T12 clone vs 888, practical test results

[KL27x]

I know I'm weird. I'm so bothered by the continual BS I hear about "cartridge tip" vs the old ways of soldering that I decided to do some objective testing. My own side-by-side comparisons bewteen a geniuine 888 and two T12 clones showed no significant advantage
in this specific case. (I do a fair bit of production soldering, so I have used them for the exact same things, extensively, like with hundreds of repetitions. The kind of soldering where you don't care what brand of iron you are using, you just want it to be over with as fast and efficiently and painlessly as possible).

For reference, I have recently discovered Dave's "Soldering Iron New vs Old" video which demonstrates but doesn't quantify the thermal drop advantage between a JBC and an 888 using very grossly similar tips. I suggest if you are confused about why I am testing the way I do, then you might want to watch that video; the thread and further discusson can be found in the EEVblog section of this forum.

For the temp sensing I took my generic thermocouple tip tester (ala Hakko FG style but 1/20th of the cost) and I modified with a socket and switch to enable readings from an external sensor. Happily, the instrument came with 10 sensors, so I have plenty of spares to mess with. These sensors are wettable, thus they are specifically made for this kind of testing. If you have a thermocouple that plugs into a DMM, it probably won't be as consistent.


For the heatsink, I used a 2 oz double sided square of copper clad. I soldered the thermocouple to the copper clad in a shallow pool of solder. For testing, the tip of the iron goes over this solder blob, pressing the sensor against the board.



Then I took my Bakon 950D and my 888 and put what is my favorite tip on each iron, the T18-CF3 on the 888, vs the T12-BCF3 on the Bakon. If you have these tips, you would immediately notice that the T12 version is shorter and stubbier, and the "B" means it gets a tapered thick base. I felt like the Bakon would win this test, but I was curious if it would be significant.




To wit, I am 99.99% sure the T12 tip is a fake. Purchased on eBay and shipped from either Hong Kong or China. I buy my Hakko tips usually thru Amazon because I have Prime. I am pretty confident they are genuine, but who really knows?

For the test I decided to stick an iron on the heatsinked sensor and adjust the set temp until the sensor read 200C. Then do the same with the other iron. I swapped back and forth between irons until I was satisfied they were both hovering between 198 and 202, and that I was getting consistent readings and satisfied that I was sitting in front of two apples.  (BTW this took awhile because adjusting either of these irons by degrees is pure stupidity, lol).

FWIW (not much), the actual display temp on the Bakon read 313 at this point. The temp on the 888 read 323. Advantage Bakon, right? Haha, of course the display means nothing when I have a tip tester right in front of me.

Tested on the tip sensor, the set temp of the Bakon measured 323C. The hakko 314C. Swapped between each iron repeatedly until I was satisfied these readings were repeatable. These readings were rock solid, change of only 1 degree max between measurements.

Cartridge tech, woohoo! (Sarcasm)

If someone has a 951 they want to send me, I'll be glad to test it. But it would be much easier to just buy a thermocouple tip tester and do your own testing.

In case anyone is confused, in this particular test the 888 beats the T12 cartridge technology. Not that this much difference in thermal drop necessary amounts to any significant practical advantage. I don't think it's significant, at all; more the same than different.

I also have a Suhan 616 which has way more power than the bakon. But in this test, the max power is not a factor IMO. I also have about a dozen other T12 tip styles, all with an equivalent tip style in the 888. So if anyone has any other ideas for tests or is curious about this performance testing on another tip style, go ahead and shoot.






 

[KL27x]

Tested the 616 with the same BCF3 tip. I only have one stand*, anymore, for the T12 irons, so I did not have a 3 way test.

So I used the Hakko at the exact same setting. I added a little more solder to the test sink, apparently, and/or there is some variation in the readings from my cheap tester. I got reading of 195C on average with the Hakko. When the 616 was adjusted to produce the same temp, the results of the set/no-load temp measurements:

Hakko 888 318C
616 24.5V T12 clone 322C

It would appear to me that the analog control circuit of the 616 is pretty comparable to the Bakon in this test. 

*I ended up giving up my original Suhan to put to work in a different environment. But I have a spare unit. It's just so compact and dirt cheap, and I have a significant variety of T12 tips. But the bakon won by a skosh at my bench as a second iron, just because the narrowness of the unit. Especially with the thinnish integrated power cord, it was a slightly better fit for my bench and use as a second/portable station with an iron holder integrated onto the top of the station.

If anyone comes up with a specific task they want to claim their 951/T12 does better than an 888, I'll be glad to put my cheapo clones to the test along with some temp readings.

[timelessbeing]

Where are the photos of the setup? Where is a video? I don't see any tables or charts of the results. 

All I see is a wall of difficult to digest text.  Sorry, but 

[KL27x]

Video will require editing. What you want to see? Same thing I just did, or did you have another test you want to see? I ain't gonna spend two hours for you to complain I didn't show this or that.

Photos of the setup? Sure thing. Coming soon. But I don't see anything wrong with words? Maybe you don't speak English as your first language. It takes much less time for me to write (and for you to read) the details of what I did. If you don't trust me, video won't help either, unless I can set it up to do it in one cut, using one hand, and that would be difficult to do for many reason and would end up with a long video that is very difficult to watch. Do you doubt Dave? In the video I mentioned, he claims he set each station to 270C. Of course you believe him. But he didn't even test the tip temp and only ends up with a slight subjective result... so what the heck does that even MEAN to begin with when a difference in calibration could be much larger than the slight difference noted as "the result?"


Incidentally.... Why does this require proof for anyone to believe it? But claiming T12 clone is better performance than anything you can do with the old ceramic heater? People saying it with nothing to back it up, this is totally accepted.

Anyhow, as I said, I will post some pics just to show the setup. In case anyone wants to try for themselves. A video I can do, but like I said. There are some challenges. But since I am motivated, I may be able to do it IF you are specific about what you wish to see. But please see the upcoming pics first, and please read the OP first, if you can do English. So you can make some suggestions, if you have any.

[KL27x]

My tip tester. I have had it for a year or two.

Here's the switch and socket I added for the external sensor.


Here's a pic of the inside. I'm using white kynar wire, lately, so I dunno what good this pic is.


This is what it the heat-sink-sensor setup looks like. Pretty much the way I described it with those pesky words.


Here's a closeup of the thermocouple soldered to the board


Here's a pic showing it is solidly soldered to the board


Here's a pic I stumbled across in my account of my bakon and my 888 from last year. Added to uh, I guess prove I have these and did not simply make this stuff up!?


So look. The little lcd display is pretty small on this tester. And it takes two hands to do the test, because solder melts and the sensor moves. And I would also apparently have to have both irons in frame the whole time for you to believe I don't have a helper changing the settings out of frame? And you'd need a closeup of the iron on the sensor to make sure I wasn't fucking with one of them? And see the LCD at the same time? Take a look and figure out for youself how hard this would be for me to do.

So before demanding video proof, if you think I'm a deluded biased fanboi of hakko 888 and trying to justify my massive 79.00 investment in these stations (US Fry's, thank you) you can go on ebay and buy a tip tester for $10.00 and try it for yourself.

If you want a vid, please be specific.

[KL27x]

FYI, I can honestly say I solder, professionally. As in I save/make money by soldering. I can justify spending a significant amount of money on soldering equipment if I even think it may make soldering more pleasant or efficient in any way.

The money I spent on T12 clones was purely just for my own amusement. I never thought it would do anything better for me. But I WAS curious if it could solder to ground planes with little tips without bumping the temp, like people repeatedly SUGGEST about these T12 cartridge tips. And no, it's not even close. Not by a mile. Not remotely something anyone should be suggesting. If anything, I do just as good maybe better with T18 CF1 or CF15, soldering to ground planes.

At the time I bought these clones, members like STJ were talking up the T12 clones like they were a whole other level compared to an 888. I have found them totally competent. Certainly faster heat up (provided PSU voltage is high enough; bakon @19.5V has nearly the same cold start time as the 888). And certainly just as capable as the 888 for everything I have tried. But other than the cold start time, I have yet to figure out a single thing where they are any noticeable bit better.

If I actually needed to use a teeny tip to solder things en masse - which I don't*; QFN, SSOP, 0402s are my bread and butter, for the last half a decade; but the only reason I use tiny tips is for things like deadbugging these tight pitch IC's for proto or debugging - but if I DID, AND I wanted to be able to solder heatsinks and ground planes with the same tip/setting often enough to justify the size of the Metcal stations, I would buy a Metcal.

Yes, there are plenty of reasons to buy and recommend the 951 or T12 clones, but perhaps some of the claims are beyond objective? Maybe if others start sharing objective data to the contrary, I could be convinced to actually purchase a genuine 951 or JBC to see for myself. I understand and have seen the difference between hakko clones and the real 888 (which can be huge, and comes down to everything BUT the circuitry or what we like to think of as technology). But I know these T12 clones and knockoff tips are perhaps not as good. But from what I HAVE seen, I'm way too skeptical to lay down the dough for the real thing on the off chance the internet isn't as dumb and easily swayed as I think it is.

*At the risk of turning this into a rant - there is a lot of personal preference involved in soldering. At least for most people who might only tinker at it. If you do design or repair work or are an Arduino hobbyist, the soldering is only a very miniscule small part. It is NICE to be able to enjoy this moment. It's a break from the debugging. Use your BR tip, so you can enjoy the view. Use your hot air, if you like. You deserve it. You just spent two hours reading schematics and datasheets. And God-knows-how-long proofing code. That's what you get paid for. But anyone who has ever made the decision to change hats and deliver to a customer and needed to do this a hundred times for a good few hours a day? There is a lot less personal preference involved. When you discover more efficient and elegant ways to do things, they tend to stick.  And you learn to identify the deficiencies in your equipment, if any, by objective criteria. IF the station could do this, I could do THIS faster/easier.

So if I'm missing an obvious advantage of the T12 due to how/what I solder, I'd like to learn what I'm missing from your perspective. And I would try to put that to the test in an objective way, if possible. Soldering specific things. Desoldering even. Mobo, video card, something else? If I got it, I will fry it.

Hmm, I bet I could come up with some tiny heatsink for the cold junction.

[stj]

for any beginners reading your setup, both the bakon and the hakko can be calibrated from the front buttons.

[Shock]

What performance were you looking at? Heat up time, thermal stability/continuous power, total power, calibration?

It sounds like you are testing calibration, which doesn't effect performance unless the unit can't be calibrated at a certain temperature or perhaps through a range of temperatures if you are using multiple operating temps.

Comparing two stations that are not showing the same calibration or offset (which could affect recovery)  would be a waste of time because they are heating at different temps. I've seen this mistake made in videos before, too many apples to oranges comparisons, also you should use genuine stations and tips or at least a genuine T12 tip to compare against a genuine T18. Hard to reproduce the results of a clone tip because there is no real guarantee they are consistent.

Then look at the price of a Bakon 950D compared to a Hakko FX-888D, and in different markets. The ease of tip swapping between the units, range and working distance, total power. These factors should all be taken into consideration.

About cartridge tips in general I've always pointed out they have a higher cost of ownership (talking genuine tips) especially when you want to use a range of tips it gets damn expensive. Aside from wearing out a tip normally the first thing to go is the element/heater, a cartridge tip solves this problem easily and if you have a spare tip your station is not rendered inoperable.

Anyway, I've just splashed out for the new Pace ADS200 with a pile of cartridges, I prefer the handle and style over the Hakko FX-951 and the Pace is spec'd for 120W with their Ultra Performance tips. My point is that Pace has cheaper cartridges at about half the price of the Hakko T12 series and their station is cheaper as well. So T18 to T12 tip performance testing might be a moot point.

The other matter is comparing which stations are ESD safe and not all the T12/T13 clones are.

[KL27x]

It sounds like you are testing calibration, which doesn't effect performance unless the the unit can't be calibrated at a certain temperature or perhaps through a range of temperatures if you are using multiple operating temps.

Comparing two stations that are not showing the same calibration or offset (which could affect recovery)  would be a waste of time because they are heating at different temps. I've seen this mistake made in videos before, too many apples to oranges comparisons...

Shock, no.  I am measuring the temperature when the iron is pressed to a specific heatsink. Then I'm measuring the no-load/set temp without the heatsink. But to take out any inconsistency in sensor readings (while holding the cold junction between my fingers) or other factors like heat sink temperature, etc, I went the further distance to swap irons back and forth several times to make sure I was comparing apples to apples best as possible.*

Calibration has no effect on this test. In fact, I did not even care what the display on the stations read at any point in the test. All measurements were done on the tip tester. (I only NOTED the final temp on either display as a matter of curiosity). I adjusted both irons until the heatsinked sensor read 200C. I had no idea which one was the winner until I tested the no-load temp. Whatever was on the actual stations' display is irrelevant. Only at the end of the test did I see the calibration was different between irons. But that does not matter and actually makes the test more valid, if anything. The 200C mark is a bit arbitrary. It could be anything, but keeping it practical makes the results more practical. Lead solder melts at 183-188C, and I figure you need to reach at least 200C at the interface in order to practically solder to a ground plane. And 200C is a nice round number that is easy to remember.

I do not claim the test to be highly consistent. It was a bit janky. Nor do I claim the 200C reading done on the heatsink and big blob of solder is absolutely accurate. This is not how the sensor/instrument was designed (but yes, the solder blob was mostly melted at this temp reading). But as a relative measurement performed side-to-side between irons, I am confident it is worth a lot more than empty boasts and speculation based on a single theoretical advantage with zero quantification.

What performance were you looking at?

Watch the EEV video, Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained. This explains what I'm measuring: thermal drop between sensor (set temp) and the interface between tip and board when the tip is applied to a thermal heatsink. Notice that it is DAVE's test which is in all likelihood enormously affected (completely invalidated IMO) by difference in calibration between the two stations. When you set them both to 270 relying on the stations' displays, one is invariably going to be different than the other unless you won the lottery.

In my opinion, thermal drop is one of the main reasons why you have to adjust the temp on an iron to solder larger heatsinks/groundplanes. (But in reality, even if the tip could maintain set temp at it's very surface no matter what, you would still need to set the temp a fair bit higher than 189C, unless you only wanted to melt a tiny layer of solder on top of a blob).  It is universally suggested that cartridge tips perform better in this regard, but my own experience specifically with 888 and T12 CLONES says otherwise. If there's a significant advantage to the T12 tip due to the cartridge sensor/heater arrangement, then there were other compromises made which nullify it. In fact, the "advantage" might need a negative sign in front of it. No, I don't have genuine T12 tips or 951 station.

FWIW, I have previously found the bakon and 888 to warm up in about 17 seconds from cold, using large bevel tip, anyway. Bakon runs at only 19.5V. 24.5V Suhan warms up in about 10 seconds. (I have also weighed these tips, and I don't have an exact figure because I don't have a broken tip to weight just the shaft. But based on the weights and the balance point of the T12, I believe the T12 version is less than half the mass, which adequately explains the difference in cold start times).

Yes, the T12 clones work very well. If I was in a country where the 888 cost $200.00, I would be pretty darn happy with T12 clones. I can't imagine buying a more capable station for $25 to $50. And I'd take almost any T12 clone over any 936/888 clone I have ever used.  I'm just not thrilled when people parrot/promote marketing wank without any (appropriate) validation/testing (especially when it turns out to not be true/significant... possibly even a measurable disadvantage).

