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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 12:30:18 pm

Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 12:30:18 pm
Here are my first impressions and review of the Rigol DS2072 (plus added Sample Rate, Segment Number, Fastest Update Rates, 56MPt Acquistion Time Table, FFT Ranges, and High Res Bandwidths)

Firmware bugs / instructions for locating firmware version number / FW download links / instructions for upgrading/downgrading in a following post below (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

DS2000 hacks and keygens (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/)


Sorry about the image quality, but I still don't have an HD camera. Hopefully, now that I've finally gotten a DSO I want to keep, perhaps it can be next on my list of purchases  ;)

Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAY1GQEjrfc#)

Edit: A couple of things I forgot to mention in the review:

First - to address two things which Dave mentioned as annoyances in his 'Playing Around' video:
 1)  The buttons which are angled at the top - This didn't bother me at all; I've only hit Run/Stop accidentally one time so I guess I rest my hand in a slightly different way then Dave.
 2)  The dim LED light on the Channel/Decode select buttons - Dave is correct about this; the LEDs are rather dim but somehow my eyes became accustomed to spotting the difference between them on or off - and then I never thought about it again.

Secondly - to mention one more very clever detail that Rigol added that I (in my limited experience with DSOs) haven't seen before - the 'Clear' button (right alongside 'Auto, 'Run/Stop' and 'Single'. Given the amount of info you can jam on the screen in terms of Math, Reference waves, recalled traces, tables, graphs and decode information, it's great to have a big accessible button devoted to nothing but wiping the screen.

Edit2: I just wanted to mention that some of the features I thought were great might be SOP on higher-end DSOs - but since I'm late getting into DSOs (just been using analog scopes all my life) my review is from the perspective of someone new to the game - and only familiar with the lower cost models.

Also, I don't have the required equipment (or some of the specialized knowledge) to run serious bandwidth tests or to check channel separation, timebase accuracy, etc. I will leave those things to others. From my experience with Rigol so far, although they might not be the most open and responsive company to their customers, they appear to deliver what they advertise - so unless/until I hear otherwise, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that the product is operating within it's published specs. As far as I can tell (noise level, etc) everything appears very good.

Edit3: Rigol DS2000 series - sample rate for each selectable sample length:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49232)


Edit4: Rigol DS2000 series - maximum number of segments which can be recorded with each sample length:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49220)


Edit5: Rigol DS2000 series - acquisition time when using full 56MPt sample length:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49321)


Edit6: Rigol DS2000 series - comparing sample rates and waveform update rates of 56M vs AUTO/14MB at lower time base settings:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=70483)


Edit7: Rigol DS2000 series - waveform update rates of the DS2000 @ 14kPts/AUTO (single / dual channel - vectors / dots) - measured using a 1MHz sine wave input to channel 1.

(Chart has been removed until new one can be developed for latest FW. Rigol has substantially improved many rates at lower time base settings.)


Edit8: Rigol DS2000 series - FFT range at each time base setting (thanks to Teneyes):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54595)


Edit9: Rigol DS2000 series - Bandwidths of DSO when in High Res mode:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=68253)


Edit10: To take advantage of the power of the scope, I started writing software for it (and created a new thread for downloads (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/)). Attached is an example (sweep.gif) of something easy to create with the new UltraVision DSOs from Rigol: an animation. It can change the way we communicate captured oscilloscope data to each other.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on October 30, 2012, 02:04:34 pm
Thanks for the review!  It was great to see it in action and a few of the features like the graphing and more complex waveform test that really stand out.  The testing of its waveform capture rate was also really interesting, to find its "sweet spot" and see how it scaled so linearly with memory depth.  Overall a very useful review.

Jacob
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 02:14:25 pm
Method to Check FW Ver# or Upgrade/Downgrade FW plus FW Links (bottom of post)
Known Firmware Bugs/Issues (of the last two firmware releases / red indicates latest FW version available)

2) The way the scope handles intensity grading at time bases <= 50ns/div when two channels are enabled with Normal Sweep is not the same as all other modes - it feels incongruous and incorrect.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

14) When the RS-232 baud rate is set to AUTO 57600, it is incorrect. When set to USER 57600, it operates correctly.
[FW v.01.01.00.02]

15) Bus decoding does not decode the full ASCII set. Missing characters:[ . , : ; - _ ! $ % & / ( ) = ? ] - everything between square brackets (except spaces).
[FW v.01.01.00.02]

16) ANTI-ALIASING does not prevent waveform aliasing to any degree, although it can remove some image aliasing (e.g. moire patterns) under certain conditions.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

17) There is a visible offset from center position when using AC-coupled Triggers (including filtered LF and HF) at lower time bases (<= 2us/div), as well as serious jitter with certain settings.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

18) There is a bug when using DOTS mode with AUTO/14M/56M memory depths @ >= 5us/div. It affects the waveform update rate (much reduced) - and can also affect the visible display of the waveform.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

19) When in HighRes mode and reading display memory from the DSO with SCPI, if the time base is <= 20us, the DSO returns 1398 bytes instead of 1400.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

20) When reading display memory with SCPI while the DSO is STOPped and zooming out, the DSO returns (correctly) a decreasing number of display memory bytes until < 6, and then it incorrectly starts sending 1400 bytes every time (a nonsense waveform) instead of 2 (a single line).
[FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

21) Log() function in MATH -> Advanced -> Expression doesn't work.
[FW v.02.01.00.03]

22) All SCPI commands related to CAN triggering appear to be missing in the latest FW.
[FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

=====================================

To get the full firmware version info from the DSO, follow these instructions:

Go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger.
While keeping the Trigger menu open, you are going to use the 6th and 7th right-side menu buttons as follows:
Press the [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] buttons one after another quickly.
Then check additional info under System -> System Info.
You should see something like:

Software version: 00.01.01.00.02
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

If you DON'T see this detailed info = start again, and press those 4 buttons faster.

To escape from this mode, press again [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] while inside Trigger menu
- or reboot the scope.

=====================================

Firmware links:

FW#00.00.01.00.05 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-00_01_00_05.7z)

FW#00.01.00.00.03 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-01_00_00_03.7z)

FW#00.01.01.00.02 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-01_01_00_02.7z)

FW#00.02.01.00.03 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-02_01_00_03.7z)

FW#00.03.00.01.03 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-03_00_01_03.7z)

FW#00.03.01.00.04 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-03_01_00_04.7z)

=====================================

For those planning to upgrade/downgrade firmware:

Do the upgrade ONLY during bootup - not from the GUI/Menus/OS asking for file/etc. or you might lock up the scope - losing any trial options you have remaining - and requiring you to do the upgrade again anyway using the method listed below:

You do this by using two hands when booting up - one thumb on the 'Power On' switch - one thumb on the 'Help' button. When you press 'Power On', all of the scope LEDs will light for ONE SECOND - during that brief period, you must PRESS AND LET GO of the 'Help' button. It can be a little tricky, but if it works, bootup will stop before the Rigol logo with the 'SINGLE' button lit (if it doesn't, turn off power and try again until you get it). Then insert the USB stick with the file on it. The CH1 LED will flash as the DSO loads the file.

Once updating is finished, several of the LEDs will light up - and all flashing, etc. will stop. That means it's finished, so you can remove the USB stick and reboot - but please take notice of the following:

Note: Rigol has changed the the structure of unit settings stored in FRAM, so if you have upgraded/downgraded between the major versions of v.01 & v.02 (i.e. v.01.XX.XX.XX to v.02.XX.XX.XX - or vice-versa), it's a good idea to hold in the left-menu F6 button (sixth gray button down on left side of LCD) during the first reboot after loading (to clear FRAM) - otherwise the DSO can hang when switching between various menu items.

Finally, check your firmware version using the method listed above.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: digsys on October 30, 2012, 03:01:03 pm
I am still thinking of a Rigol 2000 or higher as a second scope (have the OWON SDS7102), mainly for the wfs/s
The 2 features I'd miss (unless I hack it) are battery backup and VGA op, which I depend on.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 03:18:12 pm
Thanks for the review!  It was great to see it in action and a few of the features like the graphing and more complex waveform test that really stand out.  The testing of its waveform capture rate was also really interesting, to find its "sweet spot" and see how it scaled so linearly with memory depth.  Overall a very useful review.

Jacob

Thanks Jacob.

IMO, there is nothing about this DSO that says 'Made in China' - except the silk-screened legend on the back  ;D   From the layout of the screen and front panel - to the UI design and feature selection - to the faint rumble of the cooling fan- it looks and feels 100% like a quality-made Western product. Given this - and it's massive feature list - I don't see anything else currently on the market that gives you anywhere close to the bang-per-buck.

I don't think anyone who has used the Rigol 1000 series or the Owon SDS series or the Hantek DSO5000 series - and then tried this scope - could possibly argue against the vast difference in using this scope.

The 2 features I'd miss (unless I hack it) are battery backup and VGA op, which I depend on.

Yes, I can understand the need for occasional portability.  I have a battery-powered Tektronix 212 analog scope for portable work - and although it's BW is small, it's double-insulated and can do floating measurements up to 600V above ground.

As far as the VGA option goes - I have to say it was one of those features (with the Owon) that was better in theory than in actual practice. Seeing a blown-up 800x600 image on a modern high-res LCD display looked vaguely video-arcadish - although for teaching purposes (i.e. projection) it seems necessary.

For me, better than VGA-out would be good software which extracts the waveform data and displays it in a window on a high-res screen. I haven't tried this yet, but the DS2000 seems much faster at transferring data off-scope, so I'm hoping to write efficient software which will do just this.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: drieg on October 30, 2012, 04:04:33 pm
Great review, thanks!  ;)
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 04:32:51 pm
Great review, thanks!  ;)

Thank you - for the great service and after-sales support with my questions and comments. I'm just happy that I could finally make a overwhelmingly positive review of a DSO - it would have been terrible to be disappointed a fourth time in a row  ;D
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Mechatrommer on October 30, 2012, 04:39:10 pm
ds2072 $899 http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html)
ds2202 $1835 http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2202.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2202.html)
thats more than doubled the price. hmmm, i dont know what caught mr drieg into here after all this while, hmmm.
i'm not sure i can afford the 2072 unless maybe some interesting event occurs ::)
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 05:04:28 pm
To new or prospective owners of the DS2000 wondering about 'restarting' trial options:or other hacks: check the following thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/)
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: AndyC_772 on October 30, 2012, 05:45:30 pm
I am still thinking of a Rigol 2000 or higher as a second scope (have the OWON SDS7102), mainly for the wfs/s
The 2 features I'd miss (unless I hack it) are battery backup and VGA op, which I depend on.
Have you looked at the 4000 series? They have VGA output on the back.

I use the VGA port on my Tek all the time - I have a 17" LCD on my bench which is much bigger and clearer than the scope's own built-in display.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 06:04:54 pm
The 2 features I'd miss (unless I hack it) are battery backup...

Just out of curiosity, I checked the published power specs:

Owon SDS7000/8000 series:<24W
Hantek DSO5000 series:<30W
Rigol DS1000 series:<50W
Rigol DS2000 series:<50W
Agilent DSOX2000 series:<100W
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Mechatrommer on October 30, 2012, 06:24:32 pm
Did you mean double the current price of the DS1052E?
no i mean double the price of the ds2202 200MHz scope. i know this color grading, spi serial capable dso, big screen etc is a different game compared to the 1052e. i was wondering what are the differences other than price between 2072 and 2202? is there hardware difference? they are all 2GSps.
no more :KEY:LOCK nonsense.
yeah i'll keep working around on that nonsense limit :P but not so frequently. i can see your work more seriously on arbitrary waves. with that nice color grading high wf/s rate, i wonder if it can do some freq domain like plot? like this tektroniks tds2024?
Analysis of Frequency Response of Filters using Sweep Signal - by Gautam (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb3cLtAtE1s#)
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: robrenz on October 30, 2012, 06:56:33 pm
arbitrary waves. with that nice color grading high wf/s rate, i wonder if it can do some freq domain like plot? like this tektroniks tds2024?

If I am understanding that video correctly (probably not  :-[) you can do the same thing on your 1052E.  He just matched the sweep generator sweep time to the scope full screen sweep time. and used external trigger from the sweep gen to trigger the scope. It is only a frequency domain plot because he correlated the sweep generator frequency sweep time to the horizontal time per division of the scope.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 07:25:43 pm
no i mean double the price of the ds2202 200MHz scope.
Yes, the price does seem to go up rather dramatically. I can think of three possible reasons:
1) They are undercharging for the DS2072 to get a foothold with the scope in the market.
2) They are hoping to make as much as possible from the higher BW scopes before a hack leaks out and siphons off part of that market share.
3) There is a REAL difference inside (least likely).

Quote
i wonder if it can do some freq domain like plot? like this tektroniks tds2024?
I'll try to look into that tomorrow.

He just matched the sweep generator sweep time to the scope full screen sweep time. and used external trigger from the sweep gen to trigger the scope.
I'm not sure which part you're talking about: the Measurement part (using a logarithmic sweep) - or - the SCPI part (using a noise signal)?
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: tlu on October 30, 2012, 07:35:02 pm
Hi Marmad,

Excellent review once again. Do you think it is worth the extra $300 to get the 100Mhz model? I'm about to pull the trigger on this unit.

tlu
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: digsys on October 30, 2012, 09:47:36 pm
Quote from: AndyC
Have you looked at the 4000 series? They have VGA output on the back.
I use the VGA port on my Tek all the time - I have a 17" LCD on my bench which is much bigger and clearer than the scope's own built-in display.
Actually I did, AND they also have a Battery option !! Definitely Interesting. Prices get a bit high at this end.

Quote from: marmand
For me, better than VGA-out would be good software which extracts the waveform data and displays it in a window on a high-res screen. I haven't tried this yet, but the DS2000 seems much faster at transferring data off-scope, so I'm hoping to write efficient software which will do just this.
Never had good experience with data ports, for speed. If you get to try it, can you post your findings?
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: robrenz on October 31, 2012, 01:43:08 am
Quote
i wonder if it can do some freq domain like plot? like this tektroniks tds2024?
I'll try to look into that tomorrow.

He just matched the sweep generator sweep time to the scope full screen sweep time. and used external trigger from the sweep gen to trigger the scope.
I'm not sure which part you're talking about: the Measurement part (using a logarithmic sweep) - or - the SCPI part (using a noise signal)?

I was talking about the video that Mechatrommer posted here. AFIK the 1052E can do the exact same thing.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Mechatrommer on October 31, 2012, 05:47:45 am
yes probably 1052e can do, but i never saw it can do a nice color grading like that like agilent infinity vision did too. may be in PC software doable with many many times of capture.
@rob, yes i'm aware of the external trigger, but since i never do it i'm quite sceptic what kind of trigger the fg produced, is it the usual "synch out" signal or a pulse at each frequency sweep, gotta figure that one later out my self ;) but as i said, i doubt 1052e can do the nice color grade like that.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 31, 2012, 11:19:48 am
is it the usual "synch out" signal or a pulse at each frequency sweep, gotta figure that one later out my self ;)

Just watched it... the trigger out from the AWG is a single pulse at the start of the sweep - that's why he set the scopes timebase*div to be exactly equal to the length of the sweep. Each time the sweep restarts it will trigger the scope - which will then collect another batch of sample points during the sweep time and add it to the screen.

Quote
but as i said, i doubt 1052e can do the nice color grade like that.

He does mention in the video that they just set persistence to 5 seconds; it looks like you might be able to do it on almost any scope.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Mechatrommer on October 31, 2012, 12:04:18 pm
He does mention in the video that they just set persistence to 5 seconds; it looks like you might be able to do it on almost any scope.
persistence to 5 seconds? not with 1052e ;) it only none or infinite. we'll get color "flat" not color "grade" i can do it in software though but slow. ok enough for today's lesson thanks, back to topic everybody :P
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: robrenz on October 31, 2012, 12:57:22 pm
One more thing before back to topic.  In that application of looking at the filter response, the envelope is all that matters anyway.  Digital phosphor like effects within the envelope are irrelevant.  I did a slow sine modulation, 1 cycle 5 seconds period of of a 1khz sinewave carrier on the 1052E and it shows the envelope nicely.  Ok Mecha I am done now  :-*
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 03, 2012, 05:45:24 pm
I try to attach two pictures:

R = 4.7 kOhm, C = 1 nF and 1 horisontal division is 10 kHz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Dread on November 03, 2012, 07:11:22 pm
It's a nice scope but Dave’s last video showed the main problem with the DS2072 and that is no upgrade path for Bandwidth.  70MHz is just too low for most people!  I have uses on a monthly basis that push my needs up to the 150Mhz region and I suspect that many other eevblogers also have need of BW higher than 70Mhz.   I also really dislike all those trial features disappearing just as you get use to them.  Overall I suspect very few 2000 series owners really end up making an $850 purchase but instead end up spending much more money, that low price is just bait to get you in the door, after that I suspect most people end up spending between $1200 to the $2000 plus by time they get finished.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 03, 2012, 08:25:51 pm
It's a nice scope but Dave’s last video showed the main problem with the DS2072 and that is no upgrade path for Bandwidth.
1) Most scopes don't have upgradeable BW.
2) Bandwidth is just one feature in the assortment of features which make a scope useful for someone.
3) Even so, as mentioned already more than once on this blog,  there will be 100M and 200M BW upgrade options available eventually for the DS2000.

Quote
I also really dislike all those trial features disappearing just as you get use to them.
You would prefer that they didn't give you any free time with the trial options? Even without buying the option package for additional triggers, this scope has 9 built-in triggers compared to 4 on the Agilent 2000X or Owon SDS. Even without paying for the 56M of memory, this scope already has 14M.

I also noticed elsewhere that you wrote about the DS2000:

What no Zoom at all?  Am I missing something here?  I can Zoom with my cheap scope I would expect this one to do that easily.
In fact, the scope has a very nice zoom - much better then the one on the Owon.

I don't know, Dread, you seem to be on a mission to denigrate this scope - and I'm not quite sure why. Maybe to convince yourself that you made the right choice with a recent DSO purchase? All I can say is, as someone who has owned both an SDS scope and this one - they are not even in the same league.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mechatrommer on November 03, 2012, 10:17:32 pm
1) Most scopes don't have upgradeable BW.
unfortunately DS1052E has. from 50Mhz to 100MHz. so it is a hope the 2000X also has. if rigol want this model to go boom, they should leakout some informations ;)
2) Bandwidth is just one feature in the assortment of features which make a scope useful for someone.
bandwidth is the main feature. others are mostly bells and whistles that follow. YMMV.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 03, 2012, 10:50:16 pm
unfortunately DS1052E has. from 50Mhz to 100MHz.
Sorry, Mecha - but the DS1052E is no competitor to this scope at all. I've used that scope - and this one is at least 200% better - not just the 60% more that it costs. The closest competition is the Agilent DSO-X 2002a - which costs 25% more but has way smaller memory, way fewer triggers, etc, etc.

Quote
bandwidth is the main feature. others are mostly bells and whistles that follow. YMMV.
I guess for you - certainly not for me (and others, I'm sure). I do the majority of my work at <=50MHz - and having 'bells and whistles' like 9 triggers, 14MPt, 50k wfrm/s, etc, are going to save me time in design and debugging. But if amount of $ per MHz of BW is your bottom line, then, yes, this scope is not for you.

Quote
if rigol want this model to go boom, they should leakout some informations
Well, it is interesting that all three scopes in the DS2000 line are 2GSa/s  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: A Hellene on November 03, 2012, 11:06:27 pm
Very nicely done, Mark! Thank you for the review!

Had I not already got the DS1052, I would not hesitate to lay my hands on a brand new DS2072! But, then again, how could I have earned my specific knowledge the '1052 hacking gave me?

Now, on the upgradability issue of the 'options' and the device bandwidth, it is my firm belief that it is absolutely feasible. It is just a matter of time to disassemble the unit (in order to create the schematics) and of a thorough firmware investigation.

I am very optimistic on this for the reasons I have already stated (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/msg148867/#msg148867), and because of a revealing DS4000 glitch (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds4014-decided-it-would-be-more-fun-to-be-a-ds4054/), where the units that might lose their model-specific data (their serial number and model) will default to 500 MHz DS405x devices, even though they were badged and sold as 100 MHz DS401x ones!

But, who's got the amounts of time needed for such a reverse engineering project...


-George
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on November 03, 2012, 11:11:20 pm
It's a nice scope but Dave’s last video showed the main problem with the DS2072 and that is no upgrade path for Bandwidth.  70MHz is just too low for most people!  I have uses on a monthly basis that push my needs up to the 150Mhz region and I suspect that many other eevblogers also have need of BW higher than 70Mhz.

Most scopes on the market do not have software upgradable bandwidth. Are we now suddenly at the point that a scope not having software upgradable bandwidth is a fail?
It seems that people either complain about a scope having software bandwidth upgrade, or they complain about not having it!  ::)
If you want the higher bandwidth then just buy it. It's not like you save any money buy buying it later, in fact you probably ultimately pay more for the software upgrade.

Quote
I also really dislike all those trial features disappearing just as you get use to them.

How is that any different to any other software trial license before?
Just because they pre-install them for you?

Dave.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 03, 2012, 11:13:44 pm
Very nicely done, Mark! Thank you for the review!
Thanks, George - and thanks for the info on the DS4000 glitch - I hadn't heard about that!

I don't particularly want to void my warranty at this time (especially since Dave did a teardown - and the product is still reasonably new to market that some fault could develop) but I do wonder what protections Rigol has instituted to prevent debuggers from creating key generators for the options.

BTW, I heard privately from someone that their trial options (which were expired by the Self-Cal bug) mysteriously re-installed themselves later  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andyturk on November 03, 2012, 11:42:39 pm
How is that any different to any other software trial license before?
Just because they pre-install them for you?

Dave.
Maybe it's not. But having these features enabled by license keys disturbs the notion that what you're paying for is quality components and construction. That's why so many EEVBlog readers are fascinated by teardown videos--they want to see what's inside.

Imagine if one of the licensed features was a lower noise floor. If I thought the manufacturer used better components in the higher spec model, I might pay up and buy it. But if I knew they were simply adding pseudorandom noise to the unlicensed instruments, then I'd probably stay way entirely.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on November 03, 2012, 11:51:11 pm
A test of its real bandwidth extension would be interesting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 12:12:09 am
Imagine if one of the licensed features was a lower noise floor. If I thought the manufacturer used better components in the higher spec model, I might pay up and buy it. But if I knew they were simply adding pseudorandom noise to the unlicensed instruments, then I'd probably stay way entirely.

Granted it's not so nice knowing that there is locked potential you can't use in a device you own (unless you pay more later)- but if it helps manufacturers defray research and development (or build) costs of newer and better scopes, I think it's fine. And if you look at quality and features you get per $ of your money - first from the Agilent X series - and now from these Rigol scopes - you have to conclude that the strategy is working.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 04, 2012, 12:25:11 am
I've just ordered one of these and judging by the specs alone it's worth the price. Most hobbyist and new comers to the electronics field would not need to go over 50Mhz as mermad pointed out. Seeing how similar the different BW models for the 2000 series, we can deduce it again maybe a s oftware mod for the BW rather then a HW one.

The trial options is super great. It gives you a chance to try before you buy. Who can say no to that? I'm looking forward until my arrives. Mermad, could you do another video exploring more of this Scopes  features?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Spikee on November 04, 2012, 02:31:44 am
How does it compare to the Agilent 2000x series ?
Is it really better. If so ... i should buy me another rigol scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 11:23:38 am
Here are the results of a quick test I did measuring the Rigol DS2072 waveform update rates at all timebase settings and memory depths (also attached in Excel format). If you compare these to the Agilent 2000X series published rates, it's obvious the Agilent is the clear winner - although it doesn't have anything close to the possible memory depths.

Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. I took best-case rate when it was fluctuating:

14kPts 140kPts 1.4MPts 14MPts 56MPts
5ns 15,000 13,150 1,412 142 36
10ns 9,400 9,400 1,412 142 36
20ns 50,012 13,515 1,416 142 36
50ns 25,003 13,515 1,416 142 36
100ns 17,859 13,159 1,412 142 36
200ns 11,365 11,360 1,408 142 36
500ns 5,434 5,435 1,336 142 36
1us 5,263 2,890 1,126 139 35
2us 5,054 1,506 846 133 35
5us 4,425 1,176 733 130 35
10us 3,789 1,157 720 130 35
20us 2,945 992 442 117 34
50us 1,326 639 414 114 34
100us 683 421 306 94 32
200us 347 245 200 69 28
500us 140 109 97 39 21
1ms 70 56 52 29 15
2ms 35 29 27 19 10
5ms ~14 ~13 ~11 ~9 ~6
10ms ~7 ~6 ~6 ~5 ~3
20ms ~4 ~4 ~3 ~3 ~2
50ms ~2 ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1
100ms  ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 11:32:22 am
I also got them back, but next day they ware gone and the list was totally empty.

Also: I can confirm a good 'bug' in the current firmware - it seems the trial options have come back from the dead on my scope - counting down again from the initial trial minutes. Whether this is behavior which will continue indefinitely is - as you might imagine - intensely interesting. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 11:35:16 am
I also got them back, but next day they ware gone and the list was totally empty.

Interesting. You mean they just jumped from some higher number (e.g. 1800) to zero all of a sudden? Well, I will keep an eye on them; I hadn't used the scope for a few days until last night - and then they were back - and still there counting down today.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: KedasProbe on November 04, 2012, 11:47:40 am
Here are the results of a quick test I did measuring the Rigol DS2072 waveform update rates at all timebase settings and memory depths (also attached in Excel format)
How did you measure this, or was is displayed on the screen?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 11:59:14 am
How did you measure this, or was is displayed on the screen?
Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. And I'll add this to the above post.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 12:20:27 pm
No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

Interesting. You mean they just jumped from some higher number (e.g. 1800) to zero all of a sudden?

Here are 2 pictures more about RC-filters. Components are same as earlier. The horisontal scale is now 100 kHz per division. Sweep is from 1 Hz to 1 MHz in 10 seconds. There is no external trigger.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 12:37:40 pm
No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

And how did you resolve it? Firmware update?

Edit: Or is that the default behavior when the trial options are gone?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 12:42:37 pm
With money! I have bought the options.

No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

And how did you resolve it? Firmware update?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 12:45:47 pm
With money! I have bought the options.

Yes, you mentioned that before - but that doesn't change the fact that there was a bug in the firmware which was making the scope options act strangely. I'm not sure I would pay for options until I knew that they would operate correctly continuously.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 01:02:19 pm
I have the original firmware (first version). This xy bug das not bother me. The time base bug, about what Dave tells, is much worse in this new firmware . Where can I get a new firmware, which is tested works ok? I don't want this which Dave installed.

I have not found any problems with these official options until now.

With money! I have bought the options.

Yes, you mentioned that before - but that doesn't change the fact that there was a bug in the firmware which was making the scope options act strangely. I'm not sure I would pay for options until I knew that they would operate correctly continuously.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 01:04:43 pm
Edit: Or is that the default behavior when the trial options are gone?

Propably it is so!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 01:19:12 pm
Where can I get a new firmware, which is tested works ok? I don't want this which Dave installed.
I don't think there is any official new version yet. I have the same as yours - with two bugs that I know of: the XY reversal - and the cancelling of trial options during self-calibration. You can get a second free trial license from Rigol if you lose the first through self-cal - but I doubt they'll give you a third, then fourth, etc, etc   :)

Quote
I have not found any problems with these official options until now.
Have you tried running a self-calibration since installing the official options?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 01:25:06 pm
Have you tried running a self-calibration since installing the official options?

No, but it is not a big problem. The options can be reinstalled, if they are lost.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 04, 2012, 01:28:20 pm
Quote
Also: I can confirm a good 'bug' in the current firmware - it seems the trial options have come back from the dead on my scope - counting down again from the initial trial minutes. Whether this is behavior which will continue indefinitely is - as you might imagine - intensely interesting. :) 

Very interesting. Please do continue to monitor this and hopefully this is a permanent "good bug". This would make the dso even more of a bargain  ;D.

I hope mine comes in sometimes next week. I'm super excited to get fingers on it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 01:30:41 pm
No, but it is not a big problem. The options can be reinstalled, if they are lost.

Yes, I understand; same serial number plus license code. I was just curious if the bug affected all installed options - or just the trial ones. I'm guessing that it's just the trial ones - time and/or protection data being overwritten.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 04, 2012, 01:36:12 pm
Quote
Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. I took best-case rate when it was fluctuating:

The 1Mhz square wave, is that from the test signal of the scope itself or an external signal from an AWG?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 01:39:55 pm
The 1Mhz square wave, is that from the test signal of the scope itself or an external signal from an AWG?

External signal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 01:53:38 pm
BTW, I think I know what I did which triggered the trial options to return. But unless I can reproduce the effect a second time consecutively, I'll never know. But I won't try anything until the options are expired again, since according to EV, they expired again the next day - and I want to see if they continue counting down to zero on my scope. Watch here for updates  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 02:14:31 pm
But I won't try anything until the options are expired again, ;)

Your situation is not exactly the same as I had. When my trial options had expired after calibration, I installed the official trigger option. After it also the other two options came back, but all options vanished on the next day. So I had to reinstall this official trigger option! I hope that your trial options don't vanish before this promised trial time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 04, 2012, 03:03:56 pm
Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: KedasProbe on November 04, 2012, 07:32:13 pm
How did you measure this, or was is displayed on the screen?
Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. And I'll add this to the above post.
If you have time could you add the sample rate in your excel file.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 04, 2012, 11:03:16 pm
Thanks for your awesome video review marmad!  You have provided a very nice introduction to several features and analysis capabilities of this scope.  It's surprising there is not really that much out there on the Rigol DS2000 series.  It is very exciting to read more about this series of scopes, and certainly I look forward to using one myself.

This thread is excellent --- thanks also to everyone posting with their feedback, which provides much insight to the state of firmware/bugs.  After reading many peoples positive experience, I feel a lot more assured of the quality/capability of this scope than I initially did after watching Dave's "Playing around..." video...seems the firmware Dave upgraded to should be kept away from!

If I'm not mistaken, Rigol hasn't publicly distributed any official firmware upgrades for the DS2000 series yet.  I hope firmware updates from Rigol become transparent --- e.g. listed on a website for easy download, with clear indication of bugs fixed, features added, etc.

Cheers folks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 12:48:55 am
Here is a test of the first in a group of utilities I'm writing for the Rigol DS2000: software which grabs the recorded frames to the PC for compilation into videos. This is a small first test - only 126 frames - but I'll try to upload a larger one tomorrow.

I put it up on Youtube - but the beautiful resolution got ruined by their compression. Better to look at it here: http://www.daysalive.com/share/DS2000_movie_test.mov (http://www.daysalive.com/share/DS2000_movie_test.mov)
Give it a few seconds to load before it starts playing.

Now not only can you make images from your DSO screen - you can make DSO home movies  ;)

Edit: And I'll start posting the software as soon as it gets a bit closer to release-ready.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 01:08:43 am
Thanks for your awesome video review marmad!  You have provided a very nice introduction to several features and analysis capabilities of this scope.  It's surprising there is not really that much out there on the Rigol DS2000 series.
You're welcome, Sparky - and I hope to add more to the knowledge base as I learn more about the scope. But I think it's only been available since June - so it's not too surprising there isn't much yet.

Quote
If I'm not mistaken, Rigol hasn't publicly distributed any official firmware upgrades for the DS2000 series yet.  I hope firmware updates from Rigol become transparent --- e.g. listed on a website for easy download, with clear indication of bugs fixed, features added, etc.
As far as I know, there are no updates yet, but the current firmware is very stable (Dave unfortunately got a slightly buggy not-for-general-release version) - with only the 2 bugs mentioned before that I know about. But, as much as I love this scope - and admire Rigol's ingenuity and professional products - the downside of owning a Chinese scope is slow (and sometimes bad) communication and secrecy. Some Chinese companies are better than others - but they all seem to suffer from it to some degree.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on November 05, 2012, 01:36:55 am
Where can I get a new firmware, which is tested works ok? I don't want this which Dave installed.

I've been informed that new official firmware will be available on the 15th Nov.
I'm currently running a new engineering version that fixes the issues with the zoom etc.

Dave.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 05, 2012, 08:56:27 am
Here is a test of the first in a group of utilities I'm writing for the Rigol DS2000: software which grabs the recorded frames to the PC for compilation into videos. This is a small first test - only 126 frames - but I'll try to upload a larger one tomorrow.

<snip>

Edit: And I'll start posting the software as soon as it gets a bit closer to release-ready.

This is fantastic, marmad!  :)  I noted on Rigon NA website that the DS1000E series has quite a bit of documentation/software related to programming, and so I was bummed to see so little on DS2000 pages.  You touched on the PC control in your video and earlier in this thread, and I'm super happy to see that PC control and data transfer still exists. 

I've previously written a Visual Basic program using LabVIEW controls and GPIB interface to talk with a spectrometer so that control could be done from a PC, and display results and computations on PC also.  I'd be very excited to work on something for this scope --- it should be possible to build PC software with additional signal analysis (especially FFT and choice of windows etc).

@marmad: What programming language and dev. environment are you using for your software development? What is the communications protocol to talk with the DS2000?  Very exciting!

Cheers!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 05, 2012, 09:47:14 am
Edit: And I'll start posting the software as soon as it gets a bit closer to release-ready.

This is fine, thank you!

Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?

I have used only RS-232 decoder and it works well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 09:54:00 am
Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?

I have used only Rs-232 encoder and it works well.
I used the I2C decode in the video review - it worked just as expected.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 03:07:17 pm
What programming language and dev. environment are you using for your software development? What is the communications protocol to talk with the DS2000?  Very exciting!
I'm using Visual Studio and the National Instruments VISA DLLs - talking to the device with SCPI.

Ok, it was rather late last night when I posted the first DS2000 screen-video - getting frustrated because of YouTube's compression - and I forgot to create a little FlashPlayer on the page I linked to. Now I have and it's much better. So here is the second test of creating an H264 encoded video from the recorded frames (i.e. segments of memory) on the Rigol DS2072:

Logarithmic sweep: 10Hz - 40kHz with sync pulse, while displaying one reference square wave of 1kHz and one of 10kHz.
1700 frames @ 34". I'm playing back at 50 fps, so you'll notice the clock counting seconds faster than normal. Also my software hit a bug near the end, so the last ~100 frames were captured later on (you can see the clock jump)  ;)

It's a 15MB movie, so it can take a few moments (depending on your connection speed) to start playing:

http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html (http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html)

Also, as of today, my reanimated trial options are still working fine - third day running  :)

Edit: I tried to attach a smaller version for download here, but it appears the blog doesn't allow video file types :( Perhaps, it's time to change that? Anyway, here is a download link for a smaller version: 250 frames @30fps real-time: http://turbidmedia.com/ds2072.mov (http://turbidmedia.com/ds2072.mov)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 05, 2012, 04:03:56 pm
Hi Marmad,

Great video. I appreciate you taking your time to do these kind of video. I very exciting and glad to hear your trial options are still up and running. I hope it stays that way. Do it still counts down or is it a bogus number for the remaining time of the options?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 04:13:28 pm
Do it still counts down or is it a bogus number for the remaining time of the options?
Yes, counting down.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 05:13:09 pm
Another fantastic thing I noticed today (and I'll include this in another video): as long as recorded frames are in memory, you can do any processing to them that you can do to real-time waveforms - for example, taking any kind of measurement or running one of the bus decode options works perfectly fine on recorded frames while they're playing back.

This is a powerful feature which can allow you to do post-processing inside the DSO on 'real-time' signals at a later date. It's just kind of strange that Rigol didn't allow the option of saving and recalling the recorded frames to a USB stick. Of course, it's no problem to get the frames out of the scope using SCPI, but I haven't been able to locate any method for loading them BACK in - which, IMO, is a huge wasted opportunity on Rigol's part. It means that once they're replaced in the memory by something else, there is no way to get them back  :(

Imagine you recorded some minutes of a waveform last week, but you thought of something new you wanted to check. If you could somehow recall the frames into the scope, you could run some analysis/processing on them again. Of course, this can be done outside the scope with software - but often it would be handier (and quicker) to just reload them into the DSO.

Edit: Attached is an image made playing back recorded frames while doing measurements and SPI bus decoding after the fact - and then going into Delayed Sweep (zoom) at the same time  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 05, 2012, 05:20:46 pm
It's a 15MB movie, so it can take a few moments (depending on your connection speed) to start playing:

http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html (http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html)

Fine video, thank you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 05, 2012, 05:31:47 pm
Great fine of the post processing analysis with recorded frames Marmad! That is kind of cheesy of Rigol not implementing the loading of recorded data back into the dso. Maybe this is something that could be implemented in future versions of the firmware?

Love your videos, please keep it coming.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: saturation on November 05, 2012, 07:37:03 pm
Great review, justing adding my kudos.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 07:52:59 pm
Great review, justing adding my kudos.
Thanks, saturation. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 06, 2012, 09:04:33 am
What programming language and dev. environment are you using for your software development? What is the communications protocol to talk with the DS2000?  Very exciting!
I'm using Visual Studio and the National Instruments VISA DLLs - talking to the device with SCPI.

Thanks marmad!  I'm happy to hear about use of Visual Studio --- I have used it as the dev. environment for my Visual Basic apps. 

Also, excellent videos and pictures you are posting --- thanks very much for posting them, and your discoveries, and bringing attention to improvements (to John S in the EEV#369 thread).  It's very exciting to see the developments! :)

The user user feedback, expansion of possibilities with PC apps, and positive news of firmware update about Nov 15 (fixing XY bug additional bugs Dave experienced) make me feel very positive about this scope.  As a result, I placed order for one of these today!

Best!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 07, 2012, 01:27:15 am
I thought it might be handy to compile a list of other EEVblog threads about the Rigol DS2000 series.  They contain great information too!

EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown (by Dave): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/)

EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around (by Dave): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/)

Rigol DS 2072 noise problem (by playfsx): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds-2072-noise-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds-2072-noise-problem/)

Rigol DS2072 Review (by JimmySte): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds2072-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds2072-review/)

Edit: Since this is the latest "review and first impressions" thread on the Rigol DS2000 series, it is probably best to post similar info here. So we can read everyone's happy news at once :)

Happy reading!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 07, 2012, 02:19:20 am
Since this thread is the latest and currently most active on the DS2000 series, it might make sense to keep general discussion here (least we end up with 20 threads!)

Well, just as you posted this, I posted something in the other thread which actually belongs here with my review - so I'll repost a snippet from it, which is my current features wish-list for the DS2000 series:

1) Save/Recall of specifc channels of recorded frames at specific frame points.
2) Markers while in Delayed Sweep Mode (searching would be better - but I think unlikely)
3) SCPI :SYST:KEY command to poll the 4 menu pg up/pg dwn buttons (unused on the front panel when the menus are retracted - the scope lacks the ability to initiate contact with control software and this would be an easy way to do it - and they would also then function as programmable soft-keys).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on November 07, 2012, 02:45:44 am
Hi guys
just ordered 2072 largely based on the reviews here.   The 200 MHz sleeping beast inside looks promising.

I went with tequipment - they were on a generator yesterday and today finally got the commercial power restored... with another noreaster brewing off the coast.  Not sure when I will actually get mine.  But I figured they really need orders; probably lost so much because of Sandy.  Make sure you request a quote from them before ordering via the web site.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 07, 2012, 02:54:10 am
just ordered 2072 largely based on the reviews here.   The 200 MHz sleeping beast inside looks promising.

Welcome - I think you'll really like your purchase. Feel free to post your reactions and thoughts once you've tried it out.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on November 07, 2012, 03:19:06 am
I went with tequipment - they were on a generator yesterday and today finally got the commercial power restored... with another noreaster brewing off the coast.  Not sure when I will actually get mine.  But I figured they really need orders; probably lost so much because of Sandy.  Make sure you request a quote from them before ordering via the web site.
Thanks for the info on that - glad to hear they have power back.  Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice or are they maybe backlogged and that would be a chance to let a buyer know?  It's possible I'll want to order one myself from somewhere at some point soon-ish.

Thanks again,
Jacob
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 07, 2012, 05:56:46 am
Hi guys
just ordered 2072 largely based on the reviews here.   The 200 MHz sleeping beast inside looks promising.

I went with tequipment - they were on a generator yesterday and today finally got the commercial power restored... with another noreaster brewing off the coast.  Not sure when I will actually get mine.  But I figured they really need orders; probably lost so much because of Sandy.  Make sure you request a quote from them before ordering via the web site.

Glad to see another member get on board with this scope. I was trying to gathering people together so we can get a 5% discount on our purchase with 5 units. Unfortunately, I did not hear back from any members except jnuemann who is still undecided until next month or so according to him. Well, I got anxious and jump the gun and ordered one last week. I should be getting mine this coming Monday. Even without the 5% discount, it is still a great price.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 07, 2012, 12:59:12 pm
Since this thread is the latest and currently most active on the DS2000 series, it might make sense to keep general discussion here (least we end up with 20 threads!)
Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but in fact, the whole point of threads stems from the name: that they should be specific. Of course, everybody here (including myself) breaks this rule regularly. But the result of this, unfortunately, is often threads that are 50-100 pages long, filled with reviews, hacks, product information, technical support, etc, etc, and are an absolute bitch to wade through for just one piece of information.

In fact, I screwed up by starting a NEW review thread of the DS2072 when I should have posted my video under JimmySte's thread. It's just that when I posted reviews of the Owon and Hantek, there weren't any other review threads, so I was just used to starting a new one and forgot.

In theory, the two EEVBlog DS2000 threads are specifically about Dave's videos; the two review threads (JimmySte and myself) should be combined as one (perhaps by Dave or one of the moderators?) - with new reviews and impressions added there (for people thinking of buying the scope); and the noise problem thread turned out not to be a problem with the scope but with playfsx's power - and so it should end. Then there should be a new thread titled something like 'Rigol DS2000 series - tips, tricks, software' for people who already own the scope and are looking - not for review information - but for tips and added features, etc, and perhaps another thread devoted to firmware updates and hacks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on November 07, 2012, 02:10:16 pm
Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice

Yes they will verify stock and send a formal quote. also got a small discount from the web price and I didn't even ask for it :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 07, 2012, 03:31:58 pm
Since this thread is the latest and currently most active on the DS2000 series, it might make sense to keep general discussion here (least we end up with 20 threads!)
Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but in fact, the whole point of threads stems from the name: that they should be specific. Of course, everybody here (including myself) breaks this rule regularly. But the result of this, unfortunately, is often threads that are 50-100 pages long, filled with reviews, hacks, product information, technical support, etc, etc, and are an absolute bitch to wade through for just one piece of information.
<snip>

You're right, Mark. It is good etiquette that posts within a thread remain "on-topic" with the thread title, which makes it much easier to find specific types of information.  I didn't mean for everything Rigol DS2000 to be posted here (I agree -- best to avoid the mess you describe above!), and I tried to indicate that with the "general information" bit...in hindsight I can see that is vague on my part.  For sure, it's best to post where it makes sense, and if that means creating a new thread on a new topic, so be it!  Would be great to have a thread specific to Rigol DS2000 tips n' tricks, software, etc.!  (I'll go edit my earlier post...)

Now, back on topic for me! I've ordered my DS2072 from TEquipment.net also --- am super looking forward to it, and will share my initial experience and thoughts here! :)

Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice
Yes they will verify stock and send a formal quote. also got a small discount from the web price and I didn't even ask for it :)
This is also my experience.  I actually called and made a change to my order and they still applied a 5% discount.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on November 07, 2012, 08:03:54 pm
Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice
Yes they will verify stock and send a formal quote. also got a small discount from the web price and I didn't even ask for it :)
This is also my experience.  I actually called and made a change to my order and they still applied a 5% discount.

Thanks zibadun and Sparky.  I'll definitely have to keep TEquipment.net in mind and request a quote once/if I decide the DS2072 is best for my needs.  Hopefully they'll still have the discount at that point.  (Not to derail - I have another thread for that decision process and am grateful for the help I've gotten there.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 07, 2012, 08:35:37 pm
Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice

Yes they will verify stock and send a formal quote. also got a small discount from the web price and I didn't even ask for it :)

Wow that is terrific. How much of a discount did you get? Now, I may call them to see if I could get that to my order but I'm already charged for the unit. Did they say why they gave you the discount eventhough you did not asked for it? Was this purchase at tequipment?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on November 07, 2012, 08:55:55 pm
I may call them to see if I could get that to my order but I'm already charged for the unit. Did they say why they gave you the discount eventhough you did not asked for it?

May be they were counting on a word getting out...  and it worked ;)   Not sure they *have* to give the discount but may be if you mention this forum or something.  I'm sure they've noticed a bump in 2072s orders and may be wondering where they are coming from
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 07, 2012, 09:44:22 pm
Wow that is terrific. How much of a discount did you get? Now, I may call them to see if I could get that to my order but I'm already charged for the unit. Did they say why they gave you the discount eventhough you did not asked for it? Was this purchase at tequipment?

Yes, from Tequipment.net.  It was 5% discount, which is ~$40 on the DS2072.  Not huge, but something.  I thought I got a .edu discount as that was my inquiry to them in my request for quote (I gave them my .edu email and university name).  Though, I recall you spoke with them and found that there are no individual or .edu discounts!  So...I've no idea why they gave it to me!  Seems other people have also got it by luck.  At least you got free DSO case from them, correct?

Now, back to DS2072 news :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 07, 2012, 10:03:04 pm
Ok, been using the scope 2 weeks - here is a current list of known firmware annoyances/problems/bugs (leaving out unimplemented features - or physical design issues):

1) The scope appears to first clear the display then restart the sweep whenever moving the waveform vertically, changing the vertical or horizontal scale, moving trigger position, turning on/off channels, etc. At faster timebase settings this isn't much of a problem, but when doing any of these things with divisions >=50ms, the scope can feel unresponsive. I'm wondering if this might be attributed to what I'll call the 'Owon effect' (having just one routine for something, no matter the memory size) - because the sample depth settings do not change the response time. It's as if the scope is always dealing with 56MPts in this regard. Maybe it has to act this way in case the memory is being used as history ('Record Open'); i.e. the memory is a third dimension to any sample size.

