Author Topic: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread  (Read 86496 times)

xbb, Gromitt, firstcolle, Robreeves, rattnallen, HKJ and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26174
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2018, 09:45:25 pm »
When Dave gets back he can address this the way he feels appropriate. Can the 121GW be speeded up?

Almost certainly.
It is being worked on as the first priority, but do not ask for an update, I do not have one.

Quote
what auto-range speed would the current HW allow?

That's a much harder question to answer. Look at the Keysight 1282A perhaps, that uses the exact same front end chipset.
 
The following users thanked this post: benst, Kean, nidlaX, iainwhite

Offline dcac

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 104
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2018, 07:24:32 am »
I think re-posting them would add little value at this point.

The only value I can see in those prototype videos would be if they somehow showed (significantly) faster auto-ranging than what's now been determined in the production model.
So you basically just want to know if anything has changed.  This makes sense.  I setup a very simple test where I placed both the preproduction 121GW and Gossen M248B next to one another with a stop watch.   I then drove the two meters using a common source between there min and max ranges.  So both meters are triggered at the same time for all practical purposes. 



Thanks for showing this!               

And here’s the major WTF moment - infinity to zero ohms - the Gossen is 4.1 sec just like I measured before - but the prototype 121GW is 3.8 sec!! compared to 7.4 sec on the production model I measured in Robert Culver's video - who showed how slow it was compared to his U1253 - a DMM Dave had ridiculed for being slow long time ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if joe got a cleaner more consistent contact is his test and possibly Robert Culver (unknowingly) had a bad probe or lead.
 
Also much of the ‘commotion’ with this issue being people’s different perspective of a fast/slow DMM - and not really prepared for what to expect with the 121GW - which was why I started to measure the time as accurate as possible in the video clips.

The U1282A was 3.5 and about 3.0 sec in 9fps mode - still kinda slooowish but more acceptable and hopefully 121GW can beat that.

 

Offline kcbrown

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: us
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2018, 07:54:34 am »
I think people are ignoring what is perhaps the most important question about this meter:  can it handle a 1.21GW burst of electricity?    ;D

Sadly, nobody has performed such a test, perhaps because it's difficult to put together.  Even Joe might not be able to do that.  Sounds like it might be a good opportunity for him to expand his pulse test equipment lineup.    :-DD

We're rooting for you, Joe!
 

Offline 1anX

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 79
  • Country: au
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2018, 08:35:13 am »
When Dave gets back he can address this the way he feels appropriate. Can the 121GW be speeded up?

Almost certainly.
It is being worked on as the first priority, but do not ask for an update, I do not have one.

Quote
what auto-range speed would the current HW allow?

That's a much harder question to answer. Look at the Keysight 1282A perhaps, that uses the exact same front end chipset.

Looks to me like Dave has answered the most asked question in all the numerous discussions on this meter on this forum! Maybe just maybe, we can move on for a moment to some other areas of discussion?

Personally I'm annoyed by this issue just like everyone else, but "for the love of god", (quoted ya Dave) can we give them a little time to bring out the new firmware fix!
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, gnavigator1007, beanflying

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4418
  • Country: us
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2018, 10:03:07 am »
I think people are ignoring what is perhaps the most important question about this meter:  can it handle a 1.21GW burst of electricity?    ;D

Sadly, nobody has performed such a test, perhaps because it's difficult to put together.  Even Joe might not be able to do that.  Sounds like it might be a good opportunity for him to expand his pulse test equipment lineup.    :-DD

We're rooting for you, Joe!
Maybe someone will send one to photonicinduction to put across his large cap.   :-DD

Thanks for showing this!               

And here’s the major WTF moment - infinity to zero ohms - the Gossen is 4.1 sec just like I measured before - but the prototype 121GW is 3.8 sec!! compared to 7.4 sec on the production model I measured in Robert Culver's video - who showed how slow it was compared to his U1253 - a DMM Dave had ridiculed for being slow long time ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if joe got a cleaner more consistent contact is his test and possibly Robert Culver (unknowingly) had a bad probe or lead.
 
Also much of the ‘commotion’ with this issue being people’s different perspective of a fast/slow DMM - and not really prepared for what to expect with the 121GW - which was why I started to measure the time as accurate as possible in the video clips.

The U1282A was 3.5 and about 3.0 sec in 9fps mode - still kinda slooowish but more acceptable and hopefully 121GW can beat that.
 

No problem.  Keep in mind both meters change states at the same time.  You can't tell when this happens in the video, only that the meters do eventually start to respond.   You can however tell which meter is faster by which settles first.  There is a fair amount of variance.  Again, I am not mechanically switching the signals for these tests.  As far as the response of the meter, consider the switching errors in the setup negligible.

For those of you that have an obsessive compulsive disorder, I setup another test.  This time using the a frequency counter and Arb to count 1ms events.  Events are sent to the counter at the same time the signals are sent to both the Gossen and prototype UEI meter.    After 10 seconds, I remove reset each meter to their over range state. 