Warning. Physics ahead.
If you could get the sensor right at the tip, it might be significant. But getting this sensor closer to the base of the shaft on the tip doesn't appear to be that significant, to me, vs the conventional way. The main impediment you are removing is the bit of contact fit/air gap btn tip and sensor in the conventional arrangement... but the interface between heater/sensor and tip in the conventional irons is made large enough in surface area, and the sheer mass of copper between this interface and the base of the tip shaft where the cartridges get their "head start" is enough to do the job. The thermal resistance between the base of the stalk/stem of the tip and the actual working surface is going to dwarf any improvement that you can make in the back. IOW, even the theoretical improvement you can make is pretty close to squadoosh. In EE speak, you're moving your sense trace from one end of the 10 foot 0.5AWG copper cable to the other. But it's still on the wrong side of that 10 ohm resistor.

So if the difference between a power-controlled iron and a conventional temp-controlled iron is X, the difference between that and a cartridge is a very small fraction of X. At least until they can put the sensor right under the skin of the actual tip (without plugging up the transmission of power with the sensor/leads; talking micro/nano technology perhaps). The current status of cartridge tech is not there, yet. Does this lure look any better to the fish? No. It looks sexier to the fisherman. But don't worry. For today, we have RF stations. Aside from the marketing aspect, the manufacturers also win by being able to reduce the size of the heater/sensor-to-tip power coupling/interface. This means less copper needed for the manufacturer and faster cold start times for the consumer. But as far as thermal gradient/drop, the advantage is not necessarily expressed/significant/real/practical.

*What I recognize to be the significant factors in the test: tip surface area of contact with the solder blob. I used same 3mm TFO bevel tip on each iron and tried to get complete contact between solder iron and solder blob. I applied a dot of flux between tests, I was careful to keep the sensor centered on the tip, and to keep the tip level, and I swapped irons back and forth several times without shifting grip on the tail end of the sensor cold-junction (which did not noticeably get hot to my fingertips during the testing). Basically, I did the same thing, alternating several times between the irons, keeping everything as same as I could. I waited several seconds, maybe 5 to 8 seonds, until the temp bottomed out. As long as max power consumption is not reached (i.e. heatsink so big that the heater hits 100% duty cycle on one or both irons), I don't think there are any other important considerations. But if I missed something, let me hear about it.

[Shock]

Shock, no.  I am measuring the temperature when the iron is pressed to a specific heatsink. Then I'm measuring the no-load/set temp without the heatsink. But to take out any inconsistency in sensor readings (while holding the cold junction between my fingers) or other factors like heat sink temperature, etc, I went the further distance to swap irons back and forth several times to make sure I was comparing apples to apples best as possible.*

Ok so you are testing the stations ability to keep a heat sink a certain temperature. I assume that you allowed them fully to cool down between tests to notice if it took one iron substantially longer. Did you happen to measure the heat up times from say room temp?

Watch the EEV video, Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained.

I watched it briefly I'll check it again.

It is universally suggested that cartridge tips perform better in this regard

I don't think people universally suggested that without reservation, did they? Especially when it comes to clone T12 tips. I know the element in the 907 iron can deliver a ton of heat. I've not seen your test done before, but it's 65W vs 70W if comparing the genuine irons without taking into consideration design/controller/power supply etc.

No, I don't have genuine T12 tips or 951 station.

I think that is a better test to confirm the performance of the technologies involved. Do your same test but after you get what controller setting each station requires, start timing them once everything returns back to room temp and the stations turned off. Plus try and reduce the human element as even squirming the iron around to get melt, or if a thermal bridge was made will change the results.

But based on the weights and the balance point of the T12, I believe the T12 version is less than half the mass, which adequately explains the difference in cold start times).

Yes which is why you want to look at the whole picture, it's no always about startup. I understand though you are trying to use similar tips between stations. If you believe the manufacturers possible hyperbole on performance you could come to an easy conclusion that the clone tips from China have had far less attention paid to them. They may look the same but be very different material wise.

I'm just not thrilled when people parrot/promote marketing wank without any (appropriate) validation/testing (especially when it turns out to not be true/significant... possibly even a measurable disadvantage).

Understandable but I think there is a little more to it testing wise.

I've held off buying any T12 clone and a genuine Hakko FX-951 (which is $460 here) for home use mainly because there is better iron handles out for around the $100 range for the genuine article. Since I use two stations for convenience that is a $200 minimum spend plus you have to DIY a controller which is hardly a recommendation you can make to most people. I also prefer linear supplies and one that is ESD safe but also which I can optionally float if I need, and without the concerns of safety from a dodgy SMPS.

There is no doubt in my mind the Hakko FX-888D is the most reliable in that price bracket, but cartridges still offer advantages. Aside from the fact you would be hearing everyone who owns a Hakko FX-951 complain that their FX-888D or 936 was better.

If you could get the sensor right at the tip, it might be significant. But getting this sensor closer to the base of the shaft on the tip doesn't appear to be that significant, to me, vs the conventional way.

Interesting you say that, in the Pace ADS 200 (which has the new AccuDrive system in the TD-200 iron) uses a K type thermocouple right in the end of the tip, reportedly to give +/- 5 degrees accuracy. They also mention their high thermal mass tips can take double the time to heat up, so that goes back to what you said earlier and proving there is different things at play.

But does the testing really matter, do we really need to know? I mean here and in Europe the Bakon 950D is FAR cheaper than a genuine Hakko FX-888D but I wouldn't call it a super nice station.

I try not to spend too much money on Made for China crap, and I think people dropping $100+ on single Chinese born stations is pretty sad, that is me personally, good on you if it works for you. I have around 8 different irons by the way, they all solder joints well.

[KL27x]

Ok so you are testing the stations ability to keep a heat sink a certain temperature.

This ability is not in question. I feel like ANY station (with at least a true 30W or 40W that make it to the tip) can keep this specific spot on this specific heatsink at 200C with a fatty 3mm bevel tip. What I'm measuring is how much higher than 200C the set temp must be set to in order for either iron to hold the heatsink at 200C.

I assume that you allowed them fully to cool down between tests to notice if it took one iron substantially longer. Did you happen to measure the heat up times from say room temp?

No. I am setting each iron to the point where the steady state temp is 200C. To this effect, I kept either iron on the heatsink for several seconds until this steady state is reached. When I swapped irons I did not wait for the heatsink to cool down. But it doesn't matter which one I tested first. I swapped several times (and made several adjustments to each station) to verify apple is apple. The temp would initially START higher than 200C and drop. I kept either iron on there long enough until a steady state was reached (and the board nice and warm to the edges). I'm not testing the ability of the iron to heat up a thermal mass, which would require very accurate TIMING. I'm using the heatsink to sink heat. Once up to temp at 200C exactly in the center and stable where the in equals the out, it is sinking heat at a very precise and repeatable rate. It is an ambient air-cooled radiator. Once steady state is achieved, you can take a pic with a FLIR, and if you don't move anything, you can take another pic an hour later, and it should look identical. In this way, the only variable that I need to control is 1. the mass of the heatsink; I can't put a huge glob of solder on there for one iron, and remove it for the other, and 2. The size of the interface must be consistent between the two irons. This is why I used 3mm bevel on both irons. If one iron contacts the heatsink over a larger area than the other, then it will have better thermal coupling to the heatsink. I tried to keep this consistent between irons, to keep the thermal load consistent. I want the FLIR pic to look as identical as possible between the two irons, as well. The ultimate goal is to dissipate the same wattage out of each iron and end up with 200C at the working surface. To maintain this condition probably only takes something south of 20W.

I don't think people universally suggested that without reservation, did they?

Dave draws conclusion that JBC is better than his 888, in this aspect, based on what appears to be a faulty test. And really no way to attribute the result to cartridge tech, specifically.
I just recently watched Louis Rossman video where he states he would take any knockoff T12 station over anything using the old technology.  And he uses a Metcal graph to make his point. I have found Rossman's review videos lacking in any objectivity, in general.
I find recently people asking for advice about certain stations, and they say "but cartridge tips are better, right."

At the time I bought my first T12 clone, I was finding lots of posts saying some really, really hard to believe stuff about the T12. Part of me bought the clones just so I could correct them. (Eventually. I was quite patient, waiting 2 months and soldering thousands of connections with them before jumping to any conclusions).

Interesting you say that, in the Pace ADS 200 (which has the new AccuDrive system in the TD-200 iron) uses a K type thermocouple right in the end of the tip

I find this curious to eventually see. The problem with this is that the sensor and its leads takes up a certain amount of space. So wherever it goes you are creating a dead spot in the iron which has significantly lower thermal conductivity than copper. In many of the finer tips I use, there seems to be no room for any actual copper to begin with.   

I also prefer linear supplies and one that is ESD safe but also which I can optionally float if I need, and without the concerns of safety from a dodgy SMPS.

True this. My 888 is modified to have 10 Mohm connection to ground by default.

[thm_w]

Thanks for doing this testing, it is great information.

One thing that isn't being tested here is thermal response time, I think you'd need a data logger of some sort to generate useful data though.

FWIW, I have previously found the bakon and 888 to warm up in about 17 seconds from cold, using large bevel tip, anyway. Bakon runs at only 19.5V. 24.5V Suhan warms up in about 10 seconds. (I have also weighed these tips, and I don't have an exact figure because I don't have a broken tip to weight just the shaft. But based on the weights and the balance point of the T12, I believe the T12 version is less than half the mass, which adequately explains the difference in cold start times).

Suhan seems significantly faster to warm up, if you do further testing it would make sense to use this station.
As you said your thermal resistance testing here shouldn't be affected.

[Prizmatic]

Well that's answered all the questions I had about clone T12 tips, thanks KL27x. I'd like to see a re-run of this test with a genuine Hakko T12 tip for completeness. These cheap t12 units/kits are everywhere, would be interesting to see if dropping in a genuine tip justifies the additional cost.

[nanofrog]

These cheap t12 units/kits are everywhere, would be interesting to see if dropping in a genuine tip justifies the additional cost.

FWIW, plating thickness is heavier on the genuine article based on 900/T18 tip comparisons, which is critical to its lifespan (i.e. users report years of service with genuine Hakko tips).

In terms of the tip's ability to transfer heat only (T12/T15), probably no perceivable difference when comparing the same shape (same amount of copper). This is likely why the free-air initial heat up times look similar between a genuine Hakko FX-951 or T12 clone stations.

As Shock mentioned, we'd really need a comparison between genuine Hakko's using both the T12/T15 v. the T18 series' tips to see the effect of the tech across their current offerings.

Interestingly enough, another member, GreyWoolfe owns both a Metcal (13.56Mhz version) and genuine Hakko FX-951. And has stated in multiple threads that the performance is similar between them, and either are a HUGE improvement over the genuine Hakko 936 he used to own (888's daddy).

Seems to fit with the lack of complaints from genuine Hakko T12/T15 based station owners (or JBC or Weller for that matter) in terms of cartridge tip tech just being marginally better performers on high thermal draw joints like ground planes at any rate.

[Prizmatic]

Thanks for the info' nanofrog re: reliability/longevity being the benefit of a genuine T12 tip. As a hobbyist who does mostly ugly/deadbug prototyping lots of joints go to bare copper. On the lookout for an iron with more thermal capacity that won't break the beer fund (using an RS 936 clone). Still not sure if these T12 clones fit the bill.

[nanofrog]

Thanks for the info' nanofrog re: reliability/longevity being the benefit of a genuine T12 tip. As a hobbyist who does mostly ugly/deadbug prototyping lots of joints go to bare copper. On the lookout for an iron with more thermal capacity that won't break the beer fund (using an RS 936 clone). Still not sure if these T12 clones fit the bill.

I'm not so sure the T12 clone stations will be better than what you're using either. 

Unfortunately, the gap in the UK/EU is terrible between clones and anything decent (new). Seems Ersa offers the best value in the EU these days (Nano at a minimum, but better an i-Con 1). Really good performers and reasonable tip costs (simple plated tips, but last a long time). Plenty of info from owners in the forum if you're interested.

If you're dead set on a cartridge station, Weidinger sells an analog JBC for less than the digital versions (here). Cost wise of the station, it sits between both of the Ersa's. But be warned, the tip costs will probably clean out your cupboard, drink all your beer, and leave the empties strewn all over the place.   

There's the used market to consider as well (I know, it's not wonderful in the UK). BUT, there's currently a used Ersa i-Con 1 (full setup) starting at 140GBP with no bids). So if you can swing it, I'd suggest putting in a bid and waiting it out. There's also a Weller WD1 (full setup for 205GBP BIN).

Oh, and I use the same model Weller.

[Prizmatic]

JCB tips.. I need both kidneys.  Its looking like auction trawling, or 2 dry months for a Xytronic LF-3200. 

[nanofrog]

JCB tips.. I need both kidneys.  Its looking like auction trawling, or 2 dry months for a Xytronic LF-3200. 

152GBP for that station is nuts IMHO. 

Might want to consider medical donations then. At 100GBP for a blood or plasma donation of 600ml, you could cut that down to 1 month. Or keep it to two months and keep the beer. 

[KL27x]

Interestingly enough, another member, GreyWoolfe owns both a Metcal (13.56Mhz version) and genuine Hakko FX-951. And has stated in multiple threads that the performance is similar between them, and either are a HUGE improvement over the genuine Hakko 936 he used to own (888's daddy).

Interesting, indeed. I have only used a Metcal a few times. I assumed if they went through all that trouble, it was because there was a significant improvement. But when I recently saw the insides of an actual Metcal tip, posted by another member, I'm not so sure, anymore. Just like with the cartridge tech, there seems to be a significant limit to how close you can get the sensor/heater to the actual tip. Before seeing the actual tip, I had erroneously believed that curie tuned alloy made up the bulk of the tip. But I think that is wrong, and that the heater "pellet" at the back of the tip must drop in temp before the curie effect causes increased high frequency skin resistance of only the heating pellet, and that heat is then conducted to the tip through copper. So it's really not any different than a cartridge tip other than the very tiny delay of signal processing and switching going on in the convetional types of stations. There is still going to be significant thermal gradient between the pellet and the tip when that tip is pressed against a heatsink.

would be interesting to see if dropping in a genuine tip justifies the additional cost.

The cost of the genuine tip I tested happens to be more than I paid for either of these clone stations So that's not going to happen, lol. (edit: wrong... found this tip for only $10 and change on Teq) Based on my understanding of basic physics and thermodynamics, and unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible), I don't see how a cartridge tip will significantly outperform a regular soldering iron in regards to this thermal drop. AFAIC, the majority of the thermal drop is going to happen where the tip gets skinny. And the heater and sensor don't go up there, AFAIK. They are in the back of the tip, like with the metcal, like with the 888, like with pretty much all irons.


THE IMPROVEMENT OF CARTRIDGE TIPS:
This is not to say that cartridge tips are not a major improvement over regular irons. The major improvement is higher efficiency in the heating.* In the transfer of heat from a ceramic element to the tip, there are higher losses; hence, there is more heat going into the handle. In high heatsinking, high duty cycle soldering, the T12 cartridge can output that heat without warming up the handle. Example: when using a knife tip to batch solder a bunch of QFN chips in a row, my 888 can get hot enough to be uncomfortable or even burn at the very front lip of the handle. The T12 clones can do this nonstop without significant issue. I noticed this when going back to my regular 888 after 2 months of using T12 clones, exclusively. And as far as I can tell, this and warm up time are the only definitive improvements that is not subjective or related to ergonomics. For the average dude who doesn't assemble things for a living, this is not a major concern. Most people don't solder the same thing over and over, nonstop, for several minutes at a time.

