Author Topic: Datron 1062 (Read 30932 times)

gilbenl · « **on:** January 28, 2015, 10:47:57 pm »

Picked up this Datron 1062 off ebay to play with. The display looks not long for this world, but the price was cheap enough that it didn't matter. From what I can tell, the difference bw the 1061A and the 1062 is that the latter comes with ohms and AC RMS standard, but no current opt. Its really nice to work with even with an aging display. Unfortunately, a replacement is unobtainable AFAIK. I would be elated to hear it if someone suspects there may be a fix that doesn't require a new display. Pretty nifty inside so I figured I would share some pics. If anyone wants to see more, let me know.

Album: http://s76.photobucket.com/user/nick_gilbert2/slideshow/Datron%201062

lowimpedance · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2015, 11:06:30 pm »

Nice clean unit, lots of nice old IC sockets to give trouble !, but also easy to lift the IC and re seat too.
The display's all seem to be affected in a similar way, perhaps it would be useful to at least check for ripple on the HT anode supply (ie dried out filter cap). Or just replace anyway.

Thanks for the pics.
If you do manage to fix post your solution here for others having similar problems.

Vgkid · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2015, 11:09:17 pm »

The only source for those panaflex displays was ebay.

gilbenl · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2015, 11:38:04 pm »

It could be a cap on the driver board, but I'm never that lucky. I know nothing about gas discharge displays, however, the diminished performance appears to be very uniform. It seems that the rate of degradation would vary if it were a matter of wear, or is that ignorance speaking? I've seen a couple "fail" units with good displays on ebay that don't seem to be moving. If I can get one for a good price, I may just cannibalize out the entire front panel and keep the guts for spare.

The unit is impeccable inside-not one speck of dust. And for the record, EVERY IC is socketed. I tried in vain to find one soldered directly to the board. That and the enclosed H configuration of the boards struck me as rather unique. Its in dire need of calibration so I'll definitely post some pics or video on the process. See how easy this "autocal" business is.

Mr.B · « **Reply #4 on:** January 29, 2015, 12:27:04 am »

I haven't seen one of those in years.
I used to laugh at the way the serial number was repeated all over the inside of the unit.
I wondered if they had allocated the serial numbers before testing the individual assemblies. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that theory.
In my "Push Buttons Box" at home I still have half a dozen of those rectangular push buttons with the red led - brand new, purchased as spares just in case.

EDIT: After a second, closer look, I see the serial numbers are all different. My bad memory - It was more than 25 years ago...

Mr.B · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2015, 11:59:43 pm »

@gilbenl
Photo of buttons attached as per my PM.

dom0 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2015, 12:11:44 am »

I think I know these buttons. They are still available new... made by ITT cannon, I think. http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/SERL%20BK%20RD%207.62%20AU%20OA/401-1113-ND/417769

There are some hints (in German) about the 1061 here: http://www.amplifier.cd/Test_Equipment/other/Datron1061/Datron_1061.html

Regarding that aged VFD: There are some rejuvenation techniques around, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintageclassic-renovation-techniques/msg615992/#msg615992

HiTech · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2015, 04:26:50 pm »

I had 2 Datron 1065A units and are very similar to yours. If yours has the internal battery for calibration memory, do not replace it unless you have external DC power applied across the terminals. So, keep the units plugged into live AC outlet otherwise it uses the battery for memory. Those are very good, near metrology-grade units. They can be calibrated but it's not a simple 1-2-3 process.

gilbenl · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2015, 06:03:40 pm »

Quote from: HiTech on February 25, 2015, 04:26:50 pm

I had 2 Datron 1065A units and are very similar to yours. If yours has the internal battery for calibration memory, do not replace it unless you have external DC power applied across the terminals. So, keep the units plugged into live AC outlet otherwise it uses the battery for memory. Those are very good, near metrology-grade units. They can be calibrated but it's not a simple 1-2-3 process.

I appreciate the links, particularly to the german site. Shortly after starting this thread I purchased a second "broken" 1062 with the intent to harvest the display and keep in handy for spare parts. Seller said it showed "Error 6" on self test, which is a failure of the resistance circuit. Turns out the test was run in 4-wire mode. Turned that off and it passed. Bonus is that is has external input (ratio) and output, which will prove very handy to set up as a differential meter with a known standard. See picture below ("broken" on top of original"

So, now I have 2 functional 1062s (darn). The original still has a wonky display and I'm willing to be a bit more bold with it. I'm still hesitant to crank up the current on the display without having a definite "this works" protocol, namely because I don't know enough to not screw up. However, another resource suggested replacing the power supply caps (as did the german site), claiming that fixes some issues. Any input on this?

As far as the battery goes, I know the unit shown at the top of the thread has a 28 yr old battery in it, which needs replacing. Is the procedure similar to that of a 3478A? Do the same rules regarding grounding applicable? The service manual says to leave it powered up, rather than adding a backup source for the battery alone.

