Author Topic: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed  (Read 32917 times)

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Offline Rooster CogburnTopic starter

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2018, 08:44:11 pm »
The sleep issue is why I went back to the older firmware 2.02. No issues with that version, other then temp jumping and heater constant on (ONLY when earth grounded). Since as of now, I’m not doing anything electronics sensitive, and solder ungrounded.

Ah, good to know it's not just me then. Unfortunately it seems I can't use 2.02 because that has the temperature fluctuation bug for me (and some others, judging from the bug report).

Thankfully fixing your grounding issue will be simple once you need ESD safety.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2018, 06:18:42 am »
Anyone have experience with the new small TS-C1 tip for the TS100? .. Does it work for you?
 

Offline Rooster CogburnTopic starter

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2018, 08:47:24 am »
Anyone have experience with the new small TS-C1 tip for the TS100? .. Does it work for you?

OT I guess, but yeah, I wanted to ask about those as well:



Are they original? Newer / older models?
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2018, 09:24:37 am »
I bought the TS-C1, but it's so bad I think it might be faulty? It just has no thermal capacity at all, the solder on the tip solidifies when I tack it onto a pad (ENIG, 1206) and takes 10-15 seconds before it melts again. If I then try to feed more solder to the pad the temperature drops a lot :/

Will try to compare it with my other iron, maybe this board is weird..
 

Offline Rooster CogburnTopic starter

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2018, 10:43:59 am »
I bought the TS-C1, but it's so bad I think it might be faulty? It just has no thermal capacity at all, the solder on the tip solidifies when I tack it onto a pad (ENIG, 1206) and takes 10-15 seconds before it melts again. If I then try to feed more solder to the pad the temperature drops a lot :/

Will try to compare it with my other iron, maybe this board is weird..

Did you try measuring the resistance of the tip? I wonder if it's different than the ~10Ohm of the first line of tips.
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2018, 08:03:19 pm »
Hi Everyone..

So with the help of "Rooster Cogburn" i just found out my brand spanking new power supply i got for my TS100 is not earthed.
Or as "Rooster Cogburn" put it quote from Rooster : "The Mean-Well PSUs have three prongs but are not mains earth referenced"
https://www.tme.eu/gb/details/gs90a24-p1m/desktop-power-supplies/mean-well/
So that's €24 plus €8 shipping down the drain.. i will contact TME.eu tomorrow and ask for a return. That will mean i will have to return the supply somewhere in Eindhoven costing around €8 or more.. will see.

Strangely enough ONE my old dell power supplies seem to be grounded  or earth referenced.
https://imgur.com/a/NTmX5
which i had read this post before i got the dam thing.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2018, 08:15:38 pm »
I wouldn't expect any such supply to be earth referenced.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2018, 08:16:17 pm »
Me neither.

Why do you want/need it earth referenced?
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2018, 08:19:46 pm »
Guys i'm also looking for a DC power-plug and thanks to Gyro he pointed me to this one..
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-Power-Plug-Socket-Male-Female-Barrel-Connector-Multiple-Sizes-Available-/292033926253

Two minor things..

1) it says " May not post to Netherlands -"
2) i think i found the same plug for less


Two options and my first instinct is to go for the more expensive one buy a little mind you..
So this option is €0,85 for 6 of them..kind of to good to be true..
https://tinyurl.com/yb4tdzpv     (used tiny-url because the url is crazy long out of this world).

but this one costing €1,84 for 5pcs sounds good and by the look of things they look a bit different theres more room between the black plastic and the plug like a ring..but in the reviews you do see pics that are the same.
https://tinyurl.com/ydf3ufz5

Also i think this seller also has the female plug in his store..

I know that certain things one should not get from china that's why i want to ask any way i can check compare know the diff between crapy and good connectors ??

Gyro was kind enough to explain the value benefit of these Fork plugs.
Direct quote from him..in regards to the benefit of these plugs

- higher current rating than the ordinary ones - several Amps vs 500mA or so.
Also

- The Female connector is less critical and should be fairly easily available.

 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2018, 08:44:08 pm »
Me neither.

