Author Topic: DSO Reliability  (Read 86793 times)

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Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #175 on: November 25, 2014, 09:05:38 pm »
To say that cal data can be lost implies that backup wasn't possible?  What about modern DSOs?  If they allow firmware updates via the USB port, I certainly hope they also allow a full backup of all internal data prior to attempting the update....  Yes?

I can't speak for other scopes but on LeCroy Windows scopes the cal data is on the hard drive and can easily be backed up to USB stick/CD/DVD/cloud storage/wherever.

On the older scopes which run VxWorks instead of Windows (WaveRunner/WaveRunner2/WavePro 900) the cal data won't be lost when the lithium backup battery dies (the scope will just refuse to boot until the battery has been replaced).

Presumably Rigol scopes are similar -- can someone verify this?
 

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #176 on: November 25, 2014, 11:04:57 pm »
To say that cal data can be lost implies that backup wasn't possible?  What about modern DSOs?  If they allow firmware updates via the USB port, I certainly hope they also allow a full backup of all internal data prior to attempting the update....  Yes?

I can't speak for other scopes but on LeCroy Windows scopes the cal data is on the hard drive and can easily be backed up to USB stick/CD/DVD/cloud storage/wherever.

On the older scopes which run VxWorks instead of Windows (WaveRunner/WaveRunner2/WavePro 900) the cal data won't be lost when the lithium backup battery dies (the scope will just refuse to boot until the battery has been replaced).

Presumably Rigol scopes are similar -- can someone verify this?
I don't beleive so.
Modern compact DSO's do not have hard drives and will store their cal data in non volatile Ram/Rom.
It is VERY important that the Firmware upgrade procedure be followed exactly and best if the DSO is powered via a UPS in case of loss of mains power while upgrading.
A small inverter could also be used for the same insurance against mains power loss.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #177 on: November 26, 2014, 06:28:00 am »
I can't speak for other scopes but on LeCroy Windows scopes the cal data is on the hard drive and can easily be backed up to USB stick/CD/DVD/cloud storage/wherever.

On the older scopes which run VxWorks instead of Windows (WaveRunner/WaveRunner2/WavePro 900) the cal data won't be lost when the lithium backup battery dies (the scope will just refuse to boot until the battery has been replaced).

Presumably Rigol scopes are similar

I doubt it. As tautech says these scopes don't have hard drives, and on most of these scopes the cal data is held in battery buffered NVRAMs.
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #178 on: November 26, 2014, 07:21:37 pm »
I can't speak for other scopes but on LeCroy Windows scopes the cal data is on the hard drive and can easily be backed up to USB stick/CD/DVD/cloud storage/wherever.

On the older scopes which run VxWorks instead of Windows (WaveRunner/WaveRunner2/WavePro 900) the cal data won't be lost when the lithium backup battery dies (the scope will just refuse to boot until the battery has been replaced).

Presumably Rigol scopes are similar

I doubt it. As tautech says these scopes don't have hard drives, and on most of these scopes the cal data is held in battery buffered NVRAMs.

My question was based on what's typical for modern computer motherboards.  Before updating the BIOS/EUFI, there is an option to first backup the old firmware "just in case" anything untoward occurs.  I'm surprised firmware backup isn't standard with DSOs as well.
 

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #179 on: November 26, 2014, 07:45:13 pm »
One could get the current firmware when you get a DSO and save it for "just in case".
However not all manufacturers have their firmware "freely available".
Then when new firmware is available you would have something "on hand" to fall back to if required.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #180 on: November 26, 2014, 11:15:33 pm »
My question was based on what's typical for modern computer motherboards.  Before updating the BIOS/EUFI, there is an option to first backup the old firmware "just in case" anything untoward occurs.  I'm surprised firmware backup isn't standard with DSOs as well.

Why should it be? The problem with scopes is calibration data, not the firmware (which for most scopes can be downloaded from the manufacturer website anyways).

Even with PCs it doesn't make much sense to save the old BIOS version, as again most current and previous BIOS binaries can simply be downloaded from the manufacturer website. And at least with brand name systems (HP, Dell, Lenovo) BIOS updates don't create a backup of the old BIOS version anyways. It's just pointless.
 