2) The way the scope handles intensity grading in delayed sweep mode needs some work - it doesn't appear to be the same as if you just stop the sweep and zoom in via the horizontal scale (I can't quite figure out why this would logically happen). Sometimes the grading is just too light to see well and you need to turn up the intensity settings.

3) When you turn on tracking cursors (if all cursors off), the measurement window doesn't appear. You can workaround this by cycling through (via the menu button) to manual cursors and back to tracking.

4) X-Y channels are reversed.

5) Self-calibration will automatically expire any trial options currently running.

6) [Added 09/11] AUTO routine sometimes fails to latch onto signals. I'm not sure about the exact circumstances - member EV says that it has to do with 2 channels, but I'm fairly certain it has worked for me with 2 channels sometimes (and others not). Perhaps someone can test and figure out the parameters of this bug.

7) [Edited 09/12] If you use the FINE horizontal scale adjust at scales >=20ms (Press -> [Horizontal] Menu -> ScaleAdjust -> Fine), the max/min horizontal trigger position becomes locked to the next lower major division*10/14 - instead of staying 10x/14x of whatever the actual setting is.  This can cause the trigger position to jump and become frozen (with the 'Parameters overrange!' message) in the middle of the display. See this message (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg169891/#msg169891) for more details.

Anyone reading this with a DS2000 or DS4000 that can point out something else, feel free to chime in.

Edit (09/11): According to Rigol, #1 is just because they happen to do the restarting of the sweep the opposite way (first clear - perform function - then redraw) from other manufacturers, who leave the old waveform on the display when you move it, change scale, etc. - which is how I expected they'd respond. Well, the other way is better I think (whether they are equivalent or not - it just feels more responsive). Anyway, hopefully if enough owners complain about it, they'll change it eventually.

Edit (14/12): I'm moving this entire list to the first post of the thread to make it more easy to find.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 08, 2012, 02:05:41 am
Hi Marmad,

Again, thanks for the updates. It seems #2 and #3 are just annoyances that can be worked around by the user but finding #1 is kind of troubling to hear. I've dealt and know what you mean by the 'Owon effect' and I really don't like it at all. Hopefully this can be tweaked in the firmware to get faster response time at >=50ms time base. Great fine and thanks for reporting in.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 08, 2012, 02:11:18 am
Another interesting piece of data about the 'Record Open' mode:

For those who haven't watched the review - or couldn't quite get what I was talking about - in 'Record Open' mode, the scope divides the memory into as many slices as it can based on the current sample depth (e.g. 56M/14k = 4000 [the maximum number is 65000]), then starts writing the captures into those slices (frames) continuously, looping back and overwriting from the beginning when it overruns the last frame. At any point you can stop the scope and jog back through the previous frames - looking at the history of the waveform over time. Then you could just restart the scope - again recording - or else process the timeslices with bus decoding or analysis.

I was curious what kind of effect using this mode would have on the wfrm/s update rate, so I checked it at various timebase settings. It appears it has no effect on the rate (as it shouldn't, if just done with pointers). Also, you can actually see the tangible speed of the update rate in the time tag of the recorded frames: i.e. using the smallest sample depth at the 20ns/div setting, the wfrm/s = 50k, so each frame is 20us - the reciprocal of 50k.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 09, 2012, 02:47:31 am
Very helpful posts @marmad, thanks!  Itemizing the bugs/annoyances will come in handy when checking if issues are resolved by firmware updates, and is good to prioritize issues we'd like to see resolved when contacting Rigol.  Definitely #1 on your list ("unresponsiveness") would seem to be the most frustrating aspect right now.

Thanks for going to the trouble of explaining more about how the scope functions --- really helpful information.

When a few more of us have scopes on hand (next week it seems!), we will have more end-user experiences.  We probably all emphasize different features of the scope depending on what we are working on, and so should be able to have additional things to discuss here --- at least this is how I hoped to contribute knowledge!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 09, 2012, 03:22:03 am
Well, mine is scheduled to arrive on 11/12/12 which is next week. I will also try to confirm so of the bugs and annoyances on mine to see if anything changed in the firmware from the time marmad got his but I highly doubt it. The supposedly next firmware release for the DS2072 is on 11/15/12 according to Dave and John South I believe who is a Rigol reseller.

I'm glad to have more time to spend on the scope Marmad. Well, one thing that worries me is every time you play with it you find something new. Given the fact this is a newly introduced model since June of this year, I can see not everything is ironed out. Good work in all these findings. You are probably the one only solely pinging all these bugs and annoyances at the moment it seems  ;).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 09, 2012, 07:50:37 am
- here is a current list of known firmware annoyances/problems/bugs (leaving out unimplemented features - or physical design issues):


Good list, I have not found anything to add to it, but when pressing AUTO button the scope does not find signals for both channels.

Real time 9.995 seconds gives exactly 10 seconds on the horisontal scale.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2012, 10:26:56 am
Good list, I have not found anything to add to it, but when pressing AUTO button the scope does not find signals for both channels.

Thanks for the reminder - I had noticed (but forgotten) that there was some strangeness in the AUTO routine - I will add it to the list above.

Quote
Real time 9.995 seconds gives exactly 10 seconds on the horisontal scale.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - can you be more specific?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 09, 2012, 11:24:16 am

Quote
Real time 9.995 seconds gives exactly 10 seconds on the horisontal scale.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - can you be more specific?

Sorry about my bad language. Look at the pictures:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2012, 11:46:43 am
Sorry about my bad language. Look at the pictures:

No problem about the language - we do the best we can  :)  I understand now.

As far as I can tell, I don't have this anomaly on my scope. If I look at a 1Hz square wave at any timebase (1s/500ms/200ms,etc), it's exactly on the grid lines. Are you sure your sweep time is accurate?

Edit: Attached image of 1Hz square wave

Edit2: Changed image to one with brighter grid

Edit3: Just double-checked Normal and Single trigger modes: in either case (on my DS2072), a 1Hz square wave lands exactly on the grid lines at any horizontal scale.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 09, 2012, 12:14:10 pm
Are you sure your sweep time is accurate?


Propably the problem is the acccuracy of the sweep time of the function generator. I tried also external GPS locked time reference, but it did not change it.

Then I checked this accuracy with 0.1 mHz pulse and there is no error on the time scale. So the problem is not cause of the oscilloscope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2012, 01:18:43 pm
Then I checked this accuracy with 0.1 mHz pulse and there is no error on the time scale. So the problem is not cause of the oscilloscope.

Good to hear  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 07:47:34 am
Hi Marmad,

Just out of curiosity, what persistency setting do you have the scope on for normal use? Just received my scope today and starting to play with it. This might have came up before but I did notice the waveforms blinks in and out of the screen when moving it either in the horizontal or vertical position. I vaguely remembered someone mentioned this issue before.

So far, loving it. Still going through some of the features it has. I found selecting an option with the push in multi-function knob kind of iffy as it can slip and you will end up with the previous or next setting. I found a workaround which requires only to select the option you want with the mult-function knob and if you are set with that option, just press the menu button rather than push the knob in. This guarantees your selection sticks and I'm using it constantly rather than the push in feature for selecting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 10:48:29 am
Just out of curiosity, what persistency setting do you have the scope on for normal use?

I use the standard Min setting - which gives you the normal analog scope feel; I would only use something higher if I was looking for anomalies.

Quote
This might have came up before but I did notice the waveforms blinks in and out of the screen when moving it either in the horizontal or vertical position. I vaguely remembered someone mentioned this issue before.

It's #1 on the list of known firmware annoyances/problems/bugs I posted earlier.

Quote
I found selecting an option with the push in multi-function knob kind of iffy as it can slip and you will end up with the previous or next setting. I found a workaround which requires only to select the option you want with the mult-function knob and if you are set with that option, just press the menu button rather than push the knob in. This guarantees your selection sticks and I'm using it constantly rather than the push in feature for selecting.

Yes, I mentioned this in the video review as one of my annoyances (but I find it's the same on every scope when you have to make a selection by pushing a rotary encoder).  I also try to use the workaround method you describe - but unfortunately, it doesn't work for every item (e.g. trigger selection).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 12:53:43 pm
Quote
I use the standard Min setting - which gives you the normal analog scope feel; I would only use something higher if I was looking for anomalies.

Thanks for the respond. Yes, you are right on the trigger menu part as I did failed to mention it in the workaround. However, where I can avoid having to push in the knob I do.

Are the options still functioning on your dso? Is the count down still happening?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 01:02:44 pm
Are the options still functioning on your dso? Is the count down still happening?

Nope, my trial options are currently expired - although I did get a mysterious full extra 35 hours after the initial period was expired (it reset itself). Also, I still have a spare trial license code from Rigol (courtesy of my distributor) to use - but I will save it until I really need it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 01:12:07 pm
Quote
Nope, my trial options are currently expired - although I did get a mysterious full extra 35 hours after the initial period was expired (it reset itself). Also, I still have a spare trial license code from Rigol (courtesy of my distributor) to use - but I will save it until I really need it.

Well, at least we know the options do not last forever  :o but I'm happy that you have 35hrs in reserve.

Can the firmware be backed up just in case some mysterious power outage takes out the scope for no apparent reason?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 01:30:12 pm
Can the firmware be backed up just in case some mysterious power outage takes out the scope for no apparent reason?
???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 01:33:01 pm
That was just an inquiry, my dso is still perfectly fine. Just curious as to if it is even possible to back up the firmware as a safety precaution. Just wondering.... ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 01:44:46 pm
That was just an inquiry, my dso is still perfectly fine. Just curious as to if it is even possible to back up the firmware as a safety precaution. Just wondering.... ;D

Since firmware does not fail because of power outages (unless, perhaps, one happens at the exact moment you're upgrading the firmware) - and since many manufacturers generally don't want people fiddling with their firmware - and since one of the reasons manufacturers supply warranties is as a safety precaution against device failure - I'd guess that, no, there is no method (or at least no publicly available method) to copy the firmware from the DSO to a PC.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 02:05:39 pm
Quote
Since firmware does not fail because of power outages (unless, perhaps, one happens at the exact moment you're upgrading the firmware) - and since many manufacturers generally don't want people fiddling with their firmware - and since one of the reasons manufacturers supply warranties is as a safety precaution against device failure - I'd guess that, no, there is no method (or at least no publicly available method) to copy the firmware from the DSO to a PC.

Thanks marmad, I figure it will be some time before someone can dump the firmware from this dso. I recalled in Dave's tear down of this scope, there are jtag pins available so maybe in the future this is an option for dumping the firmware? Anyhow, the previous inquiry was like you said, what if power went down during a firmware update and your warranty is expired? It would be nice at that point to have something to load back onto the dso.

I noticed on channel 2 of my dso I'm getting 10mV of ripple noise as opposed to channel 1 which is about half that. Is this normal or maybe there is grounding issue for channel 2? This is done with the respected channel in question and nothing hooked up to the probe.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 03:10:11 pm
I noticed on channel 2 of my dso I'm getting 10mV of ripple noise as opposed to channel 1 which is about half that. Is this normal or maybe there is grounding issue for channel 2? This is done with the respected channel in question and nothing hooked up to the probe.

A probe can act like an antenna. To check actual noise levels of the DSO, unhook the probes. Also, posting a screen cap here (try to use .png format to save Dave's BW) would help in identifying problems.

Attached are pngs of noise levels of my scope at the 500uV vertical setting:
No BW limit: ~640 uVpp average
20M BW limit: ~176 uVpp average
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 13, 2012, 04:06:10 pm

A probe can act like an antenna. To check actual noise levels of the DSO, unhook the probes. Also, posting a screen cap here (try to use .png format to save Dave's BW) would help in identifying problems.

Attached are pngs of noise levels of my scope at the 500uV vertical setting:
No BW limit: ~640 uVpp average
20M BW limit: ~176 uVpp average


I also checked the average noise values and got:

680/660 uVpp with no BW limit and horisontal scale at 20 ns
180/170 uVpp with 20M BW limit and horisontal scale at 20 ns

1.27/1.21 mVpp with no BW limit and horisontal scale at 10 ms
597/560 uVpp with 20M BW limit and horisontal scale at 10 ms

It looks that the noise value depends on the horisontal scale value possition.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 04:17:02 pm
Thanks again for the info marmad. You are absolutely right about the probe acting like an antenna. After removing it and checked again. Normal ~400uV and with 20Mhz BW limit ~160uV. I did not wanted to post a picture just to save Dave's BW just for this. In the future, I will with other issues so debugging and locating discrepancies would be easier.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 04:20:51 pm
I got so excited when receiving and playing around with the scope to check its labeled spec that I've did a self cal and lost the trial options.... :-[. I'm mad at myself as I really wanted to try out the i2c decoding on a small project. I'm kind of bummed for doing that... |O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 04:42:07 pm
It looks that the noise value depends on the horisontal scale value possition.

It's not the noise level - it's the measurements themselves. Most lower cost scopes (including the Agilent X series) take measurements from the displayed data - not the full-resolution captured data. Like analog scopes, measurement is most accurate when the waveform fills the screen without overshoot, and you have at least 3-4 cycles on screen.  If you play with the vertical or horizontal scale while keeping auto measurement on, you can watch the measurements change dynamically, starting with the LSD of the values.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 04:47:39 pm
It looks that the noise value depends on the horisontal scale value possition.

It's not the noise level - it's the measurements themselves. Most lower cost scopes (including the Agilent X series) take measurements from the displayed data - not the full-resolution captured data. Like analog scopes, measurement is most accurate when the waveform fills the screen without overshoot, and you have at least 3-4 cycles on screen.  If you play with the vertical or horizontal scale while keeping auto measurement on, you can watch the measurements change dynamically, starting with the LSD of the values.

Taking overshoot into account, the measurement reported from the dso is the average of the all the captured display data? How does it do the calculation for the reported Vpp, does it take a fixed sample size from the displayed data and average that?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 13, 2012, 05:13:47 pm
I got so excited when receiving and playing around with the scope to check its labeled spec that I've did a self cal and lost the trial options.... :-[. I'm mad at myself as I really wanted to try out the i2c decoding on a small project. I'm kind of bummed for doing that... |O

This is one of the known bugs with the current firmware.  It has been mentioned (by marmad and perhaps others) that you can request a new set of trial license codes for the optional modules from your distributor.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 05:31:05 pm
Taking overshoot into account, the measurement reported from the dso is the average of the all the captured display data? How does it do the calculation for the reported Vpp, does it take a fixed sample size from the displayed data and average that?

I'm not sure what you're asking. The measurements are made on the displayed data, which is limited to 700 x 400 points - not the entire sample data.

You can see this effect clearly by setting your sample depth to 14Mpts, then feeding a fixed waveform into the scope and adjusting the vertical and horizontal scales until 2 or 3 cycles fill the screen. Then turn on the Vpp measurement. Then change to the smallest timebase scale (i.e. flattening the waveform) and you will see the Vpp measurement flatten correspondingly. Then STOP the scope and increase the horizontal scale - you will see the entire captured waveform reappear (from stored sample memory) and the Vpp measurements will again increase as the waveform fills the screen.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on November 13, 2012, 09:41:24 pm
Since firmware does not fail because of power outages (unless, perhaps, one happens at the exact moment you're upgrading the firmware) - and since many manufacturers generally don't want people fiddling with their firmware - and since one of the reasons manufacturers supply warranties is as a safety precaution against device failure - I'd guess that, no, there is no method (or at least no publicly available method) to copy the firmware from the DSO to a PC.
...Anyhow, the previous inquiry was like you said, what if power went down during a firmware update and your warranty is expired? It would be nice at that point to have something to load back onto the dso.
DS2000 has a bootloader (unlike DS1000E), so in case of e.g. power failure during firmware update, the unit may not start again, but you are still able to re-initiate FW update by pressing HELP button during boot process (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700).

In addition to that, importand unit specific data is backed up in another part of memory, so in case they gets corrupted or overwritten, they are restored automatically.  I'd say there is enough protection implemented. Anyway, in case anybody get into trouble and need my help, feel free to contact me.

As I already mentioned in another post here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700), I suggest anybody with FW version 00.00.01.00.02 to upgrade first to 00.00.01.00.05 or later.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 14, 2012, 04:32:23 am
Quote
I'm not sure what you're asking. The measurements are made on the displayed data, which is limited to 700 x 400 points - not the entire sample data.

You can see this effect clearly by setting your sample depth to 14Mpts, then feeding a fixed waveform into the scope and adjusting the vertical and horizontal scales until 2 or 3 cycles fill the screen. Then turn on the Vpp measurement. Then change to the smallest timebase scale (i.e. flattening the waveform) and you will see the Vpp measurement flatten correspondingly. Then STOP the scope and increase the horizontal scale - you will see the entire captured waveform reappear (from stored sample memory) and the Vpp measurements will again increase as the waveform fills the screen.

Sorry I've misunderstood initially but now I understand what you meant by the display data. Thanks for the detailed info and clarifying things up for me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 14, 2012, 04:35:48 am
Quote
DS2000 has a bootloader (unlike DS1000E), so in case of e.g. power failure during firmware update, the unit may not start again, but you are still able to initiate another FW update by pressing HELP button during boot process.

In addition to that, importand unit specific data is backed up in another part of memory, so in case they gets corrupted or overwritten, they are restored automatically.  I'd say there is enough protection implemented. Anyway, in case anybody get into trouble and need my help, feel free to contact me.

As I already mentioned in another post here, I suggest anybody with FW version 00.00.01.00.02 to upgrade first to 00.00.01.00.05 or later.

Great information there drieg and thank you for pointing this out to me. I believe I'm on firmware 00.00.01. I haven't checked the Rigol site for newer firmware yet but it seems they are out since you mentioned the two firmware update. I have to look into this.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 14, 2012, 04:54:57 am
Just double checked and the software version is 00.00.01 and hardware version is 1.0.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on November 15, 2012, 11:52:23 pm
Check full/long firmware version  00.00.01.xx.xx as described here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: paolo on November 20, 2012, 11:52:45 pm
... take measurements from the displayed data - not the full-resolution captured data.

Aha! That explains a few things that were confusing me initially.

...I received mine at the weekend. My first scope, and initially thought - oh dear, I've overbought, should have bought something cheaper/lower end as a starter. But I'm getting much more comfortable with it now.

I'm not the person to give an opinion on tech performance, but it's ticking the boxes that made me think it was the right scope for me - UI and screen size were the main factors. Especially UI. Chinese products generally can struggle a bit in that area. The videos of the Owon I'd seen - despite being on a nice big screen - well, the UI seemed to be all over the place. The Rigol on the other hand makes good use of lots of soft buttons, which minimises sub menus and all that.

The screen is also nice. TBF it's still a far cry from other more general tech. When we're seeing 'retina' displays etc becoming common on sub $500 consumer devices, this is an area where scope manufacturers (one and all) seem to be a few years behind where it's at. But, relative to other scopes at this price, it's pretty good I think, and doesn't have that horrible Owon 'margin' space that chops off a whole load of usable area.

(Dreaming... One day budget scope designers will offer HDMI out, and let us plug in our cheap 720p or 1080p displays. The built in screen will be considered a basic integral screen for scenarios when an external display isn't practical or available. Perhaps there won't even be a built in LCD on some models. For the hi-res out of course they'll need more video memory and more CPU/GPU horsepower to plot those muuuch nicer resolutions, but that's not insurmountable.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: T4P on November 21, 2012, 07:53:57 am
Of course they are common 500$ devices, they have 10-20$ chips that do everything in the phone ... vs 100$ alone for the ADC
AND a proper industrial LCD panel, not a crap one that starts going wobbly in 2-3 years
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 21, 2012, 09:49:56 am
...I received mine at the weekend. My first scope, and initially thought - oh dear, I've overbought, should have bought something cheaper/lower end as a starter. But I'm getting much more comfortable with it now.
Check that you have the latest firmware version 01.00.05 (using the instructions provided above and in other threads).

Quote
The screen is also nice. TBF it's still a far cry from other more general tech. When we're seeing 'retina' displays etc becoming common on sub $500 consumer devices, this is an area where scope manufacturers (one and all) seem to be a few years behind where it's at. But, relative to other scopes at this price, it's pretty good I think, and doesn't have that horrible Owon 'margin' space that chops off a whole load of usable area.
You have to realize that every extra pixel displayed horizontally (and to a lesser extent, vertically) is a major challenge for DSO manufacturers - it's always a tradeoff between resolution, waveform update rate, and blind time - that's why the screen resolutions lag behind other digital devices that cost similar amounts of money. This article gives you an introduction to the idea: http://www.eetimes.com/ContentEETimes/Documents/Schweber/C0906/C0906edited.pdf (http://www.eetimes.com/ContentEETimes/Documents/Schweber/C0906/C0906edited.pdf)

For example, the DS2072 displays 700 pixels horizontally for the waveform. At the 20ns timebase setting, with 14k sample memory, it's processing 700MB of data per second (@ 50k wfrm/s) to those 700 pixels - each one representing ~560ps of time, with an intensity level indicating frequency of occurrence.

Edit: Sorry, my math above was not correct - I wrote it when I first woke up  ;) - although the principal of increasing the resolution also increasing the blind time remains. But the math is as follows:

The DS2072 displays a MAXIMUM of 700 points horizontally for the waveform. At the 20ns timebase setting, with 14k sample memory, the scope is capturing the entire sample depth in 7us (500ps per sample at the 2GS/s rate), but it's only displaying 280ns (or 560 points) of the captured sample. So the DPO processing that takes place is happening on 28MB of data per second (560 * 50k) - likely the highest throughput that the scope can achieve. If you would increase the screen resolution to a higher number (e.g. 1024 pixels), the displayed points would increase - and the waveform update rate would have to drop (and the blind time increase) correspondingly in order to maintain the same throughput.

I think I've got it right this time  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 21, 2012, 06:16:28 pm
I suggest anybody with FW version 00.00.01.00.02 to upgrade first to 00.00.01.00.05 or later.

I have now also upgraded to this 00.00.01.00.05 version. No problems. Thanks for tips!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 01, 2012, 12:15:55 am
Hi folks!

I finally received my DS2072 today.  :)  I ordered from Tequipment.net, and they were out of stock, so it took forever to get, and in my case, it shipped direct from Rigol's warehouse.

I've only had about 30 mins with it(!), but my initial reaction was "NICEEEEE!"  The first thing that really stands out before turning it on is the quality (and weight!) --- way exceeds general expectation of China brand equipment.  Even before using, you feel this is a very well engineered equipment, and I really feel I'm going to enjoy using it.

I'm not sure if there's a way to find the manufacture date, but mine was calibrated on July 20.  I had a quick look at the software/hardware versions I got:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.02
Hardware version: 1.1.0.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

So, the older 01.00.02 firmware is still shipping.  I'm going to contact Tequipment.net for the 01.00.05 firmware update before I use it much.  Most likely I'll get the update on Monday (as it's late Friday here).  I'll post back here with the outcome and more impressions!

Overall, very happy and can't wait to get using it!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 01, 2012, 01:55:39 am
Good to hear you finally got it - it is definitely a pleasure to use so you should enjoy yourself :D  Remember, because of bugs in 1.00.02, it's best if you avoid doing anything that writes to internal memory (self-cal, saving references waveforms or setups, etc.) until after you've updated.

All of the EEVBlog members zibadun, branadic, and EV have copies of the 1.00.05 firmware - you probably can get it from one of them. Just remember, because of the bugs, it's important you do the update during the boot process - and not from the menus - as detailed by drieg here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 01, 2012, 10:09:36 pm
Thanks marmed!  I contacted a few of our great forum members, and have the firmware to update.  But I have some sad news regarding the update...

I followed the instructions from drieg and tried many times to start the update process during boot, but it would not enter "update mode."  Always, the system would complete boot, and then show a message of "new firmware detected, and select OK/CANCEL to do the update.  I select CANCEL, and power OFF, and ON again.

I tried about 6 times to start the update from boot; I pressed "HELP" at various stages during boot: immediately after power on before the logo is shown, and on other attempts when the logo is shown.  Sometimes I pressed "HELP" briefly, other times I held it longer, and sometimes I pressed it multiple times during when the logo is shown.  I never seemed able to enter the update process.

After many attempts, I think may be the only option is to select OK soft-button option from the GUI...so eventually I did.

The update started, and proceeded to 60%, but now it has stopped there.  :(

It has stopped at 60% for at least 15 mins now. 

One member suggest I start over, but I'm not sure the system will recover if I remove power during the boot process.  So, it is still plugged in.

I'm not sure what to do...I'm quite worried  :'(

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 01, 2012, 11:01:50 pm
Well, it is booting now...but not without loss of trial options...

After 1 hour, no progress beyond 60%, so I powered it off.  I powered it on, and unsurprisingly, it did not boot.

Despite failed firmware update, if the boot loader were okay, then I assumed it may be possible to perform an update via the boot process, if I could get it to work.  So (in desperation and with no alternative option!) I tried again to press "HELP" button after power ON during boot.  I tried a couple of times, and again no luck, but then it worked!!!  I think it is worth stressing that HELP must be pressed immediately after ON button, and well before RIGOL logo appears.  It seems that the timing of pressing "HELP" button is very specific, so it may take several attempts to do it right.  If you find that the system boots normally despite pressing HELP button, just turn it off and back on, and try again!

This time, update continued with CH1 flashing, and eventually all LED were on.  I powered OFF, remove USB flash drive, and power ON.  System booted, okay, and System Info says:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0

FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

So, software version is updated, and hardware version has decreased! (hardware version was 1.1.0.0 before the update).

So, I'm lucky it is working now, but unfortunately I've lost all my trial options.  The "Installed" soft-button is grayed out under UTILITY->OPTIONS menu.  I hope I can get the trial options back from a new trial license from Rigol.

Also, I'm worried what other system information (calibration, etc.) might have been lost from the failed system update.  Does anyone know what are consequences of failed update on system info?

Edit: Emphasis added regarding timing of pressing HELP button.
Edit 2: Improved readability and added more emphasis!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 01, 2012, 11:07:10 pm
After many attempts, I think may be the only option is to select OK soft-button option from the GUI...so eventually I did.

The update started, and proceeded to 60%, but now it has stopped there.  :(

I'm not sure what to do...I'm quite worried  :'(

Any suggestions?

Sorry, my scope came with 01.00.05 installed, so I've never done the upgrade. But from what I've read elsewhere (about the DS4000 sticking during the upgrade), I'm afraid if it stays stuck the only remedy is sending it back to the dealer. You can try restarting the procedure, but the problem is that the bug in 01.00.02 (which overwrites critical data) can happen during the non-HELP method of upgrading - so you may have lost calibration data.

Edit: Just saw your message - clearly you lost at least the trial options - which wouldn't have happened with the normal HELP upgrade. I'd be a bit worried about calibration data - you should probably run some tests.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 01, 2012, 11:13:45 pm
So, software version is updated, and hardware version has decreased! (hardware version was 1.1.0.0 before the update).

Perhaps you misread this when you looked the first time? Everyone on the board who has posted their version numbers (and that was mostly people with 01.00.02 firmware) ALL had 1.0.1.0 hardware version.

Never mind, I'm wrong  :-[ - I just looked back and I see that branadic posted his hardware version as 1.1.0.0 --- well, since the hardware obviously doesn't change with a firmware upgrade, I guess Rigol just changed the hardware numbering scheme in the 01.00.05 firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 01, 2012, 11:21:25 pm
So, software version is updated, and hardware version has decreased! (hardware version was 1.1.0.0 before the update).

Perhaps you misread this when you looked the first time? Everyone on the board who has posted their version numbers (and that was mostly people with 01.00.02 firmware) ALL had 1.0.1.0 hardware version.

In this case, not possible --- the hardware version was definitely 1.1.0.0 before the upgrade. 

It is not true that everyone on 01.00.02 firmware had version 1.0.1.0.  For example, see branadic's post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/msg164386/#msg164386 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/msg164386/#msg164386)

This is the first time I noticed there was a hardware version 1.1.0.0, and that was the post I referred to when I was comparing the version numbers of my system.  I specifically noted that my hardware version number was 1.1.0.0 at the time.

branadic: can you check, what is your hardware version number now?  I will not be surprised it has also decreased to 1.0.1.0 as mine did.


Edit: no worries marmad --- we cross-posted!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 01, 2012, 11:45:38 pm
Also, I'm worried what other system information (calibration, etc.) might have been lost from the failed system update.  Does anyone know what are consequences of failed update on system info?

This test might give you some info about the integrity of your calibration data:

Let the scope warm up for +30 minutes.
Run a test signal to the scope and measure the voltage (it can be anything as long as it's a stable voltage).
Then disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Then reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.
Then repeat one more time:
Disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on December 02, 2012, 01:45:20 am
The update started, and proceeded to 60%, but now it has stopped there.  :(
It has stopped at 60% for at least 15 mins now. 

Yes, this is what happens if you don't do it during boot via HELP button on 01.00.02 :( There is a bug in this version, the trial options timer keeps checking installed options during update process and causes flash bank gets changed accidentally in certain time of update process (in your case 60%). This consequently causes that the part of new firmware goes into incorrect part of flash memory and can rewrite some important data (model information, factory calibration,...). FORTUNATELY in DS2 these data have its backups in another part of the memory and after next reboot are automatically recovered.

So, as you already found out, the solution is simple - to recover it with another FW update from the bootloader (through HELP button) and your unit should work fine.

As for the HW version, actually it didn't get downgraded, the new firmware just shows 5 digits instead of 4, there additional "0" on the second place:

Hardware version: 1.1.0.0 (FW 01.00.02)
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0 (FW 01.00.05)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 02, 2012, 02:13:43 am
Also, I'm worried what other system information (calibration, etc.) might have been lost from the failed system update.  Does anyone know what are consequences of failed update on system info?

This test might give you some info about the integrity of your calibration data:

Let the scope warm up for +30 minutes.
Run a test signal to the scope and measure the voltage (it can be anything as long as it's a stable voltage).
Then disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Then reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.
Then repeat one more time:
Disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.

Thanks for the suggestion, marmad.  I have followed your idea, and here is my results:

1. I tried measuring 9V battery.  My Fluke 289 (calibrated < 1 year ago) would give 9.670V, and the Rigol 9.74V after self-cal #1, and 9.72V after self-cal #2.  The DS2072 was set to 2V/div.

I think it was not a good evaluation because of limited DAC resolution on DS2072.  So I did second test:

2.  I connected calibrated signal generator with 2mV amplitude square wave output (0 to 2mV), at 1kHz.  I set DS2072 to 500uV/div, with 100usec / division time-base to see a complete period of square wave.  I set the acquisition to average mode, with 8192 averages.  Wait some time for averages to accumulate.  The time-base information of the square wave (period, frequency) is spot on 1kHz.  For amplitude measurements: Vpp = 1.96mV (expect 2mV), and Avg. = 937uV (expect 1mV). 

I repeated the self-cal with probes detached, and the following is my second set of measurements, for the same test signal:

Vpp = 1.98mV (expect 2mV), and Avg. = 998uV (expect 1mV). 


With 8-bit vertical resolution, and 500uV/div * 8 divisions, then we have 4mV/256 = 15.625uV/bit.  So, the measurements are off 1 or 2 bits of resolution, and this could just be within spec of my signal generator.


I don't think I should expect better repeatability and precision, so perhaps my factory calibration data is still intact.

Anyone wish to do the above test and share their results?

Sparky
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 02, 2012, 02:43:42 am
Thank-you drieg for the additional information on system backup to recover from failed firmware updates in the DS2000 series.  It is a relief that the system factory calibration and other critical data was not lost.

It is also good to have some explanation about the change in hardware version!

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jeeff47 on December 02, 2012, 05:01:00 am
Hello everyone,

I wanted to let everyone know about my experiences. I also ordered the DS2072. I received it about a month ago and i am really impressed with it (for the most part).

Majority of the pros have already been mentioned here numerous times but the key reason why I like it are:
- Wide screen with the option to hide/show the menu on the side
- overall product has some solid hardware the unit is rigid and for the most part fairly portable.
- UI is fairly easy to navigate.

I found originally that as I also like resting my hand on the top of the unit and end up hitting the buttons  (like some of the other members pointed out). But I have gotten used to the scope and I do it far less frequently.

Also the selection knob is sometimes difficult to press but, if you go to other scopes in other brands you will also encounter this.

I have mixed feelings about the measure buttons being on the left side of the screen. I do like the easy access but as I am also accustomed to pressing a measure button. This is something that I will have to get used to.
 
my biggest pet peeves are:
(cons)
I do hear the fan while the unit is running, this may be because normally when using other scopes I have a lot of background noise and the only time I use the DS2072 is late at night after everyone has gone to bed so its very quiet. It may all be in my head but for the most part it isn't to distracting.

I really dislike the scope probes. I find that the hook connector pieces is easy to fall off leaving me looking at my measurement scratching my head and then realizing that I am not measuring anything.

I also noticed that the power button glows (fades on/off) when the unit isn't powered on. although it is cool at first I can see this distracting if I kept the scope on in my living room while watching a movie or something. A software option to turn this feature on/off would be great so that when its off the light doesn't come on for users who don't want it to.

I have also been in contact with Chris Armstrong from Rigol NA. Hes been great. I have spoken with him over the phone and I have also exchanged emails and he is been quick to respond. My distributor originally got me in touch with him and I have no real complaints with the service I have been given (so far :P).

I have also experienced the exact same issues that Sparky has regarding the new firmware download.

Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 02, 2012, 05:09:14 am

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.

Very nice sparky, glad your scope is Ok. What a day!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flyback on December 02, 2012, 10:05:45 pm
Greetings Everyone!

I'm a new kid on the block, new to the forum, and just received a DS2102 direct from Rigol on 11/30.  Great scope, even as I'm becoming familiar with its layout and functionality.  After reading so many posts, thanks to all for the "free education".  Quite a bunch of great folks on the forum, and thanks for sharing your thoughts, experiences and tips so freely,

I do have two questions:
1)  Is Rigol responsive in answering requests for firmware updates?  Despite others on the forum receiving scopes before me, it seems I have the original firmware: 00.00.01.  I was surprised about this, but so be it.  Rigol's website does not appear to point to any f/w downloads.
2) And from the "Gee I Wish I Had Read More Forum Posts" department, I wiped out my trials when doing a self-cal.  Strangely enough, they seems to re-appear from time to time, but the logic of WHEN they re-appear escapes me!  :-// 

Finally, thanks to Dave for offering this forum.  I just recently discovered Dave's Blog and I am thoroughly enjoying his reviews, teardowns, and "rants".  Somehow, he always leaves me smarter and smiling by the time I get to the end of a video.  With his own special style of delivery, even my wife looks forward to watching him!

Again, thanks to all ... I'm enjoying the ride!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 02, 2012, 10:37:23 pm
1)  Is Rigol responsive in answering requests for firmware updates?  Despite others on the forum receiving scopes before me, it seems I have the original firmware: 00.00.01.  I was surprised about this, but so be it.  Rigol's website does not appear to point to any f/w downloads.

Welcome to the forum... and to the group of owners of the new DS2000 series from Rigol  :)

To get your full version information, go to the trigger menu and set Edge, then press F7-F6-F7-Utility button combination quickly. Then check additional info under System > System Info. To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while in the trigger menu.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 02, 2012, 10:52:47 pm
To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while in the trigger menu.

The full version information also disappears, if you power off the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 05, 2012, 06:00:25 am

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.

Very nice sparky, glad your scope is Ok. What a day!

Thanks zibadun! Yes, that day had its moments!!  Was so relieved at the end of it!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 05, 2012, 06:17:29 am
Hi folks!

Just thought I would post an update here following my recent correspondence with Rigol NA.  I had emailed my dealer (Tequipment) to ask for a firmware update before receiving the 01.00.05 firmware revision from folks here.  My email was forwarded to Rigol NA, and I received a reply from one of their Applications Engineers who acknowledged the self-cal bug and mentioned the engineers are working on a fix.  They did not provide me with a 01.00.05 firmware update, even though I requested it specifically.  I also asked when the next firmware revision would be released, and how I can find out when it becomes available, but both questions went unanswered.  :(  It seems Rigol NA are specifically no longer releasing 01.00.05 (publicly, or on request), and that they are waiting for their engineers to wrap-up the next firmware revision.  Currently I'm waiting (hoping...) for a new trial license code.

I will update with more news as I hear it!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jeeff47 on December 05, 2012, 07:26:45 am
Hi Sparky,

I also spoke with Rigol NA. They also informed me that there engineers are working on a new release but were unsure of when that will occur. They may have not provided you with the firmware because they provided me with it and are now familiar with the fact that loading it through the menus is unsuccessful. I would also agree that they are probably waiting for a newer release.

They did ship me out a new unit overnight (which was great), but I am finding that the new unit does have a more stiff power button which is concerning (almost thought it was sticky and not popping back out). I also noticed that the calibration is a little off Measuring an average DC voltage of 3.43V on the new guy. My Fluke meter says 3.30V and I ended up doing the flash reload during startup and got the old unit up again (with no trails) and its reading 3.39V Source is 3.3V (maybe I am just being picky.

I ma shipping the old unit out first thing in the AM back to Rigol NA. I was impressed that they got me a unit so quickly (with the updated firmware already installed.

 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 05, 2012, 07:58:50 am
Hi Sparky,

I also spoke with Rigol NA. They also informed me that there engineers are working on a new release but were unsure of when that will occur. They may have not provided you with the firmware because they provided me with it and are now familiar with the fact that loading it through the menus is unsuccessful. I would also agree that they are probably waiting for a newer release.

They did ship me out a new unit overnight (which was great), but I am finding that the new unit does have a more stiff power button which is concerning (almost thought it was sticky and not popping back out). I also noticed that the calibration is a little off Measuring an average DC voltage of 3.43V on the new guy. My Fluke meter says 3.30V and I ended up doing the flash reload during startup and got the old unit up again (with no trails) and its reading 3.39V Source is 3.3V (maybe I am just being picky.

I ma shipping the old unit out first thing in the AM back to Rigol NA. I was impressed that they got me a unit so quickly (with the updated firmware already installed.

That's a good point; Rigol probably wont send out revised firmware if it is likely to cause them headaches if the update is not correctly applied...which can be a little tricky for the newcomer to get right (despite all the warnings/comments advising how to do it properly!)

One issue with your calibration test could be your vertical resolution settings (volts/div).  My understanding of how this works (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) is the vertical scale is limited to 8-bits, and thus 2^8 = 256 quantization levels.  The vertical scale is 8 divisions high, and so the quantization error (smallest increment of voltage that can be differentiated) is 8 * (volts/div setting)  / 256.

So, the larger your volts/div, the larger the quantization error.  Depending on the setting you used --- and especially if you used different settings on each of your tests --- it might explain the difference in your measurements.  This is why, in my second test, I used the smallest volts/div setting possible (500 uV/div) to reduce quantization error; naturally I had to use a similarly small input (2 mV).

I would expect the Fluke to have a way higher resolution ADC, but I haven't researched that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flyback on December 05, 2012, 10:32:07 pm
Thanks to marmad, EV, Sparky, and jeeff47.

Using the "secret handshake" (special thanks to marmad & EV), I have confirmed the versioning for this scope received direct from Rigol on 11/30.
s/w ver: 00.00.01.00.02
h/w ver: 1.1.0.0
FPGA SPU:03.01.02
FPGA WPU: 00.06.00
FPGA CCU: 12.29.00
FPGA MCU: 00.05

Today I received an email reply from Chris Armstrong of Rigol confirming that an updated f/w is pending (but with no predicted timeframe for release).  In the interim, Rigol is not offering either a public nor beta release.  Likewise, there is not a current fix to safely return the option trials which I wiped out when doing the self-cal.  I guess it's time to practice some patience!

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions and comments.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 05, 2012, 11:09:59 pm
That's a good point; Rigol probably wont send out revised firmware if it is likely to cause them headaches if the update is not correctly applied...which can be a little tricky for the newcomer to get right (despite all the warnings/comments advising how to do it properly!)

The bug with updating the firmware is in the OLDER version - i.e. the one that's already installed on most people's scope (01.00.02) - not the newer version. So even if people don't upgrade to version 01.00.05 (or Rigol doesn't send out that version) the problem (of having to update via BOOT instead of the menus) will remain for everyone with 01.00.02 with the next publicly released version they try to install.

Today I received an email reply from Chris Armstrong of Rigol confirming that an updated f/w is pending (but with no predicted timeframe for release).

Well, I'm not sure what version Chris Armstrong is talking about, but your version (01.00.02) is at least one version behind what many of us are using (01.00.05).

Likewise, there is not a current fix to safely return the option trials which I wiped out when doing the self-cal.  I guess it's time to practice some patience!

I - and at least a few other DS2000 owners on this forum - have gotten replacement trial licenses from Rigol (or their dealers) because ours were expired prematurely by the self-cal bug. You should get this as well - in fact, getting 36 hours (2160 minutes) of free trial licenses is part of the package you paid for - and I would threaten to return the scope if you don't receive it. It's ridiculously easy and virtually cost-free for Rigol to give you this (they just generate a key based on your serial number) - and negligent if they don't replace a feature you paid for but lost due to their error (the bug).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 05, 2012, 11:30:22 pm
So, the larger your volts/div, the larger the quantization error.  Depending on the setting you used --- and especially if you used different settings on each of your tests --- it might explain the difference in your measurements.  This is why, in my second test, I used the smallest volts/div setting possible (500 uV/div) to reduce quantization error; naturally I had to use a similarly small input (2 mV).

I would expect the Fluke to have a way higher resolution DAC, but I haven't researched that.

Yes, absolutely - and not only that, but in reality, oscilloscopes have NEVER been great measurement devices (although they've certainly gotten better at it over the years - and easier to read with DSOs). They were conceived of more as a way to visualize what was happening in an invisible realm - and not so much for getting precise measurement data - as anyone who's tried to count grid lines on a tiny CRT quickly realized.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 05, 2012, 11:55:21 pm
. They were conceived of more as a way to visualize what was happening in an invisible realm - and not so much for getting precise measurement data - as anyone who's tried to count grid lines on a tiny CRT quickly realized.

I'm very  impressed by the boat load of waveform measurements when you push 'Show all'. And an old 465 tek is as well ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 06, 2012, 12:49:42 am
I'm very  impressed by the boat load of waveform measurements when you push 'Show all'. And an old 465 tek is as well ;)

Absolutely - and just one of the ways that a digital scope seduces you to turn a blind eye to it's blind time ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jeeff47 on December 06, 2012, 02:33:54 am
When I originally contacted Rigol about the Self Cal bug. They informed me they were not able to do anything about it aside from giving me the code to permanently unlock the scope features or to return it to Rigol for a replacement. In the end I ended up getting the replacement (the long way around).
Unfortunately I would assume that they wont be giving the "Trail" code out any longer to try to bypass people trying to abuse the system and if the customer really wanted the features unlocked again then they can return the unit as being defective.

Honestly, I would think it would be easier to just give the code out and once they generate it log it in a database at there facility so that you get "one free pass".

Marmad did you get your code from Rigol NA? have you expired it yet? If so have you tried the code a second time, and did it work?


When speaking with Chris he mentioned that the Rigol team was working on a new firmware that would correct/prevent the self cal bug. The vibe I got was that the code would prevent the self cal from erasing the trails and anybody who had already accidently erased them then the trails would be restored. I didn't get any additional information regarding any other improvements they might through into that release.
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 06, 2012, 08:30:39 am
The bug with updating the firmware is in the OLDER version - i.e. the one that's already installed on most people's scope (01.00.02) - not the newer version. So even if people don't upgrade to version 01.00.05 (or Rigol doesn't send out that version) the problem (of having to update via BOOT instead of the menus) will remain for everyone with 01.00.02 with the next publicly released version they try to install.

That makes sense; seems everyone getting scopes with revision 01.00.02 firmware is going to have to go through the BOOT update method at least once.

I - and at least a few other DS2000 owners on this forum - have gotten replacement trial licenses from Rigol (or their dealers) because ours were expired prematurely by the self-cal bug. You should get this as well - in fact, getting 36 hours (2160 minutes) of free trial licenses is part of the package you paid for - and I would threaten to return the scope if you don't receive it. It's ridiculously easy and virtually cost-free for Rigol to give you this (they just generate a key based on your serial number) - and negligent if they don't replace a feature you paid for but lost due to their error (the bug).

I sent Rigol my serial number, but so far no new trial serial (only a "were truly sorry" apology).  I've now asked specifically for new trial serial, and mentioned that it was part of the package I paid for.  In response, I received an automated "out of the office" reply...  This issue would be considered a manufacture defect and I should be able to exchange the scope at no cost.  I'm tempted to contact my dealer and ask for an exchange.  If I don't hear positive news by tomorrow morning, I may go this route.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 06, 2012, 12:31:13 pm
Unfortunately I would assume that they wont be giving the "Trail" code out any longer to try to bypass people trying to abuse the system
I'm not exactly sure how this could help people abuse the system - unless there is a bug in restarting the trial options (which is a possibility). If you mean 'abuse the system' in the sense of trying to crack their options code; in order to create a key generator, you have to get inside the scope's firmware and see exactly what math it's performing on the code in order to reverse engineer it. If you were dead set on trying to do this, you could just buy one of the option packages and use that key.

Marmad did you get your code from Rigol NA? have you expired it yet? If so have you tried the code a second time, and did it work?
I got my replacement trial license from my dealer - who requested it from Rigol for me (BTW, it took a little time to finally get it). It seems to me that this is a better approach to getting it - since the dealer has more pull with Rigol than an individual buyer - and of course, you have more pull with your dealer than you would with Rigol - since they are the ones who will have to deal initially with an exchange or a return.  I'm in the middle of house renovations, so I've had no time for the scope lately - so I haven't used my replacement license yet (I would want to have as much time as possible with the options). But my dealer tells me that it will reset the options to the 2160 minutes - and will only work once. But maybe there is an as-yet-unreported bug which allows the replacement trial license code to be reused over and over - but I've heard privately from at least one member that it didn't work a second time.

Anyway, this got me thinking about in which regions Rigol (or it's affiliated dealers) are dispensing either the 01.00.05 firmware or replacement trial licenses. I scoured the various threads here for info - and the first post I found referencing the 01.00.05 firmware was this one: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg155862/#msg155862 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg155862/#msg155862) - which mentions Rigol EU. I'm also located in the EU, so it makes me wonder if this version has not been officially released for NA. Would anyone who has gotten either an official copy of the 01.00.05 firmware (I don't mean from another board member) or a replacement trial license care to share where they're located? Perhaps the info can help other users leverage their respective dealers/Rigol into getting them as well.

But as I, and other members here, have pointed out - there are bugs (aside from the self-cal one) in the firmware (both 01.00.02 and 01.00.05) that appear to effect the appearance and disappearance of the trial options. I'm afraid, unfortunately, that Rigol is putting more energy into trying to squash these in their next official firmware release than into fixing what I consider to be the real problems or adding new features. But we'll see what happens.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on December 08, 2012, 09:40:19 am
I got my replacement trial license from my dealer - who requested it from Rigol for me (BTW, it took a little time to finally get it). It seems to me that this is a better approach to getting it - since the dealer has more pull with Rigol than an individual buyer - and of course, you have more pull with your dealer than you would with Rigol - since they are the ones who will have to deal initially with an exchange or a return.
True, better to ask your dealer, they should be able to apply for a new trial code for you.

... I haven't used my replacement license yet (I would want to have as much time as possible with the options). But my dealer tells me that it will reset the options to the 2160 minutes - and will only work once....
Actually it will add 2160 minutes to the current count ;)

But as I, and other members here, have pointed out - there are bugs (aside from the self-cal one) in the firmware (both 01.00.02 and 01.00.05) that appear to effect the appearance and disappearance of the trial options. I'm afraid, unfortunately, that Rigol is putting more energy into trying to squash these in their next official firmware release than into fixing what I consider to be the real problems or adding new features. But we'll see what happens.
As for the new firmware, Rigol says:
"R&D still haven't release the new version and we have made effort to promote this progress. I believe it will be released in this month."
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 08, 2012, 09:54:29 am
As for the new firmware, Rigol says:
"R&D still haven't release the new version and we have made effort to promote this progress. I believe it will be released in this month."

@drieg - Do you know if version 01.00.05 was released for North America (was it only in EU and Australia)? It seems as if most of the NA people here are getting units with 01.00.02 installed - and being told to wait for the next release.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 08, 2012, 10:36:39 pm
I seem to have found another bug in the DS2000 series. I don't have a lot of time at the moment to try to figure out it's exact parameters and limits, but basically there seems to be a bug which limits the trigger position when using fine Horizontal Scale adjustment at certain settings.

I was fooling around with replicating Dave's idea for Bode plotting (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-396-bode-plotting-on-your-osciloscope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-396-bode-plotting-on-your-osciloscope/))with the scope - and I was sending a linear sweep into the scope and trying to fill the entire screen with a single sweep. That means you have to switch the Horizontal Scale knob to the fine adjustment - then change the scale until it approx. fills the screen - then move the trigger position until it's on the left edge of the screen.

But I found that when I was set to < 500ms scale, I couldn't move the trigger position fully left or right. The attached .pngs show the farthest left and farthest right I was able to move the trigger with a 440ms setting (the point where the waveform rises is the horizontal trigger postion). Not only that, but if you move the trigger position all the way left, and then use the fine HS adjust to go below 500ms (e.g. down to 498ms) the trigger postion jumps to the position shown in the farthest left .png

Perhaps someone else can test to see if they can replicate? When I have time I will investigate further.

Edit: Bug/problem described in detail below in next post.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 09, 2012, 08:40:28 am
R = 4.7 kOhm, C = 1 nF.
Sweep from 1Hz to 1MHz at 1 second.
Horisontal scale is 1000/14 = 71.43 ms, but it can be set only to 71.5 ms.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 09, 2012, 10:57:25 am
Thanks, EV - but your post isn't about the bug/problem I addressed.

After further study, I discovered what the problem is:

At any normal horizontal scale setting >= 20ms  (i.e. 20ms/50ms/100ms/200ms/500ms/1s/2s/5s/10s/20s/50s/100s/200s/500s/1ks)  the maximum/minimum horizontal trigger position (the orange D number in the upper right corner of the screen which reads 0.00000000ps when zeroed) is +10/-14x the current setting. So, for example, if you have the scale set to 50ms, the max/min amounts you can move the trigger position are left +500ms (50ms*10) or right -700ms (50ms*-14). But if you use the FINE scale adjust, the max/min position becomes locked to the next lower major division*10/-14 - instead of staying linked to whatever the actual setting is.  This can cause the trigger position to jump and/or become frozen (with the 'Parameters overrange!' message) in the middle of the display.

To see this effect clearly, set your horizontal scale to one of those mentioned above (e.g. 50ms), send in a signal, and move the trigger position as far as possible to the left (which, with the 50ms example, will be 500ms). That is what is shown in the attached BEFORE.png (note white H 50ms top left of screen - and orange D 500ms top right). Then switch to FINE adjust: Press -> [Horizontal] Menu -> ScaleAdjust -> Fine - and turn the horizontal scale knob just one notch clockwise. You will see your trigger position jump to the right of the screen (and be unable to be moved farther left). That is the AFTER.png (note white H 49.8ms top left of screen - and orange D 200ms top right).

Edit: I'm fairly certain that Rigol will again say that this behavior is by design - but, IMO, it's not very good design and it's rather annoying when your trigger position can't be moved to the edges of the display.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 09, 2012, 04:50:00 pm
At any normal horizontal scale setting >= 20ms  (i.e. 20ms/50ms/100ms/200ms/500ms/1s/2s/5s/10s/20s/50s/100s/200s/500s/1ks)  the maximum/minimum horizontal trigger position (the orange D number in the upper right corner of the screen which reads 0.00000000ps when zeroed) is +10x/-14x the current

You are right, but at the 20 ms scale position only the right side is limited. In my pictures with the scale value 71.5 ms, it was possble to move the trigger mark to the left or right side.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 09, 2012, 05:07:59 pm
You are right, but at the 20 ms scale position only the right side is limited. In my pictures with the scale value 71.5 ms, it was possble to move the trigger mark to the left or right side.

Yes, if the scale is set to 71.5ms, that means, according to the formula I mentioned in my previous post, that you are limited to +10/-14x the next lowest major division (50ms) which means you can set the trigger to +500ms or -700ms. In your images, you have the trigger set to -502.4ms, which is well within the range.

Sometimes the range will allow you to reach the edge of the display - I'm not saying that it's not possible with some FINE scale settings. What I am saying is that there are many many FINE scale settings when you can't get the trigger point moved all the way to one or both edges - try it with a 42.6ms scale setting - or 99.5ms or 196ms or 4.9s or etc, etc.

Obviously, this isn't a serious issue - just another annoying one. The worst case scenario with this 'bug' is when you're trying to adjust a signal to fill the display and you need to use the FINE scale adjust, and then you can't move the image anymore because you're arbitrarily locked to the previously mentioned limits. I don't understand why Rigol doesn't just use the +10/-14 rule applied to whatever the actual setting is (i.e. if you are set to 71.5ms, you can move to +715/-1001ms).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 09, 2012, 05:31:18 pm
Yes, this is absolutely a bug and should be corrected in the future firmware. Who tells it to Rigol?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 09, 2012, 05:42:22 pm
Yes, this is absolutely a bug and should be corrected in the future firmware. Who tells it to Rigol?

Well, I posted here and also emailed drieg about it - he normally reports bugs to Rigol. But, as I mentioned earlier, Rigol will undoubtedly say that it's not a bug and 'is by design', so we'll just have to wait and see if they do anything about it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on December 11, 2012, 08:01:14 pm
Yes, I reported this bug to Rigol, let's see if they can fix it..

@drieg - Do you know if version 01.00.05 was released for North America (was it only in EU and Australia)? It seems as if most of the NA people here are getting units with 01.00.02 installed - and being told to wait for the next release.
I don't think Rigol makes any difference between EU and NA, even here in EU, you still get new units with 01.00.02 installed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2012, 08:06:58 pm
I don't think Rigol makes any difference between EU and NA, even here in EU, you still get new units with 01.00.02 installed.

Well, I only asked that because it appears that some people are saying that their NA dealers are telling them that there is no new firmware to be had yet (after 01.00.02).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 12, 2012, 04:51:53 pm
Here is the current set of full (strange) rules that apply to maximum/minimum trigger positions (offsets) with various horizontal scale settings on the DS2000 series (with MEMORY set to AUTO):


If the horizontal scale is set to any COARSE setting from 2ns to 10ms, then the trigger can be offset from +1.0s to -14*current COARSE setting
Example: 10us = +1s/-140us

If the horizontal scale is set to any COARSE setting of 20ms to 1ks, then the trigger can be offset from +10*current COARSE setting to -14*current COARSE setting
Example: 5s = +50s/-70s

If the horizontal scale is set to any FINE setting of 2.05ns to 19.90ms, then the trigger can be offset from +1.0s to -14*next lowest COARSE setting
Example: 19.9ns = +1s/-140ns

If the horizontal scale is set to any FINE setting of 20.20ms to 995.0s, then the trigger can be offset from +10*next lowest COARSE setting to -14*next lowest COARSE setting
Example: 49.8ms = +200ms/-280ms


Clearly these limits are tied to the 14M of standard memory - and I haven't tried yet to see if they are the same with specific sample depth settings.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 14, 2012, 08:51:27 pm
Hello folks, things have been nutty this past week --- no time to write --- but here I am now :)

I followed marmad's earlier suggestion of going through my distributor to get a new trial license code, and that worked :)  The same Rigol tech replied to me with new code within 24hrs.  I've no doubt the process was accelerated when I asked my distributor if I could exchange my unit for a new one because I have not received what I paid for!

Also, to follow-up on on what marmad and drieg have commented about firmware releases, I concur it appears Rigol NA are avoiding releasing 01.00.05 firmware.  I have not heard anything further from Rigol NA, but it appears they prefer to release only the new revision and squash as many bugs as possible with one update; this seems reasonable if the new revision is soon-to-be released.  I just noticed on the Rigol NA website: "DS2000 DS4000 DS6000 Firmware Upgrade Procedure" in the FAQ section of DS2072 page, however no PDF file is listed yet. 

(On DG4000 series page, there is PDF file of firmware upgrade describing "boot" update method --- I think we can expect similar for DS2000 series.)

@marmad: Thanks for your detailed investigation of the trigger positioning bug --- it does seem an annoyance, as very common that one wants to use the entire width of the display to see their signal.  I will see this myself, soon.  Thanks to drieg for reporting the bug to Rigol :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 14, 2012, 09:25:51 pm
Thanks for the report, Sparky. Interesting to hear of Rigol NA's stance regarding the interim 01.00.05 firmware.

I've started a new thread here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/?topicseen#msg171575), called 'Software, tips, and tricks for Rigol DS2000/4000/6000 UltraVision DSOs'. I've posted my first release of some Rigol UltraVision utilities there - there will be much more to follow in the future; whenever I can find time.

Please: if you try the software, do me a favor and give some feedback. Remember: ALL feedback is good - and negative feedback is often the most useful. Bugs? Crashes? Questions? Comments? Broken, missing, or desired features? Anything will be helpful. There aren't that many of us UltraVision users yet - so every bit helps!!  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 15, 2012, 09:14:58 am
I found another bug in the DS2000 firmware: again, nothing major - just another annoyance.

I have 4063 recorded frames playing back with 'repeat' set - and every time the scope gets to frame 1302, it loops back to frame 1 and starts playing from there again. If I playback with 'repeat' off, it plays until frame 4063 correctly. So the 'repeat' playback of recorded frames doesn't seem to work correctly all of the time. I'm not sure what the parameters are but I think it has to do with the total number of frames.

To see this effect, go to Record Open and record a large amount of frames (i.e. set your horizontal scale to a fast setting so that you're recording > 2000 frames). Then stop recording, go to playback, set 'repeat' on, and start playing it. It will likely loop back to frame 1 without ever reaching the final frame.

EDIT: Moved the full bug list of the current firmware to the first post of this thread for easy locating.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 16, 2012, 07:19:35 pm
Teneyes: did you try playing back different groups of frames you'd recorded? I'm wondering why you wouldn't see this bug - I saw it happen with several different groups of frames, I wonder if it's a new bug introduced in 01.00.05?

Can someone else running 01.00.05 test for the playback looping bug? It's very easy to check (and to see when it happens).
Title: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: TP on December 16, 2012, 10:32:09 pm
(A couple of users suggested I repost in this thread)

I bought a Rigol DS2072 to replace my 35 year old Phillips PM3212 that just died.  I've been evaluating the High Res mode and it does work.  I programmed my computers 16 bit DAC to produce a sine wave with a tiny 0.7 LSB blip on it, much like the Agilent video posted earlier (in the other thread).  The Rigol could easily resolve the blip in High Res mode despite the fact that it was only 0.7 LSB of the 8-bit ADC.*  The first figure shows the High Res trace blown up.  This trace was taken 100 mV/div and 2 ms/div and blown up post acquisition to 5 mV/div.  The sub LSB blip is easily resolvable.  Of course, for a repetitive signal you could also just turn up the sensitivity to 5 mV/div and hunt for the blip with the offset and time/div and this is shown in the second figure. 

Of course, the extra resolution you get from boxcar averaging doesn't mean much if the DNL (differential non-linearity) of the ADC is not good, so I used the ramp and histogram method to measure DNL.  The results are that it's pretty good: only +-0.15 LSB (see third image).  I also did a best line fit deviation and the error is somewhat larger at +-0.5 LSB.  (This is very similar to INL, integrated non-linearity, but it wasn't exactly calculated by integrating the DNL, it's just the deviation from a straight line fit to the ramp signal.  INL specs are always worse than DNL, but the refer more to absolute accuracy not the ability to resolve small signals.)  Note these are upper limits as it depends on the test signal generated by my computers 16-bit DAC being perfect.

I also measured the noise on the 500uV/div scale as 80uV RMS in Normal acquisition mode and 40uV RMS with the High Res mode, both with the 20MHz BW limit on.  With the 20MHz BW limit off and Normal mode I got 100uV RMS.  These are all with the input shorted with a 50 ohm terminator.

*When calculating LSB remember that the 8 vertical divisions are not the full range of the ADC; it's actually 10.24 divisions with headroom off the top and bottom of the screen plot region.

Other notes/problems: 

Inputting a pulse that should have a rise time of 5 ns (according to the specs for the chip I used) gives a rise time of 7.1 ns on the scope.  That means the scope rise time is 5 ns which matches the 70 MHz spec.

The "Measure" box does appear to only work with the screen trace data, but the 6-digit frequency "Counter" works directly from the signal (with the trip point defined by the trigger level).  On a 1 MHz input signal the Rigol "Counter" matched my external frequency counter by 10 Hz.  (Of course the frequency counter is 40 years old so who knows if it's accurate.)  On my scope the "Measure" box can get hung requiring a reboot.  If I input a 1 MHz signal and resolve the cycles the "Measure" box gives correct data.  If I slow down the time/div, say to see modulation of the RF carrier, the "Measure" box will get confused and quotes, say, freq > something.  If I speed up the time/div to see the 1 MHz cycles again the "Measure" box will remain hung with bad data and nothing I tried gets it working again except a power down.

I was unable to get the scope to save screen captures to the USB stick from the "Storage" menu; it just saves a blank screen with no trace.  It will save correctly to the USB if I press the "Print" button (no printer attached).  It also saves data in CSV mode properly.  Note that even if you take data in High Res mode the data saved externally in CSV mode is still 8-bit quantized.  High Res cleans up the data saved, but it's still 8-bit and no extra precision shows up in the file (while it does show up on the screen).

All in all I like this scope a lot.  Note that I'm an old person who was used to analog scopes and I've had a dislike for digital scopes for quite awhile, so I'm a bit hard on them.

Edit: added caveat
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: marmad on December 16, 2012, 11:31:48 pm
Thanks for reposting, TP, and welcome.

The "Measure" box does appear to only work with the screen trace data, but the 6-digit frequency "Counter" works directly from the signal (with the trip point defined by the trigger level).

This is typical of low cost DSOs - including the Agilent 2000/3000X.

Quote
On my scope the "Measure" box can get hung requiring a reboot.  If I input a 1 MHz signal and resolve the cycles the "Measure" box gives correct data.  If I slow down the time/div, say to see modulation of the RF carrier, the "Measure" box will get confused and quotes, say, freq > something.  If I speed up the time/div to see the 1 MHz cycles again the "Measure" box will remain hung with bad data and nothing I tried gets it working again except a power down.

I haven't noticed this on mine - I'll check tomorrow to see if I can replicate it.

Quote
I was unable to get the scope to save screen captures to the USB stick from the "Storage" menu; it just saves a blank screen with no trace.

I certainly don't have this problem on my DS2072 - I've saved many captures to sticks. Have you tried various sizes and makes of sticks?

Would you mind reporting what versions of the firmware/hardware,etc you are running? You can get detailed version info by following these instructions: go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger, then press F7-F6-F7-Utility buttons one after another quickly. Then check additional info under Utility > System > System Info. To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while inside the Trigger menu - or reboot the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 16, 2012, 11:51:39 pm
OK, I caught it, before I was only recording 1 group . this time I recorded 2 groups , frames 1- 450 , and 451-2449, and have space for 8127.
and yes playback plays and loops only in the 1-450 group , but if I move into the second group with the Wavefunder 'big' knob then go to run from pause.It will play to 2449 then jump into the 1-450 group and loop there.
At times the Run/Stop on top was different from the '||>'  run/pause button, one would cause the playback right to 8127 before looping back to 1, never tried 3 or more  groups.
 What is the best use of Run/stop and '||>' buttons???

@Teneyes: Wait a minute - I'm totally confused. You can actually record separate groups of frames individually - while retaining the others in memory? I haven't tried this - when I mentioned 'groups' in my previous post, I was only referring to recording a bunch of frames - then trying to loop them repeatedly - then recording another bunch of frames - then trying to loop them, etc, etc. A large number of frames recorded with Record Open don't loop correctly on my DSO.

But probably we should start by defining WHICH type of recording we're doing when we make these tests; I'm not sure if all of your tests were performed with Record Open. I have ONLY used the Record Open function and not the normal Record function. Although both functions create frames which can be played back - they use different buttons (and SCPI commands - it's definitely kind of a mess) to perform certain functions, and since Record Open continually loops while recording, overwriting previous frames, it's quite likely that it might have bugs that are not present in the normal Record.

Anyway the bug which I've reported in the earlier post (and is still unconfirmed by someone else with 01.00.05 firmware) involves playing back repeatedly all frames captured in Record Open mode. It's VERY easy to test this with the software I posted in the other thread - 3 mouse clicks. Could someone please give it a try? When playing back on repeat, keep your eye on Rigol's menu which lists end frame and current frame. If your scope has the bug mine does, you will see the current frame jump to 1 before it reaches the end frame.
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: TP on December 17, 2012, 12:25:11 am


I certainly don't have this problem on my DS2072 - I've saved many captures to sticks. Have you tried various sizes and makes of sticks?

Would you mind reporting what versions of the firmware/hardware,etc you are running? You can get detailed version info by following these instructions: go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger, then press F7-F6-F7-Utility buttons one after another quickly. Then check additional info under Utility > System > System Info. To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while inside the Trigger menu.

I tried it on a different USB stick and it worked this time.  Then I tried it on the original USB stick and it also worked.  Bizarre, as it failed repeatedly before.

Which are the F7 & F6 "Utility" buttons?  You mean switch to the Utility menu and hit the Self Cal - System - Self Cal or stay in the "Trigger" Menu and hit the bottom -second from bottom- bottom button in that menu (both blank)?  Actually, that second one didn't work.  FW just reports 00.00.01.
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 12:28:29 am
I tried it on a different USB stick and it worked this time.  Then I tried it on the original USB stick and it also worked.  Bizarre, as it failed repeatedly before.

Well, good that its working in any case.

Quote
Which are the F7 & F6 "Utility" buttons?  You mean switch to the Utility menu and hit the Self Cal - System - Self Cal or stay in the "Trigger" Menu and hit the bottom -second from bottom- bottom button in that menu (both blank)?  Actually, that second one didn't work.  FW just reports 00.00.01.

Yes, F6 & F7 refer to the sixth and seventh unlabeled right menu keys - they have no function in the Trigger menu. So, while in Trigger menu, you press 'Menu7' then 'Menu6' then 'Menu7' then the 'Utility' button - but do it fast. If it doesn't work, try again faster.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on December 17, 2012, 02:04:46 am
FW 00.00.01.00.02
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 01:43:43 pm
On my scope the "Measure" box can get hung requiring a reboot.  If I input a 1 MHz signal and resolve the cycles the "Measure" box gives correct data.  If I slow down the time/div, say to see modulation of the RF carrier, the "Measure" box will get confused and quotes, say, freq > something.  If I speed up the time/div to see the 1 MHz cycles again the "Measure" box will remain hung with bad data and nothing I tried gets it working again except a power down.

@TP: I was unable to replicate this error on my scope, either using the individual Frequency measurement or the 'Measure All' box. I have to conclude that it's either a firmware version 01.00.02 bug - or that there was an added variable in your setup/scope settings that I don't know about that provoked the bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 17, 2012, 06:59:35 pm
Anyway the bug which I've reported in the earlier post (and is still unconfirmed by someone else with 01.00.05 firmware) involves playing back repeatedly all frames captured in Record Open mode. It's VERY easy to test this with the software I posted in the other thread - 3 mouse clicks. Could someone please give it a try? When playing back on repeat, keep your eye on Rigol's menu which lists end frame and current frame. If your scope has the bug mine does, you will see the current frame jump to 1 before it reaches the end frame.

Hi marmad, as your RUU software is working via USB for me (though I would still like LAN to work), I just checked this out on my scope (same 01.00.05 firmware).

I can confirm the bug: when on normal play (without repeat) all frames play back (same as when using the navigation knobs on the unit).  When I enable "repeat" (or press the Pause|Play button on the unit) the current frame jumps to 1 before it reaches the end.  When I press Stop button (either RUU software or on the unit) it jumps to the last frame.

Definitely a bug, and would be great to have this forwarded to our friend drieg for Rigol's attention!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 07:45:13 pm
Hi marmad, as your RUU software is working via USB for me (though I would still like LAN to work), I just checked this out on my scope (same 01.00.05 firmware).

I can confirm the bug: when on normal play (without repeat) all frames play back (same as when using the navigation knobs on the unit).  When I enable "repeat" (or press the Pause|Play button on the unit) the current frame jumps to 1 before it reaches the end.  When I press Stop button (either RUU software or on the unit) it jumps to the last frame.

Definitely a bug, and would be great to have this forwarded to our friend drieg for Rigol's attention!

Thank you again, Sparky - you are a developers delight! Just for that, I have fixed the problems with the LAN connection for you and posted the new version over at the other thread  ;)

One thing to note: if you're planning to save a bunch of captured frames, the speed of USB vs. LAN becomes significant. For example, a quick test on my system shows elapsed time for saving 6 frames as follows: USB = 15.2 seconds / LAN = 36 seconds  :P
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 08:18:54 pm
I can confirm the bug: when on normal play (without repeat) all frames play back (same as when using the navigation knobs on the unit).  When I enable "repeat" (or press the Pause|Play button on the unit) the current frame jumps to 1 before it reaches the end.  When I press Stop button (either RUU software or on the unit) it jumps to the last frame.

Just did some more testing, and it's a bug that's limited to frames recorded while in Open mode - it does not seem to affect frames recorded in normal Record mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 17, 2012, 08:52:17 pm
@TP, re "Measure" , I have FW 1.00.02  and measuring the 1kHz Test, I get Freq =1.000KHz with scan set up to 5ms/div, that is 5 pulses per div.
 Now at 10 ms/div ,IE 10 pulses , DSO shows Freq > 1.000kHz
 and  at 20 ms/div ,IE 20 pulses , DSO shows Freq > 0.833kHz
 and  at 50 ms/div ,IE 50 pulses , DSO shows Freq = ****
BUT
    by pushing <SCALE>  and going into Zoom mode , then narrowing the Zoom back to 5.000ms the Freq = 1.000kHz , BUT no Hanging of DSO
  I will next try your test with a Modulated source at 1MHz
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 09:37:20 pm
A simple test to check for the 'looping' bug on the DS2000 - without using my RUU software - which makes it easier - but could make you think my software is causing it  ;D

1) Set scale to 2ms/div (this allows for just 6 frames to be recorded - or it might be different on your scope due to memory settings - if so, select a scale that gives <10 frames)
2) Go to Utility -> Record -> Mode -> Open
3) Press 'Run/Stop" to stop recording.
4) Go to Utility -> Record -> Mode -> Playback
5) Set 'Interval' to 500ms
6) Set 'Play Mode' to loop.
7) Press '|| >' button and watch 'Current Frame' counter on Menu as it tries to loop. For me, sometimes it will count 1,2,3,4,5,6 - sometimes 1,2,6 - sometimes 1,6 - sometimes just 6! Or any other possible permutation... I can't see any pattern to the bug.

To quickly repeat test over and over, just repeat:
8 ) Press '[]' to stop playback.
9 ) Press '[]' again to enter 'Record Open' mode.
10) Press 'Run/Stop' to record.
11) Press 'Run/Stop' again to stop.
12) Press '|| >' to playback.

I get a different 'pattern' of looping with almost every test  :P

I have already sent this on to drieg for reporting to Rigol. They have confirmed the previously reported trigger setting bug and plan to fix it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 18, 2012, 12:27:24 am
Record open, playback in loop mode Interval 500mS , I get  Frames 1,2, 6 allways
like Marmad
I changed mem.Depth to 1.4Mpts and get 62frames max.  then playback
I get all frames 1-62.
I am using normal trigger , and touch finger for 60Hz and touch test 1KHz for  half of the frames .

Oops
  now looping differently
   1-20   all 60Hz then   21 start of 1kHz  then JUMP to frame  62 1KHz end of Frames ,then Loops to 1

BUT if I use waveFinder knob , it goes to pause and if I scan to Frame 23 and "RUN" then
displays 23-62 then Loops back to 1,

If I 'wavefind' to Frame 22 and Press 'RUN' in JUMPS to 61 and loops to 1

Seems like Frames 22 causes the jump to End ,Frame 62
Bugging!!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 19, 2012, 03:41:40 am
Record open, playback in loop mode Interval 500mS , I get  Frames 1,2, 6 allways like Marmad

Thanks for confirming the bug in 01.00.02, Teneyes.
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: TP on December 19, 2012, 07:04:57 am
On my scope the "Measure" box can get hung requiring a reboot.  If I input a 1 MHz signal and resolve the cycles the "Measure" box gives correct data.  If I slow down the time/div, say to see modulation of the RF carrier, the "Measure" box will get confused and quotes, say, freq > something.  If I speed up the time/div to see the 1 MHz cycles again the "Measure" box will remain hung with bad data and nothing I tried gets it working again except a power down.

@TP: I was unable to replicate this error on my scope, either using the individual Frequency measurement or the 'Measure All' box. I have to conclude that it's either a firmware version 01.00.02 bug - or that there was an added variable in your setup/scope settings that I don't know about that provoked the bug.

Well, I can't replicate it now either.  That first day the scope was definitely acting weird.. maybe first day jitters :).  Anyway, it works perfectly now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 19, 2012, 07:11:24 pm
OK, I caught it, before I was only recording 1 group . this time I recorded 2 groups , frames 1- 450 , and 451-2449, and have space for 8127.
and yes playback plays and loops only in the 1-450 group , but if I move into the second group with the Wavefunder 'big' knob then go to run from pause.It will play to 2449 then jump into the 1-450 group and loop there.

@Teneyes - I've been trying to do what you mentioned here, but no luck.
I set scale to 1us = 4065 frames.
First I record all 4064 frames.
Then I change end frame to 1000 and record 1 - 1000.
But how can you move from 1 group to the other? The scope seems to only let me playback 1 -1000 - and the big Navigation Knob won't let me move out of that group.

I can't see how it's possible to have two groups of frames recorded - and move between them - because you can't specify a 'start frame' for recording - only an 'end frame'.
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: marmad on December 19, 2012, 07:40:39 pm
Well, I can't replicate it now either.  That first day the scope was definitely acting weird.. maybe first day jitters :).  Anyway, it works perfectly now.

It might be a certain hard-to-repeat selection of settings and/or inputs - if you see it again, please note down as many variables (scope settings, etc) as possible. In any case, I'm glad it's working for you now  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on December 20, 2012, 02:27:21 am
A simple test to check for the 'looping' bug on the DS2000 - <cut>

I can confirm that my scope does the same as yours in Record Open mode and that it works properly in straight record mode (i.e. just pressing the record button).  I also get 7 frames in Record and only 6 in Record Open.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 20, 2012, 08:43:30 am
Hi. I am new to this forum. Thanks for some very interesting posts on the DS2000 series. I've just ordered a DS2022 thanks to this information. I'm wondering if the trial feature timing is based on how many hours the scope is on, or if it's a real-time-clock from when I turn the scope on the first time. So, basically will turning it off make it last longer? Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 20, 2012, 10:05:28 am
@larsie, Yes the trial version timer is only the DSO ON time, so when the wife calls be sure to shut it off. Oops lost another 200 minutes :) ,Enjoy.  and Watch the Self-Cal feature as it removes the trial version  options! |O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 20, 2012, 10:28:24 am
. I've just ordered a DS2022 thanks to this information. ...

Maybe you mean DS2202?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 20, 2012, 10:31:45 am
. I've just ordered a DS2022 thanks to this information. ...
Maybe you mean DS2202?

Oops... yes  :) :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on December 21, 2012, 07:33:12 am
I have a question about RMS voltage measurement.  I'm checking out my brand new DS2072, which I chose based on all of the good info on the forum.  Either I'm doing something wrong or the RMS measurement function doesn't work very well.  Here's the setup: Channel 1 connected to the scope's calibration square wave, probe on x10, vertical 100 mV/division, horizontal 100 uSec/division, DC coupling.  V min  reads -4.0 mV and V max is 308 mV.  These are ok.  V rms reads 211 mV, which is bogus.  I think it should be 156 mV.  Am I maybe doing something incorrectly?   With AC coupling the RMS value is closer but still quite a bit off.  I just got the scope from Tequipment, software version is 00.00.01.00.02 .
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 21, 2012, 08:21:02 am
I think it might be correct. Isn't the formula Vrms= Vpk*sqrt(f*T) for a positive square wave? Maybe not?

Edit: I think I mean Vp / sqrt(2)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 21, 2012, 12:02:35 pm
I have a question about RMS voltage measurement.  I'm checking out my brand new DS2072, which I chose based on all of the good info on the forum.  Either I'm doing something wrong or the RMS measurement function doesn't work very well.  Here's the setup: Channel 1 connected to the scope's calibration square wave, probe on x10, vertical 100 mV/division, horizontal 100 uSec/division, DC coupling.  V min  reads -4.0 mV and V max is 308 mV.  These are ok.  V rms reads 211 mV, which is bogus.  I think it should be 156 mV.  Am I maybe doing something incorrectly?   With AC coupling the RMS value is closer but still quite a bit off.  I just got the scope from Tequipment, software version is 00.00.01.00.02 .
As far as I can tell, it's reasonably accurate (which is about the best you can say about most measurements on an oscilloscope):  The calibration signal is a 3V 1kHz positive square wave with a 500us duration = 2.121Vrms.

Check it with this online calculator (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/RMS-Calculator.phtml).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on December 21, 2012, 07:50:17 pm
As far as I can tell, it's reasonably accurate (which is about the best you can say about most measurements on an oscilloscope):  The calibration signal is a 3V 1kHz positive square wave with a 500us duration = 2.121Vrms.
Thanks.  I feel like I'm at an AA meeting having to say "I'm an electrical engineer and I don't know how RMS works".  It has always seemed intuitive to me that a square wave with its minimum voltage at zero has the same RMS value as a square wave symmetric about zero.  Now I see that the math says otherwise, and I even found a couple of web sites that incorrectly agreed with me.  I think it has to do with the DC component, it's just hard to suddenly break with decades of wrong thinking.  So it's correct that the RMS value of the calibration signal is different with AC coupling vs. DC coupling.  The scope's calculation isn't stellar accuracy, but close enough for my purposes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 21, 2012, 08:06:38 pm
Thanks.  I feel like I'm at an AA meeting having to say "I'm an electrical engineer and I don't know how RMS works".  It has always seemed intuitive to me that a square wave with its minimum voltage at zero has the same RMS value as a square wave symmetric about zero.  Now I see that the math says otherwise, and I even found a couple of web sites that incorrectly agreed with me.  I think it has to do with the DC component, it's just hard to suddenly break with decades of wrong thinking.  So it's correct that the RMS value of the calibration signal is different with AC coupling vs. DC coupling.  The scope's calculation isn't stellar accuracy, but close enough for my purposes.

Don't worry - most of us here - especially myself - have posted many things that we either missed, didn't understand in the first place, or still don't fully understand :)  Just remember that most lower cost DSOs perform measurements on the display data (not the raw sampled data) so the more that the event you're trying to measure fills (but doesn't overflow) the display, the more accurate it will be - and if you need super-accurate measurements, break out a DMM or another instrument. The exception to this is the hardware frequency counter (under the 'Measure' menu) which doesn't care if one or more cycles fill the screen.

BTW, one limitation of the measurements is the number of digits - limited to 3 on the display. I've already written software which pulls chosen measurements to the PC screen - while allowing you to set the number of digits of accuracy up to 6 (see attachment in post below). I think all measurements are stored inside the scope as 64-bit double-precision floating-point numbers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 23, 2012, 11:02:59 pm
I put an Marconi signal generator(2019a) on my ds 2072, ( 70 mhz  to the book ) and these were the results,

112 mhz -3 db at 100 milliVolts, the rms on the scoop 70 mV
175 mhz -6 db
232 mhz -9 db
292 mhz -12 db
349 mhz -15 db still triggering and rms still working.
403 mhz -18db
437 mhz -20 db still good trigger and stable
497 mhz game over

Very interesting... thanks for that info!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 01:01:51 pm
Anyone who can verify ??

I can't verify your scientific data (no adequate signal generator), but if you want anecdotal evidence that the 2072, 2102, and 2202 are identical in terms of hardware, I can tell you that I've seen a 'firmware modified' 2072 running and behaving precisely like a 2202.

Merry Xmas!

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 01:14:03 pm
BTW, for those wanting to hack their 2072 (or 2102) to a 2202, I imagine the trick is to figure out how to change the backup copy of the data. Unlike the DS1000, the DS2000 series keep their vital information (such as model number) backed up in another section of memory (with, I assume, a checksum - or something similar). It appears that if the bootloader sees that the normal copy of the information has been corrupted (or changed), it reverts to the backup copy.

EDIT: As clever as Rigol is at making good-quality, inexpensive test equipment - I don't think (luckily for us) that they're very clever at creating hacking preventive measures :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 03:26:53 pm
The scope's calculation isn't stellar accuracy, but close enough for my purposes.

Attached is an image of the scope displaying the RMS of the calibration square wave (with 3 digits of resolution) - with an inset snipped from my PC display showing the actual measurement read from the DSO with SCPI (in scientific notation) and displayed with 6 digits of resolution.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 25, 2012, 03:56:05 pm
Rise time measured with tunnel diode pulse generator for Rigol DS2202. Generator is connected with BNC cable and 50 ohm terminator. Average value is 1.56 ns. It gives bandwith: 350 / 1.56 = 224 MHz (in specs given 200 MHz).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 06:01:26 pm
...and between the 2202 is the 2 nsec timebase.

And the 100MHz BW limit setting - which you would think would be set "ON" all the time on the 2072/2102.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on December 25, 2012, 06:23:04 pm
The rise time of a 200 MHz sine wave just is what it is, it's not telling you anything about the bandwidth of the scope. You can infer the scope's bandwidth by either measuring the rise time of a square pulse, or by measuring the displayed amplitude when you feed a sine wave into the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 25, 2012, 06:27:20 pm


And the 100MHz BW limit setting - which you would think would be set "ON" all the time on the 2072/2102.
[/quote]

If that was the case,
the 2072 has a 20 Mhz limit knob, that gives at 40 Mhz -6 dB and on 80 Mhz -12 dB,
translated to a limit on 100 Mhz, should give at least -6 db on 200 Mhz, but that is
not what i measured, i got -3 dB on 200 Mhz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 06:32:57 pm
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
*****************************Special XMAS Post! (Now Redacted!)*****************************
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

This hasn't been discussed very much in the forum, perhaps because we don't want to give away too much
info to Rigol, but ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? and I have to assume that
Rigol MUST be aware of this 'problem'. And I want to encourage people to buy one of these DS2000s NOW,
because the bigger the user base - the more knowledge (and utility) all of us will have. So... for those of you
on the fence about buying one of these scopes, let me just confirm that there is a bug in the current firmware
version(s) which allows you to ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. Think of it as a
Xmas present to early adopters - those of us who normally suffer through the early hardware and/of firmware
revisions with little to no appreciation  ;)  So go buy the damn scope  :D

I'm not going to write publicly about methods for invoking this bug (and I hope others won't either) - since I
don't want to give Rigol any extra help in squashing it - and since it seems fairly easy to figure it out. But if
you're an owner - and you've been unable to suss it out - I'm happy to pass on my info to you if/once you've
been posting here for a short while - just PM me.

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EDIT: Xmas is over.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 25, 2012, 07:42:39 pm
For comparison here is rise time with Tektronix TDS3032. It has 50 ohm input. So no terminator is needed. Rise time is 1.137 ns and it gives bandwidth 308 MHz (in specs it is 300 MHz). Overshoot is only 2.6% (Rigol had 5.0 %).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 25, 2012, 07:55:49 pm
...and between the 2202 is the 2 nsec timebase.

And the 100MHz BW limit setting - which you would think would be set "ON" all the time on the 2072/2102.

don't give rigol any ideas ;)

I do know FFT function on 2072 works way way beyond 70 Mhz (posted a picture somewhere above)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 25, 2012, 08:16:37 pm
...and between the 2202 is the 2 nsec timebase.

And the 100MHz BW limit setting - which you would think would be set "ON" all the time on the 2072/2102.

don't give rigol any ideas ;)

I do know FFT function on 2072 works way way beyond 70 Mhz (posted a picture somewhere above)

The FFT is just calculated from the samples, and goes uo to 3.5 Ghz. Depends on the selected timebase.

And Rigol knows what  it is shipping, if you are selling test equipment, you can count on it that they will
check the specs..search for the limits.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 08:26:20 pm
I do know FFT function on 2072 works way way beyond 70 Mhz (posted a picture somewhere above)

The FFT is just calculated from the samples, and goes uo to 3.5 Ghz. Depends on the selected timebase.

And Rigol knows what  it is shipping, if you are selling test equipment, you can count on it that they will
check the specs..search for the limits.

I do think that the FFT is perhaps the one area that's a little feeble on the DS2000 series. It doesn't matter to me all that much - since it's relatively feeble on most low cost DSOs - and there are so many other great features (50k wfrm/s capture, segmented memory with histogram analysis, 500uV scale, hi-res mode, measurement history graphs, 2GSa/s sampling, etc) to offset that :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 25, 2012, 08:45:52 pm
These hacks or rumours of such on Rigol must have a fantastic marketing effect. Surely they sell more scopes this way, and get a lot of PR. I bought a DS2022, because so many people in this forum said the brand was good. I would guess it would have been less well known without the earlier 50 to 100 mhz hacks on the older scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 09:07:07 pm
These hacks or rumours of such on Rigol must have a fantastic marketing effect. Surely they sell more scopes this way, and get a lot of PR. I bought a DS2022, because so many people in this forum said the brand was good. I would guess it would have been less well known without the earlier 50 to 100 mhz hacks on the older scope.
It's not just because people say so - look at Dave's video (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/) tearing down one of the DS2000s. Beautifully made inside - and it's the same with their latest series of AWGs and SAs.

And you're right -  it's quite possible that Rigol wouldn't have had the money to put into the R&D for these new series without the sales generated by the public posting of the DS1052E hack  :)

Edit: The place they lag behind the serious companies is in software and after-sales support. But I guess there has to be some trade-off for the low prices.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 25, 2012, 09:22:37 pm
It's not just because people say so - look at Dave's video (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/) tearing down one of the DS2000s. Beautifully made inside - and it's the same with their latest series of AWGs and SAs.

Yes, likely this video is the main reason why I bought my DS2202. I have been satisfied far now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 26, 2012, 01:03:17 pm
I do know FFT function on 2072 works way way beyond 70 Mhz (posted a picture somewhere above)

The FFT is just calculated from the samples, and goes uo to 3.5 Ghz. Depends on the selected timebase.

And Rigol knows what  it is shipping, if you are selling test equipment, you can count on it that they will
check the specs..search for the limits.

I do think that the FFT is perhaps the one area that's a little feeble on the DS2000 series. It doesn't matter to me all that much - since it's relatively feeble on most low cost DSOs - and there are so many other great features (50k wfrm/s capture, segmented memory with histogram analysis, 500uV scale, hi-res mode, measurement history graphs, 2GSa/s sampling, etc) to offset that :)


FFT on all these devices with 8 bit samplers are useless anyway...
With 8 bit samplers you have only 48 dB range which is not serious.
You need at least 14 or more for 84 dB or more to see any detail.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 26, 2012, 02:04:18 pm
I have a question about 8 vs 12 bit. I bought ds2022 thinking it was 12 bit, because many sites say this. Now, I am confused. Is it only 8 bit, but has some sort of averaging that supposedly makes it more accurate by considering many 8 bit samples?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 02:13:36 pm
I have a question about 8 vs 12 bit. I bought ds2022 thinking it was 12 bit, because many sites say this. Now, I am confused. Is it only 8 bit, but has some sort of averaging that supposedly makes it more accurate by considering many 8 bit samples?
Yes, it's 8-bit - and HiRes mode is averaging - but a different kind than the standard type used on all DSOs as an Acquire type. There's a good explanation of it in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/rigol-ds2072-review/msg138785/#msg138785) (and throughout that thread).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 07:42:44 pm
I've been working on a new version of my Rigol software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/) for the last couple of days, and I seem to have found the first bug in the DS2000 that is, IMO, rather a serious one:

I don't seem to be able to read the contents of the DSO memory reliably when the scope is in the STOP state - in other words, I can't get the full sample depth out of the scope (getting just the displayed data is not a problem) - which is a big deal if anyone is planning to do any post-processing with 3rd party software, including MATLAB or LabVIEW (one of the big selling points of the Rigol scope over it's competitors).

Here is the procedure to use copied from the Rigol DS2000 programming guide:

Procedures of the internal memory waveform data reading:
S1. :STOP
The internal memory waveform data can only be read in STOP state
S2. :WAV:SOURce CHAN1
Set the channel source to be read
S3. :WAV:MODE RAW
Set the waveform mode to RAW
S4. :WAV:RESet
Reset the waveform reading
S5. :WAV:BEGin
Start the waveform reading
S6. :WAV:STATus?
1) IDLE
:WAV:DATA?
:WAV: END
2) READ
:WAV:DATA?
Repeat S6

This order of commands does NOT work correctly with the DS2000 - it doesn't return or read the correct number of samples when run as a loop if the memory depth is set to anything higher than 14k.  In fact, you can test that it doesn't work correctly by just using Rigol's own software Ultra Sigma:
Just set the memory depth to >= 140k; STOP the scope; start Ultra Sigma; type in the listed SCPI commands one by one; and you will see it fail.

Perhaps the correct method has changed since the programming guide was published by Rigol - I've passed this info along to my dealer to pass to Rigol. We'll see what they have to say about it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 08:06:32 pm
While thinking about this apparent bug, it dawned on me that perhaps this is why Rigol has not released either an IVI driver - or any application software - for the DS2000 series yet. I'd love to know if this is something the DS4000 series has a problem with - or if it's confined to the 2000s. Any owners of a 4000 want to test it (or already know)?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 26, 2012, 09:15:18 pm
I have a question about 8 vs 12 bit. I bought ds2022 thinking it was 12 bit, because many sites say this. Now, I am confused. Is it only 8 bit, but has some sort of averaging that supposedly makes it more accurate by considering many 8 bit samples?

I think there are some DSP tricks (i.e. I don't understand the math ;) ) during down sampling that can increase the effective bit depth of the ADC.  the sampling rate has to be set to lower than 2 GSa/s in order to get the extra bits of resolution.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 10:26:43 pm
I've just posted the latest version of RUU (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575), the software I'm working on for UltraVision DSOs which allows fast grabbing, viewing, and saving of captured frames, waveform memory, or the DSO display - as either WFM, CSV, BMP, PNG, JPG, TIF, GIF, or animated GIF files.

As of this version, you can:

1) Fully manipulate Recording and Playing back of frames on the DSO.
2) Save frames as numbered image files, numbered CSV files, or animated GIF.
3) Save CH1/CH2 waveform data as CSV file (suspected firmware bug currently limits memory size to display memory = 1400 points).
4) Save DSO display as any of the supported bitmap image formats.

There are still two features not fully implemented, so they're currently disabled when running:

1) The saving of waveform data/frames as WFM files. As mentioned above, there seems to be a bug in the firmware preventing the reading of the entire sample memory. I'm waiting to hear what Rigol has to say about it - in the meantime, I will implement writing WFM files from just display memory (1400 points) in the next day or two.

2) The real-time PC display of the DSO display - an 'SVGA' mode. Once 'SVGA' is operational, the software can be run on an LCD monitor at 800x600 and maximized - for a psuedo-VGA output.

