Author Topic: Decisions decisions what would you decide...  (Read 3428 times)

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Offline alank2

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Decisions decisions what would you decide...
« on: December 02, 2013, 02:16:22 am »
I've got a DS2072 that I love, but I sold two scopes and only bought the DS2072 so I am down to one scope now.  I do miss having two scopes, one for each of the two locations where I usually mess around without having to haul the scope back and forth.

The thing is that I'd love a 4 channel scope (and I love Rigol's), but my trial of the DS1074Z was disappointing so it is going back.

I have a couple of choices - I am thinking of picking up a second DS2072, a second DS2072 + LogicPort, or a DS4014.  The DS4014 is a bit pricy and the noise of the fan will mean that it won't be the scope I primarily use unless I need 4 channels.  With the second DS2072, I could build a small shelf and stack them when needed to get 4 channels, not a true 4 synchronized channels because of the jitter, but 4 quality channels never the less.

Here is what I've come up with for a comparison of features I consider beneficial, the LogicPort isn't thrown in on this, but honestly it may be a diamond in the rough as far as the capability it gives me vs. what I already have so that is why a second DS2072+LogicPort might be a sweet plan.

What will either scope do for me:

  +   A scope in both locations I typically do work.
  +   Redundancy in case one scope breaks.

What will the second DS2072 do for me:

  +-   4 channels between both scopes, but NOT synchronized together and I'd have to build a shelf to stack the scopes.
  +   Give me the possibility to use one for spare parts when they are out of warranty.

What will the DS4014 do for me: ($938 more overall cost than a second DS2072, and still $631 more overall cost than a second DS2072 AND a LogicPort).  These costs include tax savings I will realize.

  +   A true 4 channel scope, with 6 channels between both scopes.
  +   4 GSa/s sample rate capability.
  +   Official 100 MHz scope that can be unlocked to 500 MHz.
  +   Switchable 50 ohm inputs on all channels.
  +   140M of sample memory.
  +   110K wfrm/s.
  +   Comes with four 500 MHz RP3500 probes (each one retail is $200, could these be sold to offset some of the ds4014 cost?)
  +   Larger 9" display.
  +   Clock reference input and output.
  +   Cover would be so nice for its location near my soldering station.
  +   CAN and FlexRay decoding.
  -   Fan is pretty loud; when out of warranty I could replace it with a quieter one.

I'm leaning towards a second DS2072 and LogicPort.  Should I grieve not getting a DS4014 too badly or should I bite the bullet!!!
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Decisions decisions what would you decide...
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2013, 03:34:54 am »
All good choices.  Just playing back your comments and thinking to help you make your decision...

You would like to have scopes in two locations to avoid moving a scope back and forth.  You already have a 2072 and like it ("love it").  You just want more channels (ideally 4 analog that are synchronized) but also you would apparently like more digital/logic channels.  So the 2nd 2072 with the LogicPort is definitely a good idea as it covers the two work locations and the additional channels (and provides redundancy) - it just doesn't quite cover the 4 synchronized channel bases (believe me, I recognize the dilemma.)

My guess is that if you get DS4014 you will love it (should be almost identical to the 2072 but with 4 synchronized analog channels) BUT you will miss having two scopes AND you will still keep wondering about LAs - which will either lead you back to the LogicPort, or it will start you thinking about a MSO (such as a Rigol MSO4014), at which point you will start to wonder why Rigol didn't (doesn't yet) provide an upgrade path from the DSO to the MSO (kind of like Agilent).

So, I think your best bet might be to go with the 2nd 2072 and the LogicPort.  (If you had a seriously driving need for 4 analog channels on one scope I think it might have been more apparent when you tried the DS1074Z).  If the LogicPort doesn't trip your trigger (haha), I think it could be pretty easily sold (they come up on eBay rarely and go pretty quickly); you could probably recover half or more of the new price.  A used 2072 would probably also find a good home.

