DS1054Z record mode and serial decode

[xyzzy]

Greetings!

I'm in the process of debugging some SPI code using my DS1054Z.  The serial decode feature works ok (seems to work only on data displayed on-screen rather than on full memory depth, but that's not holding me back this time), but when I tried to use the record (aka segmented memory) function to capture SPI packets, I discovered that I can't use record and serial decode at the same time.  Whenever one is enabled, the option to enable the other is grayed out!

Is this a PEBKAC error, or is it really impossible to have the scope tell me the contents of the packets it just collected?  Segmented memory is of limited value if I have to decipher all the bits in each packet manually.

Please let me know if anyone can recreate this bug(?) or if I'm just doing it wrong.

Thanks!

[ebclr]

Take a look on this linkl

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Rigol_DS1000Z_series

[CustomEngineerer]

Don't have a DS1000Z so can't directly answer your question, however the DS2000A that I have does allow decoding on segmented memory, however it also allows decoding on the full memory, not just whats on screen like the DS1000Z. My guess would be this is intentional to help make the more expensive models more appealing. If the cheapest line did everything the more expensive scopes did, nobody would bother buying their more expensive lines (though have a feeling this pretty much happens to Rigol anyways). Seriously doubt this is just a bug.

[Karel]

One option is to use the "Wave Inspector" of DSRemote. That way you can use SPI-decoding using the whole 24Ms on your pc.
You can zoom in and out and scroll through the whole buffer with serial decoding enabled.

[H.O]

I don't have a 1054Z and I might be stating the obvious but just in case, here goes:
You say that one option is disabled as soon the other is enabled. To me that sounds like you're trying to capture AND decode segments at the same time. But what if you capture data into segmented memory first and THEN enable the decoder as you "browse thru" the captured segments?

Or perhaps that is what you're already doing in which case I applogize.

[Karel]

Here's a video that demonstrates a way to do serial decoding with a DS1054Z using full memory:

https://youtu.be/r2UFd0fJLU4

[mos6502]

I just ran into the same freaking problem with my DS1054Z. This is bullshit. First the stupid serial decode only works on a single screen. Then they obviously deliberately block what would be a way around that limitation. Also, saving CSV data only works on a single screen as well. Why the hell do I have all this memory if I can't do anything with it? Fuck you, Rigol. Luckily, I can still send this POS back for a refund.

Yeah, I tried DSRemote. It's slow and the decoding only produces garbage, it's even worse than the scope's internal decoding.

[Fungus]

Yeah, I tried DSRemote.

But have you tried sigrok?

...or one of those $6 logic analyzers off eBay. If you'd asked anybody here they'd have told you about the limitations of DS1054Z serial decode for large amounts of data.

[mos6502]

I haven't tried sigrok. I've had one of those Saleae clone LAs for years. It's cool, it works. But the scope is supposed to be able to do that. I mean Rigol is actually selling those decode options. They're not cheap. Considering the Siglent SDS1104X-E is able to do the decoding properly, combined with other improvements like better multi-channel sample rate, I'm seriously considering dropping the extra 100 eurobucks and getting that one.

[Mechatrommer]

I just ran into the same freaking problem with my DS1054Z. This is bullshit. First the stupid serial decode only works on a single screen. Then they obviously deliberately block what would be a way around that limitation. Also, saving CSV data only works on a single screen as well. Why the hell do I have all this memory if I can't do anything with it? Fuck you, Rigol. Luckily, I can still send this POS back for a refund.

Yeah, I tried DSRemote. It's slow and the decoding only produces garbage, it's even worse than the scope's internal decoding.

long memory 8bit analog has other uses, mainly its advertised feature as a 'dso'. You may return your rigol and get siglent for better decoding, then again for us its not a clear winner. Rigol excel in something other brand doesnt..

[tautech]

I just ran into the same freaking problem with my DS1054Z. This is bullshit. First the stupid serial decode only works on a single screen. Then they obviously deliberately block what would be a way around that limitation. Also, saving CSV data only works on a single screen as well. Why the hell do I have all this memory if I can't do anything with it? Fuck you, Rigol. Luckily, I can still send this POS back for a refund.