A nice engine for writing the 2D oscilloscope display data needs to be written. Does anyone either have some code already written (preferably using DirectX 2D or OpenGL under .NET) or want to contribute? I can do it but I'd rather not reinvent a wheel.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 10:44:07 pm
BTW, Rigol has radically changed their WFM format on the DS2000 series (and I assume the whole UltraVision line) which means older WFM viewers such as this nice one (http://meteleskublesku.cz/wfm_view/) (and routines written in MATLAB or LabVIEW) won't work with the new files. And as of now, there is ZERO documentation around for the new format.  So I've decided to write my software to use the older format - as opposed to the new one which the scope will output.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 27, 2012, 03:56:41 pm
I have a question about 8 vs 12 bit. I bought ds2022 thinking it was 12 bit, because many sites say this. Now, I am confused. Is it only 8 bit, but has some sort of averaging that supposedly makes it more accurate by considering many 8 bit samples?

I think there are some DSP tricks (i.e. I don't understand the math ;) ) during down sampling that can increase the effective bit depth of the ADC.  the sampling rate has to be set to lower than 2 GSa/s in order to get the extra bits of resolution.

Yes , its all about statistics, here is a example how you can get more digits,
if a measure 6 times with 1 digit, 5 , 5, 6, 5, 6, 5, then the average is 5.33
so sudenly i have three digits...!, with a kind of uncertainy.

There are a lot of statistics ways you can use to get more resolution, you just need
the right number of samples, and the uncertainy you will accept.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 04:05:38 pm
note, The probes which come with the scoop are useless above 30 Mhz.

BTW, Wim, did you check the bandwidth of the probes (which Rigol rates at 350MHz) at 10x? I'm curious if they're rated 1x/35MHz - 10x/350MHz (or something like that) and I don't have any information about them anymore (if info even came with them - I don't remember) - and I don't have adequate gear here to do any serious testing .
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 04:26:27 pm
Someone (a ZeroPoster) sent me a PM about my Special XMAS Post (Now Redacted) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg174687/#msg174687) - asking for a method to invoke the Special Xmas bug. Please understand - under normal circumstances it's completely accepted and encouraged to ask for help from other members here without ever having contributed yourself. Unfortunately, this is not a normal circumstance.

Rigol is currently working on (and now at least 1 and 1/2 months behind schedule on) the latest firmware for the DS2000 series. One would assume that they would like to plug any exploits which give 'free stuff' to people before they release the next version. As you might understand, now is NOT a good time to be a Guest/ZeroPoster/Newbie member asking regular members for this kind of info. As I mentioned in the XMAS post, it's not rocket science, but if you can't figure it out yourself then get on the thread and start contributing. Either you'll start to be known here and someone will share - or Rigol will finally release the next damn version and render it moot.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2012, 04:35:30 pm
I'm curious if they're rated 1x/35MHz - 10x/350MHz (or something like that)

Bandwidths are 1X/8MHz and 10X/350MHz. Rise times are 1X/40ns and 10X/900ps.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 04:39:05 pm
Bandwidths are 1X/8MHz and 10X/350MHz. Rise times are 1X/40ns and 10X/900ps.

@EV: are these the written specifications - or tested by you?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2012, 05:54:29 pm
Bandwidths are 1X/8MHz and 10X/350MHz. Rise times are 1X/40ns and 10X/900ps.

@EV: are these the written specifications - or tested by you?

They are from specs. I made some tests with Rigol DG4162 generator:
Sweep is from 1Hz to 160 MHz (there is no bigger value)  with sweep time 1.4 sec.

Picture 1: 50 ohm output from generator connected with BNC cable and 50 ohm terminator to DS2202.

Picture 2: BNC cable with 50 ohm terminator connected to 10X probe

Picture 3: High resistance output from generator connected to 10X probe

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 06:35:42 pm
They are from specs. I made some tests with Rigol DG4162 generator:
Sweep is from 1Hz to 160 MHz (there is no bigger value)  with sweep time 1.4 sec.

Very nice... and interesting! Thanks for doing that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 06:44:05 pm
Strange... I was just playing around with Recording frames of an AM waveform while in Delayed Sweep mode (Zoom) - and I got this for the first ~120 frames before it changed to the correct data. The animated GIF is +/- 10 frames from the changeover.

EDIT: Of course, I'm unable to replicate the glitch  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 27, 2012, 06:52:02 pm
Got my ds2202 just now. Looks great. I can't get marmad's way of getting system info with f7 keys etc, but in system details it says:

Serial: ds2a143401531
Sw ver: 00.00.01.00.02
Hw ver: 1.1.0.0
Spu: 03.01.02
Wpu:00.06.00
Ccu: 12.29.00
Mcu: 00.05

Bought in Europe from tekequip.com. Just in case this is useful to anybody...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 07:05:15 pm
Sw ver: 00.00.01.00.02
I suggest an upgrade to 01.00.05 - but upgrade during bootup - NOT FROM GUI (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg167752/#msg167752) or you will lose the trial options. Also, don't forget: NO SELF-CALIBRATION for the moment - or you will also lose the trial options.

EDIT: Because of a memory reading bug discovered in FW 01.00.05 (but not in 01.00.02), I would now suggest waiting awhile before upgrading.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2012, 09:11:17 pm
I made the same test as with DS2202  for comparison also with Tektronix TDS3032. Sweep time is 0.1 sec and sweep is from 1MHz to 160MHz. Here is picture from Tektronix and the earlier picture from DS2202:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 27, 2012, 09:28:26 pm
@ EV,

Clearly some SWR on the Rigol. not completly 50 ohm
as on the Tek
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2012, 10:51:05 pm
@ EV,

Clearly some SWR on the Rigol. not completly 50 ohm
as on the Tek

Yes, propably this termination with 50 ohm terminator using BNC T-adaptor is not very good. Tektronix has a real 50 ohm input impedance and needs no terminator.  It looks much better.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 28, 2012, 09:25:55 am
I bought some Tektronix 011-0049-01 feed Thru 50 Ohm Terminators from eBay. When I get them, I test again this sweep with DS2202.

Edit: Rigol seem to have also these feed thru 50 ohm terminators.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 12:36:51 pm
I bought some Tektronix 011-0049-01 feed Thru 50 Ohm Terminators from eBay. When I get them, I test again this sweep with DS2202.

Edit: Rigol seem to have also these feed thru 50 ohm terminators.

But i can not find any specifications of these from Rigol
You need at least calibrated or certified ones.

I have a several of these things, with and without certification.
and it is not easy to avoid any mismatches.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 01:15:14 pm
Hallo,

Made two pictures, of FFT screen dump, with 300 Mhz on a Rigol 2072 ( 70 Mhz)

The first picture, with High resolution on, and the second on normal...
se the difference, two peaks suddenly disappears...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 01:48:00 pm
Another two FFT pictures, with -70dBm signal at 100 Mhz and
the other with -70 dBm at 200 Mhz. scale is 5 dB.

So the noise floor here is about -95 Bm. The signal
is 70 uV and the scale is 500 uV /div

With 8 bit resolution, one single level is 16 uV on this scale.
so the 70 uV input only 4 or 5 levels of the 256 are used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 28, 2012, 01:52:02 pm
Hallo,

Made two pictures, of FFT screen dump, with 300 Mhz on a Rigol 2072 ( 70 Mhz)

The first picture, with High resolution on, and the second on normal...
se the difference, two peaks suddenly disappears...

2 peaks more in normal mode? Also RMS is much bigger there. I am not familiar with FFT.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 01:56:09 pm
Hallo,

Made two pictures, of FFT screen dump, with 300 Mhz on a Rigol 2072 ( 70 Mhz)

The first picture, with High resolution on, and the second on normal...
se the difference, two peaks suddenly disappears...

2 peaks more in normal mode? Also RMS is much bigger there. I am not familiar with FFT.

In high resolution , one should expect more detail then in normal....
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 28, 2012, 02:00:30 pm
In high resolution , one should expect more detail then in normal....

Yes I thought so also. Does that bigger RMS in normal mode mean something?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 02:08:53 pm
In high resolution , one should expect more detail then in normal....

Yes I thought so also. Does that bigger RMS in normal mode mean something?

The RMS is not reliable, to the book you may not use it in this ranges,
there are to less bits left , you have 8 bits for 8 divisions, 256 levels.
Thats 32 levels per division resolution for the RMS, it has to deal with statistics
to get more out of it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 02:33:03 pm
Here a FFT picture of the FM radio band at 88-108 Mhz,
just connected a VHF antenna on the input of the Rigol 2072.

You can clearly see the signals from 88 -108 Mhz in the air.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 28, 2012, 02:50:58 pm

You can clearly see the signals from 88 -108 Mhz in the air.

now we need to figure out how to hear them...  :) If there is a way to transfer samples to the PC in real time they can be demodulated and played back in something like GnuRadio. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 28, 2012, 10:58:09 pm
I pressed on and immediately pressed and released HELP (had to try several times).

I now have SW version 00.00.01 (and that's it... no .05) Does it mean it worked?

Is the self-calibration bug still in the v5 firmware? I assume yes, since you're warning me.

Edit: I managed to get the secret handshake now. Stupidly didn't realize I should go to system info afterwards. Thought it'd be a popup, but then I reread the forum, which I should have done anyway. So, it's not confirmed upgraded to 00.00.01.00.05.

Thanks.

Sw ver: 00.00.01.00.02
I suggest an upgrade to 01.00.05 - but upgrade during bootup - NOT FROM GUI (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg167752/#msg167752) or you will lose the trial options. Also, don't forget: NO SELF-CALIBRATION for the moment - or you will also lose the trial options.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 28, 2012, 11:41:47 pm
Edit: I managed to get the secret handshake now. Stupidly didn't realize I should go to system info afterwards. Thought it'd be a popup, but then I reread the forum, which I should have done anyway. So, it's not confirmed upgraded to 00.00.01.00.05.

Great - enjoy!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 01:22:10 am
I've had a couple of people PM me asking for a copy of the 01.00.05 firmware - but my DS2072 came with it installed, so I don't have one. Would someone who does be willing to post it - either here or in the software thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/)?  If someone has it, but is not comfortable publicly posting it - shoot me an email with it, and I'll be happy to do it. Just because Rigol is tight-fisted with the firmware, doesn't mean we have to be  ;) And in fact, the more it spreads around, the better for everyone.  Perhaps it even pushes Rigol to speed up newer versions  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 06:29:33 am
Is it Valid to test at 160MHz Freg. when the DS2000 Scope is set at 100mS/div and ONLY 20Msa/s ??
Are you just showing aliasing?

Why it is not valid? What is aliasing (it is not in my dictionary)? I am testing the original probe and the way it is connected to scope. Tektronix scope is used for comparison because it has real 50 ohm input, but Rigol does not (it needs 50 ohm terminator).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 29, 2012, 07:14:40 am
Why it is not valid? What is aliasing (it is not in my dictionary)?

Here is a good video on aliasing
Understanding the concepts of aliasing and how to detect and fix it using a Tektronix oscilloscope (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3svU5VJ8Gk#ws)

I think it is better to sweep 120-160 Mhz with DSO set for 2.0GSa/s  ie  500us/div   sweep time .5ms
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 08:19:23 am
I think this aliasing does not influence to the shape of the curve and it can be corrected by long persistence time. Here are pictures with minimum and infinite persistence time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 29, 2012, 09:49:14 am
RIGOL 2000 Service Menu

I did not found any info on this yes on the forum, maybe somewhere else..?

But if you do this 4 button sequence, F7-F6-F7-Utility, under the trigger menu,
you get also the service menu, where you can do screen test, keyboard test,
and gaintest, and some other things i dont dare to touch.

Is there anybody , who already did some experience with this menu..??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on December 29, 2012, 10:00:20 am
Why it is not valid? What is aliasing (it is not in my dictionary)?


With Owon (and many many other oscilloscopes including also some Rigol lowest end models)I have made lot lot of lab tests.)

(here borrowed for example picture from Owon thread page 57 where is also more).

For this measurement can use slow speeds for BW tests. It is quite normal method. This may avoid also some possible other fast sweep problems)

There is very slow samplerate and still no need think aliasing (in this case) but wait a moment...

(aliasing is not known?? and using digital oscilloscope... perhaps this is good to upgrade asap for avoid mistakes in measurements... but no problem, it is easy to learn. it is one very very basic fundamental what need know and know what all it is and what kind of affect it have... in different waveforms in normal oscilloscope trace and FFT. )

You see owon image I have used very slow speed (10s/div) and tested with sweep from 1MHz to 250MHz and "samplerate" is 50 samples per second (becouse in this case only 10k sampling buffer selected)  This 50 samples/s  mean that ALL analog frequency components what ADC input can see and what are over 25Hz produce exactly sure aliasing (if you see it or not but it is there). This is basic fundamental what can not break!

But example in Owon behind this 50sample/second ADC circuit works still (in this case 1GSa/s) full speed.  For aliasing this do not matter and for alising it is 50 sample per second.

(ADC works full speed and systenm use only every 20000000's sample.)

How to do?

Turn sampling (acquire) mode to "peak" (it is used in this Owon test)

Now system select (inside this 1/50s window highest samples  (different scopes use different methods perhaps (of course this have also bad effect becouse now this sample time is where ever inside this "window" but in this case it do not mean anything) and  what happend... now you do not need put one penny for thinkin aliasing (in this case).

Of course if do some accurate tests also generator starting level need adjust with this frequency what want keep as reference level. Also it is good to use signal generator what have accurate flatness over used frequency band.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 10:54:05 am
Turn sampling (acquire) mode to "peak" (it is used in this Owon test)

Here is a new picture "peak detect" turned on. There is also under "acquire" "anti-aliasing" button which is now on. Persistence time is at minimum. There is no change on the curve compared to the earlier curves.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 11:06:36 am
But if you do this 4 button sequence, F7-F6-F7-Utility, under the trigger menu,
you get also the service menu, where you can do screen test, keyboard test,
and gaintest, and some other things i dont dare to touch.

Is there anybody , who already did some experience with this menu..??

I've played around with the keyboard test - and looked at the other options. But I haven't screwed too much with it because I didn't want to risk messing up my factory calibration.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on December 29, 2012, 11:10:50 am

Here is a new picture "peak detect" turned on.

Now there on the forum no one can come and suspect if you show some aliasing... ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 11:49:33 am
Well, I've found either another bug with the scope - or it's related to the previous bug of not being able to read deep sample lengths from scope.

Could someone else please try this and see what results you get?

EDIT: As mentioned in a later post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175767/#msg175767), I've discovered that the bug/problem is with loading waveforms into DSO memory.

Set sample length to 14MPts (you can also try 56MPts - but it will take longer to save the file). Sample any waveform (EDIT: I used noise - but I don't think it matters - see also post below) - STOP, enter Zoom mode, go to the end of the waveform and save the image:

BEFORE SAVING
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35714)

Then save the file to WFM format on a USB stick. Then make sure you clear the memory (capture a different type of waveform or AUTO no input), then load the saved WFM file back into memory. Again Zoom in and go to the end of the waveform and save the image:

AFTER LOADING
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35716;image)

EDIT: On my DSO, the waveform is not being recalled correctly from the file.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andrewfernie on December 29, 2012, 11:57:07 am
I've had a couple of people PM me asking for a copy of the 01.00.05 firmware - but my DS2072 came with it installed, so I don't have one. Would someone who does be willing to post it - either here or in the software thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/)? 
Someone has posted it in the software thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 12:10:55 pm
As it turns out, it doesn't matter what kind of waveform you save. Here is another example - showing the end of a 14MPt capture, save, and load of a sine wave:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35720;image)

EDIT: The place where the file/memory gets corrupted:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35722;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 12:50:16 pm
I don't know about this error, but sometimes when I have stored pictures (as bmp and maybe others), in stored picture has not been any waveform only pure graticule and frames. When stored second time also waveform is there.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 12:55:10 pm
I don't know about this error, but sometimes when I have stored pictures (as bmp and maybe others), in stored picture has not been any waveform only pure graticule and frames. When stored second time also waveform is there.

This is something different - as noted below. But perhaps you can test this on your DSO?

Further research on this bug:

I tried again with a sine wave - and this time it worked correctly. So I compared the 'good' and 'bad' sine wave WFM files, and they are identical. This means two things:

This bug/problem is intermittent - which is the worst kind of bug/problem.
This bug/problem is in the loading of the DSO memory - not the saving.

So far, with testing, it failed to correctly load a stored 14MPt waveform into memory [4 of 5 times]. (Edited - and growing).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 01:03:16 pm
Here is the sine wave file I showed in the previous post reloaded again into the DSO memory. It again has corruption at the end - but different than the first time of loading it:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35724;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 02:28:23 pm
This is something different - as noted below. But perhaps you can test this on your DSO?

Further research on this bug:

I tried again with a sine wave - and this time it worked correctly. So I compared the 'good' and 'bad' sine wave WFM files, and they are identical. This means two things:

This bug/problem is intermittent - which is the worst kind of bug/problem.
This bug/problem is in the loading of the DSO memory - not the saving.

So far, with testing, it failed to correctly load a stored 14MPt waveform into memory [4 of 5 times]. (Edited - and growing).

I could not repeat this bug, I did it only once. Look at the picture. Have you tried an other USB-stick?

Edit: I try again with 20 MHz sine wave.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 03:04:23 pm
Now I got it. It was also at the end of 1.4Mpts file, but I did not take picture from it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 04:22:07 pm
Help question,

when i do a record, with the record button, i can play around
with the info, but if i want to save it to a file as wfm, it blanks
out. It only allow me to make a new directory..?

i press storage, select waveforms, and then press save,
in the next menu, i get only new folder and delete.?

I can only save waveforms in realtime mode, when i then
press storage, and do the same then i can save it to the usb stick

what do i wrong.?
It might help if you read the previous messages in the thread you're posting in  ;)  Seriously though, I pointed this out before in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160404/#msg160404) - and IMO it's the biggest failure (I don't mean bugs) of the current firmware: it would be a much more powerful feature if you could save and reload frames for comparison later - since you can do everything to saved frames (measurement, bus decode, zoom, math, etc) that you can do to single waveforms. Rigol have been notified that there are owners who would like this capability.

That was the main reason I started writing my software = so that you could save all of the data from the frames (but, of course, I can't force the Rigol to reload it). As of now, my software can save frames as images, animated GIFs, CSVs (and WFM is coming soon) - but because of another serious bug I posted about a couple of days ago (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg174895/#msg174895) (which no one else has yet confirmed), you can only read display memory from the scope - not the entire sample length - so the CSV and WFM files are currently limited to 1.4kPts each.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 04:27:10 pm
Now I got it. It was also at the end of 1.4Mpts file, but I did not take picture from it.
Thanks for confirming that EV! I was starting to worry I might be having memory problems with my DSO. I will pass it along to drieg.

Now I'm just wondering if it's related to this other bug bug I posted about (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg174895/#msg174895), or something different entirely.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 29, 2012, 04:36:57 pm
@ Marmad, thanks for your info.., sorry, but i read everything on these posts...
but what happens, you read all kinds of things, but i had not tried all these items
so the most items you read here does not always mean anything to the reader...unitl..
you are a a point were you try things you did not had any clue before...

So i did not study all the software yet, i am not so far yet..
I am using here a GPIB bus fot the HP stuff with a Prologix convertor to the PC.
So i have to find a way to get the Rigol under control.

I did a search on the Firmware 1.005.., find that is has a header for a 2202
and was written for two fans inside, with temperature control ..
And there is a battery low indication, was there ever a battery in these Rigols..?
Or is this firmware written for more brands then only Rigol..?
The firmware is not encrypted. You can upgrade with former version, or the same.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 05:04:39 pm
@ Marmad, thanks for your info.., sorry, but i read everything on these posts...
but what happens, you read all kinds of things, but i had not tried all these items
so the most items you read here does not always mean anything to the reader...unitl..
you are a a point were you try things you did not had any clue before...

No problem Wim - I was kidding. These threads get so long it's almost impossible to read the whole thing - and I know what you mean about the info not having significance unless you've used the feature, etc.

Quote
So i did not study all the software yet, i am not so far yet. I am using here a GPIB bus fot the HP stuff with a Prologix convertor to the PC. So i have to find a way to get the Rigol under control.

It's easier to connect now - with USB or LAN. I recommend downloading Rigol's Ultra Sigma software and experimenting with sending SCPI commands to the DSO . It's very easy (ASCII based messages) and you can test many things (such as the memory read bug I described).

Quote
I did a search on the Firmware 1.005.., find that is has a header for a 2202
and was written for two fans inside, with temperature control ..
The firmware is not encrypted. You can upgrade with former version, or the same.

Interesting. I hope it stays this way - and Rigol concentrates their efforts on getting rid of the bugs - instead of on hack-prevention.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 05:53:02 pm
so you have not to enter option keys by hand..., thats gives a try for a brute force..
There are 28 items in the key, and 32 letters/numbers that gives... too many

Yes, way too many - I also thought of that the first day with the scope ;D  But the only way to reverse engineer a key-generator is to 'watch' what math the firmware performs on the license code + serial number.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 05:55:26 pm
@Teneyes - I posted a small piece of test software for you in the other thread - to check if your 01.00.02 software uses the "Open" command (as mine does) - or the "Keep" command (as noted in the outdated programming guide). Please let me know which one works for you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on December 29, 2012, 07:29:47 pm
I put an Marconi signal generator(2019a) on my ds 2072, ( 70 mhz  to the book ) and these were the results,

112 mhz -3 db at 100 milliVolts, the rms on the scoop 70 mV
175 mhz -6 db
232 mhz -9 db
292 mhz -12 db
349 mhz -15 db still triggering and rms still working.
403 mhz -18db
437 mhz -20 db still good trigger and stable
497 mhz game over

I ran this same test using my HP 8660D signal generator into my new DS2072.   My results were within 1dB for the most part.  I am very impressed with the scope so far.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 10:01:33 pm
I posted some utility software at the other thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175932/#msg175932) to test if your Rigol DS2000 series scope can have it's sample memory read correctly by the PC. Mine is failing this test, as reported earlier here as a serious bug/problem.

Could someone please give it a try and let me know what happens?

Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 29, 2012, 10:07:17 pm
RIGOL 2000 Service Menu

I did not found any info on this yes on the forum, maybe somewhere else..?

But if you do this 4 button sequence, F7-F6-F7-Utility, under the trigger menu,
you get also the service menu, where you can do screen test, keyboard test,
and gaintest, and some other things i dont dare to touch.

Is there anybody , who already did some experience with this menu..??

Thanks for this --- it's something I didn't notice previously.  I just had a look on my DS2072 and the new menu is called "PROJECT" --- just thought I'd mention it because I was looking for "SERVICE" option :) 

I did not play with anything on this menu yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 30, 2012, 12:21:15 am
Well, I've found either another bug with the scope - or it's related to the previous bug of not being able to read deep sample lengths from scope.

Could someone else please try this and see what results you get?
< snip >
Then save the file to WFM format on a USB stick. Then make sure you clear the memory (capture a different type of waveform or AUTO no input), then load the saved WFM file back into memory. Again Zoom in and go to the end of the waveform and save the image:

I tried to confirm this also, but I am unable to save Waveforms or CSV from the scope.  Specifically what happens is that when I set "Storage" to "Waveforms" or "CSV" and then select "Save" button, the "New File" option is grayed out (unselectable).  If I go back and set "Storage" to any other option (Traces, Setups, or Picture), I am able to select "New File" and saving proceeds.

Is there something I'm missing about not being able to save Waveforms or CSV?

I excited from dual time-base mode and that didn't help.  I then pressed "Stop Record" button to exit Record mode (it is already STOPped...but square STOP button is RED color), and then the "New File" menu button becomes active when "Waveforms" is selected for the "Storage" option...however after exiting Record mode, the waveform is lost :(

So, I'm not sure the correct procedure to save the current waveform in memory to the USB drive.

Any pointers what I am doing wrong?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 30, 2012, 12:28:23 am
Well, I've found either another bug with the scope - or it's related to the previous bug of not being able to read deep sample lengths from scope.

Could someone else please try this and see what results you get?
< snip >
Then save the file to WFM format on a USB stick. Then make sure you clear the memory (capture a different type of waveform or AUTO no input), then load the saved WFM file back into memory. Again Zoom in and go to the end of the waveform and save the image:

I tried to confirm this also, but I am unable to save Waveforms or CSV from the scope.  Specifically what happens is that when I set "Storage" to "Waveforms" or "CSV" and then select "Save" button, the "New File" option is grayed out (unselectable).  If I go back and set "Storage" to any other option (Traces, Setups, or Picture), I am able to select "New File" and saving proceeds.

Is there something I'm missing about not being able to save Waveforms or CSV?

I excited from dual time-base mode and that didn't help.  I then pressed "Stop Record" button to exit Record mode (it is already STOPped...but square STOP button is RED color), and then the "New File" menu button becomes active when "Waveforms" is selected for the "Storage" option...however after exiting Record mode, the waveform is lost :(

So, I'm not sure the correct procedure to save the current waveform in memory to the USB drive.

Any pointers what I am doing wrong?

Now I realize this is the same issue as posted by Wim13:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175819/#msg175819 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175819/#msg175819)

This thread has grown a lot in the last couple of days --- difficult keeping up!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2012, 12:41:41 am
This thread has grown a lot in the last couple of days --- difficult keeping up!

True  :)  But the bug I found when loading waveforms into memory has nothing to do with the Record mode - so that limitation doesn't matter.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 30, 2012, 05:25:45 am
Well, I've found either another bug with the scope - or it's related to the previous bug of not being able to read deep sample lengths from scope.

Could someone else please try this and see what results you get?

This bug has already been confirmed by EV, but here I also post my result of this test.  In my case, each time I load the waveform from USB stick, the error appears to be the same.

See my "before" (waveform as originally recorded, before saving to USB drive) and "after" (after loading from USB drive) images attached.

Interesting that the error in recalled waveform always appears at the very end.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 30, 2012, 06:40:32 am
That was the main reason I started writing my software = so that you could save all of the data from the frames (but, of course, I can't force the Rigol to reload it). As of now, my software can save frames as images, animated GIFs, CSVs (and WFM is coming soon) - but because of another serious bug I posted about a couple of days ago (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg174895/#msg174895) (which no one else has yet confirmed), you can only read display memory from the scope - not the entire sample length - so the CSV and WFM files are currently limited to 1.4kPts each.

Okay, I gave it a shot and I can confirm this doesn't work correctly.  I set the memory depth to 5.60k points (:ACQuire:MDEPth? returns 5600) and then acquire some data and then run each of the SCPI commands from Ultra Sigma.

When I send the :WAV:STATus? it returns IDLE, 1400 to say the read operation is idle and there are 1.4k points to read.  When running the next command (:WAV:DATA?) it returns #9000000000 which seems bogus (last 4 zeros indicate no data).  On a fifth execution of this command, it returned #9000001400xxxx.... which indicates it is sending 1400 points, and the xxxx's are the data.  Then I run :WAV:STATus? again and it indicates IDLE, 1400 so I try and read another 1.4k points with :WAV:DATA? but system returns #9000000000 again...and after a few attempts it succeeds and sends #90000014007xxxxx again.  So, even on second, third or forth attempts to read data, when it eventually does send data, it seems to be sending the exact same first segment of data as was returned from the beginning, rather than the next 1400 points of data. 

So, does not seem to be working correctly, even for small memory depth (5.6k points) when trying to read 1400 points at a time.


EXTRA INFO: I should add that even when doing the step :WAV:MODE RAW to set the waveform to RAW mode, :WAVeform:POINts? still returns 1400, which is the normal maximum number of points to read.  That is, the number of points to read doesn't automatically update to the maximum possible allowed in RAW mode.  Thus, in a second test, I subsequently send :WAVeform:POINts 5600 to set the number of read points to 5600, and WAV:STATus? now returns IDLE, 5600.  Then, after a bunch of failed :WAV:DATA? it eventually succeed and returns all 5600 data points.  So, this seemed to work fine (despite initial fails to read data).

I then did another test, with memory depth 280k points. :WAV:STATus? returns IDLE, 280000.  And, on second attempt at read, :WAV:DATA? succeeds and this time returns 126948 data points, and not the full 280k points asked for.


I then tried the MATLAB programming example in the DS2000 series programming guide, and that fails also.  The request for data ([data,len]= fread( ds2000, 2048 );) times out before the operation completes.  This happens even when the input buffer size is 1400 points.

This is possibly the worst bug so far --- no ability to read out the complete memory to PC for further analysis.  Really hoping this bug can be fixed!

Has this one been forwarded to our friend drieg?


Edit note: Since my original post, I read a bit more about setting the number of waveform points to read, and so I subsequently performed additional tests and included results above.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 30, 2012, 09:42:33 am
I noticed that the "Anti-Aliasing" does not work if I close the scope and turn on the power again even if "Anti-Aliasing" is on. If I put it off and on again, it works again.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2012, 02:34:59 pm
I've posted a revamped version of the Rigol Read Memory test in the software thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175932/#msg175932). It allows you to check if your scope has the bug which prevents correct reading of the sample memory.

There is definitely a bug in the IDLE -> READ response sequence - which is the final response for the final packet when reading memory. You can see how this works by setting your memory depth to 14MPts, then running my software and clicking "Rigol Full Sample Memory Read - MAX/RAW mode". The PC will read the entire memory - but fail on the final packet.  Unfortunately, for small memory depths (< 14MPts in non-ASCII mode), there is only one packet - so read attempts at 14kB and 140kB and 1.4MB fail using Rigol's technique. Using my "Wait Until Bytes Read >= Sample Memory Size" button will usually force my DSO into finally sending the final packet at smaller memory depths (<= 140k) - but it's a wonky workaround.

This bug appears to be confined to v.00.01.00.05 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg176253/#msg176253). Once I hear Rigol's response to the problem, I will consider downgrading to v.00.01.00.02
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2012, 07:59:17 pm
I noticed that the "Anti-Aliasing" does not work if I close the scope and turn on the power again even if "Anti-Aliasing" is on. If I put it off and on again, it works again.

Thanks, EV. Confirmed this bug on my scope too. I'll add it to the bug list on Page 1 - which I'm updating now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JOHNJB on December 30, 2012, 11:31:44 pm
Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?

I have used only RS-232 decoder and it works well.
[/quote]

In ASCII mode, if its not a bug it looks like it:
ASCII-ANSI Standard, it comprise characters and controls,
it only decodes characters.
In the attached examples, my old Yokogawa decodes:
decode-1: (CR),(LF)
decode-2: (ENQ),F,F,9,1,(CR)
me and older technicians prefer this mode not "*"

John JB

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 01:33:54 am
Does anyone have (or has anyone seen) any copy of the RIGOL Programming Guide - DS2000 Series Digital Oscilloscope besides this one (dated July 2012) (http://sdpha2.ucsd.edu/Lab_Equip_Manuals/Rigol_DS2000_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)?

It's a little odd that the only copy I can find online (I see no copy at any of the Rigol websites) is clearly written for FW 01.00.02 (evidenced by the outdated "Keep" command - instead of "Open" - for Record Open).

Given this latest discovery of the memory read problem with FW 01.00.05, it seems to me there are two possible conclusions:

1) Rigol is aware of this bad problem with FW 01.00.05 - and so is downplaying the programming aspect of the scope (Programming Guide offline, no IVI driver, etc) until they can rectify the problem.

Or the other, more hopeful, alternative:

2) Because the Programming Guide is outdated and hasn't been revised, the command sequence for reading memory in FW 01.00.05 has changed slightly - and the technique as laid out for FW 01.00.02 doesn't work anymore. Then all we need to do is hear from Rigol what the new method is.

Waiting....  ::)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 31, 2012, 01:56:57 am
Does anyone have (or has anyone seen) any copy of the RIGOL Programming Guide - DS2000 Series Digital Oscilloscope besides ...

It's a little odd that the only copy I can find online (I see no copy at any of the Rigol websites) is clearly written for FW 01.00.02 (evidenced by the outdated "Keep" command - instead of "Open" - for Record Open).

Then all we need to do is hear from Rigol what the new method is.

Waiting....  ::)

I could not find the DS2000 Series Programming Guide on the Rigol NA website, however it is currently available on the Rigol website (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547 (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547)).

When I went looking for documents, I found the Rigol website better than Rigol NA website (several documents on the latter site are older versions than what is available from the former website).

I think we need updated firmware, and then an updated Programming Guide (and IVI driver --- after all, our DS2000 has "LXI Class C" stamped on the back, so it should come with IVI driver by default!).  We don't know what will happen in the next firmware: SCPI commands might revert to 01.00.02 (i.e. "Keep" instead of "Open"), or they might stay as per 01.00.05 and incorporate bug fixes, or they might change to something new!  I'm hoping it's just a matter of bug fixes, but its looking like they have a whole lot of issues to resolve.  I hope they speed it up!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 02:02:01 am
I could not find the DS2000 Series Programming Guide on the Rigol NA website, however it is currently available on the Rigol website (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547 (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547)).

Well that's good to know at least. It just seems strange that a Google search only turns up that copy at the .edu site - and many sellers (the big one in the EU is Batronix) don't offer it among the documentation that have available for download.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 11:47:18 am
But not sure of this.., can anyone who has not filled in a new trail option key from Rigol,
confirm that he has also restored the trail options..?, before or after it expired.

I have a new key from Rigol - but I have not used it yet.

BTW, Wim, what FW version are you using? I'd like to find one more person with FW 01.00.02 to verify that the memory reading bug is not present in that version.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to discover if the WFM-loading corruption bug (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175767/#msg175767) is also present in FW 01.00.02.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 31, 2012, 12:51:29 pm
I have software version 1.005, seems that all 2072 have .5 and the 2202 have .2
if a read back the posts

Did a port scan on the Lan interface, only found port 80 for the webinterface
and port 111 with 618 and 619 for Sun rpc. The system seems to use Unix/Linux
They have blocked the telnet, also on 9000 ports
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 31, 2012, 12:53:52 pm
Looking inside the firmware-file, you can see the web responses in clear-text. Would be cool to change some of the text. I wonder if the file is signed to prevent going in and changing characters... it can't be that easy I guess  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 31, 2012, 01:38:05 pm
Looking inside the firmware-file, you can see the web responses in clear-text. Would be cool to change some of the text. I wonder if the file is signed to prevent going in and changing characters... it can't be that easy I guess  :)

On these files there is always a kind of checksum, because if something goes wrong during
transfer or somewere else, the whole sysem will crash. Most checksums are not complicated.
And you have to know where it is stored in the file.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 01:48:22 pm
I have software version 1.005, seems that all 2072 have .5 and the 2202 have .2
if a read back the posts

No, not at all. I believe Teneyes (who is currently on 01.00.02) has a 2072. And many people on the thread (tlu, Sparky, etc) bought 2072s not long ago which came with 01.00.02. In fact, I think that most models sold in NA have 01.00.02 still installed - and it seems many in the EU have 01.00.05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 02:48:24 pm
In ASCII mode, if its not a bug it looks like it:
ASCII-ANSI Standard, it comprise characters and controls,
it only decodes characters.
In the attached examples, my old Yokogawa decodes:
decode-1: (CR),(LF)
decode-2: (ENQ),F,F,9,1,(CR)
me and older technicians prefer this mode not "*"

Thanks for posting this, John. I'm not sure I would call this a 'bug' per se - but it certainly is lazy/sloppy coding at the least. I haven't had much time to really investigate the different decoding options yet (or the extended triggers either) except the small amount of testing I did with the I2C in the video review -  but I'm sure there are many 'bugs' to discover in these areas as well.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 31, 2012, 04:18:52 pm
External trigger and the sampling speed,

External trigger and channel 1 on, ( 2 off) got 1 Gsa/s
External trigger and channel 2 on, ( 1 off) got 2 Gsa/s

And cant get 2 Gsa/s on channel 1 with external trigger,
only on channel 2. Is this normal, or do i somthing wrong.?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 05:03:59 pm
And cant get 2 Gsa/s on channel 1 with external trigger,
only on channel 2. Is this normal, or do i somthing wrong.?

It appears to be a bug that's confined to the menu selection process. It's not a problem to do it with SCPI commands, as shown in the commented copied and pasted exchange below:

===========================================

-> :CHANnel1:DISPlay?                   // Check CHAN1 status
1                                                     // CHAN1 1 is on

-> :CHANnel2:DISPlay?                   // Check CHAN2 status
0                                                     // CHAN2 is off

-> :TRIGger:EDGe:SOURce EXT      // Set trigger source to EXT

-> :TRIGger:EDGe:SOURce?           // Check trigger source
EXT                                                // Trigger source is EXT

-> :ACQuire:SRATe?                      // Check sample rate
2.000000e+09                              // Sample rate is 2G Sa/s

===========================================
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 05:11:41 pm
Also, if you bootup with CH1 and EXT trigger selected - you get 2G Sa/s. So you just have to set it - then turn off and on your DSO. Easy as pie  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 05:48:46 pm
I'm planning to write a DS2000 WFM format <-> DS1000 WFM format converter in awhile (once I collect more info about the DS2000 format) and adding it to the utilities.

Here is a little experimentation in the early days. I've taken a 14MPt WFM DS2000 file of a sine wave and stripped it of it's header. Then I've added a DS1000 header onto it so that I can read it into dexter2048's nice Delphi-based WFM viewer and analyzer (built for the DS1052E). His program can do FFT spectrum analysis with up to 1M samples. Very cool.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35901;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 31, 2012, 07:21:33 pm
Also, if you bootup with CH1 and EXT trigger selected - you get 2G Sa/s.
DS2072 FW  1.00.02
   Yes is BUg and should NOT have to REpower to Get 2GSa/s for External
   I can see switch to 1Ga/s if trigger is Chan 2, as you watch chan 1, but after selector (multifuction knob) goes to EXT. then allow 2GSa/s again.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on December 31, 2012, 10:40:51 pm
BTW, Wim, what FW version are you using? I'd like to find one more person with FW 01.00.02 to verify that the memory reading bug is not present in that version.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to discover if the WFM-loading corruption bug (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175767/#msg175767) is also present in FW 01.00.02.
I can confirm, FW 01.00.02 has also problems reloading saved WFM files.
I reported both issues reported to Rigol...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 10:50:43 pm
There is another new memory-reading related bug (not to be confused with the original Memory Read bug = #9 in our ever-growing list (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659))  :(

This one affects both FW 01.00.02 and 01.00.05: when attempting to read 7MB sample depths out of the scope, the DSO transfers the wrong number of bytes (something 'random' between 6.9 - 7MB).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 02:11:24 am
One thing I wanted to reiterate here which I mentioned to Teneyes over in the software thread - and which, perhaps like I was, some other owners are unaware of because it's counter-intuitive to the way we think of recording (this didn't really dawn on me until I started programming RUU):

The recording of frames is controlled by triggering - not by time. Although you can specify a delay before the re-arming of the trigger - each frame is captured by a trigger. That means if you segment the memory for recording the maximum 65000 frames - and you use the maximum re-arm (delay) interval of 10 seconds - you can record a time-lapse picture of a triggered waveform that will be stretched over at least 7.5 days of time in length (with a trigger of at least once every 10 seconds). The slowest timebase setting for 65000 frames is 50ns - with 700ns being recorded with each frame. So that would be ~45 milliseconds of recorded time - spread evenly over 7.5 days. You can then run it through the analysis function - and get a histogram of deviation of the waveform over that length of time.

This is a really powerful feature - and as far as I can tell, there isn't anything remotely similar on the Agilent X Series - or anything else anywhere near this price class.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 01, 2013, 08:43:25 am
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

After using my new DS2072 for several days.  I noticed a rattling sound when I moved it.  Having heard of this clip retainer issue, I decided to investigate, but didn't want to void the warranty.  Luckily the heatsinks and clips can all be seen from the side ventilation holes.   I found on clip and one retainer were missing.  After lots of shaking, I was able to get both of the missing parts position by the ventilation holes and pulled them out with a tweezers.

It appears the retaining loop was soldered but not good enough for the heavy spring tension on it.

The first pic below shows the parts.
2nd pic shows one of the retainer loops still in place, but the spring missing.
3rd pic shows the position of the missing retainer. (screenshot from Dave's review, not my scope)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: SeanB on January 01, 2013, 09:05:01 am
Solder flow under strain....... To see it for yourself take a length of solder, around 4 foot in length, and hang it over a coat hanger or on a hook and leave it in a cupboard for a week undisturbed. It will break in that time from it's own mass and the constant pull on it. Those loops ideally should be made longer on the board solder side and bent over and clinched before soldering. That will hold them down mechanically and the solder will just provide additional support. If replacing them make the new ones from a loop of copper wire and bend it over after insertion and before soldering.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2013, 11:08:45 am
I have this bug on Loading of WFM files EXCEPT on loading a 54MPts See att

This is problematic, because it does not appear always on every saving and loading.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 11:49:24 am
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

Thanks for reporting this Martin. Unfortunately there's no easy way to check them without taking off that pesky sticker - aside from shaking the device - which might cause the problem.

I've never been a big fan of this method of spring retention - it's always seemed a little dubious to me. I've had them come off on three different motherboards over the years.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 12:00:42 pm
Hi!

Since recently I also own a DS2000 series scope (the 200MHz version) and I have some questions and comments too.

Overall it's a quite nice device, the UI is mostly intuitive and other than for the Owon scopes, you can look at the screen without getting eye cancer from the bad color choices. For what I tested it matches the promised specifications. The startup time is reasonably fast. The fan is sort of loud but its pitch is not annoying; I can easily live with that. The USB/LAN programming API is very powerful anyways (I just played with it a little bit). The overall build quality feels solid. The pushable knobs are a bit annoying at first since you often accidentially rotate them a bit while pushing, but I'm very sure that that will not happen any more once you've used them for a few weeks, it's just about practice. I'm already getting better at it. ;)
I think there is no point in writing down all the things which are cool, most of that has been said already.

Instead here's some more questions and toughts.

Here's the frequency response of the DS2202 scope (sorry, it's in relative units, the actual values on the y axis mean nothing; it's probably kind of inaccurate too). The four or five little "spikes" are measurement errors. You can see that the -3dB point is a bit above 200MHz. The trigger works okay for up to ~650MHz to 700MHz, above that it's getting very difficult to see anything except blur on the screen in non-singleshot mode. Maybe the big waves in the diagram are due to impedance mismatch, I'm not sure. I'll try again with different matching later.
This is not a professional measurement, don't rely on it or anything, it's just a nice image for illustration. ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/VQ8kal.png) (http://imgur.com/VQ8ka)
This was measured by pluging a frequency generator into the scope and making it sweep, reading Vpp via TMC after every sweep step.
Even at 1GHz there's still something visible, but only sharp in Single mode and it's kind of wobbly.

Then, some things that confuse me.

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

Then, a general technical question about how the trigger and dead time works. I figured that the DSO works by sampling the input and writing this to a ring buffer with size specified by memory depth. If a trigger event happens, the ring buffer is frozen (no new data is written to it) and the contents are what you call a "captured waveform" and will be displayed on the screen. After the buffer readout is complete, sampling continues. Is this correct so far?
How does the trigger work: is it done on the sampled data, or in an analog circuit? For the edge trigger, I guess the former, but I can't imagine that it holds true for the I2C trigger.
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?

At some places, the scope feels quite sluggish when moving or resizing curves. For example, in FFT mode, it seems to recalculate the FFT each time you move the reference level, making it feel quite sluggish to change that. It would be really great if Rigol fixed this, it wouldn't be very difficult ;)
It's not a big deal anyways, it just feels a bit slow in some situations (not that it would be any faster if they'd just move the curves, but it would *feel* faster).

Thanks for the nice amount of information collected in this thread anyways, very useful!

Greetings,
Sven

_______________________
P.S.: marmad, I sent you a private message. ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2013, 12:35:24 pm

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

There is a plug on the hole. You can take it off.


Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

Push the tip harder. It will click to its place.


About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

I have not found alt trigger either.



Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?

Yes, 50 ohm feed through adapter should be better.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 12:46:12 pm
Hi!

There is a plug on the hole. You can take it off.
Ah, okay. I tought so at first, but when it wasn't reasonably easy to remove, I just gave up on that.

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?
Push the tip harder. It will click to its place.
Haha, yeah, it really does -- stupid me. Thanks.


About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.
I have not found alt trigger either.
Ok, then I guess it's just not there.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?
Yes, 50 ohm feed through adapter should be better.
I'll probably buy one then, they're not very expensive.

Greetings,
Sven
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 01:01:26 pm
About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

For some reason, Rigol didn't include it in the DS2000 series - perhaps because of the ASIC they're using for the fast wfrm/s update rate - I don't know.

Quote
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and if (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?

Yes, in principle, the 'dead time' extends from the trigger moment. But for fast signals, you might have to consider the hold-off as well. The trigger system is not activated until a specified amount of samples are measured after starting the measurement (the trigger hold-off). When the input signal meets the trigger requirements during the trigger hold-off period, this will not generate a trigger and the system will remain sampling pre-samples. After the trigger hold-off has passed, at the first occasion that the trigger conditions are met, the system will start measuring post samples.

Quote
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Yes, but there can actually be only ONE final waveform in the sample memory eventually, so even though you see the contents of the waveform buffer (> 1 waveform) when you STOP the DSO - as soon as you change the horizontal or vertical scale, you see the display 'snap' to the last waveform captured.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 01, 2013, 01:03:42 pm
Hi!

Since recently I also own a DS2000 series scope (the 200MHz version) and I have some questions and comments too.


Then, some things that confuse me.

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?


Greetings,
Sven

I miss also the alternate trigger that is common on cheapo scoops, i did not found a workaround yet.

And yes about the 50 ohms it is not correct..., the BNC connector has not a high impedance for higher frequencies,
so the voltage on the BNC connector is not wath it is. Mine has 1 Mohm and 18 pf input, and also some inductance.
Even if you have a 50 ohm terminator on the input, the BNC connector has a complex impedance, which gives
wrong readings and also standing waves, as you can see on your plot. I measured on my Rigol 2072, that on 200 Mhz
the voltage drop by just connecting was 3 dB on a cable with T connector and 50 ohm termination, due to complex impedance.

So if possible i am very curious if you can measure then bandwidth on some points like 100-150-200Mhz...??

And the probes are oke for frequencies to 30 Mhz, and for pulse signals. For hihger frequencies you have to
use terminated cables. See also former posts.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 01:20:36 pm
And the probes are oke for frequencies to 30 Mhz, and for pulse signals. For hihger frequencies you have to
use terminated cables. See also former posts.