Assuming the 2nd 2072 and LogicPort are a good solution they will probably cover you for at least 2-3 years (and maybe much longer).  When the next generation of DSOs or MSOs are introduced (with still better price/performance) you could replace one of the 2072s with a 4 channel DSO or MSO - if you are still searching for a 4 channel scope at that point.

- One other idea (maybe the best idea):  the wild card and the least expensive of all your ideas is the LogicPort.  You could buy one of those before doing anything with the scope(s) and see how you enjoy it.  If it is great, you could then make the decision on the scope and probably add the 2nd 2072; if the LogicPort doesn't do it for you then you might (will probably) go in the direction of the 4014.  I think in your case the easy/best/least expensive first step is to try a LogicPort.

Or just go for the 4014 - you really don't have any bad choices.

Just curious, what was it that you found disappointing in the DS1074Z (or that you preferred in the DS2072)?

EF
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:47:58 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline RRobot

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Re: Decisions decisions what would you decide...
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2013, 03:43:57 am »
If it were me I'd get the 4 channel scope. I don't see me saying, oh I need 3 or 4 channels to diagnose this problem, lets drag out another 2 channel scope and I can puzzle out the trigger delay between them and try to synchronize the windows and cursors when I want to scroll into memory.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:45:33 am by RRobot »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Decisions decisions what would you decide...
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2013, 06:20:58 am »
Quote
What will the DS4014 do for me: ($938 more overall cost than a second DS2072, and still $631 more overall cost than a second DS2072 AND a LogicPort).  These costs include tax savings I will realize.

  +   A true 4 channel scope, with 6 channels between both scopes.
  +   4 GSa/s sample rate capability.
  +   Official 100 MHz scope that can be unlocked to 500 MHz.
  +   Switchable 50 ohm inputs on all channels.
  +   140M of sample memory.
  +   110K wfrm/s.
  +   Comes with four 500 MHz RP3500 probes (each one retail is $200, could these be sold to offset some of the ds4014 cost?)
  +   Larger 9" display.
  +   Clock reference input and output.
  +   Cover would be so nice for its location near my soldering station.
  +   CAN and FlexRay decoding.
  -   Fan is pretty loud; when out of warranty I could replace it with a quieter one.

I'm leaning towards a second DS2072 and LogicPort.  Should I grieve not getting a DS4014 too badly or should I bite the bullet!!!

Or wait till Dave does his review on the soon to be released Siglent SDS2000 series.  :box:
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Decisions decisions what would you decide...
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2013, 06:30:41 am »
@alank2: I'm interested to hear what you think is bad about the DS1074Z. I'm thinking about buying a 4 channel second hand scope or a DS1074Z.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Decisions decisions what would you decide...
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2013, 07:18:52 am »
Thanks for the lengthy and well thought out replies guys - I really do appreciate your input.

I *really wanted* to love the DS1074Z - it offers so much for so the little.  I tried it and packed it up, then I got it out again for more testing and packed it up again.  I don't want to bad mouth it for people who love it - I do think it is a good value for the $$$ especially in time once the firmware becomes more solid.  For me it just is so disappointing next to the DS2072.  I truly "love" the DS2072.  If I were someone seriously debating between the DS1074Z and the DS2072, unless they absolutely needed the 4 channels, I would strongly recommend the DS2072.

My complaints about the DS1074Z are:

The counter feature doesn't work properly.  If you are triggering in the middle of a signal, it counts right, but if you move the trigger up towards the top or bottom 10-20% of the signal (depending on speed), the counter begins to go down significantly.  It seems more pronounced with sine waves, and more pronounced when they are faster.  The trigger is not getting jittery, the waveform will stay solid and stable, but the counter will start dropping the closer to the edge of the wave you get.

The counter doesn't get saved.  You can't turn it on and save your configuration and then load that configuration.  It will turn off the feature.  I wonder what other settings do not save and load.  When saving it doesn't have the ten files already there to just quickly pick.