*Now, you'd think that if the 951 is 70W and the 888 is 70W, the 951 would have greater effective power output because it is not heating the handle as much. In experience, they are about the same. In 2 months of using T12 clone, I had to bump the temp up just as high when trying to solder a big heat sink with a small, thin tip. 

   

 

[nanofrog]

Interestingly enough, another member, GreyWoolfe owns both a Metcal (13.56Mhz version) and genuine Hakko FX-951. And has stated in multiple threads that the performance is similar between them, and either are a HUGE improvement over the genuine Hakko 936 he used to own (888's daddy).

Interesting, indeed. I have only used a Metcal a few times. I assumed if they went through all that trouble, it was because there was a significant improvement. But when I recently saw the insides of an actual Metcal tip, posted by another member, I'm not so sure, anymore. Just like with the cartridge tech, there seems to be a significant limit to how close you can get the sensor/heater to the actual tip.

The stations Metcal introduced were a noticeable improvement. That was also 36 years ago, and other companies have caught up in recent years. Surpassing it in some cases.

Take a look at the following image shows some tricks to get the sensor closer to the tip's contact surface using current tech. The left-most illustration is cartridge tech, while the center and far right are just plated tips + separate heaters (i.e. tech used in the WXP120 and WSP80/WP80 respectively).



Other tricks I've noticed are increased power into the tip based on the temp differential when first touching the joint (i.e. 150W in the case of Ersa's i-Tool iron or 140W for JBC's T245, otherwise run at nominal levels approx. half that or so), a faster control loop (faster sense & response to reduce the temp gradient between heating cycles), and adjusting tip mass (stored heat in the tip itself). It's a balancing act, and I suspect the increased availability of thermal imaging and better thermodynamic simulation software has significantly helped this along in the back half or so of the aforementioned development gap.

...[snip]...I don't see how a cartridge tip will significantly outperform a regular soldering iron in regards to this thermal drop.

They can and have gotten the sensor closer. The copper mass can be adjusted as well for high demand joints. Pace's tips for the new ADS200 clearly bear this out, as do some of JBC's (wide chisels and/or high mass versions of smaller shapes, usually with a copper sleeve that encompasses some of the exterior of the stainless steel shaft on a cartridge).



Same goes for non-cartridge tips, which are well illustrated by Ersa's 102 series (few examples).

• 0102CDLF80A (8mm chisel)
• 0102CDLF100 (10mm chisel)
• 0102CDLF200 (20mm wedge)

*Now, you'd think that if the 951 is 70W and the 888 is 70W, the 951 would have a much greater effective power output. Based on my experience and testing with clones, this is not the case.

The highlighted bit seems to be the key factor in your disappointment with cartridge tech, as GreyWoolfe's posts didn't indicate that to me at all.
Another possibility might be take up a collection to buy him a T12 clone and ask if he'd do a write-up.

Actual YT soldering videos with it didn't either (FM-102 or FM-203 use the same iron & tips). John Gammell's drag soldering video would be one such example (he does solder training for a living).

[KL27x]

Take a look at the following image shows some tricks to get the sensor closer to the tip's contact surface using current tech. The left-most illustration is cartridge tech, while the center and far right are just plated tips + separate heaters (i.e. tech used in the WXP120 and WSP80/WP80 respectively).

In this picture, you can visualize a clear difference in the distance between the sensor and the point of the tip. The one on the left has a much shorter distance.

But if you chop all three tips off at the point where the leftmost tip has the sensor, you will see the extra distance on the other two occur over a relatively thick diameter of copper.

In scenario #1, you have a power supply 100 feet away from your house. You carry the current to your home through 90 feet of 2AWG wire. And the last 10 feet you reduce the diameter to 20AWG.

And in scenario #2, you bring the power supply 90 feet closer to your house, but you still bridge that ten feet with 20AWG wire. 

You're cutting out the thick wire, but the vast majority of the voltage drop is happening over the 10 foot section of thin 20AWG wire. And you have not improved that.

The highlighted bit seems to be the key factor in your disappointment with cartridge tech, as GreyWoolfe's posts didn't indicate that to me at all.

I was making a statement on the power rating on the station. If you measure the resistance of a genuine tip, is it not over 8 ohms, like the clones? I find it improbable that with the average T12 tip is drawing enough peak current to reach 70W dissipation when to temp. I bet this 70W is a max rating that is only reached by special tips. Not saying that average tips actually need all 70W. It seems to me that the T12 tips are more efficient... losing less power to the side effect of heating up the handle?**

John Gammel or GreyWolfe can be very happy with their 951's. There are a lot of reasons to like it. No doubt John Gammel knows how to solder. But I don't see how that is either here nor there. I never said the 951 wasn't as good as the 888; in fact, it is better in a couple of ways. But maybe the improvement is not what people typically ascribe to it. What I hear ad nauseum is akin to "do you have to crank your station up to 400C to solder to those big ground planes? This is why you need to upgrade to cartridge tech." Between 888 and 951 (clones) I don't see a significant improvement in this particular aspect.  The 888 goes beyond the 936 by increasing the voltage of the power supply. But it is now limited, perhaps, by the heat loss into the handle. The T12 removes this limitation, but at least with the average tips, it doesn't appear to me to move the bar much if at all, in regards to increasing power delivery or reducing thermal drop (diff between set temp and joint temp). It seems to be content to be at least as good in these two aspects while reducing the heating up of the handle.

**edited to add:
powered directly from bench psu I was pulling 2.5A while melting solder. So yeah, that's over 60W, anyhow. I'll edit out any erroneous information in my previous post. Effectively, the resistance is around 9.6R when up to temp, if it draws 2.5A at 24V DC, which is the most reliable measurement out of these all as pertains to peak power. (edited out hot "resistance" readings, because the thermocouple interferes when there's a temp differential across it). I don't really want to run my 888 off DC, but at a true cold resistance of 3ish ohms vs 8 ohms, I would expect it might draw more current at temp. Of course the positive thermal coefficient is probably higher.

[nanofrog]

In this picture, you can visualize a clear difference in the distance between the sensor and the point of the tip. The one on the left has a much shorter distance.

But if you chop all three tips off at the point where the leftmost tip has the sensor, you will see the extra distance on the other two occur over a relatively thick diameter of copper.

Yes. This was what I was trying to get across. To get enough heat into the joint in a timely manner with the older tech, they have to use more copper (more thermal energy gets stored to handle high demand joints).

In the case of Hakko's T12/15 tips using less copper, they're relying on a faster cycle combined with that closer sensor (sense + heat). To do this, they have to run at a higher frequency.

In the case of JBC, it's 2x the wall frequency, so 120Hz here in NA. Not sure what it is for the Hakko, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's much different (if at all). JBC just took things a bit further by being able to pour in more power into the element (2x in fact) than the Hakko T12/T15 stations can deliver, followed by some high copper mass tip shapes. This allows them to produce more thermal energy per cycle + store more of it in the case of high mass tips.

I never said the 951 wasn't as good as the 888; in fact, it is better in a couple of ways. But maybe the improvement is not what people typically ascribe to it. What I hear ad nauseum is akin to "do you have to crank your station up to 400C to solder to those big ground planes? This is why you need to upgrade to cartridge tech." Between 888 and 951 (clones) I don't see a significant improvement in this particular aspect.

I get what you're trying to say. But keep in mind, those that have used both genuine Hakkos (i.e. 936, 888 vs. 102, 203, 950, 951) say the cartridge tip versions perform noticeably better.

The point I'm trying to get across is the differences between genuine Hakko stations and the T12 clones comes down to the differing electronics. Specifically, that the clones are running at a slower sense + heat cycle, delivering less thermal energy per unit time for the same tip shape, joint conditions, and temp settings.

And as you've only experienced T12 clones, you've NOT seen how the T12/T15 cartridge tip tech can truly perform (what it can do in a genuine Hakko).

Seriously, I'd like to compare the T12 clone designs to that of one of the genuine Hakko cartridge tech stations.

[KL27x]

The highlighted bit seems to be the key factor in your disappointment with cartridge tech, as GreyWoolfe's posts didn't indicate that to me at all.

I'd like to, as well. One day.

In the case of Hakko's T12/15 tips using less copper, they're relying on a faster cycle combined with that closer sensor (sense + heat). To do this, they have to run at a higher frequency.

I refute the "faster cycle time" as being better. Just because the 888 heater clicks on/off slowly, this doesn't mean it doesn't respond as fast. It just means the hysteresis is higher because the designers decided it doesn't really matter. It's a difference of do you want to blink your left turn signal at 1 Hz, which is fast enough. Or at 6Hz just to be annoying.

The higher thermal mass of the 888 tip is necessary because you have to couple the heater to the tip with a higher surface area interface in order to do the same job. Yes, this adds thermal mass and slows the change in temp of the tip when you touch a heatsink. This is not good nor bad. If it was smaller in mass, the heater would kick in faster. If it was larger in mass, the heater would kick in slower. But as far as you are concerned making joints, it doesn't matter one way or the other whether the heat going into the joint in the first fraction of a second is being supplied by electro-thermal engine or what is stored in thermal mass. "Faster recovery" is misguided. This is only the case where you are soldering to a heatsink that sinks more heat than the heater can actually supply. At any job that demands less than the max power, which should be all of your jobs else you need a more powerful iron, it doesn't matter one way or the other.

And IF you want to solder things beyond this limit, which do you think will work better? A tip with twice the thermal mass, which you can supercharge to 400C to make one joint? Or a tip with half the thermal mass, heat that up to 400C, then have a heater kick in marginally faster... a heater which isn't powerful enough to do the job and can only slow the rate of temp drop?


For now, I did another measurement on my 888 and want to stack things up.

888 heater resistance when set to 335C, unplugged and immediately recorded: 7.3R.
At 26V power supply, I'm going to adjust for the 1.2Vish drop across the triac, because the T12 clones use DC and FETs. And I dont' know how a real 951 works.
So 24.8V and 7.3R is 3.4A draw and power of 3.4A * 24.8V = 84W. Well, let's remove 2V for the TRIAC, and we still get 79W. I'm actually not exactly sure how to do this because it's AC.

The high voltage clone is almost 25V. So previous figure of 60ish W, we can boost to 65W for the Suhan clone, using 9.6R as the heater resistance while at temp. I assume the Suhan has a more powerful PSU than a 951, which is known to be 24V. I am not sure, but I think the 951 would run on AC and use a triac, too.

Just by pure power consumption, the 888 is more powerful than a 951 using clone tips. Of course it spends more of that power to heat the handle than the 951.

If anyone wants to measure the COLD resistance of the genuine T12 tip, that would be nice. The clones are about 8.0R. Note that the tip must be completely cold. If you reverse the DMM leads, you should get the same reading. Once there's a temp differential across the thermocouple, you will get a low reading one way and a high reading in the other.

And as you've only experienced T12 clones, you've NOT seen how the T12/T15 cartridge tip tech can truly perform (what it can do in a genuine Hakko).

I believe that there may be a big difference in the real 951 algorithm. In the tips, the thermocouple is attached to the heater. This means in the Suhan clone, for instance, you can see the heater switch on/off very rapidly even when the temp is still well below set temp. As soon as the heater turns on, the sensor is very quickly over the set point even though there is still a long ways to go. It would be curious to see if the 951 uses some sort of algorithm to improve on this.

[nanofrog]

In regard to specifications, the FX-951 is rated at 75W total power consumption, with 70W of it is for the iron (runs ~24VAC). Not huge difference in the element power consumption between them.

If the performance was on par however, I'm pretty sure someone on the forum would have called the FX-951 out on this. Not seen this though. So something must be going on that is improving its performance without requiring increased power.

And I'm more than just curious at this point.   

[thm_w]

If the FX951 is rated 70W that almost guarantees to me the tip resistance would be the same 8 ohms as the clones, cold at least.
That's slightly disappointing, but it would explain how a 40W Metcal is easily in the same league as a "70W" 951. As the effective power under load is similar.

I tested with my Quicko clone, heater resistance was 8 ohm cold to maybe 12 hot. Power supply is 24VDC.
Initially its pulling 72W and then drops down to ~10W idle or so. If you bump up the temperature or try to solder to a big chunk of brass, then it will pull 40-52W peak.

[KL27x]

To be fair, the current draw on the T12 clone tip I tested doesn't seem to go down with temp. The draw from cold start did not change, at all. Just a tad over 2.5A draw at 24V, from start to finish. The temp coefficient of the heater wire is practically zero. So while your Quicko clone has same voltage and cold resistance, the 951 (extrapolating from clone tip) could have 25 to 30% more power where it matters. The resistance doesn't seem to budge from effective 9.6ish. Of course this depends on what other losses are there. I suspect the 951 uses a TRIAC to switch power, no?

Also, compared to the higher power 888, the 951 will catch up a little at higher temp. I dunno what kind of temps people use for lead-free solder, but the higher the temp, the less powerful the 888 will get due to the positive temp coefficient of the 888 heater. It is possible that the 951 edges out the 888 in applied/effective power/thermal output at sufficiently high (but still practical) temps. But I wouldn't be inclined to believe it no matter how much more it costs or how many other people believe the 951 is a significant improvement (outside of the cold start time and handle heating).

[stj]

most people solder lead-free between 330 and 350

and i would be interested to see the pcb from a 951 because all the clones i'v seen use high freqency switched DC, they dont switch on the AC waveform.

[Marco]

Why not test this with a heatsink small enough that it doesn't just cause the iron to go full on? (I'm assuming it does.) The interesting part is the compliance and speed of the control loop, not what it does when control breaks down.

[KL27x]

@Marco, this heatsink is definitely small enough to test the thermal drop of the iron. It is definitely not even close to testing the max power output of either station. The board/heatsink is fully pre-heated by the time I dial in the final temp and take the measurements. I've already gone over the details. You can clearly see the heater LED on the Suhan and 888, and it is not "pegged" by a long shot. The handle of the 888 doesn't even get hot. Rough eyeball estimate is about 30% duty cycle on the heater. (888 with a slow and sufficient blink, Suhan with a hyperactive blink/intensity).

It would seem obvious that the T12 cartridge should theoretically be able to achieve at least a slightly lower thermal drop/gradient. It sounds good when you say it, anyway. But if there's a practical improvement, it is not evident in this test result. And personally, the way I understand the physics/thermodynamics, I think it is foolish to think there would be more than a marginal change.

Again, I think the speed of the test loop is somewhat of a false point to focus on. Why would anyone think opamps and comparators aren't FASTER than a microcontroller doing ADC reads?  And why would slowing this loop by way of increasing thermal mass be a con? The point of the iron is not to change from one temp to another very quickly. It's to not allow the temp to change. Other than saving cost of copper and decreasing the initial start time, there is no obvious benefit (to me) of decreasing thermal mass.

