Author Topic: Digital Oscilloscope Chart  (Read 108886 times)

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Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #100 on: January 01, 2016, 11:11:55 pm »
Hi,

I added R&S RTE1000.
Fixed some mistakes in serial decoding.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2016, 05:03:27 am »
There is obsolete information in Siglent SDS2000 data.

Memory is not anymore 28M. It is 70M.   (and it is same also for all old units, not only new units)
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2016, 05:59:23 am »
There is obsolete information in Siglent SDS2000 data.

Memory is not anymore 28M. It is 70M.   (and it is same also for all old units, not only new units)
+1
The new V2 FW enabled the increased memory and while datasheets and websites are yet to be updated I can confirm new SDS2000 series DSO's are now shipped from the factory with this new FW installed.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist & NZ Siglent Distributor
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #103 on: January 13, 2016, 02:19:00 am »
There is obsolete information in Siglent SDS2000 data.

Memory is not anymore 28M. It is 70M.   (and it is same also for all old units, not only new units)
+1
The new V2 FW enabled the increased memory and while datasheets and websites are yet to be updated I can confirm new SDS2000 series DSO's are now shipped from the factory with this new FW installed.

Thank you rf-loop and tautech regarding SDS2000!
I will update the chart :)
 

Offline smarteebit

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2016, 06:24:19 pm »
Updated on 01 Janurary, 2016

I attached the chart comparing the many well known digital Oscilloscopes in the market.
...

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Thank you for the summary. It should be very useful for people who has the plan to purchase a DSO.
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #105 on: January 17, 2016, 01:02:33 am »
Updated on 01 Janurary, 2016

I attached the chart comparing the many well known digital Oscilloscopes in the market.
...

[/color]

Thank you for the summary. It should be very useful for people who has the plan to purchase a DSO.

Thank you smarteebit!
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2016, 01:03:45 am »
Hi rf-loop and tautech,

I just updated the chart of the spec of Siglent SDS2000. :)
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #107 on: January 24, 2016, 06:41:29 pm »
Hi,

Added R&S RTE1000
Added Iwatsu DS-5600A
Added KeySight DSO-X 6000X
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #108 on: January 25, 2016, 10:00:08 pm »
Hi,

Added R&S HMO1200.
 

Offline broz

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #109 on: February 17, 2016, 04:39:35 am »
Thanks for this! Was/am pretty set on purchasing the Rigol 1054Z once the funds are available; or an inexpensive, lightly used analog scope; whichever comes first (starving EE student), however this has given me more to consider.
Slowly but surely making my way through EE school
 

Offline lesk

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2016, 11:39:49 am »
Thanks for this, I'm in the market for a Scope and this have been very helpful.
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #111 on: February 22, 2016, 07:44:24 pm »
Hi borz and lesk,

You are most welcome. :)
I initially wanted to add few columns more but am bit busy and not able to do it.

I will update this chart one by one.

Hoping good for your study and your bossiness. :)
 

Offline Mosaic

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DS2072A to DS2302A 'upgrade'.
« Reply #112 on: April 09, 2016, 06:59:37 pm »
With  well calibrated leveled sine wave gens, SG503 and SG504 (TEK) using my custom made remote head for flatness <0.1dB @ the scope BNC I re-evaluated the 'upgraded' Rigol bandwidth.

Figures of merit:

150Mhz - Rigol is still accurate  matching the Vpp of the signal.

300Mhz - Rigol is down 2dB in amplitude.

400 Mhz - Rigol is down 3dB in amplitude.

I'd go with using it to 175Mhz max as reasonably accurate. Start factoring in losses past that.

This cross reference check matches quite well with the VNA results.
 
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Online rs20

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Re: DS2072A to DS2302A 'upgrade'.
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2016, 08:25:25 pm »
I'd go with using it to 175Mhz max as reasonably accurate. Start factoring in losses past that.

Your comment seems to have come out of the blue? What's the context here?

Anyway, you do realise that scope bandwidth is defined as the -3dB bandwidth, right? So according to your figures (what scope are you even talking about?), the scope has a bandwidth of 400 MHz, which is pretty good if we're talking about a DS2302A that claims only 300 MHz.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #114 on: June 09, 2016, 05:48:32 pm »
Can I suggest some edits to Siglent model data.
There has been a number of enhancements recently added to two series of Siglent DSO's namely the SDS1000+ and SDS1000X+.

The SDS1000+ range now sports a 800x480 display and LAN.
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/pdxx.aspx?id=1428&T=2&tid=1

The SDS1000X+ range now has 16 digital channels and supports I2C,SPI,UART/RS232,CAN,LIN decoding, further protocols than you have listed in the tables.
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/pdxx.aspx?id=1451&T=2&tid=1

Thanks in advance.