Why do you want/need it earth referenced?

user "Rooster Cogburn" first post explained why check out page 1 of this topic..
Also to be honest with you when i pay €24 + €8 so €32 so $38 for a power supply i expect the third prong to do it's job..
i'm sure there is a good reason why this is not necessary and i'm by no means an expert in fact i'm green as they get hahaha..
i suspect Rooster Cogburn and Gyro go do a better job explaining it. but i believe they did.. i haven't read true the whole post but i certainly will. as i got in to this hobby to learn even as a 41yr old it nurd..
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2018, 06:02:58 am »
Me neither.

Why do you want/need it earth referenced?

user "Rooster Cogburn" first post explained why check out page 1 of this topic..
Also to be honest with you when i pay €24 + €8 so €32 so $38 for a power supply i expect the third prong to do it's job..
i'm sure there is a good reason why this is not necessary and i'm by no means an expert in fact i'm green as they get hahaha..
i suspect Rooster Cogburn and Gyro go do a better job explaining it. but i believe they did.. i haven't read true the whole post but i certainly will. as i got in to this hobby to learn even as a 41yr old it nurd..

My mistake.. My TS100 measures about 6 VAC between the tip and earth (11M impedance), and up to 1 mA of leakage current. This is when powered by a genuine Delta electronics ADP-40PH BB switching supply. This is very bad, might explain some of my parts failures...

I'll start using it with my isolation transformer until I've built my own supply for it.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 06:05:06 am by TheAmmoniacal »
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2018, 08:17:42 am »
Me neither.

Why do you want/need it earth referenced?

user "Rooster Cogburn" first post explained why check out page 1 of this topic..
Also to be honest with you when i pay €24 + €8 so €32 so $38 for a power supply i expect the third prong to do it's job..
i'm sure there is a good reason why this is not necessary and i'm by no means an expert in fact i'm green as they get hahaha..
i suspect Rooster Cogburn and Gyro go do a better job explaining it. but i believe they did.. i haven't read true the whole post but i certainly will. as i got in to this hobby to learn even as a 41yr old it nurd..

My mistake.. My TS100 measures about 6 VAC between the tip and earth (11M impedance), and up to 1 mA of leakage current. This is when powered by a genuine Delta electronics ADP-40PH BB switching supply. This is very bad, might explain some of my parts failures...

I'll start using it with my isolation transformer until I've built my own supply for it.

i would love to know how you take measurement
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2018, 08:26:23 am »
Me neither.

Why do you want/need it earth referenced?

user "Rooster Cogburn" first post explained why check out page 1 of this topic..
Also to be honest with you when i pay €24 + €8 so €32 so $38 for a power supply i expect the third prong to do it's job..
i'm sure there is a good reason why this is not necessary and i'm by no means an expert in fact i'm green as they get hahaha..
i suspect Rooster Cogburn and Gyro go do a better job explaining it. but i believe they did.. i haven't read true the whole post but i certainly will. as i got in to this hobby to learn even as a 41yr old it nurd..

My mistake.. My TS100 measures about 6 VAC between the tip and earth (11M impedance), and up to 1 mA of leakage current. This is when powered by a genuine Delta electronics ADP-40PH BB switching supply. This is very bad, might explain some of my parts failures...

I'll start using it with my isolation transformer until I've built my own supply for it.

i would love to know how you take measurement

Just with a multimeter, measuring from soldering iron tip to mains earth. Only did a quick AC V and A measurement this morning, will do some more later today. Didn't check the DC component.

 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2018, 04:47:17 pm »
Hi Everyone,

i'm looking for help as i'm stuck.
So i bought the mean well "GST90A24-P1M" power supply but there's no continuity between the third pin and the outside of the jack.
To my surprise there is a brick power supply form mean well that says "-V connected to AC FG" in the document sheet.

Thanks to user analogo for telling me this here i direct  quote from him.

The new GS90 series comes in two versions: GST90 (floating) and GSM90 (-V connected to earth). Ask for a replacement maybe.

end quote.

So it's this one:
https://www.tme.eu/en/details/gsm90a24-p1m/desktop-power-supplies/mean-well/
And here's the document sheet (see the last page)
https://www.tme.eu/en/Document/4ed38d683461e0b62565684de040016c/GSM90A.pdf

Since i asked tme.eu for a rma because it's not mains earth referenced.
i could get the one i mentioned above Seems to be ok ????