Smart PID:
Irons like the Blakjack have fast start algorithms. If the mass of the tip is known, you can get that tip to temp a little faster during start up because you know it is NOT touching anything in the interim. Once you start using the iron, the station does not directly know when you touch or remove the tip from a heatsink. Unless you are ok with some minor overshoot, you can't really do that much with software algorithms. And if you're ok with the overshoots, then what's the diff of just turning up the set temp a little? Until the sensor is accurate enough and the CPU fast enough to accurately estimate the current thermal load based on a tiny fraction of past history of temp and power consumption (say on the order of 10mS or less of past readings), any significant improvement via software algorithm of a soldering iron is mostly just marketing hype. In soldering, the thermal mass is not a constant and is not predictable. If an someone with more experience on PID wants to correct me, I'd be glad for the lesson. But a sou vid or reflow oven or water heater does not present the same challenges as does a soldering iron.

i would be interested to see the pcb from a 951 because all the clones i'v seen use high freqency switched DC, they dont switch on the AC waveform.

I am just guessing. AC has less electrolytic migration for longer heater life. Also easier to create low EMI. And transformer is more reliable than swtiching PSU in the long run. Most of the higher end stations run on AC. DC would be a downgrade, IMO. Clones use DC because switching PSU are very cheap, nowadays, and it's easier to implement on a small (cheap) board with no need for heatsink.

[Tarloth]

Sorry for revive this old post, I'm new to the forum but not to the electronics and please, forgive my bad english.

I'm very interested in this topic. I have a original Fx-888D Hakko and I very happy with it. When I compare with the 936's  clons from my friends,  this station performs better. Period.

In part I think that the tips are better (much better fit, finish and material) and heater has more power that clones. When I measure the total current consumed in same task by both, hakko delivers more power at first and less power to maintain, chinese copies deliver less power at first and more to maintain. I think that 888 has real 60 watts and copies 50 or much less.

But, If i use the original handle and tips with a good cloned drive, the results are similar to the real 888.

I believe the with correct handle (esd safe and good overall quality) and original cartridges  combined with a good DIY drive I can be near of a real Cartridge Solder Station.

I need soon a second handle with better ergonomics and smaller (if possible) than 888 handle. The economics in my country are very bad and one FX-251 plus taxes cost more that a regular person earn in two months! I can't afford now a brand new cartridge solder station and all small handles that I see has cartridge tips.

I'm not a fanatic of Hakko. JBC and PACE cartridge power (100+ watts!) would be very nice, but chinese market made zillions of Hakko clones and then it's easy to buy an acceptable T12 handle (perhaps change cable for better silicone and esd safe one) but never I'd did see a JBC clone handle in ebay.

I believe that Pace and JBC still uses AC in they irons and I really think that use AC straight from the transformer (Triacs)  it's better than PWM DC or rectified AC, but when I read the Hakko patents seems that T12 uses rectified AC.

Somebody with original FX-951 or similars can verified if T12 uses AC or uses rectified AC?

I really appreciate if somebody can confirm oscillogram from an original Hakko station. THANKS and sorry again for my bad english!

[KL27x]

heater has more power that clones.

The original 936 had only 24V transformer good for about 50W. The 888 has the 26V transformer for 70W rating. Many of the more modern clones also advertise 70W, now.
 

But, If i use the original handle and tips with a good cloned drive, the results are similar to the real 888.

I never tried that because all the clones I had have used a different connector. But this doesn't surprise me. Many people might assume the handpieces are essentially the same. But even if you put an original heater in a clone handpiece, I suspect more of the power would be used to heat up the handpiece vs the tip, due to the construction/materials. IMO, a lot of the value in the Hakko 888 is in the handpiece and the quality, selection, and low cost of the tips.

The T18/888 tips are also noticeably superior in thermal performance to the older 900M/936 tips. They figured out they could make the back of the tip shorter but thicker to improve the coupling to the heater/sensor without adding too much expensive copper.

Somebody with original FX-951 or similars can verified if T12 uses AC or uses rectified AC?

I really appreciate if somebody can confirm oscillogram from an original Hakko station. THANKS and sorry again for my bad english!

bump

[Terry01]

I use the 888 and think it's a great wee iron. I've never used one of the clone ones or one of the T-12's to compare.
I would recommend anyone to get the fx-888, just make sure it isn't a copy!

[Shock]

I'm not a fanatic of Hakko. JBC and PACE cartridge power (100+ watts!) would be very nice, but chinese market made zillions of Hakko clones and then it's easy to buy an acceptable T12 handle (perhaps change cable for better silicone and esd safe one) but never I'd did see a JBC clone handle in ebay.

I believe that Pace and JBC still uses AC in they irons and I really think that use AC straight from the transformer (Triacs)  it's better than PWM DC or rectified AC, but when I read the Hakko patents seems that T12 uses rectified AC.

In the new Pace ADS200 station (120W capable) for the heater supply they use ~30VDC pulses from an unbuffered mosfet bridge, so AC is rectified but not smoothed.

There are $200 JBC clones now as well but I wouldn't even bother, it's better to save up for the $200 genuine Pace if you want to run a station on the cheap. Pace tips are $11-13 for a USA made tip which makes China look expensive junk. Pace tends to be a little more expensive outside the US but still a 120W station.

As for Hakko FX-888 tips the genuine T18 outperforms the previous genuine 900M so I'd expect any clones to be varying grades inferior. Heaters to me don't matter so much as long as it can get up there but bad tips just suck and are time wasters.

[nanofrog]

...[snip]... bad tips just suck and are time wasters.

They're also a waste of money and cause lots of aggravation.

[stj]

since upgrading to a T12 based unit about 18 months ago, i'll never waste money on a removeable tip type iron again.

[Tarloth]

First of all, THANKS for all answers!

The original 936 had only 24V transformer good for about 50W. The 888 has the 26V transformer for 70W rating. Many of the more modern clones also advertise 70W, now.

Yes, but most of them LIES. If you measures the heater resistance never can pass 70 watts from transformer. The heater delivers 50 watts or least at maximum power. I'd tested some T12 clones and saw the same thing, all that I'd measured can deliver less power that original ones. I did't can measure Pace or JBC clones but I think that it's the same.

IMO, a lot of the value in the Hakko 888 is in the handpiece and the quality, selection, and low cost of the tips.

I totally agree, i believe that the station perse it's not exceptional, only robust and well made (not the interface!), the real goodness of this iron it's the handle+heater+tips. I did used the tips for years and they seems like new!

In the new Pace ADS200 station (120W capable) for the heater supply they use ~30VAC to an unbuffered mosfet bridge, so rectified but not smoothed.

Thanks for this very important data! Yes, the same that I see in the Hakko patents.

There are $200 JBC clones now as well but I wouldn't even bother

I agree, for few dollars more I buy real ones from another good brands!

... it's better to save up for the $200 genuine Pace if you want to run a station on the cheap....

Yes, I read carefully your post about you two solder stations and see the Dave review and I like it! If I live in USA probably buy Pace and if I live in Europe JBC.

My actual problem it's that everything that I import to my country pays almost $90-120 on shipping (good solder stations are heavy) and 50% in taxes for the price+shipping. A $250 station plus some cartridges (I use four or five diffferent shapes and sizes) plus shipping and taxes it's roughly $600 (250+50+100+200) and I can't afford it with this economical situation.

If I can buy only the cartridges this change everything. The shipping cost $15-25 and the final cost it's four times less. I have in my desk components for build any driver, toroid transformers and desk bases for the handles salvaged from previous stations. 

With Pace and JBC I not see copied handles in ebay. I can make one from aluminium in a CNC lathe and would be gorgeous but time demanding to prepare the program and resolve all issues for do only a one handle!. if I have not any other choice I do that, but seems like buy a "decent" T12 handle (with any connector)  make or buy a decent but cheap driver and buy original T12 cartridge tips would be a simplest and cheap solution.

since upgrading to a T12 based unit about 18 months ago, i'll never waste money on a removeable tip type iron again.

That's I see, most of forum members (include Dave :-) ) says that cartridge technology it's better and I believe that too.

I think that T18 series it's a very very good iron (at first 936 and for last few years 888d), my best circuits and developments (when I was young) was soldered with this solder tips  and had works always, but now I need a small handle like the cartridge solders use and prefer to add a cartridge solder station to the fx-888d. With cartridge system I thing that handle's quality it's less important than in 888.

[stj]

with cartridge systems the handle is just that,
i have seen people make their own with everything from lathes to 3d printers, and they all work the same, because they are just housings for a connector.

[Tarloth]

with cartridge systems the handle is just that,
i have seen people make their own with everything from lathes to 3d printers, and they all work the same, because they are just housings for a connector.

Thanks! I believe that too, only ergonomics and ESD precautions. I believe that "Some brand" Tip Cartridge system it's the way to go.

Now only I need to confirm if Hakko uses rectified (not filtered) AC in FX951 and decide between Pace, JBC and Hakko, the difference between cartridge cost it's great but not conclusive if I buy at first two or three only to try. It's a matter of how  easy to made/buy the handle is and power delivery.

[stj]

you could build the universal base,
then get whatever irons you want.

it's not a cheap build though!!
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7218

[nanofrog]

Now only I need to confirm if Hakko uses rectified (not filtered) AC in FX951 and decide between Pace, JBC and Hakko, the difference between cartridge cost it's great but not conclusive if I buy at first two or three only to try. It's a matter of how  easy to made/buy the handle is and power delivery.

A genuine Hakko FX-951 outputs 24VAC to the tips according to Hakko's specifications, so no rectification whatsoever.

FWIW, this is common for many years IME (i.e. Weller, Pace, JBC, Ersa, and Hakko).

[Tarloth]

you could build the universal base,
then get whatever irons you want.

it's not a cheap build though!!
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7218

I had read the entire post (50+ pages) and I really dislike the project. I respect all of his work and i'm grateful with him for open the design, but I think that it's over designed and some sections of design I not agree with the solution.

First, I not really need a "universal" solder station, eventually a need two different solder station for two handles.

If in any ocassion I need two different cartridge shapes (or sizes) at same times, I not like to connect and disconnect (I dislike even change the cartridge or the tip in T18). I need double command at same time. For example, if I need to use the standard T12 and the  micro iron from Hakko, they are two different hanles but rely in the same technology. Same exact controller.

Second, if I select a brand probably stay in this brand. For example, if I select Pace because  it's more convenient to me, then I make/buy two (or three) handles and then use all my cartridges when I need, not worry about which handle or which driver use. Why buy from different brands? KISS principle, all the accessories over the desk work together.

If I buy/make a "cheap" driver I can have two for few bucks  because I have just one free hand to solder. When one handle it's in standby the other draws power from a single transformer. Hakko do this with his unit's with two handles. It's easiest than change the cartridge and not so pricey. I prefer to use $15 in components and buy/make another driver that change tips all the time.  If I not need both at same time, then one handle and change cartridges, but again, why a universal driver if I only need a brand?

I think that user Arhi in DP prototype forum takes a smart approach few years ago. He did design a driver that works with different handles but populating or not some component in the board and use jumpers to change behaviour. based in which model of iron I have I can optimize the cost of the board.

I think that this is my best option and even I can reuse a thermostatic design that I did few years ago and change the software only.

[Tarloth]

A genuine Hakko FX-951 outputs 24VAC to the tips according to Hakko's specifications, so no rectification whatsoever.
FWIW, this is common for many years IME (i.e. Weller, Pace, JBC, Ersa, and Hakko).

Have you can measured it? If you measured it, I'm happy with this and use it. I used to think the same, my 888 uses AC and 936 uses AC and all that brands that I had measured uses AC, but I begun to doubt when I read the patent US 6,329,641 B1 from hakko that claims the control of unit using rectified AC. Shock measure his Pace station  and says that use the same but some user in a forum (that I not remember) says that JBC still use full AC. I prefer this, use AC, but If I make a controller need to know if rectify or not.

I really thanks all answers!

[nanofrog]

A genuine Hakko FX-951 outputs 24VAC to the tips according to Hakko's specifications, so no rectification whatsoever.
FWIW, this is common for many years IME (i.e. Weller, Pace, JBC, Ersa, and Hakko).

Have you can measured it? If you measured it, I'm happy with this and use it. I used to think the same, my 888 uses AC and 936 uses AC and all that brands that I had measured uses AC, but I begun to doubt when I read the patent US 6,329,641 B1 from hakko that claims the control of unit using rectified AC. Shock measure his Pace station  and says that use the same but some user in a forum (that I not remember) says that JBC still use full AC. I prefer this, use AC, but If I make a controller need to know if rectify or not.

I really thanks all answers!

I can't see why Hakko or any other major soldering station would lie about this (nothing more than a step-down transformer from rated mains to 24VAC). As per what you mention in terms of a patent, sure, there's a second tap on the transformer to feed the PCB/control board. This will pass through rectification at a bare minimum, but more likely through a buck converter of some sort to be sure the VDC output stays within an acceptable range for the PCB's control IC. 

That said, what goes to the control board is not the same as what's passed to the iron, let alone whether or not it's AC or DC. 

To be definitive, I don't have one to measure, but if you/we ask GreyWoolfe* nicely (he owns an FX-951), he might make a definitive measurement since you don't believe the manufacture's specs (not in their best interest to lie about this). 

BTW, keep in mind, Hakko is not a fly-by-night outfit looking to grab as much cash as they can in as short a period as possible through BS marketing. 

* FWIW I'll send him a PM and see if he's willing to prove to you Hakko's specs aren't a lie. 

[GreyWoolfe]

I measured a bit over 24 VAC.

[Tarloth]

Thanks Nanofrog! The only that worry me it's the wave at handle, that is if in the oscilloscope I see a full sine or a half sine. With this information I design all the circuits that I need and do the software or evaluate if a DIY driver it's apropiate or evaluate if a cheap chinese clon it's viable.

I really would like to feed the cartridge in the same conditions that was designed.

I measured a bit over 24 VAC.

THANKS for your answer!, GreyWoolfe you measure the signal or view it in the oscilloscope? If you view it, it's full sine or half sine i.e. full AC or rectified AC (rectified, not filtered).

Thanks again for your answers!

[GreyWoolfe]

Thanks Nanofrog! The only that worry me it's the wave at handle, that is if in the oscilloscope I see a full sine or a half sine. With this information I design all the circuits that I need and do the software or evaluate if a DIY driver it's apropiate or evaluate if a cheap chinese clon it's viable.

I really would like to feed the cartridge in the same conditions that was designed.

I measured a bit over 24 VAC.

THANKS for your answer!, GreyWoolfe you measure the signal or view it in the oscilloscope? If you view it, it's full sine or half sine i.e. full AC or rectified AC (rectified, not filtered).

Thanks again for your answers!

I measured with DMM.

[stj]

can your dmm give the frequency?
that should tell if it's rectified because the frequency would be line*2

[GreyWoolfe]

can your dmm give the frequency?
that should tell if it's rectified because the frequency would be line*2

No it can't, I used my HP 3466A, no frequency measurement.

[stj]

lol, Aneng for the win! 

[nanofrog]

can your dmm give the frequency?
that should tell if it's rectified because the frequency would be line*2

It's almost certainly directly from the transformer as most any other decent station is, so it'd be the same as mains. 60Hz in NA, 50Hz in your neck of the woods (and most of the planet in fact). 

Or is everyone going to continue to think Hakko like some fly-by-night, half-baked clone company that lies their butts off about the specs as they're only in it for a quick cash dash and vanish shortly thereafter? 

Seriously. If you believe Pace, Weller, and JBC's specs, then there's absolutely zero reason to doubt Hakko's. They've been around for decades, and are a go-to manufacturer for hand soldering/rework equipment.