Avid Rabid Hobbyist & NZ Siglent Distributor
 
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Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2016, 01:31:03 am »
Can I suggest some edits to Siglent model data.
There has been a number of enhancements recently added to two series of Siglent DSO's namely the SDS1000+ and SDS1000X+.

The SDS1000+ range now sports a 800x480 display and LAN.
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/pdxx.aspx?id=1428&T=2&tid=1

The SDS1000X+ range now has 16 digital channels and supports I2C,SPI,UART/RS232,CAN,LIN decoding, further protocols than you have listed in the tables.
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/pdxx.aspx?id=1451&T=2&tid=1

Thanks in advance.

Thank you tautech.

I have not updated the chart nearly 5 months.
I will probably update the chart this weekend.

Best,
 
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Offline Mosaic

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Re: DS2072A to DS2302A 'upgrade'.
« Reply #116 on: July 07, 2016, 11:37:02 am »
At 175Mhz the amplitude 'losses' are small and the scope's peak to peak can be considered reliable. While the industry rates bandwidth performance at 3dB down, I prefer to know the absolute values of what is being measured. Also note the captioned heading of my post "DS2072A to DS2302A 'upgrade' to know what I am referring to.




I'd go with using it to 175Mhz max as reasonably accurate. Start factoring in losses past that.

Your comment seems to have come out of the blue? What's the context here?

Anyway, you do realise that scope bandwidth is defined as the -3dB bandwidth, right? So according to your figures (what scope are you even talking about?), the scope has a bandwidth of 400 MHz, which is pretty good if we're talking about a DS2302A that claims only 300 MHz.
 

Online rs20

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Re: DS2072A to DS2302A 'upgrade'.
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2016, 12:44:49 pm »
At 175Mhz the amplitude 'losses' are small and the scope's peak to peak can be considered reliable. While the industry rates bandwidth performance at 3dB down, I prefer to know the absolute values of what is being measured.

OK, just so long as you realise that individually "correcting" every single scope's bandwidth on the market is a fools errand. Bandwidth is defined as the -3dB point, this is a global standard across filters, amplifiers, ADCs, oscilloscopes, etc. Maybe I'm misreading, but you seem to be insinuating (e.g., with the quotes you place around 'upgrade') that "the industry" is pulling a dirty trick here, while it's actually conforming to a universal standard. It'd be weird if the pre-upgrade 70 MHz scope measured 70 MHz "correctly".

Put simply, if you upgrade a scope to 300 MHz and expect amplitudes to be accurate at 299 MHz, your expectations are wrong. It's an understandable 'trap for young players', but that's not the fault of the industry, nor any particular company. Defining the bandwidth of an RC filter would be a pain otherwise.
 
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Offline Mosaic

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2016, 06:14:31 am »
It's a 'trap' I did fall into years ago when I purchased my first scope, believing it would read amplitude correctly at the rated bandwidth.
While 3dB is an industry standard, so was feet and inches until the world went metric. Hopefully 100Mhz BW will actually mean 100Mhz BW @ full amplitude one day.
I am not insinuating it I am saying it loud and clear. 100MHz BW  should mean exactly that as far as the instrument accuracy goes. Not half down the power scale. Or perhaps the units should be labeled 100Mhz at half true power readings.

I worked in the advertising industry for a long time as a production engineer and the ambiguity found in so called engineering disciplines and nomenclature is unpleasant.

The industry does specify RF amplifiers at 1dB compression point for nonlinearity as well as the IP3 point. So it's not as though these things are unimportant.

The status quo always needs upgrading as technology moves ahead.


 

Offline marmad

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2016, 07:01:35 am »
I worked in the advertising industry for a long time as a production engineer and the ambiguity found in so called engineering disciplines and nomenclature is unpleasant.

The problem is that even if there are agreed upon 'best practices' for designating specifications, many manufacturers won't follow those practices to either try to make their gear look competitive against better equipment, or to hide flaws.

An old favorite of mine is the frequency response of a sound system (or amp or loudspeaker, etc). Many manufacturers list this without a specified decibel range - which makes the specification meaningless.

Or a new favorite is the wfrm/s specification of DSOs. Some people know that this typically means the fastest possible rate at just one particular scale setting with sin(x)/x turned off (i.e. dots mode), but it's not always specified (or if it is, it's hidden in footnotes), so other buyers don't have a clue - leading to YouTube videos of consumers complaining that their DSO is not achieving the advertised speed.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 07:04:41 am by marmad »
 
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Online rs20

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2016, 10:32:24 am »
It's a 'trap' I did fall into years ago when I purchased my first scope, believing it would read amplitude correctly at the rated bandwidth.
While 3dB is an industry standard, so was feet and inches until the world went metric. Hopefully 100Mhz BW will actually mean 100Mhz BW @ full amplitude one day.