Just to put things in perspective, I would guess that this is likely true for almost, if not every DSO cheaper than the DS2000 series - and possibly more expensive scopes like the lower-end Hamegs and the Agilent 2000X series as well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2013, 01:22:16 pm
I have made some tests in the earlier posts. With T-adapter and 50 ohm terminator the responce curve is quite straight to 70 MHz. After that there is some SWR. I have not either this 50 ohm feed through terminator. I have bought it but not got it yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 01:38:52 pm
That is correct, thats why you have also special probes and active probes. If you want to do lab measurements
then you have to think about all these things. these cable reflections has so many influences.

I have worked for a cerfication calibration company, and before you were allowed to do any measuremts, you had
to follow several courses for several months. Anyone can read a display, but only a few knows what they measure.

Do you know of any decent probe brands for sale (~250MHz) that don't cost an arm and a leg?  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2013, 02:10:35 pm
Active probe Rigol RP7150 Fits for Rigol Series 4000, 6000 costs  3268 Eur. There is no for DS2000. If there is some it needs a separate power supply. Maybe somebody has self made.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 03:07:28 pm
Quote
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and if (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?

Yes, in principle, the 'dead time' extends from the trigger moment. But for fast signals, you might have to consider the hold-off as well. The trigger system is not activated until a specified amount of samples are measured after starting the measurement (the trigger hold-off). When the input signal meets the trigger requirements during the trigger hold-off period, this will not generate a trigger and the system will remain sampling pre-samples. After the trigger hold-off has passed, at the first occasion that the trigger conditions are met, the system will start measuring post samples.
Okay, I guess this is to have a consistent amounts of samples available for the user to scroll through before the trigger ... triggers.
Once the system is running, this will basically just add to the dead time tough, won't it? *

Quote
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Yes, but there can actually be only ONE final waveform in the sample memory eventually, so even though you see the contents of the waveform buffer (> 1 waveform) when you STOP the DSO - as soon as you change the horizontal or vertical scale, you see the display 'snap' to the last waveform captured.
Aah, alright, interesting. So they probably just use a screen buffer and draw all captured waveforms into it, and then 30 times per second (or whatever the screen refresh rate is), they swap the buffer to the screen and clear it? That sounds logical. Thanks for explaining!

Quote from: wim13
And yes about the 50 ohms it is not correct..., the BNC connector has not a high impedance for higher frequencies,
so the voltage on the BNC connector is not wath it is. Mine has 1 Mohm and 18 pf input, and also some inductance.
Even if you have a 50 ohm terminator on the input, the BNC connector has a complex impedance, which gives
wrong readings and also standing waves, as you can see on your plot.
Alright, so altough it should in theory be correct it is not because the plug screws things up... which likely won't be the case in a professionally made 50 ohm adaptor. Fine.

Quote from: EV
Active probe Rigol RP7150 Fits for Rigol Series 4000, 6000 costs  3268 Eur. There is no for DS2000.
Given that's more than twice the price of the scope that is not very surprising ;)

Greetings,
Sven


___________
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic ;) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if)
The "sic" behind it is used to tell that the previous thing which was said is believed by the author to be correct altough it might seem weird.
Sorry for that, I tought it was commonly used in the English language.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 03:18:25 pm
Okay, I guess this is to have a consistent amounts of samples available for the user to scroll through before the trigger ... triggers.
Once the system is running, this will basically just add to the dead time tough, won't it? *

Yes, if you consider it as coming after the normal post-trigger processing dead time - and before the next trigger.

Quote
Aah, alright, interesting. So they probably just use a screen buffer and draw all captured waveforms into it, and then 30 times per second (or whatever the screen refresh rate is), they swap the buffer to the screen and clear it? That sounds logical. Thanks for explaining!

Yes - like a 3D buffer for stacking the waveforms to set the alpha (or intensity grading). There are some quite good descriptions around for DPOs = Digital Phosphor Oscilloscopes - which is technically what the UltraVision line is (as opposed to a normal DSO).

Quote
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic

Yes, of course - I knew this - but the weird thing is that I don't remember processing it OR correcting the writing :) I must have done that without even thinking about it. But then looking back to your original statement as logic:

"So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure."

is NOT true - because you can also set the trigger to Single mode with the same outcome  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 03:36:12 pm
Ok, thanks for refining the explanations -- I think it's clear now.

Quote
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic

Yes, of course - I knew this - but the weird thing is that I don't remember processing it OR correcting the writing :) I must have done that without even thinking about it.
Haha now that's funny. Maybe some software corrected it, somewhere?

Quote
But then looking back to your original statement as logic:

"So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure."

is NOT true - because you can also set the trigger to Single mode with the same outcome  ;)
Right. ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 03:41:29 pm
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064) - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andersm on January 01, 2013, 04:01:45 pm
This is problematic, because it does not appear always on every saving and loading.
Is there a difference if you immediately reload after saving, or if you perform some additional measurements in between? From the descriptions, it sounds like the scope draws whatever is in the sample memory instead of the missing data, and if you just do a save and reload, chances are the original data is still there.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dougg on January 01, 2013, 04:04:05 pm
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064) - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).

Since you (marmad) are the main contributor to this thread (and several other DS2000 related threads on EEV forums), perhaps you might consider starting a webpage (or wiki) containing the collected wisdom on this subject. Perhaps Dave might help out with space and a reasonably well known domain name.

Decoding posts in such a long thread (actually 3 overlapping threads) can be time consuming. For example, the "F7-F6-F7" key sequence had me scratching my head. You won't find a key called "F7" in the Rigol manual or its help pages.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 04:05:11 pm
Is there a difference if you immediately reload after saving, or if you perform some additional measurements in between? From the descriptions, it sounds like the scope draws whatever is in the sample memory instead of the missing data, and if you just do a save and reload, chances are the original data is still there.

Not tested yet - the parameters of this bug are still unknown - and I haven't had the time to do a thorough investigation. Perhaps you'd like to discover them?  ;)

Since you (marmad) are the main contributor to this thread (and several other DS2000 related threads on EEV forums), perhaps you might consider starting a webpage (or wiki) containing the collected wisdom on this subject. Perhaps Dave might help out with space and a reasonably well known domain name.

Ahh... because I have sunk tons of time into these threads for other DS2000 owners - why not sink more?  ;)  Seriously, though I'm barely managing my time as it is - I leave this burden to someone else  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 01, 2013, 04:05:53 pm
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064) - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).

Here are my results. 20 ns , , 52700 with dots and 44500 with vectors on 1 mhz half scale...
but when push to full scale it drops to 38100 , so the vertical scale has also influence.

Same with 100 mhz, at 20 ns, 13600 half scale, and 10600 full scale, also freq. has influence.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 04:09:43 pm
but when push to full scale it drops to 38100 , so the vertical scale has also influence.

Everything can have an influence - even Menus displayed or not. Best case wfrm/s rates are often based on one - and only one - setting of ALL parameters on the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 04:12:03 pm
BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064) - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).
Yeah, I had seen that post, thanks for pointing it out. (I haven't read all of the thread(s) tough, it's *really* large)
I'm not really hunting glitches currently, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how it all works, since I feel that is important when using an instrument, if only to avoid faulty measurements. It's neverthereless a nice bit of information that the waveform update rate is best at 20ns/div timescale.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 04:15:20 pm
Here's a "before" and "after" picture of how the fast waveform capture rate is showing clearly a glitch - and how the stopped scope is showing the final capture.

This is taken while the scope is running:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35978;image)

This is taken when the scope is stopped - showing exactly what is currently in sample memory:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35980;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 04:26:47 pm
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 01, 2013, 04:51:50 pm
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)

Are using the Lan or the USB interface.., ?
I have only the IVI drivers loaded yet, could not download the Ultra Sigma software, the Rigol site is so slow.
Does your software run without the Rigol Ultra Sigma..?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on January 01, 2013, 05:12:29 pm
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)

I can second this. The Marmad software tool is gold when wanting to take quick snapshots of the scope screen. The process is faster, easier and the resulting file is better for web (though there might be some setting I don't know about to fix the save-directly-to-usb-format for the more traditional usb stick storage).

The software is easy to install, free and works well. Just download the USB drivers (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/3342 (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/3342)) and download the files from Marmad's separate software-thread into a separate directory, and run it and it works.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 01, 2013, 05:24:57 pm
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

Thanks for reporting this Martin. Unfortunately there's no easy way to check them without taking off that pesky sticker - aside from shaking the device - which might cause the problem.

I've never been a big fan of this method of spring retention - it's always seemed a little dubious to me. I've had them come off on three different motherboards over the years.

I just used a flashlight and looked through the vents as shown in one of the pics.  You can see all the clips and retainers this way, though it does take some work to get the viewing angle and flashlight angles...  I didn't remove my Void sticker.   The shaking I did was mostly just rolilng the parts around near the vents.  No where near what a real product verification vibration test would do:)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andersm on January 01, 2013, 05:54:33 pm
Not tested yet - the parameters of this bug are still unknown - and I haven't had the time to do a thorough investigation. Perhaps you'd like to discover them?  ;)
Send me a scope and I'd be happy to.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: SeanB on January 01, 2013, 05:58:21 pm
Mike of Electricstuff.co.uk did do a neat little video of precisely how to get around that particular sticker, on a similar model as well. That was a fascination demo, very good and detailed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 05:59:40 pm
Are using the Lan or the USB interface.., ?
I have only the IVI drivers loaded yet, could not download the Ultra Sigma software, the Rigol site is so slow.
Does your software run without the Rigol Ultra Sigma..?

@Wim: You can use either LAN or USB - although I didn't write any code for sniffing out LAN connections through VISA (which aren't quite as detectable as the USB plug and play) - so if the software doesn't find the LAN connection on it's own, just type the following string while inserting your own IP address in place of this sample one:     TCPIP::192.168.1.200::INSTR
But keep in mind - it takes 2.3 seconds for a screen grab over USB - and about 6 seconds via LAN. Not a big deal with a single capture - but if you want to compile an animated GIF from 1000 frames, it starts to add up.

BTW, there aren't IVI drivers for the DS2000 yet - so I'm not sure what you're referring to. This was one of the first things I asked my dealer about - and Rigol's response was:
"About IVI driver for DS2000, I note that R&D have put this in the plan list but the concrete date I still don't know. When its released we will put it on the website."

Yes, no need for Ultra Sigma - although it van be handy for debugging problems with the scope. Just NI-VISA runtime.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 01, 2013, 06:05:07 pm
@ Marmad, its working, using Visa511runtime as driver.

Windows XP 32 bit, and via TCP/IP

The TCP-Ip command was on the info page of the scoop when you open the browser page.

And you can run more then once, i have now open three times
with different info. We will play with the software.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 06:23:36 pm
I can't believe that when I first started playing around with making movies from recorded frames I was stacking .BMP files into massive .MP4 movies  :P  and with almost no compression, of course, because you would lose the detail of the waveform. It took awhile to finally penetrate my thick skull that animated GIFs were much better for this 'vector' animation  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 06:25:44 pm
I just used a flashlight and looked through the vents as shown in one of the pics.  You can see all the clips and retainers this way, though it does take some work to get the viewing angle and flashlight angles...  I didn't remove my Void sticker.   The shaking I did was mostly just rolilng the parts around near the vents.  No where near what a real product verification vibration test would do:)

Thanks for this info, Martin. Maybe we all need to do a minor shake test once a day before we bootup (and with power cord unplugged)  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 09:23:17 pm
Is that software of yours cross-platform, so it could be ported to another OS by implementing a different backend for device communication? What language is it written in? Did you consider putting it on e.g. github? ;)

Greetings,
Sven
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 09:36:22 pm
Is that software of yours cross-platform, so it could be ported to another OS by implementing a different backend for device communication? What language is it written in? Did you consider putting it on e.g. github? ;)

VB.NET - because I already had some SCPI modules written from when I briefly owned a DS1052E.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 02, 2013, 06:10:49 am
I posted an update on IVI drivers/info for the DS2000 series in the "Software & Tips" thread.  See my post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg177056/#msg177056 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg177056/#msg177056)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jeeff47 on January 02, 2013, 07:00:00 am
Wow... you guys sure hit the thread hard in the last 24h... took me a little to catch up.
Thanks for all the thoughts and info everyone.

So just to confirm... I know on pg 22 or 23 people were talking about scope probes and someone pointed out that there are currently no alternate probes that can be used with the Rigol DS2000 models. This is due to how the probes are powered?
So overall its essentially confirmed that there are currently no Tek, Agilent or other scope probes that are not cross compatible?

I also experienced issues with the probe clips not staying on the scope probe I will try and "click" the tips on there; hopefully I wont break anything.

Thank you for posting about the heat sink? Aside from the one person on here and the video which was created back in September (?) which was mentioned in Dave's video(?)(I could be wrong of the alternate place i heard of this); has anybody else experienced any issues with this? Do you know when you scope was manufactured?

The way to determine this is in your serial number for instance:
DS2A143500123
the 14 represents rigols 14th year of operation
and the 35 represents the 35th week in that year.

Maybe this is a batch issue?


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 02, 2013, 05:21:03 pm
Wow... you guys sure hit the thread hard in the last 24h... took me a little to catch up.
Thanks for all the thoughts and info everyone.

So just to confirm... I know on pg 22 or 23 people were talking about scope probes and someone pointed out that there are currently no alternate probes that can be used with the Rigol DS2000 models. This is due to how the probes are powered?
So overall its essentially confirmed that there are currently no Tek, Agilent or other scope probes that are not cross compatible?


The way to determine this is in your serial number for instance:
DS2A143500123
the 14 represents rigols 14th year of operation
and the 35 represents the 35th week in that year.

Maybe this is a batch issue?

Rigol was founded in 1998, + 14 is 2012, mine serial number has 14 and 47 , so should be 2012, nov 19
that is quite new..

About the probes, yes there are cross compatible probes, a lot, but they cost a lot, on the agilent site
there are more then 100 kinds, but also second hand on the site of www.helmut-singer.de (http://www.helmut-singer.de) on the scoop accessories page.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 02, 2013, 07:13:19 pm
Hi,  DS2072   FW1.00.02    DSA1421xxxxx
when the stick was inserted/left-in before start-up .
Is this to prevent boot from Stick?
Is this only on 1.00.02?

Yes, i dont have this, on 1.00,05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 02, 2013, 07:15:40 pm
When loading Waveforms from a USB Stick I have to remove the stick and re-insert after I have  selected Storage, Load, when the stick was inserted/left-in before start-up .
Is this only on 1.00.02?

This isn't a problem for me using 01.00.05. Have you tried alternate sticks? Some devices are notoriously picky about the brand.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 02, 2013, 07:34:24 pm
My Story to here!
    I was working on a project that needed a storage scope ,it was to measure motor Tach Voltages running very slow ,2 RPM with lots of Commutator Ripple. at 2s/div scan;  So I went t on a search for a DSO , And found reviews and Praise for DS1052 and the hack.  Then I found Marmad's series of Reviews. (*rigolds1052, Hantek, Owen, and I my wish list got more clarified.  I almost went for the Owen for the Battery Feature but waited.
I learnt about Sample time, equivalent Sample time,  Bandwidth, hacks, analog frontend, quality,screen size, resolution. memory depth.....

I looked at high-end stuff,  and lucked upon
Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series vs. Tektronix TDS2000 Series oscilloscopes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTI8fp-z4y0#)

I almost bought an agilent at $2000,
but heard that DS2000 was coming.  I knew that Rigol and Agilent had a deal and hope there was some design exchanged , Then when we all got the DS2000 specs, looking a lot like Agilent 2000x , with 50,000 Frame updates and , wow 56Mpts Depth. , I bought.

I had already received DS2072, before Dave's reviews and Tear down,   " I Like It !!!"
Good to see inside.
I do give Praise to Marmad, and Recommend Rigol reward him with a Bonus, "Free Upgrade to Options"


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 02, 2013, 10:19:12 pm
I do give Praise to Marmad, and Recommend Rigol reward him with a Bonus, "Free Upgrade to Options"
Thanks for the kind words, Teneyes. I did actually get one free license code for my Rigol - for the extra triggers - but that was more through the kindness and generosity of my dealer, drieg (http://www.silcon.cz/index.php?route=common/home) - than through Rigol. He was offered some compensation from Rigol because of the problems and service needed surrounding the early firmware of the DS4000 - and one thing he got from them was one of the option codes for me - to thank me for making the review and promoting the DS2000 series. Quite unexpected and generous of him. I still highly recommend him as the place to buy a Rigol for Europeans - with the same price / free delivery as Batronix - but much more personal and knowledgeable after-service.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 02, 2013, 10:52:55 pm
When loading Waveforms from a USB Stick I have to remove the stick and re-insert after I have  selected Storage, Load, when the stick was inserted/left-in before start-up .
Is this only on 1.00.02?

This isn't a problem for me using 01.00.05. Have you tried alternate sticks? Some devices are notoriously picky about the brand.
If it's anything like my DG4062, it'll be horribly picky - and the faults that show up vary between memory sticks. I had one not recognised at all, one became unreadable in the PC after being used in the Rigol, and one would work OK in both Rigol and PC, but they were clearly accessing different memory areas in the Flash because neither could see the other's files (and would clearly end up corrupting and overwriting them).

My dealer recommended Integral brand sticks as being ones which they'd found to work, and sure enough, I found an Integral 16GB stick worked fine:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002RL52K8/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002RL52K8/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 02, 2013, 10:56:09 pm
...because of the problems and service needed surrounding the early firmware of the DS4000...
I know the DS4000 series is more expensive and there aren't quite so many around, but: am I to assume that the DS4000 series runs similar firmware and suffers from similar bugs to the DS2000 series? If I were looking at ordering one soon, should I hold off or at least insist on it being supplied with a particular firmware version?

Is there a list of known bugs in the DS4000 series anywhere?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 02, 2013, 11:24:25 pm
I know the DS4000 series is more expensive and there aren't quite so many around, but: am I to assume that the DS4000 series runs similar firmware and suffers from similar bugs to the DS2000 series? If I were looking at ordering one soon, should I hold off or at least insist on it being supplied with a particular firmware version?

Is there a list of known bugs in the DS4000 series anywhere?

Clearly the entire 'new' UltraVision line (2000/4000/6000) must share a similar platform - and thus, must share some code - but I haven't seen a bug list for the 4000 or 6000 series - and the 2000 shares some features with the 6000, but not the 4000 - and has some unique features all it's own (like the 500uV sensitivity). So I don't think you can make any assumptions about shared bugs - best to confer with DS4000 owners. I'd hoped that a few would join in on this thread, but I haven't noticed if they have. The particular problem that I mentioned above was a bug in the early firmware of the 4000 series which caused corruption of the internal FLASH memory - and could lead to bricking (and so requiring service). I know that that bug has been eliminated in the latest FW.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 03, 2013, 02:54:56 am
Also, since I have the animated GIF option as a kind of compiled version of the screen images - I'd like to do the same for the CSV output. Does anyone know if you can make a database file that is in CSV format? So it could be opened in Access or another DB program?
To what purpose? A relational database isn't really appropriate for this sort of data I don't think. Though most database engines I'm familiar with can import CSV fairly easily (Postgres, MySQL and Oracle all can).

Have just ordered my DS2072 thanks to this thread and particularly your posts marmad. Thanks for the info and software, I'm sure I will be satisfied. Waiting anxiously for a shipment notification so I can play ;).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 03, 2013, 04:07:35 am
Well, I'm not sure - maybe we can discover a purpose later. But originally the idea was just as a possible solution to an organizational problem - if you want a voltage record of each waveform stored in a 100 different frames, the DS2000 doesn't allow you to save any files when in Record mode. But my software can pull out that voltage record from each frame and save it as a CSV file, but then you have a 100 (or whatever) separate CSV files. I thought it might be handier to have it stored in a single file, as a database of frames connected via their relationship to time. Anyway, just trying to think of more efficient ways to save recorded data for possible analysis or processing later.
I see what you mean, maybe something a little more elegant than a bunch of timestamped text files is required... Maybe a simple XML format? Unless you're planning on writing a 'waveform management system' as well though (and I'm sure many would be happy if you were!), this might be one to leave as an exercise to the reader. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andrewfernie on January 03, 2013, 12:46:32 pm
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)


Works like a charm.

In addition to it being faster you also get the opportunity to enter a (hopefully meaningful) name for the file as you save it.

Thank you for the work you have put into the application - much appreciated.

Andrew
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 03, 2013, 01:52:38 pm
This thread veered off into the software side - so in the interest of a little thread management, I'm going to repost this short discussion over in the other thread and delete my (software-related) comments here.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 03, 2013, 07:00:06 pm
  I find that if Counter is On ,
 AUTO does not work
Does this happen on FW=1.00.05?

It seems to work for me with FW 01.00.05:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=36102;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 03, 2013, 07:06:09 pm
  I find that if Counter is On ,
 AUTO does not work
Does this happen on FW=1.00.05?

It seems to work for me with FW 01.00.05:

It works here too. When I noticed this problem, I had also FW 1.00.02. Now it is 1.00.05 and I have not used AUTO for a long time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on January 03, 2013, 07:40:31 pm
DS2072   FW=1.00.02
Update on Bug 7.) AUTO routine sometimes fails
  I find that if Counter is On, one channel Only ,
 AUTO does not work
   changes trigger and scan rate
   and only displays a blank Menu
See Displays att.

On my DS2072 with the .02 FW AUTO sometimes fails like you mention when the Counter is On and one channel selected, but it sometimes works (despite using an identical input signal).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: michi on January 04, 2013, 07:34:52 am
Hi Marmad, and everybody else

Based on your great review on the DS2072 and the posts to the EEVblog forum here, I decided to order the DS2072 for myself. Thank you all!

I did so trough Rigols official distributor for Switzerland. As soon as it arrives I will post software version and hardware revision, for you guys to see (to confirm your theory about RigolNa and Rigol Europe shipping different firmwares), also to see if there is already newer firmware on the market.

I hope that I can contribute to your efforts, especially help testing RUU software, where I find the GIFs absolutely brilliant.

As for my motivation, I have this idea that I might be possible to combine the readings from the DSO and feed it somehow into the software from saleae to allow decoding of two-channel protocols like I2C. (Or maybe into sump - altough it looks a lot less appealing than the software from saleae). Maybe I can contribute something to your effords here.

I'll update you as soon as the scope arrives.  :D



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 05, 2013, 04:56:46 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CarlG on January 05, 2013, 05:43:25 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

You've set the trigger level just below the "hat" level, so naturally that is what the scope is triggering on. Set the trigger to mid level of the sine instead, and see if you can see the hat then. If not, set to inifinite persistence.

//C
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 05, 2013, 05:54:29 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

You've set the trigger level just below the "hat" level, so naturally that is what the scope is triggering on. Set the trigger to mid level of the sine instead, and see if you can see the hat then. If not, set to inifinite persistence.

//C

My scope shows the same thing and it definitely appears to be trigger related.  I'm guessing you are running averaging?  My signal is a lot noisier without averaging.  I also noticed if you lower the trigger level the 'hat' follows, but is less obvious when not on the peak.  When you turn averaging off, it appears there is much less noise displayed at the triggerpoint compared to the rest of the wave.

Another thing I notice is the scope loses trigger if you go below ~ the zero crossing of the sine wave.  This is while using rising edge trigger.  The opposite is true with falling edge trigger.   

I think the waveform is only triggering above the peak of your sinewave, therefore is showing 'noise' in that particular peak. because it can't get averaged out...because it is there everytime it triggers.  The 'hat' effect becomes less noticable as amplitude increases because your signal to noise ratio improves.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 05, 2013, 08:08:29 pm
Quote
Why doesn't the DSO show "T'D" ? ,Triggered , with the peak of wave well above trigger level

I'm not sure why, but if you move the trigger up any more it will lose trigger.  It's acting as though the real trigger level is lower than the displayed trigger level.   This is how it's working on my scope anyway.  Note I have not been running the calibration routine as I don't want to lose the trial features.  Not sure if this could be a factor.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on January 06, 2013, 06:50:03 am
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

My scope does the same thing and I think martinv's explanation is correct.  The scope is triggering on noise on top of the peak of the sine wave (there's apparently an offset for these tiny voltages).  This noise shows as a peak at the trigger point because it survives the averaging, as it is correlated because it's triggering on that.  But away from the trigger time, the noise is not correlated so it gets averaged out.  So I think it's just an artifact of the trigger/averaging process and not a bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 06, 2013, 12:08:32 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point,
DS2072 Fw1.00.02 for clarity, I suggest prefix with Model and FW

What does the '*' mean on the "700 pts*"?

Why doesn't the DSO show "T'D" ? ,Triggered , with the peak of wave well above trigger level

I never see "RUN", on top left of my DSO

I only see  AUTO, |AUTO| reversed, and T'D when in Auto
  Maybe changed in your later FW?

In the user guide, page 1-22 there is also stop and run possible..
i must say it is the first time i saw run also over there, the user guide dont tell much about it.

And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 06, 2013, 12:14:36 pm
Strange hat,

My scope does the same thing and I think martinv's explanation is correct.  The scope is triggering on noise on top of the peak of the sine wave (there's apparently an offset for these tiny voltages).  This noise shows as a peak at the trigger point because it survives the averaging, as it is correlated because it's triggering on that.  But away from the trigger time, the noise is not correlated so it gets averaged out.  So I think it's just an artifact of the trigger/averaging process and not a bug.

I also do not think it is a bug, but search for an explanation.
The trigger has no connection with the avarage, and the trigger is always in this case in the middle,
so for the trigger it is a almost a fix point, for the avarage not.

But you also see it with avarage off, only more difficult to see
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 06, 2013, 01:57:55 pm
Quote
I also do not think it is a bug, but search for an explanation.
The trigger has no connection with the avarage, and the trigger is always in this case in the middle,
so for the trigger it is a almost a fix point, for the avarage not.

But you also see it with avarage off, only more difficult to see

Even without averaging, it is still triggering on the peak of the noise.  Probably less noticable without averaging because it becomes more hidden in the noise. (Assuming your waveform is noisy like mine when averaging is off). 
I don't recall seeing this effect on the Tektronix scopes at my work place, but I don't think I ever looked at such weak signals on them. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dougg on January 06, 2013, 03:10:59 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

Another observation is that the 10 MHz sine wave is not at a sufficient level to have its frequency counted: "< 15 Hz".
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 06, 2013, 04:51:58 pm
Strange hat,

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

Another observation is that the 10 MHz sine wave is not at a sufficient level to have its frequency counted: "< 15 Hz".

The counter needs some level to operate, even if you have a strong signal,
and turn down the sensitivity of the selected channel, the counter goes off.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 06, 2013, 07:12:20 pm
Strange hat, and now a Ditch
It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?
I'm DS2072   FW=1.00.02  Trial options
I see this as the compilation of 2 criteria, averaging signal But only show the peak trigger point at the center of the screen. So the high point is always stable where as the  rest is averaged.
in the 1st display I show just noise but the Hat is there , 8 sample averaging
(Note at 50ns , 700 pts memory)

In the 2nd display I show using runt  triggering and the trigger window levels
(Note at 20ns , displays 700 pts* memory)

In the 3rd display I show, using runt  triggering ,   a "Ditch"
Is the "Ditch" a Glitch in the software?   ;)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 06, 2013, 07:30:04 pm
Strange hat,

DS2202   FW=1.00.05, BW limit set to 20 MHz. There is some offset present too. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 07, 2013, 03:22:09 am
(different topic from the last several posts)
I have a question about the Record/Play back functions.  I tried using the serial decode function and found about the maximum I could fit on 1 screen is as shown in the attached picture.

Now I can zoom much further out in the horizontal scale and capture a huge chuck of data then zoom back in to read/decode it. 
I figured this would be a great use for the record and playback,  but I discovered large gaps of lost data between each recorded frame/(screen).  I'm assuming this is normal?

So i'm back to the zoom way out, grab a screen with max data points, then zoom back in to read/decode.   
Instead of scrolling with the tiny horizontal knob, WHY can't this nice big jog wheel be used to scroll quickly forward and back instead of using the little horizontal knob.  Wouldn't this be a huge improvement? Perhaps this could included in a future update.   I feel like hooking up my cordless drill to the Horizontal knob sometimes:)   
I don't have much experience in capturing/decoding data, so please let me know your thoughts and preffered methods of doing this.   
What are some of the other uses for the record/playback feature? 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JOHNJB on January 07, 2013, 04:37:56 am
So it looks that the bandwidth at the BNC connector is 200 Mhz at -3 db,
if you ingnore the impedance changes at the BNC input.
Keep in mind that it is a 1 Mohm 18 pf input. The scoops >200 Mhz
have also 50 ohms inputs.

Anyone who can verify ??


I have tested the BW of my DS2102
with some nice results, summarizing:

BW in BNC= 190Mhz.
BW in 1/10 probe = 244Mhz.

Trigger OK just 375Mhz.
Counter just 410Mhz - accuracy -0,+2 last digit.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2013, 05:52:02 am
And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.

It means <= 700 bytes. Depending on the timebase setting, frame recording, and other settings, the sample size can continue to drop in AUTO mode - following the defined scale: 560 -> 140 -> (70) -> 56 bytes - which appears to be the smallest size used - which equals 4 points per division.

If you are seeing strange artifacts (like this 'hat') you are describing when at "700*" - you should first determine exactly how many points are being used to define this artifact (which might come from aliasing). This is easy to do by switching to dot mode and stopping the DSO when the "700*" is displayed. At these lower sample settings, it's often easy to count the points per division.

You can also see the actual sample size when at "700* by running my Read Memory Test  - the real size being reported to the STATUS command.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2013, 06:16:27 am
I figured this would be a great use for the record and playback,  but I discovered large gaps of lost data between each recorded frame/(screen).  I'm assuming this is normal?

Not normal, no, unless it's what you wanted - or you didn't quite understand how the recording works. The DSO records each frame when triggered (with a possible delay interval before re-arming the trigger).  If I wanted to capture, for example, loads of I2C data - I might set up the I2C trigger so that it would record a frame for each packet. A slow recurring trigger will mean slow recording, with lots of time between - fast recurring triggers the opposite. Bigger memory depths will mean less possible frames - but more data per frame. The fastest possible record rate is limited by the waveform capture rate at any particular timebase setting (i.e. fastest record rates are at 20ns).

Quote
Instead of scrolling with the tiny horizontal knob, WHY can't this nice big jog wheel be used to scroll quickly forward and back instead of using the little horizontal knob.  Wouldn't this be a huge improvement?

Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what you're doing when "zooming" - but in fact, you CAN use the 'big jog wheel' for doing exactly what you're talking about in Delayed Sweep mode (windowed zoom). You actually have three distinct controls you can use: the Navigation Knob, the Navigation Wheel, and the Horizontal Position Knob. If you happen to be both frame recording AND in delayed sweep - the Navigation Knob and Wheel become dedicated to frame playback - and only the Hor.Position knob is then used for moving the delay offset (zoom window).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 07, 2013, 11:13:12 am
I have now got the Rigol 50 ohm feed thru terminator. In the first picture is sweep from 1 MHz to 160 MHz using this terminator. The change between max and min level is under 1 dB and compared to 1 MHz level the change is under 0.5 dB.

In the second picture is the same sweep with T-Adapter and 50 ohm terminator. There is no change in the curve, if feed thru terminator is used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 07, 2013, 05:47:39 pm
And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.

It means <= 700 bytes. Depending on the timebase setting, frame recording, and other settings, the sample size can continue to drop in AUTO mode - following the defined scale: 560 -> 140 -> (70) -> 56 bytes - which appears to be the smallest size used - which equals 4 points per division.


Thanks for the explanation, could not find it in the manual.

The 4 points per div is only for the 100 and 200 Mhz models,
The 2072 has only 5 nS per div

At 2 Gsa/s: is 2 samples per 1 nS, so 5 ns is 10 samples per div.
for the 14 div's i get 140 sample points.. as a minimum.

Note, the squares on the screen are not sqaure..
The screen is 15.4 at 8.4 cm, that is 1.1 cm and 1.05 cm

In the X-Y mode the screen is 7.7 and 7.2 cm, what is not a square.



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 07, 2013, 05:50:55 pm
So it looks that the bandwidth at the BNC connector is 200 Mhz at -3 db,
if you ingnore the impedance changes at the BNC input.
Keep in mind that it is a 1 Mohm 18 pf input. The scoops >200 Mhz
have also 50 ohms inputs.

Anyone who can verify ??


I have tested the BW of my DS2102
with some nice results, summarizing:

BW in BNC= 190Mhz.
BW in 1/10 probe = 244Mhz.

Trigger OK just 375Mhz.
Counter just 410Mhz - accuracy -0,+2 last digit.

Thanks for the measurement..,
So the test on the BNC is almost the same,
Only on the probes, thats intresting, i cannot reproduce that.
How was you setup for the probe testing...??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: michi on January 07, 2013, 08:44:58 pm
Hi Marmad, and everybody else

Based on your great review on the DS2072 and the posts to the EEVblog forum here, I decided to order the DS2072 for myself. Thank you all!

 - snip -

I'll update you as soon as the scope arrives.  :D

The scope arrived today, and here are the different software/hardware versions:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.02
Hardware Version: 1.1.0.0
FPGA version:
   SPU: 03.01.02
   WPU: 00.06.00
   CCU: 12.29.00
   MCU 00.05
Serial Number starts with DS2A1432 (2012, week 32)

When I started it up, it showed a remaining 2154 minutes of trial options and I immediately tried to get most out of the option time I have. I am doing I2C analysis, and I am learning to use the record functionality.
The fan is louder than I expected but still OK.
I noticed that when working with I2C decoding, sometimes the decoding stops working (when Power Cycling, or when changing display type from Vector to Dots), but switching "BusStatus" off and on again, solved the problem and it works fine again.

After two fun hours with the DSO, I can make two conclusions:
a) the scope is really fun to work with and
b) for some reason my Basic Micro ARC32 controller seems to always set the first bit to high in each byte read from I2C - I have absolutely no clue why.

ps. I added a screenshot to show an example of I2C decoding  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 08, 2013, 03:37:42 am
After two fun hours with the DSO, I can make two conclusions:
a) the scope is really fun to work with and
b) for some reason my Basic Micro ARC32 controller seems to always set the first bit to high in each byte read from I2C - I have absolutely no clue why.

ps. I added a screenshot to show an example of I2C decoding  :D

Welcome, michi - and thanks for your initial thoughts.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 09, 2013, 06:30:14 am
After a bit of a headache with UPS I received my DS2072 today from Tequipment! To my surprise it seems I've got an even older firmware version than you guys are getting (if I'm reading it right), 00.00.01:
(http://i.imgur.com/Jo35b.png)

I wanted to characterize the scope so I did some measurements with my HP 8657A signal generator using 1m of RG58A/U, I wanted to terminate it to 50R but my BNC tee is not up to the job and I don't have a thru. Unfortunately the flatness of the generator isn't very good without termination, so I won't post numeric results right now. If anyone knows a good source for decent BNC 50R thrus that aren't $50 I'd appreciate it.


I'm going to have a play with the I2C and SPI triggering and decoding and possibly make a video on them.

Overall I'm pretty impressed with the 'scope from the past couple of hours exploring. My biggest disappointment is probably the image capture features. Capturing a PNG file to the USB stick takes like 45 seconds! BMP is faster but still quite a few seconds. I was expecting the 'print' button to be pretty much instant. Copying over the network using RUU (this is great! thanks!) isn't much faster, but I do like the idea of having a network connected 'scope ;).

Now to figure out how to defeat the trial period and get 200MHz bandwidth!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 09, 2013, 07:43:08 am
If anyone knows a good source for decent BNC 50R thrus that aren't $50 I'd appreciate it.


It is here at accessories $ 25.

http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ds2072/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ds2072/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 09, 2013, 07:50:16 am
See
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg172218/#msg172218 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg172218/#msg172218)

for acess to real firmware version number
Thanks Teneyes, I did read talk about this special menu but I thought it was only for upgrading for some reason. Weird that they'd obscure this... anyway I have the same version 1.00.02 that everyone else has.

EV thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 09, 2013, 08:03:57 am
Hi,

I'm planning to buy a new scope and been thinking whether to get the Owon SDS7102V or Rigol DS2072. The higher bandwidth of Owon is a big plus (-3dB point somewhere near 150MHz), but hunting some random glitches seems to be better in DS2072.
Has anybody measured the actual bandwidth of DS2072? At what frequency might this -3dB point be?

There's of course price difference between these two, but I'd like to by a scope which is usable for many years to come and could be used for various needs.
What might be the best place to purchase DS2072 in Europe (I live in Finland) ? I've checked the Batronix, but are there some other sellers with better price?
I'm thinking that if I buy Owon now, would I find myself buying a better scope after some time...of course battery operation and VGA are nice goodies.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 09, 2013, 08:14:27 am
I'm planning to buy a new scope and been thinking whether to get the Owon SDS7102V or Rigol DS2072. The higher bandwidth of Owon is a big plus (-3dB point somewhere near 150MHz), but hunting some random glitches seems to be better in DS2072.
Has anybody measured the actual bandwidth of DS2072? At what frequency might this -3dB point be?
Mine is around 100MHz. It looks like it's probably the same hardware as the higher bandwidth models though, so there may be a software or hardware hack.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2013, 02:35:33 pm
Overall I'm pretty impressed with the 'scope from the past couple of hours exploring. My biggest disappointment is probably the image capture features. Capturing a PNG file to the USB stick takes like 45 seconds! BMP is faster but still quite a few seconds. I was expecting the 'print' button to be pretty much instant. Copying over the network using RUU (this is great! thanks!) isn't much faster, but I do like the idea of having a network connected 'scope ;).

How could BMPs be faster than PNGs? They are often ~100x bigger - and writing to an external device usually requires more time than processing - although I can't say I've actually timed saving BMPs on the DS2000. Also, I don't know if the brand of USB stick you're using (or FW 01.00.02) affects save/transfer rates - but my timed speeds are:

My Rigol takes ~15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick.

The Rigol UltraVision Utilities take ~2.3 seconds using USB to transfer, convert & save a BMP (all bitmap transfers from the DSO are BMP - conversion to other formats is handled by RUU).

RUU takes ~6 seconds using LAN to transfer, convert & save a BMP.


I would say that if your rates while using RUU are much longer than what is mentioned above, either there is an unreported FW problem in 01.00.02 - or something is wrong with your DSO/connection/network setup.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2013, 02:58:55 pm
What might be the best place to purchase DS2072 in Europe (I live in Finland) ? I've checked the Batronix, but are there some other sellers with better price?
Well, as I mentioned in the video and a couple of times since (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg177291/#msg177291), I recommend people buying in the EU use EEVBlog member drieg. Same price/free shipping as Batronix (I think the price is fixed in the EU - same as in NA)- but much better before/after sales support. Drieg is the one testing and reporting all of the bugs we discover here on the blog to Rigol - and I gather he is perhaps the biggest expert here on all things Rigol.

I bought the DS1052E I owned briefly from Batronix - and my DS2072 from his company - and there can be no comparison as to knowledge/support.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 09, 2013, 03:47:43 pm
How could BMPs be faster than PNGs? They are often ~100x bigger - and writing to an external device usually requires more time than processing - although I can't say I've actually timed saving BMPs on the DS2000. Also, I don't know if the brand of USB stick you're using (or FW 01.00.02) affects save/transfer rates - but my timed speeds are:
PNG is quite often slower even on a fast PC depending on how you set the compression. The CPU in these is not fast. It wouldn't surprise me that much.

However I've done some more poking around and it seems that the problem only happens if you set Storage>Storage to Picture instead of Traces. I'm not sure what the difference is since it seems to produce identical image files, but Traces doesn't allow filetype selection and takes from 2-5s to write to the USB and makes a BMP file.

Thanks for setting me straight, that's a lot better ;).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2013, 04:26:52 pm
However I've done some more poking around and it seems that the problem only happens if you set Storage>Storage to Picture instead of Traces. I'm not sure what the difference is since it seems to produce identical image files, but Traces doesn't allow filetype selection and takes from 2-5s to write to the USB and makes a BMP file.

I'm happy you figured out a method to make it quicker for yourself (although saved traces [the channel data itself] is not the same as a saved bitmap of the entire screen) - but it doesn't really resolve the issue or shed light on the problem behind it - which might be helpful for other 01.00.02 users here.

It takes you 45 seconds to save a PNG picture - but it takes me 15 seconds. Is this a question of firmware - or different USB sticks?

Also, would you please mind posting the time (and connection method) it takes to transfer & save a PNG using RUU? This might help resolve things.

Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 09, 2013, 06:23:41 pm
Well, as I mentioned in the video and a couple of times since (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg177291/#msg177291), I recommend people buying in the EU use EEVBlog member drieg. Same price/free shipping as Batronix (I think the price is fixed in the EU - same as in NA)- but much better before/after sales support. Drieg is the one testing and reporting all of the bugs we discover here on the blog to Rigol - and I gather he is perhaps the biggest expert here on all things Rigol.
Thanks for this information.
It seems that the DS2072 is lacking the alt trigger mode and dual timebase, or have I missed something?

Marmad, can you briefly summarize, what were the main reasons for replacing the Owon with DS2072? Can these reasons justify the price difference...?
Btw, there seems to be slight difference in end user prices (with VAT included) when comparing Batronix to Silicon electronics...(maybe due to different VAT amount).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2013, 07:01:12 pm
It seems that the DS2072 is lacking the alt trigger mode and dual timebase, or have I missed something?
No alternate trigger - but many other standard included triggers (plus even more via one of the option packages). Yes dual timebase - called Delayed Sweep - which is very easy to enter and exit (via a simple push of the Horizontal Scale knob).

Quote
Marmad, can you briefly summarize, what were the main reasons for replacing the Owon with DS2072? Can these reasons justify the price difference...?
Well, actually, the Owon was replaced with a Hantek - which was later returned. I then continued using my analog Tek scope until I read about the Rigol DS2000 series. But I've spoken/written about this quite a lot already (short synopsis here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg58541/#msg58541)) so suffice it to say that all of your instincts (and the stuff you wrote in your previous post) are correct.

Quote
Btw, there seems to be slight difference in end user prices (with VAT included) when comparing Batronix to Silicon electronics...(maybe due to different VAT amount).
I bought my DS2072 through my company (so minus VAT), but if you send drieg a PM or email about the difference, he might be able to help you out.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JOHNJB on January 09, 2013, 10:38:27 pm

[/quote]

Thanks for the measurement..,
So the test on the BNC is almost the same,
Only on the probes, thats intresting, i cannot reproduce that.
How was you setup for the probe testing...??
[/quote]

This is the configuration used (photo).
The coaxial wire as not SWR because finishes with an -30dB attenuator,
As the oscilloscope has no 50H terminator, must place a T whit the 50H load.
The other branch of the T, is connect at BNC of scope.
This small (not at high frequencies) branch approx 8cm. is not well coupled and cause inaccuracies at high frequencies.
I think the measures are very accurate up to 200Mhz.

The probe is connected like in the photo, not used the grund co-codrile tip.

John 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 10, 2013, 04:11:24 am
I'm happy you figured out a method to make it quicker for yourself (although saved traces [the channel data itself] is not the same as a saved bitmap of the entire screen) - but it doesn't really resolve the issue or shed light on the problem behind it - which might be helpful for other 01.00.02 users here.
Okay I did some more testing on this issue. Saving PNGs definitely takes > 30s, whether from the Storage menu or from the Print button after choosing PNG in storage. BMPs do seem to be quick though, around 2s. I think my confusion was in using the Storage menu to change the Print format, I think I must have not confirmed the setting back to BMP before pressing Print.

Quote
It takes you 45 seconds to save a PNG picture - but it takes me 15 seconds. Is this a question of firmware - or different USB sticks?
Could easily be either :)

Quote
Also, would you please mind posting the time (and connection method) it takes to transfer & save a PNG using RUU? This might help resolve things.
6 seconds over Ethernet, from clicking Save on the file picker dialog. BMP is about the same. I don't have a long enough USB cable (or any free ports for that matter...) to test using USB. Thanks for your help :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2013, 04:25:41 am
Okay I did some more testing on this issue. Saving PNGs definitely takes > 30s, whether from the Storage menu or from the Print button after choosing PNG in storage. BMPs do seem to be quick though, around 2s.

Unfortunately I'm not around my scope for awhile so that I might check myself. I was fairly certain that PNGs took about 15 seconds to save, but I never timed the other formats. Now I'm wondering if I timed correctly - or if Rigol optimized their BMP -> PNG conversion code in 05. Any other owner want to time a PNG save to USB stick on their DS2000?

Quote
6 seconds over Ethernet, from clicking Save on the file picker dialog. BMP is about the same.

Ok, that's the same as FW 01.00.05 - so no changes there. The Rigol only transfers BMP files (RUU must do the conversion to any other image type) so the format shouldn't affect the speed in any noticeable way.

Thanks for doing the further testing  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on January 10, 2013, 08:30:42 am
On my DS2072 01.00.02 FW I get the following for saving screen shots to USB sticks:

San Disk 1GB, "Print" 56 sec, "Save" PNG from Storage menu 59 sec
Kingston 2GB, "Print" 57 sec, "Save" 60.5 sec

(Seems kind of long for a file that's only 22KBytes)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 10, 2013, 09:57:29 am
DS2202, FW 01.00.05

Kingston DataTtraveler 2.0 FAT32 4GB

PNG: Save 20 sec, Print 16 sec
BMP: Save 11 sec, Print 8 sec
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2013, 03:35:05 pm
On my DS2072 01.00.02 FW I get the following for saving screen shots to USB sticks:

San Disk 1GB, "Print" 56 sec, "Save" PNG from Storage menu 59 sec
Kingston 2GB, "Print" 57 sec, "Save" 60.5 sec

DS2202, FW 01.00.05

PNG: Save 20 sec, Print 16 sec
BMP: Save 11 sec, Print 8 sec

Wow,  so it does appear as if Rigol either optimized their code in FW 05 - or more likely, fixed a bug - since you'd have to write REALLY BAD code to produce something that would take almost 60 seconds to convert an 800x480x24 bitmap to PNG format and save it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 10, 2013, 05:43:49 pm
On my DS2072 01.00.02 FW I get the following for saving screen shots to USB sticks:

San Disk 1GB, "Print" 56 sec, "Save" PNG from Storage menu 59 sec
Kingston 2GB, "Print" 57 sec, "Save" 60.5 sec

DS2202, FW 01.00.05

PNG: Save 20 sec, Print 16 sec
BMP: Save 11 sec, Print 8 sec

Wow,  so it does appear as if Rigol either optimized their code in FW 05 - or more likely, fixed a bug - since you'd have to write REALLY BAD code to produce something that would take almost 60 seconds to convert an 800x480x24 bitmap to PNG format and save it.
How slow is the image save speed of the DS2000-series compared to other scopes (Owon, Hantek..)? I was surprised how slow these are compared to other (like Tektronix). If I recall correctly, on those more expensive models it won't take many seconds...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2013, 06:01:41 pm
How slow is the image save speed of the DS2000-series compared to other scopes (Owon, Hantek..)? I was surprised how slow these are compared to other (like Tektronix). If I recall correctly, on those more expensive models it won't take many seconds...

Well, I don't have another DSO to compare against anymore, but two things to keep in mind:

We're talking about a bitmap image - not the voltage levels of the waveform (which is way faster) - so the speed is linked to the size and depth of the display, which is 800x480x24 bits on the DS2000 series. That's 9.2Mb or 1.1MB. I don't think Tektronix has produced a DSO with a screen resolution higher than 640x480, have they (probably even smaller than that)?

The Owon is 800x600x8; which is 3.8Mb or 480kB. Apparently, aghp (a seller of Owon DSOs) claims that the fugly display on the Owon is IN FACT 24 bit color (but strangely without any anti-aliasing of any screen elements like the Rigol has). I neither know for sure - or care - but I'll say this, if it IS 24-bit color, it's the worst use I've ever seen of 24-bit.

Secondly, the Rigol has a special SCPI command which transmits that screen bitmap to the PC in about 2.3 seconds over USB. Try to do that with the Owon or Hantek.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2013, 10:34:36 pm
New version of the Rigol UltraVision Utilities uploaded... details here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg180053/#msg180053)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on January 11, 2013, 05:43:13 am
We're talking about a bitmap image - not the voltage levels of the waveform (which is way faster) - so the speed is linked to the size and depth of the display, which is 800x480x24 bits on the DS2000 series. That's 9.2Mb or 1.1MB, The Owon is 800x600x8; which is 3.8Mb or 480kB.  

Do you have any data to this argument?

Attached image is authentic OWON -> USB -> PC Transferred bitmap image. Is it 800x600x8?

You make mistakes quite often when you talk about Owon. Selectively forget the truth?
But I'm very lazy to correct all becouse - who cares.

(just random image from some old set of trig test, and not at all best)
Now, marmad, how much data have been transferred? bmp parameters show that there is 800x600x24bit.

Raw data and imagination are two different things.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 11, 2013, 06:09:18 am
You make mistakes quite often when you talk about Owon. Selectively forget the truth?
But I'm very lazy to correct all becouse - who cares.

Fine, Kari, I made an honest mistake - I assumed because of the ugly display color scheme that Owon uses - and no anti-aliasing of any screen elements - that it must be 8-bit color. So I'm wrong - big deal. It doesn't change the fact that the image on the 800x600x24 bit display on the Owon looks like a child's toy when compared to the image on the Rigol screen - because Rigol put some thought and design into theirs.

And I don't selectively forget anything - but there is clear evidence that you do. Jesus, man, get a life already. Lurking, hidden most of the time, moving around these review threads I started, trying to make a buck. Go ahead and create some original content of your own on EEVBlog instead of sponging off of mine - I mean, damn, you didn't even have the idea of buying your first SDS7102 on your own - you got that from my review.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on January 11, 2013, 08:52:17 am
Go ahead and create some original content of your own on EEVBlog instead of sponging off of mine - I mean, damn, you didn't even have the idea of buying your first SDS7102 on your own - you got that from my review.

Can not correct your mistakes or lies? Then you come angry. Grow up.

I have started with digital oscilloscopes somewhere around 1980 and after then looked world around also long time ago. Some past years also name Owon and many others.

I come here inside your thread just as I see some lie and now even more about me.
I keep silence normally but some times I see clear mistakes or lies I will correct it.
And after your answer now need correct more.

Just ask Why? Now you continue lies and I want correct also this. "I mean, damn, you didn't even have the idea of buying your first SDS7102 on your own - you got that from my review." <- you really have some problem?  If you tell that you believe or maybe... but you tell it like some kind of truth and in this point it come just to category named lie. So, if you do not know, perhaps it is better to keep it only in own mind or tell that you do not know but still you want say.

Years I have investigated new digital scopes and other test and measurement equipments. For my job, for my hobbies and also for sell some new equipments and not only second hand refurbished equipments what I have much more long time.
But this is from Finland and this you did not know (and it is just one example only):

http://mittalaitteita.lefora.com/ (http://mittalaitteita.lefora.com/)
Quote
"
22 February 2010 08:33 PM

Pitäisikö valmistautua siihen ajatukseen että laadukkaat huippumerkit tulevatkin joskus Kiinasta?

Tekway, Rigol, Owon (1) , Atten, Uni-T (lempinimi Uni-Toy).

.
.
.





(Image)
20 August 2011 02:50 PM


Ai mikä tämä on?

No se on Owonin  uusi SDS malli.  Owon on itse kehittynyt muutamassa vuodessa kapisesta moskan tuottajasta varteenotettavaksi ja nyt viimeisimpänä iskivät markkinoille aikamoisella uutuudella. (2)

(ei siis todellakaan ole se wanha parjattu Owonin DSTN sekoilu...jossain muutenkin kapisessa mallissa)"
Quote
(3)
"

3)  Some day around 2007-2008 I look littlebit more (in real life, not only www) about Owon... from this time I get idea that it is just crap bullshit and I have told it many times in Finland. 

1) Around 2009-2010 I have noted that Owon have developed and I take it to some example names what is good to follow as I tal.. What if some day we can see higher class dgital oscilloscopes may be also Chinese...

2) in some last years Owon have developed from crap to notable manufacturer.
(why I say this. I say becouse whole time I have followed it after time to time.)

But there is (random?) truth... I make finally decision to buy lot of SDS7102's (not for me but for sale and after I have here locally also fast keeped it in my hand and looked  it irl)  just around same time as you start this "famous"  Owon "Rewiev" with lot of opinions but nearly total lack of any kind of real lab tests.

If there do not come more lies I can also keep silence.
Guns are yours.

Do you overall mainly think that things what occurs around  same time have causality?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andersm on January 11, 2013, 10:27:29 am
Attached image is authentic OWON -> USB -> PC Transferred bitmap image. Is it 800x600x8?
Quick image analysis suggests the Owon is using 9-bit RGB and the Rigol 16-bit RGB. Both seem to be using less than 256 colours on screen, so it's possible they're using indexed colour modes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on January 11, 2013, 12:08:31 pm
Attached image is authentic OWON -> USB -> PC Transferred bitmap image. Is it 800x600x8?
Quick image analysis suggests the Owon is using 9-bit RGB and the Rigol 16-bit RGB. Both seem to be using less than 256 colours on screen, so it's possible they're using indexed colour modes.

Perhaps. But if think how much data is transferred, with Owon it is 1,4Mbyte and it takes time becouse also Owon USB transfer to computer or USB memory is not very fast. Is it problem or not it dpends user needs. 
Note, I do not think any kind of competite between Owon and Rigol.  I do not want pick-up Owon to this thread. Only correct wrong claim.

In my mind  Rigol DS2xxx  is one good candidate to "highly recommended" class in 1-2kEuro group.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: digsys on January 11, 2013, 12:37:25 pm
BOTH these DSOs are about the best selection for their respective NICHE markets !!
For the PRICE, the OWON pretty much cleans up every competitor in that group, with features even equalling some high end.
For the PRICE, the Rigol does well against much "higher" name brands, and has excellent tech capabilities.
BOTH have their issues though, BOTH could be just a bit better. That's the way it is and in ALL tech equipment.
You should see the forum wars in the Digital camera world, which I have been very active in from day 1. This is nothing !!
And now, possibly, Instek are joining the party with their new line-up. We'll have a new player to beat up :-)
Lets Play nice in the sandpit ...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 11, 2013, 03:16:08 pm
Can not correct your mistakes or lies? Then you come angry. Grow up.

Sure, this from a guy who comes on this thread to correct a mistake by posting:

"You make mistakes quite often when you talk about Owon. Selectively forget the truth?
But I'm very lazy to correct all becouse - who cares."

Very adult behavior.

Do you overall mainly think that things what occurs around  same time have causality?

Well, no, I think in this particular circumstance they have causality because of the private messages you sent me after my review - but I guess that involves selective memory again.

20 August 2011 02:50 PM

I'm not sure why you believe posting something written AFTER my reviews were published (and after you PMed me for more information) proves your point? In case your memory (selective?) needs jogging, you PMed me 6 times between Aug 14th and Aug 19th asking for information about the scope - my review was first published on Aug.8th.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 12, 2013, 01:37:26 am
You know your life is good if you have time to argue about oscilloscopes:)

I'm still wondering if the lost data between each screen record using the Record/Playback feature is normal to this scope, all scopes, or a bug? 
I have a question about the Record/Play back functions.  I tried using the serial decode function and found about the maximum I could fit on 1 screen is as shown in the attached picture.

Now I can zoom much further out in the horizontal scale and capture a huge chuck of data then zoom back in to read/decode it. 
I figured this would be a great use for the record and playback,  but I discovered large gaps of lost data between each recorded frame/(screen).  I'm assuming this is normal?

So i'm back to the zoom way out, grab a screen with max data points, then zoom back in to read/decode.   
Instead of scrolling with the tiny horizontal knob, WHY can't this nice big jog wheel be used to scroll quickly forward and back instead of using the little horizontal knob.  Wouldn't this be a huge improvement? Perhaps this could included in a future update.   I feel like hooking up my cordless drill to the Horizontal knob sometimes:)   
I don't have much experience in capturing/decoding data, so please let me know your thoughts and preffered methods of doing this.   
What are some of the other uses for the record/playback feature?



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 01:53:57 am
I'm still wondering if the lost data between each screen record using the Record/Playback feature is normal to this scope, all scopes, or a bug? 
Martin, I'm not quite sure why you're re-posting this old message when I answered it here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg178869/#msg178869) - unless you missed my previous response.

From your post, it doesn't sound as if you understand how the Record feature works - it captures a frame when triggered (up to the maximum wfrm/s of that timebase setting). Any data that is 'lost' is between triggers - exactly like when you run the DSO in 'Normal' trigger mode. If you specify a longer delay time between triggers, more data will be 'lost'.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 12, 2013, 03:43:15 am
Sorry,  I did miss your previous reply somehow, yet I recall reading the post before and after, but I also sometimes plug red into black and black into red by mistake.  Then again my job sometimes requires it to be done intentionally!
I do not understand exactly how the record function works, but will read your post and play around some more.  Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 04:54:09 am
Sorry,  I did miss your previous reply somehow, yet I recall reading the post before and after, but I also sometimes plug red into black and black into red by mistake.  Then again my job sometimes requires it to be done intentionally!
No problem - the mad unspooling of threads here sometimes means you miss responses ;)  And I'm sorry if I was somewhat short-tempered - it's been a tiring couple of days.

Looking back over your original post, I wonder if the Record function is really suited for your task. Part of the problem is the fact that Rigol calls it 'recording' (with what that implies from our other experiences with recording things) - while many other DSO makers call it 'segmented memory'.

This little chart I clipped from the GW-Instek manual gives a fairly clear picture as to what is happening - just insert the word 'frame' where it says 'segment':

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=36584;image)

The idea of segmented memory (Rigol's 'record') is not that you capture more continuous data - in fact, it's the opposite: that you save memory space by NOT capturing continuously - but only capturing triggered events when they happen - then waiting for the next event.

So for long continuous streams of data, it's not going to work well - you're better off using the entire 56MPts of memory in a single shot.

I hope that makes it a bit more clear  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 12, 2013, 05:09:37 am
...So for long continuous streams of data, it's not going to work well - you're better off using the entire 56MPts of memory in a single shot.

Thanks for that info.  It is much clearer now. I was missing the 'Delayed' ON in the horizontal menu which allows use of the 'Navigation Knob'.  This is great as my last scope force me to turn the little horizontal position knob 100s of turns to do the same thing. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 05:21:59 am
I was missing the 'Delayed' ON in the horizontal menu which allows use of the 'Navigation Knob'.  This is great as my last scope force me to turn the little horizontal position knob 100s of turns to do the same thing.

Yes, the big Navigation Knob is a joy to use on the Rigol. The only little interface niggle is when you are in both Delayed Sweep mode AND Playback Frames mode - the big Navigation Knob is then only for forwarding or reversing through the frames - and you're back to using only the small Horizontal Position knob for moving the window. I wish it was the other way around - even though I understand why they did it that way: because the case markings around the Nav.Knob are for 'Playback'.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2013, 06:25:09 pm
Well, does the DS2072 have anything similar to Tek Wave Inspector? It is nice to have 14Mpts acquisition memory length, but is there any possibility to search for events or place marks? It seems to me, that not. I have read the DS2072 user manual. Anyway, Owon SDS7102 also has no tools to manage the nice 2×10Mpts memory.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2013, 06:38:41 pm
Anyway, GW Instek GDS-2000A has also something like Wave Inspector. It is possible to make automated search or place marks manually. But there is no special dual knob.  :-[
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 07:32:21 pm
Well, does the DS2072 have anything similar to Tek Wave Inspector? It is nice to have 14Mpts acquisition memory length, but is there any possibility to search for events or place marks? It seems to me, that not. I have read the DS2072 user manual. Anyway, Owon SDS7102 also has no tools to manage the nice 2×10Mpts memory.
As far as I recall the Owon is just 10MPts total Corrected: Owon is 2x10MPts.

No, no markers or searching for events on the Rigol itself - but the software I've produced (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/) currently allows you to drop markers and move between them (if your Rigol is connected to a computer) - and, when the memory read bug is fixed (or a workaround is found), it will also allow you to load/save samples and events then search through deep memory for them.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2013, 08:13:47 pm
Well, it is not much important, but it seems that Owon has really 2×10MB memory. Check these specifications: http://www.owon.com.hk/SDS-en.asp (http://www.owon.com.hk/SDS-en.asp)
Quote
10M record length for each channel;
Anyway, you mentioned it here, that Owon has 10MB per channel. But if it had only 5MB per channel, it would also be enough.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 08:28:34 pm
Well, it is not much important, but it seems that Owon has really 2×10MB memory.

Sorry I forgot the details. Remember, I had the Owon for 4-5 weeks about 1.5 years ago - and I've had/tried 3 other DSOs since. Honestly, all I do remember clearly about that deep memory on the Owon was what a pain in the ass it was to look through (or easy to lose your place in) without a dual timebase zoom window.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 07:26:51 pm
Apparently, drieg has being using the bugs/problems list (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659) (compiled from the fine bug reporting done by the users in this thread ;) ) to communicate to Rigol about  the problems we've found.

It appears they've confirmed most of the bugs/problems now (or stated they aren't bugs) - although they're still trying to verify one or two of them, but what I found interesting - and I thought others might as well - is the response to #12 (Rigol response in italics):

12) A bug confined to the menu selection of Channel 1 = ON and Trigger = External keeps the sample rate stuck at 1G SA/s (instead of raising to 2G Sa/s ? as it should be). The bug does not affect the sample rate when selecting CH1/EXT trigger using SCPI commands. Also, if the DSO is booted up with CH1/EXT trigger selected, the correct sample rate of 2G Sa/s is enabled.

I asked R&D about this situation, it is not a bug because DS4 and DS6 use analog trigger so if we turn off CH1,CH3 ,other channels can go to the Max. sample rate, but DS2000 use digital trigger, the advance of digital trigger is the signal displayed on screen stably and no offset compared with analog trigger .In digital trigger ,even we turn off CH1 ,but actually it still work in the background ,so the MaX. sample rate for CH2 and Ext IS 1G Sa/s .

Interesting, yes? Although it doesn't explain why then the sample rate reported at the top of the screen is still incorrect sometimes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 08:56:33 pm
Hi all.. I've have had a quick scan through this thread but didn't see anything regarding the issue I've got here..  I just got my DS2072 last week but only today noticed that when I set the screen saver to any given time, It doesn't activate at all. Its supposed to show the Rigol screen is it not?

I've updated the FW from 1.00.01 to 1.00.00.05 (which I can only tell from plugging a USB with the latest version on it, in) however still no go as regards the screen saver issue.

Anyone else with the same thing?

Thank you
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 13, 2013, 09:20:06 pm
when I set the screen saver to any given time, It doesn't activate at all. Thank you
DS2072 FW1.00.02
Yep, I don't get a screen saver time-out to Rigol Screen,, tried 1min, 2 min
 But then again with Trial Options, I shut it Off when not in use
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 09:24:55 pm
Yep, I don't get a screen saver time-out to Rigol Screen,, tried 1min, 2 min
 But then again with Trial Options, I shut it Off when not in use

Ah ok, thanks. That's good to know.

I guess it seems that Rigol have got quite a few things to fix in the next FW update then :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 09:58:49 pm
I just got my DS2072 last week but only today noticed that when I set the screen saver to any given time, It doesn't activate at all. Its supposed to show the Rigol screen is it not?

The screen saver works fine for me - I've used it many times (FW 01.00.05).

Quote
I've updated the FW from 1.00.01 to 1.00.00.05 (which I can only tell from plugging a USB with the latest version on it, in) however still no go as regards the screen saver issue.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this? Do you mean writing the scope variables to a file? You can get detailed version info by following these instructions:
Go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger
Then press the [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] buttons one after another quickly.
Then check additional info under System -> System Info.
To escape from this mode, press again [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] while inside Trigger menu
- or reboot the scope.

Perhaps it's a bug in 01.00.02 - and you haven't properly upgraded yet? BTW, as far as I know, there haven't been any scopes delivered with 01.00.01 - so I think you started with (or still have) 01.00.02.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:13:48 pm
Whether or not the screen saver is activated might also be affected by the mode or state that the DSO is currently running in (although, ideally, it shouldn't be). I've never noticed it NOT working for me, but sometimes I've been using it (during long stretches of programming for the scope) and other times not.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 10:21:25 pm
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this? Do you mean writing the scope variables to a file? You can get detailed version info by following these instructions:
Go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger
Then press the [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] buttons one after another quickly.
Then check additional info under System -> System Info.
To escape from this mode, press again [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] while inside Trigger menu
- or reboot the scope.

Perhaps it's a bug in 01.00.02 - and you haven't properly upgraded yet? BTW, as far as I know, there haven't been any scopes delivered with 01.00.01 - so I think you started (or still have) 01.00.02.

My appologies.. The FW version I have is 00.00.01 hardware version 1.0.

Your right marmad.. I must not have completed the upgrad to the FW.. However when I insert the USB stick with FW v01.00.05 on it, it says 'A same firmware detected, Upgrade'?

If I choose 'YES' it runs through it's routine but doesn't upgrade. I have also tried the start-up routine were you have to hit the 'HELP' button just after pressing the 'ON' button. That also runs through the correct routine, but doesn't actually update the FW.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/orbiter/IMAG0522_zps61d7b8b9.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/orbiter/IMAG0518_zpseef2be75.jpg)

Any advise please?

Thank you
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:28:47 pm
Your right marmad.. I must not have completed the upgrad to the FW.. However when I insert the USB stick with FW v01.00.05 on it, it says 'A same firmware detected, Upgrade'?

@orbiter: I'm not sure you're actually entering the 'special' mode to get to the detailed system info. After going through the steps in the previous post, are you seeing a screen like this?

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 10:30:53 pm
Your right marmad.. I must not have completed the upgrad to the FW.. However when I insert the USB stick with FW v01.00.05 on it, it says 'A same firmware detected, Upgrade'?

@orbiter: I'm not sure you're actually entering the 'special' mode to get to the detailed system info. After going through the steps in the previous post, are you seeing a screen like this?

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

Nope.. I'll try again..

Thank you
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:33:44 pm
  Is the External Trigger also digital , with separate ADIC, back to the teardown???
  How can we test ?
 

@Teneyes: In the message from Rigol which I posted, Rigol says that the External Trigger is digital - so it must be sampled - and that's why the sample rate is cut in half when using it. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to test. Why the top of the screen sometimes shows 2 GSa/S and sometimes 1 GSa/s? I think it's a bug in the display logic.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 10:35:15 pm
I have no additional info come up marmad, only the same info that is shown in my second picture.

EDIT:... Do I need to upgrade to 00.00.02 first or something?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:42:59 pm
I have no additional info come up marmad, only the same info that is shown in my second picture.

EDIT:... Do I need to upgrade to 00.00.02 first or something?

No, you just need to press buttons faster :)  After selecting Trigger Menu, then Edge trigger, you must press the following 4 buttons VERY QUICKLY: right-side menu button #7, then #6, then #7, then Utilty button --- then if you press System -> System Info and DON'T see detailed info == start again, and press those 4 buttons even faster.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:50:41 pm
Obviously, one of the reasons for being on the Trigger menu when using this 'special' key sequence is because there are no menu items assigned to the 6th and 7th menu buttons in this particular menu - so you aren't actually choosing anything - and causing the scope to start running some routine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 11:03:02 pm
Well here is display of 138Mhz on Chan 1 , with External Trigger and looks like 10 Dots in 5ns for 1 sample every 0.5 ns, and 2GSa/s , 

@Teneyes: I'm travelling - so I'm not near my scope for testing - but could you please try this three more times with the following conditions:

Change to Channel2 and External Trigger - then run the same test.
Then just turn off DSO and reboot - then run the test again.
The change again to Channel1 and External Trigger - and run it one last time.
See if you get the same results every time - or if one time it drops to 5 points per division.

Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 11:07:54 pm
OK... I'm an idiot... I looked in the manual for reference to the #7, #6, #7 buttons and those are indicated as AUTO & CLEAR. Those are the ones I was pressing :o

Anyway.. Thanks to you guys, I now have the screen below :) and what looks like FW v00.05..

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/orbiter/IMAG0523_zpsf8c8243c.jpg)

However now I still have the initial problem.. No screensaver :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 11:16:21 pm
However now I still have the initial problem.. No screensaver :(

Which is odd - since as I mentioned, it seems to work fine for me. The problem is I'm travelling and not near my scope to check my setup. Can someone else reading this with 01.00.05 run a quick test of the screen-saver on their Rigol?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 13, 2013, 11:18:36 pm
Can someone else reading this with 01.00.05 run a quick test of the screen-saver on their Rigol?

I can do it, but not before tomorrow.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 11:20:41 pm
No worries, there's no rush. Thanks for the assistance guys.

Cheers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 11:26:09 pm
I can do it, but not before tomorrow.

Thanks, EV. BTW, I'm just about to upload a bug-fix for RUU (version 1.51) for you. I found one line of code with a TypeConversion mistake. When you get a chance, please download the new version, switch your Windows settings back to ',' for decimal point and try to enter 'Zoom Markers'. I think it should work fine for you now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 12:07:06 am
Just uploaded a minor bug fix for the Rigol UltraVision Utilities (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575). This version now allows dropping markers while using the Delayed Sweep (Zoom Window) on the Rigol - and jumping between them. More features to come when I'm back at my studio (and my DSO) in 2 weeks.

I still haven't heard from any DS4000 (or, god forbid, DS6000) owners if the software works for them. I'd love to know.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 02:27:01 am
For the need of  an External trigger and 2GSa/s ,
It is best to use Chan 2 and External, this is a Work around to avoid having to power-off and on for uses of Chan 1 and external Trigger .

But how do you know for sure it's 2GSa/s? Did you check the number of samples?

According to the Rigol guy: "In digital trigger ,even we turn off CH1 ,but actually it still work in the background ,so the MaX. sample rate for CH2 and Ext IS 1G Sa/s ."

And what kind of signal are you using for the External Trigger?

Also according to the Rigol guy, one of the advantages of the digital trigger is no offset.

Why does it seem you have no offset in the first image - and 4ns in the second?
Nevermind this last one - I see that the first is labelled CH2 triggered.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 03:25:30 am
Hmm... I feel our communication is not working very well.

Yes no offset if using Chan 1 and/or Chan 2 as trigger, (1GSa)

The offset I (and the Rigol guy) was talking about is on the External (Digital) Trigger - nothing to do with channel triggering. He claims no offset on External Trigger.

Go back to old msg for Dots at display of 2GSa/s and set to External

Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't see any image of Channel 2 & Ext. Trigger as dots. He says Channel 2 & External Trigger = 1 GSa/s. I'm trying to discover if what he says is correct or false.

Quote
Does someone have 2 output function gen with phase offset to test
mmm I'm thinking of DG3062

Wouldn't just a FG with Sync output to External Trigger work to measure offset?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 06:34:47 am
DS2202 FW1.00.05

Screen saver works!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 06:45:36 am


 BTW, I'm just about to upload a bug-fix for RUU (version 1.51) for you. I found one line of code with a TypeConversion mistake. When you get a chance, please download the new version, switch your Windows settings back to ',' for decimal point and try to enter 'Zoom Markers'. I think it should work fine for you now.

Yes, it works now.
Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 07:30:22 am
OK to more complete here are #1  Chan1 with EXT , dots, and Chan 2 with Ext and Dots

Thanks for that, Teneyes! Strange, the Rigol guy doesn't seem to be correct with what he said - so I think he misunderstood our big report. I will have send drieg another message to try to clarify this bug for Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 07:32:05 am
Yes, it works now.
Thanks!

Good to hear it, EV. Thanks for checking.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 09:37:23 am
No worries, there's no rush. Thanks for the assistance guys.

Screen saver works! FW 1.00.05 DS2202

Edit: New animated gif
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 04:01:54 pm
Screen saver works! FW 1.00.05 DS2202

@EV: Thanks for checking. Is it possible we could get one other owner with a DS2072 and FW 01.00.05 to check their screen saver? Sparky? I can't imagine that it has anything to do with model number, but it might be good to be sure.

However now I still have the initial problem.. No screensaver :(

@Orbiter: Since two others with the same firmware as you have it working, time to try various settings on the scope to see which one might affect it. I'd start with a 'reset' to default settings (I can't remember in which menu that is located on the DSO - but I know it's there) - then try the screen saver again first before altering anything. Then - with screen saver set to time out in 1 minute, I'd try changing some of the more obvious settings/options and give it a minute to timeout.

BTW, do you have any trial or permanent options running? Both EV and I have at least one permanent option - which, theoretically, might make a difference. That's another reason it would be good to hear from another DS2072/FW 01.00.05 user.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 14, 2013, 04:32:05 pm
Is it possible we could get one other owner with a DS2072 and FW 01.00.05 to check their screen saver? Sparky?

DS2072 with FW 01.00.05:
Screen saver works for me too!  (Screen saver 'type' is set to "Default" (grayed out)).

Sorry for my lack of input recently --- a few too many things on my desk right now...don't know how you do it marmad, even on travel!

I can try testing the 2G Sa/s on both Ch 1 and Ch 2 with ext. trigger, as there are still questions on that issue...  I have a DG4062 near by if we need two signals with phase offset.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 05:19:31 pm
I can try testing the 2G Sa/s on both Ch 1 and Ch 2 with ext. trigger, as there are still questions on that issue...  I have a DG4062 near by if we need two signals with phase offset.

Great! There is clearly a misunderstanding about our bug report vs. what Rigol thinks the problem is/isn't.

If you could just check (using dots) what the real sample rate is when the DSO displays 1 GSa/s after choosing CH1 & Ext. Trigger - then reboot and check it again after it displays 2 GSa/s - we would know for sure if it was an actual sample rate setting bug - or a display of sample rate bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 14, 2013, 05:59:08 pm
I can try testing the 2G Sa/s on both Ch 1 and Ch 2 with ext. trigger, as there are still questions on that issue...  I have a DG4062 near by if we need two signals with phase offset.

Great! There is clearly a misunderstanding about our bug report vs. what Rigol thinks the problem is/isn't.

If you could just check (using dots) what the real sample rate is when the DSO displays 1 GSa/s after choosing CH1 & Ext. Trigger - then reboot and check it again after it displays 2 GSa/s - we would know for sure if it was an actual sample rate setting bug - or a display of sample rate bug.

Test done!  Seems the 2G Sa/s is the real deal when using Ext trigger (after reboot)!  So, display on the scope is correct, and it is indeed bug in the firmware which requires reboot of the scope to get this 2G S/s.

I input a 20MHz sine wave to Ch 1, and first test with internal trigger, then external trigger (before and after reboot).  Please see pics attached!  (Sorry, I don't see how to put pics inline...)

Let's forward this clarified bug report to Rigol via our friend drieg!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 06:08:59 pm
Test done!  Seems the 2G Sa/s is the real deal when using Ext trigger (after reboot)!  So, display on the scope is correct, and it is indeed bug in the firmware which requires reboot of the scope to get this 2G S/s.

Thanks, Sparky. I've d/led your .pngs and will forward them on with explanation to drieg to pass on to Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 06:31:18 pm
All of our other bugs have been confirmed (or denied that they were bugs - in the case of the clear waveform first 'design choice') by Rigol - except the following:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 07:03:13 pm
Let's forward this clarified bug report to Rigol via our friend drieg!

Here are the same pictures from my scope DS2202, which Sparky sent :
Title: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: sanka on January 14, 2013, 08:14:57 pm
Thanks to the excellent review by marmad, and everyone's contribution to this thread, I have ordered a DS2072 which arrives in two days. I am looking forward to it.

From the discussions here, it appears that I should upgrade to firmware 1.00.05 when the unit arrives (assuming it is not already at that level). Can someone please let me know how I would go about getting the firmware?

I am in California. I ordered the scope from tequipment.net. Looking at the UPS tracking information, it looks like this unit is being drop shipped from Rigol NA in Ohio.

Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 14, 2013, 08:20:29 pm
Here are the same pictures from my scope DS2202, which Sparky sent :

Excellent!  So now we have confirmed this bug for both DS2072 and DS2202!  I guess single firmware fix will resolve the problem for all DS2000 series.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chalky on January 14, 2013, 08:21:31 pm
Yes, thanks also from me to Marmad and others.  It is your efforts, advice, opinions, discussions, disagreements etc. that help others like me with what is for some of us a significant purchasing decision.  Much appreciated, thank you.  Have bought my DS2072 from Emona, found them very friendly and helpful so far.  Other scope vendors haven't bothered replying to my sales enquiries.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: Sparky on January 14, 2013, 08:42:24 pm
From the discussions here, it appears that I should upgrade to firmware 1.00.05 when the unit arrives (assuming it is not already at that level). Can someone please let me know how I would go about getting the firmware?

Welcome!

I am in SoCal, and ordered from tequipment.net also.  I did not get the firmware update from Rigol NA or Tequipment.net (even though I asked them for it).  Instead, a forum member provided it to me, and it has since been kindly uploaded by another member.  See this post in marmad's software tips and tricks thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175707/#msg175707 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175707/#msg175707)

Be sure to read the warnings and follow instructions upgrading the firmware --- only do upgrade during BOOT!  Search this thread and the above thread for details on the procedure.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 08:44:11 pm
Excellent!  So now we have confirmed this bug for both DS2072 and DS2202!  I guess single firmware fix will resolve the problem for all DS2000 series.

@ Sparky and Narmad

Here is more information about this bug:

If I stop the scope when changing from ch1 trigger to external trigger 2 GSa/s does not change to 1 GSa/s. When pressing run again it keeps still at 2 GSa/s. So there is no need to restart the scope.

If scope is not stopped 2 GSa/s changes to 1 GSa/s, when you move trigger to ch2 and keeps there also at external trigger. So it looks that going through ch2 trigger does this bug, if scope is not stopped.

I hope you understand what I am telling.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 09:56:44 pm
Be sure to read the warnings and follow instructions upgrading the firmware --- only do upgrade during BOOT!  Search this thread and the above thread for details on the procedure.

I've (finally) updated the first post in this thread to include both the instructions for getting detailed version info, as well as how to safely upgrade from 02 to 05. So we can now just point people to there.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 10:00:12 pm
It is good that there is no trigger level line on the trace as the trigger level is unrelated to the displayed  signal,  but it this test by connectting to the same point , we know they are the same and can realize the offset.

You can also look at the displayed voltage level of External Trigger at the top right corner of the screen  ;)
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 10:12:05 pm
From the discussions here, it appears that I should upgrade to firmware 1.00.05 when the unit arrives (assuming it is not already at that level).
@sanka (and other prospective new owners): First off - welcome to the party ;D Us early adopters gotta stick together!

Secondly: I had been constantly recommending people to upgrade to FW 05 asap - because of the erroneous memory write problems which MIGHT occur while using FW 02. But since the discovery of the Memory Read bug in FW 05 (Software can't read sample memory from scope: #9 in our compiled list of bugs in the first post of this thread) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659), I would just urge you to think a moment before upgrading if you use (or want to use fairly soon) MATLAB, LabVIEW, or any other third party software which needs to read the sample memory for processing.

If that's not an issue for you, then upgrading is probably the best bet. If you do decide to stay with FW 02. I would refrain from using the internal memory to save setups, reference waveforms, files, etc - and stick to using an external USB stick (or RUU  :) ).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 10:42:05 pm
BTW, if someone feels up to doing a little research (which is needed for RUU and other prospective processing software), maybe they can help with the following:

I had started to write a graphics routine for displaying the Rigol's waveforms real-time (not, of course, at 50k per second  ;) but something reasonably speedy) before I had to leave on my current travels, but I still hadn't cracked the purpose behind the 1400 bytes Rigol uses per channel for display memory.

The actual screen display for the waveforms is 700x400 pixels, so I thought perhaps each 2 bytes is a 16-bit word for either 12-bit ADC values (high-res mode) - or for unscaled 400 vertical points - or perhaps for intensity grading - but if any of those are the case, then I don't understand why the DSO saves them as 1400 separate voltages when it creates a CSV file.

Anyway, I sent an email to drieg earlier today (since I know he's working on decoding the new WFM format Rigol uses for the UltraVision DSOs) but he didn't know either.

It wouldn't be so hard to figure out with a little testing: you can save a waveform file, modify a byte or two with a bin/hex editor, and then reload them into the scope and see what they produce on the display - I just didn't find the time before I left - but I need to figure it out to finish RUU's display of waveforms. Anyone interested in poking around? It will be 2 more weeks until I'm back near my Rigol  :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 08:01:54 am
DS2072 FW 1.00.02 
Can someone  please verify .

DS2202 FW 1.00.05

If the scope is triggering to the rising edge the horizontal offset is very small. When triggering to the falling edge there is horizontal offset which is dependent on the frequency, 4 ns at 10 MHz and 2 ns at 20 MHz. Look at pictures.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 15, 2013, 08:17:07 am
Hi EV, I only have DS2072 (until someone can tell me how to unlock it  >:D) without 2ns timebase, but I think the results are useful anyway. I'm not seeing the same effect on DS2072 FW 1.00.02. See the pics. These captures are with AA on, normal acq mode, I've tried other settings and it doesn't seem to make a difference.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 08:22:35 am
Hi EV, I only have DS2072 (until someone can tell me how to unlock it  >:D) without 2ns timebase, but I think the results are useful anyway. I'm not seeing the same effect on DS2072 FW 1.00.02. See the pics. These captures are with AA on, normal acq mode, I've tried other settings and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Are you using external triggering? It can not be seen from the pictures. Look at Teneyes post earlier. It is on 2 pictures, you have triggered to ch1 not external!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on January 15, 2013, 08:23:42 am
I've been playing with the waveform file and getting pretty much nowhere.  I saved a waveform that says it has 1400 pts (50ns/div, 2GSa/s).  The file is 22,376 bytes long and has a bunch of stuff that makes no sense to me.  But if I read the data in as 8-bit bytes I find the trace stuck on the very end as two interlaced 728 point traces (yes it's 728, not 700).  By interlaced I mean one trace followed by 4 bytes then a second trace.  When I stick the two traces together (i.e. deinterlace them) it almost exactly matches the screen capture of the waveform.  I have no clue what this means, but the data I was able to find was straight 8-bit bytes.  (That doesn't mean that other versions of the data aren't hiding elsewhere in the long file.) 

Also, if you save data taken in Hires mode to CSV, the results in the CSV file are quantized at 8-bit (as I mentioned in my original post).  (The Hires mode does give enhanced resolution on the scope screen readout.)

One bug I found (or re-found actually) on my scope (FW 00.00.01.00.02): if I try to save waveforms to a USB stick without first saving a screen capture using the print button, my scope hangs and must be powered down.  If I save a screen capture first, after each powerup, then saving waveforms and CSV work fine.  Tested two USB sticks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2013, 08:26:45 am
Hi EV, I only have DS2072 (until someone can tell me how to unlock it  >:D) without 2ns timebase, but I think the results are useful anyway. I'm not seeing the same effect on DS2072 FW 1.00.02. See the pics. These captures are with AA on, normal acq mode, I've tried other settings and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Your tests are with CH1 as the (internal) trigger, so this is not a direct comparison.  I think everyone is getting normal results like you show for internal trigger.  The test proposed by Teneyes is to use external trigger, which is how EV has done the test.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 15, 2013, 08:44:16 am
Your tests are with CH1 as the (internal) trigger, so this is not a direct comparison.  I think everyone is getting normal results like you show for internal trigger.  The test proposed by Teneyes is to use external trigger, which is how EV has done the test.
Ugh, of course you're right. Serves me right for not re-reading the thread I was trying to follow at work...

I have re-done the test can confirm I'm seeing a relatively similar effect, but my delays seem longer at 20MHz. The test is not valid though, as I don't have two matched length BNC cables to do the ext. trig. test and it is few ns per foot.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 09:31:36 am
I have re-done the test can confirm I'm seeing a relatively similar effect, but my delays seem longer at 20MHz. The test is not valid though, as I don't have two matched length BNC cables to do the ext. trig. test and it is few ns per foot.

I calibrated the scope and there is a little change to the results. With 10 MHz signal the horizontal offset to left is about 1 ns with rising edge and 5 ns with falling edge on both channels.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 15, 2013, 09:55:49 am
I've been playing with the waveform file and getting pretty much nowhere.

TP go to the software thread to check out my testing

One bug I found (or re-found actually) on my scope (FW 00.00.01.00.02): if I try to save waveforms to a USB stick without first saving a screen capture using the print button, my scope
hangs and must be powered down.  If I save a screen capture first, after each powerup, then saving waveforms and CSV work fine.  Tested two USB sticks.

 ds2072 fw1.00.02
I have found that starting the DSO with a stick in helps
I can remove and replace many times.
If no USB stick at start , I get hangs when I remove the stick
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 01:44:36 pm
Do you think normal triggering would change anything?
Do you think vector interpolation is doing anything ( use DOts maybe)
any at higher 100Mhz

To two first answer is no. With 10 MHz 5 ns, 20 ns 2.5 ns.....100 MHz 0.5 ns. It depend on the frequency as I told earlier.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 15, 2013, 02:21:14 pm
DS2072 FW 1.00.02

Here is a nice rise time with a fast clean Pulse ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 03:41:30 pm
DS2072 FW 1.00.02

Here is a nice rise time with a fast clean Pulse ;D ;D ;D
Put the rise time measurement on from left of the window, so we can see what it is.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2013, 04:04:51 pm
I've been playing with the waveform file and getting pretty much nowhere.  I saved a waveform that says it has 1400 pts (50ns/div, 2GSa/s).  The file is 22,376 bytes long and has a bunch of stuff that makes no sense to me.  But if I read the data in as 8-bit bytes I find the trace stuck on the very end as two interlaced 728 point traces (yes it's 728, not 700).  By interlaced I mean one trace followed by 4 bytes then a second trace.  When I stick the two traces together (i.e. deinterlace them) it almost exactly matches the screen capture of the waveform.  I have no clue what this means, but the data I was able to find was straight 8-bit bytes.  (That doesn't mean that other versions of the data aren't hiding elsewhere in the long file.) 

@TP: Thanks for your input. Drieg is decoding the WFM output and he told me that they interleave the data sometimes (I think when single channel saved?). But I'm actually most interested in the display data (not sample memory data saved in WFM files) and I'm not sure the formats are identical. As mentioned before, when you ask the scope for the display memory, It ALWAYS gives you 1400 points per channel - even if the "real" sampled number of points for the screen size is 140 or 56. So what exactly do those 1400 points correspond to? I suspect that a TRC file is perhaps closer to the display memory than the sample memory - but being away from my Rigol means I can't look into it. If someone wants to send me a WFM and TRC file made from the identical single cycle square wave which fills the screen - and another two made from the identical zero voltage input, I could do some comparison here.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2013, 04:27:49 pm
DS2072 FW 1.00.02
Here is a nice rise time with a fast clean Pulse ;D ;D ;D

Wow!  :)  The rise-time is about 1ns!  How did you generate this pulse? Rise times on my signal generator are about 10-12ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2013, 04:30:06 pm
Wow!  :)  The rise-time is about 1ns!  How did you generate this pulse? Rise times on my signal generator are about 10-12ns.

I'm guessing he modified the saved file and re-loaded it  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2013, 04:59:19 pm
Wow!  :)  The rise-time is about 1ns!  How did you generate this pulse? Rise times on my signal generator are about 10-12ns.
I'm guessing he modified the saved file and re-loaded it  :)

Owww! ;D  Soon will not know to trust screenshots!! haha
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 15, 2013, 05:11:03 pm
It's A JOKE

 The lines are way tooo Perfect

 Here is the best rise time I think given that the dots are interpolated  by the DSO with Sin(X)maybe 1 dot at middle is better and rounding above 90% .
Also see the dots to make the vector display

I Learnt a lot and it was fun, . just a geek at heart
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2013, 06:07:02 pm
It's A JOKE

 The lines are way tooo Perfect

 Here is the best rise time I think given that the dots are interpolated  by the DSO with Sin(X)maybe 1 dot at middle is better and rounding above 90% .
Also see the dots to make the vector display

I Learnt a lot and it was fun, . just a geek at heart

Hahaha :)  Good job!  Yes, I bet you had fun with it!

It's interesting to see the DSOs interpolation of the individual data points.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: sanka on January 16, 2013, 07:52:38 pm
[...]
See this post in marmad's software tips and tricks thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175707/#msg175707 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175707/#msg175707)

Be sure to read the warnings and follow instructions upgrading the firmware --- only do upgrade during BOOT!  Search this thread and the above thread for details on the procedure.

Thanks, Sparky. It worked very well. I did the upgrade upon the very first power up after taking the scope out of the box. System Information page shows s/w version 00.00.01.00.05, with h/w version 1.0.1.0.0.

I guess the upgrade completed when the CH 1 button stopped blinking and all the front panel lights came on steady. I waited a long time to see if some screen update might happen. After staring at the steady lights and the blank screen for some 20 minutes, I lost patience, turned off the power, took out the USB stick, powered it back on, and found that everything was fine!

Now, it is time to play :-) Thanks again for pointing me to the right posts.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2013, 07:56:11 pm
I guess the upgrade completed when the CH 1 button stopped blinking and all the front panel lights came on steady. I waited a long time to see if some screen update might happen. After staring at the steady lights and the blank screen for some 20 minutes, I lost patience, turned off the power, took out the USB stick, powered it back on, and found that everything was fine!

Hmm...not completely sure it worked correctly. Do you still have your trial options? If not, it went wrong - if so, things are fine.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: sanka on January 16, 2013, 07:59:43 pm
[...] since the discovery of the Memory Read bug in FW 05 (Software can't read sample memory from scope: #9 in our compiled list of bugs in the first post of this thread) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659), I would just urge you to think a moment before upgrading if you use (or want to use fairly soon) MATLAB, LabVIEW, or any other third party software which needs to read the sample memory for processing.
[...]
Thanks for the warning, Marmad. I did the 01.00.05 upgrade as I don't plan on using third party software any time soon.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: sanka on January 16, 2013, 08:17:39 pm
I guess the upgrade completed when the CH 1 button stopped blinking and all the front panel lights came on steady. I waited a long time to see if some screen update might happen. After staring at the steady lights and the blank screen for some 20 minutes, I lost patience, turned off the power, took out the USB stick, powered it back on, and found that everything was fine!

Hmm...not completely sure it worked correctly. Do you still have your trial options? If not, it went wrong - if so, things are fine.

Hi Marmad,
Upon boot, Installed Options screen shows three categories of options - TRIGGER, DECODE, and MEM_DEPTH - with a few sub options under them. The Time Left column shows 2122Minute for all rows. Is that a happy scope?

btw, I read in another post here that Self Calibration takes away the trial options. Is that true with 1.0.5 too? Should I refrain from calibrating until after I have played with the trial options?
Thanks
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2013, 08:31:49 pm
...shows 2122Minute for all rows. Is that a happy scope?

All is well  :)

Quote
btw, I read in another post here that Self Calibration takes away the trial options. Is that true with 1.0.5 too? Should I refrain from calibrating until after I have played with the trial options?

Yes, do NOT do self-cal! When you are down to your last hour of trial options, PM me for instructions to keep trial options going. As long as you don't let them expire, it seems as if you can keep them going, perhaps indefinitely.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 16, 2013, 09:13:26 pm
@EV: Thanks for checking. Is it possible we could get one other owner with a DS2072 and FW 01.00.05 to check their screen saver? Sparky? I can't imagine that it has anything to do with model number, but it might be good to be sure.

However now I still have the initial problem.. No screensaver :(

@Orbiter: Since two others with the same firmware as you have it working, time to try various settings on the scope to see which one might affect it. I'd start with a 'reset' to default settings (I can't remember in which menu that is located on the DSO - but I know it's there) - then try the screen saver again first before altering anything. Then - with screen saver set to time out in 1 minute, I'd try changing some of the more obvious settings/options and give it a minute to timeout.