[GreyWoolfe]

can your dmm give the frequency?
that should tell if it's rectified because the frequency would be line*2

It's almost certainly directly from the transformer as most any other decent station is, so it'd be the same as mains. 60Hz in NA, 50Hz in your neck of the woods (and most of the planet in fact). 

Or is everyone going to continue to think Hakko like some fly-by-night, half-baked clone company that lies their butts off about the specs as they're only in it for a quick cash dash and vanish shortly thereafter? 

Seriously. If you believe Pace, Weller, and JBC's specs, then there's absolutely zero reason to doubt Hakko's. They've been around for decades, and are a go-to manufacturer for hand soldering/rework equipment.

I went back and checked with my Aneng and it is 60Hz measured at the transformer.  Trying to do additional measurements at the connector solder points, I apparently touched something I shouldn't have and am getting a C-E, soldering iron error.  So far no luck on a schematic and I am no good at reverse engineering.  The search continues.  Thankfully, not my only soldering station.

I have had Hakko equipment since 2006, starting with a 936.  Certainly not a fly by night company.  They have to be doing something right.  They are the most copied/faked/cloned soldering stations around.

[nanofrog]

I went back and checked with my Aneng and it is 60Hz measured at the transformer.  Trying to do additional measurements at the connector solder points, I apparently touched something I shouldn't have and am getting a C-E, soldering iron error.  So far no luck on a schematic and I am no good at reverse engineering.  The search continues.  Thankfully, not my only soldering station.

Oh crap. 

Have you tried plugging the iron back in to see if the error goes away (simple enough it's worth a shot IMHO  )?

You may have to contact Hakko and see if they'll give you a schematic (Weller did that for me when I requested it).

[GreyWoolfe]

I went back and checked with my Aneng and it is 60Hz measured at the transformer.  Trying to do additional measurements at the connector solder points, I apparently touched something I shouldn't have and am getting a C-E, soldering iron error.  So far no luck on a schematic and I am no good at reverse engineering.  The search continues.  Thankfully, not my only soldering station.

Oh crap. 

Have you tried plugging the iron back in to see if the error goes away (simple enough it's worth a shot IMHO  )?

You may have to contact Hakko and see if they'll give you a schematic (Weller did that for me when I requested it).

I tried that and tried different tips also.  I will contact Hakko and see what they will do for me.  Also have line on 2 power supplies and a wand, working for a good price from a seller I have dealt with before. 

[Tarloth]

It's almost certainly directly from the transformer as most any other decent station is, so it'd be the same as mains. 60Hz in NA, 50Hz in your neck of the woods (and most of the planet in fact). 

Or is everyone going to continue to think Hakko like some fly-by-night, half-baked clone company that lies their butts off about the specs as they're only in it for a quick cash dash and vanish shortly thereafter? 

Seriously. If you believe Pace, Weller, and JBC's specs, then there's absolutely zero reason to doubt Hakko's. They've been around for decades, and are a go-to manufacturer for hand soldering/rework equipment.

Nanofrog, I not Think that Hakko be a half quality company or something like a clone. I respect they a LOT and I used their stations for years without any complain.

Soon I will need a smallest and ergonomic handle and thought to use the "new" cartridge system, but with my 888 I can solder anything that I need, I haven't  any complaint with Hakko, instead of that, I consider Hakko a great company in relation to cost/quality of their products.

My only doubt here it's that exist one patent from Hakko that apparently apply to FX-951 (by date, that patent not sayd 951) that claims that the control over cartridge would be AC rectified.

In none site Hakko claims that they uses "rectified AC for 951", but I like to confirm which one uses the T12 cartridges in Hakko because I like to use the same thing that Hakko uses for the design and in his station.

In other stations they use full AC and I prefer too use full AC for avoid EMI concerns and probably electromigration and progressive damage to the thermocouple. But what about if Hakko did detected damages in the T12 cartridge because full AC  affected the TC (for changes in polarity) and uses rectified AC? Remember that T12 has the TC in series with the heater, my 888 station has a thermistor in heater but independent. Because I don't know which Hakko uses, I need to power the T12 cartridge with the same waveform that they use in the 951 (or 950 or equivalent for T12/T15) station.

Because of that I ask if somebody can see waveform in oscilloscope for confirm waveform, nothing more, I not say that Hakko lie, I say that I not know which waveform uses Hakko.

...  Trying to do additional measurements at the connector solder points, I apparently touched something I shouldn't have and am getting a C-E, soldering iron error.  So far no luck on a schematic and I am no good at reverse engineering.  The search continues.  Thankfully, not my only soldering station.

I'm so sorry GreyWoolfe!!!!! I feel guilty! I never wanted that to happen to anyone!

I have had Hakko equipment since 2006, starting with a 936.  Certainly not a fly by night company.  They have to be doing something right.  They are the most copied/faked/cloned soldering stations around.

I think the same, Hakko it's the most copied brand and I think that it's better than other in price/benefits in general. When I bought my first Hakko station here, JBC doesn't exists (in Argentina) and Pace was so expensive that was miles ahead of my budget (15-20 times expensive that Hakko!) I has use this first solder station for years and years without an issue. My first option now it's continue to use Hakko (but I not be a blind fanatic). Today I have not the budget to buy a complete station, but I can buy the original Tips (and maybe the handle) use it with a compatible driver and in the future I buy the real original station and use the cartridges that I buy now. I not need the complete "power" of 951, with something that works similar to my 888 and have a small and ergonomic handle I'm very happy.

If for a well based motive I need to switch to JBC or Pace ok, I haven't problem, but Hakko is my first choice.   

[Tarloth]

I tried that and tried different tips also.  I will contact Hakko and see what they will do for me.  Also have line on 2 power supplies and a wand, working for a good price from a seller I have dealt with before. 

Crap!!!!! I hope everything gets resolved soon.

Do you have a seller that sells good used (or cloned) handles? I would be interesting to me if it accept to sell overseas.

[nanofrog]

I tried that and tried different tips also.  I will contact Hakko and see what they will do for me.

Good luck.  Hopefully they'll get you sorted (decent post sale support from what I've heard).

My only doubt here it's that exist one patent from Hakko that apparently apply to FX-951 (by date, that patent not sayd 951) that claims that the control over cartridge would be AC rectified.

Do you have a link to the patent info?

Unless it's portable for field use, there's no reason to use DC. So this ^ doesn't make any sense to me. 

But what about if Hakko did detected damages in the T12 cartridge because full AC  affected the TC (for changes in polarity) and uses rectified AC? Remember that T12 has the TC in series with the heater...[snip].

It's not a problem. JBC uses the same technique (heater coil is the thermocouple; it's cut and the two pieces are bonded together with a dissimilar metal to create the TC), and they're using AC as well.

Because of that I ask if somebody can see waveform in oscilloscope for confirm waveform, nothing more, I not say that Hakko lie, I say that I not know which waveform uses Hakko.

I suspect it checks the TC at the zero crossing point, then applies power if needed. JBC does it this way, and it's an elegant solution IMHO.

When I bought my first Hakko station here, JBC doesn't exists (in Argentina) and Pace was so expensive that was miles ahead of my budget (15-20 times expensive that Hakko!).

If for a well based motive I need to switch to JBC or Pace ok, I haven't problem, but Hakko is my first choice.

How expensive is the new Pace ADS200 to your door?

It's much less expensive than their other stations, their tips are excellent, and priced similarly to the T12/T15 series from Hakko. The iron is comfortable to use per owners, nor does it get hot despite being made from aluminum.

Performance wise, it will beat the FX-951 as it has a higher output (120W instead of just 70W for the FX-951). There's tips that can use that power as well that just aren't available for the Hakko. At least in the US, it's very similarly priced to the FX-951 so is a better choice at this point in time.

So I'd recommend shifting your sights to the Pace instead (seem to recall someone else made this recommendation as well).

[Tarloth]

Do you have a link to the patent info?

Of course! https://patents.google.com/patent/US6329641B1

Unless it's portable for field use, there's no reason to use DC. So this ^ doesn't make any sense to me. 

Not DC of course!, rectified AC that it's a complete different beast in noise generation when is switched to control the heater. The fourier transform of a DC PWM it's awful in armonics and generate a lot of noise.

It's not a problem. JBC uses the same technique (heater coil is the thermocouple; it's cut and the two pieces are bonded together with a dissimilar metal to create the TC), and they're using AC as well.

I agree, I think that it's no problem with full AC, but Shock see the waveform of his PACE and see rectified AC....Why? In the patent I see rectified AC, that bother me... WHY?? Before reading the patent I would have bet that they used AC!

I suspect it checks the TC at the zero crossing point, then applies power if needed. JBC does it this way, and it's an elegant solution IMHO.

Yes they see the TC at zero point crossing, it's a fact.

How expensive is the new Pace ADS200 to your door?

Local Pace dealer not have ADS200, but if I buy in USA and import to my country it's approx the same price that Hakko.   

It's much less expensive than their other stations, their tips are excellent, and priced similarly to the T12/T15 series from Hakko.

In fact, almost the same to me

The iron is comfortable to use per owners, nor does it get hot despite being made from aluminum.

In photographs I like the iron handle, seems nice and slender and I like the anodized aluminium more than plastics, but never did use it. Nevertheless I believe that it's good. JBC 245 handle (I believe was it that I try in a expo) it's very comfortable (superb) and I tried fm-2028 (in same expo) and it's very comfortable too. FM-2032 it's ideal but not offer some point shapes that I need, but it's a point favor to Hakko that the same station it's compatible with two different systems. I don't know it's something similar happens with Pace or JBC but I think that they resolved it too.
 

Performance wise, it will beat the FX-951 as it has a higher output (120W instead of just 70W for the FX-951). There's tips that can use that power as well that just aren't available for the Hakko. At least in the US, it's very similarly priced to the FX-951 so is a better choice at this point in time.

Yes, I suppose that PACE or JBC it's a better election because they have more power. I think the defects that Dave set in his video were corrected because it seemed like a software problem and not quality problem. Actually I not need more power than delivered from my 888 but it's interesting knows that it exist if would be necessary.

This is the only point that make me doubtet to continues with hakko, but, as I wrote in the first post, in favor to Hakko exist zillions of clons/counterfeits/compatible handles for nothing more than few dollars that permit me to use one of them with original cartridges and in the future buy the real 951 when economy will goes better. Even crappy T12 clones would be usefull to test a DIY driver (avoiding burn an original tip) and leave them aside until they are needed to melt plastic or engrave wood for a kid's school craft where one does never use an original tip :-).

With Pace or JBC I need to buy the original one or make one DIY and I think that clone tips are inexistents.

To sum up:

Points in favor to Hakko: I trust in the brand and they products, have a ton of different points and has two different handles for same standard and exist a lot of counterfeits parts to faciliate the construction and adjust of my DIY driver, use it with original tips meanwhile and in a while buy the original one.

Points in favor to JBC and Pace a lot more power.

Point in favor to Pace, cost less than JBC.

So I'd recommend shifting your sights to the Pace instead (seem to recall someone else made this recommendation as well).

I evaluating this at this moment, I'm not a blind fan of Hakko, but for something it's the brand more cloned, maybe because it is the most sought after brand and not the better? Sure, seems that JBC it's better (but pricey) and Pace it's comparable in price and seems better.  I don't believe that would be a marketing issue, here in Argentina Pace was since the beginning the most promoted brand and Hakko never promote his product but few people has Pace and a lot original Hakko.
I don't know really.

[Tarloth]

A year ago in other post KL27X ask to Pigrew ...

I'm curious. If you have a genuine Hakko FX950/51, have you noticed if the T12 is powered by AC/TRIAC or from DC/FET?

And Pigrew answer that he sees a Fet and remits to Greywolfe post. This implies rectified AC isn't it?

[nanofrog]

I agree, I think that it's no problem with full AC, but Shock see the waveform of his PACE and see rectified AC....Why? In the patent I see rectified AC, that bother me... WHY?? Before reading the patent I would have bet that they used AC!

Then that's how they've increased the mains frequency in order to shorten the sense & heat cycle. It would certainly allow for faster response and closer temp regulation.

Local Pace dealer not have ADS200, but if I buy in USA and import to my country it's approx the same price that Hakko.

I'd go with the Pace if it were me, even if you have to import it yourself.

Assuming you can of course, as although TEquipment will sell abroad, I recall a recent post they don't ship everywhere in South America due to too many lost packages in the nation mentioned (just can't recall which one, and there may well be others). So this issue alone may dictate which brand you end up with (availability issues  )

I've sent stuff to Brazil, and the recipiant explained there's a lot of loss/theft there too.

FM-2032 it's ideal but not offer some point shapes that I need, but it's a point favor to Hakko that the same station it's compatible with two different systems. I don't know it's something similar happens with Pace or JBC but I think that they resolved it too.

The FM-2032 is a micro iron meant for working under a microscope.

My current setup is Weller (built around the WD series), and have both a general purpose iron and a micro iron. I haven't used the micro iron in years, and I do have a stereo microscope. You'll find that manufacturers provide specialized tips for SMD work.

The vast majority of the time in my case however is done with a hoof/bevel. For IC's, I just select leaded packages and drag solder; you just need enough flux. You don't even have to change tips to pull bridges. For tacking in 30AWG bodge wires, I'll use a fine point bent conical.

If you're not all that familiar with this, look for the soldering tutorials by John Gammell on YouTube. He's a professional instructor, so no bad habits and such you'd find in a lot of others.
 

Yes, I suppose that PACE or JBC it's a better election because they have more power. I think the defects that Dave set in his video were corrected because it seemed like a software problem and not quality problem. Actually I not need more power than delivered from my 888 but it's interesting knows that it exist if would be necessary.

There was updated firmware released for the ADS200. In regard to the additional power, it comes in handy with large ground planes, tabs, and connectors for example. Most of the time you probably won't use all of it, but it's good to have when you do (no more tip stuck to the pad situations when a lesser iron hits it's limits).

This is the only point that make me doubtet to continues with hakko, but, as I wrote in the first post, in favor to Hakko exist zillions of clons/counterfeits/compatible handles for nothing more than few dollars that permit me to use one of them with original cartridges and in the future buy the real 951 when economy will goes better. Even crappy T12 clones would be usefull to test a DIY driver (avoiding burn an original tip) and leave them aside until they are needed to melt plastic or engrave wood for a kid's school craft where one does never use an original tip :-).

You won't get a true apples to apples comparison by using a clone vs. the genuine article though. Completely different electronics inside and almost certainly an undersized transformer.

But they are inexpensive, and they work (thinking of the Asian branded T12 stations, not an FX-951 clone). You may have to figure out something for a stand, as I doubt any of the irons they're using would fit the one that came with your FX-888.

With Pace or JBC I need to buy the original one or make one DIY and I think that clone tips are inexistents.

The tips for the ADS200 are just way too new, so definitely Pace only. But they're inexpensive (~$11 - 13 per for common profiles).

Given JBC's pricing, I'd stay away. They're ~$30 per for common shapes, and there's lifespan issues according to some owners here in the forum.

[Tarloth]

Then that's how they've increased the mains frequency in order to shorten the sense & heat cycle. It would certainly allow for faster response and closer temp regulation.

Mmmmm, from point of view of the heater power characterization (watts per fraction of second transmitted)  full wave AC and full rectified AC it's the same and from control point of view exist the same number of cross zero point's to measure the TC.

The difference it's that in rectified I can use any transistor with full blocked of power, and with full AC I need triac (or a bridge) and some triac permits some noise passing  near the zero point. If you not evaluate just at zero maybe see some noise. But use is rectified AC it's a bit noise than use full AC (but lot less noise than DC of course!).

If the point zero it's evaluated with an optocoupler you need to full rectify the AC that come to the opto LED or use an opto with two anti paralell LED and, in both cases, delay half the time of zero pulse to measure the TC. It's good to use an opto because it's isolated but you need to manage this time at software if you like a clean TC measurement. With triac it's mandatory, with transistor you can stop to conduce when the pulse starts and measure but you pay the penality of some low level high frequency noise (but is negligible if the heater induction it's low).

If you sense zero point with an resistor divider and comparator you not need to wait, zero is zero, but you not isolate from transformer AC (some comparator are isolators but pricey) . 

I'd go with the Pace if it were me, even if you have to import it yourself.

Assuming you can of course, as although TEquipment will sell abroad, I recall a recent post they don't ship everywhere in South America due to too many lost packages in the nation mentioned (just can't recall which one, and there may well be others). So this issue alone may dictate which brand you end up with (availability issues  )

I've sent stuff to Brazil, and the recipiant explained there's a lot of loss/theft there too.

That's it's a very good point. Here if I use postage with international tracking the package arrives perfect, but simple postage would be lost for months. I receive packages from china without tracking with a delay of eight months!. Courier it's one week at most. When I buy with DHL o FEDEX in USA, England or Germany I receive the package three to five days later. But courier it's pricey for two or three tips! I will ask to TEequipment if they send to Argentina and how. Good point to decide!

The FM-2032 is a micro iron meant for working under a microscope.

I need to work under microscope! If not, I would still use 888 until I have more money and buy the fx-951/ADS200/Some JBC for pleasure ;-) . For work under microscope I need a small (more ergonomic really) handle than mine and less distance to the point from my fingers.

FM-202X it's shorter than FX-8801 but FM-2032 it's shorter than both. TD-200 from Pace it's shorter than JBC equivalent (I think) but I believe that both are longer than 2032.

My current setup is Weller (built around the WD series), and have both a general purpose iron and a micro iron. I haven't used the micro iron in years, and I do have a stereo microscope. You'll find that manufacturers provide specialized tips for SMD work.

Yes, it's true,  I not need to use microscope for chips. I soldered they for years by hand and in reflow oven but I.m now designed a few PCB where I need to use very small passive components 0201 or smallest when exist,  and prefer to solder by hand under microscope. I can solder it with the 8801 and the most small tips, but I prefer to have smallest and more ergonomic handle.
 

You won't get a true apples to apples comparison by using a clone vs. the genuine article though. Completely different electronics inside and almost certainly an undersized transformer.

Yes I know, but with smallest component, power it's not an issue (anyway it's not an issue now with the 888) and if I use good toroidal transformer the limits would be at software level.

But they are inexpensive, and they work (thinking of the Asian branded T12 stations, not an FX-951 clone). You may have to figure out something for a stand, as I doubt any of the irons they're using would fit the one that came with your FX-888.

Yes, I see that and I love that Pace make their tips at a very low cost, very interesting price and a lot of options in heat transference and quality (diamond series for example). Stand isn't a problem, I can make a new one without problem or use (if fit) someone of the previous stations.

...Given JBC's pricing, I'd stay away. They're ~$30 per for common shapes, and there's lifespan issues according to some owners here in the forum.

I not knew about lifespan of JBC, a huge point against JBC. I thought that JBC was better than Hakko and Pace in all aspects :-(


THANKS AGAIN, I'm refined my search

[Shock]

I just looked at my ADS200 with the scope and it's 30V pulses at 100Hz (I'm on 240V 50Hz). The cartridges have two contacts, K type thermocouple in series and measure about 4.2 Ohms at roughly room temp. The cartridge barrel is earthed/grounded. So seems to add up if I do a quick and dirty power calculation. The heater is no way seeing full duty, most of the time from what I can see it's barely being worked at all.

The advantages really with the Pace, the iron is super comfy, cool, nonslip, accurate, powerful, quick heating, short working distance, no offsets or calibration, both micro and high mass tips (0.2mm to 8mm so far), great tip life and price, tweezers coming. On the station side of things there is going to be another firmware update based on feedback out soon, more configurable, single degree adjustable, no more large temp bounce.

[Shock]

FM-202X it's shorter than FX-8801 but FM-2032 it's shorter than both. TD-200 from Pace it's shorter than JBC equivalent (I think) but I believe that both are longer than 2032.

The Pace TD-200 iron (the one that comes with the ADS200) is 30mm from the handle edge to were the tip begins, identical to FM-2032. I don't know all the JBC irons but it's a noticeable shorter tip to work distance from a few I've seen.

With the Pace iron you can also grip right up on the very edge of the handle as well, it doesn't seem to get uncomfortable with the large tips either.

[nanofrog]

Shock: Do you have issues with flux spatter from cored solder singeing your fingers at that short a distance?

I ask as I still get splattered on occasion with my Weller irons (45 & 55mm for the WMP and WSP80 respectively). And although it's uncomfortable when it happens, I wouldn't trade the shorter distances as the additional degree of control is worth the compromise IMHO.  Just not sure if the extra loss of say 25mm makes it that much worse or not. 

If it's particularly bad, I'll put on a nitrile glove (I strap in as it were, so ESD's not been an issue). 

[Tarloth]

I just looked at my ADS200 with the scope and it's 30V pulses at 100Hz (I'm on 240V 50Hz).

THANKS!!!! Yes, I'm in 220v/50hz too, full rectified AC confirmed to Pace. Great!

The cartridges have two contacts, K type thermocouple in series and measure about 4.2 Ohms at roughly room temp. The cartridge barrel is earthed/grounded.

Same design that in Hakko (different TC only), TC series with heater resistance and ground to exterior tip covering (for ESD)?

The heater is no way seeing full duty, most of the time from what I can see it's barely being worked at all.

Of course, maybe at first 5 seconds after on.

The advantages really with the Pace, the iron is super comfy, cool, nonslip, accurate, powerful, quick heating, short working distance, no offsets or calibration, both micro and high mass tips (0.2mm to 8mm so far), great tip life and price, tweezers coming.

Agree, I see the same in the pictures of product. I'm more comfortable with full aluminium handle than plastic.

On the station side of things there is going to be another firmware update based on feedback out soon, more configurable, single degree adjustable, no more large temp bounce.

Interesting, it's upgradeable in by the user or it's necessary to send to Pace?

The Pace TD-200 iron (the one that comes with the ADS200) is 30mm from the handle edge to were the tip begins, identical to FM-2032. I don't know all the JBC irons but it's a noticeable shorter tip to work distance from a few I've seen.

That it's a surprise! In specs I read 1.8 inches from handle to cartridge point, that is 45 mm approx., 30mm it's great, the same length that micro from Hakko! Thats are very good news!

[Shock]

Do you have issues with flux spatter from cored solder singeing your fingers at that short a distance?

I mostly rework with rosin core SnPb so that probably makes a difference. But do I get spat on and burned? Yes but I don't pay it much attention. I think the longest continual session I've had since getting the two ADS200 is a couple of hours and it wasn't even on my mind. I probably burned my other hand more grabbing hot PCBs and components, either that or I choose to forget hehehe.

I did notice though the shorter tip and handle it's easier to keep the iron in your hand while moving things around.

[stj]

decent solder does not spit,
yours sounds like the flux-content is too high or badly formulated.

i have not had solder with spitting flux for maybe 20years!!

[Shock]

Same design that in Hakko (different TC only), TC series with heater resistance and ground to exterior tip covering (for ESD)?

From the manual:

These systems all meet or exceed the ANSI requirements for Soldered Electrical and Electronic Assemblies, J-STD-001.  Additionally they meet or exceed the requirements for electrostatic discharge set forth by ANSI/ESD S20.20.  Compliance with both of these standards is  ensured by testing up to 50 MHz using the methodology described in ANSI/ESD S13.1 2015.

Tip Temperature Range of 177 to 454°C (350 to 850°F).
Digital Readout Resolution: ±1° (°C or °F)
Tip Temperature Stability: ±1.1°C (2°F) when idle.
Temperature Accuracy: Meets or exceeds ANSI/J-STD-001

Looks like they updated the manual for the new firmware coming out.

Of course, maybe at first 5 seconds after on.

Many of the standard tips heat up in 3 seconds, the larger high performance ones take a little longer. You would be surprised at actually how little work the heater is doing.

Tip changes are 5 seconds and on par with JBC, however you don't need to use the stand to extract your tips or press it in twice to seat it, Pace use their Tip Tool instead.

Interesting, it's upgradeable in by the user or it's necessary to send to Pace?

Pace sends out a pop in replacement firmware with a chip puller.

[GreyWoolfe]

You may have to contact Hakko and see if they'll give you a schematic (Weller did that for me when I requested it).

Hakko wouldn't give me a schematic but gave me a copy of the manual to look at the troubleshooting guide .  However, I did score 2 power supplies and a wand in working order for $172 shipped.  If the original power supply is toasted, I have 2 supplies and 2 wands.  If the wand is toasted, I have 1 wand and 3 power supplies.  This means I will flog one of the power supplies on the Blog and see if anyone bites for a spare.  I also might be able to do some comparison checking and fix the wand.  Fortunately or unfortunately, the box won't arrive until Monday and I will be on vacation in Texas then.

Mrs GreyWoolfe and I are really looking forward to getting out of town.

[nanofrog]

I mostly rework with rosin core SnPb so that probably makes a difference.

Same here; I use 63/37 or 62/36/2 for what I do. I didn't think the alloy mattered, but I guess I should have mentioned this. 

FWIW, I do have a small roll of lead-free from AIM (Sn100c), but I've only used it for testing since I got it 3 years ago. 

decent solder does not spit,
yours sounds like the flux-content is too high or badly formulated.

i have not had solder with spitting flux for maybe 20years!!

FWIW, I've a mix of Kester (0.031"), Multicore (0.010"), RadioShack (0.022" for the 62/36/2, and 0.062" for the 60/40 which is very rarely used, and only to tin wire), and AIM (0.020"). They don't spit all that often, but do on occasion, with it getting worse the smaller the diameter you go IME.

I can't be certain who made the RadioShack 62/36/2 @ 0.022" as there were multiple suppliers (older stuff from the US, the later from Taiwan IIRC).

As per needing gloves, I've run into this working with the Multicore (this stuff is very fine). It's also used under closer quarters under a microscope using my micro iron, which probably doesn't help matters.

Hakko wouldn't give me a schematic but gave me a copy of the manual to look at the troubleshooting guide .  However, I did score 2 power supplies and a wand in working order for $172 shipped.  If the original power supply is toasted, I have 2 supplies and 2 wands.  If the wand is toasted, I have 1 wand and 3 power supplies.  This means I will flog one of the power supplies on the Blog and see if anyone bites for a spare.  I also might be able to do some comparison checking and fix the wand.  Fortunately or unfortunately, the box won't arrive until Monday and I will be on vacation in Texas then.

In regard to the assistance Hakko is willing to supply, that sucks. 

In regard to a damaged wand/iron/handle, I can't see how that would go wrong, as it's quite literally nothing more than a connector stuffed up into the back-end of a plastic stick. Zero electronics.

But with a working power unit, you'd be able to trace out what's gone wrong with the existing unit and possibly be able to fix it (so long as it's not the main IC; it's common enough, but you'd need to be able to program a new one should it be the issue*).

* Though it would be a perfect excuse to acquire a new toy to do just that. 

[KL27x]

you'd need to be able to program a new one should it be the issue*).

* Though it would be a perfect excuse to acquire a new toy to do just that. 

Fat chance that the firmware would be made available by Hakko. If the microcontroller died, the board is going to be impractical for anything but the garbage for most humans. Maybe the creator of the Unisolder would "just" whip up a custom modified firmware to fix one broken 951x... if he didn't value his time. Hopefully it is not the micro.

Greywoolfe: There is a very good chance that your station is fixable, and I bet you would receive a lot of assistance if/when you had time to post some pics. I doubt it would be a problem with the PSU, though. If the display lights up and says C-E, all the power is good, most likely. The 5V rail is powered from a 12/24V (probably 12V, single diode rectifier) rail that is tapped and rectified off the 24V transformer. So if it shows anything, the power rails are most probably all working. But first step would still be to scope the 5 and 12V rail. If there is a dead component or a short you might see an artifact/noise at 60Hz or whatnot. If the thing is fixable, it will be some transistor or small support part that is toasted on the main PCB. I would suspect the zero cross detection circuit, the sensor reading opamp circuit, the TRIAC driver and/or the TRIAC, itself. There is probably a thermistor in the handle of a genuine 951, but I don't think that would be easily damaged. But if you unscrewed the handpiece to get a point to probe, perhaps there could be a loose connection in there.

The difference it's that in rectified I can use any transistor with full blocked of power, and with full AC I need triac (or a bridge) and some triac permits some noise passing  near the zero point.

The main reason that full wave is preferable is EMI/noise that the device creates on the mains. As long as you are letting full waves through, there will be very little EMI to cause issues with your other devices plugged in on the same circuit. But there is theoretically also the issue of electrolytic migration of the heater/sensor metals. Using balanced AC, there should be very little. DC or rectified AC could theoretically cause migration of metal over time. Whether or not this would remotely be a limiting factor of cartridge life, who knows. There is always someone discussing the efficiency of a FET, particularly when switching at near zero. But a 20W light bulb draws more power than what's needed to solder, on average. Power efficiency is pretty much moot, IMO, unless talking about a battery powered iron.

[nanofrog]

Fat chance that the firmware would be made available by Hakko.

I wasn't talking about GreyWoolfe getting the code from Hakko, but rather extracting it from one of the fully functional power units he'll soon have on-hand once his package arrives. 

That said, I thought I was was clear in my previous post it's most likely a lot simpler, and even though Hakko isn't willing to offer him relevant schematics, should be quite doable via comparative measurements of a known working unit vs. his current unit (just as would be extracting the firmware in an absolute worst-case-scenario from a working unit).

My apologies that this wasn't explicitly clear (I thought it was). 

[Tarloth]

Hi! If the unit show something inteligible in the segmented LED probably the uC it's ok and I think that the problem it's at the opamp of the TC o thermistor. C-E it's a problem "in the iron" and I think that board can't measure the TC or thermistor and handle. Maybe a short circuit between 30 volts and thermistor pin blow up the opamp that reads that resistor.

Greywolfe, I really sorry about this accident! But in this moments I believe if the makers will be publish a copy of the schematics of electronics tools (years ago all serious makers did that), everybody can diagnose and repair the problem byself in seconds! Somebody that have one of this station isn't a person to send a "Copy of Manual". Point against all the sellers.

The main reason that full wave is preferable is EMI/noise that the device creates on the mains.

Yes, I wrote this in a previous post, in that post I talking about the difference in the circuit to measure the TC only. I prefer AC, but seems that it's not used anymore.

[Tarloth]

Pace sends out a pop in replacement firmware with a chip puller.

It's a point in favor of Pace because it's responsible about their products and this is VERY GOOD, but at same has three big point against (to me)

* Launch to world a product not sufficiently tested.I saw in this forum complaints about delays in deliver in cartridge tips and stations for errors detected after launching. I thought that all issues were corrected today but some new firmware would be launched with more "enhanceds"?. This is not a wifi router, it's a tool, one month more of tests in house before launch or a rented user test (maybe experts from this forum?)  could been eliminated almost all the errors that I see related.

