Debunk / Teardown suggestion: Scientology e-meter

[lundmar]

I would love to see Dave do a teardown video of the Scientology e-meter: http://www.scientology.org/what-is-scientology/the-practice-of-scientology/the-e-meter.html



Just to see how it tickles Daves BS-meter ha ha

You would have to be a moron of highest order to believe in this BS lol

I'm sure it would make an excellent video!

[Brumby]

[lundmar]

Ha ha yes, it's the human hot dog cooking machine!

I think the only positive thing that can be said about this scam device is that the mechanical design is well done.

[Gyro]

I can't see why you would think such a thing was useless - It's clearly got a clock display!

It may even have an alarm function for all you know. 

[Brumby]

It may even have an alarm function for all you know. 

I think that's the delayed start feature.

[lundmar]

C'mon guys, put a vote for yes. We need Dave to create this epic video

[bd139]

Watch it, they are lawyer trigger happy.

Back in the early 2000's my father reversed his Range Rover over one of their "free stress test" recruiting tables in the street "by accident" to protest his friend's suicide who was caught up in it all in the 90s. Police thought it was hilarious and refused to do anything about it or allow them to press charges as it was "clearly an accident ... snigger". He received some very strong legal threats after that. They had no grounds to prosecute on however as the police issued a statement to his legal counsel saying that the table had overhung the parking space and the local council said they were in violation of local street trade licenses. Mwuhahaha.

If you were to take that to bits, they'd send you for auditing with the lawyer shaped anal probe.

Bastards all of them.

[lundmar]

The difficulty is in obtaining one of those puppies. If some former scientologist has access to this magical device please send it to Dave!

I'm sure a tear down will reveal that there is no science in Scientology 

[bd139]

It's a fancy ohmmeter. Patent here: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/hubbard-patent.html

Teardown of an older unit here: http://xenu.freewinds.be/meter/e-meter_e.htm

I actually used a Leader LCR-740 to wind up the kids once by telling them it was a lie detector. Amazing how far you can take a credible looking device 

[babysitter]

Watch it, they are lawyer trigger happy.

Yeah, even posting the picture here might hurt them badly. Design copyright, you know.

[Brumby]

Watch it, they are lawyer trigger happy.

Yeah, even posting the picture here might hurt them badly. Design copyright, you know.

I doubt they would get anywhere with that ... Images can be found all over the internet and if you want to look deeper, you can always check out the Patent office.  For example....  U.S. Patent 2,684,670



This is all public domain.

[lundmar]

Sigh.. of course those Scientology scam artists made a patent on their magical device. 

[Assafl]

Why is it interesting? I suppose it would do little to degullibilize the gullible.

Once someone puts emotional capital in nonesense they are hard to reprogram. EMDR perhaps?

[lundmar]

Why is it interesting? I suppose it would do little to degullibilize the gullible.

I'm sure a tear down video will reveal some interesting things. DaveCam makes everything interesting.

You also have to consider the entertainment value - imagine Dave and Dave2 testing each other with the e-meter to see who is most conductive to Scientology lol

[mcinque]

Watch it, they are lawyer trigger happy.

Oh, like Lord Voldemort, you can't even say its name or you're in great trouble (but noone knows what exactly happens if you do).
So, according to this scary thing, anything that discredits scientology like the Discovery series "my escape from scientology" should have been banned (while it's still there).

[bd139]

Lots of people know what happens when you do: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)

Nothing should be banned but be prepared to lawyer up in return if you throw stones in that greenhouse.

Personally I’d like to fuck with them on a more covert scale rather than ridicule. Destroy them from within.

[lundmar]

"Ridicule is the proper response to beliefs such as Jesus' mother was a virgin, Joshua slowed Earth's rotation or Muhammad split the moon." Quote Richard Dawkins

I agree with Dawkins, and I would certainly not be afraid of ridiculing Scientology - it's a bat shit crazy religion.

[floobydust]

The E-meter as I understand is a Wheatstone bridge skin galvanometer that likes to oscillate, implying ET involvement. The meter movement dynamics are very important and specially tuned for Hubbard.
The three-transistor version has been around for ages but 8051 seems used now.