Yeah, I tried DSRemote. It's slow and the decoding only produces garbage, it's even worse than the scope's internal decoding.

long memory 8bit analog has other uses, mainly its advertised feature as a 'dso'. You may return your rigol and get siglent for better decoding, then again for us its not a clear winner. Rigol excel in something other brand doesnt..

I'll bite.

Pluses ?

[metrologist]

Take a look on this linkl

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Rigol_DS1000Z_series

Is that new? It does not say what version of sigrok supports it, and it did not seem to say that it supports DS1104Z.

I tried PulseView and connect with USB, and when I click scan, nothing happens (the button changes color, yay!).

I also seem to recall trying to install some driver. It was weird and then totally broke any communication I once had with my Rigol (using ultrasigma, etc).

My scope connects to my PC and I have a USB Instrument device from IVI foundation.

sigrok does not work.

edit: I just downloaded the nightly build and same same 

I also remember looking at the menu, it zadag, and that thing had me hose up my SDR too...

[Fungus]

I've had one of those Saleae clone LAs for years. It's cool, it works.

SO why are you messing about with a DS1054Z?

But the scope is supposed to be able to do that.

Says who?

The DS1054Z decodes serial data perfectly, just not in the way you expected it to.

The limitations are no secret. There's a hundred posts and entire threads on here dedicated to them.

eg. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-rs232-decoding/

Considering the Siglent SDS1104X-E is able to do the decoding properly

Says who?
a) It might not do what you think it does, either.
b) Twisty knobs and buttons are simply the wrong paradigm for large amounts of serial decoding. eg. Setting up serial triggering or searching for data in along transmission is a couple of clicks on a PC but a total pain in the ass on an oscilloscope. That's ANY oscilloscope, not just a DS1054Z.

(unless you get a super expensive one with mouse/keyboard, obviously).

Bottom line: Use your scope's serial decoding feature to make sure the signals are present/correct. Use your $6 USB logic analyzer to process/decode large amounts of data.

[Fungus]

I also seem to recall trying to install some driver. It was weird and then totally broke any communication I once had with my Rigol (using ultrasigma, etc).

My heart and prayers are with you. I hope you recover soon.

The DS1054Z doesn't actually need any drivers to work. Putting that 500Mb "driver" in the DS1054Z's box isn't doing anybody any favors.

(It's a bit like the CDs you get with printers, the only sane way to use them is as a frisbee or to scare birds away).

[Gandalf_Sr]

I own a DS1054Z but I've also worked with Agilent and Tektronix scopes that had serial decoding. The simple fact is that scopes are not the right tool to decode yards of serial message data -  Being able to trigger off specific packets is useful but really the role of the scope is to see that the waveform/voltages are correct and that every part of the SPI/I2C/UART system is responding correctly.
Once you've got the basic ability to send packets between devices done then you're much better off using a logic probe like the Saleae Logic 8/16.

[Bob Sava]

With digital scopes it does not have to be that way.  If oscilloscope can can share it's deep memory with sigrok (via LXI tools), which SDS1104X-E is supposed to do in near future, you get capable 4 lead LA. 

[JPortici]

while that is true, i also want to be able to zoom in and out because i want to see the bigger picture.. or a detail. I also want to not become crazy if i want to time-correlate the serial bus with other analog waveforms.
of course doing this with the rigol 1000 is impossible  highly impractical.
move the horizontal and some part of the signal goes off screen? decoded data become garbage
zoom out so it can't decode from pixels anymore? decoded data become garbage

[Fungus]

With digital scopes it does not have to be that way.  If oscilloscope can can share it's deep memory with sigrok (via LXI tools), which SDS1104X-E is supposed to do in near future, you get capable 4 lead LA.

You can download all DS1054Z memory today.

Use ":WAVeform:DATA?" command. I assume Sigrok can do that.

[Karel]

Yep, the video posted above shows that it's possible. It's just annoying that downloading the internal memory takes so much time.

[metrologist]

I also seem to recall trying to install some driver. It was weird and then totally broke any communication I once had with my Rigol (using ultrasigma, etc).

My heart and prayers are with you. I hope you recover soon.