* Send a new memory chip was cool 20 years behind but not now. Or the maker test exhaustively their producto until any error would be eliminated (almost 99%) o includes a method to upgrade the firmware easily. Any modern microcontroller has any form of firmware update without use a special programmer. A buyer of this unit (and not a cheap hakko counterfeit) surely knows how update a firmware.

( By the way, which microcontroller they uses that need a separate memory? Or they change the complete microcontroller? t's not a complaint, only curiosity)

* Overseas buyer, my case, at least until I did read this about the firmware that worries me. I had been convinced to buy Pace before reading this post! But I know by a lot of experience that makers in general don't send physical upgrades outside USA. It's very expensive and in some cases had regulations against this. If the local dealer it's authorized then they send it, and it's ok, but most of cases exists problems with models that are selled in one region and not in other and a unit imported from USA not necessarily is supported by a local representative. Years ago we have problems with Agilent oscilloscopes buyed in USA with an error and local representative (or Agilent) never recognized here the problem! Even I had a similar problem with Nikon and in both cases we need to send the product again to USA.

At this point I have two options. Wait for one year after the last firmware upgrade until virtually all the bugs was cleaned or ask the local representative to import it to Argentina (I just sent them an email to see what they say about this) and also ask if they assure me that it will provide "immediate" technical service if something happens (two weeks it's ok, more not). I have read here problems with JBC stations in European users that were sent their stations to repair (in warranty periode) for a common error and two months later had not yet been returned!

I will meditate this.

[Shock]

Lets not get too excited. You are talking old news, a handful of units had a tolerance problem, immediately corrected before it was even distributed worldwide. The current shipped firmware 1.2 is stable, I know because I'm using it. A firmware update is that, it's an update. This station only started shipping a few months ago. Pace has excellent customer service and would do their best to get a firmware to you if required.

Pace also appears to have two distributors in Argentina
https://www.paceworldwide.com/where-to-buy/reps-and-distributors/south_america#ARGENTINA

As for the brains of the operation it's an Atmel 8 bit micro and firmware is on the same chip. The advantage is if the micro dies some how, it's easily replaced and even easier if you have an old firmware revision laying around. You will be back up in seconds, on other brands good luck.

[KL27x]

I wasn't talking about GreyWoolfe getting the code from Hakko, but rather extracting it from one of the fully functional power units he'll soon have on-hand once his package arrives. 

I'm genuinely confused at this. Why would Greywoolfe receive a microcontroller from Hakko when he purchased what he describes as 2 PSU's and 1 new handle per his post? But even more puzzling, even if "PSU" includes the brainbox, why would you think Hakko will use microcontrollers without enabling read protection? I wouldn't think this is likely enough to even try, unless the company publishes the hex or source code. And in that case, I would download it from their website. And if these 2 boards he purchased are "fully functional" why would he buy a hardware programmer to extract the firmware hex and flash a new chip and replace that chip on his existing board... when he would already have not one but two completely functional replacement boards to swap for the faulty one?

Pace ADS200 is a good example, here. If they didn't mind to share their code, they would just host the latest firmware on their site. Not all their customers would have the ability to use it. But may people could, and it would reduce their costs. The reason they send you an entire chip at considerable time and cost is so they can keep their firmware proprietary. For all the talk about how easy it is to crack a protected chip with decapping and whatnot, I think the time and $$, and frankly the illegality of seeking black market services and doing this, is still a significant deterrent. No one would do that without intent to sell clones to make money... which means they would have money for Pace's lawyers to come after. Whereas any dumbass friend of a friend who gets emailed a copy of the firmware can end up publishing it online for shigs and tiggles. And that dude could be completely broke. Even if he makes not a cent, this could damage Pace's brand with lots of little fish too small to go after, making and even selling subpar stations with what may eventually turn out to be buggy, subpar code, damaging the brand. Barring very simple firmware for micros that do basic functions to replace multiple logic chips, or the like, I don't suspect it will be very common for a company to leave a micro unlocked unless they are hosting the latest firmware on their website. Especially for something so simple and with no moving parts, like a soldering station.

[nanofrog]

I'm genuinely confused at this. Why would Greywoolfe receive a microcontroller from Hakko when he purchased what he describes as 2 PSU's and 1 new handle per his post? But even more puzzling, even if "PSU" includes the brainbox, why would you think Hakko will use microcontrollers without enabling read protection?

PSU = main power unit is how I interpreted it.

As per copying the code from a working unit, flashing a new chip, and installing it in a unit with a dead uC, it would allow it to be kept as a spare, or in this case, sold or traded.

[Shock]

What KL27x means is most prudent companies tend to fuse/lock their code so there is no way to dump it. I'm not familiar with Hakkos PCBs but having been counterfeited they should be quite weary of leaving code that can be easily dumped and run on a counterfeit controller or be debugged.

[rsjsouza]

Since the talk is about soldering...  Have anybody ever tested the FX-8805 wand with T19 tips on a FX-888D?

Also, what is the difference between T18 and T19 tips? A very small graph on the FX-888D/FX-889 compatible wands FX-8801/FX8805 shows a slight edge for the T19 in heating time, but I wonder if it has better thermal capacity.

[Shock]

Since the talk is about soldering...

The 936 had the 907 or 908 iron (or you could run a 907 conversion) and had 900M and 900L (L for large) tips so I assume this is the newer equivalent T18 and then the T19 which have more thermal capacity. Pricey though at almost $13 a tip.

[GreyWoolfe]

There is probably a thermistor in the handle of a genuine 951, but I don't think that would be easily damaged. But if you unscrewed the handpiece to get a point to probe, perhaps there could be a loose connection in there.

There is a thermistor in the handle.  I stuck some probes on it and measured about 24K\$\Omega\$.  I didn't apply heat to it yet to see if it changes.  I don't know if that is a proper measurement as I can't read the part number, it is behind one of the solder tabs.  I will have to remove it to get the part number to look up the datasheet.  I will try to do a continuity test on the pins/wires of the wand after work tonight as well as get the part number.  I don't like getting wrapped up in doing something and then work gets in the way and pulls me off of what I am doing, the company does expect me to earn my paycheck.   I will try to post some pics of the board.  I have a decent camera but no macro lens so I will have play around to try to get the best pics I can.

[Tarloth]

...I stuck some probes on it and measured about 24K\$\Omega\$.  I didn't apply heat to it yet to see if it changes. ...

In two places I read that it's a 6K8 thermistor

Since the talk is about soldering...  Have anybody ever tested the FX-8805 wand with T19 tips on a FX-888D?

Yes, a friend have it and work without problem or any change, Hakko says that are compatible https://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fx8801_8805.html

What KL27x means is most prudent companies tend to fuse/lock their code so there is no way to dump it. I'm not familiar with Hakkos PCBs but having been counterfeited they should be quite weary of leaving code that can be easily dumped and run on a counterfeit controller or be debugged.

As far as I know, counterfeits and clones uses a different microcontroller , different brand even. I think that software in chinese ones have nothing to do with the hakko software, but I'm not sure of course. 

[GreyWoolfe]

...I stuck some probes on it and measured about 24K\$\Omega\$.  I didn't apply heat to it yet to see if it changes. ...

In two places I read that it's a 6K8 thermistor

Well, I guess that it is bad, maybe.  I will get a part number and double check before I order a replacement.  Hopefully, that means the power supply survived.

EDIT: removed the thermistor.  It says 104 on it.  A google search of 104 thermistor says it could be 100K or 10K.   It measures 3.2 mm.  I will have to measure the thermistor in the new wand to be sure.  I will check pin to pin later to see if anything is open.  I also didn't realize that I was measuring the thermistor with the wand connected.  I measured it in hand and it was 3M2R.  I'm sure it is bad!  I'm betting the wand is salvageable if I can get the right value.

EDIT again--forgot the pic I took.

[Tarloth]

I believe that it's 10K at 25 centigrade degrees and 6.8K when it's measured with the iron ON or in the hand (at 34-36 degrees). This confirm that I did read in other forums.
https://www.littelfuse.com/products/temperature-sensors/leaded-thermistors/glass-encapsulated-thermistors/do-35-ul-recognized-usug1000.aspx

The TR in the link has a max power rating of 20mW. At 30Volt any value under 50K would be fried. I hope that it had acted as a fuse and not had affected the circuit board.

[stj]

thats a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor!

[GreyWoolfe]

thats a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor!

If it is a cap, it measured 79.9 nF on my DE-5000. 

[Tarloth]

Yes, it's seem that a capacitor but I have thermistors that look exactly the same.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/hakko-t12-pinout/

[Tarloth]

Some chinese seller says that it it's a thermistor and offer their counterfeit handle with it.

[stj]

the thermisters i'v seen in irons look like a small-signal diode.

[GreyWoolfe]

I sent a reply to the gentleman from Hakko who couldn't give me the schematic and asked if he could at least tell me what the component is and the part number/value.  We will see if I have success with that.  Hopefully, that won't violate proprietary information.

[stj]

personally, i would be so pissed off that i would generate a complete schematic and spread it, followed by looking at the mcu, although i think they use a Richoh chip and info on those is slim.

[Tarloth]

personally, i would be so pissed off that i would generate a complete schematic and spread it, followed by looking at the mcu, although i think they use a Richoh chip and info on those is slim.

I agree!. A complete scheme would be great in many ways and I also think it would have several positive effects:

a) Definitive guide between the pirate copies and the original one, although, making a diagram of which components are in each place of the plate already it's enough in this sense.

b) Repair guide! Although, in their favor I see few people who have problems/complains with the 951 in the forums.

c) The most important for me: clones that would be use exactly the same analog circuit would begin to appear, except, of course, the microcontroller. That is already a huge improvement with respect to today situation, there are hundreds of different circuits of T12 solders and a priori it is not known which is better. In this way it would be simpler, the Chinese clon with the same schematic in principle is the most reliable (never like the original of course). Eventually you have to replace some component of poor quality, but in general lines the quality of the copy would be more evaluable.

With regard to this last point, when the complete schemes of the 936 appeared years ago, at the same time there appeared lots of identical copies with different brands (with worse transformers and poor quality components) but the "current" copy of the 936 for 15 dollars is generally between acceptable and reasonably good for beginners. When copies get better, appear "brands" and  then evolve by themselves and separate from the "circuit" offered by a small a semi-homey sellers, improving the different parts and offering new models even.


I do not know if it is directly related, but for the same dates Hakko modernized the 936 and pulled out a somewhat better version to be separated from those clones. Maybe, it would be Pure Darwinism.

This does not mean that Hakko stops selling, on the contrary! It happens that in any case the Chinese copy does not have the same certifications, performance, robustness or ergonomics, the professional will continue buying original because it is a tool for him and its cost is ridiculous in the face of the improvement in the performance of his work.

But then the copied product appears as a reasonable alternative to the beginner or amateur, with few resources or very temporary use that never would be buy the original, which at least could have a temperature-controlled soldering station instead of the old fixed soldering iron connected to the wall.

When I buyed my 888D I never hesitated between buying Hakko or a clone, but when I donated for my son's school several solder stations for "robotics" I buy a very acceptable 936's clon.

I need a better handle than the 8801 and I convinced that cartridge system from Hakko, Pace, JBC and others are the way, but meanwhile the economics in my country get better I can buy the original cartridge and stay for a time with a clon/diy driver and when buy a real one station in the future I just have the tips and I can donate the driver to somebody that need it. But I have very clear that in the near future I need to buy the original and a clon not would be sufficient.

If now I could see a schematics of 951 I would do my own version and would stop to evaluate clones or would stop doubt about the better way to power the cartridge to avoid internal damages to it, but still be thinking in buy the real one soon.

[Tarloth]

Shock:

Have you know the differences between TD-100 and TD-200 handles and if the tips are interchanged? Thanks

[Shock]

Shock:

Have you know the differences between TD-100 and TD-200 handles and if the tips are interchanged? Thanks

The Pace MBT, WJS and ST "Intelliheat" stations have a TD-100 which is the original plastic iron/handle. Pace also has just released the TD-100a which is the newer redesigned silver aluminum version of the same iron, they both can use the same tips.

The Pace ADS200 "Accudrive" has the TD-200 blue aluminum iron/handle and uses the newer blue series tips with the K type thermocouple. Because of technology differences the tips between series are not interchangeable.

[GreyWoolfe]

So the saga continues.  I heard back from the person at Hakko.  I understand that I have a New Jersey accent but I didn't think it comes out in my typing.
I simply wanted to know the type of component and the value/part number that is in the wand.  This is what he sent--We do have the Replacement Receptacle for the face of the unit , However this part is not sold alone it is sold as a whole Front Panel Assembly with the PCB, Front Panel , And buttons.    Not sure of the extrapolation there to get from wand component to replacement receptacle.

I have reiterated my needs, hopefully as clear, concise and accent free as possible with small enough words that I might actually be understood.  Mrs GreyWoolfe has argued the point in the past that I will never be completely understood.  Not sure what she is trying to say.

Maybe I should start a new thread in the repair section as this appears to be turning into a journey.  Time to buckle up the seat belt and keep my hands and feet inside the vehicle.

[KL27x]

If you are not confident what you are doing, perhaps just wait until the new parts arrive and try swapping them in/out.

CE error, per the manual, is when the soldering station detects fault of the wand. Hopefully it is just a loose connection or something else very easy.

I think there is a lot of confusion over what are these 2 power supplies you scored. A wand from hakko, all by itself, is close to $100.00. I have no clue what these 2 power supplies are that you bought for 35-40 each. I have never seen the inside of a 951, but I would have guessed there's a 24V transformer in it. Then a half bridge rectifier, some caps, and a 5V linear regulator. All on the main PCB. I am curious to see if/when you get a chance to post some pics of the innards.

although i think they use a Richoh chip

I have heard they use a Renasas chip in the 888D. I think it has internal house marking on it, so I have not looked up a datasheet. You can't even purchase many of these industrial micros outside of large quantity orders, even if you had the firmware/hex. And dev tools like hardware programmer/software are perhaps not very simple or cheap.

[Tarloth]

Thanks Shock for your patience. The only local distributor in Argentina (the other one it's closed since ever) told me that they only import ST25 but Tequipment answer that they could sell to Argentina. I need to think now.

[GreyWoolfe]

If you are not confident what you are doing, perhaps just wait until the new parts arrive and try swapping them in/out.

CE error, per the manual, is when the soldering station detects fault of the wand. Hopefully it is just a loose connection or something else very easy.

I think there is a lot of confusion over what are these 2 power supplies you scored. A wand from hakko, all by itself, is close to $100.00. I have no clue what these 2 power supplies are that you bought for 35-40 each.

