EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: masterx81 on February 05, 2018, 10:37:38 am
-
Hi! I'm searching the best bang for the bucks for a scope under 1000usd, with 4ch, at least 50mhz, i2c/spi/232/logic level analysis (>8ch digital inputs)
I've seen the Rigol MSO1074Z that seem to fit the requirements.
I don't know how is the resolution in the mv range, neither the internal "background noise" of this scopes, so i need, please, a bit of advice...
Someone have a better alternative?
Thanks!
-
https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/)
-
Really nice device! How it's compared to the rigol unit? Seem a more recent device, so i except it to be better.
Seem also a bit more sensitive than the rigol.
The firmware is mature/no bugs?
-
Seem a more recent device
Yep.
The firmware is mature/no bugs?
Nope.
(the two are often linked)
-
Seem also a bit more sensitive than the rigol.
10 times more.
Rigol lowest true full resolution (8bit) is 5mV/div.
1mV and 2mV/div are derived from 5mV/div only for scales.
But Rigol advertisemennts and fun boys do not tell it.
-
Ok, Siglent how often is updating the firmware to fix the issues? I think that this is an important thing to know.
How's about background noise? Form what i've seen searching over the net seem quite good.
I've an owon 7102 and it's TERRIBLE, a lot of background noise that made useless the lowest range :--
Sigilent seem a nice unit.
So Siglent seem the best device in this price range?
Really thanks for your feedback!
-
DSO-based logic analyzers are a waste of money, IMHO. Twisty knobs and DSO screens are simply the wrong user interface for that.
The serial decoding in DSOs is very useful for checking signal integrity, etc., when you're building circuits but not for decoding large amounts of data or hacking/debugging a serial protocol.
If a logic analyzer is important to you I'd get something PC based, eg Saleae. Mouse, keyboard, gigabytes of memory is the way to go.
-
Absolutely agree with you, for large data interpretation is useless, buh for small streams of data can be useful to have it handy, taking with you only the oscilloscope.
-
So if i want the scope the prices are (all from www.siglent.eu (http://www.siglent.eu)):
Scope: SDS1104X-E €429.00 + VAT
Logic analyzer: SLA1016 €383.00 + VAT
Then i need also the license (SDS1000X-E-16LA)? - Can't find the price on www.siglent.eu (http://www.siglent.eu)
The i2c decoding need hardware and/or licensing? Or use the analog inputs?
Thank you!
-
I'd take a look at the GW Instek MSO2074E. I know it is over your budget but at least the firmware is mature.
http://www.datatec.de/GW-Instek-Oszilloskop-MSO-2074E.htm (http://www.datatec.de/GW-Instek-Oszilloskop-MSO-2074E.htm)
-
DSO-based logic analyzers are a waste of money, IMHO. Twisty knobs and DSO screens are simply the wrong user interface for that.
The serial decoding in DSOs is very useful for checking signal integrity, etc., when you're building circuits but not for decoding large amounts of data or hacking/debugging a serial protocol.
If a logic analyzer is important to you I'd get something PC based, eg Saleae. Mouse, keyboard, gigabytes of memory is the way to go.
Once you worked with mixed signal systems, you change your mind about that. I had a system, where I had 2 SPI lines (from ADCs) four analog signal, and a bunch of control signals of multiplexers connected to a MSO. Trying to find settling time issues. There are many cases, where communication means sending 2-4 bytes, and then doing something. It is really useful for that.
-
DSO-based logic analyzers are a waste of money, IMHO. Twisty knobs and DSO screens are simply the wrong user interface for that.
The serial decoding in DSOs is very useful for checking signal integrity, etc., when you're building circuits but not for decoding large amounts of data or hacking/debugging a serial protocol.
If a logic analyzer is important to you I'd get something PC based, eg Saleae. Mouse, keyboard, gigabytes of memory is the way to go.
Once you worked with mixed signal systems, you change your mind about that. I had a system, where I had 2 SPI lines (from ADCs) four analog signal, and a bunch of control signals of multiplexers connected to a MSO. Trying to find settling time issues. There are many cases, where communication means sending 2-4 bytes, and then doing something. It is really useful for that.
I agree. A logic analyser typically can't show signals realtime and it cannot show related analog signals (unless it has a DSO module).
-
The serial decoding in DSOs is very useful for checking signal integrity, etc., when you're building circuits but not for decoding large amounts of data or hacking/debugging a serial protocol.
...Trying to find settling time issues. There are many cases, where communication means sending 2-4 bytes, and then doing something. It is really useful for that.
Those "2-4 bytes" would be covered by the part where I said "very useful useful for checking signal integrity, etc."
The PC stuff comes into play when "decoding large amounts of data or hacking/debugging a serial protocol" - the second half of the sentence.
I only mentioned it because the OP mentioned "i2c/spi/232/logic level analysis" in the very first line of his post. This made me think it might be important to him.
I agree. A logic analyser typically can't show signals realtime and it cannot show related analog signals (unless it has a DSO module).
Ditto.
-
So if i want the scope the prices are (all from www.siglent.eu (http://www.siglent.eu)):
Scope: SDS1104X-E €429.00 + VAT
Logic analyzer: SLA1016 €383.00 + VAT
Then i need also the license (SDS1000X-E-16LA)? - Can't find the price on www.siglent.eu (http://www.siglent.eu)
SDS1000X-E-16LA
MSO function software for SDS1000X-E oscilloscope, 16 channel, 500 MSa/s, 14 Mpts US$109
The i2c decoding need hardware and/or licensing?
Neither, all protocols are included free.
-
The price for the options is fairly high, costs more the 16 logic channels + license than the scope itself ::)
-
The price for the options is fairly high, costs more the 16 logic channels + license than the scope itself ::)
Yeah, we know.
Check out the same bundle pricing of the competitors...........
-
I don't understand why sell the software license and the hardware needed separately [emoji848]
In any case the scope itself cost less than (for example) the rigol and have better hw specs (in the rigol 1000z series the decoding is accessory - but as from what i've read the unit was quite hacked [emoji33])
Inviato dal mio SM-A520F utilizzando Tapatalk
-
I don't understand why sell the software license and the hardware needed separately [emoji848]
In any case the scope itself cost less than (for example) the rigol and have better hw specs (in the rigol 1000z series the decoding is accessory - but as from what i've read the unit was quite hacked [emoji33])
Inviato dal mio SM-A520F utilizzando Tapatalk
You buy licence and probe.
All know that probes can wear and tear. Just like car tyres or hand tools or toothbrush. After bad, buy new. All who use oscilloscopes etc tools for work know this and buying continyously new probes is just as buying continuously new teethbrush. (depending about how heavy they are used example specially on the field use or perhaps bit less in lab)
LA probe expensive? Really? It is not at all what ever wire or flat cable and hooks, like example in some "soap box LA toys". Look how much LeCroy, Tek or Keysight LA probes cost.
License for activate this MSO function is just one time buy.
(Afaik not yet available. and also if someone find some image about SLA1016 I can tell that some sellers use wrong image, example Batterfly what list SLA1016 but product image is not at all SLA1016. Real SLA1016 have Sbus connector.)
-
The serial decoding in DSOs is very useful for checking signal integrity, etc., when you're building circuits but not for decoding large amounts of data or hacking/debugging a serial protocol.
...Trying to find settling time issues. There are many cases, where communication means sending 2-4 bytes, and then doing something. It is really useful for that.
Those "2-4 bytes" would be covered by the part where I said "very useful useful for checking signal integrity, etc."
The PC stuff comes into play when "decoding large amounts of data or hacking/debugging a serial protocol" - the second half of the sentence.
I only mentioned it because the OP mentioned "i2c/spi/232/logic level analysis" in the very first line of his post. This made me think it might be important to him.
I agree. A logic analyser typically can't show signals realtime and it cannot show related analog signals (unless it has a DSO module).
Ditto.
It is not really signal integrity. Signal integrity is "just" analog inspection of digital signals (well, more than that). You cannot do that with a logic analiser.
Mixed signal is where the MSO shines, hence the name, D'OH!
It is one of those cases, where you just haven't used an equipment, that others need. I was fine for years without a timer-counter. And then there was a project, where it became essential.
Also, there are very useful trigger conditions for modern scopes, like they can error frame or I2C violation and others. You can just leave the scope connected overnight and see in the morning if there were any issues with your communication, how many times, etc... all this in a small box, without PC.
Anyway, we are off topic, and we kinda agree so let's just move on.
-
Any kind soul can suggest a scope in the market that can decode I2C/SPI, CAN bus and ARINC429 in real time over SCPI (LAN + USB 3) around Usd1k price range?
I am currently using picoscope 3000 series and although it has a nice GUI that decode these signals but it is lacking the automate command for automate trigger and save decoded signal in hex values into individual csv file for manufacturing testing.
-
Maybe you can fix this with macros. You would need to record / run macro that does needed stuff on capture. However when looking at Alarms I do not see obvious possibility to run macro. Maybe missing something. But, macros can be run from command line targeting working PS6 instance. Type picoscope /?. Since Alarms can run executables you could possibly exec needed macro from there. If this does not work maybe then is second option. Just Alarm / save capture on one instance to get raw psdata into file. And load psdata / run macros on another instance from command line.
And if need serial trigger you could buy cheap knobbed DSO and use trigger out to Picoscope, but doubt any of them does ARINC429?
Should you get it almost working but some little detail spoils all suggest complain there:
https://www.picotech.com/support/ (https://www.picotech.com/support/)
-
The PS6 software for picoscope allows the user to automate the process of setting trigger and capture the required data using Psmacro.
However the captured data is only limited to voltage / time in csv.
I actually ended up spending some time to write a script (in python) to decode the signals in the background for each stream of data captured (which the nice GUI is actually displaying the decoded data in real time over the monitor screen that I really needs to capture).
It will be nice if there is some scope out there that can capture the decoded data into a file by default.
Example:
decoded data (hex) time stamp
-
However the captured data is only limited to voltage / time in csv.
CAN decode, Export button in Serial Decoding window, excerpt from CSV:
Packet,Start Time (s),End Time (s),ID,RTR,FDF,DLC,Data,CRC,ACK,CRC Valid,Bit Stuffing Valid,Valid,IDE
1,-0.00948167082214013,-0.00935527082869438,1 99,0,0,2,01 04,55 93,0,1,1,1,0
2,-0.00922147083758773,-0.00899307085019753,2 99,0,0,8,83 16 00 83 19 00 83 19,50 2E,0,1,1,1,0
3,-0.00895147085361714,-0.00870907086705809,1 9A,0,0,8,20 00 40 00 00 00 00 00,06 E1,0,1,1,1,0
4,-0.00778107092310165,-0.00754087093641199,4 1A,0,0,8,20 00 40 80 18 00 00 00,4B 0F,0,1,1,1,0
5,-0.00401687114657534,-0.00379067115905453,2 99,0,0,8,83 12 00 83 12 00 83 19,13 89,0,1,1,1,0
6,-0.00374887116248601,-0.0035104711756895,2 9A,0,0,8,20 00 40 80 00 00 00 00,68 E2,0,1,1,1,0
7,-0.00295447120964809,-0.00272427122236476,4 59,0,0,8,20 00 40 00 11 A1 0A 00,66 9E,0,1,1,1,0
8,-0.00264827122782663,-0.0024158712406739,1 8D,0,0,8,02 00 00 00 18 F9 E1 01,06 A9,0,1,1,1,0
9,-0.00128207130893543,-0.00103767132249512,1 94,0,0,8,06 00 00 00 00 00 00 00,67 CA,0,1,1,1,0
10,0.00132592853623237,0.00155432852362257,4 99,0,0,8,83 15 00 83 16 00 19 00,44 68,0,1,1,1,0
...or macro recorder wont record all needed steps?
Edit: Indeed, macro recorder seems to not see actions in SD window. Suggest poke their tech support. I did remember thinking about this once and idea occurred to use some external third party macro recorder software.
-
However the captured data is only limited to voltage / time in csv.
CAN decode, Export button in Serial Decoding window, excerpt from CSV:
Packet,Start Time (s),End Time (s),ID,RTR,FDF,DLC,Data,CRC,ACK,CRC Valid,Bit Stuffing Valid,Valid,IDE
1,-0.00948167082214013,-0.00935527082869438,1 99,0,0,2,01 04,55 93,0,1,1,1,0
2,-0.00922147083758773,-0.00899307085019753,2 99,0,0,8,83 16 00 83 19 00 83 19,50 2E,0,1,1,1,0
3,-0.00895147085361714,-0.00870907086705809,1 9A,0,0,8,20 00 40 00 00 00 00 00,06 E1,0,1,1,1,0
4,-0.00778107092310165,-0.00754087093641199,4 1A,0,0,8,20 00 40 80 18 00 00 00,4B 0F,0,1,1,1,0
5,-0.00401687114657534,-0.00379067115905453,2 99,0,0,8,83 12 00 83 12 00 83 19,13 89,0,1,1,1,0
6,-0.00374887116248601,-0.0035104711756895,2 9A,0,0,8,20 00 40 80 00 00 00 00,68 E2,0,1,1,1,0
7,-0.00295447120964809,-0.00272427122236476,4 59,0,0,8,20 00 40 00 11 A1 0A 00,66 9E,0,1,1,1,0
8,-0.00264827122782663,-0.0024158712406739,1 8D,0,0,8,02 00 00 00 18 F9 E1 01,06 A9,0,1,1,1,0
9,-0.00128207130893543,-0.00103767132249512,1 94,0,0,8,06 00 00 00 00 00 00 00,67 CA,0,1,1,1,0
10,0.00132592853623237,0.00155432852362257,4 99,0,0,8,83 15 00 83 16 00 19 00,44 68,0,1,1,1,0
...or macro recorder wont record all needed steps?
Edit: Indeed, macro recorder seems to not see actions in SD window. Suggest poke their tech support. I did remember thinking about this once and idea occurred to use some external third party macro recorder software.
Or even better yet, in Alarms, you can save finished acquisitions. They should add "Save decoded data" as an action.
That way it would capture, save, rearm..