Offline TunerSandwich

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #181 on: November 27, 2014, 12:12:27 am »
I find it strange that one would be concerned about scope "reliability", but then want to "hack" it  :-//
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Offline coppice

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #182 on: November 27, 2014, 01:13:45 am »
I find it strange that one would be concerned about scope "reliability", but then want to "hack" it  :-//
Reliability becomes more important after hacking, as you've lost the support of a warranty.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #183 on: November 27, 2014, 07:16:59 am »
Reliability becomes more important after hacking, as you've lost the support of a warranty.
Assuming it can be turned on, and you can access the Options Menu, any hacked options can be undone.  :)
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #184 on: November 27, 2014, 05:36:49 pm »
My question was based on what's typical for modern computer motherboards.  Before updating the BIOS/EUFI, there is an option to first backup the old firmware "just in case" anything untoward occurs.  I'm surprised firmware backup isn't standard with DSOs as well.

Why should it be? The problem with scopes is calibration data, not the firmware (which for most scopes can be downloaded from the manufacturer website anyways).

Even with PCs it doesn't make much sense to save the old BIOS version, as again most current and previous BIOS binaries can simply be downloaded from the manufacturer website. And at least with brand name systems (HP, Dell, Lenovo) BIOS updates don't create a backup of the old BIOS version anyways. It's just pointless.

Actually this recent question began concerning whether hacking attempts can lock up ("brick") a scope in an irreversible way.  So I wanted to know if there is always a way to get back to where one first started.  No matter which firmware version is being used, old or new, the real worry is whether the scope can be so locked up that a firmware load or firmware reset can't be done.
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #185 on: November 27, 2014, 05:49:51 pm »
I find it strange that one would be concerned about scope "reliability", but then want to "hack" it  :-//

My original concern had to do with hardware reliability -- that is, component failure of some kind (thus the questions about dome keyboards, analogies to laptop life span, etc.).  If a user knew that hacking could be attempted with no chance of trashing the instrument, why not try it (as an experiment, if nothing else)?  OTOH, if there can be circumstances where a firmware reset or reload isn't possible, you are right, I would not think of trying a mod as has been mentioned here.  BTW, bear in mind where this came from -- someone suggested getting a 50 MHz DSO and hacking it to 100 MHz.  The only negative I've read so far about this had to do with the cal data being inappropriate for the new BW, but frankly, I wasn't sure whether this might be a second order problem.
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #186 on: November 27, 2014, 05:54:44 pm »
Reliability becomes more important after hacking, as you've lost the support of a warranty.
Assuming it can be turned on, and you can access the Options Menu, any hacked options can be undone.  :)

If that's the only way to do it, I would not try any sort of hacking -- it's too easy to see faulty firmware making the scope inoperative.
 

Offline kxenos

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #187 on: November 27, 2014, 06:04:35 pm »
I have a DSOX2004 for 18 months now. It recently came back from a repair (still under warranty). They said they replaced the "main board". They didn't give any other info. I haven't made any attempts to hack it due to moral reasons but I'm thinking that there is a chance they could figure out that a scope is hacked and deny to honor the warranty. Even if hacking a scope doesn't brick it, there's always a chance of a failure during warranty period.
This is the 1st T&M device that fails on me for 20y (and needs to be repaired by someone else) and it kind of ruined my bubble fantasy that modern devices of well-known manufacturers don't break like that.   :-\
 

Online tautech

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #188 on: November 27, 2014, 06:15:34 pm »
Actually this recent question began concerning whether hacking attempts can lock up ("brick") a scope in an irreversible way.  So I wanted to know if there is always a way to get back to where one first started.  No matter which firmware version is being used, old or new, the real worry is whether the scope can be so locked up that a firmware load or firmware reset can't be done.
As you are probably aware, many DSO's are part of a manufacturers series with indentical HW and bandwidth is set at the factory for any particular model in a series.
Any hack method/procedure that doesn't replicate the factory procedure will risk possible lockup of the scope. (formal Service menu BW settings excluded)
There is much knowledge and experience of hacking in this forum and this should be comforting to any that want to attempt hacking, nevertheless the risk remains.  :-BROKE
Even the use of another manufacturers firmware in a re-badged DSO is not always problem free.  :-BROKE

All this is good reason why it is mostly attempted on the lower cost DSO's.
That is: your new DSO door stop hasn't cost the earth.  :scared:
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Offline TunerSandwich

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #189 on: November 27, 2014, 06:36:32 pm »
firmware and cal data should NOT be confused

if you wreck the firmware, you can recover....worst case from a header

if you lose cal data that is stored in a ROM (not sure if the firmware changes even touch that cluster) then it's a done deal

this is going to be specific to each product, and the way in which that cal data is influenced by FW.  My guess is, in most cases, the data isn't touched by FW, BUT when you go modifying FW the influence on that data may be in question ? 

