Author Topic: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol  (Read 1092454 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2625 on: December 02, 2014, 09:01:21 pm »
I've got a question: how good is the math function of the DS2xxx?
I try to measure current, voltage and multiply both to see the power
on all 3 DSOs all channels and math are set to RMS.
But only the Rigol shows a 10-20W different calculated value
the math also changes with V/div resolution on the Rigol, that doesn't happen on the other 2 DSOs
@Nikwing
 Please show your display.

Here are some displays of multiply 2 signals
  1,2 Multiply using Ax B math
  3,4 multiply using  Advanced math  CH1 x Ch2
  5    Shows the Math does not change with different V/div Scale (green is reference before change)

Note: The Math uses the instantaneous  values , to get RMS add the calculation in the equation
         What FW version is your DSO?
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline NikWing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2626 on: December 02, 2014, 09:20:00 pm »
Teneyes, thanks for your reply!

I have to take the screenshots tomorrow, DSO is at work

firmware is 03_00_01_03 I think, that's the file I currently have on my HDD, I think I've seen a newer firmware while browsing this thread yesterday, but had no time to update yet

so I have to go to advanced math and enter some formula?
I'm not sure about the settings on the yokogawa (it displays Vrms, Irms and W/math(1x2)rms on screen), but the on the philips I just went to the math menu, enabled it and selected ch1xch2, both show the same result, just the Rigol shows something else
but well, more details tomorrow :)
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2627 on: December 03, 2014, 02:26:14 am »
RMS of  [ Sin (ch1) x sin(Ch2 - pi/2) ]

Note  , using HiRes
         Same for FW 00.02.00.01.03, Fw 00.03.00.01.03, and FW 00.03.01.00.04
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 02:43:24 am by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2628 on: December 03, 2014, 02:33:07 am »
Just multiplying positive and negative values
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline NikWing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2629 on: December 03, 2014, 09:46:35 am »
ok, so here it is:

2 screenshots, one from the Yokogawa and the other is from the Rigol.
What I've noticed: if I set math to Ch1xCh2, the displayed value (shows 604W) is a little higher than the value it shows when I set advanced math and enter Ch1 * Ch2 (shows around 596W)

The Yokogawa and Philips both show around 550W

Looks like I can't set something like RMS(CH1) * RMS(CH2) in advanced math.

My problem is, I have to adjust and measure the power of a ballast and I want to achieve the same "accuracy" I have with my workplace DSO (the value is important for a customer)

edit: btw, setting para.save, footer/header on or off has no effect here :o
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 10:20:03 am by NikWing »
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2630 on: December 04, 2014, 01:06:31 am »
The Yokogawa and Philips both show around 550W
Looks like I can't set something like RMS(CH1) * RMS(CH2) in advanced math.
Yokogawa    131  x 4.36  = 571.16
      
Rigol      133.8 x 4.523 = 605.1774

The 'Math' multiplication is the same and correct

It looks like the Calculation of RMS is different for the different DSOs
or the measurement technique was different?
See PIx from User's guide


whick is correct??? :-//

Below is display with AxB  and RMS (AxB)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 01:11:33 am by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline NikWing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2631 on: December 04, 2014, 05:03:59 am »
I have no idea :)
I guess I'll use the old DSO until I found out what's making the difference
(I'm no pro, I kinda learn new things by doing it when it's needed)

just an idea: could it be that the Rigol has more points to work with? If I see it correctly, the Yoko just has 10k points for that measurement/calculation and the Rigol way more?
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2632 on: December 04, 2014, 07:25:10 am »
A point to note with Rigol DS2000 using RMS measurements
watch the GATED AREA

Below are 3 displays of a 1400Hz,  2Vpp Sinewave, which should have a 0.707 RMS voltage:

     1.  Shows RMS =0.708   w/ 102us/div   = equal to 2 full cycles
     2.  Shows RMS =0.681   w/ 114us/div   more then 2 full cycles
     3.  Shows RMS =0.7377  w/ 87.5us/div  less  then 2 full cycles

So with the DSO the RMS calculation depends on display size
and the Yokogawa has 10 divisions
but the  Rigol  has  14 divisions which changes the RMS Calculations

@Nikwing
, you may wish to set the Rigol time base to show the same wave as the Yokogawa
   I hope that helps

EDIT:
with Square wave a Rigol RMS calculation;  the change depends on DC offset
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 05:50:47 pm by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline NikWing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2633 on: December 04, 2014, 03:52:34 pm »
ahh that makes sense :o

but I think I found the real reason:
I "calibrated" the current clamp and the differential probe I use. For current, I measured 5.00 A(dc) flowing through the current clamp with a multimeter and then compared both values on the DSOs
the Rigol shows 5.12A, so I used advanced math and multiplicated it with something 0.98 and suddently I had the value that I measured with the other 2 DSOs.

for voltage, I measured 130V(ac)/50Hz with the multimeter. Rigol and Yoko both measured 140Vpp.
I set measurements to RMS on both scopes and the Rigol displays 49.5V and the Yoko shows 48.7V (if I calculate it correctly: 1.414*49.5*2 = 139,986, and 137.7V, so the Rigol is much closer to 140)

is it normal that my Rigol measures a higher value than my other DSOs? and is there a way to calibrate it to show the correct value instead of using corrections in math?

and if I may ask that: saving s png screenshot with header, footer and (I currently don't remember the word) the text file enabled doesn't work here. the png looks the same all the time and no txt file is being created. Is that a bug?
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2634 on: December 04, 2014, 05:28:07 pm »
is it normal that my Rigol measures a higher value than my other DSOs? and is there a way to calibrate it to show the correct value instead of using corrections in math?
I am not sure.
Have you preformed the Rigol  'Selfcal"  recently
if I may ask that: saving s png screenshot with header, footer and (I currently don't remember the word) the text file enabled doesn't work here. the png looks the same all the time and no txt file is being created. Is that a bug?
  For screen captures I use Marmad's RUU utility ,Get it Here  . For quick and easy reports with 3-D and animated Gif
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 05:31:11 pm by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline jlmoon

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 609
  • Country: us
  • If you fail the first time, keep trying!
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2635 on: December 04, 2014, 05:49:53 pm »
is it normal that my Rigol measures a higher value than my other DSOs? and is there a way to calibrate it to show the correct value instead of using corrections in math?
I am not sure.
Have you preformed the Rigol  'Selfcal"  recently


I have had to use the 'Selfcal' when in doubt on my DS2202 as well.  I have found it better to terminate the inputs with a 50 ohm bnc term device before I Self-Cal as well.  Keeps any extraneous noise from creeping in on those inputs while in cal mode. 

« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 09:44:34 pm by jlmoon »
Recharged Volt-Nut
 

Offline NikWing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2636 on: December 04, 2014, 06:16:51 pm »
I've used self-cal, yes (and I mentioned that I kinda hate it "reboots" afterwards and forgets the settings I made before self-cal)

selc-cal says something like "remove all inputs from the DSO before self-cal", I think I'll try it though
I guess I can use 50 Ohm-terminators from old network-cards for that?

Teneyes: yeah, but you need network connection to use that software :)
but why does the menu offer 3 options that have no effect ^^
 

Offline NikWing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2637 on: December 04, 2014, 08:08:14 pm »
okay, I rephrase: it needs a PC ^^
 

Offline Purevector

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2638 on: December 07, 2014, 07:20:50 pm »
I have found a bug related to switching between roll and YT mode in the newest firmware.  Here is the description:

1. In roll mode with vertical scale set to 5mV/div - Signal is ~18mV
2. Switch to YT mode, scale still indicates 5mV/div - Signal is ~8mV (???what???)
3. Change vertical scale to 10mV/div - Signal looks unchanged, but measurements updated ~17mV
4. Changes vertical scale to 5mV/div - Signal appears and measures as it should ~18mV

In summary, when switching from roll mode to Y-T while at 5mV/div (lowest setting, 10x probe) the scope adjusts the physical gain to 10mV/div for no apparent reason, and does not change scale readout.  Adjusting vertical scale returns the scope to the correct gain.

See attached pics.
 

Offline NikWing

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Country: de
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2639 on: December 07, 2014, 09:16:35 pm »
just a question, IIRC this was being talked about here, but I can't find it and it's not in the bug list, either:
if I have some random signal on the screen, like ripple noise and I push the stop button, I see multiple lines on screen until I change the time base (and back to where it was)
is that a bug?

and I add another question about triggering:
I've attached a random picture. Usually I would trigger at A
is it possible to trigger at B although there's a higher peak in the signal? Is it possible to tell the scope to always trigger at a desirered point on the curve?
Would I set the trigger level to let's say B and then use delay/offset or nth recurrence, or is there another way?

And, would it be possible to analyze just the part I marked with C, as in pretending that this is the real signal (which kinda "repeats" between B and A)?
I don't know how to phrase that D:

I hope it's okay to ask all of that here, else please tell me where I could do it. Like I said, I usually learn things when I need them, so this might be a silly question after all ^^;
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2640 on: December 07, 2014, 09:30:52 pm »
and I push the stop button, I see multiple lines on screen until I change the time base (and back to where it was)
is that a bug?

When you first stop the DSO, you see the compilation of the intensity buffer (all captured waveforms during the last period). If you change time base or scale, you just see the very last captured waveform.

Quote
and I add another question about triggering:
I've attached a random picture. Usually I would trigger at A
is it possible to trigger at B although there's a higher peak in the signal? Is it possible to tell the scope to always trigger at a desirered point on the curve?
Would I set the trigger level to let's say B and then use delay/offset or nth recurrence, or is there another way?

There are different ways to do it with different trigger types. I'd probably use Pulse with trigger delay or Nth Edge with idle. The DS2000 manual gives pretty good images for each trigger type.

Quote
And, would it be possible to analyze just the part I marked with C, as in pretending that this is the real signal (which kinda "repeats" between B and A)?
I don't know how to phrase that D:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'analyze'. Of course, you can adjust the trigger and delay so that the part labelled C basically fills the screen.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 09:32:45 pm by marmad »
 

Offline ted572

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 399
  • Country: us
  • Radio Communications Equipment/System Design Engr.
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2641 on: December 08, 2014, 12:21:05 am »
I have found a bug related to switching between roll and YT mode in the newest firmware.  Here is the description:
NOT a Bug, but you found the Limits of the Specifications
the 1st two displays show no error at 18mv, Roll to YT ( noise)
As you can see there is  No error in the Scale

Now read the Specification in next Pix
because you are using 10x your input is 1.8mV, which is below Spec.

Pix 5 & 6 confirm your displays  with 10X
 ( I think I saw this and reported it to Rigol as the DSO is still triggering , but they responded that the input is out of Spec)
I hope that Helps

Teneyes:

This also looks like a Bug to me.  Please, why would Trigger level effect the vertical display/measurement when switching from 'ROLL' to 'Y-T' Mode?

   Thank you, ted572
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2642 on: December 08, 2014, 03:42:26 am »
Teneyes:  This also looks like a Bug to me.  Please, why would Trigger level effect the vertical display/measurement when switching from 'ROLL' to 'Y-T' Mode?

CORRECTION , Yes a rare bug
Thanks Ted,  I removed any Trigger level causes by using External Trigger (5 V sync pulse)
Also set the input Scaling to  1x
Used a 2 cycle burst to set roll and trigger time

I find the bug of 1/2 scaling occurs for this Setup
                1. Lowest V/Div scale  (500uV/div @ 1X,  5mV/div @ 10X..... )
                2.  After Switching from Roll to Y-T     
The scale is corrected after:
        1  The scale is clicked lower (still the Same 500uV/div)
        2  The vertical position is changed
        3. The vertical position is  Zeroed
        4. The trigger position is  Changed or Zeroed
        5. Chan 2 ( even Off) position is Zeroed
I hope that would help Rigol narrow the code that needs to be called when switching to Y-T mode

The 3 Displays  with 3.6mV,
    Roll mode 
    Y-T mode
    Y-T mode  after a knob click

Edit: I have reported this to Rigol , anyone with D2000A , wish to confirm This bug
Edit: Occurs when  Chan 1 only is on
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 05:16:58 am by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2643 on: December 08, 2014, 08:28:57 am »
I find the very osbcure small bug of 1/2 scaling occurs
Update  More conditions

I find the bug of 1/2 scaling occurs for this Setup
                DS2000 system Power on set to Default
                1. Lowest V/Div scale  (500uV/div @ 1X,  5mV/div @ 10X..... )
                2.  After Switching from Roll to Y-T
                3. Even though Chan 2 is Off (Chan 2 is NOT at 500uV/Div)
     
The scale is corrected after:
        1  The Ch 1 scale is clicked lower (still the Same 500uV/div)
        2  The vertical position is changed
        3. The vertical position is  Zeroed
        4. The trigger position is  Changed or Zeroed
        5. Chan 2 ( even Off) position is Zeroed

        6. Changing Chan2 scale to lowest even while Chan 2 is off (Parameter overrange)
            Stops the re-Scaling when switching from Roll to Y-T


I hope that would help Rigol narrow the code that needs to be called when switching to Y-T mode
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 09:14:38 am by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Purevector

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2644 on: December 08, 2014, 03:40:20 pm »
Teneyes:  This also looks like a Bug to me.  Please, why would Trigger level effect the vertical display/measurement when switching from 'ROLL' to 'Y-T' Mode?

CORRECTION , Yes a rare bug
Thanks Ted,  I removed any Trigger level causes by using External Trigger (5 V sync pulse)
Also set the input Scaling to  1x
Used a 2 cycle burst to set roll and trigger time

I find the bug of 1/2 scaling occurs for this Setup
                1. Lowest V/Div scale  (500uV/div @ 1X,  5mV/div @ 10X..... )
                2.  After Switching from Roll to Y-T     
The scale is corrected after:
        1  The scale is clicked lower (still the Same 500uV/div)
        2  The vertical position is changed
        3. The vertical position is  Zeroed
        4. The trigger position is  Changed or Zeroed
        5. Chan 2 ( even Off) position is Zeroed
I hope that would help Rigol narrow the code that needs to be called when switching to Y-T mode

The 3 Displays  with 3.6mV,
    Roll mode 
    Y-T mode
    Y-T mode  after a knob click

Edit: I have reported this to Rigol , anyone with D2000A , wish to confirm This bug
Edit: Occurs when  Chan 1 only is on

My unit is a DS2000A; this has nothing to do with triggering, so lets not confuse the issue... it is repeatable in auto trigger mode even if the trigger level is set too high.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2645 on: January 01, 2015, 12:01:44 am »
New Firmware for DS1000Z and MSO/DS2000 Here

« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 01:05:43 pm by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline sm5uiu

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 6
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2646 on: January 05, 2015, 03:59:06 pm »
Frequency counter?

Seems to work ok using DC trigger (tested up to 300MHz) but when switching to AC it works up to about 60MHz?
But when using "Display all" the frequency seems ok in AC trigger mode.
(Latest jitter fix firmware. Im not sure if it behaved the same way with the "older")

/Sam

Image below. 300MHz/1VRMS external 50ohm load using a "T" at the scope. (Aeroflex 2023A signal generator)
Will work up to 58MHz when in AC trigger mode before it fails. (as mentioned before the "display all measurements" works)

« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 09:22:18 am by sm5uiu »
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2647 on: January 06, 2015, 08:38:17 am »
Frequency counter?
(Latest jitter fix firmware. Im not sure if it behaved the same way with the "older")
Yes a Limit to the Maximum Frequency that can be Counted!
Yes same as older FW,  I have seen this and there is a Limit to the Counter Max Frequency ( on AC triggering)
I see a bit higher limit,  if Freq. Counter is set to Chan 2  as the DSO is triggering on CHan1 (80 MHz) (AC or DC Trigger)
I see a bit higher limit,  if Freq. Counter is set to EXT  as the DSO is triggering on CHan1 (60 MHz)  (AC or DC Trigger)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 08:59:45 am by Teneyes »
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2648 on: January 06, 2015, 09:27:56 am »
Does any one else find the way the Invert input is implemented by Rigol as disconcerting?
The DS200 just inverts the trace on the  display and Not an inverting of the input, such that the trace is shown with a falling edge trigger when the Trigger is set to be a Rising edge trigger.  See Pix.

I have not used any other DSO, so I am asking all
"Is this the Standard way to implement the INVERT feature on a DSO?"
I went and Dug out my out Tek analog scope , and it applies the Trigger mode after the input is Inverted ..

Is Rigol doing it different?.
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #2649 on: January 08, 2015, 12:43:02 pm »
What I learned today was creating a comb of frequencies  with a train of short pulses.
And it was nice to see the FFT of my DS2000 shows the results.
Next I will try to test a circuit(filter) with pulses and my DSO

Below see 300nsec Pulses at:
1   2.5 usec period
2   5.0 usec period
3   10  usec  period
4   10  usec  period with more voltage
5   20  usec  period with more voltage

See a good Time/Frequency domain duality experiment by SignalPath Here
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf