Brand new BM869s or used Fluke 287?

[WaveyDipole]

Rather than ask me how to go about modifying the UT181A to make it more robust, I suggest that you contact UNI-T.  The designed the meter.  Tell them you are interested in the product but you are concerned with it's lack of robustness.  Maybe they will come out with an improved version.  I would like to see it myself.    Asking me will achieve nothing.   

I thought I would get myself one high spec meter as a retirement present. 

For what it is worth, if this really is the criteria and part of high spec to you means robust, get a meter that meets this goal by design.  Don't EVERY consider modifying a handheld meter that you plan to use.   Meter's I have modified are purely for educational / entertainment only. 

If you want to learn more about how I would tackle a problem like this, I suggest watching the videos on the UT61E where I walk you through the steps I took.   Even with these videos, it was never my intent to provide detailed information on exact values I chose as to allow an uneducated person to attempt these mods but rather my attempt to try and help a small group of people understand that simply adding MOVs to the UT61E may not improve the meters ability to withstand an ESD event.   

I absolutely take your point about this. Contacting Uni-T is also a good idea and I plan to do that. If not for the ESD protection letting it down, they would have had a sale. As it stands, the meter is out of the running, which is a shame.

If you can get a new/used 289 with the latest firmware, no severe internal supercapacitor leakage issue,
and prepared to work through all the menus and learn the ropes (childs play) taking notes along the way
the 289 is hard to beat, and the few seconds of ON boot time really isn't the deal breaker some whine on about   

Thanks for pointing out the supercapacitor issue. I wasn’t aware of that. Have just looked it up.

I have both the Fluke and the Brymen.

For daily use I almost always reach for the Brymen. The batteries last longer and it turns on much faster.

I really only use the fluke for logging and for when I need extra meters.

Interesting observation. Why do you usually reach for the Brymen?

I can say I personally don't buy used measurement equipment if I don't plan to send it to factory for repair and calibration..
Used Fluke is not Fluke. It is potentially dangerous, out of calibration crap until proven otherwise. Proven is the word here.
...
What is the purpose of Porsche with a shut engine ? So your can brag you have one.. NO thanks.
What is the purpose of buying allegedly 0,025% instrument for a lot of money (it is expensive because it is allegedly that good) if some idiot measured around microwave transformers and it is now all kinds of damaged inside.. But looks real nice...
…
Fluke meter (or any other premium goods to that matter) is not a magical object that can not fail and is perfect by definition..
It is a fine instrument made by company that has best reputation in industry that instruments they make are good quality, and well made and calibrated when they LEAVE the factory. Broken Fluke equipment is, well, electronics waste, like everything else...
…
Also, said Brymen is a "SERIOUS feature packed meter".. I personally like it better that Fluke 87V .
And the fact that i had enough leftover money to buy an entry level oscilloscope was a bonus...
...
Unless you need graphical logging on the instrument, you don't need 289. And if you do, there are 70-100MHz 1GSa/s 2 channel handheld oscilloscopes to be had for the price of new 289...  Think about that ...

But if you have a budget, and would like to buy Fluke, then by all means, You won't be sorry.

Correct, he didn't mention it, because everybody seems to think that Fluke meters cannot go out of spec somehow.
Used one must be thoroughly checked if it is in spec. On a 0.025% meter it is a challenge, equipment and proper procedure wise..
If you have the knowledge and other high end equipment to do calibration yourself, than it's OK not send it to Fluke.
A friend of mine is in charge of instrument repair and calibration in local petrol refinery... Go ask him, they pretty much run Fluke shop.. They get damaged and out of spec all the time. Not because Fluke is crap, it is fantastic, but people do horrible things to them..

All good points to think about, thank you. However, bragging does not even come into it. Reliability, stability and longevity do and Fluke is an established brand in this regard and there are many comments about how they do not drift with age, which does not usually something that gets said about other meters. I do however take your point that anything used cannot be guaranteed to be in calibration, will need to be checked, and may need to be calibrated which adds to the cost.

These are new old stock and will need a new rechargeable battery but it's a really nice meter for the price.  There's a thread on it here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bunch-of-keysight-u1252b-meters-around/
...
The seller is legit although he sometimes takes a week to ship.  While these are new-old-stock, they come in the original packaging with all the accessories including charger and rechargeable NiMh battery.  My battery seemed OK but I replaced it with a $13 Powerex MHR84VP low self-discharge 8.4 V battery and I can leave it on the bench for months and then it works fine.  The contrast is perfect, the pictures that show the meter often show the OLED version which does look weird but the U1252B is the (cheaper) LCD version so the orange color is just the backlight (I've added a couple of pictures for you) and you can log 200 points to the meter or infinite to a PC via an optional cable or even Bluetooth link (which I own).

Thanks for the reassurance regarding the seller and the pics of the display.

FWIW, where will OP take his Brymen meter to get fixed or get parts if/when it goes belly up?
Where will he take/send it to get calibrated?

With a high end Fluke with quite a few years of support left, it's not an issue

I have also been thinking about that. Since I live in Europe, I have been in touch with the primary for Europe which seems to be Biall in Poland and they have been very helpful. I guess it would have to be sent there, however, when I was offered pricing along with a mention of an optional calibration certificate, I asked what the cost of the calibration certificate would and got this response:

Regarding to calibration certificate, our measuring laboratory can calibrate multimeters up to 4 1/2 digit.
BRYMEN multimeters are 5 4/5 digit so, taking into consideration principal of calibration we are not able to issue calibration certificate for above multimeters.

So where indeed would I send it to be calibrated? There is also TMS, but I have seen a few bad commentsa about them, particularly when it comes to communication, so I would want to avoid purchasing there and certanly going there for after service.

[2N3055]

Welectron  in Germany is my choice these days.. Give them a call see what they'll say. But calibration can be performed by any decent lab, nothing special about it.

[WaveyDipole]

Of all my Flukes, the 189 is the only one I bought new, back in 2004 IIRC. I'd wanted my own Fluke for years, and decided to treat myself before all my funds were eaten up by an impending house move and other significant life events. A lovely meter, but it was a rude introduction to Fluke's meanness - I was astonished that the necessary software and cable didn't come by default with a logging multimeter Last time I looked, it was around £200 - I got mine as unopened NOS for £100 from eBay.

Yes, I have seen them for around 200GBP. Absolutely extortionate, but am currently watching a used Fluke that comes with one.

I use an 87V most of the time. Quite apart from battery life, it's rare the extra precision of the 189 or 287 is required (and when it is, I have bench multimeters that are better than my hand-helds). But as bench space is always at a premium, I'm just as likely to use a cheap Aneng AN8002 or the 9999-count AN8008 these days For many situations, one of each of the Aneng models plus a £40 Fluke 101 (for when safety is important) might be all we need. If logging is a definite requirement, then the 22,000-count UT61E looks interesting at the price, especially if it's for low-energy bench work. I must get around to picking one up...

In short, a collection of smaller, cheaper meters might be better than one expensive meter. Especially as it's common to need to measure 2 or 3 different things at the same time. At least, I often felt that way after blowing all that cash on the 189 back then. But then, it is nice to have an occasional treat

The Aneng is certainly very tempting for very little money. I already do have a couple of other meters which are an Avo 8 mk6, Maplin Precision Gold (main workhorse) and Fluke 179 (when I need two meters or more precision). The latter was BNIB, but cost a third less than retail price. Seemed to be a one off listing, possibly NOS. I purchased a HP3478A which was very nice, but I didn't realise how big it was even for a bench meter, and it just took up too much space (was too deep) in my tiny work area so I have now sold it in favour of something more compact. I'm not expecting the replacement to be as precise, but it is meant to be a treat!

Welectron  in Germany is my choice these days.. Give them a call see what they'll say. But calibration can be performed by any decent lab, nothing special about it.

Thanks. I will make some enquiries with them.

[Fungus]

Im considering the purchase of a good calibre DMM. Its primarily for hobby use, but also the occasional repair. I thought I would get myself one high spec meter as a retirement present. My budget is around 220GBP and for a little over that I can get a brand new Brymen 297s BM869s with 500000 count in high res mode, or a used Fluke 287 with 50000 count. Both have logging functions but the Fluke cable and software costs as much as a used meter but one can DIY one for the Brymen and use sigrok. Obviously the high res mode of the BM297s BM869s is overkill for hobby use. Fluke has the brand reputation, but the Brymen has better specs. I can't make my mind up!

It's a retirement present. Take the price out of the equation.

[WaveyDipole]

Well that's one way of looking at it!

In the meantime I have now sent an e-mail to Uni-T about the EMC standard (or rather lack of) of their UT181B meter. On their contact page they boast 'Fast reposnse and immediate action'. It will be interesting to see how fast their response and how immediate any action is, although I'm not holding my breath!

[switcher]

The Fluke 287/289 are very big, more breezeblock, than brick. When they first came out, the RS rep visited my then employer, to peddle his many wares as usual; and brought one for the engineers to have a play with. Agreement was universal; a very capable meter, just too big; preference for the Fluke 89/189 was universal.

I wouldn't buy Bryman or UniT tat; I'd buy a decent 2nd-hand 89/189, and go out for a slap-up meal with the rest !

Well ! You did ask for opinions !

[Electro Detective]

FYI, BOTH Fluke 289 and 189 have the same supercapacitor issue   

I've cleaned these supercRapacitors up with IPA and check the board every few months

AFAICT they may leak and or or grow a brown beard or just go flat/short, just the one time   

The meters still work perfect regardless, and the AA batteries do what the crummy internal stupidcapacitor should be doing,
keeping the current real world clock settings for logging etc during the brief period when changing the AA batteries
otherwise you just set the clock every time you change batteries, no big deal

It boggles the senses they did this same blunder TWICE on their flagship meter over a 15 (?) year span. 

I suspect the 789 process meter may have the same issue too, and that's by no means a cheap DMM

I will eventually remove these supercraps and put in something reliable and long term  (ANY SUGGESTIONS ANYONE?)
although FLUKE should be doing that SERVICE for me proof of purchase or not
in light of my ongoing support and partial recommendation for their very pricey wares 


Then again.. if Fluke needs weeks/months to solder in one component, and replace it with the same problematic one  NO THANKS, 

I'll roll with DIY and they can keep their Warranty and 'reputation driven company'  BS for their fresh green customers   

[joeqsmith]

Well that's one way of looking at it!

In the meantime I have now sent an e-mail to Uni-T about the EMC standard (or rather lack of) of their UT181B meter. On their contact page they boast 'Fast reposnse and immediate action'. It will be interesting to see how fast their response and how immediate any action is, although I'm not holding my breath!

Dave may have the 121GW available before we see a UT181B or an improved version of the Gossen Ultra. 

If you are interested in looking at other meters, you may want to look at what HIOKI has to offer.  I ran three low end meters from Fluke, HIOKI and Keysight.   The Keysight with it's fancy GDTs was damaged but both the Fluke and HIOKI survived.  The HIOKI I have is very well made.  Like Fluke, the price is going to be higher.  I use their higher end products for work and will say they make some top quality equipment. 

I was not at all impressed with Gossen's service and even less impressed with the meter I bought from them.  Still, I will say that electrically the meter is one of the most robust I have looked at.  Right there with the best of the best.  I would not recommend the Ultra in it's current condition but  It would not hurt to see if they have something you like.   

BTW, congratulations on being able to retire!! 

[Dubbie]

...For daily use I almost always reach for the Brymen. The batteries last longer and it turns on much faster.

Interesting observation. Why do you usually reach for the Brymen?

Because:

#The Brymen starts up instantly.
#It doesn't require soft menus for something simple like a continuity test - on the Fluke, this really ruins my flow.
#I'm not constantly worried that I am running down the battery by leaving it switched on.

Apart from those things, both meters are very nice.

The logging on the Fluke is really great and I like using it when I can't be bothered setting up the computer to do it or if I am away from the bench.

R

[WaveyDipole]

I take the point that the Fluke 289 is large, but I can't find the 189 or 189 II available in the UK at all. In fact at least one outlet listed it as obsolete? It does still seem to be available in the United States though, but hefty shipping charges would then need to be factored in. Regarding the 87v, there seem to be plenty of them around, but from what I can tell, do these have just the one display? Other than that, all these meters seem to be 50,000 count meters with almost the same specs.

I'm also a little confused about the logging software. I know that the cable is available either with the meter as a kit or for 59GBP when purchased seperately. What I can't find info on is whether the software ios a chargeable extra, or can it be downloaded? Except for an upgrade, I couldn't find a download which suggests that one has to have a licence already. The software + IR cable sells for around 200GBP which also suggests that the software has to be purchased extra. Perhaps someone could clarify please? Aslo, if I had the IR cable could I use sigrok instead? It does appear to be a supported device.

