Author Topic: EEVBlog BM235  (Read 2827 times)

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Offline timkoers

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EEVBlog BM235
« on: February 25, 2018, 08:40:17 am »
I bought Dave's BM235 a few months ago and I am very very pleased with it. Especially considering my previous meter was a cheap ass one (FX-99MX)

There are a few things that I haven't got an answer too and I couldn't find in the manual.

I am testing my new 'reflow oven' and I noticed that I can't find the max temperature rating for the Type-K probe that comes with the meter.
What is the maximal temperature, or the maximal temperature range of the Type-K temperature probe?

And what is the slot for at the back of the meter, which get's covered by the magnet if you put it on?
It looks like some kind of IR interface, I found someone who was keen to knowing that too, but didn't got any answers.

Have a nice evening!

Tim
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2018, 09:22:35 am »
The meter tops out around 450C.  The plastic insulator would be the limiting part of the probe.  You may want to buy a few cheap cloth covered ones.   

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline Maxlor

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2018, 09:44:40 am »
And what is the slot for at the back of the meter, which get's covered by the magnet if you put it on?
It looks like some kind of IR interface, I found someone who was keen to knowing that too, but didn't got any answers.
That's its intended purpose indeed. Unfortunately, the IR interface is only fitted on the BM250 series, which uses the same case design, not the BM230 series.
 
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Offline timkoers

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2018, 08:53:13 pm »
The meter tops out around 450C.  The plastic insulator would be the limiting part of the probe.  You may want to buy a few cheap cloth covered ones.   



Thanks! I do noticed that the blue plastic insulator has drawn back a tiny little amount, and of course I wanted to touch the probe when it just came out of my oven  :palm:

And what is the slot for at the back of the meter, which get's covered by the magnet if you put it on?
It looks like some kind of IR interface, I found someone who was keen to knowing that too, but didn't got any answers.
That's its intended purpose indeed. Unfortunately, the IR interface is only fitted on the BM250 series, which uses the same case design, not the BM230 series.

Aah that's a shame, I would say solder some IR interfaces on it, but that is probably not going to work due to the software not supporting IR.

Thanks guys!
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2018, 12:09:17 am »
Aah that's a shame, I would say solder some IR interfaces on it, but that is probably not going to work due to the software not supporting IR.

Don't worry, when the BM235 first came out, there were a few people interested in that - but the board didn't seem to have a layout that was sympathetic to that idea.
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2018, 10:59:47 am »
The meter tops out around 450C.  The plastic insulator would be the limiting part of the probe.  You may want to buy a few cheap cloth covered ones.   



Hey Joe,
Using my Brymen BM235 with included temp probe, I attempted to measure the solder tip temps on my new TS100 iron, but see much lower temps then the iron is showing, in the minus 100 degess Fahrenheit or larger range, as well as temps jumping and inconsistencies. I thought about getting a knockoff Hakko solder tip meter, and found a review online by Clive, who basically verified what I was seeing, and felt a DMM’s thermocouples Temp accessory was not able to do these measurements accurately.

Can this be due to me and Clive perhaps trying to measure “small” tips with less mass? Seems in your video here you are not having any problems measuring tip temps with the thermocoupler, is there a proper technique or trick to doing it with accurate results? Thanks.

Clive video link:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2018, 11:49:34 am »
Aah that's a shame, I would say solder some IR interfaces on it, but that is probably not going to work due to the software not supporting IR.

Don't worry, when the BM235 first came out, there were a few people interested in that - but the board didn't seem to have a layout that was sympathetic to that idea.



also just for kicks:

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2018, 09:34:04 pm »
Hey Joe,
Using my Brymen BM235 with included temp probe, I attempted to measure the solder tip temps on my new TS100 iron, but see much lower temps then the iron is showing, in the minus 100 degess Fahrenheit or larger range, as well as temps jumping and inconsistencies. I thought about getting a knockoff Hakko solder tip meter, and found a review online by Clive, who basically verified what I was seeing, and felt a DMM’s thermocouples Temp accessory was not able to do these measurements accurately.

Can this be due to me and Clive perhaps trying to measure “small” tips with less mass? Seems in your video here you are not having any problems measuring tip temps with the thermocoupler, is there a proper technique or trick to doing it with accurate results? Thanks.

I received your email.  I would have no way of knowing how you were making the measurement or how accurate your iron is or where they are making the measurement at.   I can believe there could be a fair amount of difference between the actual soldering side of the tip and where they place their sensor.  In my video that you linked, I was comparing the meters and sensors but not the PACE's readout. 

