Author Topic: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference  (Read 370545 times)

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Offline 0xpanacea

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #325 on: January 20, 2017, 02:41:55 am »
The GPS on my board is the NEO-7M-0-000

The marking on it is 1PPS&10k GPSDO

BG7TBL 2016-05-01
 

Offline 0xpanacea

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #326 on: January 21, 2017, 01:27:17 am »
that looks like it ! thanks !
 

Offline K1FPV

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #327 on: January 21, 2017, 07:43:00 pm »
Is Lady Heather rounding off the altitude?

Yes, mine is rounded off at 50.000000 Meters in altitude while 2 other programs say 48 & 53 meters in elevation.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #328 on: January 21, 2017, 10:59:35 pm »
My problem is I've gotten spoiled by another (fun and educational) program that doesnt work with most cheap hardware but does with some, which does all the calculation itself, simply pulling raw data out of the GPS. Basically it uses the GPSs as one would use a giant tape measure. It has accuracy thats better than one meter and so to see it rounded off to the nearest meter was disconcerting to me.. (stupid because most GPSs, even nice timing GPSs are not accurate enough to make it matter beyond one meter, so adding extra digits of phony accuracy is meaningless)

Not that I am actually using this accuracy right now, just dicking around with the hardware and trying to figure out what the best cheap antenna solution is. (The key to it being super accurate is the antenna)

Cheap, high precision GPS is similar to high precision voltage or current or timing measurement, its one of those tools that lends itself to the solving of zillions of problems.  Things people otherwise wouldn't think of as possible.

For example, the fact that all the satellites exact positions are known and so even the tiniest movement of the receiver can be determined, means that RTKlib can be used for measuring the exact movement of the land during an earthquake. The differences in RF absorption and reflectance can be used to calculate things about the ground beneath the receiving antenna..  it could be used for automation in agriculture and construction.,  stuff like that.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 11:08:51 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline texaspyro

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #329 on: January 21, 2017, 11:09:32 pm »
Is Lady Heather rounding off the altitude?

Yes, mine is rounded off at 50.000000 Meters in altitude while 2 other programs say 48 & 53 meters in elevation.

Lady Heather doesn't round off anything.  It reports the value that the receiver sends... much to some people's chagrin.   If the receiver sends an altitude value with 7 decimal places, that's what gets shown.  There's no way a GPS can be that accurate, but if that's what the receiver says, that's what gets shown.  If the receiver rounds the altitude to the nearest mile, that's what gets shown. 

The number if digits that Heather uses to display the receiver values was chosen to make the lat/lon/alt columns align and look pretty...
 

Offline Gixy

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #330 on: January 29, 2017, 05:04:53 pm »
Receive last version (2016-05-31) of BG7TBL on Friday:
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/171742240714?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Kind vendor (diyelecmall108), very reactive: ordered on 01-16, received on 01-27.
The device is excellent, GPS lock is fast (a few minutes), even inside my house.
Here is a screen copy of the square wave signal.
Connected to the PC with a RS232-USB interface (be carefull, it is true RS232, with negative voltage). I tried Lady Heather then u-center. At the moment I prefer u-center, as I didn't succeed in displaying something with large enough characters with Lady Heather (even with /vc=1360x768).
Thanks to the antenna fitted with a 5 meters cable, next week I will install the antenna on the roof and will have then a quite professional installation :-)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 05:07:05 pm by Gixy »
 

Offline Dwaine

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #331 on: February 11, 2017, 04:22:15 pm »
I have my gpsdo hooked up to my raspberry pi. Using a GPS antenna from eBay.   It's working great.  I still have to get my level shifter working to get the extended details in Lady Heather.  I also use the same raspberry pi for my data logger and graphing.
 

