Author Topic: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.  (Read 37133 times)

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Offline pdlservices

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2014, 06:45:29 pm »
 We always supply gold plated boards if we are assembling them.

The Quad 4c is a Dos based machine and will place about 3600 cph and the Samsung CP40 is Windows based and will place about 12000 cph.



 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2014, 07:23:36 pm »
All in all it was a bitch to setup. IIRC it took half a day to change from one product to another.
Holy crap that must be a seriously inefficint process!
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Offline Tandy

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2014, 07:28:27 pm »
Gold plating for solder terminals is a bad idea, gold dissolves extremely quickly in molten solder. On solidifying, most of the dissolved gold precipitates out in the form of large, brittle crystals of Gold and Tin, which weaken the joint structure considerably and cause cracks.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2014, 10:29:21 pm »
Gold plating for solder terminals is a bad idea, gold dissolves extremely quickly in molten solder. On solidifying, most of the dissolved gold precipitates out in the form of large, brittle crystals of Gold and Tin, which weaken the joint structure considerably and cause cracks.
AFAIK the layer is extremely thin. The gold is more to prevent oxidation of the pads. Anyway, 99.9% of the PCBs you'll find are gold plated because it works best with solder reflow.
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Offline Tandy

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2014, 10:41:12 pm »
The gold plating is very thin but it still causes AuSn4 crystals making a brittle joint. I have never had a problem with tinned PCBs as long as they are kept clean.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2014, 10:59:00 pm »
Gold is the industry standard for fine-pitch stuff, as well as any PCB with contact pads.
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Offline Tandy

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2014, 11:10:39 pm »
Gold for contacts yes but surprised by use of gold for fine pitch stuff. As it is not my main area of expertise I'll take your word for it, I am just going by what I learned years ago from soldering expert Rudolf Strauss so have avoided using gold except for edge connectors.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2014, 04:52:37 am »
Gold for contacts yes but surprised by use of gold for fine pitch stuff. As it is not my main area of expertise I'll take your word for it, I am just going by what I learned years ago from soldering expert Rudolf Strauss so have avoided using gold except for edge connectors.

Edge connectors because of the malleability, but what Mike refers to fine pitch is ductility, that's why they used to use gold to connect IC pins to the actual chip, although now they use aluminum and maybe silver, but they are not solder, they are bonded with heat and sound (high frequency) as far as I know.

Gold has it all but it's expensive so now they do have alternatives for bond wires.
 

Offline KJDS

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2014, 07:06:32 am »
Gold flash on boars is too thin to cause a joint to go brittle

Offline mrpacketheadTopic starter

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2014, 07:26:56 am »
"Flat" is the standard for fine pitch stuff.    Nice side line to the main topic, but anyway,...
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2014, 08:19:47 am »
I was faced with the same issues about a year ago.

Looked at the options and settled on a Ploish made Mechatronika M10V. Does about 1500chph down to 0201.

Has dual cameras( top and bottom ) feedrs are supplied ias banks of feeders not individualfeeders. Per feeder You are looking at a few hundred dollarat most.

Accepts a comma delimited P&P file or protel generated P&P file. Has a bank of 8 nozzles needs compressed air to run a vacuum generator and runs on a Windows XP machine.

Price feeders, machine nozzles 20K+ Euro.

EDIT: can process cut tape and loose ( bulk cubic components ) All up with the feedr banks 36components. with cut tape for low volume work dependeing on PCB size in excess of 100 components plusj  skii slope vibratory feeder.

Look for M10V on Youtube
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 08:21:40 am by IconicPCB »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2014, 10:11:20 am »
From what I've seen the M10V is about the best combination of smallest/cheapest that doesn't make too many compromises on useability or flexibility.
Looks like it can pick parts randomly located in trays, which is nice.
My only criticism is the camera doesn't seem to be very well positioned, being a fair distance from all feeders - you really want it as close as possible to some tape feeders so you can put the most common parts in the closest feeder. Is there an option for more than one camera?
The lack of even the option of a flying camera is also a disappointment - they could probably double the placement rate with this, and it's not too hard to do.
IconicPCB - do you have a breakdown on pricing? 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2014, 04:29:36 pm »
The M10V looks like a great low cost option. I am very curious if they are able to support machines well in the USA. The placement rate is still faster than all of the other processes that surround the P&P machine in our case. I have to do lots of inspection, hand soldering of wires, testing, programming, etc and 1200CPH would still be faster than I can do those other things. The best thing about moving into in-house P&P is being able to design with smaller components and not have the challenge of building prototypes and short batches. Hand placing 0201, 0402, .4mm is dicey while prototyping. Assembly houses charge an amazing amount to run 5 PCBs that we don't even know they work. On top of that, they can take a week to do it. I cant wait to get setup with a decent machine.

The Manncorp FVX is a similar priced machine that has parts/support in the USA. Any opinions on that one?
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2014, 09:05:38 pm »
Mikeselectric,


Yes i do.. but my pricing is based on NO REPRESENTATIVE in Australia.

Mechatronika I think may have an agent in USA so Your pricing will be my pricing  plus whatever the agent deems right for them.

Machine frame circa 13K euro
Feeder bank circa 2.8K to 3.6K euro ( two banks per machine )
Ski slope vibratory feeder  circa 0.8K euro plus 50euro per tube adapter.
Nozzles 100 euro each

JDEC tray holder circa150 euro

72 bin loose component holder circa 300 euro

Had i had a bit more money in the kitty I would have gone for the M80 machine.

Serious small machine many more feeders ( four or five times as many ) and flying camera for component centring ( one feeder bank occupies equivalent of 16 x 8mm feeders )

If You are considering the mancorp machine You might do better by getting the machine from the original japanese source .
 