I made four short to open cycles.  Sorry but the high frame rate of the camera limits recording to 4 seconds and the meters are just too slow to capture the entire event.   So I stretched the start and stop of each event to help provide a better estimate.   

For the true OCD people out there, this is not going to be enough.  So I set the camera to manual trigger at 1000fps.  I then captured the last few seconds where the meters settle.  I then repeat this a second time.  Just in these two cycles, we can see the UEI meter change by roughly 40ms and the Gossen by 80ms.   

Again, I can't stress enough that this is NOT the released camera meter.  :-DD  It was an early prototype that Dave provided.  The data shown may not be representative of the released product.





« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 11:44:59 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, Iagash

Offline ez24

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3064
  • Country: us
  • L.D.A.
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2018, 01:08:18 pm »
I think people are ignoring what is perhaps the most important question about this meter:  can it handle a 1.21GW burst of electricity?    ;D
Since that is enough to power 1,000,000 homes it might require a shunt. 
YouTube and Website Electronic Resources ------>  http://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/a/msg1341166/#msg1341166
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4418
  • Country: us
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2018, 08:34:01 pm »
I think people are ignoring what is perhaps the most important question about this meter:  can it handle a 1.21GW burst of electricity?    ;D
Since that is enough to power 1,000,000 homes it might require a shunt.

The 1.21GW may only last an atto second or so. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online VK5RC

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1894
  • Country: au
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2018, 09:31:20 pm »
I have done a rough-as-guts comparison of my handheld DMM collection in terms of resistance Auto-ranging time.
The winner ( - chicken dinner) is a 3458 (not fair I know) but then a Gossen. The 121GW is quite close to the Keysight U1282A - as Dave states above -the same chip.



Edit, Grammar
PS If I recall, Dave's criticism of the U1253 was mainly the timing of 'continuity' not the standard resistance range. The U1253B is slow in continuity but does give a reading of ohms - presumably for short finding.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 09:38:35 pm by VK5RC »
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, The Soulman, rstofer

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4418
  • Country: us
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2018, 12:34:54 am »
I have done a rough-as-guts comparison of my handheld DMM collection in terms of resistance Auto-ranging time.
The winner ( - chicken dinner) is a 3458 (not fair I know) but then a Gossen. The 121GW is quite close to the Keysight U1282A - as Dave states above -the same chip.

Edit, Grammar
PS If I recall, Dave's criticism of the U1253 was mainly the timing of 'continuity' not the standard resistance range. The U1253B is slow in continuity but does give a reading of ohms - presumably for short finding.
You sir have a lot of test equipment. 

Funny as I think my Gossen may be the slowest handheld meter I have for this test but to be fair, it's also one of the higher resolution meters.   

Thanks for putting this video together.
 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline ez24

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3064
  • Country: us
  • L.D.A.
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2018, 05:49:52 am »
I have done a rough-as-guts comparison of my handheld DMM collection ....

If you turned on everything, you would need a 1.21 GW meter to measure the kW used.   :-DD
YouTube and Website Electronic Resources ------>  http://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/a/msg1341166/#msg1341166
 

Offline Terry01

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 336
  • Country: scotland
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2018, 06:45:02 am »
Holy Smokes!

Is all that equipment for home/hobby use?
Sparks and Smoke means i'm nearly there! 8)
 

Online VK5RC

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1894
  • Country: au
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2018, 12:15:13 pm »
Don't tell my wife! HiHi
It is about 20yrs of selective purchases.
No,  she knows, I don't look at her shoes / handbags / lululemon running gear!

I wanted to post the big variations in hand dmm autoranging time.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 12:33:22 pm by VK5RC »
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 

Offline dcac

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 104
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2018, 02:34:46 pm »
@VK5RC - Thanks for testing your 121GW again and provide even more comparisons with your other DMMs - indeed an impressive collection you have there.

I also thought I mention this as it might help tracking down a possible bug. Even though the probes seems to be closed firmly - the bargraph flicker a couple of times just as if there was intermittent connection. I thought I saw the same flicker in the first video and that’s why I made that comment earlier about the probes possibly being bad. But from what I can tell now - the flicker seems to happen in more or less the same place in the auto-ranging sequence - most noticeably when going from Mohms to Kohms.

The bargraph on Joe’s prototype 121GW did not seem to flicker at all.

 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4418
  • Country: us
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2018, 02:44:17 pm »
The bargraph on Joe’s prototype 121GW did not seem to flicker at all.

No but in that last attempt you can clearly see the fade in vs the half and half, or should I say half + 1 segment.   :-DD   

I could run a side by side of the meters that have survived all my abuse along with the counter to time it.  Seems like an easier way to measure them anyway.  My old analog meter settles pretty fast but does not have auto ranging.  :-DD
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline dcac

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 104
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2018, 03:12:35 pm »
The bargraph on Joe’s prototype 121GW did not seem to flicker at all.