BTW, do you have any trial or permanent options running? Both EV and I have at least one permanent option - which, theoretically, might make a difference. That's another reason it would be good to hear from another DS2072/FW 01.00.05 user.

Apologies for not replying sooner guys, only just got back to checking the forum.

Thanks marmad, EV and sparky for checking the screensaver mode for me  :-+

Unfortunately my screensaver is still not operational :(  I don't have any permanent options marmad, but would love to get hold of the advanced trigger some time. I do still have around 300 minutes of all the trial options available though.

Thanks again guys.

EDIT:..   OK an update..

Just forwarded the clock on the scope and re-calibrated it afterwards.. Guess what? I now have a screen screen saver :)  However now I've lost my trials :(
Oh-well can't have everything. Wonder if they'll come back if I reverse the clock  :-/O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sanka on January 16, 2013, 11:28:48 pm
EDIT:..   OK an update..
Just forwarded the clock on the scope and re-calibrated it afterwards.. Guess what? I now have a screen screen saver :)  However now I've lost my trials :(

Well, take this with a grain of salt as I have had the scope for just a couple of hours. But here is what I found with my DS2072 running 01.00.05 f/w.

Screen saver doesn't activate.

I tried under two conditions - 1. With the clock set to Beijing time (or so it seemed) as it came from the factory, and 2. With the clock set back to my local time (Pacific Standard Time).

I also did a reset of settings to default values using the Storage->Default menu. No dice!

I didn't play around with any other settings. I also don't have any purchased options. Just trial options. The time left in trial options were unaffected by my system clock settings.

Thanks

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 17, 2013, 01:59:24 am
Screen saver doesn't activate.
I tried under two conditions - 1. With the clock set to Beijing time (or so it seemed) as it came from the factory, and 2. With the clock set back to my local time (Pacific Standard Time).

Well, clearly there is some kind of screen saver bug, but since at least two of us with 01.00.05 report them working - it must be caused by some combination (or lack of) settings, options, etc. Not really sure how we can figure out the parameters of it. I don't remember them ever NOT working, but I actually didn't start using them until I had owned the scope for awhile and started doing programming for it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sanka on January 17, 2013, 05:28:38 am
[...]
Well, clearly there is some kind of screen saver bug,
[...]
For what it is worth, I filed a report at http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/. (http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/.)  I want to see how responsive they are.

Quote
[...]
but since at least two of us with 01.00.05 report them working - it must be caused by some combination (or lack of) settings, options, etc. Not really sure how we can figure out the parameters of it.
[...]
I should have some time next week to play with and learn the scope a little bit. I'll tweak some settings and report back if screensaver starts to work.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 17, 2013, 11:06:52 pm

It's interesting to see the DSOs interpolation of the individual data points.
@ Sparky
Here are displays showing how the DS2072 interpolates 1 Sample off line ,vectors and dots

Then displays of 2 Samples in a row off line, vectors and dots
Note how 2 samples will make the trace going more offline

These are very unlikely to occur unless a weird event happens, IE a Neutrino hits the ADC
It is more to show the interpolation function

For Sin(x)x See these discussions:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sin(x)x-interpolation-and-digital-filters-in-oscilloscopes/#top (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sin(x)x-interpolation-and-digital-filters-in-oscilloscopes/#top)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/)
[/quote]
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 17, 2013, 11:28:46 pm
It's interesting to see the DSOs interpolation of the individual data points.
@ Sparky
Here are displays showing how the DS2072 interpolates 1 Sample off line ,vectors and dots

Then displays of 2 Samples in a row off line, vectors and dots
Note how 2 samples will make the trace going more offline

These are very unlike to occur unless a weird event happens, IE a Neutrino hits the ADC
It is more to show the interpolation function

@Teneyes  --- AWESOME!!  THANKS!!  :D
That's very exciting to see --- I had no idea DSO was doing truncated sinc interpolation of the data points when choosing "vectors" over "dots".  Until I saw your first result showing the interpolation, I thought DSO just used linear interpolation when choosing vectors!

I have often wondered why is it called "Vectors"?  Clearly it is not "join the dots" mode, so calling it "Lines" or "Linear" or similar would be misleading.  Can anyone tell us, where the name "Vectors" has originated from?  Perhaps they should call it "Sinc"!

Would be nice if there was a way to change the interpolation function (just a few coefficients in memory...) because, for example, it's easy to imagine a scenario in which all data points should be positive, and so linear interpolation might be more appropriate (least some of our data ends up with negative values which would be an artifact of e.g. sinc interpolation).

Thanks again Teneyes!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 18, 2013, 09:58:30 am
Here are some risetime measurements with my with DS2202. Signals (10 MHz) are from Rigol DG4162 generator. Generators rise time measured with fast oscilloscope is <1.4 ns . Signals are connected to scope with Rigol feed thru 50 ohm terminator.

In first picture signal is from sync output connector. Average rise time is 1.72 ns.
It gives bandwidth 350 / 1.72  = 205 MHz to scope.

In second picture is signal from generators output connector. Its average rise time is 4.1 ns. It is much slower than with signal from sync output.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Lizerd on January 18, 2013, 10:29:31 am
Here you have another one who found this thread and decided to buy a DS2072.
Had a Instek before and the difference is huge.

No finally i gone trough the whole thread here :)
and wow what an effort  :-+

I did register to be able to comment and contribute  :)

Where do i find the Firmware updates ?

I have the FW 00.00.01

I cant see that that anyone else has mentioned it, but when i start-up the unit with a USB stick inserted, the unit can not find the momorystick at all. i have to power down and restart without the memorystick, and insert it when the unit is running to be able to use the memorystick.

also another thing that annoys me.
in Diskmanger there is no return arrow like in the other function boxes.
Storage->DiskManager
It's not a big deal , but it is some thing i noticed.

I hope USB-Boot is fixed in the newer FW, i almost always have i memory stick in the scope.

Many thanks for the good reading  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 18, 2013, 11:03:34 am

Where do i find the Firmware updates ?

You can find it here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/15/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/15/)

It is posted by studio25.

Be careful not to loose trial options! It must be installed when booting the scope. Read instructions here in the forum. You can find the instructions on the first post of this thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 18, 2013, 07:58:14 pm
For Sin(x)x See these discussions:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sin(x)x-interpolation-and-digital-filters-in-oscilloscopes/#top (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sin(x)x-interpolation-and-digital-filters-in-oscilloscopes/#top)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/)

Thanks for pointing this out Teneyes! Had a quick look --- interesting stuff!  I will read it closely a bit later :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 18, 2013, 09:11:00 pm
Hi guys.. Think I've found another small issue with the menu display time (FW 01.00.05)

With trial options still enabled, if you select either 10 or 20 seconds for the menu display time. Only the left hand side menu
will hide itself after the selected time, the right side menu stays put. However if you select either 1,2 or 5 seconds for the display time, both side menu's work
and hide properly. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on January 18, 2013, 11:59:24 pm
I got my DS2072 delivered today. This forum/thread and Marmad have been a great help in the deciding what to get. I've played with a for a couple of hours and it has been been awesome so far. Solid feel, low noise fan, clear menus. Comming from an 1984 analogue scope, I'm amazed by all the features, but was able to utilize them with relative ease. Very intuitive. Ultravision is cool as well. Feels like a CRT :).
Hopefully I can be of some help to this thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on January 19, 2013, 12:43:38 am
I've found a bug. Very minor, but a bug nontheless. I'm using firmware 00.00.01.00.05:
When using the menu timeout feature (menus retract after a set amount of seconds of inactivity), pressing any of the menu buttons or flipping to a next page resets the timer. It doens't do this for the left-side menus. No matter what button you press, the left menu always retracts after the set time from initial activation. The only way to 'keep it open' is to press a button the instant it retracts.

I can confirm the X-Y swap is fixed in 00.00.01.00.05 (still in the list in the first post).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 19, 2013, 01:48:57 am
I've found a bug. Very minor, but a bug nontheless. I'm using firmware 00.00.01.00.05:
When using the menu timeout feature (menus retract after a set amount of seconds of inactivity), pressing any of the menu buttons or flipping to a next page resets the timer.
DS2072 FW1.00.02
Related to this is the very annoyance/bug that once the menu retract time is set, the selection of letters in a file name does NOT reset the timer so it is hard to label files especially if switching to Capital letters in the short time.
I'm not sure if FW 1.00.05 still has this.   (we continue  to do Beta testing for Rigol)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 19, 2013, 03:00:49 am
I've found a bug. Very minor, but a bug nontheless. I'm using firmware 00.00.01.00.05:
When using the menu timeout feature (menus retract after a set amount of seconds of inactivity), pressing any of the menu buttons or flipping to a next page resets the timer. It doens't do this for the left-side menus. No matter what button you press, the left menu always retracts after the set time from initial activation. The only way to 'keep it open' is to press a button the instant it retracts.

I gave up trying to use the menu timeout feature because I didn't think it was well-implemented. The animation often isn't smooth (or is interrupted by external events) and I assume this is because the DSO is giving redraw priority (rightly so) to waveform display. But why have animation at all (especially if it isn't smooth)? If I use a menu timeout I just want the menus to go away - from fully out to fully in instantly would be fine with me.

Quote
I can confirm the X-Y swap is fixed in 00.00.01.00.05 (still in the list in the first post).

As far as I know, the X-Y swap bug has not been fixed in any version of firmware - except the engineering version which Dave had briefly. It's not fixed in my FW 01.00.05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Lizerd on January 19, 2013, 08:04:59 am

Quote
You are not reporting the full Firmware revision
Aaah thats right,
I have FW 00.00.01.00.02

Quote
Storage->DiskManager
Yes that is annoying but the return is there on the second page of the menu,
I totally missed that, think i checked the second page, but noo i had not :)
Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 19, 2013, 12:58:48 pm
So i did got back the trail options, and for test i did an auto cal to get rid of the trail options.  ( version ..005 )
That worked, all the trail options are gone after the self calibration.

I will test now to see if i can get it back again, i want to discover a solid reset.


I have found that following a re-cal the trials will normally return after a couple of cold restarts.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 19, 2013, 01:00:21 pm
I've found a bug. Very minor, but a bug nontheless. I'm using firmware 00.00.01.00.05:
When using the menu timeout feature (menus retract after a set amount of seconds of inactivity), pressing any of the menu buttons or flipping to a next page resets the timer. It doens't do this for the left-side menus. No matter what button you press, the left menu always retracts after the set time from initial activation. The only way to 'keep it open' is to press a button the instant it retracts.

I can confirm the X-Y swap is fixed in 00.00.01.00.05 (still in the list in the first post).

Hey.. I'm claiming that find :) Two posts earlier ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Lizerd on January 19, 2013, 05:54:50 pm
Quote
And my trail options are back again
Ooo how did you do that ?
Did it return by itself or by cold starts as orbiter said ?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on January 19, 2013, 07:44:21 pm
I can confirm the X-Y swap is fixed in 00.00.01.00.05 (still in the list in the first post).

As far as I know, the X-Y swap bug has not been fixed in any version of firmware - except the engineering version which Dave had briefly. It's not fixed in my FW 01.00.05.
Your absolutely right. It was a long day, late at night  :=\. My logic thinking out the window it seems. X-Y is still swapped
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 19, 2013, 07:57:04 pm
I have also fw ..005,

On ch 1 i get the Y
On ch 2 i get the X

What is wrong with that.., on my anloge scoop it is also this way
ch1 give the vertical and channel 2 the horizontal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 19, 2013, 09:43:17 pm
What is wrong with that.., on my anloge scoop it is also this way
ch1 give the vertical and channel 2 the horizontal.

Traditionally, it's written 'XY mode' and, numerically, you think CH1=X  CH2=Y, but it's not ALWAYS done this way - and not a big deal either way in my opinion.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 19, 2013, 09:57:32 pm
@Teneyes and Sparky:

So, I was curious after seeing Teneyes' posted images as to whether the interpolated curves actually passed correctly through the sample points - so I combined the two PNGs into one - with the original sample points superimposed as white dots:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=37277;image)

As you can see, it is perfectly correct.

Perhaps we need to make more checks like this at higher frequencies (approaching BW limit) to see if the DS2000 series suffers the same problems pointed out in the old thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/) (in which rf-loop pointed out that in the Rigol DS1052E/DS1102E, Rigol's implementation of SIN(X)/X was terribly wrong at frequencies approaching the rated BW)?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 20, 2013, 12:15:32 am
@Teneyes and Sparky:
As you can see, it is perfectly correct.

Perhaps we need to make more checks like this at higher frequencies (approaching BW limit) to see if the DS2000 series suffers the same problems pointed out in the old thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/) (in which rf-loop pointed out that in the Rigol DS1052E/DS1102E, Rigol's implementation of SIN(X)/X was terribly wrong at frequencies approaching the rated BW)?

Good idea for testing this marmad!  It is good to know Rigol have fixed this problem that was shown in the related DS1000 series thread.  Some people here have 100 MHz function gen's -- may be someone will be able to show dots and vectors and we will see how the interpolation matches up.

BTW, do you know where then name "Vectors" has come from?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 20, 2013, 01:47:24 am
BTW, do you know where then name "Vectors" has come from?

No idea. But clearly that choice of menu selection name is, if not semantically incorrect, is at least rather misleading - it certainly isn't doing linear interpolation - it's something involving curves. But perhaps Rigol isn't doing true SIN(X)/X, so that don't want to make the mistake of calling it that again (and they don't mention it in the owners manual) - so they just use 'vectors' as a kind of vague term for some kind of interpolation that they don't want to fully explain. We'll have to ask drieg to ask Rigol at some point if they will say what the actual formula is. For now, I'd just like to be sure that whatever math they do ends up with the interpolated waveform passing through the actual sample points at all frequencies up to BW.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on January 20, 2013, 07:28:05 am
so they just use 'vectors' as a kind of vague term for some kind of interpolation that they don't want to fully explain.

it looks like they may be using splines interpolation
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 20, 2013, 11:41:08 pm
I have taken a display of data from the fastest setting of my DS2072 (5nS/div) with 2 Channels  for 1GSa/s
and saved the waveform, then I manually set the Data Points with Hex File Editor,

I created a spreadsheet of "Idea" sine wave data values, and placed them in the file
I will show you the Data Points and the 'Vector' Display which always goes Through each data point.

Now the 1st two displays show a sine wave made up of 4 points,  now each point is 1nsec, therefore 4 x 1 = 4nSec or 250 MHz

Now the 3rd &4th  displays show a sine wave made up of 6 points,  now each point is 1nsec,therefore 6 x 1 = 6nSec or 166 MHz

Note that with only 6 points, sinewave only 2 points are above center and there are no data points at the peak of the sinewave, giving a smaller  peak-peak display.  I think a result of only 8 bit resolution.

I would like to test displaying waveform data on a 2nS/div display.  I will be sending a PM to DS2202 owner to help and sent me a waveform file "xxx.wfm".
It will be interesting to see if a File saved on DS2202 can be loaded in to a DS2072 ???

If so I will Manually set data for  a small number of point on a Fast scan display

Please note there are data points in the file  before and after the displayed data points such that  affect the display, In these displays I repeated the pattern.

GIVE THANKS to Marmad's RUU software that makes these screen captures very Easy. :) :) :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 21, 2013, 06:05:24 am
Can anyone provide a Dots display of a real 400MHz signal into a DS2202 with 2 chans (1GSa/s)?

My generator goes only up to 160 MHz. I send it to you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 21, 2013, 10:25:33 am
Hey look at this Noisy Waveform,  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Lizerd on January 21, 2013, 10:35:34 am
oh that was noisy :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 21, 2013, 01:10:03 pm
Hey look at this Noisy Waveform,  ;D

He he, you have uppgraded to DS2202.  :P
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 05:24:06 pm
Here a picture of 400 mhz on my 2072, in dots and vectors
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 06:09:34 pm
Here a nice picture if you approach half the sample rate
first picture 1 Gsa and the second 2 Gsa, nice alias
And the third picture the dots of the alias picture
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 06:18:16 pm
@ Teneyse

Here 3 pictures, 400 mhz stable on the display,
then the dots , they are moving, you normaly dont see that,
the dots re moving while the display is stable.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 08:13:41 pm
@ Teneyes,

Three pictures, 200 mhz
1 is Dots
2 vectors
3 running

You can see that running gives some noise, because of the moving dots
In vectors single mode you see the distorted sinus.
Just in running mode you get the nice sinus.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 09:03:54 pm
Some fun with the Rigol, 600 Mhz, picture in vector and dots.
The signal is 25 dB down on this frequency. But still some pictures.
For the relation of the vectors and the dots.

The counter is lost his mind, but the cursor gives the right frequency
which was on the signal generator 598.0 Mhz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 21, 2013, 09:14:32 pm
@Teneyes, Wim13, EV:

Thanks for all the research, info, and posting! Great stuff - and very interesting!
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on January 22, 2013, 06:45:39 am
some really nice looking screen captures up there!  :-+  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 23, 2013, 07:28:20 pm
Yet another happy DS2072 owner signing up:)
Initial impressions of the new scope are very good!

I considered for some time whether to buy this one or save some money and get a cheaper scope. I'm pretty confident that I don't have to regret my decision:)
And the big screen is really nice!

Bought my unit from drieg (Silcon Electronics, http://www.silcon.cz/ (http://www.silcon.cz/)). I can warmly recommend buying from him if you want good and fast product support!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sanka on January 23, 2013, 08:43:15 pm
Well, clearly there is some kind of screen saver bug,
For what it is worth, I filed a report at http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/. (http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/.)  I want to see how responsive they are.
[...]
I should have some time next week to play with and learn the scope a little bit. I'll tweak some settings and report back if screensaver starts to work.

Well, I thought I'd play around with it today. But it turns out that the unit is defective. I couldn't get it to do the initial Probe Compensation Function Inspection, per Page 7 of the manual. I keep getting "Auto Failed" error messages.

Besides, there appears to be a screen related defect. At times, upon power up, it shows blue screens and a lot of noise. I could get it to eventually show normal screen after power cycling 4-5 times. But there is something evidently wrong with the unit.

I called Rigol NA in Ohio. A very helpful gentleman helped me debug it on the phone and concluded that a new unit will have to be sent out. He is arranging for the RMA and an Advance Exchange (i.e., he will send out a new unit before my unit reaches him).

Although the unit I received was defective, I got a chance to check out Rigol NA Support and they appear helpful and prompt.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 23, 2013, 09:33:56 pm

I called Rigol NA in Ohio. A very helpful gentleman helped me debug it on the phone and concluded that a new unit will have to be sent out. He is arranging for the RMA and an Advance Exchange (i.e., he will send out a new unit before my unit reaches him).

Although the unit I received was defective, I got a chance to check out Rigol NA Support and they appear helpful and prompt.

Thanks for your report!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on January 24, 2013, 04:49:13 am
I'm trying to figure out the SPI decode function and not having much luck (even with RTFM :(   Can you guys please help?

I captured the SDA - Ch1 and SCLK - Ch2,

rising slope, 2.74v threshold for SCLK
Reverse Polarity, 1.25v threshold for SDA

I guess this supposed to show 4 bits (1010 ?), but it doesn't.   What am I doing wrong?  |O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flano on January 24, 2013, 05:27:43 am
Hi Everyone,

Well done to all of the contributors to this thread, it has some great info which I have been following over time.

I received a new DS2202 in the mail today and I'm very impressed having come from a DS1102e.

Has anyone done much with the I2C trigger. I can get it to trigger on a Start condition however I don't seem to be able to get it to trigger on a Missing Ack or Address.

Has anyone else experienced this? It may well be user error or some sort of Software issue on the board that I'm using to test.

Thanks Mike
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 24, 2013, 05:57:09 am
Has anyone done much with the I2C trigger. I can get it to trigger on a Start condition however I don't seem to be able to get it to trigger on a Missing Ack or Address.

@Mike: I haven't had more time to test the I2C trigger other than what I did in the review (which was triggering on a Start condition). I'll be back at my DSO in a couple of days and can test triggering on a NACK and some other conditions and let you know what I find.

@Vasily: Sorry, I haven't used the SPI decode at all - and don't have any SPI interfaces in my studio which I can test handily. Maybe someone else can help with this?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 24, 2013, 06:13:48 am
I am reporting a bug on 500uv only, where the display of the trace trigger point on the Center vertical graticule ( orange T arrow down)  is offset higher that then trigger level. This offset higher , is bigger at larger trigger Levels. See the Pics

Well, the first thing I would ask is whether the same thing happens at the 5ns timebase setting? Since you are... um... how shall I put it? ...using a timebase setting which is 'unavailable' on your model  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 24, 2013, 06:26:46 am
My options are EXPIRED, but still there..

This is a great find, Wim (and Teneyes) - nice work!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 06:37:41 am
FW 1.00.02
@marmad  ,
   This is a repeat report, I connectted a low level signal to Channel 1 , & set 8 point averaging for cleaner trace. The vertical scale was set to 500uV. 
 I am reporting a bug on 500uv only, where the display of the trace trigger point on the Center vertical graticule ( orange T arrow down)  is offset higher that then trigger level. This offset higher , is bigger at larger trigger Levels. See the Pics
Can anyone confirm my testing??? 
This is a small bug.

Have you calibrated the scope? There can be offset if the scope has not been calibrated.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 08:15:33 am
This may only occur on FW 1.00.02

There is No Offset on any other vertical scale.
There is No Offset when trigger level is 0.0. @ 500uV
The Trace does not offset, just the indication of the trigger point, IE the trace shifts to the left

DS2202, FW 1.00.05

Here are my pictures triggering Normal, Average 128 trig at 0 uV, Average 128 trig at 500 uV and Average 128 trig at 830 uV. If trig level is set bigger than 830 uV, the scope does not trig. Signal is 100MHz 2 mVpp sine. Note that average amplitude is rising up at trig point, when rising trig level. So scope is triggering to noise!?

Edit: Singnal is connected with BNC cable with feed thru 50 ohm terminator. There is offset at the last picture.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 11:27:40 am

Yes Noise affects the trigger point ,
I am saying the bug is how the trigger point is displayed

At 1 mv , all is OK

There is also offset at 1 mV level. Here is 100 kHz 2 mVpp normal signal with BW 20 MHz. Triggering is possible between levels -390 uV and 1.31 mV. Outside this the scope does not trigger. In both pictures there is offset.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 24, 2013, 01:26:19 pm
Hiya friends,

Ok.. so I know 'Auto' is not the best way of setting-up a scope for measuring signals. However I was just fiddling around this morning when I wanted a quick
signal detection. So I presses the Auto button but it doesn't do much really, apart from switch on both channels and show a waveform that then needs manually triggering. On previous scopes I've had the scope at least makes a decent attempt at showing a triggered signal.

I hear the relays click etc, & the signals I'm measuring are well within Rigols specified/recommended minimum parameters e.g... 50Hz 20mVpp.

Is this the norm on the DS2072?

Thanks fellas 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 01:39:09 pm
At least at 1mv/div  the Center and trigger line intersect on the Trace.

I think the offst  you are seeing is your 100KHS is modulated on a slower signal, like Mains power,
If you set Scan rate much slower , I think you'll see the higher Freq.  on a low Freq.

Maybe, but why it is not possible to move the trigger line more than 390 uV down? Up it can be moved 1.31 mV and then it is on the upper side of the signal. The possible movement is not symmetric.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 02:03:34 pm
Is this the norm on the DS2072?

Yes, look at the bug 7 on the first post. There is no alt trigger, so AUTO is useful only for a signal on one channel and if there is an easy signal. I have not used it at all for a long time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 24, 2013, 02:46:37 pm
Is this the norm on the DS2072?

Yes, look at the bug 7 on the first post. There is no alt trigger, so AUTO is useful only for a signal on one channel and if there is an easy signal. I have not used it at all for a long time.

Ah yes.. Thank you EV, & Marmad.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 24, 2013, 04:21:15 pm
Has anyone done much with the I2C trigger. I can get it to trigger on a Start condition however I don't seem to be able to get it to trigger on a Missing Ack or Address.

Has anyone else experienced this? It may well be user error or some sort of Software issue on the board that I'm using to test.

Thanks Mike

I tried the I2C triggers quickly today and they seem to work fine if you have correct settings.
I had a bit noisy I2C-lines and couldn't get trigger to missing ack/address at first. When I changed the trigger setting "Noise Reject ON", the triggers started working fine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 24, 2013, 05:40:50 pm
Does anybody want to tear apart the scope ?)
I noticed from Dave's teardown video, that the chip next to the BlackFin CPU is actually I2C FRAM (ferroelectric RAM).
Presumably some interesting data is inside :)

Maybe the DS2000 is intelligent enough to read its own I2C bus... :)
And maybe this kind of conversation should be moved somewhere else...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sanka on January 24, 2013, 06:26:18 pm
I couldn't get it to do the initial Probe Compensation Function Inspection, per Page 7 of the manual. I keep getting "Auto Failed" error messages.
For future reference , the "Auto Failed" message usually means No signal attached or it is too small for the DSO to detect and Auto Lock.
Will we ever know the cause of Failure?    Loose heat sink Clips??

Hi Teneyes,
As they are replacing the unit rather than repairing it, I doubt that I'll get any report of what they fixed. In fact, just before packing it up to return, I wanted to test some more. So I did a dozen or so power off/on followed by that probe compensation auto lock test. The lock worked after 4-5 power ons. But "Auto Failed" after the rest of the power ons.

In addition, possibly unrelated to the auto lock issue, the screen would freak out every once in a while showing either full screen blue background or yellow background (the same color as the traces) with heavy noise at the top and bottom. It would happen randomly and go away after about 10-20 seconds or after a power cycle.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flano on January 25, 2013, 11:12:04 am

Has anyone done much with the I2C trigger. I can get it to trigger on a Start condition however I don't seem to be able to get it to trigger on a Missing Ack or Address.
Thanks Mike
welcome to the forum;
Assuming you have looked at signal to be right levels and generally OK
SDA , SCL assigned correctly
Do you  know that there Is a missing Ack(s)?

I assume you know the Address, and maybe you can Scan slowly thru all addresses 1-127

Can you Att a screen shot with Menu open ,  like shown below
I find using Marmad's RUU 1.5.1 very easy  & fast

See: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575)

I'll call this one user error. After some messing around and simplification of my code I got it to successfully trigger.

Here are some screen captures for future reference.

Thanks for the quick replies.

Mike

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pena on January 25, 2013, 12:07:50 pm
Hi forum,

Here's another DS2072 owner de-lurking. I got mine a couple of days ago. Ended up to DS2072 mostly because of the information here. Thank you all! I ordered the scope (and another to my workmate) from silcon.cz. What a pleasure to buy from someone who knows his products. All my questions were answered quickly and friendly. No problems with the delivery, either.

My initial impression of the device has been good. Very nice upgrade from DS1052E. First things to notice are the large screen and the temperature controlled fan. You can hear the fan when the unit warms up but it doesn't disturb that much. And having separate knobs for both channels in the vertical system is a relief. At least after I learn to find the horizontal knobs from a new place. Already too many times I've been puzzled for a moment when trying to use CH2 scale for adjusting time/div... Oh, well :).

One of the features my old scope didn't have is the trigger output. I'm interested in using a scope in combination with a PC based logic analyzer. Getting them both triggered synchronously from an analog signal is going to be great. To play a little I made a quick setup where the scope was triggered to a 10Hz square wave from a signal generator on CH1. Then I connected the trigger output to CH2. The output delay seems to be about 220 ns with some jitter in it. Changing to 5ns/div and infinite persistence showed that the jitter is bounded within an about 8 ns window. Something in the scope clocked at 125MHz? Anyway, the frequencies of the signals I mostly work with are way lower. And the inexpensive USB based logic analyzer I use doesn't sample that fast anyway.

By the way, I had to use a second scope to get the width of the trigger output pulse measured. It seems to correlate with the time/div setting and the memory depth in use. When I first increased the waveform length of the DS2072 trying to get the falling edge on the screen, it got again pushed out of reach :). They mention in the user's manual that the trigger out can be used to find out the capture rate. Could it be so that the signal could also be used to determine if the scope is busy? That might be useful in some mixed signal debugging cases. A microcontroller could start something only when the scope is ready to capture. I wonder if the dead time is included in that... Maybe I'll continue comparing the trigger pulse length to the length of the captured waveform. And could try to increase the frequency of the input signal so that its period gets closer to the pulse width of the trigger output.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 25, 2013, 03:44:09 pm
By the way, I had to use a second scope to get the width of the trigger output pulse measured. It seems to correlate with the time/div setting and the memory depth in use.
Wellcome to the forum!

DS2202, FW 1.00.05

The signal from trigger out is very fast rising and falling. I measured it with my TDS3032 (BW 300 MHz) scope and got rise and fall time both to be 1.05 ns. It can be faster but my scope can not measure it. Rise time 1.05 ns gives bandwidth 350 / 1.05 = 333 MHz (> 300 MHz).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 25, 2013, 05:22:28 pm
DS2202, FW 1.00.05

The signal from trigger out is very fast rising and falling. I measured it with my TDS3032 (BW 300 MHz) scope and got rise and fall time both to be 1.05 ns. It can be faster but my scope can not measure it. Rise time 1.05 ns gives bandwidth 350 / 1.05 = 333 MHz (> 300 MHz).

Here is picture of Rigols trigger out signals rise time. It is measured with Fet probe. When using direct BNC cable, rise time is measured to 1.09 ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 25, 2013, 06:11:13 pm
Here is rise time (1.60 ns) measured with my DS2202 from trigger out signal. CH1 is connected to 1 MHz signal and CH2 is connected to trigger out signal with BNC cable with feed thru 50 ohm terminator.

BW = 350 / 1.60 = 219 MHz to my scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 25, 2013, 06:22:53 pm
By the way, I had to use a second scope to get the width of the trigger output pulse measured. It seems to correlate with the time/div setting and the memory depth in use.
Wellcome to the forum!

DS2202, FW 1.00.05

The signal from trigger out is very fast rising and falling. I measured it with my TDS3032 (BW 300 MHz) scope and got rise and fall time both to be 1.05 ns. It can be faster but my scope can not measure it. Rise time 1.05 ns gives bandwidth 350 / 1.05 = 333 MHz (> 300 MHz).
Sorry, stupid me, where is the 350 come from?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 25, 2013, 06:43:24 pm
Sorry, stupid me, where is the 350 come from?

Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_time)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pena on January 26, 2013, 09:45:48 am
DS2202, FW 1.00.05

The signal from trigger out is very fast rising and falling. I measured it with my TDS3032 (BW 300 MHz) scope and got rise and fall time both to be 1.05 ns. It can be faster but my scope can not measure it. Rise time 1.05 ns gives bandwidth 350 / 1.05 = 333 MHz (> 300 MHz).

Here is picture of Rigols trigger out signals rise time. It is measured with Fet probe. When using direct BNC cable, rise time is measured to 1.09 ns.

Thank you, EV!

Interesting figures and and nice screenshots. That really is a pretty fast rising signal that might be useful some day.

Also a nice example of how the equipment used for measuring affects the results. It would be nice to know what even faster scope would give for the rise time.
Title: Delivery time frame for Rigol DS2072 in US
Post by: wb3fsr on January 27, 2013, 02:40:40 am
Hi Folks,

Seems a number of you have recently purchased the DS2072....

I plan to order a DS2072on Monday and curious what others have recently experienced in delivery time from order placement with Rigol N/A ?

 :-+ Excellent forum

Title: Rigol DS2072 Screen in sun light
Post by: wb3fsr on January 27, 2013, 03:00:23 am
Here at the Jersey Shore when we are not wind swept with a Hurricane like Sandy, I like to roll a portion of my lab out onto the back patio and enjoy the great wx while prototyping and designing RF and control projects.

Any of you have experience with the DS2072 screen in sun light? Will the unit need a hood?

Also any hams that might comment on how well the instrument handles itself in high RF environments.  HT, 2 to 5 watts VHF/UHF 440 operation close by and HF kilowatt operation in shack... Excellent grounding of all equipment close by and used...

Tek & HP equipment here have no issues - I don't have any hands on experience with Rigol products.

TIA 73

PeterV



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 27, 2013, 11:50:04 am
Hello,

I saved some setup files before my trail options were expired.
For those whos trail options are also expired, here some of these files.
Where trail options are used.

There several setup files with different options used, just to play with
see if this is working for others users too, give us some feedback.
No garantee it will work but just analysing...
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 Screen in sun light
Post by: Wim13 on January 27, 2013, 02:16:26 pm
Here at the Jersey Shore when we are not wind swept with a Hurricane like Sandy, I like to roll a portion of my lab out onto the back patio and enjoy the great wx while prototyping and designing RF and control projects.

Any of you have experience with the DS2072 screen in sun light? Will the unit need a hood?

Also any hams that might comment on how well the instrument handles itself in high RF environments.  HT, 2 to 5 watts VHF/UHF 440 operation close by and HF kilowatt operation in shack... Excellent grounding of all equipment close by and used...

Tek & HP equipment here have no issues - I don't have any hands on experience with Rigol products.

TIA 73

PeterV

Not with direct sunlight, but i find very good with indirect sunlight.

With HF en VHF, the Rigol is complete shielded, so i my case i dont see any problems, i have some
hf on the cables so it is difficult to tell, with no cables is looks good. My earth connection is
to long. On VHF i have never seen any noise.

I had more trouble with these modern lamps with converters in it, when they are near
your test object. Sometimes i have to turn of the lights. But that has nothing to do with the Rigol.
Title: RF enviro
Post by: wb3fsr on January 27, 2013, 03:49:26 pm
Wim,

That's good news on the sun light issue - yes indirect works for me... Wife had me get a white canopy for the outdoor patio and now she has second thoughts when she see's all the wires and equipment out there LOLs  :scared:

My radio tower ground is within ten feet so I should be good then,

73

PeterV
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 27, 2013, 04:00:17 pm
I have a problem that when I use DS2102 to test a audio BTL driver, Math function A+B is use for checking any differential signal during rise/fall time, the signal on screen show a lot of noise and apparently should not be that great and have been verify by using TEKWAY DSO, anyone can give me a hand?  May be I was operate the scope wrongly.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 27, 2013, 04:45:41 pm
I have a problem that when I use DS2102 to test a audio BTL driver, Math function A+B is use for checking any differential signal during rise/fall time, the signal on screen show a lot of noise and apparently should not be that great and have been verify by using TEKWAY DSO, anyone can give me a hand?  May be I was operate the scope wrongly.

I have attach two pictures giving the same picture, first one with two probes, and
the second 1 probe connect to A and B.

Theory: 1 volt/div is 8 volts full scale, divided by 256 ( 8 bit resolution) is 31 mV per level,
the sampler goes up and down 1 level, so the noise is about 3 levels and that for each
channel and then added , gives a uncertainy of 6*31 is 187 mV, and thats is what i think you are seeing.

If you put avaraging on it gets beter...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 27, 2013, 04:56:40 pm
I got it, it's cause by the ADC resolution and I better end up using external circuit to do similar job.  My gone TELWAY 100MHz DSO which cost only 1/3 th the price can do the job beautifully.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 27, 2013, 05:08:15 pm
I got it, it's cause by the ADC resolution and I better end up using external circuit to do similar job.  My gone TELWAY 100MHz DSO which cost only 1/3 th the price can do the job beautifully.

Here same setup, in high resolution....oversampling, more resolution.

Thats why i keep also an analog scoop on the shelf, but will
be difficult in the future, they are not made anymore...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 27, 2013, 05:12:54 pm
Ha Ha, it seen technology is gone backward.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on January 27, 2013, 06:57:20 pm
Ha Ha, it seen technology is gone backward.

It's called "progress" ;). Probably can be fixed by using a higher bit depth adc. Give it a couple of years :)
Title: Re: Delivery time frame for Rigol DS2072 in US
Post by: TP on January 27, 2013, 07:47:45 pm
I have not purchased from RigolNA direct,  but good support from RigolNA when I lost my Trial options. I purchased from Tequipement as same price for DS but free Shipping.
Even with Back order I received in 11 days.  UPS took 6 Days. I also like Tequipement and bought another order and got 5% discount (web coupon)  under Rigol's price.

I bought my DS2072 from Tequipment in New Jersey as well.  When I was looking on their web page for other scopes it popped up a 5% discount offer.  While the popup didn't show when looking at Rigol scopes, I tried the code anyway and it worked.  The also gave free shipping.  There was a bit of a delay in shipping, but it was right after hurricane Sandy so it was understandable.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 27, 2013, 10:50:05 pm
Yes, but what I'm look for is A+B.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JOHNJB on January 29, 2013, 09:13:26 pm
I have a problem that when I use DS2102 to test a audio BTL driver, Math function A+B is use for checking any differential signal during rise/fall time, the signal on screen show a lot of noise and apparently should not be that great and have been verify by using TEKWAY DSO, anyone can give me a hand?  May be I was operate the scope wrongly.

Is this a meaningful display for this topic ?

Update 1.005 solves some importants bugs in math function.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 30, 2013, 05:08:01 am
The above result in question is come from DS2102 firmware 1.0.0.5
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 30, 2013, 09:27:41 am
FW 1.00.02
Hi All
   This may be only on my version, but watch out for this quirk (bug)
   While saving DSO setups to a file on USB stick, look at the funny date stamps on the files I save between 06:55 to 07:00 ,
2 files were stamped with year 2043 and 2014-9-6.
Anyone else see this.!!!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 30, 2013, 04:05:41 pm
FW 1.00.02
Hi All
   This may be only on my version, but watch out for this quirk (bug)
   While saving DSO setups to a file on USB stick, look at the funny date stamps on the files I save between 06:55 to 07:00 ,
2 files were stamped with year 2043 and 2014-9-6.
Anyone else see this.!!!

Yes, on occasion, last weeks not
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on January 30, 2013, 06:05:54 pm
ui marmad .. the thread is running high :)

I'm looking for Rigol DS2k series user, with signal gen, to run some frequency response testes

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 30, 2013, 06:16:42 pm
ui marmad .. the thread is running high :)

I'm looking for Rigol DS2k series user, with signal gen, to run some frequency response testes

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/)
I have the equipment and can run these tests, but I think my BNC cables are garbage (they were cheap) as it's far too sensitive to movement. I'll try to get a stable setup to make some measurements tonight, if nobody else gets there first.

It'd be really hand to have a GPIB card for the siggen...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 30, 2013, 06:54:49 pm
I'll try to get a stable setup to make some measurements tonight, if nobody else gets there first.

My generator goes only up to 160 MHz, so it is not what they want.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on February 01, 2013, 07:57:27 am
ui marmad .. the thread is running high :)

I'm looking for Rigol DS2k series user, with signal gen, to run some frequency response testes

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/)

I've posted my results over in that thread. My scope seems to be -3dB at about 100MHz. Interestingly CH2 looks better up to 150MHz or so, and then performs quite a bit worse than CH1 after that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on February 02, 2013, 05:41:43 am
Apologies if I'm asking a simple and/or stupid question.  I can't find an answer in the manual and can't figure out how to search this thread for it.

I've somehow got my 2072 into a mode I can't get it out of.  The vertical sensitivity display for channel 1 has a tilde instead of an equal sign.   For example, it says "~ 1.00v" instead of "= 1.00v".  What did I do, and how do I get the equal sign back?  Channel 2 is ok, displays the equal sign.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 02, 2013, 06:44:04 am
I've somehow got my 2072 into a mode I can't get it out of.  The vertical sensitivity display for channel 1 has a tilde instead of an equal sign.   For example, it says "~ 1.00v" instead of "= 1.00v".  What did I do, and how do I get the equal sign back?  Channel 2 is ok, displays the equal sign.

It is on user manual page 2-3. You have AC coupling. Change it to DC coupling.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on February 02, 2013, 08:27:49 pm
It is on user manual page 2-3. You have AC coupling. Change it to DC coupling.
Thanks.  Now that I know what this symbol is, it's not only obvious, it's a nice feature.  And I realize now what I thought was an equal sign isn't, but a symbol for DC.  The book shows only the DC symbol explaining why I never found a "~".  I'm coming from an analog scope.  Thinking the DC symbol was an equal sign, I interpreted the tilde as meaning "approximately" instead of "ac coupling".  This seemed pretty analogous to "uncal" on the analog scope, and my thinking continued downhill from there.  Some parts of the transition from analog to DSO are obvious, and others are pretty different.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 03, 2013, 11:50:04 am
I'm coming from an analog scope.  Thinking the DC symbol was an equal sign, I interpreted the tilde as meaning "approximately" instead of "ac coupling".  This seemed pretty analogous to "uncal" on the analog scope, and my thinking continued downhill from there.
I don't really think there's an UNCAL for these scopes... since they can tell you the exact width of a div on the display, even if you're using a fractional one (you can do that by pressing the scale knob, then rotating). Sure, it might be more difficult to read, but it's still accurate. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on February 03, 2013, 01:17:25 pm
I posted this one also in the DSO graph, measured the Rigol 2072, with -10 dBm ( 70 mV)
direct on the BNC connector, measured every 10 Mhz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 04, 2013, 12:23:17 am
This seemed pretty analogous to "uncal" on the analog scope, .
I don't really think there's an UNCAL for these scopes... Sure, it might be more difficult to read, but it's still accurate. :)

@Scummos & Tigerwillow
  Similar to UnCal on old Scopes in the time scale/div is the Fine Time scale adjustment
  Use the Scale "MENU" (between Scale and Postion)
  set "ScaleAdjust" to 'Fine'   for  1% adjustments 
   IE  10.0us/div to 10.1us/div

   For Vertical (V/div) Press the vertical Scale knob for  Voltage vernier in 2% steps
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 04, 2013, 12:36:54 am
Yeah, as I said you can get the same behaviour by pressing the knob. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on February 06, 2013, 12:01:36 pm
I'm trying to figure out the following. Coming from an analog scope, I'm still getting my head around al these extra features! But can't figure out how to do (if even possible) what I want the scope to do: I'm trying to determine the absolute maximum pp voltage my bass guitar puts out. Ideally, I want the scope to hold on to the max measured value and capture the next highest if one occurs, either a value, or the waveform itself. Is this possible with the DS2072?? Or do I have to record a bit and track back the recorded waveform?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on February 06, 2013, 01:52:50 pm
I'm trying to figure out the following. Coming from an analog scope, I'm still getting my head around al these extra features! But can't figure out how to do (if even possible) what I want the scope to do: I'm trying to determine the absolute maximum pp voltage my bass guitar puts out. Ideally, I want the scope to hold on to the max measured value and capture the next highest if one occurs, either a value, or the waveform itself. Is this possible with the DS2072?? Or do I have to record a bit and track back the recorded waveform?

funk.  Try setting a really slow scan rate, for example 500ms or 1s and play your loudest notes. see if you get something useful this way. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 06, 2013, 04:11:15 pm
Or use a DMM with min-max.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on February 06, 2013, 09:10:44 pm
Ideally, I want the scope to hold on to the max measured value and capture the next highest if one occurs, either a value, or the waveform itself.

@FunK (brother?)
Select which channel , CH1 or Ch2
select left top menu  for "Vertical" menu
on left buttons
Select  Vpp

Select "Measure"
on right
Select "Statistics"  ON   

see table for Max Vpp

You may also Like:

select time base 100ms  or faster
select  "Display" menu (group of 6 menus)
select "Persis.Time" 
select "20s"
Thanks guys for the input  :-+
But Teneyes hit the home run! Works exactly how I want it.  I wasn't aware of the 'statistics' and only used the 'display all' setting and chose some values for the bottom part of the screen. The statistics actually hold on to the max value permenantly, until pressing clear or chosing another V/divs for example. The other two options I mentioned don't.

And very insightfull I might add. My active jazz bass puts out 6.32 Vpp played HARD. My Musicman Stingray a whoping 7.68 Vpp. Knowing a 12AX7 ideally can only handle 3 Vpp on it's grid before soft-clipping, there's work to be done at the input stage
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on February 06, 2013, 11:18:56 pm
I love this - rigol helps make better music :)

Just curious, did you measure while the guitars were plugged in to the input stage,powered on?  I guess the levels may change a bit under the load...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on February 07, 2013, 04:50:26 am
I guess the levels may change a bit under the load...
I second this.  I did a similar test with my pedal steel guitar and believe it made a sigificant difference with vs without load.  However, the bass under test (BUT?) volume control on is likely providing loading.   

I was surprised to see ~12V P-P (with a normal load) especially considering a lot of players run these into 9V powered pedals.  On the other hand it took some extreme picking to get that 12V.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on February 07, 2013, 03:27:57 pm
I guess the levels may change a bit under the load...
I second this.  I did a similar test with my pedal steel guitar and believe it made a sigificant difference with vs without load.  However, the bass under test (BUT?) volume control on is likely providing loading.   

I was surprised to see ~12V P-P (with a normal load) especially considering a lot of players run these into 9V powered pedals.  On the other hand it took some extreme picking to get that 12V.
Hahahaha Bass-Under-Test! That's a keeper.
The basses were unloaded, but since they use active electronics (buffered outputs) normally going into a 1 Meg impedance input, the voltagedrop would be minimal.

Concerning the large output voltages vs the 9V effect pedals, that's a common problem. Lots of pedals clip when driving them full force. Specially older hardware expecting passive instrument input.You either have to turn down your instruments volume (which can be undesirable, because it can alter the tone), or use an FX loop with adjustable output. Even my active Jazz bass (with after market Audere preamp) clips hard when turning both the volume and EQ to the max.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 08, 2013, 09:49:56 pm
Yet another 2000 user here. Upgraded from the 1000 series. First impressions are its a fast computing well thought out DSO. Just pressing "auto" is enough to demonstrate its speed. Operating satisfaction is up a league from the previous. Especially the dedicated metrics menu is a boon. Soft buttons green backlight could be stronger its only noticed when there is strong light direct on. The screen is fine as long as it is viewed at soft down looking angle. Above eye level positioning of the scope darkens it out. Better avoid such positioning if you can rearrange the bench gear. The fan is rather too noticeable in silent surroundings although heavier in tone and lower in SPL than in the 1000. Its just a close pass under ''nuisance'' level for me. The probes are short and agile enough to handle. Their speed looks adequate. There is a serious issue though. The hook sheath slips off too easily. Practically unusable when need to hang off a test point with their bottom down or in wide angle. Not different than those in the small series in that respect. I got the remedy though. 8) That is borrowing the hook cone bit from those P6100 el cheapo probes abundant on Ebay. They stick like glue to the Rigols. Don't go buy only spare cones some have on offer. Those slip away easily as well. The noise is hunky dory with the averaging or Hi Res mode on. About 100uV PK-PK @ 500uV vertical. With 20MHZ BWL the averaging method only beats the Hi Res method to 40uV PK-PK. More to explore in functions and details in the next few days, but you guys have covered all that Jazz already. I thought I could just commit the couple of hours long "first impressions" only as in the title of the thread.
Last but not least, I want to thank "Drieg" AKA Peter of www.silcon.cz (http://www.silcon.cz) for his phenomenal pre-sales and after sales support. Highly recommended seller for anybody buying in EU. Cheers Peter!
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc53/salas_043/DS2000_zps9504e952.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 08, 2013, 10:09:47 pm
There is a serious issue though. The hook sheath slips off too easily.