The UI (and I know this is being picky) is not at all clean and crisp like the DS2000/DS4000 scopes.  There are tons of goofy messages displayed one after another so quickly you can possibly read them.  "keyboard locked! --> blah blah blah --> blah blah blah --> keyboard unlocked! --> can operate now!" all done within 500 ms it feels like.  I don't see the point of displaying these messages in the first place, and to display them so quickly that they can't be read makes even less sense.  The buttons have text that is oversized and runs into the side of the buttons.  Then there are the sideways labels for the menu that are so small that they are too small.  The little dots on the right and left of the menus waste an entire column of space when the way they handled it on the DS2 series does not.  Little things like even the escape arrow button looks goofy with a circle at the end of it.

You can't hide the menus which is a major disappointment compared to the DS2/DS4 series.  This is such a big deal I think they should add it to the existing firmware even though there is no menu button on the right side.  They can just use the up arrow going once too far to hide the menu for example.

The sin(x)/x feature changes the size of the waveform.  The actual height of it on the screen and the peak to peak measurement as well.

It also has the trigger output jitter that the DS2 suffers from.

The menus are not very clear at some places.  You press OK to clear the flash and it appears to do nothing - but I think it is actually doing it.  This is sort of the opposite of too many messages, but not enough in some areas.

Adjusting a signal up and down can be downright impossible to get it where you want.  For example, if I am trying to adjust the vertical position of a channel to -2V, I can get to -1.940V, -1.960V, but the next step will jump to -2.040V.  Try to work it back to -2V and it jumps over it again.  Repeating does the same thing.  Can't get to -2V.  This seems to have to do with how it scales when you adjust the knob.

Responsiveness is an issue, not waveform speed, but you can tell when making adjustments sometimes that certain aspects of the running stop and restart.

The controls are not as nice.  Scale and position knobs on the DS2 are solid and strong, but the DS1Z ones feel loose and wobbly.  To me it feels solid when you pick it up, but build quality on the buttons and controls on the front are not on the same level.

Even the BNC connectors seemed odd with a outside barrel that wasn't smooth from tip to scope face.  There is a line around it that I'm guessing changes the diameter in the middle.  Maybe there is a good reason for this, but I don't know what it is.

The probes tested good with the rise time test I was doing (as good as my trusty 300MHz RP1300's), but the hook on them didn't seem very nice.

The counter not being right issue and the sin(x)/x changing the wave height issue were both measurement issues that were the final straw for me returning it, but the front controls quality and the UI didn't win me either.  If I didn't already have the DS2072 to compare it to, I'd probably think more favorably of it.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 03:19:16 pm by alank2 »
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Decisions decisions what would you decide...
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2013, 07:33:52 am »
or it will start you thinking about a MSO (such as a Rigol MSO4014), at which point you will start to wonder why Rigol didn't (doesn't yet) provide an upgrade path from the DSO to the MSO (kind of like Agilent).

The DS4014 is already at the very extreme end of $$$ for me, so I can't even consider the MSO although I see the benefit.

Assuming the 2nd 2072 and LogicPort are a good solution they will probably cover you for at least 2-3 years (and maybe much longer).  When the next generation of DSOs or MSOs are introduced (with still better price/performance) you could replace one of the 2072s with a 4 channel DSO or MSO - if you are still searching for a 4 channel scope at that point.

That is a good point.

The truth is that the LogicPort would cover a gap for me, more so than the scopes although I really do want two scopes.  My one big issue with the LogicPort is the buffer size which there have been numerous threads covering the pros and cons on.  I really love the LogicPort software from what I've seen, but the buffer size, and also that you can't trigger on anything that is software based interpreted holds me back.  Still it is a great deal of functionality in a compact unit.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Decisions decisions what would you decide...
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2013, 12:09:23 pm »
I'd really love it if Rigol would come out with a DS2074, now that would be so awesome.
 


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