Author Topic: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)  (Read 44838 times)

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Offline saturation

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2012, 08:47:28 pm »
Yes, agree, nearly all of them provide enough information to a skilled user to keep the product going far beyond its service life.  I haven't seen a recent design Agilent device being as thorough, except the carry overs from HP such as the 3458a DMM or the 36xx analog PSU.

eh, yes 3458A . i have a lysdectic syldectic dylsectic dyslectic memory :)

HP service manuals should be mandatory reading lecture in EE courses... They also used to have something called 'bench briefs' ( no not underwear ). the whole collection is somewhere on the web. There they published inteview with their designers and highlighted the techniques used. extremely interesting reading material.

When i moved into my new townhome last year i got strange looks because i would sometimes sit at the pool on weekends and read these big HP service manual binders with fold out schematics... Now they're used to the nutty guy because they know where to go when theri pc or tv don't work ..
Best Wishes,

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Offline gerrysweeney

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2012, 01:24:38 am »
@free_electron, great writeup on the workings of the E3631A PSU, thanks for post in.  Despite having repaired my own I did not get close to that level of detail and a few things fell into place as I read your posts here. I have to say using the PSU its very very good, as you say HP know a thing or two about this sort of stuff.  None the less I am still going to have a go a building my own, its my way of learning more about analog electronics than I currently know :)

Offline codeboy2k

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2012, 01:12:21 am »
If you really want to see their 'magic' at work : service manual of a 34401 ! Or if you can find it : a 3485.. That beast has been in production since the dinosaur age ... and is still the 'gold standard' when it comes to multimeters. Heck these are the machines that today are still used to 'calibrate' the calibrators ... and its a 30 year old design ! ( mid 80's )

(I know you mistyped 3485)..

Is this the manual you are talking about, for the 3458A, or is there another service manual for that DMM?  I've never owned a 3458A so I don't know, but I would still love to read a good read.   A seller on eBay has 4 of these for $20 each.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-3458A-Assembly-Level-Repair-Manual-/320603678046

 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2012, 02:03:19 am »
You can download the assembly level repair manual for free from agilent. All it tells you is what module is bad and how to swap the module. No schematics....
You need the CLIP... ( that is what hp calls their internal service manuals. component Level Information Package..) i got clips from some scopes. But the 3458 i have not found yet. They do not release these publicly. This is for their repair centers only. You need to know someone who works there and can make scans / copies.... Afaik nobody has ever seen the clip for the 3458...
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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2012, 02:46:03 am »
Component level information packages were intended for customers, not just for service centers. They were a compromise between the old way of providing component level service manuals for free, and the new trend of providing only assembly level information. They charged a fair amount of money for them to recover the costs. I'm surprised you haven't been able to find one, Agilent Find-A-Part lists p/n 03458-90033 as currently orderable for about $150.

There are also some HP Journal articles (probably in one of the 1989 issues) describing several of the key circuits and techniques in the 3458A. If you're interested in this kind of thing, reading the HP Journal articles about its predecessors like the 3456A and 3455A might also be informative. The HP Journal articles often described important circuits like A/D converters.
 

Offline codeboy2k

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2012, 05:15:41 am »
You can download the assembly level repair manual for free from agilent. All it tells you is what module is bad and how to swap the module. No schematics....
You need the CLIP... ( that is what hp calls their internal service manuals. component Level Information Package..) i got clips from some scopes. But the 3458 i have not found yet. They do not release these publicly. This is for their repair centers only. You need to know someone who works there and can make scans / copies.... Afaik nobody has ever seen the clip for the 3458...

Ah ok. Thanks for the info; good that I checked before shelling out $20. It's not that much money, but I don't like to get scammed either.
The seller might have downloaded the PDF and is making prints at Kinkos and selling those.

 

Offline casinada

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2012, 05:36:45 am »
Free_Electron,
you can download the HP_3458_CLIP.pdf  from the KO4BB repository manuals site.
 :)
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2012, 10:55:57 am »
Excellent piece of information on the HP_3458_CLIP.pdf. The filemane worked miracles in the search engines.
Thank you!


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(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2012, 01:20:11 pm »
I just downloaded it. The first 20 pages or so are detailed explanations of how the A/d works in that machine. It explains multislope in greater detail than i did. Like how they avoid saturationg the integrator by already starting to inject current during the first phase. They aslo swap the slopes. A normal dual slope charges first from reference then discharges from input. They flip that around because then they shorten time by playing with substraction during slope 1 ( called runup , slope two is called rundown ). They essentially digitize 4 digits while the capacitor is still charging.. The remainder 4 digits are got during discarge.

This machine is totally bonkers... All discrete fets everywhere. Amazing how they get this thing to do 81/2 digits. And it was made in the early 80's and is today still in production.. Unmodified. And still the gold standard.. Highly recommended reading material
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Offline Christe4nM

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2012, 10:52:41 am »
@free_electron: those 20 pages of detailed explanation, which file are you talking about? I downloaded the CLIP, the service manual and a HP Journal from 1989, but I cannot find it. Am I overlooking something here? Also, may I ask at which forum I can read about that multislope tryout on a breadboard?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:01:15 am by Christe4nM »
 

Offline Stephen Hill

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2012, 01:28:21 pm »


Where did you get your screwdriver from and (more importantly) can you get them in other colours?
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2012, 01:49:16 pm »
The clip that A.Hellene pointed at is incomplete... The real clip is 204 pages ..... Not 66.
I will host and place a link.

The other forum is in dutch .. ( flemisch) ... So unless you can read that.. Bummer , but here is the post : http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/94488/10/circuitsonline+multislope , somewhere halfway that page. We were discussing hp34401 versus the new fluke ( the linux running thingie 8xxx series. I had done a teardown on a 'loaner'. Versus keithley 200x versus some others. We were discussing converter techniques. One thing led to another....

this was the first build ..


And then the volt- heads took over ...
http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/95584
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Offline WorldPowerLabs

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2012, 03:24:14 pm »
Very nice post -- appreciate all your effort...

I used to use these power supplies.  In my experience, they are extremely durable and quite trouble-free.

I'd also like to know the source for the screwdriver...
 


Offline T4P

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2012, 04:16:00 pm »
The coloured ones are common in the hobby/rc channels
 

Offline krivx

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2012, 04:20:24 pm »
The other forum is in dutch .. ( flemisch) ... So unless you can read that.. Bummer , but here is the post : http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/94488/10/circuitsonline+multislope

Google does an OK job for anyone else who wants to follow along http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/94488/1&usg=ALkJrhh2quwO04ziKdxEDyJBOB_V5bPJUA

I would lobe to see the complete version of that CLIP...
 

Offline vl400Topic starter

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2012, 10:31:00 am »
Where did you get your screwdriver from and (more importantly) can you get them in other colours?

They are just cheapies from ebay (search something like precision screwdrivers), the picture showed them as black but arrived pink ::)
 

Offline codeboy2k

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2012, 02:56:26 am »
The other forum is in dutch .. ( flemisch) ... So unless you can read that.. Bummer , but here is the post : http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/94488/10/circuitsonline+multislope

Google does an OK job for anyone else who wants to follow along http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.circuitsonline.net/forum/view/94488/1&usg=ALkJrhh2quwO04ziKdxEDyJBOB_V5bPJUA

I would lobe to see the complete version of that CLIP...

me too. Waiting for free_electrons link ... thanks in advance!
After I read it I am going to build me a 6.5 digit multimeter just for fun  :)

 

Offline free_electron

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Offline A Hellene

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2012, 03:49:45 am »
Fabulous site!
Thank you, free_electron!


-George
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
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Offline gerrysweeney

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2012, 11:31:34 am »
There is a pretty detailed explanation of the multislope integrating converter on Wikipedia here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrating_ADC, looks like the HP description so I guess the detail comes from the patent.

@free_electron  You said in an earlier post, "You'll have a very VERY hard time making a supply with the same specs (current / voltage / load response, readout accuracy and precision , floating outputs , gpib and serial control ) for even double the price of what the supply goes for new off the shelf at agilent. The isolated floating outputs alone will kill you in cost.. Youll need one cpu per channel, send it through optos, have another earth referenced cpu and you wont even come close to the precision of control and readback... You need like 18 bits or more..."

I will take that as a challenge then :) I am not so convinced about your assessment, its defeatist - its easy to give up and tell yourself you can never do better, it’s much harder to actually try and do better and of course be prepared to accept success or failure as an outcome - that my friend is called progress - and the human spirit is a master of making progress  - so thank you for setting me the target......  I am not for one minute supposing that I can match the R&D capability, knowledge and knowhow that HP have out of my home office here in London with a small hobby workbench (that ironically is stocked with some pretty decent HP/Agilent kit), but between 1992 and now a great deal has changed in the world. 

Firstly, components and availability of the same has been transformed, accessibility to information, data sheets and other designs are at everyone’s fingertips because of the internet, contrast that with 20 years ago when building a datebook/sheet library was the most important thing to do as an electronics engineer.   Secondly, components are much better and more easily available. When HP designed their stuff in the late 80's early 90's high precision op-amps DAC's and ADC's where ridiculously expensive - not the case anymore.  Digital electronics and processing speed are so far advanced today;  a "silly PIC or Atmel" as you referred to them in your earlier post will outperform the 80's style CPU/RAM/ROM  found in the E3631A a hundred-fold in an embedded design and will cost you less than $2 in a one off quantity.  Setting all of those advantages aside, much more is generally known about the theory of operation around regulators, the pitfalls and analogue system design, so even a novice like me can understand most of what is going on.    I have some alternative ideas about getting the resolution I need for the DAC's using software and Delta Sigma modulation, that’s the advantage of having one dedicated 10mips ($2) controller per PSU channel :), your assessment for result ion of 18 bits is incorrect by the way; to match the range of the Agilent 3631A I only need 13 bits resolution including headroom for calibration.

I don't really mind if I fail or succeed, but I will try, and I will share with anyone else who is interested what I learn from trying.  I don't know everything there is to know about analogue electronics, actually far from it, my knowhow is more in the digital domain, so if you or anyone else is able to offer any suggestions or advice as I make progress, (so long as it’s not too defeatist that is :) it would be great fully received!  I am only on Part 3 of my attempts and have already hit some problems as I expected to but have overcome them and learned a lot along the way.   

Gerry
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2012, 02:47:39 pm »
You will fail...
Here is why :
1) the transformer you need will bomb your budget...
2) on the 18 bit: that os for the meter part, not the dac part ... This thing measures 5 1/2 digit. 16 bit gets you. A max of 65535... So you need 17 bit assuming you pick up no noise.... Make it 18 or 19 then....
3) how are you going to implement gpib ?
4) heatsinks are custom jobs...
5) you will need multiple cpus . Since the channels are isolated. So you need an outguard cpu for the comms , and at least two more ( one for 6 volt, one for the +/- 22 volt channel )
6) display ? I don't want to see a stupid lcd ... Needs to be a vfd, starburst preferred...

That's what i mean with ' you will have a hard time duplicating it... ' at that price. It is not economically feasible. Just the cost of the parts alone is bombing the project...
As a hobbyist you cant build anything that comes close to these. If you want to shave it down like using an lcd , forfaiting gpib , forfaiting isolated channels , forfaiting the readout precision and accuracy, forfaiting tracking capability and a bunch of stuff. Yeah you could make something. But it is stilll going to be more expensive thana wingpangpong with the same specs as what you built.

Of course thereis still the thrill of trying :) and that's what we do it for. On the other hand... You can pick these supplies up , used but fully working, for as low as 300$...  Then it becomes a real hard nut to crack...


As for 'advancements in regulation' ... There is none. Same circuitry is still in use. These are proven regulator designs. Been in use for 40 years. Can't really improve them.
By the way, the precision opamps are today still 8 $ a pop ...
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Offline gerrysweeney

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2012, 04:26:49 pm »
Well despite your pessimism I am not going to give up just yet :)

1. My aim is to create something modular so you can use the modules to make a single, two, three or four channel PSU, just keep adding the modules and the transformers.  I am designing the PSU module to work from a single secondary winding so you can use low-cost off the shelf transformers - remember, just like you can pick up these PSU's for $300 (which by the way if you know of any would buy a couple more at that price), as a DIY'er you can also pick up transformers cheap.   If CATII/III isolation is important then you can always use one transformer in the box.