OK, for a start, what does "full amplitude mean"? I'm going to pretend you wrote something actually measurable there, like 0.1dB.

So, should Horowitz and Hill update their definition of bandwidth/corner-frequency? From BW = 1/(2*pi*R*C) to BW" @ 0.1dB" = <hacky correction factor>/RC? From a beautifully elegant definition of the point where the reactances of the R and the C are equal, to some hacky pragmatic definition optimized for confused oscilloscope buyers?

Shall we redefine spectral linewidth of laser to not be the FWHM measurement (which is another word for -3dB)? Acoustic systems? Mechanical filters?

Or should we do the most horrible thing of all, and redefine bandwidth to mean @ 0.1dB for oscilloscope only? WTF?

I am not insinuating it I am saying it loud and clear. 100MHz BW  should mean exactly that as far as the instrument accuracy goes. Not half down the power scale. Or perhaps the units should be labeled 100Mhz at half true power readings.

Guess what. 100 MHz bandwidth means 100Mhz at half true power readings. That's just exactly what it means, and always has. You suggest the scopes should have "100Mhz at half true power readings" printed on them. That's what they already have written on them, unless you make unwarranted and wrong assumptions about what the word "bandwidth" means, and always has meant.

I worked in the advertising industry for a long time as a production engineer and the ambiguity found in so called engineering disciplines and nomenclature is unpleasant.

Ambiguity? Ambiguity? Bandwidth is unambiguously the -3dB point, across all engineering disciplines. You're trying to introduce the ambiguity here by proposing an alternative  :palm:

The industry does specify RF amplifiers at 1dB compression point for nonlinearity as well as the IP3 point. So it's not as though these things are unimportant.

WTF? Is there a precedent for measuring non-linearity at the "3dB compression point"? Like the innumerable precedents for -3dB as a bandwidth measurements, e.g. elegant formulas for such a thing in Horowitz and Hill? The very same datasheets for RF amplifiers still specify the bandwidth at -3dB, with perfect consistency with the definition of bandwidth in the rest of engineering. Your analogy makes no sense. Engineers understand and expect the bandwidth to be 3dB down, so that's what datasheets provide. Engineers understand and expect the non-linearity to be measured at the stated point, so that's what datasheets provide.

The status quo always needs upgrading as technology moves ahead.

The "improvements" that you propose are far, far more confusing and ugly than the reality we have today. Only when viewed through the tunnel-vision of oscilloscope buying does it even slightly make sense, and even then it's completely at odds with all we've all learned about filters bandwidths and spectral linewidths, not to mention other fields of engineering. I can't stress this enough, your campaign to redefine the word "bandwidth" will most surely fail. I encourage you to bring your definition into line with the rest of the world.

Edit: besides, even a scope that was "100 MHz" by your definition would not handle 90 MHz square waves properly. Is that an oscilloscope manufacturer scam as well, now? You can't get away from it, there's no substitute for actual understanding.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 10:50:14 am by rs20 »
 
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Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #121 on: July 17, 2016, 07:03:20 pm »
Can I suggest some edits to Siglent model data.
There has been a number of enhancements recently added to two series of Siglent DSO's namely the SDS1000+ and SDS1000X+.

The SDS1000+ range now sports a 800x480 display and LAN.
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/pdxx.aspx?id=1428&T=2&tid=1

The SDS1000X+ range now has 16 digital channels and supports I2C,SPI,UART/RS232,CAN,LIN decoding, further protocols than you have listed in the tables.
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/pdxx.aspx?id=1451&T=2&tid=1

Thanks in advance.

Hi tautech,

I finally updated the chart. :)

Please let me know if you find any mistake.
 
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Offline Blisk

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #122 on: November 08, 2016, 08:22:05 am »
So as far as I see from these tables most what I can get in range Starting 600 USD - 1,100 USD models
Is Siglent SDS2000X
 

Offline joetinkerer

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #123 on: November 10, 2016, 08:50:36 am »
Actually, a lot of the Siglent models are on sale at the moment so not quite as much as you thought blisk.  :)

bit.ly/digital-oscilloscopes

The chart seems a good idea and a great way to compare models & manufacturers.
 

Offline alex27riva

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Re: Digital Oscilloscope Chart
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2016, 08:05:39 am »
Hi, the Rigol DS1052E still a good oscilloscope for a beginner?
I need the oscilloscope for hobby purposes, I don't have special needs.
I will use this oscilloscope for testing oscillator circuits, Arduino signals, NE555, filters and so on.
 


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