Brymen ... Fluke ... (Why pay extra?)

[Robomeds]

Does Fluke actually claim their meters will survive the CAT tests?  I thought they only claimed the meter would survive the full rated voltage input in all settings (except for blowing fuses of course).  Thus a CAT III 1000V meter can have 1000V applied to the inputs in any range but at 1001V they only claim it will not cause harm.  At least that was what I took away from MJL's video visit to Fluke

[saturation]

Yep, Fluke states it will survive the rated impulse test and others in their environmental suite.

http://en-us.fluke.com/community/fluke-news-plus/electronic-news/fluke-lab-tortures-test-tools-so-technicians-feel-no-pain.html

Does Fluke actually claim their meters will survive the CAT tests?  I thought they only claimed the meter would survive the full rated voltage input in all settings (except for blowing fuses of course).  Thus a CAT III 1000V meter can have 1000V applied to the inputs in any range but at 1001V they only claim it will not cause harm.  At least that was what I took away from MJL's video visit to Fluke

[Fungus]

Yep, Fluke states it will survive the rated impulse test and others in their environmental suite.

http://en-us.fluke.com/community/fluke-news-plus/electronic-news/fluke-lab-tortures-test-tools-so-technicians-feel-no-pain.html

"Fluke multimeters are subjected to repeated jolts of high voltage to prove they can withstand voltage spikes from lightning or other causes without damage to the product or harm to their users."

Again we see Fluke going beyond the standard's requirements.

[fanOfeeDIY]

I found the links about Hioki's CE marks.

The pdf to the details of which EN regulations that Hioki is confirming for the CE marks.
http://www.hioki.com/filedownload/DT4281A999_03.pdf?t=conformity&iid=1_382

The pdf explaining to the end users about how Hioki's multimeters confirming to CE marks.
(unfortunately only in Japanese)
https://www.hioki.co.jp/products/file.php?t=catalog&iid=1_802

If I were CEO of the Hioki, I would probably try to be listed on UL/CSA but Hioki is relatively small Japanese company who only has factory in Japan, and probably they may not able to afford the cost for the UL/CSA certification at the moment.

The general reputation of Hioki's multimaters in Japan is less practical than Fluke 87V but seemed to have the fasted CPU for autorange and settle readings among others.

[saturation]

Thanks, good links.  From the google translation, its clear Hioki understands what's needed and the CE mark will allow them to sell this product worldwide.  But, jobs regulated by OSHA in the USA require an NRTL safety mark, so Hioki automatically excludes an entire industry from its DMM sales. 

https://www.hioki.com/corporate/ir.php

Based on the financial statement, they make most of their business in Asia.

The mark is not that expensive long term, even Mastech is finally getting its products safety marked,  in this case by ETL.

http://www.p-mastech.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=249&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29&vmcchk=1&Itemid=29

Confirming the above DMM with Intertek:

http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/4c8700f3b75987a08525777700583333/fff76e50fca54bc186257e99002f11a4?OpenDocument

I found the links about Hioki's CE marks.

If I were CEO of the Hioki, I would probably try to be listed on UL/CSA but Hioki is relatively small Japanese company who only has factory in Japan, and probably they may not able to afford the cost for the UL/CSA certification at the moment.

The general reputation of Hioki's multimaters in Japan is less practical than Fluke 87V but seemed to have the fasted CPU for autorange and settle readings among others.

[Lightages]

That is good to see, another manufacturer taking things more seriously. Perhaps if Mastech is doing this then their quality might improve too.

[KGB]

Many (or all?) Hioki has KC mark.

As "Korea Certification" by KETI (Korea Electric Testing Institute), but it can performed by Intertek as well:
http://www.intertek.com.hk/electronics/kc-mark/

Oh, and this is definitely known:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=PICQ.E201570&ccnshorttitle=Measuring,+Testing+and+Signal-generation+Equipment&objid=1074559392&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073991173&sequence=1

Cheers

[Wytnucls]

Szia, good research job, KGB! 