excuse the recursive question there, BUT I believe this is case specific.  The term "hack" has always bothered me, because it's so general and not applied.  I.E. what in specific reality is the "hack".  If the "hack" influences cal data, then I would stay far far away from that.  If there is a way to "backup" and "reflash" cal data, ok, but that isn't as easy as it sounds
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #190 on: November 28, 2014, 09:51:04 am »
Reliability becomes more important after hacking, as you've lost the support of a warranty.
Assuming it can be turned on, and you can access the Options Menu, any hacked options can be undone.  :)

If that's the only way to do it, I would not try any sort of hacking -- it's too easy to see faulty firmware making the scope inoperative.
You can also do it via an SCI command over USB.
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #191 on: November 28, 2014, 04:02:11 pm »
I have a DSOX2004 for 18 months now. It recently came back from a repair (still under warranty). They said they replaced the "main board". They didn't give any other info. I haven't made any attempts to hack it due to moral reasons but I'm thinking that there is a chance they could figure out that a scope is hacked and deny to honor the warranty. Even if hacking a scope doesn't brick it, there's always a chance of a failure during warranty period.
This is the 1st T&M device that fails on me for 20y (and needs to be repaired by someone else) and it kind of ruined my bubble fantasy that modern devices of well-known manufacturers don't break like that.   :-\

Sorry to hear about the failure (I agree, certainly anyone would hope for better).  As for hacking, as you and others have said, it seems prudent to avoid something which would void the warranty.  OTOH, it might be another matter if it was possible to easily return a scope to stock condition before sending it back a repair.
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #192 on: November 28, 2014, 06:10:21 pm »
Actually this recent question began concerning whether hacking attempts can lock up ("brick") a scope in an irreversible way.  So I wanted to know if there is always a way to get back to where one first started.  No matter which firmware version is being used, old or new, the real worry is whether the scope can be so locked up that a firmware load or firmware reset can't be done.
As you are probably aware, many DSO's are part of a manufacturers series with indentical HW and bandwidth is set at the factory for any particular model in a series.
Any hack method/procedure that doesn't replicate the factory procedure will risk possible lockup of the scope. (formal Service menu BW settings excluded)
There is much knowledge and experience of hacking in this forum and this should be comforting to any that want to attempt hacking, nevertheless the risk remains.  :-BROKE
Even the use of another manufacturers firmware in a re-badged DSO is not always problem free.  :-BROKE

All this is good reason why it is mostly attempted on the lower cost DSO's.
That is: your new DSO door stop hasn't cost the earth.  :scared:

With the risk as you describe it, I suspect I won't be trying the hacking experiment <g>......
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #193 on: November 28, 2014, 06:22:55 pm »
firmware and cal data should NOT be confused

if you wreck the firmware, you can recover....worst case from a header

if you lose cal data that is stored in a ROM (not sure if the firmware changes even touch that cluster) then it's a done deal

this is going to be specific to each product, and the way in which that cal data is influenced by FW.  My guess is, in most cases, the data isn't touched by FW, BUT when you go modifying FW the influence on that data may be in question ? 

excuse the recursive question there, BUT I believe this is case specific.  The term "hack" has always bothered me, because it's so general and not applied.  I.E. what in specific reality is the "hack".  If the "hack" influences cal data, then I would stay far far away from that.  If there is a way to "backup" and "reflash" cal data, ok, but that isn't as easy as it sounds

The more I hear, the less hacking appeals.  However, the "hack" I read about for one scope was very simple -- it involved just renaming a single file.  I have not yet researched whether this is the case for the Rigol DS1000Z series scopes which have been highly recommended here (specifically the DS1054Z 50MHz version).
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #194 on: November 28, 2014, 06:26:59 pm »
Reliability becomes more important after hacking, as you've lost the support of a warranty.
Assuming it can be turned on, and you can access the Options Menu, any hacked options can be undone.  :)

If that's the only way to do it, I would not try any sort of hacking -- it's too easy to see faulty firmware making the scope inoperative.
You can also do it via an SCI command over USB.

Can you expand on this a bit?  Also, will this work even if the scope is bricked and cannot "boot"?
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #195 on: November 28, 2014, 06:44:39 pm »
Can you expand on this a bit?  Also, will this work even if the scope is bricked and cannot "boot"?
You'd use the command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

Source = Upgrading Rigol DS1074Z (1000Z series) to unlock options thread (page 3, top post).

If the scope can't boot, that would have to be repaired before any SCI commands can be completed (i.e. reflash firmware to fix corruption first so it can boot & accept any SCI commands).

If it's a hardware problem that's preventing booting while under warranty, that would have to be sent in (they wouldn't be able to see any option changes until after the repair).
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #196 on: November 29, 2014, 12:59:26 pm »
Can you expand on this a bit?  Also, will this work even if the scope is bricked and cannot "boot"?
You'd use the command :SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

Source = Upgrading Rigol DS1074Z (1000Z series) to unlock options thread (page 3, top post).

