Author Topic: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread  (Read 770086 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #350 on: March 05, 2018, 10:11:52 am »
The recess fits over the protruded tab on the actual top of the range switch, I showed this on the latest live feed.
The circlip actually resides flush with the case as it's in a concave part of the case molding.

How about a link Dave!
I couldn't find the live feed where you show the correct position of the spacer.

You'll see it eventually in a saved live feed. live streams only go back 2 hours.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #351 on: March 05, 2018, 01:42:48 pm »
If you want to compare it with the Fluke 17B+, SC4.   I have no answer why this meter is so stable. The contacts are a whole different setup. 
I wonder if the resistance connections going through the switch are 4 wire in the Fluke. It is one possible explanation for the dramatic improvement in performance over all the other meters.

It is also possible that they have put in the engineering work needed to make fabulous switches.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #352 on: March 06, 2018, 05:14:54 am »
Watching Dave's switch testing live video earlier on today. Had the spacer on the right way round this time  :D
Looks like the switch is fixed and thoroughly tested!
All we need to find out now is have the firmware fixes been applied and tested?
Must be getting close to shipping out to the Johnny Be Goode backers  :-+
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #353 on: March 06, 2018, 05:35:44 am »
You're keen.

I can understand that to a point - but if we take it to an automotive equivalent ... adding a packing piece that helps keep the steering wheel from wobbling around and properly connected to the steering rack doesn't mean the rewrite of the engine management system is nearly finished.

You are not the only one anxious for the updates to go out.

Also, just remember those who did get the meters, got them at a reduced price.  That came with a risk, one that was pretty much expected by many.  When I'm able to get one of these for myself, I will be paying more in dollar terms, but less in time.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #354 on: March 06, 2018, 08:29:52 am »
Also, just remember those who did get the meters, got them at a reduced price.  That came with a risk, one that was pretty much expected by many.  When I'm able to get one of these for myself, I will be paying more in dollar terms, but less in time.
Well I dunno about that Brumby! I think you have invested plenty of time on this thread already :D

Your comments are plentiful and you usually dont spare us the depth of your insights into how this meter should or shouldn't be developed and what should or shouldn't take place before its released as a production unit.

I personally decided to place an order, (become a backer) because of its novelty value and because of it coming from Dave and EEVBlog. I paid whatever for the meter and ended up in the Johnny Be Goode group. I make no pretense of being privy to the design and release of this meter just my own thoughts and observations. If the meter works out to be great value for money I will be well pleased.

As this forum is for Discussion I will continue to discuss and share my thoughts with those who care to read them. I dont pretend to be an expert in meter design and testing, I'm simply interested in this meter and Dave's kick starter venture. For me its about a meter and its development and having fun while discovering whats involved.

In a discussion, its not only "expert" opinion that makes for interest, drawing a cross section of personalities and opinions makes it more diverse and complete.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #355 on: March 06, 2018, 10:40:17 am »
Dave, I mentioned I had uploaded  a few clips of  Brymen's test jig in operation.  The attached link starts at those clips.  It is followed by showing how my setup works.

Also, the formulas on the yellow sticky notes were r=v/2300 and R=2740/((1/r)-1) . The second note stated the first column was V.    So for v=128,  R=2740/((2300/128)-1) = 152.5.  But this is way too high.  Even if it were 1.525  ohms, this is not close.   With all that computer power, I am a bit surprised that the software just did not display the value in ohms rather than use bits of paper.   Your programmer needs to step up their game.   :-DD

 
https://youtu.be/bs5n3a__Yq0?t=400
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 12:46:45 am by joeqsmith »
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #356 on: March 06, 2018, 01:48:25 pm »
Your comments are plentiful and you usually dont spare us the depth of your insights into how this meter should or shouldn't be developed and what should or shouldn't take place before its released as a production unit.
Sorry.

I just made comments about the development process as I see it, based on what little I know, what Dave has said and what logic suggests.

I take any comment that infers the process should be in such-and-such a state as something a little more aggressive than "a hope".  It will take as long as it takes.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #357 on: March 06, 2018, 09:06:52 pm »
Dave, I mentioned I had uploaded  a few clips of  Brymen's test jig in operation.  The attached link shows starts at those clips.  It is followed by showing how my setup works.
https://youtu.be/bs5n3a__Yq0?t=400

Joe, watching the video of your test jig in action, it becomes apparent just how brutal Dave's jig is compared to yours. Your switch actuating "fingers" and timed sequencing approximates real world usage. At least it appears that way to me.

It suggests to me that Dave's jig would inflict more wear and damage than may be found in other manufacturers testing of their meter's switches?

It also shows the relevance of having someone like you running uniform consistent tests on a range of meters and brands so that a true indication of robustness, precision and accuracy can be conveyed to the prospective buyer.

Definitely looking forward to seeing how the blue meter performs once you get hold of a "production" unit.

Watching the video also presented me with the same dilemma that confronted Neo. Choose the Red meter or the Blue meter, as I considered the Brymen a worthy competitor for my money!
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #358 on: March 07, 2018, 01:17:03 am »
Dave, I mentioned I had uploaded  a few clips of  Brymen's test jig in operation.  The attached link shows starts at those clips.  It is followed by showing how my setup works.
https://youtu.be/bs5n3a__Yq0?t=400

Joe, watching the video of your test jig in action, it becomes apparent just how brutal Dave's jig is compared to yours. Your switch actuating "fingers" and timed sequencing approximates real world usage. At least it appears that way to me.

It suggests to me that Dave's jig would inflict more wear and damage than may be found in other manufacturers testing of their meter's switches?

It also shows the relevance of having someone like you running uniform consistent tests on a range of meters and brands so that a true indication of robustness, precision and accuracy can be conveyed to the prospective buyer.

Definitely looking forward to seeing how the blue meter performs once you get hold of a "production" unit.

Watching the video also presented me with the same dilemma that confronted Neo. Choose the Red meter or the Blue meter, as I considered the Brymen a worthy competitor for my money!

I am not really sure which setup would be harder on the meter or closer simulate real world use or even if it matters.   I can only show what I am doing, present the data and let the viewers draw their own conclusions.  Similar to the transient tests.  As you suggest, I do try and keep the tests consistent and there does seem to be some trends even with the limited data I have collected.   One benefit is because I really don't care about hand held meters and have no vested interest in any brand and draw no income from running them, coupled with a somewhat consistent set of tests, things are fairly unbiased.   You get data rather than feelings. 

blah blah blah....

Now about those yellow sticky notes.   I saw they were no longer shown in the edited video so I have attached a screen shot.  Granted, I am not sure why they use r=V/3300 only to invert it below but the numbers don't seem to work out even close to what their meter was reading and everything is well above the 10 ohm limit.  Is this that new math I keep hearing about? 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #359 on: March 07, 2018, 02:56:28 am »
Now about those yellow sticky notes.   I saw they were no longer shown in the edited video so I have attached a screen shot.  Granted, I am not sure why they use r=V/3300 only to invert it below but the numbers don't seem to work out even close to what their meter was reading and everything is well above the 10 ohm limit.  Is this that new math I keep hearing about?

a) Nothing was "removed in editing". The entire original 23 hour video is still being processed by youtube and will eventually be available online. It seems that only the final 2 hours is currently available.

b) By the "edited video" I presume you mean the one "How to do Lifecycle Testing". I simply extracted some content from the stream to create a new video were I talked about general range switch testing as I thought it might be interesting to people as separate video.

c) There is a uCurrent x100 amplifier used in the jig across the switch contacts, that is not shown in the equations.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #360 on: March 07, 2018, 03:11:29 am »
UPDATE:

Hardware:
- We are now confident in the shim and revised indent spring solution for the range switch. This fixes both the intermittent contact issue and the switch wobble issue.
- Existing backers with meters will get shipped a replacement switch and shim and instructions.
- All future backer meters shipped will come with these installed.

Firmware
- We will now release version 1.07 it can be downloaded here:
https://www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/
Just rename it to EEVblog.bin on the SD card and update as per the manual instructions.
This fixes several major issues including:
- Improved ohms autoranging speed, now on par with the Keysight U1282A
- Negative VA value issue
- Beeper now defaults to off and can be switched on in the setup menu.
- High frequency Low-Z measurement issue fixed.
- VA over reading issue fixed.

Software
- Windows app software is now available on the Microsoft store.

Barring any more issues we will be proceeding with fulfillment again shortly. Sorry, no ETA actual dates will be promised at this stage.
 
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Offline Average Meatsack

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #361 on: March 07, 2018, 05:41:26 am »
UPDATE:

Software
- Windows app software is now available on the Microsoft store.

I have downloaded the software onto my Windows 10 laptop. I am waiting for my meter but I thought I would have a quick poke around the software beforehand. I would have though that it would be similar to the Android version that actually has a display but no such luck. All I get when I start the software is a window with <Settings> and a refresh button at the bottom of the screen. Clicking on <> or Settings does nothing. Mousing over the Reset button causes a change colour but it is impossible to know if it is doing anything.

I am using Windows 10 Build 1629.248, 8Gb RAM, Core i5-4200U CPU and with plenty of space on the Windows OS install partition. Bluetooth is enabled. I tried disabling Avast to see it that was causing the seeming issue but there was no change. I believe I am having an issue with the software unless it behaves completely different to the Android version, not displaying anything if it cannot see the meter.

I have attached a screenshot of what I am seeing.
 

Offline imidis

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #362 on: March 07, 2018, 06:16:42 am »
That looks like a typical windows 10 app to me.  >:D :-//
Gone for good
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #363 on: March 07, 2018, 06:40:32 am »
I have downloaded the software onto my Windows 10 laptop. I am waiting for my meter but I thought I would have a quick poke around the software beforehand. I would have though that it would be similar to the Android version that actually has a display but no such luck. All I get when I start the software is a window with <Settings> and a refresh button at the bottom of the screen. Clicking on <> or Settings does nothing.

It shouldn't display anything unless you have a meter to talk to, sorry.
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #364 on: March 07, 2018, 06:47:53 am »
F/w 1.07: the Sound of Silence  :-+
 

Offline amspire

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #365 on: March 07, 2018, 06:55:47 am »
F/w 1.07: the Sound of Silence  :-+
I was going to post earlier but hit a stumbling block.

After loading 1.07, I found my current ranges no longer work. Put it back to 1.01 and they still do not work - reads overflow on many ranges. I am debugging the meter to see if I just got a switch problem at the same time as the upgrade. The meter has not been near high voltages and currents and the fuses and shunts are fine. The current ranges did work perfectly. It is not a lost calibration issue - it looks more like a floating connection that should be going to the shunt resistors.

The resistance  now goes from open to a short in under 5 seconds - much more respectable.  :-+

Looks like VA is still restricted to 55V maximum and they haven't fixed the issues with the capacitance manual range yet:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-121gw-multimeter-issues/150/
 
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Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #366 on: March 07, 2018, 07:57:24 am »
F/w 1.07: the Sound of Silence  :-+
I was going to post earlier but hit a stumbling block.

After loading 1.07, I found my current ranges no longer work. Put it back to 1.01 and they still do not work - reads overflow on many ranges. I am debugging the meter to see if I just got a switch problem at the same time as the upgrade. The meter has not been near high voltages and currents and the fuses and shunts are fine. The current ranges did work perfectly. It is not a lost calibration issue - it looks more like a floating connection that should be going to the shunt resistors.

The resistance  now goes from open to a short in under 5 seconds - much more respectable.  :-+

Looks like VA is still restricted to 55V maximum and they haven't fixed the issues with the capacitance manual range yet:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-121gw-multimeter-issues/150/

Bugger!

Interested to see what you find the problem is with your current ranges.

Thanks for reporting the capacitance reading problem. Looking at your previous post you think this is associated with the oscillator not having a time out function and more specifically a time out function suited to the range selected.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #367 on: March 07, 2018, 12:12:51 pm »
After loading 1.07, I found my current ranges no longer work. Put it back to 1.01 and they still do not work - reads overflow on many ranges. I am debugging the meter to see if I just got a switch problem at the same time as the upgrade. The meter has not been near high voltages and currents and the fuses and shunts are fine. The current ranges did work perfectly. It is not a lost calibration issue - it looks more like a floating connection that should be going to the shunt resistors.

I would presume that has to a coincidental intermittent switch issue. No other reason would make sense.
 

Offline Iagash

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #368 on: March 07, 2018, 12:23:09 pm »
The bluetooth data corruption is not fixed in 1.07.

Some can be detected, but others can't, see the random "LowZ" signaling in the 6th column.

Quote
1520424876.136 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCA    0.01
1520424876.406 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCA    0.01
1520424876.676 read STDIN: invalid byte: 6 of 34
1520424876.676 read STDIN: invalid byte: 13 of 20
1520424876.676 read STDIN: invalid byte: 10 of 19
1520424876.811 read STDIN: invalid byte: 10 of 14
1520424877.081 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.3 mVA       DCA    0.01
1520424877.352 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.3 mVA       DCA    0.01
1520424877.621 read STDIN: invalid byte: 131 of 34
1520424877.621 read STDIN: invalid byte: 10 of 33
1520424877.756 read STDIN: invalid byte: 10 of 14
1520424878.026 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCA    0.01
1520424878.296 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424878.566 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424878.836 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.1 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424879.106 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.1 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424879.376 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.1 mVA     Low_Z    4112
1520424879.646 read STDIN: invalid byte: 10 of 34
1520424879.781 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424880.051 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)    -0.4 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424880.321 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)    -0.4 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424880.591 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424880.861 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCV  0.0000
1520424881.131 read STDIN: invalid byte: 24 of 34
1520424881.131 read STDIN: invalid byte: 13 of 19
1520424881.131 read STDIN: invalid byte: 10 of 18
1520424881.266 read STDIN: invalid byte: 20 of 14
1520424881.266 read STDIN: invalid byte: 10 of 13
1520424881.536 read STDIN: invalid byte: 10 of 14
1520424881.806 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCA    0.01
1520424882.076 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)     0.0 mVA       DCA    0.01
 

Offline Candid

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #369 on: March 07, 2018, 12:33:46 pm »
- Existing backers with meters will get shipped a replacement switch and shim and instructions.
Thank you I am eagerly waiting for this fix!

Firmware
- We will now release version 1.07 it can be downloaded here:
Thank you for the new firmware, works fine for me and auto range is really ok now even if it is not the fastest (for me max. 4 - 5 secs).

The beeper off function needs a revise I think. Now at beeper off you don't have any beeper in all functions. No continuity beeper and no beeper in any other function.

It would be much better to get a detailed beeper configuration at least should (if only one is possible) beeper off only be for power on and switching between the functions with the switch. When I power on the 121GW I automatically look on the display and see if it turns on, no need for a beep. And when I switch the function I get a feedback from the switch and the display, no need for a beep. But in continuity and other functions I need the beep as feedback even if the display gives me a feedback too but I am not always looking on the display when using this functions (e.g. searching for a short).
 

Offline amspire

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #370 on: March 07, 2018, 01:03:00 pm »
After loading 1.07, I found my current ranges no longer work. Put it back to 1.01 and they still do not work - reads overflow on many ranges. I am debugging the meter to see if I just got a switch problem at the same time as the upgrade. The meter has not been near high voltages and currents and the fuses and shunts are fine. The current ranges did work perfectly. It is not a lost calibration issue - it looks more like a floating connection that should be going to the shunt resistors.

I would presume that has to a coincidental intermittent switch issue. No other reason would make sense.
That's what I figured, but my initial look at the circuit showed a lot of the current switching is done by cmos switches. Both the buffered and unbuffered ranges are affected. The rotary switch seems to be perfect. I cannot find any obvious continuity faults right now. I will hook up some power and test the voltages tomorrow. It might be a broken track or a dry joint.
 

Offline Iagash

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #371 on: March 07, 2018, 01:05:40 pm »
Bluetooth and VA mode is still completely broken, even if you filter the invalid records.
It's also broken in the android app. It displays the same wrong readings.

The 391.2 mVA reading is the correct one.

Quote
1520427022.717 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2499.9 mVA       DCV  1.5652
1520427022.987 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2499.8 mVA       DCV  1.5652
1520427023.257 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2499.8 mVA       DCV  1.5652
1520427023.527 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2499.8 mVA       DCV  1.5652
1520427023.797 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)   391.2 mVA       DCV  1.5652
1520427024.067 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)   391.2 mVA       DCV  1.5652
1520427024.742 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  1564.9 mVA       DCA  249.97
1520427025.282 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  1565.2 mVA       DCA  249.97
1520427025.552 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)   391.2 mVA       DCA  249.97
1520427025.822 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2500.0 mVA       DCA  249.97
1520427026.565 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2499.9 mVA       DCA  249.97
1520427027.240 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)   391.3 mVA       DCA  249.99
1520427027.510 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)   391.3 mVA       DCA  249.99
1520427027.780 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  1521.7 mVA       DCV  1.5653
1520427028.050 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  1565.2 mVA       DCV  1.5653
1520427028.320 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  1565.2 mVA       DCV  1.5653
1520427029.265 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2500.2 mVA       DCV  1.5655
1520427029.535 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2500.0 mVA       DCV  1.5655
1520427029.805 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2500.1 mVA       DCV  1.5655
1520427030.075 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2500.0 mVA       DCV  1.5655
1520427030.345 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  2500.1 mVA       DCV  1.5655
1520427031.020 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  1516.9 mVA       DCV  1.5655
1520427031.290 2017-08 00042    Power DC (VA)  1516.9 mVA       DCA  250.00
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #372 on: March 07, 2018, 01:09:56 pm »
The 24 hour video was no longer listed when I checked, so yes I was referring to your how-to video.   

Youtube is rooted, it's there.



It's still processing

 

Offline idpromnut

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #373 on: March 07, 2018, 01:49:39 pm »
@Dave: at the risk of sounding like an ungrateful asshole, while the beeper on/off option is fantastic (nice and quite now!  :-+ ), it renders the continuity beeper also silent, which I would argue either should have it's own configuration option, or at least be on all the time, even if the beeper for functions/buttons is turned off.

That being said, I don't know that I would classify this as an "issue".  A big thanks to UEi for getting issues in the FW addressed quickly!
 
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Offline Candid

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #374 on: March 07, 2018, 02:26:10 pm »
Maybe someone can explain to me what the problem is:
2 different function generators tested, JDS6600 and FeelTech FY6600. Identical settings, identical results.

For example: 4kHz square wave with 2.0Vpp. Measured Vac with the 121GW and as comparison a Fluke 28II (highres mode).

Range AUTO: 121GW selects 5V range, Fluke selects 6V range
121GW reads 1.37xxVac, Fluke reads 0.99xxVac

Manual range 5V 121GW, 6V Fluke 28II:
121GW reads 1.37xxVac, Fluke reads 0.99xxVac

Manual range 50V 121GW, 60V Fluke 28II:
121GW reads 0.95xVac, Fluke reads 0.94xxVac

Similar behavior for the 121GW with sine wave. It reads 1,117xV in auto range and manual 5V range and 0,664V in manual 50V range. I checked with 200Hz sine and same behavior for the 121GW, Fluke and Brymen 235 work fine.

What is the 121GW doing in auto range / 5V range?


And Bluetooth:
Still the same for me. It's more or less luck if I get a connection to the meter. Tried both apps. When I get a connection with Dave2-App I only get something displayed in the lower half of the display, the upper half stays completely blank for me on my Samsung Galaxy S8.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 11:51:04 am by Candid »
 
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