The DS1054Z doesn't actually need any drivers to work. Putting that 500Mb "driver" in the DS1054Z's box isn't doing anybody any favors.

(It's a bit like the CDs you get with printers, the only sane way to use them is as a frisbee or to scare birds away).

Well, thanks for helping me figure it all out. Time will heal all wounds. Nice new shiny things help too...

[JPortici]

Yep, the video posted above shows that it's possible. It's just annoying that downloading the internal memory takes so much time.

yep. better use a scope that does it on its own

[Gandalf_Sr]

You could get this one on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-DSOZ634A-Oscilloscope-63-GHz-160-GSa-S-4-channel-Agilent-/192507981698?hash=item2cd25eaf82

You'll save nearly $226,000 but I'm not sure it does decoding though.

[Bob Sava]

Siglent SD1104X-E is 10x faster than SD1054z (using LXI tools) so I'm counting that it'll also be 10x faster with Sigrok when supported.

[Fungus]

Yep, the video posted above shows that it's possible. It's just annoying that downloading the internal memory takes so much time.

You need better software. It's possible to grab data about twice as fast as in that video:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ethernet-transfer-speed-for-rigol-ds2072a-and-ds4014/msg1087482/#msg1087482

[Karel]

Yep, the video posted above shows that it's possible. It's just annoying that downloading the internal memory takes so much time.

You need better software. It's possible to grab data about twice as fast as in that video:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ethernet-transfer-speed-for-rigol-ds2072a-and-ds4014/msg1087482/#msg1087482

That test doesn't follow Rigols' programming guide. There could be a reason why the Rigol engineers created
those long timeouts between packets. Possible buffer underruns could be one of them.
Nice if you are trying to trace down some strange artefact and after hours or days you discover it's the software that reads
the data from your scope.

[metrologist]

overclock the scope 

[TD-Linux]

I also recommend sigrok. Pulseview recently got a feature to interpret analog channels as digital ones from the GUI, so you can use all the normal decoders with a 1054Z's four analog channels.

The internal decoders in the Rigol are basically worthless for any transaction longer than two bytes. If you want on-screen decoders, pick a different brand of scope.

[abraxa]

I tried PulseView and connect with USB, and when I click scan, nothing happens (the button changes color, yay!).

I also seem to recall trying to install some driver. It was weird and then totally broke any communication I once had with my Rigol (using ultrasigma, etc).

My scope connects to my PC and I have a USB Instrument device from IVI foundation.

sigrok does not work.

edit: I just downloaded the nightly build and same same 

I also remember looking at the menu, it zadag, and that thing had me hose up my SDR too...

It's unfortunate you're having such a bad experience with sigrok. Frankly, it's the result of no one stepping up help us support Windows better - our core devs all use linux and supporting Windows is sufficiently difficult enough that we're happy we have it running there at all. The fact that we need to rely on Zadig for driver management already says a lot. To me, it honestly feels more like a hack than a seamless user experience. We want Windows users to have a good time using sigrok as well but without dedicated Windows users willing to help improve the situation, I don't see anything changing, unfortunately.

That said, you should have better luck connecting to the scope via Ethernet (use port 5555 and VXI).

[CustomEngineerer]

The internal decoders in the Rigol are basically worthless for any transaction longer than two bytes. If you want on-screen decoders, pick a different brand of scope.

Rigol scopes decode data from memory just fine, except for their cheapest line (DS1000Z). DS2000 and up can, and also works with segmented memory.

Edit: I realize this thread is specifically about the DS1000Z model, my comment is specifically for the "If you want on-screen decoders, pick a different brand of scope." comment. You don't have to pick a different brand, just don't get the cheapest line if thats whats important to you.

[Karel]

The internal decoders in the Rigol are basically worthless for any transaction longer than two bytes.

Can you explain why two bytes only? Have a look at the pictures, I count 25 bytes from a serial port at 115K2...

[Fungus]

The internal decoders in the Rigol are basically worthless for any transaction longer than two bytes.

a) Not true.
b) Even looking at one byte can be useful when you're looking for problems in the electronics.

The internal decoders in the Rigol are basically worthless for any transaction longer than two bytes. If you want on-screen decoders, pick a different brand of scope.

