Tesla to sell battery packs for home use

[mtdoc]

If you need batteries at home, why not lead-acid?

Shorter lifespan, lower charge efficiency and higher maintenance.

[dannyf]

why not lead-acid?

Or metal-air (Fe-air or Zinc-air for example).

[nctnico]

The paradox here couldn't have been bigger. The grid works on the network effect: the more people using it, the more attractive it is for more people to use it.
Unfortunately, the inverse is also true - as more and more people live off the grid, the less and less attractive it is for those to remain on the grid. If living off the grid becomes wide spread (I don't think it will be for a large portion of the society), grid will fail to exist.

I'd love one of these and wouldn't want to live off the grid.
It could be used to store excess energy during the day and then power stuff at night, with the grid as the backup.
At present we can't use all the power we generate during the day.

Still it would require a massive change in how electricity is generated because the power plants which are operating now aren't designed for widely varying loads. Guess who is going to pay for that. Not using the grid is going to make other people pay through the nose for their electricity.

What about the opposite scenario : the times the grid can't cope and slams shut. Having a bunch of people that have their own 'mini plant' and be able to feed power into the localized grid would take the strain of the big grid.

Want examples ? Every year, during summer in the US, we have rolling outages in multiple states. Because all the people's AC are running and the power use is so high the grid cannot cope.
I want my cool air in the summer ! People from Europe may not perceive that as a problem as very few people there have AC. Go live in Texas or the Aussie outback and this changes very quickly.

The lesson to be learned here is that critical parts of the infrastructure of a country should not be 100% privatised. That is an entirely different problem and does not get solved by people having their own batteries. Besides that in most cases the DC-to-AC inverters won't even start without mains applied.

Oh, and having AC is getting popular in the EU as well.

[nctnico]

Houses in the US (and I presume many other 1st-world countries) are generally made from wood and contain many ultra-flammable materials such as bedding, carpeting, draperies, furniture, etc. They also typically have natural gas piped in and a few hundred amps of electrical service ready to contribute to a blaze.

In the EU most houses are made from brick/concrete (including the inner walls). Wooden houses are 'for the poor' so to say. But they do contain lots of stuff like furniture, carpets, etc which will burn. Also the electrical feed isn't that big; usually a few tens of amps 3 phase or single phase (which each circuit protected by a 16A fuse).

[tom66]

Houses in the US (and I presume many other 1st-world countries) are generally made from wood and contain many ultra-flammable materials such as bedding, carpeting, draperies, furniture, etc. They also typically have natural gas piped in and a few hundred amps of electrical service ready to contribute to a blaze.

In the EU most houses are made from brick/concrete (including the inner walls). Wooden houses are 'for the poor' so to say. But they do contain lots of stuff like furniture, carpets, etc which will burn. Also the electrical feed isn't that big; usually a few tens of amps 3 phase or single phase (which each circuit protected by a 16A fuse).

In the UK most houses have a 100A feed, single phase. Even my father's tiny bungalow has a 63A single phase supply. Three phase is comparatively rare in the UK, I'm not sure why, as it would make a lot of sense for cookers and showers (our shower pulls 30A on one phase.)

[nctnico]

I guess in the UK using electricity for hot water and heating is more common than in the NL.

[Monkeh]

I guess in the UK using electricity for hot water and heating is more common than in the NL.

Not that common. Only in areas without gas or for cheapskates who don't realise electric showers cost them more in the long run.

[SeanB]

I changed to gas for cooking and water heating, mostly due to having Eskom power, mostly intermittently. Gas is at least quicker for cooking, and more importantly I can cook when load shedding is on, along with being able to make a cuppa as well.

[tom66]

I guess in the UK using electricity for hot water and heating is more common than in the NL.

Many houses have electric showers here. Luckily we have a gas powered shower in the basement. (Well, boiler uses gas and it runs on hot water.) It's quite good. The second floor has an electric one because the water pressure isn't high enough to make one usable that high.