Or i could get this one that's 50% cheaper but more important i would have just 1meter of cable from the supply to my iron.
And all silicone.
https://www.tme.eu/en/details/lrs-100-24/built-in-power-supplies/mean-well/


Can someone with technical know how please help me with my question regarding the "MEAN WELL LRS-100-24".
i downloaded the spec sheet from the seller.
https://www.tme.eu/en/Document/1e360f24f636b4fb11943a1504f8627e/LRS-100-SPEC.pdf

And looking for something like "V connected to AC FG"..
One thing i did find was a Block Diagram..Being an absolute noob i enjoy hearing "bigclivedotcom" on youtube go true a diagram but i'm light years from really understanding what i'm seeing..
i do however recognize the ground sign from all the youtube vids i watched.. and i do see that the -v seems to be connected to a ground wire. so does that mean this power supply is not a floating one ? is it "mains earth referenced" .

i want to make the same cable user Rooster Cogburn made here. and user it with this supply
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ts100-doesn_t-function-properly-when-earthed/msg1493014/#msg1493014

or should i just forget the whole thing and get this one..and make an extension cable. buy adding a female to the male connection.
https://www.tme.eu/en/details/gsm90a24-p1m/desktop-power-supplies/mean-well/

i really need sum help because i asked to return the power supply and i want to order a new one .. and all the parts needed to use it connect to it..
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2018, 10:22:25 am »
@TuxKey:

Wow, you do seem to have yourself tied in knots, the number of links made my head spin a bit. I agree with Rooster by the way -  it is far better to ask questions on the forum thread rather than PMs to several people. Then other people can benefit from the information too.


First, let's understand fundamentals:

 The reason that the TS100 doesn't like floating PSUs (floating in this context meaning 2 pin mains or fake 3 pin) is that the output floats to half mains voltage due to the EMC filter caps. It is not surprising that the temperature sensing gets disturbed when the element and thermocouple in the tip are floating at ~115V AC and the surrounding tip is grounded. The thermocouple is arranged to have best possible thermal coupling so it is inevitable that there is some capacitive and resistive leakage current. The thermocouple sensing circuit is looking for mV levels. I suspect that most other cartridge type irons would behave the same, it's just that their PSUs don't put them in that situation. It's as simple as that.


Let's now examine your options:

Firstly two of your links are for the Meanwell LRS100 series SMPS. This is designed to be built into equipment, not used standalone. It has exposed mains terminals and chassis openings that are too large to meet CE if not enclosed. At a minimum, you would need to mount it in an enclosure, either sealed, or with <3mm ventilation holes. You would also need to include a mains fuse on the live at the inlet, not to protect the PSU (which has its own internal fuse) but to protect against fire if a fault develops in your internal mains wiring. I am really not comfortable with you doing this, given your level of experience.

Down to the other two (enclosed brick) PSUs. If you want to adopt the 2 wire silicone cable, with earthing tab as Rooster has used, then you must have a PSU with grounded negative (how else are you going to get your earth reference for the tip with 2 cores?). The only alternatives I can think of is find a suitably thin 3 core cable and separately earth the 3rd core, or use a separate thin silicone tip grounding lead, maybe clipped to the cable at intervals for convenience - I think that was the original idea of the TS100 designers (use a grounding lead when using for sensitive electronics, don't bother with a battery supply or non-sensitive stuff).

Have measured the voltage on the barrel of the adapter you have bought relative to mains earth? If properly designed, then the EMC filter leakage currents will be returned to the input mains ground (3rd) pin, as shown in the block diagram you attached. If so, the output will be floating near ground and will be suitable for you to ground the tip using a separate grounding wire.

If you choose to return it and get the grounded output version instead, then you can adopt the 2 wire cord and grounding arrangement as shown in Rooster's photos.

Your final alternative - and the one that I suggested to Rooster (and you too, I think) and the one that he adopted, is to purchase a surplus genuine 3 pin brand name laptop PSU. As I have previously said, Genuine Lenovo 20V 3 pin units can be purchased on ebay very cheaply. Similar offerings from Dell, HP etc too. Ok you won't get the maximum 24V but with the thermal regulation, you are unlikely to notice the difference. How you attach the flexible silicone cord to the output is entirely down to your preference, either M-F connectors or cut the wire and solder+heatshrink. It makes no difference.

I, myself, have used a laptop PSU. Ok, I have internally modified it to put out the maximum 24V but this is not something that I would want you to do. It involves opening the sealed casing, reverse engineering, and making circuit modifications. If done wrongly or carelessly, it will compromise safety.