Offline DaJMasta

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #332 on: February 18, 2017, 05:00:08 am »
I got a new RF generator recently and in testing it and checking its internal oscillator, I may have stumbled on an issue with the BG7TBL GPSDO that I've got... I believe it's the most recent version, but I've posted it earlier in this thread (now there's BNC holes through the date on the PCB front panel  ;) )

Anyways, I was using a Fluke PM6690 (12 digits/s 100ps resolution counter with 1s gate time) with a high stability reference (not the highest stability option, but two up from base model TCXO) and my new HP E4431B ESG-D generator, also with the high stability internal reference option.  I had the generator going straight into the option C input on the counter and a 1GHz -20dB signal turned on.

With the external reference for both, the timing noise is quite low (both instruments are pretty high spec), amounting to 3x10^-12 peak to peak frequency variation over almost 2000 seconds of recording time:


So using the shared external reference, there is very little variation in either the generation or counting of signals - a sanity check for the quality of the system.

Then with each instrument using their own internal oscillators, you see a predicted fluctuation due to the oven operation, up to 0.7Hz (7x10^-11) peak to peak:



But when you assign one instrument to the external GPSDO reference and one to its own (and this goes for either instrument), while the performance is still slightly better than the internal oscillators... there's a very strange step behavior from the GPSDO timing signal, which is clear and obviously visible.  It's also not characteristic of the response of regular drift in a frequency standard - it looks almost like it's the visible steps of the DAC being used to drive the OCXO's adjustment voltage (for reference, the fine adjustment of the HP E4431B's oscillator has a step size of 1/2 to 1/3 of this, somewhere between 100 and 150 mHz at 1GHz generated).
First with the counter locked to the GPSDO:


Then with the generator locked to the GPSDO:




Some really odd looking behavior... and given that the spec was advertised with a least significant digit ballpark of 10^-12.... I don't have real confidence that it's getting there, at least in the current configuration.  The GPS was locked to 8+ satellites the whole time (verified through the serial port), and while either instrument with the GPSDO referenced to the other had better performance than just the internal oscillators.... it really wasn't by much.... and if you figure that the runtime for the two instrument oscillators on their own was twice as long, they may actually have had better short term stability than the GPSDO's oscillator.  While the GPSDO should still have either one bested in terms of long-term drift, I was a bit disappointed in the short term timing and the strange frequency artifacts i measured in this test.

Probably still worth the $140 or so it cost, but I had higher hopes for it than what this suggests.
 

Offline K1FPV

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #333 on: February 21, 2017, 08:53:47 pm »
Well, I guess the reason for buying it and how it is used can mean much more to some folks than others. I bought mine initially as a backup to my HP-58503A. I use the 10 MHz reference with my B&K Precision 1823A 2.4 GHz counter. I use this combo periodically to check the frequency readout of my various pieces of equipment. When reading the frequency of TCXO's on various rigs, if the TCXO is 99.999999 MHz or less, I can get an accurate reading down to 1/10th of a Hertz. When I switch from the HP reference to the BG7TBL reference, I usually see no difference. I've since acquired a Spectracom GPS Ageless Master Oscillator, and it too sees no difference.

For what I am using it for as I'm sure most amateurs who periodically use it for working on radios to check frequency, it is a decent reference. If more accuracy is needed, then I'm sure other more costly GPS references would be needed especially if the frequency measurements were well above 1 GHz and needing a clean output. But for most typical amateur radio use, this reference is a good buy for the $$$.
 

Offline usagiTopic starter

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #334 on: March 28, 2017, 07:37:03 am »
i suspect the oscilloquartz and trimble based bg7tbl units don't have these artifacts.

Offline K1FPV

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #335 on: March 29, 2017, 04:36:10 pm »
Hi Folks, I just recently picked up a Zyfer 380-210 GPSDO for a heck of a good price. I hooked it up and it locked on the the GPS sats relatively quick and when checking the accuracy of the 10 MHz output, it was dead on according to my setup  which measures down to .01 Hz. My question is what software monitors or controls this GPSDO? Lady Heather 5.0 won't even recognize it and I've tried several other programs without success.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Bill
K1FPV
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #336 on: March 29, 2017, 05:19:03 pm »
Receive last version (2016-05-31) of BG7TBL on Friday:
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/171742240714?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

It is not the latest Version. My Board (2016-5-1, same layout and OCXO) includes a newer Ublox NEO-7M-0-000. Your's is a much older NEO 6, if the pictures are correct.