Is there another brand which is better for the same price as a DS1054Z? (Answer: "No")

Is there a more expensive Rigol which is better? (Answer: "Yes")

So... it's not really about branding, is it?

[Gandalf_Sr]

Here's a video that demonstrates a way to do serial decoding with a DS1054Z using full memory:...

Karel, what software are you running in that demo?  It doesn't look like it's Rigol's Ultrascope, at least not from comparing your video to the pdf on Rigol's Ultrascope Getting Started Guide at the bottom of this page... https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/1000z/

Thanks

[nctnico]

The internal decoders in the Rigol are basically worthless for any transaction longer than two bytes.

Can you explain why two bytes only? Have a look at the pictures, I count 25 bytes from a serial port at 115K2...

Now try to zoom in on a timing problem with the 5th byte of an I2C or CAN bus message. It won't work on a scope which decodes only what is on screen because once the start of the message goes off-screen the decoding is gone. Been there, done that.

[Karel]

Here's a video that demonstrates a way to do serial decoding with a DS1054Z using full memory:...

Karel, what software are you running in that demo?  It doesn't look like it's Rigol's Ultrascope, at least not from comparing your video to the pdf on Rigol's Ultrascope Getting Started Guide at the bottom of this page... https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/1000z/

Thanks

You can find it here: https://www.teuniz.net/DSRemote/

[Karel]

The internal decoders in the Rigol are basically worthless for any transaction longer than two bytes.

Can you explain why two bytes only? Have a look at the pictures, I count 25 bytes from a serial port at 115K2...

Now try to zoom in on a timing problem with the 5th byte of an I2C or CAN bus message. It won't work on a scope which decodes only what is on screen because once the start of the message goes off-screen the decoding is gone. Been there, done that.

We all know that zoom-in isn't going to work because when the visible trace doesn't start between two bytes,
the decoding goes into limbo. It's a well known limitation of the DS1000Z series.

If you really need to zoom-in and you don't want to spend more money for a better scope,
you can use software to download the internal memory and do the decoding ofline as shown in the above video.
And yes, that procedure is slow.

[Gandalf_Sr]

Karel,

Looks like that's a Linux-only program, right?  Is there some preferred virtual Linux platform that I can run on a Windows 10 64 bit PC that supports it?

Thanks

[Karel]

Looks like that's a Linux-only program, right?  Is there some preferred virtual Linux platform that I can run on a Windows 10 64 bit PC that supports it?

It should work on Mint, Opensuse, Fedora, Ubuntu, etc. Have a look at the compile instructions.

I never tried it myself but if you are in a hurry, you could try a virtualbox image from https://www.osboxes.org/linux-mint/
which will get you up and running quickly (at least in theory).

[snoopy]

I just ran into the same freaking problem with my DS1054Z. This is bullshit. First the stupid serial decode only works on a single screen. Then they obviously deliberately block what would be a way around that limitation. Also, saving CSV data only works on a single screen as well. Why the hell do I have all this memory if I can't do anything with it? Fuck you, Rigol. Luckily, I can still send this POS back for a refund.

Yeah, I tried DSRemote. It's slow and the decoding only produces garbage, it's even worse than the scope's internal decoding.

Yes I came across this limitation myself when trying to decode a long string of SPI packets. Scope is pretty much useless. I ended up intuitively guessing what the issue was but for the future I ordered a Kingst USB logic analyzer with heaps of memory and speed. http://www.qdkingst.com/en/products/LA5016

cheers

[snoopy]

The internal decoders in the Rigol are basically worthless for any transaction longer than two bytes.

Can you explain why two bytes only? Have a look at the pictures, I count 25 bytes from a serial port at 115K2...

Now try to zoom in on a timing problem with the 5th byte of an I2C or CAN bus message. It won't work on a scope which decodes only what is on screen because once the start of the message goes off-screen the decoding is gone. Been there, done that.

