Author Topic: Digital multimeters sucks  (Read 14010 times)

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Offline 001Topic starter

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Digital multimeters sucks
« on: April 08, 2019, 03:31:23 pm »
Digital multimeters sucks
This is no more then crap toys

I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 03:35:22 pm »
Thanks for sharing.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2019, 03:35:45 pm »
Digital multimeters sucks
This is no more then crap toys

I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse

That is difficult to distinguish from a (poor) troll. Not good.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline Yansi

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2019, 03:35:53 pm »
Thanks for SPAMming.
 

Offline jasonbrent

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2019, 03:38:08 pm »
OP, did you try to install the firmware update? It should fix the issue you are having.

 
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Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2019, 03:46:50 pm »
Different tools serve different purposes and understanding how a tool (DMM) works by reading the manual may help. If you can stand dead batteries on ohms, loading of circuits on volts, and low accuracy, an analog meter may serve your limited needs. 
 

Offline Cnoob

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2019, 03:54:30 pm »
Sounds like someone has thrown their a rattle out the pram or should I say DMM.

Can an analogue  meter survive a metre drop?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 03:59:13 pm by Cnoob »
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2019, 04:27:54 pm »
Digital multimeters sucks
This is no more then crap toys
...

Turbos suck even more.  Nothing but crap ICE use'em.  3-phase induction motors FTW!
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2019, 05:00:06 pm »
Obviously the OP never uses the resistance ranges then, so a simple battery tester might suffice [emoji23]
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Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2019, 05:16:12 pm »
I love retro-electronics, which also means analog multimeters. I recently purchased one in Tokyo's Akihabara district.

But other than to use them to null or calibrate a circuit which uses trimpots, really a DMM is a far superior tool.

True, their batteries go flat, but they last a looooong time. And most DMMs have an auto-shutoff feature anyways.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2019, 05:36:39 pm »
I love retro-electronics, which also means analog multimeters. I recently purchased one in Tokyo's Akihabara district.

But other than to use them to null or calibrate a circuit which uses trimpots, really a DMM is a far superior tool.

True, their batteries go flat, but they last a looooong time. And most DMMs have an auto-shutoff feature anyways.
The batteries on an analogue meter for the resistance ranges will also go flat in time so where's the difference between an analogue or a DMM in that respect?
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 05:53:23 pm »
Let me guess: you blew one of your DMM puppies with your HV power supplies? Or the mention of batteries indicate you had a major leakage problem?

I hope it wasn't either the 87V or the 117.
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Offline kj7e

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 05:57:06 pm »
The funny thing is, I use a Simpson 260 as my "Monitor" on one of my LTZ1000A reference.  Turns out my reference is pretty solid according to the Simpson!
 
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Offline kj7e

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2019, 06:13:57 pm »
The funny thing is, I use a Simpson 260 as my "Monitor" on one of my LTZ1000A reference.  Turns out my reference is pretty solid according to the Simpson!

an 8.5 "needle" analog meter split into decades, it will be quite the picture in the LTZ thread for sure.

Ill put one up when I get home later today.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2019, 06:32:11 pm »
Can't measure ohms without batteries! Simpson 260 on R x1 puts out 130mA! Great for finding poor connections.
It's the batteries sagging, drifting, keep turning zero adjust. Yuck.

Digital multimeters only burned me once- measuring mains voltage and I got good V readings due to leakage currents. An analog multimeter read zero. Would have saved me hours.
Low Z voltage is an important feature.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 06:54:37 pm by floobydust »
 

Offline luma

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2019, 06:40:58 pm »
My stupid DMM has misspelled "pluses" and they still haven't released a firmware update  :-BROKE
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2019, 06:49:49 pm »
But other than to use them to null or calibrate a circuit which uses trimpots, really a DMM is a far superior tool.

Not always. Often changes and noise are easier to interpret on an analogue meter. Hence life-critical instruments are often have analogue displays, e.g. altimeters, ASI indicators and artificial horzions.

If I'm just noodling around a circuit to find gross faults, it is often faster with an analogue instrument.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2019, 06:51:17 pm »
My Simpson 260 Series 6 has two batteries for ohm mode, but one of which is also required if you want the overload protection circuit to work.
 

Offline med6753

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2019, 06:51:34 pm »
Perhaps the real issue is the user, not the DMM.  ::)
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 
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Offline Synthtech

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2019, 06:54:47 pm »
Multimeters aside, is the OP trying to reduce the information signal-to-noise ratio of the forum again?
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2019, 07:00:32 pm »
My Simpson 260 Series 6 has two batteries for ohm mode, but one of which is also required if you want the overload protection circuit to work.
Which battery are you referring to? 1.5V or 9V. Real 260's use a 22.5V battery  :-DD
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2019, 07:01:59 pm »
Multimeters aside, is the OP trying to reduce the information signal-to-noise ratio of the forum again?

My emphasis :(
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2019, 07:03:34 pm »
My Simpson 260 Series 6 has two batteries for ohm mode, but one of which is also required if you want the overload protection circuit to work.
Which battery are you referring to? 1.5V or 9V. Real 260's use a 22.5V battery  :-DD

It's the 9V. It's right in the schematic you posted. Yeah, this one isn't uber vintage. It was my dad's, though, so has sentimental value, even if it uses batteries I can still buy at the drugstore.
 
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2019, 07:18:07 pm »
Multimeters aside, is the OP trying to reduce the information signal-to-noise ratio of the forum again?

My emphasis :(

Every forum I've ever been on has that one poster...  :palm:
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2019, 07:23:35 pm »
Multimeters aside, is the OP trying to reduce the information signal-to-noise ratio of the forum again?

My emphasis :(

Every forum I've ever been on has that one poster...  :palm:

There are a few others here too, but not very many. I'm sure you have your candidates; I'm not going to draw attention to mine.

The forum rules are sensible - and are reasonably enforced by the moderators and members.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2019, 07:38:51 pm »
I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse
Analog meters with no power source have horribly low input resistance on voltage ranges. Useless on barely sensitive circuits.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2019, 07:43:20 pm »
I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse
Analog meters with no power source have horribly low input resistance on voltage ranges. Useless on barely sensitive circuits.
Yes they do, and a good one has a minimum input resistance of 20,000 OPV. But most analogue meters will have a battery for the resistance range only, unless it is an electronic meter.
Who let Murphy in?

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Online Stray Electron

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2019, 07:48:33 pm »
we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR
its annoying to keep seeing keysight and keithley threads  ;)

  The reason that you see so many Keithley and HP (aka Keysight aka Agilent) threads here is because their meters (and other equipment) WORKS the way it's supposed to without a lot of IFs, ANDs, BUTs or MAYBEs, unlike a lot of cheapo brand X crap that people are buying from China and some other 2nd rate counties. 
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2019, 08:41:44 pm »
we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR
its annoying to keep seeing keysight and keithley threads  ;)

  The reason that you see so many Keithley and HP (aka Keysight aka Agilent) threads here is because their meters (and other equipment) WORKS the way it's supposed to without a lot of IFs, ANDs, BUTs or MAYBEs, unlike a lot of cheapo brand X crap that people are buying from China and some other 2nd rate counties.
I wouldn't consider Sanwa and Hioki "2nd rate counties" (sic) - they are simply not very popular outside of their COO (Japan). Similar case can be done for Gossen and others.

BTW, your actual post is pretty ignorant and dismissive of reality, as there are several threads that talk about "lot of cheapo brand X crap" - Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here.
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2019, 08:58:20 pm »
here we go

I have a big black couch,  we can talk  loll  i'll take notes on my pad


op started a rant thread  everyone came aboard  loll
 
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2019, 09:02:31 pm »
Multimeters aside, is the OP trying to reduce the information signal-to-noise ratio of the forum again?

My emphasis :(

Every forum I've ever been on has that one poster...  :palm:

There are a few others here too, but not very many. I'm sure you have your candidates; I'm not going to draw attention to mine.

The forum rules are sensible - and are reasonably enforced by the moderators and members.

Yep, it works pretty well. I have my own theories about specific kinds of people on forums...but that's neither here nor there. :) The OP's nonsensical ramblings here and in other threads at the very least makes good entertainment.  :popcorn:
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2019, 09:08:19 pm »
It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
They still make analog wrist watches, wall clocks, speedometers. People collect analog oscilloscopes.

I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2019, 09:15:44 pm »
I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.
Well, there is basically nothing to test for 34401a. Lowest range for AC current is 1A and AC ranges are specified only above 1% of the range, 1-5% has worse spec than above 5% of the range (due to RMS converter characteristic).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:43:34 pm by wraper »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2019, 09:19:18 pm »
People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.

Even ignoring astroturfing reviews, 99.9% of review videos (and reviews for that matter) are "it arrived on time, I unboxed it, liked the colours, turned it on, it lit up as expected, it is a good device, I'm happy".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2019, 09:32:53 pm »
It's was fun putting five DMM's in series measuring mA AC and realizing what worked.

I tested a bunch of 34401a's before I realized it's just their design.
0.00000 A AC but the three least significant digits are of no use until over ~5-10mA.
The ANENG AN8008 also reads zero or low until you give it a few mA. All non-linear.
This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.

Yes an analog multimeter has a dead spot until you've overcome the rectifier diode drops. It's shown on the dial though.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2019, 09:43:24 pm »
This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.
That true RMS is not digital but analog (AD636, AD637 and similar), that's the issue. Just take multimeter with low enough AC range or newer 34461A, 34465A, 34470A which do not have this limitation in the bottom of the range because have actual digital true RMS. If you try measuring 1 mA on analog meter set to 1 A range, pointer won't even move.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 09:44:55 pm by wraper »
 

Offline kj7e

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2019, 11:12:07 pm »
Perfect reading every time.

 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2019, 11:39:52 pm »

LOL, no one told me to bin the analogue meters when I hopped on the DMM bandwagon 

so I kept them and still use them alongside the alleged sucky digitals  ;D

The AVOmeter 8 Mk5? is a gold performer coupled to a variac, to verify it's AC performance and if any breaks or bad contact with and without a load attached.

FWIW the AVO, and I suspect the Simpson (wish list aka Ebay stalking >:D) and other vintage keepers etc without any batteries can test DC and AC from zero-ish up to 3000 volts, and smile  :)
(especially if the meter is tipped upside down)


i.e. use both types, even the cheapies in both types work well enough for most tasks, so why stress which one is better ?

Trusting and trying to rough it with just one meter is asking for a good headbanging on any task  |O :rant: :horse:


I have a 'curiosity purchase' cheapie analogue/digital combo kicking around somewhere too (Jaycar brand), so yeah, maybe they are still around under different brand name badge,
for those that can't make up their  \$\Omega\$  mind

--------------------


Has OP advised what brand/model/badge of digital multimeter that sucks is in question here?   :-// 

...and the condition of the batteries, sockets, leads etc 

 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2019, 11:44:22 pm »
Has OP advised what brand/model/badge of digital multimeter that sucks is in question here?   :-// 

...and the condition of the batteries, sockets, leads etc
Of course not. Trolls don't give too many details, just enough to keep the mayhem going on... :-DD
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2019, 12:17:19 am »
Told ya, not the first time  op did that
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2019, 01:15:08 am »
Digital multimeters sucks
This is no more then crap toys

I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse

I used an analog meter for around a decade before buying my first digital meter.  The Fluke did not survive as long as my Radio Shack analog meter.   The Fluke's batteries also did not last near as long.  When I did something stupid, the cost to repair the analog meter was normally free or next to nothing.  The Fluke, not so much.   Today, I could still get parts to repair my old analog meter if I had it.  The Fluke with it's custom ICs, well thanks to eBay, I did actually bring it back to life.         


It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
...
I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
...

That's true but I can't think of a time it's been a problem for me as I normally will use some external sensor and convert to voltage AC or DC.   I would imagine a few people use Dave's amplified shunt for this reason. 

Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2019, 01:27:36 am »
It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
...
I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
...

That's true but I can't think of a time it's been a problem for me as I normally will use some external sensor and convert to voltage AC or DC.   I would imagine a few people use Dave's amplified shunt for this reason.
Or just use meter adequate for the task (which has smaller AC current ranges), note that adequate != expensive. Measuring 1mA on 1A range is not very good to begin with. And especially not smart if you don't read multimeter spec.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2019, 01:36:26 am »
This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.
That true RMS is not digital but analog (AD636, AD637 and similar), that's the issue. Just take multimeter with low enough AC range or newer 34461A, 34465A, 34470A which do not have this limitation in the bottom of the range because have actual digital true RMS. If you try measuring 1 mA on analog meter set to 1 A range, pointer won't even move.

The Hycon chip has a dedicated DSP section doing true-RMS (AC-coupled, up to 1.5kHz, -3dB 6kHz). It screws up if there is significant DC preset- the A/D clips and (ANENG) firmware does not detect this. Unlike a Simpson 260 :)
I have DMM's with the AD637, some allow AC or AC+DC true-RMS.

I have purchased 34461A's and love the cooling fan. As if there is a Cray inside, calculating the meaning of life. RPi doesn't need a cooling fan and has good computing power. Then there is the original firmware that Agilent rolled out, the beeper did not work properly. Very difficult to code and test, them beepers. I had other problems with 34461A's and they've let me down too many times.
Point is DMM's have to earn my trust now.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2019, 01:47:12 am »
Has OP advised what brand/model/badge of digital multimeter that sucks is in question here?   :-// 

...and the condition of the batteries, sockets, leads etc
Of course not. Trolls don't give too many details, just enough to keep the mayhem going on... :-DD



OP is from Antarctica  :-+

perhaps the digital meter that sucks literally froze in the manigloo/lab ?  :-//


 ;D

 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2019, 02:20:59 am »
What a tough crowd.

There are companies where standard issue is a Simpson 260 analog multimeter.
I was teasing a tech about it, when he told me they have been using them for decades and they are pretty tough and that's what his company provides.
They get used a lot out in the field and it seems to be an old school kind of industry that still uses them, as a religion. I think it's that they need low Z and ghost voltage readings made them sour to digital multimeters, or they were using the oddball dB scale.
Plus they have spare parts, know how to calibrate etc. instead of shipping them to say Fluke and paying for calibration. I wonder what that costs now for shipping and cal.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2019, 02:26:45 am »
This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.
That true RMS is not digital but analog (AD636, AD637 and similar), that's the issue. Just take multimeter with low enough AC range or newer 34461A, 34465A, 34470A which do not have this limitation in the bottom of the range because have actual digital true RMS. If you try measuring 1 mA on analog meter set to 1 A range, pointer won't even move.

The Hycon chip has a dedicated DSP section doing true-RMS (AC-coupled, up to 1.5kHz, -3dB 6kHz). It screws up if there is significant DC preset- the A/D clips and (ANENG) firmware does not detect this. Unlike a Simpson 260 :)
I have DMM's with the AD637, some allow AC or AC+DC true-RMS.

I have purchased 34461A's and love the cooling fan. As if there is a Cray inside, calculating the meaning of life. RPi doesn't need a cooling fan and has good computing power. Then there is the original firmware that Agilent rolled out, the beeper did not work properly. Very difficult to code and test, them beepers. I had other problems with 34461A's and they've let me down too many times.
Point is DMM's have to earn my trust now.
You still ignore the fact that your Simpson 260 would be completely useless if put under the same conditions as 34401A (measuring 1 mA at 1 A range).
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2019, 02:38:30 am »
It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
They still make analog wrist watches, wall clocks, speedometers. People collect analog oscilloscopes.

I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.

I bought a jackhammer and it turns out to be terrible for working on watch mechanisms. I'm going to write this thing a terrible review.
 
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Online beanflying

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2019, 02:59:09 am »
I think the OP was having 'Random Topic Starter' withdrawals after only starting two in the last three months. Need to keep their average RTS figures up  :palm:
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Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2019, 03:32:58 am »
It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
...
I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
...

That's true but I can't think of a time it's been a problem for me as I normally will use some external sensor and convert to voltage AC or DC.   I would imagine a few people use Dave's amplified shunt for this reason.
Or just use meter adequate for the task (which has smaller AC current ranges), note that adequate != expensive. Measuring 1mA on 1A range is not very good to begin with. And especially not smart if you don't read multimeter spec.
It's more than adequate to measure sub mA with a little extra hardware.  Not a big deal really.  In my case, it's not uncommon for me to use the meter with additional hardware anyway.  That said, I am guessing that floobydust is just not comfortable to setup and make a measurement like this and just want the meter to directly support it.  We all have different skill levels.  In that case, buying a more suitable meter makes sense.  I agree that reading and understanding the manual is a given.   

While looking back I am not very impressed with my first Fluke meter,  I can't imagine using an analog meter today but we all have different requirements.   

Offline floobydust

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2019, 04:09:18 am »
I just want to measure a few mA AC.
The 34401a can't measure a few mA AC on its one and only front-panel range.
Through IEEE-488 you can switch in an AC mA range but I have not checked it's accuracy.
The AN8008 is another dog here.

The Simpson 260 has a 10mA range but I checked the manual and it has no AC current measurement function. I thought it could do it, with high burden losses.

It's not a skill issue, it's uncommon knowledge that some DMM's read incorrectly on this function.
Shop I worked in it was standard procedure to check mains leakage current on all repairs. I got bit by some products despite the DMM saying all is safe. That's how I figured it out.

For now, I use Beckman/Wavetek DMM's that have no problem measuring a few mA AC. They seem to know how to properly make an active rectifier.

For the record, I don't own any analog multimeters and 001 is not paying me to be in this thread  ;)
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2019, 11:29:35 am »
Sounds like someone has thrown their a rattle out the pram or should I say DMM.

Can an analogue  meter survive a metre drop?

Yep!
I dropped an AVO 8 off the top of a transmitter---about 2m.
I put my foot out (wearing "Japanese safety boots" ;D) to prevent damage to the meter ----Ouch! Not a good idea!!

The AVO was fine, so was my foot -------after a "few" hours, & some Paracetamol !
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2019, 11:54:26 am »
Think you were lucky. Usually if you fart in the general direction of an Avo it breaks.

On the bench this week:



I like both.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2019, 12:07:26 pm »

 AVO 8 has  DC current scales down to 250uA, but unfortunately the lowest ac scale is 100mA.
http://www.richardsradios.co.uk/avo8.html

For generic voltage rail checking, there is not that much to choose from between it & my Fluke 77.
A problem the latter has that the AVO has not, is that some waveforms when looked at on the DC range read as a steady DC voltage.

On one occasion, I looked at the "boost HT" on a TV, which was supposed to be around 130v.
It read about 105v--- a bit low, but not that bad.
On checking the same test point with a 'scope, the "DC" (half wave rectified 15kHz from an overwinding on the H.O. Transformer) was obviously not filtered, due to a faulty low ESR electro.

With a ordinary analog meter, the problem would have been immediately evident.

That said, as most of the time, I use an analog Oscilloscope "free running" in the DC coupled mode for checking power rails, etc, I am quite happy with the 77 for most of the other things.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2019, 12:14:10 pm »
I just want to measure a few mA AC.
The 34401a can't measure a few mA AC on its one and only front-panel range.
Through IEEE-488 you can switch in an AC mA range but I have not checked it's accuracy.
...

It's never come up that I needed it which explains why I was not aware of that feature.  A quick search and sure enough:
https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1000001267:epsg:faq&nid=-31895.536880933.02&id=1000001267:epsg:faq

For fun I gave it a try and it seems to work.    My meter is one of the early versions. I think I bought it the same year it was released.  So there shouldn't be any compatibility problems when using this command.

Now I wonder if there are other undocumented features like this.

****
I should mention that I did not try setting the meter to slow. This was with the defaults.   
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:22:32 pm by joeqsmith »
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2019, 12:46:02 pm »
It's never come up that I needed it which explains why I was not aware of that feature.  A quick search and sure enough:
https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1000001267:epsg:faq&nid=-31895.536880933.02&id=1000001267:epsg:faq

For fun I gave it a try and it seems to work.    My meter is one of the early versions. I think I bought it the same year it was released.  So there shouldn't be any compatibility problems when using this command.

Quote
Why isn't the 10 mA ac current range included as one of the standard ranges for the Agilent 34401A? It is because adding a 100 mA range would have added significant cost to the instrument for a measurement that is infrequently used, and implementing the 10 mA range without the 100 mA range would require the long explanation, that you are currently reading.
LOL
 

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2019, 04:48:45 pm »
Honey, why did You wrote tons of shitposts here?
Keep in mind what analog dmm is a root way to understand metrology
and it did`t require expencive batteries
and etc

stop digitise world! stay ortodoxy!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 05:55:14 pm by 001 »
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2019, 05:22:54 pm »
I have one with 6 and a half needles, every from zero to nine, except the half. That solves the problem...  :-DD
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2019, 05:29:48 pm »

 AVO 8 has  DC current scales down to 250uA, but unfortunately the lowest ac scale is 100mA.
Avo 9 has 10A, 1A, 100mA, 10mA, 1mA, 300uA and 50uA DC current ranges which can be very handy and on the AC side has 10A, 1A, 100mA and 10mA thuis making more suitable for an electronics bench. I think the Avo 8 was more of an electricians meter.
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Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2019, 05:38:49 pm »
I just want to measure a few mA AC.
The 34401a can't measure a few mA AC on its one and only front-panel range.
Through IEEE-488 you can switch in an AC mA range but I have not checked it's accuracy.
...

It's never come up that I needed it which explains why I was not aware of that feature.  A quick search and sure enough:
https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1000001267:epsg:faq&nid=-31895.536880933.02&id=1000001267:epsg:faq

For fun I gave it a try and it seems to work.    My meter is one of the early versions. I think I bought it the same year it was released.  So there shouldn't be any compatibility problems when using this command.

Now I wonder if there are other undocumented features like this.

****
I should mention that I did not try setting the meter to slow. This was with the defaults.
After having the meter unplugged for several hours, the feature is indeed still enabled as the post suggests.  Just select manual range and it will show up as an option.

I then selected the longer filter and it does appear to improve the accuracy.    For fun, I tossed it across a 1 ohm 0.1% shunt which is typically how I would use the meter.   Default filter settings.
 
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Online Stray Electron

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2019, 06:03:11 pm »
we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR
its annoying to keep seeing keysight and keithley threads  ;)

  The reason that you see so many Keithley and HP (aka Keysight aka Agilent) threads here is because their meters (and other equipment) WORKS the way it's supposed to without a lot of IFs, ANDs, BUTs or MAYBEs, unlike a lot of cheapo brand X crap that people are buying from China and some other 2nd rate counties.
I wouldn't consider Sanwa and Hioki "2nd rate counties" (sic) - they are simply not very popular outside of their COO (Japan). Similar case can be done for Gossen and others.

BTW, your actual post is pretty ignorant and dismissive of reality, as there are several threads that talk about "lot of cheapo brand X crap" - Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here.

   Yeah and good luck trying to get a service manual, parts list or anything else for any of those brands. I have Anritsu, Yokogawa and other Japanese made equipment and it's all well built but there are no manuals for any of it. The only company that has ever supplied me with any information was Misubishi and they had one of their engineers mark up a Japanese language manual and fax it to me. My hat is off them. One more thing: I really wasn't talking about Japan.  Maybe you consider it to be a 2nd class country but I definitely wouldn't. Their electronics design and construction is first class but their tech support outside of Japan leaves a lot to be desired.

  "Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here."

   Those aren't exactly what I would call brand X but I guess you don't understand the difference. But still, being common doesn't mean that it's well built.  Radio Shack brand is common but most of it is still junk! Lafayette is only slightly better.   Go open any of the brands that you named and look at the build quality and compare that to pictures of the tear downs of any HP built test equipment that have been posted on this forum and then try to convince me that any of them are as well designed or well built.  And that is before we talk about the availability of parts, service manual, operators manuals, etc. 

  3roomlab  said: "we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR"

    Did anyone ever get a reply from Sanwa about this?  Has anyone ever gotten a response from Sanwa about any technical inquiry???  In fact, has anyone ever gotten a positive response from any Japanese or Chinese test equipment company company for technical support?
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2019, 10:15:05 pm »
Honey, why did You wrote tons of shitposts here?
Keep in mind what analog dmm is a root way to understand metrology
and it did`t require expencive batteries
and etc

stop digitise world! stay ortodoxy!




Dear Sir/Ma'am,

I get what you are saying about some technology that not always does us any real favors
that need batteries which may be expensive, and a hassle to buy and keep warm in Antarctica    :-\   

FYI you can learn a bit about metrology with fast and precise digits too, as well as a moving needle  :clap:
 
You kicked off this post, that's drifting off toward   'analogue meter memory lane...'    8)

but 3 pages later still not advised which 'Digital multimeters sucks' model/brand you have, 

what the application/s were to instigate the sucking POV 

and which analogue meter/s you use that do not suck (yet)

Throw us a bone here mate   :popcorn:


« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 10:19:16 pm by Electro Detective »
 
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Offline DaJMasta

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2019, 12:53:44 am »
Not sure why an analog movement would be considered "metrology" in the last 50 years, honestly.  Sure, there are accurate ones, but digital technologies and being able to display finer gradations have dominated all the most sensitive and highest resolution measurements in recent decades.  There are personal preference things and natural averaging/quick display things that analog meters can offer, but those aren't really in the realm of metrology.


Maybe the digital meters you have used haven't been well suited to your applications, maybe your analog meters are particularly good and have been well suited to your applications, but the fact is that the precision of a digital readout from a properly specified acquisition system blows an analog meter movement out of the water every time.  Even when the sensitivity and the dynamic range of the analog system are the same (or even superior), you can get about 3 digits worth of display precision on a regular sized movement, and you simply can't distinguish finer gradations which many digit digital displays have no trouble showing you - and in many applications these fine details are essential for developing, troubleshooting, or characterizing the DUT.

If you like analog meters, great.  If you have had a bad experience with digital ones, that's too bad.  Don't know how that invalidates the entire architecture across dozens of brands and hundreds of models that have been obviously preferred and market-dominant for several decades.



But I gotta say.... whining about needing a battery....... yikes.  So your preferred analog meter doesn't even have an ohms range?  I'd prefer something with features from at least the 50s...
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2019, 02:10:08 am »
   Yeah and good luck trying to get a service manual (...)
Way to go moving the goalposts from "WORKS" to "SUPPORT"...  :=\

One more thing: I really wasn't talking about Japan.  Maybe you consider it to be a 2nd class country but I definitely wouldn't. Their electronics design and construction is first class but their tech support outside of Japan leaves a lot to be desired.
Hey, I am not calling any country 2nd class - your post is the one that was dismissive of anything else other than these two brands whose HQs are in the US. 

  "Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here."

   Those aren't exactly what I would call brand X but I guess you don't understand the difference.
Hey, your post was the one that put every other brand on the market in the same bucket. It's not my fault that you were not very specific and came across as ignorant of the plethora of brands and quality levels.
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Online beanflying

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2019, 02:36:41 am »

    Did anyone ever get a reply from Sanwa about this?  Has anyone ever gotten a response from Sanwa about any technical inquiry???  In fact, has anyone ever gotten a positive response from any Japanese or Chinese test equipment company company for technical support?

YES. Advantest/ADC Corp. Japan GM Sales re request for manual and information in February and others in the past successful responses from other Asian countries/companies China included over time.

In the last month Keysight recently has FAILED to respond in any form to a support request via email and my phone call to their support line is still awaiting a response by comparison.

You Rash Generalisation/Slight against Asian manufacturers is WRONG.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2019, 01:09:57 pm »
The point is that any multimeter, unless it is mains driven bench meter uses batteries, even a analogue one. :palm:
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2019, 01:14:30 pm »
The point is that any multimeter, unless it is mains driven bench meter uses batteries, even a analogue one. :palm:

Moving coil meters are useful for many purposes, even if their batteries are missing.

However, to use them to measure resistance would require an external power source of some sort.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2019, 01:15:58 pm »


 :popcorn:
 

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2019, 01:54:44 pm »
...
    Did anyone ever get a reply from Sanwa about this?  Has anyone ever gotten a response from Sanwa about any technical inquiry???  In fact, has anyone ever gotten a positive response from any Japanese or Chinese test equipment company company for technical support?

I get responsive support from Hioki all the time.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2019, 10:51:32 pm »
I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name  :box:
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2019, 11:18:24 pm »
I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name  :box:

Is this a conspiracy by Dave to get more traffic to his Forums, and hopefully to his blogs?   >:D

We should help him.. let's start a "Fluke sucks" thread  :-DD
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2019, 11:37:12 pm »
I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name  :box:

Is this a conspiracy by Dave to get more traffic to his Forums, and hopefully to his blogs?   >:D

We should help him.. let's start a "Fluke sucks" thread  :-DD

If you really want to drum up some drama, you need to start a "UNI-T sucks" thread.   
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 11:43:17 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2019, 12:06:20 am »
Sounds like someone has thrown their a rattle out the pram or should I say DMM.

Can an analogue  meter survive a metre drop?

Yep!
I dropped an AVO 8 off the top of a transmitter---about 2m.
I put my foot out (wearing "Japanese safety boots" ;D) to prevent damage to the meter ----Ouch! Not a good idea!!

The AVO was fine, so was my foot -------after a "few" hours, & some Paracetamol !

For some reason, my cheap analog meter didn't hold up very well.  Perhaps a cheap digital one would be more robust. 
https://youtu.be/WCIpm8peQSU

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2019, 12:26:39 am »

Easily a 1000 page monstrosity here in a day if anyone dares post   "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck"

kicking off top of the list with Uni-Tee, Harbor Fright wheel chocs, and other ThreeHungLow produced promo freebies,
including cheapies labelled for CAT 4  (Tropical Cyclone survivability...in a Pelican case  :-// )


Hopefully some Antarctican member/s will eventually chime in to stick in the boots on what may be a sensitive topic   :popcorn: 

 ;D
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2019, 12:46:27 am »

Easily a 1000 page monstrosity here in a day if anyone dares post   "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck"

kicking off top of the list with Uni-Tee, Harbor Fright wheel chocs, and other ThreeHungLow produced promo freebies,
including cheapies labelled for CAT 4  (Tropical Cyclone survivability...in a Pelican case  :-// )


Hopefully some Antarctican member/s will eventually chime in to stick in the boots on what may be a sensitive topic   :popcorn: 

 ;D

How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2019, 12:57:23 am »
If you think that those questions would create a feeding frenzy, you have not seen photography forums.

Just ask: which camera brand is worse? Canon or Nikon? And watch the fanboys shred themselves to molecules.

Or the timeless dilemma: do REAL photographers prefer film over digital? Such a thread will grow in no time to several  hundred messages long.
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2019, 01:02:42 am »
Damn we're geniuses! 8)  We just gave Dave the idea to do a "Top 10 Multimeters that suck!" youtube video series.  :-DMM   Million views in a week guaranteed!
:popcorn:
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2019, 01:08:47 am »
Damn we're geniuses! 8)  We just gave Dave the idea to do a "Top 10 Multimeters that suck!" youtube video series.  :-DMM   Million views in a week guaranteed!
:popcorn:
Now that's great idea!!  Come on Dave!!!  Hopefully he kept the Extech tweezers!! 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2019, 01:15:05 am »

Start the series of videos wielding the 8 pound sledge on the no love meter   >:D

and then flashback to    '2 hours earlier in the lab... |O "

 
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Offline GregDunn

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2019, 01:22:16 am »
I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name  :box:

Trolls just like to stir the pot and then sit back and watch it overflow.  Look how far this one has come already!
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2019, 01:35:04 am »
How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

There is such list:  8)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2019, 02:19:06 am »
How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

There is such list:  8)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/
By those standards barely any analog meters would pass. CAT rating? What's that?
 
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Offline windsmurf

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2019, 02:46:44 am »
How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

There is such list:  8)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

Naw dude he changes brands each week.  Week 1 might be "Top 10 Fluke Multimeters that suck!", and Week 2 will be "Top 10 Brymen multimeters that suck!", then UniT, then Mastech, etc.     Then he gets the 1st place pick and chucks it over the dam, then sends it to Joe for final execution by electrocution.  Its brilliant!   ;D
 

Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2019, 03:42:04 am »
I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name  :box:

Trolls just like to stir the pot and then sit back and watch it overflow.  Look how far this one has come already!

I'm still amazed :(           came back on reply 58 ..........  seriously this has to stop ?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 03:44:31 am by coromonadalix »
 

Offline windsmurf

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2019, 06:36:12 am »

I'm still amazed :(           came back on reply 58 ..........  seriously this has to stop ?

I say its ok as long as you're having fun  ^-^
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #84 on: April 11, 2019, 07:28:06 am »
Honey, why did You wrote tons of shitposts here?
Keep in mind what analog dmm is a root way to understand metrology
and it did`t require expencive batteries
and etc

stop digitise world! stay ortodoxy!

What are you smoking?

Such posts do nothing to enhance the forum. I doubt this kind of post is going to endear you to many people here.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #85 on: April 11, 2019, 07:30:44 am »
I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name  :box:

The only correct answer to these trolling posts is to say, "Thanks for sharing" and leave it at that.
 

Offline shakalnokturn

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #86 on: April 11, 2019, 08:38:13 am »
I've been trying hard not to join-in to this, can't believe there are 4 pages on such a passionate debate already!
In the end I couldn't resist, it's all about human nature, we just love a quibble on sterile subjects, it keeps us busy from getting down to real work/problems. (i.e: politics/football are better subjects than sucking DMM's in this respect IMHO.)
Sorry for posting, now I have added one more brick to this mess...
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2019, 10:09:55 am »

Any mention of politics or religion (football) at many forums may get posts locked   :scared:

Afaict We're indulging in some fun and humor till OP gets the pedal power gen going again in the iced over manigloo,
and rocks up to tell what the mystery unortodox DMS is that's a big FAIL in his/her book,

and what analogue meter does the meter magic when the 'Digital multimeters sucks' 

 :D
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2019, 12:34:41 pm »
How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

There is such list:  8)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

That's why I wanted to change the title from "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck" to add "and why".   For you, a list like this carries some weight.  For me, not so much.  The list is someone's feelings about if particular meters will pass these standards.  There is very little data on how the meters would actually perform.     

Quote
Any Meter with the model number "830" All of these low priced meters are junk just waiting to blow up in your hand. (Submitted by Lightages)

If HF gives me a free meter that has a glass fuse for one shunt and no fuse for the higher current range, it may make his list but it didn't cost me anything.    If say I spent  $800 USD on a meter and anytime I go near it, it becomes unstable.  Or I place a magnetic hanger near it and it can no longer read voltages, that's much worse IMO than any free meter.    The real kicker is when you find a little MuMetal goes a LONG WAY to improve it.  Nice work Gossen! :palm:   

I've ran a lot of meters to destruction and I doubt you are going to find data on the list how my $100 meter uses a glass filler in the plastic detent spring which cracks after a few cycles.   Good design Keysight!   |O

Then again we are wasting a lot of plastic producing disposable shit.   

***

Also, " ... just waiting to blow up in your hand."  he assumes I am dumb enough to use the meter in an environment that could cause the situation he describes.  For me personally, that's not a problem.  I seldom work in these areas and when I do, I have equipment for that.    So is the free meter really just going to blow up in my hand??  Not the way I would ever use the meter.   Could the meter get damaged from my normal use, you bet... But again, it was free.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 12:43:41 pm by joeqsmith »
 
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Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2019, 01:43:52 pm »
I am actually surprised that no-one has actually invoked Goodwin's law yet. You know, to the tune of "you are an analog nazi".

But again, this forum is better behaved and more civilized than many I have visited. That is the reason I hang here the most.
 

Offline shakalnokturn

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2019, 02:08:28 pm »
Beyond politics, religion, football, or even sucking DMM's, in the end it's all about "who has the biggest meter"?

Mine is biggish, it has whopping 12cm diagonal colour analog screen (see: red/black + whatever colour you like in that shiny strip), it still works today (that alone is some proof that DMM's suck isn't it?) but... I never use it I have too many DMM's.

Totally, (even more) O.T., but as I just discovered this and had a slight grin at it, the French speaking may be amused to know that the Verge is a unit of length, unfortunately it is seldom used to determine who has the biggest meter.  :blah:

Anyone have a CRT analog meter? Or maybe a compromise with a IN-13 tube?

Sorry again! Any way we gan get this moved to "General chat"?
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2019, 02:20:27 pm »
How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

There is such list:  8)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

That's why I wanted to change the title from "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck" to add "and why".   For you, a list like this carries some weight.  For me, not so much.  The list is someone's feelings about if particular meters will pass these standards.  There is very little data on how the meters would actually perform.     

Maybe you missed the fact that most (if not all) meters listed have 250V glass fuses or unfused inputs when claiming CATII/IV ratings. That is hard data, regardless if it was subjected to testing. The list correlates specs and physical construction.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2019, 02:32:32 pm »
How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

There is such list:  8)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

That's why I wanted to change the title from "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck" to add "and why".   For you, a list like this carries some weight.  For me, not so much.  The list is someone's feelings about if particular meters will pass these standards.  There is very little data on how the meters would actually perform.     

Maybe you missed the fact that most (if not all) meters listed have 250V glass fuses or unfused inputs when claiming CATII/IV ratings. That is hard data, regardless if it was subjected to testing. The list correlates specs and physical construction.
Perhaps you missed the fact that I wrote "very little data" not no data, and that I personally care very little about it.  The real question IMO is could the meter contain the blast.     

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2019, 05:35:40 pm »
How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

There is such list:  8)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

That's why I wanted to change the title from "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck" to add "and why".   For you, a list like this carries some weight.  For me, not so much.  The list is someone's feelings about if particular meters will pass these standards.  There is very little data on how the meters would actually perform.     

Maybe you missed the fact that most (if not all) meters listed have 250V glass fuses or unfused inputs when claiming CATII/IV ratings. That is hard data, regardless if it was subjected to testing. The list correlates specs and physical construction.
Perhaps you missed the fact that I wrote "very little data" not no data, and that I personally care very little about it.  The real question IMO is could the meter contain the blast.   
I did miss that. My bad.

Blast containment is a whole other story, but certainly one of the main subjects of the EN 61010 and its subparts.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2019, 06:31:33 pm »
How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war!  :-DD

There is such list:  8)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-list-of-multimeters-that-do-not-appear-to-meet-their-claimed-safety-specs/

That's why I wanted to change the title from "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck" to add "and why".   For you, a list like this carries some weight.  For me, not so much.  The list is someone's feelings about if particular meters will pass these standards.  There is very little data on how the meters would actually perform.     

Maybe you missed the fact that most (if not all) meters listed have 250V glass fuses or unfused inputs when claiming CATII/IV ratings. That is hard data, regardless if it was subjected to testing. The list correlates specs and physical construction.
Perhaps you missed the fact that I wrote "very little data" not no data, and that I personally care very little about it.  The real question IMO is could the meter contain the blast.   
I did miss that. My bad.

Blast containment is a whole other story, but certainly one of the main subjects of the EN 61010 and its subparts.
Based on their comment "The main criteria is that all inputs must be able to withstand the maximum CAT ratings in all modes of operation, connected incorrectly or not, without harming the user."  this seems to be their primary concern. 

Safety fuses are important when we talk about the operator having a stupid moment.  But when we talk about line transients, which could pose the same threat,  this is where his list falls apart...   

Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2019, 08:29:23 pm »
Based on their comment "The main criteria is that all inputs must be able to withstand the maximum CAT ratings in all modes of operation, connected incorrectly or not, without harming the user."  this seems to be their primary concern. 

Safety fuses are important when we talk about the operator having a stupid moment.  But when we talk about line transients, which could pose the same threat,  this is where his list falls apart...
I had 830 multimeter during my childhood. I once measured mains voltage with wire plugged in amps socket because I forgot to plug it back into volts socket. In result wire acted as a fuse, disconnecting itself from the probe near to solder joint (those were not molded around the wire and were hollow inside).
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2019, 11:28:02 pm »
High Voltage and high bs CAT claims aside for a minute, what about if/when the average Richard Unfortunatto with a shiny new multimeter  :-DMM
sneaks out during the Xmas day hogout boozefest to measure Uncle Bob's crusty truck 24 and or 12 volt battery voltage,
with the meter leads in the unfused 20 Amp current inputs.  :scared:

I'm asssuming some sort of BANG! ?

battery pop ?

'Unshielded MAW' tack welds ? 

or smouldering spaghetti meter leads with tasty barbequed selector tracks and neighboring components ?


Might even take out some car electronics, including Uncle Bob's crusty CB perhaps?

Anyone seen or been there to confirm what the deal is ?        LOL, I won't be anytime soon  :D 


I suppose my point is, you can't expect ANY meter manufacturer to bail you out of 'operator error' perhaps mashed with an unforeseen freaky one time (perhaps last time..) situation,
no matter what the claims and  -controlled mayhem-  Youtube demos

Maybe some meters will live up to a lot of claims, but what if you score a dud one
or someones sold off problem they messed with or unknowingly created 


i.e. guys, if you're gonna do something risky/stupid/unknown
or one of those peeps that get off being a serial Darwin Award Nominee year in year out  :-BROKE

At least get some long dry wood sticks or PVC props with tape, ties, glue, garter bands or whatever 

with some serious personal PPE between you, and the  'CAT X?'  meter and the possible source of DUT BANG!

and get some proper 'will blo' fuses somewhere in on the game too,
even expl0ding flying shrapnel glass fuses are better than nothing!


hey, and don't forget to switch on the freakin camera, and share on Youtube > PLEASE!   :popcorn:

« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 11:30:13 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Online wraper

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2019, 12:29:59 am »
with the meter leads in the unfused 20 Amp current inputs.  :scared:

I'm asssuming some sort of BANG! ?

battery pop ?

'Unshielded MAW' tack welds ? 

or smouldering spaghetti meter leads with tasty barbequed selector tracks and neighboring components ?
Wire insulation might weld into hands. Happened to me at a childhood when I shorted old and supposedly "dead" 6V lead-acid motorcycle battery.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #98 on: April 12, 2019, 01:45:16 am »
Based on their comment "The main criteria is that all inputs must be able to withstand the maximum CAT ratings in all modes of operation, connected incorrectly or not, without harming the user."  this seems to be their primary concern. 

Safety fuses are important when we talk about the operator having a stupid moment.  But when we talk about line transients, which could pose the same threat,  this is where his list falls apart...
I had 830 multimeter during my childhood. I once measured mains voltage with wire plugged in amps socket because I forgot to plug it back into volts socket. In result wire acted as a fuse, disconnecting itself from the probe near to solder joint (those were not molded around the wire and were hollow inside).
Break currents/voltage levels in a home won't normally be what you can find in an industrial environment.    Then again, if you work in that environment, I doubt you would be out there with your free meter. 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #99 on: April 12, 2019, 01:49:22 am »
High Voltage and high bs CAT claims aside for a minute, what about if/when the average Richard Unfortunatto with a shiny new multimeter  :-DMM
sneaks out during the Xmas day hogout boozefest to measure Uncle Bob's crusty truck 24 and or 12 volt battery voltage,
with the meter leads in the unfused 20 Amp current inputs.  :scared:

I'm asssuming some sort of BANG! ?

battery pop ?

'Unshielded MAW' tack welds ? 

or smouldering spaghetti meter leads with tasty barbequed selector tracks and neighboring components ?


Might even take out some car electronics, including Uncle Bob's crusty CB perhaps?

Anyone seen or been there to confirm what the deal is ?        LOL, I won't be anytime soon  :D 


I suppose my point is, you can't expect ANY meter manufacturer to bail you out of 'operator error' perhaps mashed with an unforeseen freaky one time (perhaps last time..) situation,
no matter what the claims and  -controlled mayhem-  Youtube demos

Maybe some meters will live up to a lot of claims, but what if you score a dud one
or someones sold off problem they messed with or unknowingly created 


i.e. guys, if you're gonna do something risky/stupid/unknown
or one of those peeps that get off being a serial Darwin Award Nominee year in year out  :-BROKE

At least get some long dry wood sticks or PVC props with tape, ties, glue, garter bands or whatever 

with some serious personal PPE between you, and the  'CAT X?'  meter and the possible source of DUT BANG!

and get some proper 'will blo' fuses somewhere in on the game too,
even expl0ding flying shrapnel glass fuses are better than nothing!

hey, and don't forget to switch on the freakin camera, and share on Youtube > PLEASE!   :popcorn:

Camera rolling, leads pushed to failure....
https://youtu.be/fQowDZstguw?t=1771

Offline bd139

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #100 on: April 12, 2019, 08:47:09 am »
Excellent example.

I'm not ashamed to say I did this once by accident. Maplin precision gold multimeter. Had been using it on 10A current at home the night before to monitor an RC car battery charger. Got to the car at 6AM in the morning when I was half asleep and it was dark and it wouldn't start so I went back in, got the DMM and went back out to check the battery voltage. Now the meter had the 20V DC and 10A ranges at opposite ends of the range switch. The little black mark on the end of the range switch had worn off. Stuffed it on 20V DC I thought (no - 10A), touched the battery terminals. Big spark, probes welded on, one of the DMM leads disappeared in a cloud of smoke in two seconds flat.

You have been warned.

Good things we have now:

1. Probe alert.
2. Fused 10A ranges with proper fuses. Not pansy ones.
3. Probes which fuse before catching fire.
4. Cars without Lucas electrics.

(Edit: add point 4)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 08:50:14 am by bd139 »
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #101 on: April 12, 2019, 11:35:40 am »
The high current shunts need to be included...
https://youtu.be/ne4Ls2mPF-s?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQDhlXQCyoNSDmUjb6lAqC8z&t=1838

I later added a second supply.   
https://youtu.be/3dxEmi4FGT0?t=33
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 11:49:29 am by joeqsmith »
 

Offline 001Topic starter

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2019, 08:42:03 am »
no honey  :-//
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2019, 08:47:05 am »
no honey  :-//
Why feed the troll ?  :-//
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2019, 07:47:09 pm »
Tautech, I'm with you, I've fallen for other posts by the OP before and the more I think about the more convinced I am that it's just a big windup and as such is a pure waste of time responding as the OP seems incapable of of providing any coherent information or sensible response.  :rant:
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline 001Topic starter

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2019, 05:01:57 pm »
   OP seems incapable of of providing any coherent information or sensible response.  :rant:
My english spelling not so wheel as my bright brains  :-//
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Digital multimeters sucks
« Reply #106 on: June 10, 2019, 07:20:51 am »
Digital multimeters sucks
This is no more then crap toys
I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse

Must sucks not being able to measure resistance.
 
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