If the scope can't boot, that would have to be repaired before any SCI commands can be completed (i.e. reflash firmware to fix corruption first so it can boot & accept any SCI commands).

If it's a hardware problem that's preventing booting while under warranty, that would have to be sent in (they wouldn't be able to see any option changes until after the repair).

That part about reflashing is exactly the point -- since I don't own a DSO, I have no idea what's involved if reflashing were needed (assuming, for example, with the Rigol DS1054Z).
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #197 on: November 29, 2014, 05:46:26 pm »
That part about reflashing is exactly the point -- since I don't own a DSO, I have no idea what's involved if reflashing were needed (assuming, for example, with the Rigol DS1054Z).
I've not done it on a Rigol, and I didn't see anything in the User Guide (262pg .pdf manual, not the thin Quick Start Guide they actually print). But I'd expect you'd be able to do it over the USB port, as that's how you update it to newer firmware (may not have written the software to downgrade firmware revisions yet). IIRC, I've read about other members being able to start their scope on a USB stick when there was a problem (insert USB stick prior to boot, then power it up).

There's also SCPI commands (commands can be found here). Physical interfaces are USB and LAN, and the manual has a section on GPIB as well. Past that, it's going to require special tools (programmer; either over JTAG pins/landings or desoldering and using an adapter board).

Not investigated this thoroughly yet, so I don't know of any precise procedure (especially any that doesn't involve a programmer).

Personally, I think I'm just going to wait until Rigol solves it in an official release (there is currently a Beta release, but there are issues with it).

Just in case you're not aware though, it's a nice little scope overall, and is certainly usable in it's current state. So it's not an "OMG, this thing is a useless pile of junk" situation by any means. The EEVBlog community is just good at finding bugs, and making threads about them (helps get the manufacturer's attention, so a big  :-+ IMHO).  :o  :P
 

Offline J-D-HTopic starter

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #198 on: November 30, 2014, 04:33:35 pm »
That part about reflashing is exactly the point -- since I don't own a DSO, I have no idea what's involved if reflashing were needed (assuming, for example, with the Rigol DS1054Z).
I've not done it on a Rigol, and I didn't see anything in the User Guide (262pg .pdf manual, not the thin Quick Start Guide they actually print). But I'd expect you'd be able to do it over the USB port, as that's how you update it to newer firmware (may not have written the software to downgrade firmware revisions yet). IIRC, I've read about other members being able to start their scope on a USB stick when there was a problem (insert USB stick prior to boot, then power it up).

There's also SCPI commands (commands can be found here). Physical interfaces are USB and LAN, and the manual has a section on GPIB as well. Past that, it's going to require special tools (programmer; either over JTAG pins/landings or desoldering and using an adapter board).

Not investigated this thoroughly yet, so I don't know of any precise procedure (especially any that doesn't involve a programmer).

Personally, I think I'm just going to wait until Rigol solves it in an official release (there is currently a Beta release, but there are issues with it).

Just in case you're not aware though, it's a nice little scope overall, and is certainly usable in it's current state. So it's not an "OMG, this thing is a useless pile of junk" situation by any means. The EEVBlog community is just good at finding bugs, and making threads about them (helps get the manufacturer's attention, so a big  :-+ IMHO).  :o  :P

Thanks for the explanation.  It was especially nice to hear that Rigol seems to pay attention to their user community.  Would that all mfgrs did that!
 

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Re: DSO Reliability
« Reply #199 on: November 30, 2014, 07:24:41 pm »
Thanks for the explanation.  It was especially nice to hear that Rigol seems to pay attention to their user community.  Would that all mfgrs did that!
This thread has filled at lot of gaps in your knowledge of DSO's.
However your last assumption is just that.

All manufacturers come unstuck at times with failures in design, firmware, QC, poor componentry etc.........

Only careful selection of an established brand/model can minimise a buyers risk.
IMO manufacturers support via the many dealers here is not to be overlooked.

Why should you a new buyer have to possibly struggle with manufacturers over warranty or firmware issues with a distant manufacturer or supplier. Build a relationship with your local supplier, it will pay off in the end.
Chasing a distant purchase for savings of a few dollars is a another case in point.
Any possible issues are difficult, costly and time comsuming to rectify.

We are lucky with EEVblog as a great resource of knowedge, especially when it comes to oscilloscopes.
This thread alone may not decide for you the right DSO to buy, however the many others on DSO's will likely.
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