I was playing around heating some wire and made a video about it that you may find of interest.    Air makes a pretty good heatsink.

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2018, 10:13:46 pm »
It’s not a Pace iron, the TS100 is based on the newer direct drive tips, similar to the Hakko T12’s. The temp on the iron handle is supposedly accurate to a few degrees Fahrenheit. I’ve tried holding the K-type DMM’s thermocoupler as tight to the small iron tip as possible, or even holding the iron tip down on the thermocoupler. In the Big Clive video link I included, he had the same inconsistent results I saw. I’ll check out your video. Thanks.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2018, 04:22:19 am »
It’s not a Pace iron, the TS100 is based on the newer direct drive tips, similar to the Hakko T12’s. The temp on the iron handle is supposedly accurate to a few degrees Fahrenheit. I’ve tried holding the K-type DMM’s thermocoupler as tight to the small iron tip as possible, or even holding the iron tip down on the thermocoupler. In the Big Clive video link I included, he had the same inconsistent results I saw. I’ll check out your video. Thanks.

And my soldering iron is not the TS100.  As I stated above, it's made by PACE.   I bought it new about 15 or so years ago from I think Jenson Tools.  It's been basically trouble free except one glitch with the EEPROM getting corrupt.   I'm still happy with it and would buy another. 

BM235 looking at the tip with a K-type.   Sorry but I don't have one of those fancy setups like the video you linked.   
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 12:32:30 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 04:44:07 am »
Thanks Joe, that last video shows it can be done. I can’t tell by the video, how is the thermocoupler attached to your iron? That must be the key. Trying to handhold the thermocoupler to a rather small tip just does not make enough of a positive connection.
BTW: Analog clock running in BG, smart!
 

Offline PA4TIM

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2018, 05:12:57 am »
It’s not a Pace iron, the TS100 is based on the newer direct drive tips, similar to the Hakko T12’s. The temp on the iron handle is supposedly accurate to a few degrees Fahrenheit.
The other option is that the TS100 is just another piece of Chinese finest craftmanship...... ;)
www.pa4tim.nl my collection measurement gear and experiments Also lots of info about network analyse
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Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2018, 05:16:35 am »
It’s not a Pace iron, the TS100 is based on the newer direct drive tips, similar to the Hakko T12’s. The temp on the iron handle is supposedly accurate to a few degrees Fahrenheit.
The other option is that the TS100 is just another piece of Chinese finest craftmanship...... ;)

Thanks, that’s very helpful!
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2018, 11:08:11 am »
Thanks Joe, that last video shows it can be done. I can’t tell by the video, how is the thermocoupler attached to your iron? That must be the key. Trying to handhold the thermocoupler to a rather small tip just does not make enough of a positive connection.
BTW: Analog clock running in BG, smart!

I have no idea what a small tip would mean to you so I pulled out a #357 1/64 in conical tip.

https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/tips-and-nozzles/soldering-iron-tips/ps90-tips/ps90-soldering-tips/164-in-conical-tip-357

I made up a lower mass K type with ceramic insulation at the tip in place of the old Fluke K type I used previously.  To make matters even worse, the temperature was set to the minimum.   Because you asked, I thought I would show how I very carefully and scientifically attach the TC to the iron's tip.  Even with the lower mass TC and ceramic, it still takes a while to heat up all that wire.   
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 12:32:56 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2018, 12:29:46 pm »
Geez, you left me hanging on for the dramatic conclusion. You are spoiling me with your “On Demand Video Productions”!

I’m viewing it on an iPad mini display, but it looks like you were creating a solder bridge there, since you just had the thermocoupler resting on the iron tip. I had previously thought of soldering the two together, but then figured as soon as the temperature reached the solders meting point, they would come apart, so I gave up. I believe I may have some high temp, I believe it’s fiberglass tape, I could use to insulate the thermocoupler cable similar to what you did. After last years buying spree of a bunch of those cheap Chinese meters (some of that your fault :), I think I have at least 3 thermocouplers, and can sacrifice a few if I screw up. The included tip that came with my TS100 is a conical with a slight angle cut on the end, not ideal, but I’m waiting for the chisel tip to come. Regardless, being the smart guy you are, you choose a real fine point, to make your point, it can be done. Thanks for walking me through this with baby steps, you know I’m a solder rookie. And to top it off, in the end you pushed up the iron and thermocoupler right into the camera, and through my iPad mini, felt like I could feel them, nice touch!

Thanks again Joe, you are one of the main reasons I come back here again and again. Yes, I’ve watched all the Fluke 87v videos, didn’t have much to add, as you had it covered nicely, and I don’t own one of those meters, though I have used them a bit. Keep up the great testing. LATER!!!
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2018, 02:35:22 am »
Geez, you left me hanging on for the dramatic conclusion. You are spoiling me with your “On Demand Video Productions”!

I’m viewing it on an iPad mini display, but it looks like you were creating a solder bridge there, since you just had the thermocoupler resting on the iron tip. I had previously thought of soldering the two together, but then figured as soon as the temperature reached the solders meting point, they would come apart, so I gave up. I believe I may have some high temp, I believe it’s fiberglass tape, I could use to insulate the thermocoupler cable similar to what you did. After last years buying spree of a bunch of those cheap Chinese meters (some of that your fault :), I think I have at least 3 thermocouplers, and can sacrifice a few if I screw up. The included tip that came with my TS100 is a conical with a slight angle cut on the end, not ideal, but I’m waiting for the chisel tip to come. Regardless, being the smart guy you are, you choose a real fine point, to make your point, it can be done. Thanks for walking me through this with baby steps, you know I’m a solder rookie. And to top it off, in the end you pushed up the iron and thermocoupler right into the camera, and through my iPad mini, felt like I could feel them, nice touch!

Thanks again Joe, you are one of the main reasons I come back here again and again. Yes, I’ve watched all the Fluke 87v videos, didn’t have much to add, as you had it covered nicely, and I don’t own one of those meters, though I have used them a bit. Keep up the great testing. LATER!!!

Glad to help.  BTW, I did watch the other video you linked up to where he shows trying to measure the temperature using the small meter and thermocouple.   Hard to say what is going on there.  Looks like he was trying to massage the iron's tip with the thermocouple.    You just want the junction making good contact with the tip and it should work fine, assuming there are no other problems. 

I doubt you will be able to solder to the TC leads.  I gas weld them.  The real problem with these smaller tips is getting rid of the thermal mass of the TC. 

Good luck with your new iron.   


Edit
I removed the two previous video links.  I combined them into a single video with some commentary.  I also included the referenced clip from Clive's video.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 12:37:16 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline JS

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2018, 02:59:42 pm »
Aah that's a shame, I would say solder some IR interfaces on it, but that is probably not going to work due to the software not supporting IR.

Don't worry, when the BM235 first came out, there were a few people interested in that - but the board didn't seem to have a layout that was sympathetic to that idea.



Comeooon! Just for what I saw in the video, The serial protocol must be the LCD driver input signal!!! pinch the trace, add an LED to it and you have it!  :scared:

Ok, LCD is not exactly the same so the protocol won't be the same but it might be similar in the part it matters, the numbers! I don't think you really need the units, or if it's recording, you do need the multipliers, so n, µ, m, k, M or just don't use it in autoranging when recording to the computer...

I might make that to mine, but I don't even have time to go to the men's room this days so  :-//

here is a link for the protocol so you don't have to go and look for it...
http://www.brymen.com/images/DownloadList/ProtocolList/BM250-BM250s_List/BM250-BM250s-6000-count-digital-multimeters-r1.pdf
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Offline Scottjd

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2018, 07:42:54 pm »
It’s not a Pace iron, the TS100 is based on the newer direct drive tips, similar to the Hakko T12’s. The temp on the iron handle is supposedly accurate to a few degrees Fahrenheit.
The other option is that the TS100 is just another piece of Chinese finest craftmanship...... ;)

Thanks, that’s very helpful!

Can I ask why your trying to measure the temp?
So I’m assuming your trying to measure this tip temp because it’s not working as you expect it should? I’ve done some feaserch in this iron lately, this is what I know that could help you.

Considering the TS100 iron that doesn’t come with a power supply the biggest issue people seem to experience with them is not using the correct power supply. A weaker supply may not be able to hold the temp accurately with big ground planes. What I know is the TS-100 recommends 40 Watts power supply as being ample enough to drive it for most people and because it’s a common laptop power supply like most at 19V, 2.1 amps.
The manual states it can run the voltage range of 12VDC to 24VDC. But it will use up to 65 watts of power. Some videos focus on the voltage, but it’s about the total power and wattage that the TS-100 will function differently for people.

If your trying to run it with a hobby RC LiPo battery then you want to focus on the constant amperage the cells are rated to discharge at. Since it can drain up to 65 Watts of power, you want the batter to be able to provide at least 65 Watts total constant power or you may damage the cell by over discharging them to fast when the ts-100 first start up to heat up the tip. A third part firmware has a setting for this so you can tell the iron what battery your using for a 1S, 2S, 3S cells, this also monitors the voltage of the lack so you don’t over discharge the cells.
I think it might even have a setting for different resistance tips, but don’t quote me on this since I don’t own one and have not tried one. I have to assume it changes the duty cycle to the mosfets for other tips at a different resistance so the mosfets don’t overheat? Not sure, since I didn’t program the open source firmware, but I know a lot of people that say it’s has a lot more features and works much better then the stock firmware.
Firmware: https://github.com/Ralim/ts100

The tips are like the Hakko T12/T15, but they might be a different resistance. I sent know, since I don’t own one. The amount of copper in the tip, the wire used for the heating element and other things can be different. One thing I know is different is the resistance of the heating element between the TS-100 tips and the Hakko Tips (and maybe others tips also).
If they are a different resistance then I wouldn’t use Hakko tips even with the 3D printed adapter that some recommend.  The Hakko tips are 8 Ohms, using the wrong tips or aftermarket tips with a different resistance will damage the mosfets.

If yours is new, I would be curious to see what you measure the  TS100 tips at?
You can check the tips resistance like in this this video.
https://youtu.be/dYjMsuih01A?t=10m6s

I’ve done a few solder iron measuring with a DMM a long time ago, it takes patients as you see in the clock time passing in Joes video to reach temp. The drop of solder helps with the heat thermal transfer from the tip. Unlike Joe, at the time I was new to the hobby and wasn’t smart enough to hold the iron steady by resting it on an aluminum block and being patient. I was looking for more of an instant reading. It’s a lot more difficult hand held like Big Clive and I both tried. I did it, but experienced the same issue Clive had with random readings until you find that perfect spot and have steady hands.

It can be done easier with something like a fake FG-100. I don’t support fake forgery products, but I don’t judge either and the cost of some items like a real FG-100 can be to expensive and over kill for the hobby that doesn’t need perfect scientific accuracy. These are both fake with different circuit boards inside and they worked fine. Not scientific exact 0.025% accuracy and tolerance fine, more like a  “Good enough” fine and faster then using a DMM.
https://youtu.be/gEeaWQLXYoM?t=8m28s

The sensors only last a few uses according to the Hakko official manual. If you use a flux infused wick to clean the solder off the sensor pad before storing it they should last longer. If you decide to use a fake FG-100 I would recommend getting authentic sensors. They seem to last longer then the fake sensors, and a few of the fake ones were defective. Something like these from an authorized Hakko dealer:
https://www.tequipment.net/Hakko191-212.html?rrec=true
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 07:54:49 pm by Scottjd »
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Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2018, 12:04:30 am »
It’s not a Pace iron, the TS100 is based on the newer direct drive tips, similar to the Hakko T12’s. The temp on the iron handle is supposedly accurate to a few degrees Fahrenheit.
The other option is that the TS100 is just another piece of Chinese finest craftmanship...... ;)

Thanks, that’s very helpful!

Can I ask why your trying to measure the temp?
So I’m assuming your trying to measure this tip temp because it’s not working as you expect it should? I’ve done some feaserch in this iron lately, this is what I know that could help you.

Considering the TS100 iron that doesn’t come with a power supply the biggest issue people seem to experience with them is not using the correct power supply. A weaker supply may not be able to hold the temp accurately with big ground planes. What I know is the TS-100 recommends 40 Watts power supply as being ample enough to drive it for most people and because it’s a common laptop power supply like most at 19V, 2.1 amps.
The manual states it can run the voltage range of 12VDC to 24VDC. But it will use up to 65 watts of power. Some videos focus on the voltage, but it’s about the total power and wattage that the TS-100 will function differently for people.

If your trying to run it with a hobby RC LiPo battery then you want to focus on the constant amperage the cells are rated to discharge at. Since it can drain up to 65 Watts of power, you want the batter to be able to provide at least 65 Watts total constant power or you may damage the cell by over discharging them to fast when the ts-100 first start up to heat up the tip. A third part firmware has a setting for this so you can tell the iron what battery your using for a 1S, 2S, 3S cells, this also monitors the voltage of the lack so you don’t over discharge the cells.
I think it might even have a setting for different resistance tips, but don’t quote me on this since I don’t own one and have not tried one. I have to assume it changes the duty cycle to the mosfets for other tips at a different resistance so the mosfets don’t overheat? Not sure, since I didn’t program the open source firmware, but I know a lot of people that say it’s has a lot more features and works much better then the stock firmware.
Firmware: https://github.com/Ralim/ts100

The tips are like the Hakko T12/T15, but they might be a different resistance. I sent know, since I don’t own one. The amount of copper in the tip, the wire used for the heating element and other things can be different. One thing I know is different is the resistance of the heating element between the TS-100 tips and the Hakko Tips (and maybe others tips also).
If they are a different resistance then I wouldn’t use Hakko tips even with the 3D printed adapter that some recommend.  The Hakko tips are 8 Ohms, using the wrong tips or aftermarket tips with a different resistance will damage the mosfets.

If yours is new, I would be curious to see what you measure the  TS100 tips at?
You can check the tips resistance like in this this video.
https://youtu.be/dYjMsuih01A?t=10m6s

I’ve done a few solder iron measuring with a DMM a long time ago, it takes patients as you see in the clock time passing in Joes video to reach temp. The drop of solder helps with the heat thermal transfer from the tip. Unlike Joe, at the time I was new to the hobby and wasn’t smart enough to hold the iron steady by resting it on an aluminum block and being patient. I was looking for more of an instant reading. It’s a lot more difficult hand held like Big Clive and I both tried. I did it, but experienced the same issue Clive had with random readings until you find that perfect spot and have steady hands.

It can be done easier with something like a fake FG-100. I don’t support fake forgery products, but I don’t judge either and the cost of some items like a real FG-100 can be to expensive and over kill for the hobby that doesn’t need perfect scientific accuracy. These are both fake with different circuit boards inside and they worked fine. Not scientific exact 0.025% accuracy and tolerance fine, more like a  “Good enough” fine and faster then using a DMM.
https://youtu.be/gEeaWQLXYoM?t=8m28s

The sensors only last a few uses according to the Hakko official manual. If you use a flux infused wick to clean the solder off the sensor pad before storing it they should last longer. If you decide to use a fake FG-100 I would recommend getting authentic sensors. They seem to last longer then the fake sensors, and a few of the fake ones were defective. Something like these from an authorized Hakko dealer:
https://www.tequipment.net/Hakko191-212.html?rrec=true

Lots of good info there should help someone, I basically have covered every item you listed there.
My goal in above posts was simply to test temperature accuracy using my DMM with its included thermocoupler. At this point in time I have no plans on using Hakko tips in my TS100, though folks are doing it, the ohms are close. I listed my ohm tip readings here:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/choosingunderstanding-the-right-powersuply-for-the-ts100/msg1473804/#msg1473804
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2018, 02:07:04 am »
My TS100 measures just fine with a K-type thermocouple, albeit it a little low (295 C when set at 300 C). Reading is very stable.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2018, 12:52:00 am »
This guys site was recommended by YouTube.  I've been watching some of his antenna videos and noticed this one about measuring tip temperatures.   



How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2018, 01:11:32 am »
Scott's video comparing a couple of counterfeit FG-100's.   

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2018, 04:20:57 am »
Thanks Joe, I’ve seen the 2nd video, but not the 1st one. After you helped me, a few posts above, I stumbled on a very old post here (I did not bookmark it, and in subsequent searches I can’t find it, so I can’t link it), but this person simply split the two thermocoupler wires apart, and stuck the iron tip between the wires, as close as possible to the thermocoupler end ball. Did it with tip clean, and then added some solder like Joe showed me, and the tip temp on the DMM, was bang on EXACT to the temp setting on my TS100 iron! Since I doubt I’ll be doing tip temp tests often, I’m not going to bother buying, even the cheap Hakko clone meters. That old post, and Joes video proved to me, you can get accurate temp readings with a thermocoupler and DMM. I’m satisfied that my TS100 is very accurate, which is what I was looking to confirm.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2018, 01:14:35 am »
Do I need to run a test with my old Pace powering up?   He digs in.


How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVBlog BM235
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2018, 01:55:20 am »
I would hope the newer type, direct temp tips would do better in similar tests. Good video, thanks Joe.
 


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