A lot of houses also have emergency electric heating ("immersion heater") for the water, which is used in cases where there the gas meter has run out.

[ttt]

Houses in the US (and I presume many other 1st-world countries) are generally made from wood and contain many ultra-flammable materials such as bedding, carpeting, draperies, furniture, etc. They also typically have natural gas piped in and a few hundred amps of electrical service ready to contribute to a blaze.

In the EU most houses are made from brick/concrete (including the inner walls). Wooden houses are 'for the poor' so to say. But they do contain lots of stuff like furniture, carpets, etc which will burn. Also the electrical feed isn't that big; usually a few tens of amps 3 phase or single phase (which each circuit protected by a 16A fuse).

"So to say" :-) Rich people don't have the choice to build using bricks either. New houses made from (unreinforced) brick have been illegal in California since 1933 as survivability in these structures during earthquakes is much lower, also see what happened in Haiti and Italy in recent years. Cost is of course also a factor. Reinforced brick based structures (I include 'modern' grey concrete bricks here) turn out to be more expensive than just building the whole thing using reinforced concrete which is now much more common in California, at least with multistory buildings. Areas with tornado risk in the US have similar rules, though getting impaled by flying 2x4s is no fun either.

That said the biggest risk for fires in California is as always blatant code violation and lack of enforcement. When I bought my house a couple of years ago I had to deal with fabric insulated electrical lines from 1925. The copper wires close to the outlets snapped by just looking at it funny it was so brittle. No grounding anywhere. And literally a 50/50 chance of line vs neutral being correctly wired :-(

[free_electron]

last week i had to deal with a family of tree squirrels that made a love nest in my attic. they had been feasting on my ROMEX wires... causing a massive short circuit. Anyone for grilled squirrel ?

I had the electrician replace it all with corrugated aluminum cable (copper wires inside) . Let them bite through that. Bloody vermin.

Any squirrel i encounter crossing the street from now on, and i have the chance, will go from being a three dimensional lifeform to something resembling a two dimensional object. My car weigh 4700 pounds without me in it. we'll see who will win.

[eas]

People don't buy a Tesla over a Camry today because of the break-even on charging with electricity instead of gas. People buy it because they can afford it, and after that, some combination of other factors, including amenities, outward expressions of identity, curiosity, appreciation of the engineering, a huge crush on Elon Musk, etc.

Actually if you fit a certain driving profile a Tesla is actually a very cheap option. Assuming you want a reasonably comfortable saloon car and do a fair amount of mileage (say 20k+/year), and you can afford the up-front cost then Teslas are very competitive. Same with the Leaf - there are taxi companies using them and the higher purchase price is offset in the first year, and then it's all benefit due to lower fuel costs and lower maintenance costs. They have 2.5 year old vehicles with 150k on the clock and about 10% battery degradation despite constant rapid charging and 7 day a week operation.

It all comes down to being able to afford the up-front costs. If you can get an EV (and it suits your driving needs of course) and install solar within a few years you will be quids in.

No argument that EVs can be both practical and financially viable. My point is simply that a huge part of the market for Tesla cars are buying based on something other than a basic cost-benefit analysis. I'm pretty sure that most of the Teslas I see in Seattle aren't doing enough miles to justify their cost based on energy savings, unless you compare them against a "mid-range" Mercedes or BMW. Even in cases where buying Tesla pencils out on lifecycle costs alone, the Leaf may still be more attractive (though the Tesla's resale value probably complicates the picture). 

Similarly, I expect that there will be a significant market for the Tesla home packs among "conspicuous conservers" who are buying for reasons other than basic economics.

