection or something else very easy.

I think there is a lot of confusion over what are these 2 power supplies you scored. A wand from hakko, all by itself, is close to $100.00. I have no clue what these 2 power supplies are that you bought for 35-40 each. I have never seen the inside of a 951, but I would have guessed there's a 24V transformer in it. Then a half bridge rectifier, some caps, and a 5V linear regulator. All on the main PCB. I am curious to see if/when you get a chance to post some pics of the innards.

Quote
although i think they use a Richoh chip
I have heard they use a Renasas chip in the 888D. I think it has internal house marking on it, so I have not looked up a datasheet. You can't even purchase many of these industrial micros outside of large quantity orders, even if you had the firmware/hex. And dev tools like hardware programmer/software are perhaps not very simple or cheap.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 09:44:40 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Tarloth

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2018, 09:43:20 pm »
Thanks Shock for your patience. The only local distributor in Argentina (the other one it's closed since ever) told me that they only import ST25 but Tequipment answer that they could sell to Argentina. I need to think now.
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2018, 11:47:11 pm »
If you are not confident what you are doing, perhaps just wait until the new parts arrive and try swapping them in/out.

CE error, per the manual, is when the soldering station detects fault of the wand. Hopefully it is just a loose connection or something else very easy.

I think there is a lot of confusion over what are these 2 power supplies you scored. A wand from hakko, all by itself, is close to $100.00. I have no clue what these 2 power supplies are that you bought for 35-40 each.

It's not so much confidence, it's not really knowing what the part in the wand is.  I would have thought a thermistor but someone said it looks like a .1uF ceramic capacitor.  If it is a thermistor, it's bad, the resistance measured in the meg ohms.  If it is a .1uF capacitor, it is bad as it measured ~77 nF.  I don't want to play guess the component and possibly make things worse.  I am hoping that it won't be a difficult thing to give me what type of part it is and its value/part number.  I plan on testing the new wand in the old power supply and the old wand in the new power supplies.  I also plan to take measurements of the part in the working wand if Hakko won't supply the information I am asking for to try to determine what it is.  If I can't figure it out, maybe someone here could give an educated guess based on what information I will supply

  The seller is one I have a lot of experience with.  It is a surplus store that used to have a brick and mortar store the next town over.  They closed the store and are strictly doing online sales/auctions.  I have bought numerous things when the store was open including a number of large LCD monitors, old computers, an HP 3466A DMM, an HP function generator and a Tektronix 2465, all in working condition.  They had a post for a pair of used working FX-951 power supplies with 1 wand.  They are tested but stated that they couldn't change the temp because they don't have the key and they have a  14 day warranty.  I can make keys for them.  They were posted for a price of $199 and I offered $150, which was accepted.

EDIT:  My faith in humanity has been restored.  The gentlemen from Hakko, Kyle is his name, let me know that they have an assembly that consists of the socket (I am guessing for the tip) and thermistor condenser (his terminology) together for $7.95 and he has one on hand.  Now working on getting payment and shipping information to him so I can get the part and fix my wand.  Hopefully, that is all that is damaged.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 12:17:15 am by GreyWoolfe »
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Offline stj

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2018, 09:10:38 am »
i seriously doubt it's going to fix it, my bet is on the controller pcb.
have you looked at it yet, for anything obvious like burned tracks or burned resistors / semiconductors?
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2018, 01:38:04 pm »
i seriously doubt it's going to fix it, my bet is on the controller pcb.
have you looked at it yet, for anything obvious like burned tracks or burned resistors / semiconductors?

I looked at the board with my headset magnifier.  There is nothing obvious.  It may be both. 
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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: T12 clone vs 888, practical test results
« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2018, 06:18:10 pm »
UPDATE:The package with the power supplies and wand showed up at the door.  I plugged the new wand into the old power supply and the power supply started warming up.  It seems that it is the wand that is the issue.  I am still waiting to hear from Kyle at Hakko on how to pay for the socket assembly to fix the original wand.  I tested the 2 power supplies and they work as they should.  I just have some tape residue to remove from them, otherwise they and the wand cleaned up well.  The wand came with a T-15 IL conical tip that appears to be a bit abused as it has a slight curve to it and it is not a curved tip.  That might be useful for smd soldering, maybe.

Now that I know the original power supply works and the 2 I bought work, I will probably let 1 go for a decent price.  If anyone is interested, send me a PM.
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