[saturation]

Yes, unfortunately Korea merged the EMC mark, "KCC" and its safety mark "KC" a few years ago, so its unclear what that mark means.  It usually means EMC when there are no serial numbers beside the mark, but the law is badly written as KETI states if the numbers can't fit the chassis, you can write it on the manual or box.  If your meter has a series of digits beside the KC mark, it could be safety rated.

http://www.kc-mark.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=1

A manufacturer can receive the KC mark if they pass safety or EMC.  In 2012 the KETI revised the rule to require BOTH.

http://www.bizhard.com/pub/weblink.aspx?type=download&guid=OUFFMjBBRDVGMTMyRjAyRkUwNDAwMDdGMDEwMDYxMER8MTEyMjU0ODQ4.pdf

As example, see photo, a proper KC mark, see red B, should include a series of numbers that when decoded, specify what its rated for.  For example, here is a KC mark for a Fluke DMM.

Because the KC mark is unclear, it is not recognized as a safety mark by safety agencies like OSHA in the USA or ESA in Ontario.

That's why in the Fluke DMM above, they include all 3 marks, CE for the EU, CSA for international, red A in photo, and KC for Korea, just to be sure.

That Hioki was willing to get some of its products UL listed as linked below means Hioki's management knew how to certify a product and deliberately released Hioki's newest DMMs line without a clear internationally recognized safety mark.

Note, KC mark being problematic is not alone, the Japanese "PSE",  Russian mark, "EAC", China's CCC are not recognized in North America.   But if you get an ETL mark from Korea or China, it will be valid in the US or Canada, because Intertek provides a clear set of procedures for what that mark entails.

Many (or all?) Hioki has KC mark.

As "Korea Certification" by KETI (Korea Electric Testing Institute), but it can performed by Intertek as well:
http://www.intertek.com.hk/electronics/kc-mark/

Oh, and this is definitely known:
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=PICQ.E201570&ccnshorttitle=Measuring,+Testing+and+Signal-generation+Equipment&objid=1074559392&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073991173&sequence=1

Cheers

[KGB]

Unfortunately, you're right.

A simple KC mark in Korea means about same as the CE mark in Europe:

http://www.intertek.com/consumer/news/v84-kc-standard-mark/

http://www.bureauveritas.com/home/about-us/our-business/cps/resources/q-a/qa-kc-mark

 

[saturation]

Yes, I didn't want to mention the KC mark is to be used on non-electronic products, adds to more confusion.   



The official format will be:



Then with the codes, you can figure out what exactly its certified for.  KETI certification is the only agency I've seen follow the whole law correctly including the options, while the Fluke DMM did not include the actual manufacturer.

In this charger, you see the certifying agency, the serial number and the full name of the manufacturer.

Unfortunately, you're right.

A simple KC mark in Korea means about same as the CE mark in Europe:

http://www.intertek.com/consumer/news/v84-kc-standard-mark/

http://www.bureauveritas.com/home/about-us/our-business/cps/resources/q-a/qa-kc-mark

 

[fanOfeeDIY]

I feel bit sorry for destructing this thread
The initial thread is about Brymen or Fluke.

I should have post the links of Hioki at the some Hioki's thread.

Going back to the title of this thread,

this is only my personal opinion,
picking up the Fluke 87V at the store and switching the rotary knobs
is enough to grasp why the Fluke is "The Standard" of handheld multimeters.

[lacek]

picking up the Fluke 87V at the store and switching the rotary knobs
is enough to grasp why the Fluke is "The Standard" of handheld multimeters.

This contrasts the experience with Brymen?

Anyway 8kV resistance is a nice thing, but I am not seeing myself measuring higher voltages than 230 AC mains (maybe 400 V in case there is a major problem with the energy supply at my home). If Fluke survived 100kV voltages would not rise its usability for me at all.

There are much more aspects that require attention than high power/voltage certification. Say, burden voltage on low current setting.

[P90]

I feel bit sorry for destructing this thread
The initial thread is about Brymen or Fluke.

I should have post the links of Hioki at the some Hioki's thread.

Going back to the title of this thread,

this is only my personal opinion,
picking up the Fluke 87V at the store and switching the rotary knobs
is enough to grasp why the Fluke is "The Standard" of handheld multimeters.

2 years later... try turning the selector on a UEU 396, 397 multimeter...

[rstofer]

More to the point, from my point of view:  Why are the operators in the videos using a DMM to test power circuits?  That's overkill when all you need is a qualitative measure - it's hot or it's not.

So, I prefer a solenoid style tester like the Knopp Wiggy
http://www.knoppinc.com/voltage_tester_comparison.htm

True, it's only CAT III at 600V but that's where I work (before I retired) and when I'm higher than that, I get a reading off a potential transformer.

I like the fact I can feel the Wiggy jump in my hand when it is connected to an energized point.  That's all I need to know.  I don't need decimal places.

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't.  My other meters are 'junk' from a safety perspective except that I only use them at 24V and below.

I agree with everything above re: buy the Fluke, get the ratings but then consider why you are using a DMM in the electrical trade.  Yes, there are applications but routine troubleshooting isn't one of them.  Control systems and VFDs probably are...

In any event, I will never use my 189 on a power circuit.  It cost too much!  That, and I'm retired so I don't do that kind of stuff anymore.

I kind of remember this very conversation back in the early '60s when I wanted to use a V-O-M and my father handed me a Wiggy.  He was right!

BTW, be aware that the Wiggy is very low impedance and this can provoke unintended consequences in machinery - like energizing the relay that launches the missile...

[joeqsmith]

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't. 

What certification do you feel is well enough?

[rstofer]

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't. 

What certification do you feel is well enough?

Well, it claims CAT IV 600V, CAT III 1000V and has both UL and TUV marks and a double insulated symbol.  I suspect it would be just fine in an industrial application at 600V and below.  I haven't read, nor do I have access to, UL Standard 61010-1 to figure out how the meters are actually tested.  I probably wouldn't understand it even if I did have a copy.

Somehow, I think it's good to go.  But I don't have to think about it, I'm retired.  Let somebody else think about it.

[Lightages]

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't.

 

Many Brymens are rated at CATIV 1000V with 3rd party testing certification to back this up. How is this not "certified well enough"? it is the highest rating available.

[ProBang2]

I guess my Fluke 189 is certified well enough but the Brymen isn't.

 

Many Brymens are rated at CATIV 1000V with 3rd party testing certification to back this up. How is this not "certified well enough"? it is the highest rating available.

May be a typo of rstofer...   

Brymen DMMs achieve Cat III 1000V and Cat IV 1000V ratings, UL-listed.   
Fluke DMMs "only" Cat III 1000V and Cat IV 600V ratings, UL-listed.   

[Electro Detective]

My 6.2 

The Brymen may be ok (I wouldn't say no to using it) but the Fluke can get one access into any job site or entertainment venue just by waving it around  (regardless if the meter is not working or no batteries fitted)  and saying "I'm here to fix the rooted air-conditioner (lighting system, the boss's jacuzzi etc) and you better not be THAT GUY that called and interrupted me doing the business on the can saying it was fkn urgent,
and I soon find out it wasn't! 
Where is this fault anyway? Never mind, I can see you're too busy, I'll find it on my own as always, thanks Bud... " 

If you try that same stunt with a Brymen, the security people will laugh at you and say they have the same SCA meter too at home in the garage,
a Christmas present from wifey scored from SuperCheap Auto's sale catalogue   

[P90]

My 6.2 

The Brymen may be ok (I wouldn't say no to using it) but the Fluke can get one access into any job site or entertainment venue just by waving it around  (regardless if the meter is not working or no batteries fitted)  and saying "I'm here to fix the rooted air-conditioner (lighting system, the boss's jacuzzi etc) and you better not be THAT GUY that called and interrupted me doing the business on the can saying it was fkn urgent,
and I soon find out it wasn't! 
Where is this fault anyway? Never mind, I can see you're too busy, I'll find it on my own as always, thanks Bud... " 

If you try that same stunt with a Brymen, the security people will laugh at you and say they have the same SCA meter too at home in the garage,
a Christmas present from wifey scored from SuperCheap Auto's sale catalogue   

put down that crack pipe and step away from the computer...   

[rstofer]

Many Brymens are rated at CATIV 1000V with 3rd party testing certification to back this up. How is this not "certified well enough"? it is the highest rating available.

Well, if we play along with the Fluke video, the fact that MY Brymen BM235 is rated CAT IV 300V, CAT III 600V, CAT II 1000V wouldn't be all that impressive.  It also has the double insulated mark but that comes along with the all-plastic housing.  The fact that there is ONLY a UL mark and no secondary inspection mark (TUV?) doesn't seem to put it in the class with my Fluke 189.  I don't see another 3rd party mark on MY Brymen BM235.