Lady Heather 5.0 won't even recognize it and I've tried several other programs without success.

Anyone have any suggestions?
 

Did you check the protocoll with a terminal programm like hyperterm minicom  or something like that ?
Check out which protocoll this thing use, thats the first you have to do.
Then you can try U-Center witzh the ublox or NMEA protocoll. Some NMEA runs with the Thunderbolt Monitor only. http://www.prc68.com/I/ThunderBolt.shtml
The Ublox wouldnt work with the Thunderbolt Monitor.
Maybe you post a few pix, which kind of GPS receiver is included ? 
 

Offline ExplodingLemur

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #337 on: March 29, 2017, 06:18:25 pm »
Does the frequency offset issue still exist with the latest version BG7TBL units?  Has anyone tried slurping the firmware off to see where the issue is?
 

Offline K1FPV

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #338 on: March 29, 2017, 07:44:02 pm »
Yes to all the have you tried xxxxx ! Lady Heather is oblivious to the receiver as is SatStat, U-Center, GPS-Con, PUTTY, Termite 3.3 & GPS View! I've had the receiver running for quite a few hours and it is rock stable on 10 MHz. I'd just love to be able to see what is going on internally and/or control the receiver.

I got the typical excuse from Zyfer that it is obsolete and no longer supported. I'll bet if I could look, they would still have the software for this receiver someplace. The actual name Zyfer gave it is the NanoSync, model 380-210, rev. H. Too bad....it is a cute and compact unit. 

 

Online edpalmer42

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #339 on: March 29, 2017, 09:39:04 pm »
Did you find the manuals for it?  According to the User's Manual and RS-232 Programming Manual, it should respond to any terminal program.

Ed
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #340 on: March 30, 2017, 12:00:24 am »
Ya, this picture says nothing.
You have to find RXD, TXD and GND.
Follow the traces from the UART connector and find the chip. Sometimes it is a simple rs232 converter/level shifter, sometimes they goes direct to the controller. Try find the Datasheet.
With a scope it is easy to find the UART lines at the connector pins.
You have connect them to a TTL - USB converter, NOT direct to the RS232 from the PC, because it is a TTL Signal. Rx -to Tx and Tx to Rx. GND to GND. With some probing you can easy find the data in a terminal program.
Most times it is 9600,8,N,1 and you should see anything. If you see nothing, you have a wrong hardware wiring. If you see crap, play with the settings.
 
Maybe someone with better english can help you.

Take it apart and make better pictures, so maybe we can help you than.
For sure you have a trimble chipset if it helps...
 

Offline usagiTopic starter

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #341 on: March 30, 2017, 09:23:53 pm »
contact trimble and see if you can get documentation for the board. oscilloquartz was kind enough to provide us with documentation for their gpsdo.

Offline Fennec

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #342 on: March 30, 2017, 11:56:22 pm »
contact trimble and see if you can get documentation for the board.

To find two simple datalines ? Sry, but a lill overkilled, don't you think ?!

oscilloquartz was kind enough to provide us with documentation for their gpsdo.

Which information you got ? A few pictures or more ?
Did you got the source-code for the AVR, because an U-Blox M8 wouldn't work in this unit. Downgrade to a U-Blox 6M is also not possible. I don't know why.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 11:57:57 pm by Fennec »
 

Offline usagiTopic starter

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #343 on: March 31, 2017, 05:41:21 am »
oscilloquartz was kind enough to provide us with documentation for their gpsdo.

Which information you got ? A few pictures or more ?
Did you got the source-code for the AVR, because an U-Blox M8 wouldn't work in this unit. Downgrade to a U-Blox 6M is also not possible. I don't know why.

see this post. you did read the whole thread, didn't you?  ;D

Online edpalmer42

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #344 on: March 31, 2017, 06:49:15 am »
contact trimble and see if you can get documentation for the board. oscilloquartz was kind enough to provide us with documentation for their gpsdo.

Trimble doesn't know anything about it.  FEI-Zyfer took a Trimble GPS receiver and put it into their GPSDO.  Only the FEI-Zyfer manuals will help K1FPV.  Luckily, the Wayback Machine has copies of those documents.

Ed
 

Offline Fennec

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #345 on: March 31, 2017, 06:55:18 pm »
see this post. you did read the whole thread, didn't you?  ;D

I am not sure what you want to tell me with your post. Your Link has nothing, but really nothing to do with the bg7tbl.

Does anyone tested the U-Blox M8 in this Unit without the US-GPS?
China and russian GPS works fine, but it wouldn't lock. I think there is a different data string between the U-Blox M7 and M8 that the AVR not "understand". I'll check it later, if I have any idea how I can put the complete U-Blox board onto the BG7TBL withount desolder all the chips.
Also I have to find a way to "pinning" the Ovens. I think I have 5 or more different Oven here and I wanna test them in this device.

Ideas are welcome.

My Unit is the latest one 5/31/2016 but with the newer U-Blox neo M7
 

Offline usagiTopic starter

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #346 on: March 31, 2017, 07:11:18 pm »
Yes to all the have you tried xxxxx ! Lady Heather is oblivious to the receiver as is SatStat, U-Center, GPS-Con, PUTTY, Termite 3.3 & GPS View! I've had the receiver running for quite a few hours and it is rock stable on 10 MHz. I'd just love to be able to see what is going on internally and/or control the receiver.

the trimble documentation for this gps receiver:

Serial ports/1PPS: CMOS TTL levels
Supported Protocols: TSIP @ 9600 baud, 8-Odd-1 (confi gurable)
TAIP @ 4800 baud, 8-None-1 (confi gurable)
NMEA 0183 v2.1 @ 4800 baud, 8-None-1 (confi gurable)
RTCM SC-104 @ 4800 baud, 8-None-1
NMEA messages: GGA, VTG, GLL, ZDA, GSV, GSA and RMC
messages selectable by TSIP command; selection
stored in non-volatile memory

you will need to probe the 8-pin header on the left of the trimble board for RS232 access direct to the gps.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 07:14:17 pm by usagi »
 

Offline usagiTopic starter

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #347 on: March 31, 2017, 10:59:20 pm »
the zyfer unit appears to be using a morion OCXO. given zyfer's relationship with morion, this seems likely.

Offline usagiTopic starter

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #348 on: April 01, 2017, 05:49:07 am »
I got the typical excuse from Zyfer that it is obsolete and no longer supported. I'll bet if I could look, they would still have the software for this receiver someplace. The actual name Zyfer gave it is the NanoSync, model 380-210, rev. H. Too bad....it is a cute and compact unit.

here you go. page 2-3 shows the pinout.  you should be able to hack a connector up and see if lady heather can talk to the trimble.

Offline richnormand

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Re: bg7tbl gpsdo master reference
« Reply #349 on: April 30, 2017, 04:40:41 pm »
Quick question to the experts on this thread:

just got a Trimble 57963-D board. I get the 1PPS pulses OK and the 10MHz signal once it has done the self-survey at the proper connectors.
All fine up to date from the hardware point of view. LED behaviour is also as expected.

Using Lady-Heather with the RS-232 J5 contacts, it finds it OK and seem to be working BUT for one thing. It only seems to update every two seconds.

Then I used the Teraterm terminal emulator to talk to the unit but it does seem to be outputting the time and other data every two seconds all by itself (not on request) thus messing up the communications.
It looks like the unit is programmed to output the time data every two seconds. That messes up communications. Is there an easy way to set up the board to go in request mode and only output that data when asked?

Cheers and thanks.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 04:42:41 pm by richnormand »
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