I hope the above gives you a full understanding of the reasons, issues involved, and your options. If not, then do please ask.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 11:27:29 am by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline MacMeter

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2018, 03:11:04 pm »
TS100 Voltage Leak & Grounding issues. Posted on EEVBlog 4-16-2018:

Here are some quick tests I did with a BM235 DMM.
TS100, with version 2.02 Ralim’s GitHub open source firmware.
Mean Well 24 voltS DC, 90 watt, switching power supply with ground plug.
Iron plugged in, but not powered on to heat. *Heating up the iron did not effect voltage readings.

TIP to EARTH GROUND = 14 volts AC. * Power supply GROUNDED
TIP to EARTH GROUND = 58 volts AC. * Power supply UNGROUNDED (used a 3-2 ground lift)

Using supplied TS100 ground clip from units ground screw to earth ground: VOLTAGE = ZERO

Last test was in response to the original poster.
I observed the irons on screen behavior while placing and removing the ground clip wire from iron to earth ground.
Temp set to 650F, while UNGROUNDED, iron reaches set temp and stabilizes.

With iron earth GROUNED, the temperature hovers around set temp, but is JUMPY, can see quick jumps up to 675F. The onscreen HEATER ICON, is indicating iron is constantly heating/cooling. As soon as earth GROUND is REMOVED, unit behaves normally again, temp stabilizes, heater icon stays OFF.

I have not tested the supplied firmware. I’ll pass this on to the open source firmware author.
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2018, 03:25:26 pm »
@Gyro if i could hit that thank you button more than once i would ..
So i’m going to stick with enclosed brick supply thanks for saving me..
i almost bought the SMPS one.

i'm going to read your reply a couple of times.. go true it let it sink in.. and if i don't understand something i'l ask..
Really appreciate it..
Will see what tme.eu will do exchange the GST90A24-P1M for the GSM90A24-P1M or not .. what i do next depends on that.
 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 03:31:16 pm by TuxKey »
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2018, 03:43:09 pm »
@MacMeter i can do the measurements with stock firmware i don't have a fancy "BM235 DMM" but i do have the cheaper one from lidl (made for newbies like myself).. reviewed by a nice eevblog memmber here.
https://youtu.be/ufx3rhCTmpY

i did get fancy new silicone probes costing the same as the meter it self hahha..
i'm still not clear on how to measure. i think put one of the probes on the tip and one on the grounding screw?
i see you mention AC so that's ~V setting. 
You mentioned that you have a Mean Well 24V DC 90W. is it a GST90A series or GSM90A?
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2018, 04:03:48 pm »
The same one I wrote in this thread and the others you’ve posted in: “Mean Well GST90A24-P1M Regulated Switching Table Top Power Supply, 24 Volt, 3.75 Amp, 90 Watt.”

If you go back and read Rooster’s first post in this thread, you may find that returning the one you bought for the other model, may trigger the temp fluctuations on the TS100 as he initially reported. I can’t say for sure, as I’ve accepted the limitations of this setup for the soldering I occasionally do. Gyro has a lot more knowledge then I do on this subject, so certainly follow his advice if it aligns with your requirements. If I were doing a lot of sensitive electronics soldering, I would buy a decent station like the new Pace station for $250, and not bother with a TS100 at all.
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2018, 04:26:20 pm »
@gyro or anyone else  :-//

i'm going to give this seller a try he has all dc plugs for a good price.. like €2,35 for 10 of them..
it seems cheaper to buy in bulk.. so i can mess up..
https://tinyurl.com/ydbrflzq
Just to be sure .. probably will sound stupid .. :-[

i know i need 5,5*2,5 on this page that's the 008 one..
But if i want the equivalent female plug are the numbers the same ? so 5,5*2,5 from this seller number 006..
It's probably going to take ages to get here.. but that's ok..
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 04:51:11 pm by TuxKey »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2018, 06:19:53 pm »
@Tuxkey:

Yes, your Lidl meter is fine. Just measure on AC volts between the outer barrel of the DC jack and mains earth (a grounding screw on your mains outlet should be suitable, or the metal cabinet of something you know has a grounded supply [Edit: it sounds as if MacMeter has already measured the sort of readings that you might see]. If there is any difficulty with the supplier, please remember my Laptop PSU advice, having a known grounded output, it is a well trodden path.