I should have been more specific about WHICH Brymen.  Like every manufacturer, Brymen has a range of offerings.  Even the BM235 may be eligible for the TUV mark but it doesn't have it (on MINE).  Having a UL mark isn't all that impressive, all things considered.  I want a mark that shows the Germans are involved.  They won't let anything slip by!  The CE mark is meaningless and MY BM235 doesn't have one anyway.

A long time back ('78?), I saw the results of an old Simpson 260 applied to a high energy 480V circuit while in a non-voltage mode.  The case literally exploded, embedding plastic in the operator and causing the attending engineer to NEVER work around electrical again.

If the operator had been using the right tool, the accident wouldn't even have been possible.  A Wiggy only measures voltage.  There is no range switch, no resistance ranges, no current ranges, just voltage and even that has no range switching.  More important, you don't have to take your eyes off the probe to see the reading.  When you put a Wiggy on 480V, you KNOW you have voltage.  The thump from the solenoid is all you need to feel.  And it doesn't use a battery.  Alas, it doesn't have a TUV mark...  Probably because it isn't exported.

[noidea]

I guess depending on what you work on your "wiggy" may be sufficient but I'm a HVAC tech and when the things you work on require testing AC at 240-415V, DC from 5- 585V and then resistance testing from ohms to Megohms and diode check function then a decent DMM really is your only option, if you can measure temperature with that device as well then even better.

I have always had Fluke meters but recently decided to give a Brymen 257s a go to replace a Fluke 12 that I had drop calibrated one too many times . so far I would say its a pretty tough meter

I was running a training session for technicians on inverter split system A/C's about a week ago and had been going through some component testing with the techs using diode check function on the BM257s. The next thing was some voltage tests on the main PCB of a unit and I absent mindedly forgot to change the meter from diode check mode and proceeded to put 240VAC onto the diode input of the meter  I saw the screen go blank, said something along the lines of "Oh F%$!" regained my composure and proceeded to explain to my audience that you should always remember to turn your meter off diode check before you turn the power back on  .

After turning the meter off and waiting for a moment it was fine. 

[rstofer]

I guess depending on what you work on your "wiggy" may be sufficient but I'm a HVAC tech and when the things you work on require testing AC at 240-415V, DC from 5- 585V and then resistance testing from ohms to Megohms and diode check function then a decent DMM really is your only option, if you can measure temperature with that device as well then even better.

As I said earlier, there are environments where a DMM is required.  Troubleshooting low voltages, resistance or diode checks are out of the question for a pure voltage tester.  No question, the DMM, or better, the specialized HVAC DMMs are the way to go.

HVAC isn't at all the same as electrical, especially on small systems.  But larger systems, like 1000 ton chillers and hundred HP fans generally fall into the electrical category.  Not much 24VAC involved!  More often than not, the fine controls are pneumatic with the occasional pressure switch to interact with the electrical stuff.  Mostly, the controls are 120VAC and the DMM is again the wrong tool.

[rstofer]

I use my DMMs for electronics, rarely for electrical.  So I went looking around at the Fluke electrical offerings...

I ran across the T-PRO Electrical Tester and I rather like the concept.  I get a fast visual indication of the voltage level and I can read the digital value if I wish.  It has low level visual indications like 12V and 24V as well as the common 120-208-240-277-480V levels.  It also vibrates like a solenoid style tester and has a beeper for voltage detection.  This could be a really handy meter for electricians!

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-T-PRO-Electrical-Tester/dp/B000VRHD4S/ref=pd_sbs_469_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000VRHD4S&pd_rd_r=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0&pd_rd_w=IN8RC&pd_rd_wg=6EpjC&psc=1&refRID=Q4VQDT7K311STA62TBX0

The Amazon ad says it does open jaw current testing but I don't think that is true.  Perhaps there is an accessory.

I may just buy one of these for use around the house.  Clearly, I have other testers but this unit seems like it would be fantastic.

Did I mention is also figures out phase rotation on 3 phase circuits?  Now that's cool considering they do it with just 2 wires.  My trusty Knopp phase rotation meter can finally retire!