Also we have HT users in mountain repeater country accessing them with HTs a lot further out than 12 miles.
Because it really is LOS.
And we drive the receivers way down toward the noise floor with pre-amplification carefully balanced with filtering.
But. Frankly. They usually sound like crap and it gets old. Even a decent quarter wave rubber duck makes a huge difference in their signal quality by bringing things up just a couple of dB at the receiver site.
Nothing worse than having to tell someone new and excited about the hobby that their $30 HT from China just sounds like crap. Audio chain wise (on many of them) and RF signal strength wise... not to mention the ones that sneak out of the factory with their deviation set all wrong.
And mobile... ugh. Reflections, picket fencing in and out of the squelch threshold, in and out of terrain holes. Just sounds like crap.
We try, but when the mountain range the repeaters sit on is 25 miles away from the geographic center of town, there’s just not a lot we can do without multiple receiver sites. And that’s wonderful but a whole different engineering game and price tag on the repeater side of things.
100 miles out, hill topping, with a real 50W radio and a properly installed high gain antenna is really common too. It’s gotten harder over the last couple of decades with the general site noise and city RF noise though.
One site is nearly 5000’ over average terrain and people are amazed when we tell them that after filtering and combiner losses on a shared DUAL 8-bay VHF dipole array, one TX, one RX, stacked vertically (yes, it’s over twenty feet tall at VHF on a tower leg) with a pattern favoring the direction toward the city, the repeaters average about 7W to the antenna, and can be heard 100 miles out. Everywhere.
By far my favorite site. But not cheap either. 11,440’ MSL and town is roughly 5,300-6,000 MSL. View is great from up there, too. Working up there all day can make people hypoxic and dehydration is a big deal.
Nothing beats altitude if you can get it.