Also yes, the 5.5x2.5 is the same terminology for plug or socket. I guess it doesn't matter if it takes a long time, as long as you are able to test the iron with the PSU in the meantime.

@MacMeter:

Yes, there's no doubt that a $250 Pace station would be a very nice alternative. Luckily, for the more financially challenged or lighter user, we sometimes find lower end products that punch above their weight (Literally in the case of the TS100! :D).
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 06:26:43 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2018, 06:41:12 pm »
@Gyro

Thanks for your help i just placed an order for plugs 10 of each. for €4,46 with shipping.. So if anyone in The Netherlands needs a couple just let me know hahaha :-DD as clumsy as i can sum times be.. i think 5 are more then enough.. but considering the price and if they are any good.. why the heck not..

Like bigclivedotcom on youtube says.. the only way to learn soldering is to practice  :-DD
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2018, 07:33:17 pm »
@MacMeter:

Yes, there's no doubt that a $250 Pace station would be a very nice alternative. Luckily, for the more financially challenged or lighter user, we sometimes find lower end products that punch above their weight (Literally in the case of the TS100! :D).

Indeed, that’s the reason I bought one as you may recall helping me awhile back. But I did not buy it with any intentions of soldering potentially sensitive electronic boards, as Tuxkey indicated he would be doing. So correct me if I’m wrong, but switching power supplies to one that is negative earth grounded will not solve the issue that is the topic of this particular TS100 thread, which is wild temperature cycling when the TS100 is earth grounded.

I’m very aware of folks being on a budget, but this might be a situation where the old saying applies; “the right tool for the job”. Whether the issue is hardware or firmware on the TS100, the end result is you get a clean, no voltage leak to the tip when properly grounded, but the irons temperature readings are all over the place, seen it myself and reported here or in the other TS100 threads. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t see switching the power supply as solving this particular issue on its own.
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2018, 08:30:55 pm »
@MacMeter:

it’s not just a matter of budget but also the best value.
Like every newbie starting after doing sum moderate research i ended up with the Hakko FX-888D.
Also in my research the TS-100 came up a few times.. “Marco Reps” did a nice in depth review and after “Louis Rossmann” nice vid
where he criticised the so called “old tech” like the Hakko.. direct vs indirect heating irons..
i thought why not go for the compact iron spend a bit more on a good power supply all is well..

Looking back perhaps getting something like the FX-951 would have bin a better idea..
But i did promise my wife that this time i would not jump in to a new hobby spending big and realising it’s nothing for me.
Also i live in a apartment with one study where i do my work, studie and now also sum soldering.. learning with DIY kits and mechanical keyboards.. I don’t have the space now for a full station..

i payed €66 for the TS100 with all the little things it needed on banggood. Add to that the power supply and i’m on €90
So that’s just €33 below the Hakko FX-888D..

But i thought the TS100 was the better option compact direct heating iron.. i did not know anything about these problems..
Guess that’s my mistake..Ahh well even an old dog like myself is not above learning from his mistakes..
Being all in.. if i can do anything to salvage this situation i’m willing to try..

If i go back and read what Gyro is saying.. (first part) the reason why the TS100 doesn't like floating PSUs.
It sounds reasonably to me..

btw i thought that “Rooster Cogburn” did resolve everything now with the new firmware and power supply with mains earth.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ts100-doesn_t-function-properly-when-earthed/msg1493014/#msg1493014
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: TS100 doesn't function properly when earthed
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2018, 08:33:06 pm »
.... So correct me if I’m wrong, but switching power supplies to one that is negative earth grounded will not solve the issue that is the topic of this particular TS100 thread, which is wild temperature cycling when the TS100 is earth grounded.
....

Yes it does, the issue is having the internal electronics/element /thermocouple floating at a significantly different voltage to the tip. If both are referenced to the same level (ground in this case) then there isn't a problem with temperature cycling. Some versions of the Ralim F/W have different PID tuning which result in different degrees of temperature stability. Optimum PID tuning for the range of supply voltage and tips (thermal mass) is still a work in progress but is pretty good on the latest versions. I can't speak for the stock F/W, it's a long time since I used it.

I'm not experiencing any temperature fluctuation with the latest Ralim F/W with both the supply and tip grounded (Tip BC2, grounded laptop PSU modded to 24V - as described a few posts ago). [Edit: The laptop PSU brings the overall cost down significantly].
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 08:45:03 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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