PaulAm · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2015, 07:45:55 pm »

I'd check the 180V supply to the display; it's also possible there might be a problem on the display driver board, it looks like the display is multiplexed. Shouldn't be too hard to track down, it looks like they're a little current starved. I think K04BB has the service manual with schematics.

Someone referred to the display as a VFD; it is not. This is a high voltage gas discharge display (Panaplex). Essentially it's a7 segment nixie array.

Dang, now I want to get a 1071

dom0 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2015, 07:48:57 pm »

Oh, well then, the CRT tricks won't work on a gas discharge display I guess.

In the worst case one has to build a replacement display from e.g. LED displays. Shouldn't be too hard with the schematics, and even worst case (taking multiplexed input from the 180 V? drivers) is something any MCU can do. It'll look like crap, tough.

gilbenl · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2015, 04:20:22 am »

Here's a link to the manual/schematics that I have. Any identifiable places of interest?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z8sgw2ffkddjjgj/Datron_1061_1061a_1062_Service_Manual_complete_with_schematics_and_partlist.pdf?dl=0

lowimpedance · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2015, 04:38:07 am »

So did you check for excessive ripple from the power supplies ??.
Since these displays have pins and usually plug into a socket why don't you try one of the suspect ones in the good unit, that way you will confirm if its actually the display that's faulty.

gilbenl · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2015, 12:50:53 am »

Quote from: lowimpedance on February 26, 2015, 04:38:07 am

So did you check for excessive ripple from the power supplies ??.
Since these displays have pins and usually plug into a socket why don't you try one of the suspect ones in the good unit, that way you will confirm if its actually the display that's faulty.

Truth of the matter is I've been distracted and haven't investigated much, but now that I get a sense that the fix may be a sourceable part...

First good inspection of the bottom:

Same view from the top-Must've dismissed as dust.

Maybe some ripple.

dacman · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2015, 10:07:23 pm »

You have an LS101, which means it has a D50 connector in the back and no ratio function. (It also means that it has option 12 AC and Ohms and no current function due to option 12 ACV taking up both the option 10 ACV slot and the current slot. Option 12 is twice as accurate as option 10.)

The battery does not look like OEM. It looks like a replacement battery that I've used. I'd guess that it would test at 3.6 Vdc (i.e., like new).

In the picture with both DMMs, are they supposed to read the same? If so, is the Front/Rear switch in the Front position?

An IC that is soldered in (other than the CANs) is the RMS IC on the bottom. It's the one the black heat sink is clipped onto. It's on stilts

gilbenl · « **Reply #15 on:** February 28, 2015, 11:48:53 pm »

Quote from: dacman on February 28, 2015, 10:07:23 pm

You have an LS101, which means it has a D50 connector in the back and no ratio function. (It also means that it has option 12 AC and Ohms and no current function due to option 12 ACV taking up both the option 10 ACV slot and the current slot. Option 12 is twice as accurate as option 10.)

The battery does not look like OEM. It looks like a replacement battery that I've used. I'd guess that it would test at 3.6 Vdc (i.e., like new).

In the picture with both DMMs, are they supposed to read the same? If so, is the Front/Rear switch in the Front position?

An IC that is soldered in (other than the CANs) is the RMS IC on the bottom. It's the one the black heat sink is clipped onto. It's on stilts

Thanks for the info-Work with these units or just hear this info along the way? The top and bottom are not supposed to read the same-I took the picture while testing a HP6920B Meter Calibrator that I just restored. The top is measuring the output, bottom is measuring the reference zener. The battery was replaced 4/28/95 per the sticker on the back and does read 3.6V. Now that I have it open, I'll probably replace it anyway. While I have in unplugged, is there any reason why I can't stick 3.6V across the terminals (with the battery still connected)?

Disassembled the back panel today and removed the LM309K at the epicenter of the mess. The craftsmanship on this thing is remarkable. Once the screws were out of the regulator, the leads just about about fell off.

And the culprit:

I recently fixed an electronic load and couldn't help using this as an excuse to give it a shot. The Fluke and no-name on the bottom show input current and voltage, respectively. The 3478A and 1062 show ouput current and voltage, respectively. Input was ~14.2V from the E3610. As suspected, the best it could muster while maintaining 5V was about .55-.6A. Beyond that, the output went erratic. Max output current was about 1.2A. Ordered a new one today at $37+sh and paid $10 for the spec'd wire. I'm optimistic that this will leave me with 2 sweet DMMs.

dr.diesel · « **Reply #16 on:** March 01, 2015, 12:01:59 am »

That is a beautiful display, very nice unit my friend.

dacman · « **Reply #17 on:** March 01, 2015, 02:03:12 am »

I've worked on 1062s for many years. It seems that acid flux was used to solder in the LM309K (on them all) and it was not cleaned off.