Yep that's the other problem. The scope gets its knickers in a not when the complete packet is not being displayed on the screen so you end up trying to squeeze it in and then all of the symbol information can't be displayed because there is not enough room. Bit of a toy

[Gandalf_Sr]

I just ran into the same freaking problem with my DS1054Z. This is bullshit. First the stupid serial decode only works on a single screen. Then they obviously deliberately block what would be a way around that limitation. Also, saving CSV data only works on a single screen as well. Why the hell do I have all this memory if I can't do anything with it? Fuck you, Rigol. Luckily, I can still send this POS back for a refund.

Yeah, I tried DSRemote. It's slow and the decoding only produces garbage, it's even worse than the scope's internal decoding.

Yes I came across this limitation myself when trying to decode a long string of SPI packets. Scope is pretty much useless. I ended up intuitively guessing what the issue was but for the future I ordered a Kingst USB logic analyzer with heaps of memory and speed. http://www.qdkingst.com/en/products/LA5016

cheers

I do feel that the original complaint is like saying, "hey I bought this POS Ford Fiesta but it won't keep up with my friend's Ferrari, fuck you Ford!"  I knew the limitations when I paid my $300 for my DS1054Z and I don't feel at all cheated by Rigol.

I could make a large piece of desk art out of all the cheap clone logic sniffers and serial interfaces I've bought that were junk; intuitive software that just works is what you need and, to that end, I'd recommend going up to $399 and getting a Saleae Logic 8 - you'll also get 180 day return option and 3 year warranty.  If you really can't afford that then there are clones that work with Saleae's software but some say they Saleae are taking steps to stop their software working with non-Saleae hardware.

[snoopy]

I just ran into the same freaking problem with my DS1054Z. This is bullshit. First the stupid serial decode only works on a single screen. Then they obviously deliberately block what would be a way around that limitation. Also, saving CSV data only works on a single screen as well. Why the hell do I have all this memory if I can't do anything with it? Fuck you, Rigol. Luckily, I can still send this POS back for a refund.

Yeah, I tried DSRemote. It's slow and the decoding only produces garbage, it's even worse than the scope's internal decoding.

Yes I came across this limitation myself when trying to decode a long string of SPI packets. Scope is pretty much useless. I ended up intuitively guessing what the issue was but for the future I ordered a Kingst USB logic analyzer with heaps of memory and speed. http://www.qdkingst.com/en/products/LA5016

cheers

I do feel that the original complaint is like saying, "hey I bought this POS Ford Fiesta but it won't keep up with my friend's Ferrari, fuck you Ford!"  I knew the limitations when I paid my $300 for my DS1054Z and I don't feel at all cheated by Rigol.

I could make a large piece of desk art out of all the cheap clone logic sniffers and serial interfaces I've bought that were junk; intuitive software that just works is what you need and, to that end, I'd recommend going up to $399 and getting a Saleae Logic 8 - you'll also get 180 day return option and 3 year warranty.  If you really can't afford that then there are clones that work with Saleae's software but some say they Saleae are taking steps to stop their software working with non-Saleae hardware.

Not quire correct. I bought this scope because of its supposed serial decode capability that was espoused in many of the reviews of it. It wasn't until I used it in situ that I came across its limitations that none of the reviewers really touched on. But having said that it is still a keeper and bang for the buck you still can't beat it

cheers

[Fungus]

I do feel that the original complaint is like saying, "hey I bought this POS Ford Fiesta but it won't keep up with my friend's Ferrari, fuck you Ford!"  I knew the limitations when I paid my $300 for my DS1054Z and I don't feel at all cheated by Rigol.

I've wanted to use a car analogy for the DS1054Z for ages but I can't seem to think of one that doesn't make it sound bad.

nb. You can't fit much shopping in the back of a Ferrari. A Ford fiesta is way more practical.

Not quire correct. I bought this scope because of its supposed serial decode capability that was espoused in many of the reviews of it. It wasn't until I used it in situ that I came across its limitations that none of the reviewers really touched on.

It's weird that nobody knows where to ask questions about the serial decode before purchase, but everybody knows where to go to complain afterwards. 

But having said that it is still a keeper and bang for the buck you still can't beat it

Yep. I will defend it to death at this price point.

It has its flaws but, for looking a wiggly lines on screen? Awesome value for money. The difference between owning a DS1054Z and not owning one is night/day. Spending your life complaining because you bought a Honda Civic but it can't fit a sofa in the back is just silly, step back look at what you actually got for your money.

But yeah, if you need to carry sofas then you need something bigger (and right from the start you should have told the salesman that that's what you needed!)

[BravoV]

It's weird that nobody knows where to ask questions about the serial decode before purchase, but everybody knows where to go to complain afterwards. 

C'mon Fungus, you've seen too many already, its never about technical, let alone the scope.

Its called venting out, to be precise, a social activity/stuff. 

[Mechatrommer]

I bought this scope because of its supposed serial decode capability that was espoused in many of the reviews of it.

why buy a "DSO" for serial decode? bad decision...

...Scope is pretty much useless. I ended up intuitively guessing what the issue was but for the future I ordered a Kingst USB logic analyzer...

you should've done this first. when you need analog signal probing, then you can get a "DSO" later, but well, its too late already...

[ttelectronic]

I just ran into the same freaking problem with my DS1054Z. This is bullshit. First the stupid serial decode only works on a single screen. Then they obviously deliberately block what would be a way around that limitation. Also, saving CSV data only works on a single screen as well. Why the hell do I have all this memory if I can't do anything with it? Fuck you, Rigol. Luckily, I can still send this POS back for a refund.

Yeah, I tried DSRemote. It's slow and the decoding only produces garbage, it's even worse than the scope's internal decoding.

I was bashing my head against the wall, but if you set the mem depth manually it will will be accurate. If left on auto it will indeed produce useless results.

[luma]

If all you're trying to do is capture serial data... why not just use a UART?  Why does a scope enter into this at all?  You probably already have them on-hand, your OS probably comes with software to handle it, and you can log/search data easily.  I could understand if you were dealing with some esoteric data protocol, but RS-232?  You haven't needed a logic analyzer or scope etc to do that since the dawn of personal computing.

[nctnico]

If all you're trying to do is capture serial data... why not just use a UART?  Why does a scope enter into this at all?

If you have problems with the signal levels. And while you are at it: it helps to see the data. I don't know about any PC based tool which can capture & timestamp serial data in a really easy way. Lots of the tools are slapped together quickly with a user interface only the developer understands. Using an oscilloscope is just much easier.

[luma]

If you have problems with the signal levels. And while you are at it: it helps to see the data. I don't know about any PC based tool which can capture & timestamp serial data in a really easy way. Lots of the tools are slapped together quickly with a user interface only the developer understands. Using an oscilloscope is just much easier.

If you have a problem with signal quality (levels, noise, etc) then of course a scope is the answer.  However, you don't need decode to tell you that outside of using it as a trigger, something the Rigol handles well enough.  Outside of triggering, the decode on the scope itself doesn't help at all with dodgy signals - whether the scope is or isn't able to decode a particular signal bears little significance, the real test is if your device can decode it, and the scope isn't going to tell you that.  Let the scope do the analog stuff and use digital tools for the digital stuff.  For 232 it couldn't be easier, it's the most widely-supported digital protocol in the world and there are loads of tools available to help you out there.

[nctnico]

If you have problems with the signal levels. And while you are at it: it helps to see the data. I don't know about any PC based tool which can capture & timestamp serial data in a really easy way. Lots of the tools are slapped together quickly with a user interface only the developer understands. Using an oscilloscope is just much easier.

If you have a problem with signal quality (levels, noise, etc) then of course a scope is the answer.  However, you don't need decode to tell you that outside of using it as a trigger, something the Rigol handles well enough.  Outside of triggering, the decode on the scope itself doesn't help at all with dodgy signals - whether the scope is or isn't able to decode a particular signal bears little significance, the real test is if your device can decode it, and the scope isn't going to tell you that.  Let the scope do the analog stuff and use digital tools for the digital stuff.  For 232 it couldn't be easier, it's the most widely-supported digital protocol in the world and there are loads of tools available to help you out there.

Like I wrote before: a lot of these tools suck. I'm still using Hyperterminal which came with XP or Win2k because despite it's crappyness in the end it has the most useful features (for example opening/closing the serial port without needing to close the program or going through lots of menus).