Author Topic: Digital scope underwater  (Read 1638 times)

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Offline boumboauto

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Digital scope underwater
« on: January 14, 2018, 12:22:03 am »
Hello,

I'm working on a projet to monitor voltages in an underwater enclosure. Once in the water the only links I have are Ethernet and 230V.

I was looking at different options, oscilloscopes with an LXI port like the Rigol DS1054Z, oscilloscopes like the Keysight DSO60x0L series.

The measurements to be made are to look at the output of a 4 quadrant inverter and see if overvoltage may appear. The PWM output is at 8kHz but I'd like to have 100Mhz per channel to see fast transients.

Would you recommend using the 400$ option with the Rigol, or the 15000$ option with the Keysight ?
The constraint is that I will not be able to physocally access the scope once it's in the underwater enclosure.
I wonder why the Keysight is so expensive regarding to its specs.


David
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2018, 12:36:59 am »
So the whole 1054Z will be in the water too or what ? Your intention is not that clear. You even haven't stated if you need all those 4 channels.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2018, 01:02:28 am »
Inverter.
Overvoltage.
Water. (Inverter must be submersed for the question to make sense).
Someone in water looking at scope.

What could possibly go wrong?
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2018, 01:19:10 am »
Get one of these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/122344488818 , looks quite water-proof-ish >:D

 

Offline 0xfede

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2018, 01:50:51 am »
Inverter.
Overvoltage.
Water. (Inverter must be submersed for the question to make sense).
Someone in water looking at scope.

What could possibly go wrong?

  :-DD
It could rain


« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 02:05:33 am by 0xfede »
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Online blueskull

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2018, 02:53:32 am »
I wonder why the Keysight is so expensive regarding to its specs.

DSO6000L is made for ATE applications. If you run an IC fab or packaging house, you won't care about $21211 for a piece of equipment that runs 24*7 making money for you.
Also, anyway you don't have a choice. Not so many players make those rack mount headless scopes.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2018, 03:03:20 am »
The R&S RTB2000 has a very good and fast remote web interface over gbit ethernet, pretty much like having the scope in front of you.
Though for something like this you may want to use something cheap in case of leaks....

Minor issue with some recent scopes is they have a soft on-off button, so may not be able to reset remotely by power cycling if something goes wrong. The RTB2000 does remember its soft on/off state so can be remotely power cycled.

Another option may be a USB scope with a USB-ethernet converter, e.g. the Owon VDS3104. They do show a version with inbuilt ethernet but not sure if this is actually available or implemented - the USB one is pretty decent.

 
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Offline Bud

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2018, 03:20:10 am »
Sorry, how airflow for scope ( and the device) cooling will be provided?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2018, 03:25:49 am »
Sorry, how airflow for scope ( and the device) cooling will be provided?
Water is somewhat thermally conductive, so as long as the case walls aren't too thermally insulated heat shouldn't be a problem. 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2018, 07:51:56 am »
Why are you restricted to benchtop? Why not look into handhelds?

The problem is you'd need to find one that's waterproof, has four channels (or two dual channel ones), and has remote access.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2018, 08:02:55 am »
Why are you restricted to benchtop? Why not look into handhelds?

The problem is you'd need to find one that's waterproof, has four channels (or two dual channel ones), and has remote access.
It's in an enclosure, the issue appears to just be remote access
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Online nctnico

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2018, 08:05:38 am »
For this purpose I'd get something which has been designed to be used remotely. Picoscope may have something suitable. A regular benchtop scope doesn't have the software to do remote operation very well.
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2018, 08:16:52 am »
What about the Fluke 190 series handhelds? They say something about hands-free operation.
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Offline Rick Law

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2018, 08:43:55 am »
Hello,

I'm working on a projet to monitor voltages in an underwater enclosure. Once in the water the only links I have are Ethernet and 230V.

I was looking at different options, oscilloscopes with an LXI port like the Rigol DS1054Z, oscilloscopes like the Keysight DSO60x0L series.

The measurements to be made are to look at the output of a 4 quadrant inverter and see if overvoltage may appear. The PWM output is at 8kHz but I'd like to have 100Mhz per channel to see fast transients.

Would you recommend using the 400$ option with the Rigol, or the 15000$ option with the Keysight ?
The constraint is that I will not be able to physocally access the scope once it's in the underwater enclosure.
I wonder why the Keysight is so expensive regarding to its specs.


David

You really have to specify how deep is the water and how you plan to use it to get a sensible answer.

2 feet down?  100 feet down? 36,000+ feet down?  Each will require very different machines.

- For two feet down, you can probably route the signal to above water.
- For 100 feet down, now it is beyond just wet.  Water pressure is an issue.  All seals need special care.  The enclosure needs to be design not just to block water but also to withstand pressure.
- For use down at the Mariana Trench... at 36,000+ feet down, you better be in good standing with your God.  There is a good likelihood you will meet him/her before you get your measuring device working.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2018, 11:32:51 pm »
I was looking at different options, oscilloscopes with an LXI port like the Rigol DS1054Z, oscilloscopes like the Keysight DSO60x0L series.

The measurements to be made are to look at the output of a 4 quadrant inverter and see if overvoltage may appear. The PWM output is at 8kHz but I'd like to have 100Mhz per channel to see fast transients.
The rigol is only 100MHz when you're using one channel. It's 25 MHz on 4 channels.
See below.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 11:52:33 pm by Jeroen3 »
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 11:47:32 pm »
Rigol DS1054Z has 100MHz capability with all 4 channels active. Same 100MHz as for 1 channel only. The 100MHz bandwidth is coming from the analog front end, and not from the ADC sample rate.

The ADC sample rate is 1GSa/s in 1 channel mode, 500MSa/s in 2 channels mode, 250MSa/s in 3 or 4 channels mode.

Offline SVFeingold

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2018, 01:54:47 am »
Can't remember anyone asking "Should I get the $400 scope or the $16k scope?" It sounds like you aren't quite sure of your requirements, but in any case I'd wager that $16k is far more scope than you need for this. How fast are these transients you need to capture?

Although it's not your money you'll be spending, have you ever designed an underwater enclosure before? How deep is this?
 

Offline daqq

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 02:03:52 am »
The cheapest option would probably be a cheap USB scope + some embedded PC to which you connect via remote desktop.
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Offline JoHr

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2018, 01:08:14 am »
I´d propose a RTB2000   due to its low fan activities ...

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rtb2000-productstartpage_63493-266306.html
or an R&S RTH Scope Rider
https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/nl/product/rth-productstartpage_63493-156160.html
( battery driven, fanless, has a remote access via webserver as well )


But I´have no idea what that would be in your enclosed environment ...

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Offline free_electron

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2018, 02:22:53 am »
Hello,

I'm working on a projet to monitor voltages in an underwater enclosure. Once in the water the only links I have are Ethernet and 230V.

so .. get an ethernet based scope. simple ethernet switch and off you go.

bitscope has an ethernet machine.

https://rlx.sk/en/pc-oscilloscopes-usb/2672-cs328ae-ethernet-oscilloscope-10bit100msas-2-analog-8-digitalisolated-ethernet.html

rigol has one too i think

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2018, 03:57:10 am »
BTW This is the RTB2004 network mode
https://youtu.be/mcgJSKxj0i0?t=266

Also, if you need something small, it may be possible to re-case the main PCB - I think you may also need the front panel PCB but you should be able to omit the display
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Offline billfernandez

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2018, 05:01:04 am »
National Instruments may have something you can use (although if this is a hobbyist project in might be too expensive).  They specialize in data acquisition modules that are computer controlled and remotely connected.

http://www.ni.com/en-us/innovations/technology.html
 

Offline JoHr

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2018, 06:57:02 pm »
Which kinds of acquisitions do you want to take?
Just a acquisitions of your switching cycles or is it more like a long term measurement?
-----------------------------------
I´ve not seen a scope until now which can stream such enormous amount of acquiered data...
On the other hand you may get a lot gaps between acquisitions.

There for a logger might be better...
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Offline tautech

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2018, 07:09:49 pm »
After 3 days, not a peep from the OP.  :-//

He might like to check the SDS1*04X-E LXI speeds found in this thread:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796
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Offline boumboauto

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Re: Digital scope underwater
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2018, 08:05:41 am »
Sorry for all the confusion, the oscilloscope does not need to be waterproof, it will not be directly immerged into the water. It will be in a watertight enclosure.

The point is to measure voltages at the 3 phases + neutral point of a motor driven by an inverter in order to see if the inverter is doing his job properly.

The voltage to ground to be measured will be between 0V and 2000V depending on how fast the motor is spinning.

I was more oriented towards the picoscope + embeded PC option, but I like the RS2000 idea, does it has a fan ? Otherwise the NI cDAQ seems to be a good option as well.
The scope will be in a harsh electromagnetic due to the close by frequency converter driving the motor.

Thanks to all for your suggestions and sorry for the late reply ;(
 


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