[IanB]

I take the point that the Fluke 289 is large, but I can't find the 189 or 189 II available in the UK at all. In fact at least one outlet listed it as obsolete? It does still seem to be available in the United States though, but hefty shipping charges would then need to be factored in.

The Fluke 189 is long out of production. It is only available used and second hand, unless you happen somehow to stumble across some new old stock. You can find them on eBay for quite unreasonably high prices, even when in heavily used, scratched and dirty condition.

If you go to any listing advertising the 189 as new, you will find that it shows "unavailable" or "obsolete" on the product page.

[Mark Hennessy]

I take the point that the Fluke 289 is large, but I can't find the 189 or 189 II available in the UK at all. In fact at least one outlet listed it as obsolete? It does still seem to be available in the United States though, but hefty shipping charges would then need to be factored in. Regarding the 87v, there seem to be plenty of them around, but from what I can tell, do these have just the one display? Other than that, all these meters seem to be 50,000 count meters with almost the same specs.

The 87V is only 6000-count. It has a 12,000 20,000-count mode, but you have to manually select that. Yes, single display only.

The 287/9 replaced the 187/9. Both 50,000-count and better accuracy and functionality compared to the 87V. But the 87V is good enough most of the time, and has the advantage of much, much longer battery life compared to the 187/9 and 287/9 models. The 87V - being an industrial meter - has the annoyance of the current ranges defaulting to AC, requiring a press of a button to put them to DC. That still catches me out occasionally, despite having used the 87V for 5+ years!

I'm also a little confused about the logging software. I know that the cable is available either with the meter as a kit or for 59GBP when purchased seperately. What I can't find info on is whether the software ios a chargeable extra, or can it be downloaded? Except for an upgrade, I couldn't find a download which suggests that one has to have a licence already. The software + IR cable sells for around 200GBP which also suggests that the software has to be purchased extra. Perhaps someone could clarify please?

Yes, you need to buy the £200 package. I assume that the option of just the lead is for those who have already purchased the software but need a replacement lead, or for those who need a different lead for another multimeter (e.g. a bench multimeter). It is possible to buy just the software only - presumably for those willing to make up a serial lead for the bench multimeters.

[evava]

Also, in regard to Fluke 289, be sure to read manual very thoroughly, so to not be disappointed later, as I was.
Do not be fooled by 50000 count -
- typically on some ranges, the error in a reading removes one or two of the least significant digits.

And, the display is worst of all my other DMMs, because of this is unpleasant and uncomfortable to use this meter often.
For me mainly trend chart is reason to own one.

[alm]

- typically on some ranges, the error in a reading removes one or two of the least significant digits.

If you are talking absolute accuracy, sure. The meter will not measure a 10 V signal accurate to the mV. But this is common to pretty much all meters to some degree, whether they are 3000 count or 2000000 count. The extra digits still provide resolution, that in many cases is more important than accuracy. It allows you to measure small drops in voltages. To find two 10 kOhm resistors that have the same value down to the 1 Ohm. You will not be able to tell that the value is exactly 10.000 Ohm, but you can tell that the difference is less than 1 Ohm.

[Electro Detective]

Surely the Brymen BM869s has a few things that disappoint, or does not quite match the spec sheet... 

 

[PA4TIM]

I have a Agilent U1252A for more then 6 years and used it every day in my lab. I do not think it is mechanical as good as a Fluke (my Fluke 77-3 is still good and in spec after years of automotive abuse) My Agilent had a broken common bananabus, the tilt-stand does not work anymore, all 4 probes got sticky and disintegrated. But it is still within specs with almost no drift (I know because it came standard with a detailed calibration rapport so I know the start values )
About spot on, many people think there meter is still spot on, only a few know so do not overvalue that point . And what about tempco. rH% etc, Does it matter for you if the meter reads 3,9995 instead of 4V ? There is also linearity, my Keithley 2000 is ultra linear. The Brymen and Agilent are good but not even close to the 2000 . Spot-on at 5V is great but is it also spot-on at 1 or 3V, many meters are not

Bought a Brymen BM869s about 2 months ago. I calibrated it the same day for future reference. It was well within specs. I do not know how it will behave over time. But I can calibrate myself and the dealer told me it can be done by the user himself.  I now use the Brymen  more as the Agilent. The bigger display is great but the thing I like most is that it remembers the last used settings.  The continuity beeper is ultra fast. I do a lot of reverse engineering so that is very important for me.

Look what is important for you. Nice if a meter can make graphs but not important if you never need or use that function, on the other hand if you need it, do not buy a meter without that function. Same goes for all functions. And look up the specs for that function. For instance TRMS is nice but rather useless if it has a 5% accuracy, a 100Hz bandwidth and a crest factor of 2.

[Gandalf_Sr]

The Agilent U1252B that I linked on eBay a few posts back is still my recommendation.  Go to www.keysight.com and search for it and you'll find that it's still sold for $400 new with the only difference being that it's now branded "Keysight" rather than "Agilent", I paid $200 for mine and paid another $13 for a new battery that I really didn't need.  If you pay with PayPal, you are covered if you get a dud or it gets damaged in shipping.  I believe it meets all your requirements and is 0.03% basic accuracy on most ranges.

[WaveyDipole]

Could someone please help me understand one aspect of the spec sheet please?

When it says 1%+n, what does the number +n mean?
I understand that this refers to %reading + offset, but what does the 'offset' refer to?

BTW, there was a 289 on eBay for 270GBP, described as little used and with a Make Offer option. I was very tempted, but no matter how much I tried to persuade myself to put an offer on it, I just couldn't get over that poor screen contrast and the supercap issue. That's before even considering the slow graphing and menu system. I'm begining to think that the Fluke 289/287/189 is NOT the way to go for hobbyist use so i am now considering the 'best of the rest'.

[Jon.C]

I love the U1252B but ... only has a defect , the continuity test is very bad

I'm waiting for a new U1273A, bought on ebay for 256 €

The screen refresh rate is impressive (very important for me )  and the continuity test works much better

Although they are 30,000 counts against 50,000

[alm]

When it says 1%+n, what does the number +n mean?

The number of least significant digits that it may be off. If the accuracy is 1% + 6 digits, and the meter displays 1.000 V, then it could be 1% * 1V + 0.006 V off.

Dave explains it in this old video:

[WaveyDipole]

Thanks for pointing out that video alm.
I did a bit of googleing but did not find an satisfactory explanation. That is nice and clear.

BTW, is there much difference between the Agilent 1252A and the 1252B other than the colour? Did they fix the continuity issue mentioned in Dave's video?

[Lightages]

Yes the BM869S has a couple of things that might disappoint, but it meets its specs. Why you insist it must not, I have no idea why.

Its continuity is not latched, the hold function is manual, and its battery life is lower than some might like. Maybe there are some other things people might not like.

Edit: typos corrected

[R005T3r]

I'd go for the 287. The datalogging capability is useful, especially if you don't have any other instrument that act as a recorder...

[colorado.rob]

The Agilent U1252B that I linked on eBay a few posts back is still my recommendation.  Go to www.keysight.com and search for it and you'll find that it's still sold for $400 new with the only difference being that it's now branded "Keysight" rather than "Agilent", I paid $200 for mine and paid another $13 for a new battery that I really didn't need.  If you pay with PayPal, you are covered if you get a dud or it gets damaged in shipping.  I believe it meets all your requirements and is 0.03% basic accuracy on most ranges.

I have a U1252A and U1252B and I have to say that if either of these went bad at some point I'd pick up another U1252B in a heartbeat.  The continuity sensitivity that someone complained about is adjustable and meets my needs.  And when it doesn't, my Extech EX-330 meter can do that job just fine.  The battery lasts long enough on my bench even for longer logging sessions.  And having it rechargeable means that it is always ready to go.  One of it's nicest features is the tilt stand.  It keeps the meter very stable on the bench.

[WaveyDipole]

Anyone know whether kesight/Agilent have fixed the EMC issue?



I was getting to the point of putting a bid one one when I came upon this video from Dave. I found another video where a guy had the same problem with the U1252 as well.

EDIT: It seems there is a follow up video where it has been fixed:



So what's the deal on buying a used one? Will Keysight still repair/replace it?