No but in that last attempt you can clearly see the fade in vs the half and half, or should I say half + 1 segment.   :-DD   

I could run a side by side of the meters that have survived all my abuse along with the counter to time it.  Seems like an easier way to measure them anyway.  My old analog meter settles pretty fast but does not have auto ranging.  :-DD

Just to clarify - in my previous post I meant the two times Robert Culver tested his 121GW I saw the bargraph flicker in more or less the same place - as if the connection between his probes was intermittent. Compared to your prototype where the bargraph did not seem to flicker at all. Possibly this could be the indication of a bug the auto-ranging routine in Robet’s 121GW that causes bargraph flicker and overall slow auto-ranging speed.

 

Online beanflying

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 771
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2018, 03:15:29 pm »
Seems either the meter and or the reference has drifted 2 LSD.  Decided not to try and figure out which as Yep that is 42+ degrees C on the bench  :phew:
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Online beanflying

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 771
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2018, 03:19:37 pm »

Just to clarify - in my previous post I meant the two times Robert Culver tested his 121GW I saw the bargraph flicker in more or less the same place - as if the connection between his probes was intermittent. Compared to your prototype where the bargraph did not seem to flicker at all. Possibly this could be the indication of a bug the auto-ranging routine in Robet’s 121GW that causes bargraph flicker and overall slow auto-ranging speed.

Just to clarify you are relying on the videos of others for the content of your last 25 posts to search for any perceived (by you) flaws in a product you haven't used in the flesh?  :palm:
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4418
  • Country: us
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2018, 10:22:11 pm »

Just to clarify - in my previous post I meant the two times Robert Culver tested his 121GW I saw the bargraph flicker in more or less the same place - as if the connection between his probes was intermittent. Compared to your prototype where the bargraph did not seem to flicker at all. Possibly this could be the indication of a bug the auto-ranging routine in Robet’s 121GW that causes bargraph flicker and overall slow auto-ranging speed.

Just to clarify you are relying on the videos of others for the content of your last 25 posts to search for any perceived (by you) flaws in a product you haven't used in the flesh?  :palm:
Has anyone in the USA received theirs? 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4418
  • Country: us
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2018, 10:32:52 pm »
Don't tell my wife! HiHi
It is about 20yrs of selective purchases.
No,  she knows, I don't look at her shoes / handbags / lululemon running gear!

I wanted to post the big variations in hand dmm autoranging time.

I looked at your 1282A after you showed how the readings were moving around.  Wow!!! No wonder!! That thing can read up to 600Meg.  Very impressive.  With you being able to program it, I assume they are using relays to switch the modes.  I wonder if it has the same problem as my Gossen where the magnetic hanger can change the state of the relays.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26174
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2018, 10:39:59 pm »
Seems either the meter and or the reference has drifted 2 LSD.  Decided not to try and figure out which as Yep that is 42+ degrees C on the bench  :phew:

Reminds me of the old garage EEVblog lab. In old videos you can see the sweat running down my forehead.
 

Offline iainwhite

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
  • Country: us
  • Measure twice...
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2018, 12:55:52 am »
Has anyone in the USA received theirs?

Joe, I received mine on Jan 8th.   I think there were at least a couple of other US guys that have too.
 

Offline dcac

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 104
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2018, 01:10:44 am »
Just to clarify you are relying on the videos of others for the content of your last 25 posts to search for any perceived (by you) flaws in a product you haven't used in the flesh?  :palm:

Interesting comment on a Video blog related forum. For me videos are very useful to evaluate a product’s performance or apparent flaws, sorry if you can’t do that, please feel free to ignore my posts.

 
The following users thanked this post: 3db

Offline idpromnut

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2018, 05:56:22 am »
Probably off topic (a bit), but I am ashamed to say that the significance of this evaded me (as I was busy exploring the meter functionality, and not the serial number on the back):
 
The following users thanked this post: sleemanj, PhotonPhil

Offline logictom

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
  • Country: au
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2018, 08:23:20 am »
Just to clarify you are relying on the videos of others for the content of your last 25 posts to search for any perceived (by you) flaws in a product you haven't used in the flesh?  :palm:

Interesting comment on a Video blog related forum. For me videos are very useful to evaluate a product’s performance or apparent flaws, sorry if you can’t do that, please feel free to ignore my posts.

I don't see the issue with this. I think some people are getting a little bit too fanboy, don't get me wrong, I bought one aswell with the explicit need, it's always good to have more meters and to support Dave. How is critiquing this from video any different to us all saying how dumb apple was to remove the 3.5mm jack on the latest iPhone without most of us owning one.

Banging on the same issue in multiple posts without adding anything to the discussion is another thing, but evaluating a product via video and without owning it - how else would we decide on what to buy from all these online only retailers.
 

Online maukka

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 58
  • Country: fi
Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2018, 03:06:21 am »
Did a 10 hour logging of temperature simultaneously with a Uni-T UT181A at 60 second sampling interval. Also another one for voltage for a couple of hours at 1 second interval while discharging a battery. Was very happy to find that they're perfectly in sync. While a Mooshimeter for example drifts compared to them.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 03:08:13 am by maukka »
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, Iagash


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf