Author Topic: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E  (Read 14401 times)

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Offline Mortymore

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2019, 11:30:02 pm »
For serial decoding it's not a requirement, if the external trigger will help.

sds1202x-e
https://www.siglent.eu/sds1202x-e.html

Online tautech

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2019, 11:35:01 pm »
Do you really must have 4 channels for serial work?
What protocols do need you work with ?

For serial decoding it's not a requirement, if the external trigger will help.

sds1202x-e
https://www.siglent.eu/sds1202x-e.html

Last time I checked we couldn't use Ext trigger for Decode in Siglents.

I'll get a SDS1202X-E out and take a look to see if anything's changed.

@ alpher, any particular protocol you want a screenshot of ?

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Online nctnico

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2019, 11:36:32 pm »
But not 4 channels.
Yep.
Channels, BW or memory. Pick any two.
AFAIK the GDS1054B can be hacked to 200MHz but that will be supported on 2 channels only due to limited samplerate with 3 or more channels active.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mortymore

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2019, 11:45:18 pm »

Last time I checked we couldn't use Ext trigger for Decode in Siglents.


Hum... I thought that for SPI, 3 channels  (or 2+EXT) would be required, but seems I might be mistaken then, and extra channels are just handy.

Offline alpherTopic starter

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2019, 11:53:48 pm »
Do you really must have 4 channels for serial work?
What protocols do need you work with ?

For serial decoding it's not a requirement, if the external trigger will help.

sds1202x-e
https://www.siglent.eu/sds1202x-e.html

Last time I checked we couldn't use Ext trigger for Decode in Siglents.

I'll get a SDS1202X-E out and take a look to see if anything's changed.

@ alpher, any particular protocol you want a screenshot of ?

Nothing in particular, maybe can?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2019, 11:53:56 pm »
Even so with only 2 channels you run out of steam quickly. Even with 4 channels I try to use least channels as possible for decoding. Often there are other signals of interest. I wouldn't buy a scope with less than 4 channels for developing circuits (and preferably I'd buy an MSO so there are digital channels as well).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline alpherTopic starter

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2019, 11:59:41 pm »
Even so with only 2 channels you run out of steam quickly. Even with 4 channels I try to use least channels as possible for decoding. Often there are other signals of interest. I wouldn't buy a scope with less than 4 channels for developing circuits (and preferably I'd buy an MSO so there are digital channels as well).

That is you, I most certainly can do with 2+ 1 .
 

Offline Mortymore

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2019, 12:36:31 am »
I was checking the Siglent manual and it seems it is generic for the 1000X-E series since the manual states on the page 86:

Setup for SPI Signals

Setting the SPI (Serial Peripheral Interface) signal includes two steps:
connecting the CLK,  MISO,  MOSI  and  CS  signals  to  oscilloscope;  specifying  the  parameters  of  each input signal.


Of course this can't be applied to the 2 channel scope version, so, for SPI decoding with 2 channels, should be CLK mandatory and then MISO or MOSI, the one of interest, and SS ignored, as not really needed.
This would avoid the need for external trigger. Right?

I have to play more with decoding on my scope.  :-[

PS: I thought that it would be each chanel for MOSI, MISO and EXT for CLK. But guessing now that it's not that way.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 12:41:30 am by Mortymore »
 

Online tautech

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2019, 12:59:41 am »
I was checking the Siglent manual and it seems it is generic for the 1000X-E series since the manual states on the page 86:

Setup for SPI Signals

Setting the SPI (Serial Peripheral Interface) signal includes two steps:
connecting the CLK,  MISO,  MOSI  and  CS  signals  to  oscilloscope;  specifying  the  parameters  of  each input signal.


Of course this can't be applied to the 2 channel scope version, so, for SPI decoding with 2 channels, should be CLK mandatory and then MISO or MOSI, the one of interest, and SS ignored, as not really needed.
This would avoid the need for external trigger. Right?

I have to play more with decoding on my scope.  :-[

PS: I thought that it would be each chanel for MOSI, MISO and EXT for CLK. But guessing now that it's not that way.
Correct, there is no provision (with current latest firmware) to use EXT for any of the Decode Clock Sense.
So when we assign the channels in Decode, EXT is not available to select.
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Online tautech

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2019, 01:09:46 am »
Nothing in particular, maybe CAN ?
CAN bus

Suitably stable triggering with just the correct Edge setting and some Holdoff. Zoom mode.


Decode ON.



List ON
The grayed out line represents the packet after the trigger point and so those that come before it are pre-trigger and those after post-trigger. It is always 1/2 way through the List. You can see this relationship in the timestamps.


Appropriate settings added in the Trigger menu (can be transferred with just a button press while in Decode menu)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 01:24:47 am by tautech »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2019, 01:13:54 am »
I suppose you can also trigger on specific CAN messages (address)? Usually there are several devices with different messages on a CAN bus so being able to trigger on specific messages is very handy (understatement) when dealing with a CAN bus.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2019, 01:19:05 am »
I suppose you can also trigger on specific CAN messages (address)? Usually there are several devices with different messages on a CAN bus so being able to trigger on specific messages is very handy (understatement) when dealing with a CAN bus.
Yes, see last screenshot where the various Decode CAN trigger options are showing. They each have a further in-depth menu.
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Offline alpherTopic starter

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2019, 01:22:49 am »
Looks really good, are these screen shots from SDS1202X-E ?
 

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2019, 01:26:17 am »
One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2019, 01:35:58 am »
Looks really good, are these screen shots from SDS1202X-E ?
Yep, bright and shiny straight out of the box. ~ 1 month since production.

One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.
No fix required, it's Siglent's way of doing the same thing.

There is a small off-display decode and I've shown that in previous posts.

There are many tricks one can use to use a scopes feature set and IIRC rf-loop decoded 1000 packets into the memory......but that may have been with the SDS1104X-E, I'd have to hunt the post out to check.
Here:
SDS1104X-E
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/(ask)-about-my-oscilloscope-i-recently-bought/msg2319450/#msg2319450
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 01:42:30 am by tautech »
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Offline Mortymore

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2019, 09:56:02 am »
Dave Jones might be of some help about decoding on Siglent 1000X-E



I saw this video long time ago, but forgotten about it  :palm:

PS: Note however, that some things may have changed in the meantime due to firmware upgrades
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 09:59:24 am by Mortymore »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2019, 10:08:24 am »
One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.
No fix required, it's Siglent's way of doing the same thing.
I was hoping Siglent had abandoned that but appearantly not. Too bad because every other oscilloscope I know of decodes the entire memory.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2019, 10:10:32 am »
One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.

One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.
No fix required, it's Siglent's way of doing the same thing.
I was hoping Siglent had abandoned that but appearantly not. Too bad because every other oscilloscope I know of decodes the entire memory.

SDS1000X-E decode works always with full memory. This have been discussed several times over long time. I do not understand why you spread this question/bullshit in every corner time after time.

And more. what ever is current used acquisition memory lenght it is always same as visible trace length when scope is running without anmy exception. (no hidden unvisible part of trace out of display) Sigleent have selectet this method and that's it. Others can do how they want, Siglent do not need copycat these.
Of course all methods have advantages and disadvvantages. But as told and proofed many times, Siglent decode online or offline full memory length as long as there is not other things what reduce decoded data length. Also it do it from history.
If it is impossible to understand that whole memory length is always on screen when scope is running then - no one can help.  Of course in stop mode diplay can be small portion of whole length but still it decode from acquisition memory and not from display buffer.

Of course you can  still continue endless this bullshit. I hope it make you happy. Period.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 10:23:26 am by rf-loop »
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Online tautech

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2019, 10:11:09 am »
Dave Jones might be of some help about decoding on Siglent 1000X-E



I saw this video long time ago, but forgotten about it  :palm:

PS: Note however, that some things may have changed in the meantime due to firmware upgrades
Heaps has changed. First, that was a pre-release SDS1102X-E that has never been released into western markets where we have only ever seen SDS1202X-E.
10 specifically identified Decode bug fixes listed in the firmware release notes:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/09/SDS1000X-E_Release_Notes.pdf

One need always take old videos with a grain of salt until some simple homework is done.
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Offline Mortymore

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2019, 10:23:38 am »
One need always take old videos with a grain of salt until some simple homework is done.

For sure!
That's why I added the note about firmware upgrades may have changed things. That, and because I knew when you saw this, you would bring some clarification.  ;)
Thanks
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2019, 10:55:13 am »
One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.

One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.
No fix required, it's Siglent's way of doing the same thing.
I was hoping Siglent had abandoned that but appearantly not. Too bad because every other oscilloscope I know of decodes the entire memory.

SDS1000X-E decode works always with full memory. This have been discussed several times over long time. I do not understand why you spread this question/bullshit in every corner time after time.
You never understood how decoding should work. The way Siglent works makes operating the oscilloscope way more tedious compared to other oscilloscopes. There is no argueing around that. Get some other oscilloscopes and you'll see why. And 'full memory' means full memory and not a part of what is on screen. I nearly forgot about all the strange ways Siglent scopes work compared to other brands so thanks for reminding me. Siglent doesn't want to copycat so they put square wheels on their car  :palm:
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 11:19:55 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2019, 11:42:37 am »
One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.
Nctnico,
for some time now I've been meaning to ask you what do you mean by "decode entire memory"?