Online coppice

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2014, 03:33:44 am »
Gold flash on boars is too thin to cause a joint to go brittle
Do you have evidence to support that? The gold flashing which used to be common on component legs and tabs could cause very serious embrittlement problems.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2014, 04:38:33 am »
Gold plating for solder terminals is a bad idea, gold dissolves extremely quickly in molten solder. On solidifying, most of the dissolved gold precipitates out in the form of large, brittle crystals of Gold and Tin, which weaken the joint structure considerably and cause cracks.
AFAIK the layer is extremely thin. The gold is more to prevent oxidation of the pads. Anyway, 99.9% of the PCBs you'll find are gold plated because it works best with solder reflow.
A high percentage of prototype boards may be gold coated, but volume production boards? Gold coating lets people be sloppy about oxidation. This is useful for prototyping, although you still need to be careful about oxidation of all the components. For reliable production people need to take real care about oxidation, and comply with all the "use by" dates. If you do that gold offers no assembly benefits, and getting rid of the gold certainly helps reliability - at least until the tin whiskers get you.  :)
 

Offline mrpacketheadTopic starter

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2014, 08:51:48 am »
What is the Japanese original source for the MANNCORP mvx?
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2014, 12:09:18 pm »
Why does even a medium P&P machine cost the equivalent of a car? It is not rocketscience anymore?
 

Online coppice

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2014, 12:34:51 pm »
Why does even a medium P&P machine cost the equivalent of a car? It is not rocket science anymore?
Be fair. They are still a lot cheaper than a rocket of any decent size.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2014, 01:35:56 pm »
Gold plating for solder terminals is a bad idea, gold dissolves extremely quickly in molten solder. On solidifying, most of the dissolved gold precipitates out in the form of large, brittle crystals of Gold and Tin, which weaken the joint structure considerably and cause cracks.
AFAIK the layer is extremely thin. The gold is more to prevent oxidation of the pads. Anyway, 99.9% of the PCBs you'll find are gold plated because it works best with solder reflow.
A high percentage of prototype boards may be gold coated, but volume production boards? Gold coating lets people be sloppy about oxidation.
99% of the volume produced boards I've ever seen are gold coated. The problem is not oxidation but flatness of the PCB surface.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2014, 01:51:24 pm »
Why does even a medium P&P machine cost the equivalent of a car? It is not rocketscience anymore?
It has never been rocket science, but, like rockets, not many people need P&P machines, so the development cost has to be spread amongst a low number of units.
There will always be an entry cost due to precision mechanical stuff - it's never going to get below a few K for a useable machine.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2014, 05:06:24 pm »
As a designer and manufacturer of specialty commercial products that mix complicated mechanics with electronics, I regularly get the "Why is this so expensive?" question.

My answer is....design and manufacture it for yourself, sell a very small qty and then you will know. The sales channels cost 30-50% of most industrial products because they are a tough and time consuming sale that generally needs specialized and experienced sales people. The company has to go to various trade shows, make videos, documentation, etc. Those massive expenses are on top of the R&D costs.

At some point, most companies are hoping to make some money as well. Your margin is NOT completely set in stone after the machine is out the door either. With a challenging piece of equipment like P&P, most customers are expecting to have someone walk them through all the of the problems. With entry level machines, this is way more serious since you are mixing inexperience with a low-end product. Cheap cars are made by the millions which creates a totally different economy of scale.

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2014, 08:29:17 pm »
I get the sales pitch. In comparison, you can get decent german made cnc milling/routing tables that have much more expensive steppers and linear ballbearing guidance (due to the extreme forces milling metals) for less than €4k. Than look at a Polish made CNC machine and they ask starting prices (so not complete yet) from €15k.
You can tell me a lot of stories but no way that this is in balance.

Not many people need P&P machines, so the development cost has to be spread amongst a low number of units.
This is also a chicken and egg problem IMO, if that entry machine would cost <€5k many more hobbieists would order one and numbers would go up.

Oh well I just have to face it  that a P&P is not going to be in my reach.

 

Offline Precipice

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2014, 09:18:26 pm »
There are some promising open source pick&place machines... They've been promising for quite a while now.

The cost in pnp isn't in the moving of a spindle accurately - it's moving a complicated head, from complicated feeder, past (simple, now) cameras, then placing it carefully.
The software is hard, if you want anything usable rather than trivial. Making that, and having it be a help, rather than a hindrance, is hard and takes money, people and effort.

You should be able to search for the thread about open source pnp, where I suggested, quite hard, that what hobbyists need, is a good manual++ system, rather than yet another half-arsed automated pnp machine. (As it turns out, they were building something that promised to be rather less half-arsed. Firepick or something? OpenPnP based software, and an interesting placement mechanism.)

Anyway, this stuff is annoyingly hard. A pick & place machine that gets it right 99% of the time is an abomination. Picking components correctly 100% of the time is hard with a capital H...
I'm sure that, eventually, an open source system will arrive. At that point, you'll discover what a pain it is, to load, program, setup and maintain a machine this complex, especially when it's only used occasionally. 

Build or buy a good manual machine, and get on with life... For larger volumes, sub it out. That's the firm opinion of this cynic (who owns more machines than is sane)

Edit: OP has volumes that make a pnp line a reasonable proposition, and he's still struggling to find a good setup. For occasional hobbyist use - I'd stay manual for now!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 09:24:07 pm by Precipice »
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Wanted to buy: Moderate pick and place line.
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2014, 09:26:27 pm »
Cars have now been in existence for over a hundred years... everybody owns one.. they are a commodity.

Why are they as expensive as specialty industrial equipment?
 


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