It's not so much confidence, it's not really knowing what the part in the wand is.  I would have thought a thermistor but someone said it looks like a .1uF ceramic capacitor.  If it is a thermistor, it's bad, the resistance measured in the meg ohms.  If it is a .1uF capacitor, it is bad as it measured ~77 nF.  I don't want to play guess the component and possibly make things worse.  I am hoping that it won't be a difficult thing to give me what type of part it is and its value/part number.  I plan on testing the new wand in the old power supply and the old wand in the new power supplies.  I also plan to take measurements of the part in the working wand if Hakko won't supply the information I am asking for to try to determine what it is.  If I can't figure it out, maybe someone here could give an educated guess based on what information I will supply

  The seller is one I have a lot of experience with.  It is a surplus store that used to have a brick and mortar store the next town over.  They closed the store and are strictly doing online sales/auctions.  I have bought numerous things when the store was open including a number of large LCD monitors, old computers, an HP 3466A DMM, an HP function generator and a Tektronix 2465, all in working condition.  They had a post for a pair of used working FX-951 power supplies with 1 wand.  They are tested but stated that they couldn't change the temp because they don't have the key and they have a  14 day warranty.  I can make keys for them.  They were posted for a price of $199 and I offered $150, which was accepted.

EDIT:  My faith in humanity has been restored.  The gentlemen from Hakko, Kyle is his name, let me know that they have an assembly that consists of the socket (I am guessing for the tip) and thermistor condenser (his terminology) together for $7.95 and he has one on hand.  Now working on getting payment and shipping information to him so I can get the part and fix my wand.  Hopefully, that is all that is damaged.

[stj]

i seriously doubt it's going to fix it, my bet is on the controller pcb.
have you looked at it yet, for anything obvious like burned tracks or burned resistors / semiconductors?

[GreyWoolfe]

i seriously doubt it's going to fix it, my bet is on the controller pcb.
have you looked at it yet, for anything obvious like burned tracks or burned resistors / semiconductors?

I looked at the board with my headset magnifier.  There is nothing obvious.  It may be both. 

[GreyWoolfe]

UPDATE:The package with the power supplies and wand showed up at the door.  I plugged the new wand into the old power supply and the power supply started warming up.  It seems that it is the wand that is the issue.  I am still waiting to hear from Kyle at Hakko on how to pay for the socket assembly to fix the original wand.  I tested the 2 power supplies and they work as they should.  I just have some tape residue to remove from them, otherwise they and the wand cleaned up well.  The wand came with a T-15 IL conical tip that appears to be a bit abused as it has a slight curve to it and it is not a curved tip.  That might be useful for smd soldering, maybe.

Now that I know the original power supply works and the 2 I bought work, I will probably let 1 go for a decent price.  If anyone is interested, send me a PM.

[Tarloth]

It makes me happy that you have been able to solve the issue since "thermistor condenser" costs just cents :-).

[GreyWoolfe]

It makes me happy that you have been able to solve the issue since "thermistor condenser" costs just cents :-).

Me too.  Came to $13.67 as the order was under $25 for the free shipping so I had to pay $6.  Cheaper than a new wand, that's for sure.

[Tarloth]

If they send you the connector for the back of the tips that is inside the handle can you take some photographs? Probably I need to made one 

[GreyWoolfe]

If they send you the connector for the back of the tips that is inside the handle can you take some photographs? Probably I need to made one 

The part number is for the connector with the thermistor.  When it comes in, I can take pictures and post them.  Not sure when it will be here.  I just paid for it about an hour and a half ago.  It should go out today, but Mrs GreyWoolfe and I are leaving early Saturday for vacation for a week.  That will place things on hold for awhile. 

[nanofrog]

Glad it was something simple, and you'll soon have it fixed. 

And enjoy your vacation. 

[GreyWoolfe]

Glad it was something simple, and you'll soon have it fixed. 

And enjoy your vacation. 

Turned out not so simple and a PITA to boot.  The connector came in, I replaced the connector and still saw the error.  I put it aside for awhile and revisited it today.  Turns out the thermistor wasn't the issue.  I did a better job of measuring the resistance of the thermistors in the bad wand, the good wand and the new connector.  All read Meg Ohms of resistance.  It was the LED in the wand that was burned out.  Took quite a bit of effort with my big old woolfe paws to remove/replace the LED and rewire the connector.  The LED is no where near as bright as the one in the extra wand that I bought but there is no errors and it is working as it should.  On top of that, since I never really paid attention to the LED in the wand before, I tried a white and still got the error.  I tried green for good and once I figured out the polarity, just rigging it up, it worked.  Turns out the original LED is red.  That is another thing.  LEDs have the flat spot so you know the polarity.  Not this one.  The flat side was in between the 2 leads.  Anyway, I am a happy Woolfe.

[Tarloth]

Bravo! But the FX-951 manage the LED on/off when it's warming or simply put in ON state always? Thanks for all of this information!

[Shock]

Good to know you got it going again, so you probably shorted the pin with the LED on it to the iron supply. Just found this here on the forums.

[nanofrog]

Turned out not so simple and a PITA to boot.  The connector came in, I replaced the connector and still saw the error.  I put it aside for awhile and revisited it today.  Turns out the thermistor wasn't the issue.  I did a better job of measuring the resistance of the thermistors in the bad wand, the good wand and the new connector.  All read Meg Ohms of resistance.  It was the LED in the wand that was burned out.  Took quite a bit of effort with my big old woolfe paws to remove/replace the LED and rewire the connector.  The LED is no where near as bright as the one in the extra wand that I bought but there is no errors and it is working as it should.  On top of that, since I never really paid attention to the LED in the wand before, I tried a white and still got the error.  I tried green for good and once I figured out the polarity, just rigging it up, it worked.  Turns out the original LED is red.  That is another thing.  LEDs have the flat spot so you know the polarity.  Not this one.  The flat side was in between the 2 leads.  Anyway, I am a happy Woolfe.

Glad you got it working again. 

They updated the handle minus the red LED (yellow plastic ring), and gave it a new P/N (FM-2028).

[Shock]

They updated the handle minus the red LED (yellow plastic ring), and gave it a new P/N (FM-2028).

As far as I'm aware the 2027/2028 is a regional difference the same as the T12 vs T15 tips or the different colors of FX-888 and FX-888D.

[GreyWoolfe]

Good to know you got it going again, so you probably shorted the pin with the LED on it to the iron supply. Just found this here on the forums.

What is missing out of this diagram is the LED that is connected to a blue wire and and soldered to the same pin as the black wire.  Some sort of pass/fail for the iron-good tip, LED lights and a good signal is sent, bad tip, LED doesn't light and no signal sent.  With the LED blown, it was in a constant state of fail. The tip I received with the wand I bought with the 2 power supplies turned out to be defective and the LED didn't light.  The blue wire is pin 6 on the connector.

Glad you got it working again. 

They updated the handle minus the red LED (yellow plastic ring), and gave it a new P/N
[/quote]

Makes you wonder if there were issues with the LED failing and so it was removed.  Hmmmmmm.

Shock, between your diagram and my little bit of information, hopefully this will provide a start for anyone troubleshooting a C-E error on an FX-951 with the FM-2027 wand.

EDIT: OK, maybe I am wrong on this.  No tip/bad tip is an S-E error.  I still think is it some sort of pass/fail.  It might be that the connection between the black wire (ground) and the blue wire through the LED provides some sort of feedback loop that a good wand is inserted into the power supply.  Bad LED, no feedback  loop.  The power supply then sees a defective wand. Also, I apparently wasn't really paying attention as the LED will light without a tip in the wand.

I should have been paying better attention to details.  Sometimes, I am NOT smarter than a 5th grader.

[Shock]

C-E Connector Cord Error
S-E Sensor or Heater

I think that diagram came from another station but it's going to be a similar scenario. I checked the FM-203 manual it has a bit more details than the FX-951 on the FM2027 iron.

But yeah it will make it easier for the next person for sure.

[Tarloth]

As far as I read, the Fm-2027 and the FM-2028 differ fairly in the existence and handling of the LED, in the FX-951 the 2027 turns on the LED but does not show the activity of the soldering iron while in the Fm-20X yes. Incidentally, I think it is a backward step, it is preferable the LED to the buzzer!

https://www.hakko.com/english/maintenance/topic_fm_fx_series01.html

[GreyWoolfe]

Nice find on that link.  i have bookmarked it for reference.That would explain why the light in the wand is lit without a tip in the FX-951.

[stj]

the led was not intended for the FX951 afaik,
in the station it's intended for, it indicates the iron is up to temp i think.

it's a nice idea, i thought about putting an led and dropper resistor in parallel with the element in older irons once - to save looking down at the led on the base.

[Tarloth]

it's a nice idea, i thought about putting an led and dropper resistor in parallel with the element in older irons once - to save looking down at the led on the base.

Yes, I agree, it's more practical a light in the visual field than a buzzer or a light in the base station.

[leStoppe]

Tested on the tip sensor, the set temp of the Bakon measured 323C. The hakko 314C. Swapped between each iron repeatedly until I was satisfied these readings were repeatable. These readings were rock solid, change of only 1 degree max between measurements.

I understood the intent of this test, basically it's testing how well each iron type can hold temperature with changing thermal mass. The T12 cartridge with a tighter sensor/heater coupling was expected to hold it better but @KL27x 's data suggests otherwise.

Could we do the test again, but in reverse? i.e. Set the tip temperatures to the same value and then see how much it drops to when brought in contact with the heatsink. My reasoning is:

A PID control would increase the power delivered to minimize the error from setpoint. This way the error (measured temp vs set point temp) would be same between setups. Whichever tool can deliver power better would show less temperature drop.

[KL27x]

The T12 tip with the sensor-coupling error is expected to do worse. And it does.
If set to the same temp, the T12 clones will sag more. It's the same thing, no matter if you look at it from the top or the bottom.

That's the problem with the cheap T12 clones. At least the two I have do no error correction. Without any attempt to do that, there's no way a T12 iron can match the temperature control of an old 888 iron. I'm curious if the more expensive offbrand/clones makes any attempt to perform error correction, even?

If you want a good iron, don't believe BS marketing hype. If you don't solder a lot, then I guess you can choose to believe w/e you want, and it won't hurt you.

[leStoppe]

The T12 tip with the sensor-coupling error is expected to do worse. And it does.

I didn't understand this, shouldn't the T12 have better coupling and therefore reduced error?

That's the problem with the cheap T12 clones. At least the two I have do no error correction. Without any attempt to do that, there's no way a T12 iron can match the temperature control of an old 888 iron.

Are you referring to the calibration in the station. I'm not following the hype but I'm curious because I've designed and built an 888D style station, gathering a lot of char data in the process. I don't have any data on the T12s though.

[Hohn]

Let's back up a second to ponder what this test actually shows. It is showing that two different irons require slightly different *set* temperatures to attain an equilibrium temperature on the double sided heat sink of approximately 200C. Nothing less, and nothing more.

This could of course just be a simple calibration issue as each tip temperature. Contrary to KL27x's assertion, the actual calibration of each station matters because the energy delivery is directly a function of the temperature delta. The hotter tip temp (actual temp, not displayed point) holds more heat (thermal mass). But more importantly, it determines the forcible power delivered to the heating element by the controller logic. Basic PID thinking shows that you can't get a 60w station or iron to use all 60w to recover from just a 10 or 20 degree temperature drop.

Incidentally, this flaw of relying on set temperature was present in Dave's testing also.

What I have learned from a lot of testing is this: at low temperature setpoints, the station itself matters almost zero because there isn't enough temperature difference to place much load on the station at all. In Dave's testing, the 240C set point is probably < 10w of actual forcible power dissipation.

You can't prove a powerlifter is stronger than me just asking us both to lift 10kg. If we're both capable, it only proves we're both sufficient and says nothing of our relative capacity.

So a long as we are operating with thermal loads well below the ultimate capacity of two test specimens, the station power doesn't matter even a little.

So what does matter?

The single most important element of thermal performance is the plating thickness of the tip. A more durable tip with thicker iron over copper has worse thermal performance. This is significant enough that JBC actually makes two different series of tip, one is "high performance" (i.e. thin plating) and the other is "enhanced durability" (i.e. thicker plating). Hakko is well-known to favor durability and has rather thick plating and thus less thermal performance than knock-off T12/T15 tips might have.

Copper is 4.5x-7x more thermally conductive than iron (386w/m*K vs 55-80). The thickness of that plating and that amount of reduced conductivity is VERY significant.

The plating thickness actually matters more than the overall heat capacity of the tip itself because it determines how quickly heat can flow out. A thicker plating not only lasts longer but creates the illusion of more heat capacity because it slows the heat flow out. It like the illusion of having a larger gas tank just because you limit the throttle to 50%.

If plating thicknesses are the same, then the overall heat capacity of the tip matters next.

Notice, we haven't yet gotten to whether the tip is cartridge, RF or slip-over-ceramic-heater because up to this point, it doesn't matter. Until and unless you are draining the thermal reservoir that is the tip (through the restriction of its plating) then the ability to replenish the reservoir doesn't matter. You'll always have enough "water."


There differences in pure thermal performance between most irons can be  offset by just setting the poorer performer slightly hotter to get about the same forcible thermal dissipation. They are meaningless. SO the hakko needs to be at 330C to perform like the JBC at 310C. Does that matter? Not in my world.

Which means the appeal of a T12 has almost nothing to do with "superior" thermal performance. Rather, it's a smaller, lighter handpiece that's shorter and easier to use and that doesn't get nearly as hot as the ceramic element heaters (like the 888) will get in your hand.

I'll be getting an FX-601 soon enough. I can guarantee you that even at only 65w, I will be able to show that the T19 tips "outperform" an 80w 888 with T18s under some conditions. More mass, more capacity, same plating thickness. I'll be buying it just for that 6.5mm chisel that has no counterpart in the T12/T15 range.

[thm_w]

T15-D52 would be the closest chisel tip at 5.2mm. You could look at some of the large knife tips as well.
Or the super wide style: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000179733134.html

I measured the metcal plating thickness of 0.3mm here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/metcal-sttc-soldering-cartridgetip-teardown/msg3553345/#msg3553345
But that was total thickness, and the iron thickness would be thinner at the tip.
The thing is unless I destroy a new tip its going to be hard to determine plating thickness. I'll see if I can do a T12 at some point.

I'm not sure I totally buy the theory as an almost dead tip would then perform significantly better than a new tip.

[KL27x]

The T12 tip with the sensor-coupling error is expected to do worse. And it does.

I didn't understand this, shouldn't the T12 have better coupling and therefore reduced error?

That's the problem with the cheap T12 clones. At least the two I have do no error correction. Without any attempt to do that, there's no way a T12 iron can match the temperature control of an old 888 iron.

Are you referring to the calibration in the station. I'm not following the hype but I'm curious because I've designed and built an 888D style station, gathering a lot of char data in the process. I don't have any data on the T12s though.

In the T12 iron, the heater is the sensor. So the sensor is unable to sense the temperature of the tip with any accuracy. Not directly. It senses the temperature of the heater.

You can make an analogy with a toaster. You have some red hot coils heating the toast. Then the toast is the thing that must be hot enough to melt the butter. So in the 888 type iron, the temp sensor is on the toast. When the toast reaches butter-melting temp, it shuts off the heater. When that big slab of toast starts to cool a degree, then the heater turns back on. Keeping the toast the right temp.

In the T12 iron, the temp sensor is placed on the nichrome wires. So the nichrome wires will reach butter melting temp in 2 seconds. But the toast isn't hot yet.

This has nothing to do with calibration.

For a T12 iron to have accurate temperature control, it needs error correction for the sensor-heater coupling. And the cheaper clones don't do this. So they sag when under load. The more cold butter you pour on the toast, the more the toast drops in temp. But the heater wires are still red hot and are not as affected. The more load, the more sag. But on the plus side, the cartridge tip design allows for high power output without warming up the handle very much.