Let's take single shot mode.
Scope takes a sample that is a time length of screen. There is no data before or after what is on the screen. I don't need data before or after what I instructed scope to capture, perfectly aligned to trigger event. Screen is entire memory. In segmented mode, there will be several such screens each complete memory for that captured segment. Also each segment aligned around it's trigger even, as instructed.

So if I wan't to grab 100 ms worth of data, I set scope to grab 100 ms worth of data. There are 10 SPI packets in there for instance. I open table decode view and I see all of them. In graphic decode, I don't se anything, it's too small. So I zoom in to individual packet, and I also see graphic decode for the zoomed portion, together with full table for the whole capture.
Good decoders will be able to handle when you zoom in to two partial packets, and will show correctly decodes for only portion of packet on the screen.

This is something that didn't work on Rigol DS1000Z. It would properly decode in the table long full screen of data, but as soon as you would zoom in on portion, it would only decode zoomed in part like the rest of the buffer didn't exist. Also decodes didn't work for segmented memory.
That is a bad implementation, absolutely agree.

But that was only 1000Z. Other Rigols (2000, 4000) this worked well. I don't know, but Siglents shouldn't have that problem either.

Is that what you mean?

Or you are referring to how with Keysight , on a stopped capture, if you change timebase after capture, it still shows a full table decode for whole captured initial screen, although you are showing only portion of capture? That is pretty much equivalent to using zoom, but without overview window.  no, wait, that is exactly the same thing as using zoom without overview window.
I could see it being useful to optimize screen usage, but to me using zoom has advantage that i have zoom overview window so I know where I am in the capture.

Regards,
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2019, 11:53:19 am »
One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.

One of the things to look out for is to see whether an oscilloscope decodes the entire memory or only what is on screen. I don't know if Siglent still only decodes what is on screen or whether they have fixed this. A work-around is to use the zoom function (as Tautech shows) on the Siglent scopes but that eats away part of the screen.
No fix required, it's Siglent's way of doing the same thing.
I was hoping Siglent had abandoned that but appearantly not. Too bad because every other oscilloscope I know of decodes the entire memory.

SDS1000X-E decode works always with full memory. This have been discussed several times over long time. I do not understand why you spread this question/bullshit in every corner time after time.
You never understood how decoding should work. The way Siglent works makes operating the oscilloscope way more tedious compared to other oscilloscopes. There is no argueing around that. Get some other oscilloscopes and you'll see why. And 'full memory' means full memory and not a part of what is on screen. I nearly forgot about all the strange ways Siglent scopes work compared to other brands so thanks for reminding me. Siglent doesn't want to copycat so they put square wheels on their car  :palm:

It decode full current acquisition memory length. Your continuous claim or suspect have been that it do not. It decode full acquisition memory length - only exception is if maximum amount of decoded data is reached what limit can see in next images.

In next two images. This is only limit when it do not decode full memory length.
There is decoded 2 fully independent I2C bus. Other decoder (2) reach max 1000msg (32000 bytes) around half of memory and decoder 1 nearly end of memory reach limit 1000msg (including 32000 bytes also).
Of course decode result can not see in bottom because density. But decode table include all but it can display only one selected decoder. Next image show same zoomed to details and all is decoded. I can not see any reason why we need remove this upper half of image what show whole memory length. It also give information to user even if in this case not much. What it helps if we remove this whole memory diosplay. Many scopes leave lot of signal out from display. Yes I know it take some processing power for display whole length and map it for display without decimation. Why want make user blind for more or less amount of whole length and then advertise we decode full memory like some miracle happen. Oh well, Siglent do not even need advertise it. It is natural that all displayed and so also whole memory length is decoded without any extra explanation that we decode full length. It do it always and also give user some overall vision about what happen there in whole length, what some others want hide, example some pause in transmission or so on. Why anyone want make user blind and hide part of trace out from display.





Same with SDS1202X-E but now only one decoder can use of course, no possible for two simultaneous independent decoder due to lack of channels in this case.


I'm very interested to see after someone repeat this same example with EDUX1002A or GDS-1054B.
Least this Keyshit EDUX drops out like chicken if it try fly. How about OP's third example model GoodWill 1054B.



« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 12:17:11 pm by rf-loop »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2019, 12:13:47 pm »
That is what I wrote: you need the zoom-mode work-around which eats away screen space.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Everyday bench scope, a 3 way race, EDUX1002A, GDS-1054B, SDS1202X-E
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2019, 12:32:54 pm »
That is what I wrote: you need the zoom-mode work-around which eats away screen space.

It's not a workaround. It is exactly the same thing, except with more or less screen space.
And if you want to have an overview where you are, zoom mode is a plus, a good thing not a defect.
Of course, saving screen space is good too.

But it decodes whole memory. With different user interface presentation.

Basically, if they could minimize (hide) overview window, that would satisfy your requirement.

And that would be very nice and would be my suggestion to Siglent.
 


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