Author Topic: Can a SDR crash a plane ?  (Read 4582 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2018, 06:04:16 pm »
Realistically there is absolutely zero chance of a consumer SDR causing any issues whatsoever. Even if you hauled a 10kW transmitter onto the aircraft and found a way to power it up you wouldn't crash the plane. The worst you could reasonably accomplish that would be a real safety risk is to stomp on the frequencies used for radio communications with ATC. The regulations were written with an abundance of caution, not because there is any real risk of something happening.
 

Offline Jr460

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2018, 06:51:18 pm »
Again planes use an automated landing system at certain runways, now that is the most horrifying thing I can think of. as I believe another blackhat found it was spoof-able and the number of active radars was being reduced. Asking the question of what happens if you offset the ground by 100m, or the position so the plane comes up short, These ones would be hard for a pilot to correct for. and would come down to how paranoid they where of the automated systems.

CAT III ILS is what you are talking about.   If not needed the pilots are going to fly the CAT I or CAT II where with CAT I you break out of the clouds 200 feet above the ground.

I said, don't go all Die Hard II, but you did.......

ILS approaches have nothing to do with radar.  They use a localizer in the VHF range and a glide slope in UHF, and many times also DME.

You can't change the position of the ground.  The field is at an elevation above sea level, MSL.   Approach gives you the local altimeter setting.    So your ALT is reading the plane's MSL and doesn't depend on anything on the ground.  Even if ATC mess up and gives you something wrong, you are going to intercept the glide slope beam at the wrong spot, and know you have screwed the approach somehow and go around.   But the biggest thing, is once you break out of the clouds it becomes a visual approach.  So if somehow you were too low, you are going to hit DH, that is 200' for a CAT I before you break out, so you go missed.   Now the big guys have ground radar with also gives them the distance to the ground so when that doesn't match, with other things, you go missed.

I will not even get into required ground approach lighting and cues it gives as to the end of the runway, the VASI glide slope lights and runway lights and markings that all add to a correct and stable landing.

Now to move the position of something, end of the runway for example, you would've to go out on the field and take down the glide slope antenna and physical move it.  If the approach also has DME, then unless you move that antenna also, were you meet the glide slope will be wrong, go missed.  Maybe you can go out and screw with the GS elements on the pole so the slope is higher or lower, but then again, you will intercept it in the wrong place, go missed again.

The procedure is you ID the signals, and then while using it if the red flag drops in the instrument window, you go missed.   Also some distance from the airport is an ILS monitor on the ground, if it the signal goes away, or is wrong, it causes the ISL transmitter to go down, you get a red flag, you go missed.

You need to look at an approach plate.  You fly the initial at a set MSL, you will intercept the glide slope signal from below at fixed point.  You can tell this point from markers, DME or radial off of some other nav aid.   If you get the slope early or late you may be following a false lobe, you go missed.   It is not a matter of your trust of the ISL signals, it is a matter if you as the pilot messed up somehow.  Go missed and sort it out.   

All of the above works without Radar or taking to ATC.  But if those other two things are in the mix, then you would have to spoof the radar data, which would mess up all the radar tracks in the area, and ATC would know something is wrong.

The final nail in the Die Hard coffin.   ATC talks on the 2.5 meter VHF band, with AM modulation.  You don't need any fancy to listen to or talk to planes from the ground.  Up in the tower cab, (this is not the place approach controllers sit, as shown in movies, they are in a dark room at the base of the tower), they have a battery powered radio they can pull out and dial up the right frequency and listen and and talk to any plane.
 
The following users thanked this post: Georgi

Offline GeorgiTopic starter

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2018, 08:29:06 pm »
I did not expect the discussion to go that far, but I am very grateful it did.  I asked this question, because I was genuinely interested in the technical side of it. And I think you guys provided very detail information. Thank you to all who replied!
Regards
Georgi
 

Offline bson

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2018, 11:37:18 pm »
Any RF emission will cause a magnetic compass to deviate.  This in turn will produce an error in any auto pilot that relies on a magnetic compass to maintain heading.  And given the lag in using GPS data to calculate heading I would assume all auto pilots use a magnetic compass, perhaps with a declination correction from the navigation plotter/planner (to permit fallback on magnetic heading in case of system failure).
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2018, 12:04:46 am »
You'd need a hell of an RF emission to cause significant deviation of a magnetic compass. Compasses are used in all sorts of vehicles, including boats that have onboard VHF radios, radar, etc. Sure if you transmit right next to the compass it might do something but I've never seen any meaningful deviation in normal use.
 

Offline ignator

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2018, 12:09:10 am »
For RF to do this, it would most likely be a HIRF event that upsets the analog electronics that is part of a AHRS/AHS system.
Magnetic fields from intense magnets can be a problem.
I have heard of problems where the steel rebar in the runway was handled with a magnetic crane, and causes a deviation picked up by the flux detectors in the heading circuitry.
 

Offline bson

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2018, 01:53:19 am »
A quick test using a completely unshielded, but also relatively insensitive, consumer grade electronic compass, on a Suunto Vector, shows ANY RFI makes it deflect.  Merely turning on a cheap handset (Baofeng UV-5R) in the same room makes it deflect five degrees.  No keying necessary. Putting it next to an ethernet switch makes it never settle and effectively makes it output random numbers.

So, no, there is no inherent immunity or lack of sensitivity - in fact, the opposite applies and it's 100% about shielding and designing for immunity.  And the easiest way to improve the effectiveness of the shielding is to eliminate emissions in the first place.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2018, 01:54:57 am »
Primary autopilot stabilizing signal (wing roll level and rate of turn) is (almost?) invariably provided by a gyroscopic instrument (older APs) or a modern AHRS.
Magnetic anomalies or compass deviations will not upset autopilots.

You're more able to cause a magnetic deviation with a nail, a coil of wire, and a battery than an SDR.

By the time I'm falling back on the whiskey compass a primary means of navigation, several other things on the airplane have broken...
 

Offline bson

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2018, 02:43:37 am »
Even a gyro needs to be disciplined to a magnetic reference or it will drift.  There will always be a magnetic reference (seems to be called a slaving transmitter in aircraft terminology) and apparently it's common practice to mount these in a wingtip to minimize interference.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2018, 03:07:14 am »
Even a gyro needs to be disciplined to a magnetic reference or it will drift.  There will always be a magnetic reference (seems to be called a slaving transmitter in aircraft terminology) and apparently it's common practice to mount these in a wingtip to minimize interference.
I've owned three aircraft. Two had no magnetic inputs to stabilize or reference the autopilot control gyro.

First one had a turn coordinator based autopilot (Stec-50) that used no magnetic input in the autopilot whatsoever. Pure electrically-driven gyro that sensed rate of turn only (and had a separate channel for altitude hold). Any heading control that would be affected by a magnet had me in the loop (using various a ground-based navaid system [VORs], Loran, GPS, ATC vector, or the whiskey compass).

Second airplane used a similar setup, but was attitude-based and air-driven gyro (Century IV). Any heading control still had me in the loop, or was driven off a generated deviation signal from the WAAS GPS (GPS Steering). Still no magnets.

Third airplane does use a wing-mounted AHRS unit that uses a magnetometer for mid-term trimming/correction. Not nearly all APs can be upset (into a loss of control) by a magnetic anomaly.
 

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2018, 11:33:36 pm »
Quote
a 100mW SDR device will cause any serious issues
you know there are some lna who can power by 5V from usb? I gues the can use for transmitting to.
I dont know if the are legimidated but what happen when the creq is hearing that Warning Sound over there Headset:


When the ask over the Radio if someone else hear it the would say now becouse its that low power that just the creq heard it.

How about an Microwave Ofen Ray Gun?
Sure with an bad ass Powerbank behind.  :-DD Is the Cockpit Door RF Proof?  :-//
Made in Japan, destroyed in Sulz im Wienerwald.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Can a SDR crash a plane ?
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2018, 11:47:30 pm »
Quote
a 100mW SDR device will cause any serious issues
you know there are some lna who can power by 5V from usb? I gues the can use for transmitting to.

 :palm:

LNA is a low noise amplifier such as for a receiver, you can't transmit through that. Or, well, you can - once.
A power amplifier that would produce sufficient output power + antenna + power supply is going to be totally inconspicuous. Riiight ...

And that is only if you wanted to simply blanket the signals with interference - that would be a nuisance at best. If you wanted to produce a valid TCAS signal, you would also need a GPS and a way to produce a valid transponder signal - and be able to negotiate with the onboard TCAS in order to be able to generate any advisories (it is a two way system - the planes coordinate with each other so that they don't end up turning in the same direction and crashing into each other at a different altitude - one gets the order to descend and the other to climb).

Certainly possible technically but about as realistic threat as getting hit by a meteorite ...

I dont know if the are legimidated but what happen when the creq is hearing that Warning Sound over there Headset:

When the ask over the Radio if someone else hear it the would say now becouse its that low power that just the creq heard it.

Those messages are genuine. But they are a mix of various unrelated systems - GPWS, TCAS, etc. Those are cockpit warnings, nothing to do with radio. So no, nobody else but the crew in the cockpit can hear these so they are certainly not going to ask whether anyone else heard them.

And if you want to know what the crew procedures are when e.g. "TERRAIN TERRAIN" or "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC" sounds, all is well documented and available online.

How about an Microwave Ofen Ray Gun?
Sure with an bad ass Powerbank behind.  :-DD Is the Cockpit Door RF Proof?  :-//

 :palm:  :palm:

Here is a good explanation by an actual pilot about how TCAS works and what you would actually see and hear in the cockpit in case the system activates:



I suggest everyone to watch it first before fantasizing about planes.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 11:52:12 pm by janoc »
 


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