[eas]

That said the biggest risk for fires in California is as always blatant code violation and lack of enforcement. When I bought my house a couple of years ago I had to deal with fabric insulated electrical lines from 1925. The copper wires close to the outlets snapped by just looking at it funny it was so brittle. No grounding anywhere. And literally a 50/50 chance of line vs neutral being correctly wired :-(

Well, that, and the fact that the ecosystem of the southern part of the state is born to burn (link to a great chapter from a great book by John McPhee on major ongoing battles in the battle between humans and the rest of nature, it also features the epic struggle against the Mississippi river, and an Icelandic volcano).

[zapta]

although it could get interesting when more people start having multiple EVs. I know some people who already do and they have to be careful not to trip their main breaker, or ask the power company to upgrade the supply.

This calls for a smart multi car charger that assigns charge based on availability and driving patterns and state of each car. Or at least a planner/scheduler that coordinates between chargers and other loads. It's a workaround but may still be useful.

[tom66]

No argument that EVs can be both practical and financially viable. My point is simply that a huge part of the market for Tesla cars are buying based on something other than a basic cost-benefit analysis. I'm pretty sure that most of the Teslas I see in Seattle aren't doing enough miles to justify their cost based on energy savings, unless you compare them against a "mid-range" Mercedes or BMW. Even in cases where buying Tesla pencils out on lifecycle costs alone, the Leaf may still be more attractive (though the Tesla's resale value probably complicates the picture). 

Like the first gen Prius, having a Tesla is as much a status symbol as it is being green. I don't have a problem with it - whatever floats their boat - if it's beneficial for everyone in the end.

In some ways a Tesla is a downgrade on BMW/Mercedes: interior is a little spartan, and apparently the ride performance isn't as good. Reliability is also so-so, on the earlier models at least, although Tesla has been very proactive to fix issues. But, what's interesting is how successful Tesla has been despite the fact that they weren't able to get it near competitor quality on the luxury side of things. It shows how big the EV market -could- be, if manufacturers were just prepared to take (an admittedly big) risk and develop the technology properly, not make some half-arsed compliance car.

I honestly could see this doing a lot of damage to Toyota/Honda, if they don't react quick enough to the market shift that may occur in 2017/2018 when GM's Bolt & Tesla's Model 3 get released. They're pushing fuel cell EVs but pretty much anyone involved in the auto biz knows they're ridiculously impractical. Lots more needs to be sorted out before they'll work properly. They're using them only as good PR, sold in limited units, on restricted leases... "The Power of Dreams"... you really do have to dream hard to get a FCEV to work in the real world!

[mtdoc]

As far as lack of wood frame construction in Europe, I think it has a lot to do with the historical deforestation.  Wood is a great building material but it does not last as long as stone (as long as earthquakes are not an issue as is true in Europe).

Over the centuries as wood structures rotted or burned down they were replaced by stone structures since wood was less available due to deforestation.  Stone structure stay around unless destroyed by earthquake or humans (bombs!).

It was a real revelation from my time in Europe to see many people living in centuries old stone buildings. In the US the few old stone buildings are generally public works (cathedrals, courthouses, etc) and not homes.

It is much more expensive to build with stone (which may have something to do with the smaller average home size in Europe).

I spent some time working with a stonemason in England - you just don't find those kind of stone craftsmen commonly in the U.S.

[miguelvp]

As far as lack of wood frame construction in Europe, I think it has a lot to do with the historical deforestation.  Wood is a great building material but it does not last as long as stone (as long as earthquakes are not an issue as is true in Europe).

Over the centuries as wood structures rotted or burned down they were replaced by stone structures since wood was less available due to deforestation.  Stone structure stay around unless destroyed by earthquake or humans (bombs!).

It was a real revelation from my time in Europe to see many people living in centuries old stone buildings. In the US the few old stone buildings are generally public works (cathedrals, courthouses, etc) and not homes.

It is much more expensive to build with stone (which may have something to do with the smaller average home size in Europe).

I spent some time working with a stonemason in England - you just don't find those kind of stone craftsmen commonly in the U.S.

A lot of old houses and even those stone ones have wood frame support, but the difference is that they used old beech and oak trees for the support columns and roof. Those trees where cut at a given time in the year at a certain moon phase when the tree was getting ready for winter or something like that, that had natural defenses against rot. Not sure if they were treated as well, this was done after centuries of observation and now it's probably a lost knowledge.

Those old big support beans are as strong now as they were centuries ago. Same deal with old fishermen boats. But those old traditions and ways to do things are a thing of the past since no one now is going to wait a whole year to harvest trees at the right time since now we can treat them against weather, but still the old forgotten method seems to yield better results.

[nctnico]

As far as lack of wood frame construction in Europe, I think it has a lot to do with the historical deforestation.  Wood is a great building material but it does not last as long as stone (as long as earthquakes are not an issue as is true in Europe).

Over the centuries as wood structures rotted or burned down they were replaced by stone structures since wood was less available due to deforestation.  Stone structure stay around unless destroyed by earthquake or humans (bombs!).

It depends a bit on where you are. In the UK for example it is easy to find stones to build houses from; stones where/are the cheapest building material. In the NL and surrounding low lands stone is very hard to find (try to find stones in a swamp!) so stones house became a status symbol. In some cases people had the front of the house made of brick while the rest was wood. It surfaces in the language as well: in the UK they say 'stone broke' to a poor person in the NL we say 'stone rich' for a wealthy person.

[Luap2]

http://www.aquionenergy.com/  Is this the new /next gen storage battery for stationary usage ?

[free_electron]

Like the first gen Prius, having a Tesla is as much a status symbol as it is being green.

Plus, it's so much fun to take the piss out of the testosterone pumped petrolheads at the traffic light with their posh TT's , A8's ,M series and AMG's. 'Look at the guy with the foodblender' they scoff...

And then their jaw hits their steering wheel when the 'foodblender' rockets forward and hits the 60mph point after a mere 3 seconds. It kinda hurts their ego when the 'soupmixers' leaves them behind in an electromagnetic field .

Then they go : Shit, we paid more for our hi-end 'explosion motor' relics than that cuisinart costs and we just got handed our driveshaft, gearbox and tailpipe.

It never gets old. I do it at least once a day. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. 

[eas]

Just in case anyone else was misled by that blog post at the start of the thread, the pictured battery pack is from a Nissan Leaf. Indeed, if you look to the far left, you can see the Nissan logo.  Also, the file name.

I thought it was odd that Tesla would be packing their home batteries like the batteries in a Leaf, but didn't have a chance to dig further until now.

[zapta]

This calls for a smart multi car charger that assigns charge based on availability and driving patterns and state of each car. Or at least a planner/scheduler that coordinates between chargers and other loads. It's a workaround but may still be useful.

Many EVs do have a timer for charging and/or remote control. The timer is primarily there so that you can take advantage of cheap off-peak electricity, but some people do use it to charge two cars at different times to avoid overloading their breaker.

That's very basic, like recording TV shows using the VCR's timer. Compare this with a modern DVR that has knowledge of the TV guide and your preferences and can make smart scheduling.

[tom66]

That's very basic, like recording TV shows using the VCR's timer. Compare this with a modern DVR that has knowledge of the TV guide and your preferences and can make smart scheduling.

Tesla's got something like this called "smart preconditioning" where the car will notice you usually use a specific temperature/ac setting/fan setting/etc for your morning commute and automatically do that every morning. I expect they'll do the same for charging soon, maybe if suppliers start offering more fine-grained demand pricing (on say ~15min intervals) Tesla could use a network of cars as arbitrage, transferring energy between the grid and car as and where it is required.

[eneuro]

Future energy storage might look different and winner might be not Tesla


Isn't it simple?


And something for home grid without bloody chemistry and flamable Lithium at house 

[EK701]

Future energy storage might look different and winner might be not Tesla

You probably won't want to be around that during an earthquake...