Author Topic: DS1054z No waveform on any channel (Read 7286 times)

realitycomputer · « **on:** September 16, 2018, 07:00:15 pm »

Hi all,

Been a reader of the forum for a long time.
First time I've needed to make a post, as usually I can find anything I need to know in the forum!

I am a beginner/hobbyist and have one of the ubiquitous Rigol DS1054z oscilloscopes.
Until now it has served me well.

On last usage and shutdown, everything had been working fine.

Upon next boot up (a few days later) I discovered that it was no longer displaying any waveform, of any kind.
Not even the usual "noise" etc, of just having a probe plugged in.
Absolutely nothing! There is no line of any kind across the screen.
This is the case on all channels.

I tried a good few power cycles.
I tried a reset by holding the 5th left side grey button in, during power up (resulting in changing to a Chinese language layout)
I've tried the simple "default" settings button.
There is no difference in having a probe connected, or not.
All buttons, settings, etc, appear to function normally, allowing access through the menus to make changes to settings, etc.
Trying different trigger modes, and "Auto" make no difference.

Does anyone have any idea what the problem might be!?
I was kind of hoping that it's just an easily solved "glitch" rather than having to go through the hassle of sending it back!

Thanks for any help!

xrunner · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2018, 07:04:58 pm »

Did you try doing the scope calibration routine (remove all probes first) Utility - Self-Cal. What happens?

alsetalokin4017 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2018, 07:53:57 pm »

So presumably the other screen displays are showing up correctly? Graticule, top bar, channel setting indicators, menus, etc all showing up properly, just no signal traces?

Run/Stop button green, scope is actually running (showing green "RUN" at top left next to "RIGOL"), and so on?

You have Utility>System>Power Set>Default set in the Utility menu?

I have not heard of this problem before.

Fungus · « **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2018, 07:58:33 pm »

seems ulikely it would die like that. Is it remembering the previous state/settings after a power cycle?

Try holding down this button when you power it on.

After that, do a calibration.

realitycomputer · « **Reply #4 on:** September 16, 2018, 09:40:21 pm »

Xrunner - Yes, I have tried "Self Calibration"
It appears to run, but then just hangs with the first blue part of the progress bar stuck. (the blue section that pops up immediately)

alsetalokin4017 - Yes, that is correct.

Everything else appears to be "present and correct"!
Even the Menu/Settings appear to work.

Yes, it is set to Power - "Default"

Fungus - Yes, I have already tried that reset method (mentioned before). It appeared to actually "Do" the reset, as the language reverted to Chinese.
Unfortunately, it had no effect on the problem.

realitycomputer · « **Reply #5 on:** September 16, 2018, 11:45:43 pm »

Here's a couple of quick pics.....

realitycomputer · « **Reply #6 on:** September 16, 2018, 11:46:47 pm »

And the 2nd pic.....

xrunner · « **Reply #7 on:** September 16, 2018, 11:57:56 pm »

Well I don't know ...

Well what if you connected a DC power supply to channel 1 and say cranked it up from zero to say 30V, and then reversed polarity and did the same thing. Do you ever see the trace fly past on the display? I wonder if a big bias has been applied to a critical stage that is the failure that affects both ac and dc settings on all channels?

See what the other guys say ...

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #8 on:** September 17, 2018, 12:18:28 am »

i have a bad feeling about this (i cannot get my trace disappear as in the picture)...

Fungus · « **Reply #9 on:** September 17, 2018, 02:22:22 am »

Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 17, 2018, 12:18:28 am

i have a bad feeling about this (i cannot get my trace disappear as in the picture)...

If a trace goes off the bottom it will disappear from the screen.

Quote from: realitycomputer on September 16, 2018, 09:40:21 pm

Fungus - Yes, I have already tried that reset method (mentioned before). It appeared to actually "Do" the reset, as the language reverted to Chinese.
Unfortunately, it had no effect on the problem.

It's starting to sound like a genuine hardware fault. How old is it?

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #10 on:** September 17, 2018, 02:37:04 am »

Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2018, 02:22:22 am

Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 17, 2018, 12:18:28 am
i have a bad feeling about this (i cannot get my trace disappear as in the picture)...
If a trace goes off the bottom it will disappear from the screen.

trace goes off the bottom (or top doesnt matter) when no input connected... i have a bad feeling about this...

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #11 on:** September 17, 2018, 02:44:05 am »

Quote from: Fungus on September 17, 2018, 02:22:22 am

Quote from: Mechatrommer on September 17, 2018, 12:18:28 am
i have a bad feeling about this (i cannot get my trace disappear as in the picture)...
If a trace goes off the bottom it will disappear from the screen.

correction... no! on ds1000z, if signal clipped to top or bottom, there still trace on top or bottom most (see attached, signal is dso's compensation square signal), so yes i still cannot get my trace disappear...

alsetalokin4017 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2018, 03:06:26 am »

What happens if you press the Run/Stop button to stop the scope, then press the Clear button?
Or, in Normal trigger mode, set trigger level to something positive, so the scope enters Wait... then press Clear button?

newbrain · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2018, 05:41:31 am »

Not much to add to what's been said.

As a last resort you might try to reflash the FW, in case it has been corrupted somehow.

TurboTom · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2018, 05:58:23 am »

I'ld also say, flash the firmware. Reset it to default (storage->default). Put scope in "single" shot mode and press "force trigger". Does the run/stop indicator turn red? Any trace of a trace

? If the indicator stays green, there's problem with the trigger engine. If it goes red and still nothing visible on the screen, your guess is as good as mine. Probably hardware fault. If it's out of warranty there would be little you can do. Maybe open it up and check the power rails around the ADC, the PLL and the FPGA.

Good luck!

BillyD · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2018, 07:05:08 am »

A very long shot and no doubt you've already considered it... is there any chance the trace brightness has been turned all the way down?

alsetalokin4017 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2018, 12:07:10 pm »

Quote from: BillyD on September 17, 2018, 07:05:08 am

A very long shot and no doubt you've already considered it... is there any chance the trace brightness has been turned all the way down?

Nope, that's the first thing I thought of too but my DS1054z still has a respectable trace brightness even when it's turned down as far as the control allows. Even tried Dots instead of Vectors, still shows a nicely visible line when brightness is turned down all the way. Grid brightness too, although that doesn't affect the trace brightness.

Also this is one of the parameters that gets reset to default (60 percent I believe) when doing the factory reset or startup>default on startup.

alsetalokin4017 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 17, 2018, 12:09:16 pm »

Quote from: newbrain on September 17, 2018, 05:41:31 am

Not much to add to what's been said.

As a last resort you might try to reflash the FW, in case it has been corrupted somehow.

This ^, but the prospects probably aren't good.

If flashing the firmware (if it allows you to at all) doesn't work, then it's time to contact Rigol. I'd get in touch with Rigol before poking around in there, myself.

nctnico · « **Reply #18 on:** September 17, 2018, 12:56:53 pm »

The defaults button should put some traces on the screen on any piece of test equipment. If that is not the case for the OP's DS1054Z then I think it is time to contact Rigol.

Fungus · « **Reply #19 on:** September 17, 2018, 01:04:32 pm »

Time to get the garantee card out, methinks.

If the garantee has tun out then it's time to open it up and check the power supply, especially the negative voltages. All the voltages are shown here:

https://www.experimental-engineering.co.uk/rigol-ds1054z-power-supply-project/

Adrian_Arg. · « **Reply #20 on:** September 17, 2018, 01:06:50 pm »

one doubt, using the oscilloscope, be it, rigol, siglent, hantek, on average one hour a day, always taking precaution not to demand it beyond its limits which is on average useful life, since I see people who have the rigol ds1054z since 2015 and it works perfect. Or it's like my grandmother said to the one who gets the black leg, who will hold on.

in spanish

una duda, usando el osciloscopio, sea, rigol, siglent, hantek, en promedio una hora por dia, siempre teniendo precausion de no exigirlo mas alla de sus limites cual es en promedio la vida util, ya que veo gente que tienen el rigol ds1054z desde el año 2015 y le funciona perfecto.O es como decia mi abuela al que le toca la pata negra, que se aguante.

metrologist · « **Reply #21 on:** September 17, 2018, 07:57:48 pm »

Quote from: realitycomputer on September 16, 2018, 09:40:21 pm

Xrunner - Yes, I have tried "Self Calibration"
It appears to run, but then just hangs with the first blue part of the progress bar stuck. (the blue section that pops up immediately)

It may not be related to the self cal, as I assume you were running it to correct this problem, but has it ever finished since? What happens if you shut the scope off before it finishes? It takes a long time to complete. How long did you wait when it seemed to hang?

Carrington · « **Reply #22 on:** September 17, 2018, 09:10:11 pm »

Have you tried to save as csv or wfrm and check what you got?

realitycomputer · « **Reply #23 on:** January 16, 2019, 08:42:17 pm »

Well, after being really disappointed at the sudden death of my oscilloscope, and getting nowhere with Rigol for weeks, I'm finally geared back up to have another look.

As to the last post...... It doesn't seem to want to let me write to the filesystem.
The buttons are grayed out (Save, etc) I will try it with a USB stick......
(I should be able to save to the internal storage though, shouldn't I ?

I've done a "factory reset" of software, via LAN.
I've done the "fifth key down" reset - back to Chinese language, etc.

So now I'm really hoping that some of you might like to throw in some ideas, or even test procedures I can follow.

As a re-cap, basically I am getting no traces at all on any of the four channels.
(see earlier pics)

I am just a beginner hobbyist and am out of my depth here!
But I am capable of carrying out tests and measurements!

Maybe someone has an open DS1054Z and could give me some measurements I could use as a comparison base?

What could possibly knock out all 4 inputs!??

I'd appreciate any help at all!
Thanks for any suggestions.

_Wim_ · « **Reply #24 on:** January 16, 2019, 09:16:37 pm »

Have you tried to change memory depth, switch to hires mode, dots mode, XY-mode and still no visible trace what to ever? Have you turned on any measurements? Do they display plausible data? Does the hardware frequency counter still display the correct data when you feed in a signal?

realitycomputer · « **Reply #25 on:** January 16, 2019, 10:14:47 pm »

Thanks for your input.

Yes, I have tried changing mem depth, etc. No difference.
I've tried switching to XY mode. No difference.
I've tried switching on "All Measurements" (?), where the table of everything comes up and it just shows a "blank" line, like "-" in all values.
I think the hardware frequency meter shows "<1Hz", iirc, and just that - no matter what.

Something appears to be blocking all 4 inputs, as if they've simply been disconnected from the machine.

Fungus · « **Reply #26 on:** January 16, 2019, 11:49:09 pm »

Even with no input it should still draw a flat trace if you press "single"

JFJ · « **Reply #27 on:** January 16, 2019, 11:54:11 pm »

Quote from: realitycomputer on September 16, 2018, 07:00:15 pm

I tried a reset by holding the 5th left side grey button in, during power up (resulting in changing to a Chinese language layout)

Several years ago, another forum member restored functionality to their DS1054Z (after a 5th button reset failed to help) using a method suggested by a Rigol distributor:

Quote from: JJalling on August 06, 2015, 08:05:13 pm

Ok, its fixed now. I inserted the USB-stick, and during power-on I repeatedly pressed the "Help" button on the scope. The scope booted and asked if I wanted to update the firmware. I pressed "Cancel" and the scope is now working again.

It might be worth a try, even though the fault with their DS1054Z was different (it would stick at the boot screen). The original thread is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/rigol-ds1054z-stuck-during-boot/

realitycomputer · « **Reply #28 on:** January 17, 2019, 02:19:19 am »

Thanks for the suggestions....

I have done a USB boot with a firmware update which installed fine.
I'll try the opt-out method suggested!

Just to re-iterate, everything appears to works fine, as in key presses, selecting various settings, etc, except there just aren't any traces!?

Fungus · « **Reply #29 on:** January 17, 2019, 06:21:23 am »

Upload a screenshot, let's see if we can spot anything.

realitycomputer · « **Reply #30 on:** January 17, 2019, 04:39:07 pm »

There's a couple of screen shots on page 1, and I'll take some more showing more selections....

Fungus · « **Reply #31 on:** January 17, 2019, 05:14:27 pm »

Like I said back in September: Take it apart, check the power supply voltages.

If they all look OK then maybe there's a bad solder joint somewhere, get your magnifying glass out.

Bud · « **Reply #32 on:** January 17, 2019, 05:38:51 pm »

Quote from: realitycomputer on January 16, 2019, 10:14:47 pm

Something appears to be blocking all 4 inputs, as if they've simply been disconnected from the machine. :-

The ADC, its clock or its power supply.

realitycomputer · « **Reply #33 on:** January 18, 2019, 01:39:29 am »

Quote from: Fungus on January 17, 2019, 05:14:27 pm

Like I said back in September: Take it apart, check the power supply voltages.

If they all look OK then maybe there's a bad solder joint somewhere, get your magnifying glass out.

Yes, I'd been avoiding having to resort to that, as it's only 18 months old, with around 20 hours usage !
I think it's got about 10 hours or so left on the trial features.
I bought it long before I really needed it!

I ended up returning it to the dealer. They took about 3 weeks, 3 people asking for my details via email, etc, before arranging a collection.
Then they contacted me to say someone might have "hacked the firmware" so they don't want to know..........
It then took around 5 weeks for them to return it.

Since then I've put it up for a while, feeling extremely pi**ed off about it all.
Been trying to decide what to do.
Eventually, I thought I'd check back here and try again to see if I could find any help\clues!

At this point, I suppose I'm just going to have to do whatever I can.....
I am only a beginner hobbyist and it's my first scope, to learn with.

Quote from: PeDre on January 17, 2019, 05:31:48 pm

Can you load the default settings and activate all four channels, then save the settings to a USB stick and upload them here?

Ok, thanks for that. I'll do it......

Bud · « **Reply #34 on:** January 18, 2019, 01:50:26 am »

Ok so you have learned how much you can trust cheap chinese shit. Not a bad outcome.

blacksheeplogic · « **Reply #35 on:** January 18, 2019, 02:11:02 am »

Quote from: realitycomputer on January 18, 2019, 01:39:29 am

I ended up returning it to the dealer. They took about 3 weeks, 3 people asking for my details via email, etc, before arranging a collection.
Then they contacted me to say someone might have "hacked the firmware" so they don't want to know..........

Since then I've put it up for a while, feeling extremely pi**ed off about it all.

You are pi**ed that after stealing upgrade Licenses from Rigol they declined your request for service?

realitycomputer · « **Reply #36 on:** January 18, 2019, 02:19:03 am »

Quote from: blacksheeplogic on January 18, 2019, 02:11:02 am

Quote from: realitycomputer on January 18, 2019, 01:39:29 am
I ended up returning it to the dealer. They took about 3 weeks, 3 people asking for my details via email, etc, before arranging a collection.
Then they contacted me to say someone might have "hacked the firmware" so they don't want to know..........

Since then I've put it up for a while, feeling extremely pi**ed off about it all.

You are pi**ed that after stealing upgrade Licenses from Rigol they declined your request for service?

I think you might have mis-read something?
I haven't even used up the trial time yet!
They are of the opinion that its had a hacked firmware loaded onto it.
This is complete rubbish. I'm only just starting to learn a bit about electronics. I'm not a firmware hacker!! LOL!
Before they got the machine they sent me a firmware to put on it, which I did, successfully ! So, it's their own firmware that's on it anyway!

But anyway,thanks for your constructive help.

realitycomputer · « **Reply #37 on:** January 18, 2019, 02:23:41 am »

Quote from: Bud on January 18, 2019, 01:50:26 am

Ok so you have learned how much you can trust cheap chinese shit. Not a bad outcome.

Yep, I followed the sheep and went for the Rigol

It appeared to be a well recommended beginners scope....

But anyway, I don't suppose there's a simple way to test the ADC, is there!?

tsman · « **Reply #38 on:** January 18, 2019, 02:32:34 am »

Nothing wrong with buying "Chinese shit" if you pick well and a modern Rigol is usually a good pick. Agilent have rebadged Rigol scopes. LeCroy have done joint development with Siglent on scopes. Your scope is a generally well recommended reliable scope so I don't know why it has failed in such a strange way.

Whoever your distributor is seems to be clueless if they're denying warranty service for a hack you've not even done.

realitycomputer · « **Reply #39 on:** January 18, 2019, 02:54:33 am »

Yes, I think they're simply avoiding dealing with returns. It took weeks of emails to arrange the return.
I have noticed their stock levels dwindling, too.
They were extremely evasive about explaining exactly what they meant.

I bought it when starting out with my new hobby, long before I needed or understood it at all!
I got in maybe 20 hours usage last summer. That was an expensive 20 hours of playing around!

blacksheeplogic · « **Reply #40 on:** January 18, 2019, 03:12:58 am »

Quote from: realitycomputer on January 18, 2019, 02:19:03 am

I think you might have mis-read something?
I haven't even used up the trial time yet!
They are of the opinion that its had a hacked firmware loaded onto it.