Basically scares a layman into spilling the beans, not so much a basic lie detector, meter just moves around based on sweat. High gain but not sure if pulse is also part of it.

Since you are recorded during your "clearing" (confession), this is a great way to acquire blackmail material.

Did you ever burn a 555 timer?
"uh might of" meter swings, oscillates
Did you do it on purpose?
"I don't think so, I forgot to ground it"
You don't like 555 timers, do you? meter pegs
"ok I hooked it up backwards" 

[PA4TIM]

a year ago someone asked me to make a copy of his meter. He gave a link to a site that did a teardown and wrote clearly why it was a bullshit-meter but he did not understand that. He also mailed me pictures of the inside (veroboard , long wiresa, bad soldering, tape and a hotglued 2 dollar multimeter) and a schematic I thanked for that. He then called me on the phone and offered a lot of euros if I made one. He had payed 5000 euro for his meter.  I did not do it.

But it was hard to say no because it was very kind man and I think he really believed that he helped people with it.

I can not find the pictures or I did not save them

[lundmar]

Oh cmon! Who are those scared infidels that vote to not wanna see what could become an epic debunk/teardown video! 

[CJay]

Exercise caution/restraint replying to this thread, there have been some forums which have found themselves subjected to some heavy duty harassment because of 'innocent' conversations and it's not unknown for people with an axe to grind to cause problems for forum owners by invoking conversations involving certain groups of people.

[Assafl]

Oh cmon! Who are those scared infidels that vote to not wanna see what could become an epic debunk/teardown video! 

I am one of those "scared" infidels. Not so "scared" as you would think (nor am I a plant for the evil ranch). *

1. I don't think it will "help". I do not think the gullible folk that are targeted by the Miscaviges (and his ilk) frequent engineering forums. Neither would they be on Stack Exchange. Just because folk here tend to view the world with a sceptic POV.

2. I do not think it is interesting. Bio feedback isn't interesting but it is a bit more than this. Real lie detectors are more interesting still. How does one gauge FP and FN rates for those?

3. I dislike electronics used as scam. I can make a needle move. Heck, my electrometer can be made to move by just walking across the room. But I think it is a scam to attribute Ohm's law to a Theton. Albeit I am sure that were Theton's real, they'd have some sort of resistance. If they sweated saline, perhaps their resistance would drop if they perspired. But I am no expert on the imaginary friends of L Ron. Even as science fiction it is meh.

4. There is some risk of credibility given when one is willing to have a discussion. Just like with audiophilia. If Dave were to say "what is that capacitor doing in a DC circuit?" then immediately their "creator" police would state that there are a lot of things Dave doesn't understand. Only a level 8 can... "Did you see how Dave failed to understand L Ron's still unequalled invention?".

I'd rather see yet another scope or the PC104 or mailbag rather than how shysters abuse electronics.

Sorry - but it is just me.

* (Edit) - As I was writing this I realized that perchance the this makes it out of the EEVblog crowd and saves even 1 poor, (obviously theton infested) soul - it would be worth it. Hence perhaps I am on the fence rather than squarely against it... 

[lundmar]

Geez, no offense, but you guys are over-thinking this simple matter and being way too PC. When did we all turn into snowflakes?

I'm only advocating to mix up the many calculator, multimeter, psu, etc. teardowns with something of a different nature and in this case a magical item which demands to be debunked.

We are not trying to save the world here - just entertain and inform people. 

[bd139]

Problem is the people who are promoting it are complete nutbags with a large budget and a lot of previous history who will want to cause you trouble.

[Assafl]

The op asked Y/N. I really don’t care if Dave does or not. And I answered no.

But that said, to entertain it isn’t. E-meters are some sort of Galvanometers or Ohm meters that are used to exploit and cause real harm to other people for money.

[Cerebus]

Oh cmon! Who are those scared infidels that vote to not wanna see what could become an epic debunk/teardown video! 

Easy for you to say, because it is not you and your family who would be hunted down and harassed by the scientology nutjobs but Dave and his family. I know someone who was for a number of years an active debunker of scientology, it was not a cost-free exercise for her, it got more than a little unpleasant.

If you're so gung-ho about it, you get the E-meter, you do the tear down video and you put it on youtube. Then you can deal with scientologist's lawyers, you can watch a bunch of the nutjobs stand just one inch outside your property line videoing your every move so that when you finally blow your top from the harassment they can get you prosecuted for assault; and that is just the beginning of the bag of tricks that they bring to bear against their critics. See the link posted above about "Fair Game" or any of the many documentaries about harassment and dirty tricks perpetrated by the scientologists over the years.

Baiting scientology is definitely one of the things that belongs on the list of "things you shouldn't ask other people to do unless you're prepared to do it first yourself".

[mcinque]

So, according to the "fair game" and scientology aggressive politics, we shouldn't see any e-meter teardown or criticism on the instrument on youtube or on the net, right?

However I undestand that it's easier to target a well known person instead an anonymous posting a single video in the net.

[Cerebus]

So, according to the "fair game" and scientology aggressive politics, we shouldn't see any e-meter teardown or criticism on the instrument on youtube or on the net, right?

However I undestand that it's easier to target a well known person instead an anonymous posting a single video in the net.

No, you just should know what you're asking someone else to get into before you start asking them to debunk scientology, and you'd better be prepared for what you're getting into if you're going to do it yourself. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done, just that it's not a solo sport, except for masochists. If you're going to do it, you're going to need back-up.

[pi^2]

I voted no, because I don't want to bring Dave and his family into trouble.
You people should take an evening and research Scientology and their fair game doctrine and you will be shocked.
These people are very nasty, it is just like disturbing a bees nest,...come prepared with protection and if not just leave them alone.

[floobydust]

I also voted "no". The electronics can be checked out, but the operation of it cannot really be investigated.

From the Scientology website:
"... In itself, the E-Meter does nothing. It is an electronic instrument that measures mental state and change of state in individuals and assists the precision and speed of auditing..."
"E-Meter is a shortened term for electropsychometer. It is a religious artifact used as a spiritual guide in auditing. It is for use only by a Scientology minister or a Scientology minister-in-training to help the preclear locate and confront areas of spiritual upset."

Another book excerpt:
"Theta bop: a rapid back-and-forth dance of the needle, from 1/8 to 1/2 inch wide, at a rate of 5-10 times per second. In more advanced texts it is revealed that a theta bop is seen when the thetan (spirit) is repeatedly leaving and reentering the body. "

I thought more about the ethics of the engineering behind the product- the CM doing electronics hardware design, firmware and enclosure, would cause a backlash if revealed.

[Brumby]

I don't see any upside in a teardown.

The circuitry is unlikely to be interesting and its operation can only be critically reviewed if it can be seen being used as intended.  Since that is unlikely, then there's no point.

... and even if you were able to get a hold of such footage, I can see an avalanche of trouble heading this way for all manner of reasons, starting with privacy.

[ChrisLX200]

I suspect the concensus of forum members would be that yes, it needs doing but no, not by Dave. They would almost certainly attack his YouTube channel and there are many ways to do that. It's not worth it - we all have a pretty good idea how Scientologists operate.

ChrisH

[nctnico]

Nothing should be banned but be prepared to lawyer up in return if you throw stones in that greenhouse.

Been there, done that! 

[lundmar]

Problem is the people who are promoting it are complete nutbags with a large budget and a lot of previous history who will want to cause you trouble.

It's sad that we live in a world where some things can not be criticized without the fear of physical or legal retaliation - it's a blow to the freedom of expression. This is particularly true for the United States which has become a culture dictated by trigger happy lawyers, lawsuits, and corruption.

[Gyro]

Without trying to drag up the whole issue again...  For UK TV licence payers, Louis Theroux's 'My Scientology Movie' is being repeated tonight (BBC2 11.15pm). It includes a fairly brief demonstration of the e-meter shown on the previous page 'working'.

[CJay]

"Theta bop: a rapid back-and-forth dance of the needle, from 1/8 to 1/2 inch wide, at a rate of 5-10 times per second. In more advanced texts it is revealed that a theta bop is seen when the thetan (spirit) is repeatedly leaving and reentering the body. "

It's also been demonstrated that music can have an effect on readings, the best type of music is something that's hotly debated among adherents to the theory but it's readily demonstrated that teen pop, especially that from boy bands, has the greatest effect, this is known among the higher level devotees as the Mmm Bop...

(yeah, terrible I know)

[Cerebus]

Without trying to drag up the whole issue again...  For UK TV licence payers, Louis Theroux's 'My Scientology Movie' is being repeated tonight (BBC2 11.15pm). It includes a fairly brief demonstration of the e-meter shown on the previous page 'working'.

Also watching it provides an opportunity to see quite how psychopathic adherents of scientology can be, and thus why some of us were saying "Don't ask Dave to do that".

BTW, this film just increases my amazement at how good Louis Theroux is. I've see similar documentaries before, and I've seen the scientologists come to harass the documentary makers and persist, and persist,  and persist, in that harassment. What I haven't see before is the scientlogists' harassment teams literally running away from the documentary makers.

[CJay]

Also watching it provides an opportunity to see quite how psychopathic adherents of scientology can be, and thus why some of us were saying "Don't ask Dave to do that".

That pretty much sums up why I said No to a teardown, you need deep pockets and a large chunk of anonymity to deal with that lot, they can be deeply unpleasant if they think you've wronged them.

Seconded on Louis Theroux and not just for the Scientology film, I've admired an awful lot of his work.

[Gyro]

BTW, this film just increases my amazement at how good Louis Theroux is. I've see similar documentaries before, and I've seen the scientologists come to harass the documentary makers and persist, and persist,  and persist, in that harassment. What I haven't see before is the scientlogists' harassment teams literally running away from the documentary makers.

I agree, he is pretty fearless when faced with such situations (presumably with a lot of forewarnings about what he was getting into). It was pretty funny watching the frantic retreats of the 'monitoring teams' amid clouds of cigarette smoke. There was definitely a feeling of them being sent out to do something without being prepared with any of the answers (reminded me of a few meetings I've attended / been suckered into  ).

I suddenly see Tom Cruise's 'intense focus' acting style in a new light now.

[Cerebus]

There are way more Jedi's in Australia than scientologists. I'd much rather see a light-sabre teardown.

Oh, no. Dave wouldn't look good without his eyebrows. 

[cdev]

I am surprised that they still are around.

[Brumby]

Has anyone checked that they're not like Groucho Marx's moustache?

[German_EE]

I voted no.

It's not that the Scientologists are evil assholes, they are evil assholes with better lawyers than Dave.

[dbillings]

All those transistors and resistors pointed every which way make perfect sense if you guys only knew how to detect thetans.  You guys are just jealous because you have crappy thetan levels.  Not like me, I have thetans for days...

[rhb]

There were a couple of headless (and IIRC handless) corpses found in Texas who were speculated to have been opponents of scientology.  I don't recall seeing anything after the newspaper report of the bodies being found.

The scientologists had a storefront on Guadalupe opposite UT Austin where they preyed upon stressed out students by offering "free" stress tests.  At a certain level of stress, people are easily influenced.  Pavlov studied this with dogs.   After WW II an ex-military psychiatrist toured the southern US and among other things investigated snake handling sects.  He encountered a young man who devotedly attended revivals.  Not because he had religious inclinations, but because he discovered that some of the girls could be easily persuaded to have sex after a revival meeting.  Sadly I cannot locate the book in my library to supply author and title.

[FrankBuss]

Another teardown, looks like a slightly more modern version:

https://hackaday.com/2018/07/19/whats-inside-a-scientology-e-meter/

He should really send it to Dave for a good laugh

[james_s]

I don't really think there's a whole lot to be learned. It has been known for a long time that it's little more than a Wheatstone bridge. Nobody who thinks this BS is genuine is going to be convinced by seeing the insides, it's only people to whom electricity is some kind of invisible black magic who are fooled by this sort of thing.

[bitwelder]

Wow, from a quick visit to ebay I was surprised to see they even made a 'left-handed' version, where the whole front panel is flipped left-right, i.e. the analog meter is on the left side.

[bd139]

They've got so much money they can afford to just burn it making crazy shit.

[wilfred]

Youtube channel "Play with Junk" just did quite a good one. Truly excellent in fact.

seek out "The Mark-Super-7 Quantum E-Meter (PWJ104)"