On your other (working) unit, check the 10uF/350V (if OEM) capacitor on the back panel. I've replaced that cap in maybe 90% of the units I've worked on. The display can look fine even if this cap is shot.

Also on your other unit, check the six blue (if OEM) electrolytic capacitors up front on the DCV board. I've replaced some or all of them in possibly every unit I've ever tested them in.

For the battery, I've replaced a few, and there is a recommendation to replace them every five years, but I don't remember actually testing a bad one (in the 1062), even if it looks OEM. It seems that the (CMOS) circuit draws so little current (Nano Amps), that it's the shelf life of the battery that matters most.

If you try to power the battery circuit, I'd use a current limiting (and isolation) resistor. The circuit draws Nano-Amps. I personally would not worry about it. I sometimes clear and reprogram the constants anyway.

dom0 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 01, 2015, 08:44:20 am »

Those batteries can live for quite some time. I put "replace RAM battery in 3478A" on my todo lists months ago only to find that is still measures 3.0 V (it's a 3 V cell, not a 3.6 V one), after 28 years. If it doesn't leak and measures fine I'd not bother with replacing it.

gilbenl · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2015, 05:37:08 pm »

Quote from: dacman on March 01, 2015, 02:03:12 am

I've worked on 1062s for many years. It seems that acid flux was used to solder in the LM309K (on them all) and it was not cleaned off.

On your other (working) unit, check the 10uF/350V (if OEM) capacitor on the back panel. I've replaced that cap in maybe 90% of the units I've worked on. The display can look fine even if this cap is shot.

Also on your other unit, check the six blue (if OEM) electrolytic capacitors up front on the DCV board. I've replaced some or all of them in possibly every unit I've ever tested them in.

For the battery, I've replaced a few, and there is a recommendation to replace them every five years, but I don't remember actually testing a bad one (in the 1062), even if it looks OEM. It seems that the (CMOS) circuit draws so little current (Nano Amps), that it's the shelf life of the battery that matters most.

If you try to power the battery circuit, I'd use a current limiting (and isolation) resistor. The circuit draws Nano-Amps. I personally would not worry about it. I sometimes clear and reprogram the constants anyway.

I suppose I'll leave the battery alone for now. They do read 3.6V, although I understand that the voltage output is virtually irrelevant until just before EOL. While I wait for the 309, I'll do some cap testing with the signal gen. Really need to build or buy an ESR meter...

If anybody is interested, I attached a link to this project's album on the first post. A few more high-res images along with those already in the thread.

@dacman-Do you have any experience with interfacing the 1062 with GPIB? Does it play well with agilent-compatible solutions? There are some arduino based GPIB-USB adapters that should give me the output of my 3478 and it would be nice if the same would work with my 1062s. Also, do you know the name/style of the external input socket?

lowimpedance · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2015, 12:00:54 am »

Nice equipment stack there, like the two 'stacked' handhelds

.
Heh that regulator was just hanging on there.

Doing a refurb on a 4920 with 'tired electro's' at work so these old timers usually require a recap.

dacman · « **Reply #21 on:** March 03, 2015, 02:11:53 am »

I use the 1062 with NI cards. I know of no IEEE issues. It seems to work just fine.

The rear input on the 1062 LS series uses a DDM-50P connector. A DDM-50S would mate to it. The pins and sockets of these connectors have a gold finish and they are rated at 1000 VAC or more, depending on the manufacturer. (A generic D-SUB 50 connector would fit but I wouldn't recommend one.)

The round connectors were made by Pye Connectors in the UK. They seem to no longer exist.

gilbenl · « **Reply #22 on:** March 03, 2015, 10:14:07 pm »

Much appreciated Dacman.

I figured those round connectors were unobtanium-I'll likely just swap those out for a current Ampehnol or Neutrik connector.

When I asked about the rear inputs, I was referring to the round connectors that my OTHER 1062 (non LS101) has. It wasn't until you mentioned the 50 pin that I realized the LS101 lacks the round, but has the 50 pin. Nevertheless, the manual appears to indicate that rear inputs of any type have a max rating of 250V (see attached). Could you confirm?

dom0 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 03, 2015, 10:23:45 pm »

Seems like a pure connector limit to me (D-sub pin spacing is too narrow for more than 350 Vpk)...

artag · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2015, 12:33:33 am »

I think the connectors are Pye M7P or M10P (plugs), M7S or M10S (sockets). I have one or two around, and they were mentioned on here somewhere recently too.

I have a 1051 with a matching scanner, and I think another 1051 for parts. That also has a panatron display but I don't know if it has enough digits. Shorter displays were common in pinball machines and a few spares are around, but they've often been replaced with LED displays that replace the driver board the panatron is mounted on - e.g http://www.pinballcenter.eu/catalog/pinscore-pinball-led-display-for-williams-system-p-2149.html?language=english


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Author Topic: Datron 1062 (Read 30932 times)

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