Inn that case I apologize, I understand there attitude if you sent it in with hacked FW but since this is not the case you really need to push for a resolution with Rigol directly and name the distributor so people know who to avoid. Legally they have to honor the warranty and Rigol is not a no-name brand anymore, I would expect them to stand behind their products to maintain a good brand image.

realitycomputer · « **Reply #41 on:** January 18, 2019, 03:18:13 am »

I've tested the disconnected power supply.

Some of the voltages are a bit off, but I'm not sure if it's common, or because it's not under load....

The 6.3v is a little high.
The -7.5v is a little low.

All in all, I suppose it's ok.

Below is a table of the socket layout. I'll put it here for my own reference, as much as anything. I lose pieces of paper!
xxx = expected value
(xxx) = actual value

Gnd	Gnd
-17.5 (17.41)	FAN (0)
6.3 (6.89)	6.3 (6.89)
FAN (10.15)	-7.5 (-6.86)
17.5 (17.50)	AC Trig (0)
5V5A (5.08)	5V5A (5.08)
Gnd	Gnd

Should I expect anything on the AC trig ??

realitycomputer · « **Reply #42 on:** January 18, 2019, 03:26:35 am »

Quote from: blacksheeplogic on January 18, 2019, 03:12:58 am

........................you really need to push for a resolution with Rigol directly ..............................

This is why I've sat on it over the Christmas/ New Year period, contemplating what to do.
I suppose I kept hoping I would discover on here that it was something simple that I could easily fix!

I've opened it up this evening, so I've "invalidated" the warranty, as some manufacturers would have us believe!
So now it's onward and upward!

Fungus · « **Reply #43 on:** January 18, 2019, 07:59:35 am »

Quote from: Bud on January 18, 2019, 01:50:26 am

Ok so you have learned how much you can trust cheap chinese shit. Not a bad outcome.

Haters gonna hate, I guess.

Are the forums full of people with broken Rigols? Nope. Build quality is excellent on these.

Fungus · « **Reply #44 on:** January 18, 2019, 08:01:41 am »

Quote from: realitycomputer on January 18, 2019, 02:54:33 am

Yes, I think they're simply avoiding dealing with returns. It took weeks of emails to arrange the return.
I have noticed their stock levels dwindling, too.
They were extremely evasive about explaining exactly what they meant.

Sounds like a dodgy dealer to me. Who are they? Name and shame.

If they're an authorized dealer then Rigol needs to know.

JohnPen · « **Reply #45 on:** January 18, 2019, 09:53:22 am »

A possible alternative approach to your problem, that sometimes locates 'dry' solder' joints, is localised temperature cycling. As you have already opened the case you can access the main PCB. With the scope powered up try heating up areas of the main PCB with a hairdryer or hot air gun and then use 'arctic spray' on individual ICs to freeze them down again. Temperature cycling the main PCB/ICs a few times may help show up a poor solder joint. Don't overdo the heat though you don't want to melt anything. If the trace returns then try to localise which component area is causing the problem. If you are lucky this may locate a 'dry joint' if unlucky a faulty IC. I once had an IC regularly fail when it went above 50 C which recovered when below 50 C it was just like a thermostat. If this doesn't work power down the scope and move on to using a magnifier to do a detailed inspection of the solder joints on the ICs (particularly the larger ones with multiple pins). Hopefully you will locate a poor joint and a resolder will solve the problem. A few years back Dave did a tear down video of the DS1054Z which may prove useful in locating the different functions of the scope on the PCB.

Best of luck.
John

Fungus · « **Reply #46 on:** January 18, 2019, 10:06:11 am »

Quote from: JohnPen on January 18, 2019, 09:53:22 am

A possible alternative approach to your problem, that sometimes locates 'dry' solder' joints, is localised temperature cycling. As you have already opened the case you can access the main PCB. With the scope powered up try heating up areas of the main PCB with a hairdryer or hot air gun

Yep. If it worked before then stopped working then it could be the difference between summer and winter.

Localized warming could narrow it down.

Gandalf_Sr · « **Reply #47 on:** January 18, 2019, 04:10:52 pm »

If you bought it on a credit card, you have double the manufacturers warranty. Call VISA or Mastercard and ask for help. Then you can pay Rigol to fix it and have the CC company reimburse you.

I have used this route successfully when suppliers or OEMs won't honor warranties.


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Author Topic: DS1054z No waveform on any channel (Read 7286 times)

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