2) Yes of course you are right I was not thinking of the meter, the ADC chip will be the most expensive part by far, I think a decent dual ADC for this resolution will be $6-8 a piece. I have not done much with high resolution ADC's, its something I need to play around with, I was thinking of something like a 16bit decade counter chip in conjunction with one of the the MCU's 16-bit timers would give me a 24bit counter, I fancy having a go at a dual or multi-slope implementation in software.  Failing that, there are off the shelf ADC's that are high enough resolution for not so many $'s a pop.

3) This is one area where I don't see much point to be honest.  GPIB is an old standard, it belongs in the dark ages of the centronics parallel port and there would appear to be less and less support for it as serial protocols like RS232/485, USB and in particular ethernet seem to be much more current, especially since SCPI is supported over these.   That said I am well aware that GPIB is still in widespread use for test automation etc, I don;t know that much about it so I can't really comment on it apart from it can not be so hard to implement, its really just a parallel bus of some form.  This is certainly not on my list of priorities but if I get some time I may look into it as an academic exercise.  My thoughts are with RS232 (simplicity) and Ethernet (TCP/IP) because anyone can plug in and make use of it.

4) Enclosures are a whole different problem, something that would be great to solve.  However, what I am trying to achieve is the electronics, for s DIY build the enclosure and heatsinks would be left up to the builder to accommodate.

5) Yes, they are cheaper than most other IC's nowadays so not a problem, in fact anywhere I can replace a chip(s) with a CPU it will save time and money (GPIB and their custom chips spring to mind, I think a decent PIC could possibly run a 1Mbit parallel buss).

6) I too like VFD's very much, but as you say they are expensive so not accessible to everyone. Of course I am trying to make something that is modular so there are options. For those of us that could get a VFD for cheap (I recently bought some 64x256 graphics ones for £5 each) then its an option, for others a "stupid LCD" might be acceptable....

Apart from the fact that I am not actually trying to go into production and compete with HP, the point was really to create something that is every bit as good (spec wise) but on a DIY budget - maybe I can and maybe I can't but I am still going to try :)

The precision op amp used in the HP slope detector is about $5 at a one off price from one of the most expensive R&D sources, they go down by 50% at a quantity of 100 (http://uk.farnell.com/analog-devices/op2177arz/op-amp-dual-precision-smd-2177/dp/9994238?whydiditmatch=rel_3&matchedProduct=ad706&matchedProduct=ad706&whydiditmatch=rel_3) so not too bad, but there are plenty of other more modern devices that are even better and cheaper.

I was not thinking about advancements in regulation specifically, they are what they are, what has advanced is the components you can use to create the thing and all of out control circuitry around it.

You obviously have a very strong conviction that this can't be done which is fine but I am still going to try, there is nothing like finding out for ones self!

Offline SeanB

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2012, 04:38:30 pm »
Just remember a 16 bit DC accurate ADC is not the same as an audio 16 bit ADC. The non audio device has much higher requirements with regards to reference noise, stability and monotonicity as well as needing an order of magnitude more stable internals. Audio devices are fast and reasonably accurate, but at DC you need it to be a lot better than audio, where it is hard to detect that the bottom 2 bits or so are not really usable due to noise and offsets. The ADC will not be a $2 part at all, probably will have a name like AD or TI, NSC and will cost $ 20 or more in volume, and will be only available in limited package types and accuracy specs.
 

Offline gerrysweeney

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Re: Teardown: Agilent E3631A Power Supply (Picture Heavy)
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2012, 04:58:06 pm »
Hi Sean,

I was looking at ADC's designed specially for instrumentation, these are the sorts of thing I was looking at http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/62412.pdf they are about £8 ($12) as one off's so not too bad.  Not entirely sure a differential input is OK for what I wan't but there are single input ones too.  I am going to try a DIY slope converter for academic reasons but if push comes to shove there are plenty of these types of devices available.   

Gerry


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