You are not first with this. It is not in its place correctly. Push the hook tip harder to its place until it clicks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 08, 2013, 10:27:18 pm
 :-+ You are right! I just tried that and it locks much better! Why on earth they don't mention "push further to lock" on the the probe's manual...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 10, 2013, 04:00:27 am
The scope sees its 3VPP 1kHz cal signal as unipolar, displays it above mid-line and measures it x0.71 for RMS when the channel is DC coupled. Unipolar square waves for RMS are supposed to be like sine waves indeed. Measures it x0.5 or VP when AC coupled as expected. My external generator outputs bipolar square anyway so the scope always centers it mid-line for AC/DC and measures it at VP for RMS when on 50% duty cycle. The FLUKE 87 measures the external gen near zero on its DCV setting and at VP on its ACV setting. But when measuring the probes cal signal it measures them at VP both on its ACV and DCV setting. F87 is a true RMS reading DMM. Are both the DS2000 and the F87 doing everything right?   :-DMM  :-// :-BROKE
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 10, 2013, 11:02:31 am
The scope sees its 3VPP 1kHz cal signal as unipolar, displays it above mid-line and measures it x0.71 for RMS when the channel is DC coupled. ...... F87 is a true RMS reading DMM. Are both the DS2000 and the F87 doing everything right?
@Salas:
 Check out user's guide  for Vrms calculation ; page 6-18 or   page 138 in pdf at:
http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/DS2000_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/DS2000_UserGuide_EN.pdf)
Begins with "   8. Vrms: the root mean square value on the whole waveform or the gating area."

Be aware that Gating Area, means the trace on the display, so you can see when I moved the trigger point to the left  and adjust the time base to show mostly just the +300mv of the Cal-signal the DS2000 will Calculate the RMS to be 283mv ,
See display, I hope that helps understand this scope
Note: I used the Fine Adjust of the timebase to get 39.00us/div

A nice description:
http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/ (http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 10, 2013, 03:39:44 pm

Put a HP 3478 multimeter on the probe test points of the Rigol 2072,

got 1.48 V on DC
got 1.48 V on AC

On the Rigol 2072,

got rms 1.48 on AC
got rms 2.08 on DC which is not correct

rms gives same Power in the same R, as a DC voltage of that value.
 

Thought so at start too. I.e. that the Rigol is not correct in that case. Your scope and DMM show exactly the same values as my gear. But I saw in square waves theory that a unipolar square wave with 50% duty cycle should have an RMS value of 0.707 times its full height voltage value (VRMSpulse=VpSqrtDuty). Maybe its just a matter of DMMs can't differentiate unipolar from bipolar squares, when the scope can see the difference when DC coupled? Can anybody run the same test in another brand DSO to compare behavior? Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 10, 2013, 03:50:56 pm

Be aware that Gating Area, means the trace on the display, so you can see when I moved the trigger point to the left  and adjust the time base to show mostly just the +300mv of the Cal-signal the DS2000 will Calculate the RMS to be 283mv ,
See display, I hope that helps understand this scope
Note: I used the Fine Adjust of the timebase to get 39.00us/div

A nice description:
http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/ (http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/)

Teneyes, thanks about the triggering info. The mastering electronics link confirms that a unipolar square (i.e. pulse) has more RMS than simply VP in link's final equation (5). A bipolar square has simply VP in RMS (10).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 11, 2013, 04:40:56 am
The probes look cool when fitted with black noses by the way. 8) I had those as spares, got them dirt cheap from Ebay a while ago. Push harder to hear a click for proper fit like with the originals.

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc53/salas_043/Picture001_zps4de2e375.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: cyr on February 11, 2013, 12:16:54 pm

Put a HP 3478 multimeter on the probe test points of the Rigol 2072,

got 1.48 V on DC
got 1.48 V on AC

On the Rigol 2072,

got rms 1.48 on AC
got rms 2.08 on DC which is not correct

rms gives same Power in the same R, as a DC voltage of that value.
 

Your DMM measured AC (RMS) and DC (average), but not AC+DC RMS which is what the scope is doing when DC-coupled.

AC+DC RMS is = sqrt(AC^2 + DC^2)

You can think if it this way, a square wave with no DC offset is always + or - Vp, so would generate Vp^2 / R watts in a resistor.
A "one-sided" square wave with the same amplitude has a voltage of 2*Vp half of the time (and zero the other half), so creates ((2Vp)^2 / R) / 2 = 2(Vp^2) / R watts on average.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 11, 2013, 01:06:34 pm
Aha, just tested with Mastech 8218 which has AC+DC true RMS mode. Same reading as the scope when DC coupled. :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 12, 2013, 06:20:02 pm
Does anyone happen to have an idea if / how I could make the scope add the two channels with an offset in time between them? Like, display Ch1(t) + Ch2(t+T), with T selectable?

It doesn't seem to be possible, but maybe there's some trick I overlooked? ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 12, 2013, 11:07:45 pm
Hey Teneyes, thanks for your effort!

No, nothing like that... I'm specifically interested in having the math function display Channel 1 plus Channel 2, but with different delays between the channels. I guess it's just not possible...
Thanks neverthereless ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 13, 2013, 01:14:40 am
I'm specifically interested in having the math function display Channel 1 plus Channel 2, but with different delays between the channels. I guess it's just not possible...
Thanks neverthereless ;)

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do - but it might be possible to use the delay trigger option to adjust the T between the two channels - if you can satisfy the edge trigger requirements. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 14, 2013, 07:09:14 pm
NOTE: This DS2072 display data  was Manually Created to test the  DSO measuring system.
so I can better understand .my first DSO.

 THIS IS NOT A REAL SIGNAL

The display shows that the measurements are calculated/measured on the data that is displayed.

NOTE that the Sin(x)/x interpolation is  applied to the sample data points before measurements as shown by the "Vpp = 7.12V" , the peaks of the Sin ripples ( the data is a step of only 6.0V)

NOTE that the system knows only 2GSa/s is used , so cannot measure under 0.5ns thus rise time is measured as  "rise<500ps"

NOTE the difference among Max, Top, and Amp  measurements.

This maybe helpful to others to understand this DSO
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 14, 2013, 07:54:04 pm
Another thing now. The digital filter in the 1000 series was handy. Could limit the bandwidth very low, could notch out things etc. Brought ringing to pulse of course but for other stuff like susceptible power lines & motors (to fields, EMI or RFI, so to separate the original harmonic noise) was nice. Do you think that the lack of that menu in the 2000 is completely covered by Hi Res mode series averaging and large memory for instance? Any other settings suggestions for covering those needs?

P.S. Sorry if it has been mentioned before.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on February 15, 2013, 06:09:49 pm
NOTE: This DS2072 display data  was Manually Created to test the  DSO measuring system.
so I can better understand .my first DSO.


NOTE that the system knows only 2GSa/s is used , so cannot measure under 0.5ns thus rise time is measured as  "rise<500ps"

NOTE the difference among Max, Top, and Amp  measurements.

This maybe helpful to others to understand this DSO

Strange item, the signal seems to be able to look in the future,
before the signal goes up, ther is a reverse ringing, how does the signal
knows that some nSec later it has to go up..?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 15, 2013, 11:19:26 pm
One interesting thing I've learned while programming RUU is that the Rigol only displays 200 of the 256 possible ADC levels at any given time (mapped to the 8 vertical grid divisions) - even though the entire range is available via SCPI. My newest version of RUU (hopefully will post it tomorrow) has a 'Full ADC' switch - to allow seeing the full range.

Here is a clipped sine wave visible on the Rigol display:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39469)

And here is the same sine wave displayed in RUU (with 10 vertical divisions) at exactly the same time:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39471)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dougg on February 16, 2013, 04:52:03 pm
One interesting thing I've learned while programming RUU is that the Rigol only displays 200 of the 256 possible ADC levels at any given time (mapped to the 8 vertical grid divisions) - even though the entire range is available via SCPI. My newest version of RUU (hopefully will post it tomorrow) has a 'Full ADC' switch - to allow seeing the full range.

I own a Agilent DSO1024A scope which is made by Rigol. One frustrating thing when viewing a signal with a large dynamic range (amplitude) was that as soon as a peak jutted out of the viewing window (either the top or bottom) then all the measurements that were impacted suddenly became "*****". So a little "headroom" above and below the displayed window in which measurements could still be taken is a good thing IMO.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 16, 2013, 05:21:34 pm
One interesting thing I've learned while programming RUU is that the Rigol only displays 200 of the 256 possible ADC levels at any given time (mapped to the 8 vertical grid divisions) - even though the entire range is available via SCPI. My newest version of RUU (hopefully will post it tomorrow) has a 'Full ADC' switch - to allow seeing the full range.
I own a Agilent DSO1024A scope which is made by Rigol. One frustrating thing when viewing a signal with a large dynamic range (amplitude) was that as soon as a peak jutted out of the viewing window (either the top or bottom) then all the measurements that were impacted suddenly became "*****". So a little "headroom" above and below the displayed window in which measurements could still be taken is a good thing IMO.
The Rigol DS2000 will still measure and display the measurements if >top+25%  and < bot-25% , and what Marmad is proposing is only in his RUU. data utility program that the Display be extended to show the complete waveform , Great Idea  :) :) :)

When part of the trace is outside the extended range the waveform should show clipped as the measurements affected will show ****.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 16, 2013, 05:58:50 pm
I own a Agilent DSO1024A scope which is made by Rigol. One frustrating thing when viewing a signal with a large dynamic range (amplitude) was that as soon as a peak jutted out of the viewing window (either the top or bottom) then all the measurements that were impacted suddenly became "*****". So a little "headroom" above and below the displayed window in which measurements could still be taken is a good thing IMO.

Sure, on many low-end scopes the moment your waveform goes off the screen above or below, then all the measurements were inaccurate. So I'm guessing that's one of the reasons that they've done it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 16, 2013, 06:25:08 pm
Here is a 3D-plot of a frame array (RUU does this now ;) ) using the Rigol 8-division screen size - showing a square wave set to the boundaries of the screen. In the plot, each square represents two screen squares (i.e. 7 x 4 = 14 x 8 on the screen). Note the white streaks at the top - that is where the square is touching the screen top (and thus activating the white color in the CLUT):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39539)

Here is the same data plotted again - although this time using the full data set mapped to 10 divisions (7 x 5):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39541)
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on February 16, 2013, 07:39:37 pm
Here is a 3D-plot of a frame array (RUU does this now ;) ) ]

Man what a great idea to present frames on a 3d plot! 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 16, 2013, 07:48:22 pm
Man what a great idea to present frames on a 3d plot!
Thanks  :) - it's what I've been planning with RUU all along. But since the memory read bug, I had to devise a different scheme to get to my goal. Now the software can save, load, plot, and play 'frame arrays':

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39550)

Here's a 2D plot of frames of a voltage-increasing sine wave - using a black body color lookup table:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39546)

Here's the same frames plotted in 3D using a 2-color gradient on the Y-axis (Edit: Note the frame order is reversed in this plot - increasing away from the front plane):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39548)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on February 16, 2013, 07:54:19 pm
Although I do not fully understand the pictures, they are cool. You must be a skilled programmer.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 16, 2013, 10:40:05 pm
@marmad
Nice pictures!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: branadic on February 16, 2013, 10:51:13 pm
Something I was wondering about after I have had a DS2202 for testing is:
They use the relabled LMH6518, why does Rigol not offer variable gain additional to the fixed vertical scale settings and for this reason the possibility to use the maximum of vertical resolution for any input signal? The LMH6518 has a gain step size of 2dB, which allows additional odd scales beside the standard historical 1 / 2 / 5 scaling.
Same functionallity is also available on my over 6 years old TDS5104B.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 17, 2013, 12:11:35 am
Do you mean fractional Volts/Div settings? You can get those by pushing, then rotating the Scale knob.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: branadic on February 17, 2013, 12:29:18 am
If you want to call it fractional.... in your case, is it a gain setting at the input amplifier or is it just zooming of already digitized data?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 17, 2013, 09:52:17 am
  Wow, great functionality and displays Marmad. :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+

Thanks, Teneyes.

Quote
Does that mean that the 3-D display function of RUU  can also display the extended data values up to FF hex, (+113.5%) and still detect and show the white streaks if value is = FF (hex) at the max?

Yes, the entire data set (0 - FFh) is saved in frame arrays and can always be plotted or played back with either 8 or 10 vertical divisions.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on February 17, 2013, 12:06:46 pm
Hi, marmad
Could you, please, test Video Syncronization Mode. It became my painful point after frustrating with SDS7102:
http://owon.forumup.com/about153-owon.html (http://owon.forumup.com/about153-owon.html)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on February 17, 2013, 12:15:49 pm
An other way to check the resolution, per division,
Put scale to 1 volt/dev, with nothing connected just noise ( picture 1)
Press stop, and set scale to 20 mV (picture 2).

On 1 volt div, with 8 div and 200 levels, one level is 40 mV
On picture 2 you cansee that a sample was indeed 40 mV

Strange anomely, on picture 2 there are spikes above the trigger level,
but when switches to dots, there are no dots above the trigger level ( picture 3)
So it looks like that the DSO is calculating more noise then there is..?

@ Marmad, nice software developed. But i think more explanation is needed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 17, 2013, 02:30:12 pm
Strange anomely, on picture 2 there are spikes above the trigger level,
but when switches to dots, there are no dots above the trigger level ( picture 3)
So it looks like that the DSO is calculating more noise then there is..?

It has to do with the sin(x)x interpolation - the theoretical travel of the waveform in order to fit the given sample points. Of course, I think the interpolation begins to get 'fuzzy' at a very low level.

Quote
@ Marmad, nice software developed. But i think more explanation is needed.

Well, I hope to have it posted a little later today, so you can play around with it yourself  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 17, 2013, 09:36:41 pm
My first compiled 3D-plot: using the same set of frames showing the voltage-increasing sine wave in the images in my previous post.

Unfortunately, because of bandwidth restrictions on uploads here, I had to reduce the resolution for this post. There is a more detailed version here (http://daysalive.com/share/compiled_3D_plot.gif). Once it loads. it plays smoothly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EvgenyKV on February 18, 2013, 08:23:59 am
It has to do with the sin(x)x interpolation - the theoretical travel of the waveform in order to fit the given sample points. Of course, I think the interpolation begins to get 'fuzzy' at a very low level.

And the DS2000 series has sin(x)/x interpolation?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 18, 2013, 12:28:21 pm
Yes, definitely. sin(x)/x interpolation is the "mathematically correct" way to reconstruct a signal, so there isn't really a reasonable alternative. Plus, it's very powerful: If you guarantee that the highest frequency in the input signal is below the nyquist frequency (1 GHz for this scope), then it guarantees that the signal is reconstructed completely with perfect accuracy (minus bandwidth attenuation, of course -- it reconstructs the signal which arrives at the ADC, not what arrives at the input port).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 18, 2013, 01:59:59 pm
Yes, definitely. sin(x)/x interpolation is the "mathematically correct" way to reconstruct a signal, so there isn't really a reasonable alternative. Plus, it's very powerful: If you guarantee that the highest frequency in the input signal is below the nyquist frequency (1 GHz for this scope), then it guarantees that the signal is reconstructed completely with perfect accuracy (minus bandwidth attenuation, of course -- it reconstructs the signal which arrives at the ADC, not what arrives at the input port).

Well, it is might be notable that sin(x)/x interpolation is not mentioned anywhere in the documentation for the 2000 series (and perhaps not in that of the entire UltraVision line) - they only mention 'dots' or 'vectors'. As mentioned previously in this thread (and first pointed out by Rf-loop in his original thread), Rigol appears to have not done sin(x)/x correctly in the DS1000 series (even though it's called that in the DS1052E manual) - with the reconstructed waveform failing to sometimes pass through the sample points.

What that means in terms of the 2000 series I don't know - but I can report that as far as we currently know, the reconstructed waveform DOES correctly pass through the sample points as it should.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 18, 2013, 07:12:04 pm
Weird, I tought I had read it somewhere. But looking for it, I can't find it.

Anyways, I did quite a few tests already and the waveform always passes through the points. Also, my own sin(x)/x implementation creates curves which look very similar to those on the scope. ;)
So I'd say it's all fine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 18, 2013, 09:34:04 pm
Here are the same 700 Rigol  frames (of the sine wave with a rising voltage) made into a compiled 2D plot (using a 2-color gradient and transparency) - with each frame of the animated GIF equaling 175 plotted Rigol frames - stepping 15 frames forward on each GIF frame.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2013, 02:15:19 pm
As mentioned before in this thread, one thing that confuses some people is that the frame (segment) recording is based on a trigger occurring - not on time passing - as with other recording devices (video, sound, etc). This means that unless you have a perfectly regularly recurring trigger, the time between frames will vary. One of the weaknesses in the Rigol firmware is that there is no way to visualize this - playing back frames happens at a fixed rate - unrelated to the actual time tag of the frame.

The new version of RUU solves this problem in a number of different ways. As an example, take a look at a 3D plot (and the animated GIFs in the next post) of a series of frames recorded of a sine wave changing (with a glitch) into a lower frequency square wave. In the first set, the plot (and playback) of the frames happens just like on the Rigol - with an equidistant setting based on frame count:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39719)

In the second set, RUU plots the 3D graph (and plays back the recorded frames) with a changing scale set by the frame time - not count. You can see clearly that the frames are not evenly spaced - and that the sine wave portion (of time) is much smaller than the slower-triggering square wave section:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39721)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2013, 02:20:43 pm
Here are the same frames again - playing back in RUU - first, with an equidistant time scale based on frame count (like the Rigol):
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2013, 02:24:42 pm
And here, with a time scale based on the frame time:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2013, 06:53:52 pm
Is RUU able to see if trigger was Auto or Normal?

Trigger data is not saved with frames - so no way for RUU to get that info from Rigol.

Quote
Like the display interval time, with RUU will traces displayed on frame time bases have a realtime slow motion feature.
 "Frame Time" slower, or faster clocking would be nice but still be relative timing,
 Slowing the faster ones, and speeding up the slow triggers but still able to see the skipped beats

I'm not 100% sure I understand you, but I think it does what you're asking for. The "@ XXXms" box in RUU sets the playback speed for frame arrays - the fastest possible setting is 15ms - or about 65 FPS. When you use the "Z Scale: Frame Time" setting in the Frame Array Plot/Play Settings Box, RUU will play all frames scaled from the "@ XXXms" setting as the minimum. So if you have "XXXms" set to 15ms - and a 40us frame is the fastest frame time in your frame array, then it will play at 15ms - but a 100us frame will play at 37.5ms (2.5 x 15ms).

Quote
Release Date??? ;)

Hopefully today - a little later  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: StubbornGreek on February 19, 2013, 11:37:53 pm
After reading through this thread and watching Dave's content, I couldn't help myself and ordered a DS2202. I'll let everyone know how it works out when it arrives.

Also, thank you to all whom have contributed to this thread - great read.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chalky on February 20, 2013, 10:48:43 am
Am loving my new DS2072.  Customs sat on it for 3 weeks because they had a question, and the courier company claimed they had posted me a letter to tell me!  Ha ha - were the ponies busy?

Great scope, great screen, god it is nice to look at.  Auto set is easily confused, annoying but not critical.

Been using it for a bit of video signal debugging, found it to be very functional, but slightly fiddly to use some of the menus (the selection wheel sensitivity & acceleration could be better).  Compared to my Fluke Scopemeter 196c, I'd say I still prefer to Fluke for some stuff (because it's simpler), but overall I'd go for the Rigol as it has many more features (like holdoff - can't find that in my Fluke!).

Marmad - your software is awesome.  I love, and appreciate your efforts. I'm volunteering some of my time if you want some VB coding done, let me know.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 20, 2013, 03:20:18 pm
Marmad - your software is awesome.  I love, and appreciate your efforts. I'm volunteering some of my time if you want some VB coding done, let me know.

Thanks, Chalky... I appreciate it  :)  Perhaps I'll take you up on that offer later - right now my biggest problem is finding time to write documentation, but I think I'll just post the newest version with a bare-bones description and let people ask questions if they need to.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 20, 2013, 08:18:46 pm
2.0 has finally arrived!  :D  Read this for the latest documentation (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg194234/#msg194234) - and please leave feedback if you download and try it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on March 01, 2013, 12:33:05 am
DS2072 Build Quality,
A member PMed me and asked me how well is the Rigol built
Below is a Pic of me standing (on 1leg) on my DS2072
I am 120kg = 260Lbs, note foot size,
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on March 01, 2013, 07:08:47 am
Good test! Which standard?  ^-^
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: SeanB on March 01, 2013, 02:51:44 pm
So now Rigol makes an exercise step, in addition to the regular test equipment. ;)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 06, 2013, 07:04:38 pm
Does the Rigol DS2000 series have an alternate trigger function? It would be useful for stable display of two signals with a bit different frequency... According to the manual, it seems that there is no alternate trigger even in the DS4000 and DS6000 series.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on March 06, 2013, 07:17:36 pm
Does the Rigol DS2000 series have an alternate trigger function? It would be useful for stable display of two signals with a bit different frequency... According to the manual, it seems that there is no alternate trigger even in the DS4000 and DS6000 series.
Definitely not in the DS2000. Not sure about the DS4000.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 06, 2013, 07:58:24 pm
Well, I noticed it somewhere, but I don't know exactly where... If you look to the DS2000, DS4000 or DS6000 manual, you will see that these three manuals are very similar, especially in the trigger section.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 06, 2013, 07:59:45 pm
Well, I expect that alternate trigger should be in any middle class oscilloscope, am I right?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on March 06, 2013, 08:27:39 pm
Well, I expect that alternate trigger should be in any middle class oscilloscope, am I right?

Clearly Rigol looked at the market - and the way many people are using DSOs nowadays - and decided to offer Windows, Pattern, RS232/UART, I²C, and SPI as standard triggers in place of the usual Alternate - with another 7 types available as options. It's up to you to decide if that's what you need or not.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 06, 2013, 08:32:11 pm
Yes, DS2000 might be good for people who work mainly with digital signals... They will never need the cursors in XY mode, for example.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on March 12, 2013, 12:36:17 pm
Yes, DS2000 might be good for people who work mainly with digital signals... They will never need the cursors in XY mode, for example.

You are right, I was not able to get a stable display of two independent signals...   What a bummer.   May be this is firmware fixable...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on March 12, 2013, 01:04:08 pm
I asked John South at Emona and he chased the latest firmware, and still no official date for the next update.

Dave.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 12, 2013, 01:36:43 pm
zibadun Ask member named Drieg, he will give you advice. :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: KuchateK on March 12, 2013, 02:49:54 pm
I asked John South at Emona and he chased the latest firmware, and still no official date for the next update.
Is it Rigol's choice to postpone your review until you'll get final firmware version?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: olsenn on March 12, 2013, 03:00:05 pm
Quote
Is it Rigol's choice to postpone your review until you'll get final firmware version?

I'm assuming Dave already has the latest firmware. Rigol is likely still developing the new cheese.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on March 12, 2013, 06:12:31 pm
I asked John South at Emona and he chased the latest firmware, and still no official date for the next update.

Dave.

Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 12, 2013, 11:15:52 pm
If you look at the firmware changelog of Agilent DSOX2000, you will see that they released the firmware updates quite often, especially in beginning of 2011, when the scope was new. (I hope that they will allow the search function in future, the button is already there.  :) It is somewhere in this video... http://youtu.be/S62G0F4B1q0 (http://youtu.be/S62G0F4B1q0))
So dear Rigol guys, learn from Agilent, please.  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Uffe on March 13, 2013, 11:24:42 am
Very nice review, thanks!  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 12:30:54 pm
Very nice review, thanks!  :-+
Thanks Uffe!  And on another subject -  I had a very nice unexpected surprise last week: all of my options are now official versions  :)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=42960)

No, no, it didn't happen via a bug or hack  ;)  but via the good graces of my dealer,  Petr Šmíd (drieg (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=343)) of Silcon Electronics (http://www.silcon.cz/index.php?route=common/home) - and Rigol Technologies.

Apparently several weeks ago, unbeknownst  to me, Petr had suggested to Rigol that they support/credit my continual development of UltraVision utility software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/) by granting a full set of free options. They said they would think about it - and then he heard nothing about it for awhile. Then, while arranging other business with them last week, they suddenly sent the license code.

So - many thanks to Rigol for their show of support -- but most of all, my gratitude goes to Petr - who continually goes above and beyond the normal service one might expect. For me, this is just another example of why it's worthwhile to buy test and measurement equipment from someone you can/have develop(ed) a personal relationship with - even if it costs more money than the cheapest alternative.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 02, 2013, 12:44:35 pm
-  I had a very nice unexpected surprise last week: all of my options are now official versions  :)

Congratulations! It is a nice prize about your development work!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 12:47:40 pm
Congratulations! It is a nice prize about your development work!

Thanks EV! And perhaps it shows that Rigol starts to move more towards improving the relationship with their customers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: grego on April 02, 2013, 12:52:52 pm
 :-+ for you marmad - it's nice that they show a little support for you!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: digsys on April 02, 2013, 12:57:54 pm
CONGRATS !! Great to see stuff like this still happens .. sure adds another NOTCH to deciding to go with Rigol.
Now I'm definitely buying one of their 4000 scopes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dr.diesel on April 02, 2013, 01:01:15 pm
Now I'm definitely buying one of their 4000 scopes.

Likely you and I both my friend.  I'm going to wait until May with hopes they have one on display at the Dayton Ham Fest, I'd like to push a few buttons before I buy. 

If you end up with one be sure and post all about!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: digsys on April 02, 2013, 03:14:00 pm
Quote from: dr.diesel
If you end up with one be sure and post all about!
Well I'm slightly ahead of you. A colleague bought a DS4034 a couple months ago on my recommendation, and I loaned it for a
few weeks for a tough project. I was also handy to compare it against my older LeCroys and a cheapass SDS7102V Owon.
It IS a nice scope, but the LeCroys shitted all over it with triggering ability. I spent ages trying to get the Rigol to lock onto glitches
that I knew were there. The poor ol' Owon actually didn't fare too bad either, but it DID have some serious limitations in
triggering. For me, the Owon is damn handy to take out on HV EV jobs, because it's battery powered and damn cheap, so I don't care
if I pop it. But, I DO like the huge Rigol screen, and it has enough features to make the cheaper 100MHz version worthwhile for me.
BUT for my serious stuff, I'm on the lookout for a couple more older LeCroys.
The only new fly in the ointment is the GW Instek, which has suddenly become interesting (due to their recent IMPROVEMENT in
their communication skills). In all the years I bought their stuff, I never had a decent reply from sales / support, so I had given up
on them. Now the baskits seem to be a bit more friendly. I may wait to see how that pans out as well.
Guess May isn't that far away.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 03:28:16 pm
The only new fly in the ointment is the GW Instek, which has suddenly become interesting (due to their recent IMPROVEMENT in
their communication skills). In all the years I bought their stuff, I never had a decent reply from sales / support, so I had given up
on them. Now the baskits seem to be a bit more friendly. I may wait to see how that pans out as well.
Guess May isn't that far away.

Yes, it will be interesting to see Rigol's response to Instek's entry into this particular price range. They have priced their 2-channel 2000As exactly the same as Rigol's DS2000 prices   ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 02, 2013, 03:37:08 pm
 :-+  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gds-2000a-new-economic-oscilloscope-by-gw-instek-comes-to-market/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gds-2000a-new-economic-oscilloscope-by-gw-instek-comes-to-market/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 02, 2013, 03:41:03 pm
Anyway, is Rigol ever going to release the new DS2000 firmware, as they promised in november 2012, or so?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 03:50:07 pm
Anyway, is Rigol ever going to release the new DS2000 firmware, as they promised in november 2012, or so?

As mentioned elsewhere, the firmware is stable - and all of the operational bugs are minor. The only exception is when trying to read memory out of the scope - which can be, I admit, a problem for me in terms of the software I'm writing for it - but it doesn't stop me from using the scope in my day-to-day paid work in any way. I think they feel it's the next major update and they're taking their time with it to avoid adding new bugs. But I'm not sure what difference that makes to you - and why you keep posting this question over and over?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 04:30:11 pm
@Marmad ,Congrats on your options,
You have helped many owners and supported Rigol's DS2000 & more.
You well deserve it  :-+ :-+ :-+.   and maybe 200 MHz , later. 
Good to see your good work rewarded.   10 Tulip rating  ;)

Thanks Teneyes, I really appreciate it. Now I've gotten support from both you and Rigol (and Petr)  ;D  BTW, half of the 'support' you gave me went to support Wikipedia - so you've supported them too  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 02, 2013, 05:06:41 pm
Anyway, is Rigol ever going to release the new DS2000 firmware, as they promised in november 2012, or so?
and why you keep posting this question over and over?
Maybe because Dave will do a review when the new firmware is released. I am looking forward to it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on April 02, 2013, 07:43:56 pm
Nice work marmad on acquiring those Offcial option codes ;).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 07:58:49 pm
Nice work marmad on acquiring those Offcial option codes ;).

Thanks ve7xen - although it was just one code that did them all  :) 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: robrenz on April 02, 2013, 08:06:44 pm
They got off cheap, they should send you a 4000 series with all the options on for all the work you have done :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 08:34:12 pm
They got off cheap, they should send you a 4000 series with all the options on for all the work you have done :-+

Agreed! ;D   Thanks, I appreciate it - but in any case, I'm having fun working on it when I have the time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 03, 2013, 04:57:37 pm
Hi Guys,

I did some measurements with DS2102 today and the scope overshoot calculation seems strange,
my switching regulator is having huge ringings but definitely they are not not 47%?
Any thoughts.

Best Regards
Dimitar
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 03, 2013, 10:25:04 pm
Oh do they mean 0.47V instead of 47% ? :)
Dimitar
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on April 04, 2013, 07:48:52 pm
I don't see any transition on screen from which to measure the overshoot.  I thought overshoot was how much a step rise overshoots the final level, i.e. how much a 5V square wave overshoots 5V.  Your trace has no transition, just some ringing on a steady level.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 04, 2013, 08:58:11 pm
Hi TP,

Well in the manual it is just written:
"9. Overshoot: the ratio of the difference of the maximum value and top value of the waveform to the amplitude value."
So I have decided it can be generalized for my ringings. But Apparently the documentation is not fully correct and the scope
is searching the positive edge in order to do the calculations. As the name suggests actually :)

I have confirmed that in case of periodic square wave the Overshoot is showing the value properly.

Thanks
Dimitar
Title: DSOs & Nyquist or "just trusting your dso screen is true, is the path to ruin."
Post by: colinbeeforth on April 09, 2013, 05:15:46 pm

Hi, on page 44, scummos said:

"Yes, definitely. sin(x)/x interpolation is the "mathematically correct" way to reconstruct a signal, so there isn't really a reasonable alternative"

I have no wish to offend, but must humbly disagree, linear interpolation is a very suitable alternative, either that or LeCroy got it all wrong. (I've owned a 9310M for over 10 years - they got it right!)

The 93xx series scopes use linear interpolation, and maybe others, that I'm unaware of.  It's simple, and warns you clearly when you are at risk of believing the nonsense on the screen.  When an acquired waveform looks spikey (visually very distinctive), there are insufficient samples to make an intelligent guess about the incoming waveform.  Unlike an analogue scope, with any sampling dso, you cannot know what happened to the waveform between samples.  There is insufficient evidence between samples to even guess.

Yeah, you can spout Nyquist and sampling theory, but the honest truth is that between samples, we are left ignorant.  Using sinx/x interpolation, a dso reconstructs sine like curves through the real data points, however, if it draws any line that deviates from a straight line, the dso is guessing at what the input waveform might be.  What's that?  Your cheeks flush with anger, "according to Nyquist..."  The Nyquist criteria demand that for sinx/x reconstruction to be valid, there must not be any sine component exceeding half the sampling frequency.  Now, tell me how you can ensure that difficult requirement.  Yes you say, a totally brick wall filter at half sample rate in the front end.  Show me any scope that has a "Switch Nyquist Filter On" button.  Since the sample rate varies dramatically over the range of timebase settings, the Nyquist filter must shift its corner frequency from a few Hertz to maybe 500MHz - and that has to be brick wall filter so it reduces any sine component more than 1/2 sample rate, and it must recuce it below the minimum discernible level (8 bit= -48dB from adc fullscale).  Nyquist is a fine mathematical concept but <totally irrelevant> to modern dsos.

Show me the Nyquist filter on any dso and I'll accept it's sinx/x interpolation.  The theory works neatly for a theoretical dso, but isn't relevant to any scope on the market today - except perhaps for audio/vibration fft analysers, they often have proper Nyquist filters, and so sinx/x is valid.

A wide range lab or workbench dso can never have a Nyquist filter broad enough to validate sinx/x across its timebase range- it's not impossible, but very hard to build & and impossibly expensive.  Linear interpolation is also somewhat invalid, but so long as you have 10 to 20 samples for one cycle of the highest sine component, it works well enough.  Linear interpolation is also intrinsically safe, since it clearly alerts the user if undersampling occurs - waveforms go spikey.

And to the group member finding noise on the power supply, it looks like there are roughly 3 sinewaves in 20 nS, so that is around 150MHz, a signal like that is very likely to be rf pickup, not in your power supply.  Even a few inches of ground lead will serve as an antenna.  The built in frequency counter saying 8 something MHz is spurious.

Cheers, Colin


Title: Re: DSOs & Nyquist or "just trusting your dso screen is true, is the path to ruin."
Post by: marmad on April 09, 2013, 05:28:44 pm
I have no wish to offend, but must humbly disagree, linear interpolation is a very suitable alternative, either that or LeCroy got it all wrong. (I've owned a 9310M for over 10 years - they got it right!)
Hi Colin,

Thanks for your post. As discussed in another thread here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/does-agilent-x3000-series-use-linear-or-sin-xx-interpolation/msg213843/#msg213843) recently, one annoying thing about Rigol is the lack of written information about exactly what they're doing. They're clearly using sin(x)/x much of the time (when you have 'vectors' chosen - which is what the menu item is called) but perhaps they're using linear interpolation below a certain number of sample points per division? Here are three different images from (under)sampling a 5MHz sine and square wave (~15ns rise time) at 20MHz, 50MHz, and 100MHz. I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I'm not sure if the 20MSa/s image accurately portrays sin(x)/x interpolation.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 11, 2013, 10:20:18 am
Take the following with a grain of Rigol salt  ;)  but supposedly the new DS2000 firmware is due out by the end of this week. Of course, Rigol has mentioned - then ignored - other release dates, so it might not happen - but the specificity of it makes me think it will be fairly soon.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on April 11, 2013, 10:36:34 am
Taken with the proverbial grain... But thanks for keeping us up to date anyway Marmad :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 11, 2013, 10:49:25 am
Take the following with a grain of Rigol salt  ;)  but supposedly the new DS2000 firmware is due out by the end of this week.

I've heard that every week since before xmas  :-DD
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 11, 2013, 11:03:17 am
I've heard that every week since before xmas  :-DD

Oh well, it's the first time Drieg has told me a week; the last date he reported that Rigol told him was around the spring festival (Feb. 10th) - so... well, what can I say? Question your source  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 11, 2013, 11:45:48 am
 ;D :P :P :-+
Title: DSO interpolation and sampling
Post by: colinbeeforth on April 11, 2013, 01:38:13 pm

Hi marmad,

thanks for posting the pictures.  I see what you mean.  The spikey looking waveform demonstrates what undersampling looks like when using linear interpolation.  Yet other pictures I've seen on this thread demonstrate sinx/x interpolation on the DS2000 series.  It's very hard to understand which interpolation is being used when.

One of the cute things my LeCroy does (amongst many) is whenever the number of data samples per centimetre drops below 10 or so points, each individual data point is highlighted, so you can see what data points the linear interpolation is making its way through.  Without having to press buttons, or interpret numbers, or switch modes, the scope immediately and visually alerts you to the fact that it is close to undersampling.  Many scopes have an option to show dots or vectors.  But if sinx/x keeps the waveform looking rounded and believable, you don't know when to switch to dot mode to check for undersampling.

The lack of solid information in manuals seems to be a common problem with Chinese scopes.  I get the feeling that the Chinese manufacturers are completely paranoid about competition and the theft of their ideas.  They act like they are so fearful of copying that they won't even let their purchaser know how the scope works.  Most of the low cost DSOs I've had the misfortune waste time on are so poor that there's nothing worth stealing!  I'm delighted to see Rigol making  a big leap in construction quality and design with their new scopes.  I hope their development continues.  It's always a question though, when competition drives down prices, can any manufacturer then afford to provide the sort of support and software fixes that such heavily software based  scopes seem to need?  It will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Cheers, Colin
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jpb on April 11, 2013, 02:07:41 pm
I have a LeCroy WaveJet which only does linear interpolation, there is no Sin(x)/x option, so I'm pleased to see colinbeeforth's posts.

For normal captures I find I don't need interpolation anyway (it may be different when zooming in by a large factor), even at 1nsec a division, if I set the memory depth for 500 points it shows a thousand curves overlayed but as the trigger point is slightly different on each curve the dots are filled in without interpolation being needed. This can also be done for a single curve by turning Equivalent Time capture on.

The above relies on repetitive wave forms but then so does Sin(x)/x interpolation.

The one area where it might be nice is when zooming given that the WaveJet has "only" 500K of memory and not multi megabytes - I've not used the scope enough to know if this is a practical issue or not.
Title: Re: DSO interpolation and sampling
Post by: marmad on April 11, 2013, 02:38:22 pm
One of the cute things my LeCroy does (amongst many) is whenever the number of data samples per centimetre drops below 10 or so points, each individual data point is highlighted, so you can see what data points the linear interpolation is making its way through.  Without having to press buttons, or interpret numbers, or switch modes, the scope immediately and visually alerts you to the fact that it is close to undersampling.
That's a great idea - and I think it would be fairly easy to implement in a DSO with intensity grading. Maybe I'll try to put it into a future version of the control software I'm writing.

Quote
The lack of solid information in manuals seems to be a common problem with Chinese scopes.  I get the feeling that the Chinese manufacturers are completely paranoid about competition and the theft of their ideas.  They act like they are so fearful of copying that they won't even let their purchaser know how the scope works.
Perhaps this is part of the problem, but I get the sense that it also has to do with providing 'extras' (more $ outlay for them) above and beyond what is strictly required to manufacture and sell the item.  The same reason that most (all?) PC software for Chinese-made test equipment is crap.

The one area where it might be nice is when zooming given that the WaveJet has "only" 500K of memory and not multi megabytes - I've not used the scope enough to know if this is a practical issue or not.
I think the other thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/does-agilent-x3000-series-use-linear-or-sin-xx-interpolation/msg213843/#msg213843) discussing this shows that it's definitely a good feature to have when zooming at slower sample rates.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 11, 2013, 07:36:25 pm
Attached is an unedited and unsorted text file containing all of the SCPI variables (top paragraph) and commands (bottom paragraph) culled from the DS2000 firmware. The reason it's unsorted is because it makes it a bit easier to tell if a command is a sub-command (for example, all of the sub-commands of the :SYSTEM command follow each other, like :SYSTEM:ETIMpedence? [External Trigger impedance])

There is tons of stuff which is undocumented and/or commands that normally belong to the DS4000 series. I've tried only a small percentage of them - and of course, it's unlikely that any of these will unlock hidden features - but you never know. It's interesting to note that the DSO appears to respond to all of the commands - even if it won't let you change the settings. For example, when I query the DSO with a command that belongs to the DS4000:
:CHAN1:IMPedance?
It returns:
OMEG  (which means 1M)
But if I try to change it:
:CHAN1:IMPedance FIFTY
I get an "Invalid Input" message on the DSO screen.

One internal variable I was able to change is another feature which is on the DS4000 - the reference clock. The DS4000 can output the internal 10 MHz sample clock from a BNC connector at the rear panel - or accept an external 10 MHz clock there to synchronize multiple oscilloscopes. The command
:SYST:RCLOCK COUT (or CINT)
seems to change the variable internally on the DS2000 - although, of course, we don't have the BNC connector which brings the output/input from/to the mainboard.

There is lots of interesting stuff here - like the variables named D0 - D15 - clearly meant for an LA module. I've just started studying the file myself - but one thing I noticed quickly is the command WSAVe - which is a command for saving recorded frames. I tried to figure out the syntax to see if I could get it to work (there is a sub-command LOCation - which clearly goes with it) but either I couldn't find the correct syntax or - more likely - it's still unimplemented.

Anyway, check it out - it's very interesting - and please post back here if you find a hidden gem - or manage to get the DSO to do something strange  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Kaptein QK on April 11, 2013, 08:44:29 pm
Haha, I think many systems accepts that command! :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: wb3fsr on April 11, 2013, 11:04:12 pm
File with the SCPI variables  and commands (

Not in the File  :SYSTEM:BRICk=on

But it happens ;D |O

 :scared: Teneyes, That's not funny, I live in Brick! Really I do...  :-BROKE

Regards,

PeterV
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: John South on April 12, 2013, 03:23:02 am
Hi All - I have received the new official release firmware from Rigol today. It seems to fix some bugs and make general operation smoother. I don't currently have a list of changes but will try to find out. I'll be sending Dave a copy today. If you do update you have to follow the below method - Thanks Marmad hope you don't mind me doing a copy and paste.

Ok back to have a play and see what is fixed/changed


You do this by using two hands when booting up - one thumb on the 'Power On' switch - one thumb on the 'Help' button. When you press 'Power On', all of the scope LEDs will light for ONE SECOND - during that brief period, you must PRESS AND LET GO of the 'Help' button. It can be a little tricky, but if it works, bootup will stop before the Rigol logo with the 'SINGLE' button lit (if it doesn't, turn off power and try again until you get it). Then insert the USB stick with the file on it. The CH1 LED will flash as the DSO loads the file.

Once updating is finished, several of the LEDs will light up - and all flashing, etc. will stop. That's it! Remove the USB stick and reboot, and check your firmware version using the method listed above
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:56:27 am
Hi All - I have received the new official release firmware from Rigol today. It seems to fix some bugs and make general operation smoother. I don't currently have a list of changes but will try to find out. I'll be sending Dave a copy today. If you do update you have to follow the below method - Thanks Marmad hope you don't mind me doing a copy and paste.

Good to hear, John - Thanks for the post!  :)  I'm glad the info that I got from Petr (drieg) about the impending release was accurate. Personally, my main concern is that they've fixed the sample memory reading problem - but I'll be curious how many the bugs listed on the first page of this thread they've managed to get rid of.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 04:05:11 am
I don't currently have a list of changes but will try to find out. I'll be sending Dave a copy today. If you do update you have to follow the below method

BTW, John, is it possible to get a copy of the FW via you - or best we arrange it through our own respective dealers?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: John South on April 12, 2013, 07:25:47 am
Hi Marmad - best you get it through your respective dealers in case of any issues caused . If that's not possible let me know and I'm sure something can be arranged.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 11:02:22 am
* NEW FIRMWARE FOR DS2000: FW v.01.00.00.03 *

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=43911)

Over the last couple of months we've been giving Rigol the occasional hard time for being late with the promised firmware update. Well, it's now here - and although, after having tested it for an hour or so, I haven't seen any new features - Rigol appears to have gone down our bug list (from Page 1 of this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659)) and killed (most of) them one by one. All credit to Rigol - they have clearly responded to the complaints we've posted here - and though I haven't tested enough to be absolutely sure, I can only find one two remaining bugs from the list that they didn't get yet (Edit: As Dave pointed out - there is also still the update 'bug'; which makes it slightly complicated to update the FW [the GUI menu option doesn't work] - but that wasn't in the original list since it was assumed to be gone) .

Here is the list again from FW v.00.01.00.05 - and what appears to be fixed in FW v.01.00.00.03:

1) The scope appears to first clear the display then restart the sweep whenever moving the waveform vertically, changing the vertical or horizontal scale, moving trigger position, turning on/off channels, etc.

Fixed!! Yay, they are no longer clearing the waveform before moving it horizontally or vertically. It feels much more responsive.

2) The way the scope handles intensity grading in delayed sweep mode needs some work - it doesn't appear to be the same as if you just stop the sweep and zoom in via the horizontal scale.

Fixed

3) If you use the FINE horizontal scale adjust at scales >=20ms (Press -> [Horizontal] Menu -> ScaleAdjust -> Fine), the max/min horizontal trigger position becomes locked to the next lower major division*10/14 - instead of staying 10x/14x of whatever the actual setting is.

Fixed

4) When you turn on tracking cursors (if all cursors off), the measurement window doesn't appear.

Fixed

5) X-Y channels are reversed.

Fixed

6) Self-calibration will automatically expire any trial options currently running.

Not fixed.

7) AUTO routine sometimes fails to latch onto signals.

Unknown - the AUTO routine on every DSO that I've used fails sometimes. In any case, it was never a problem for me, so I'll let someone else test it.

8 ) The 'repeat' (looping) playback of frames recorded in Record Open mode doesn't seem to work correctly (hardly ever).

Fixed

9) There is a major bug involving the transfer of sample memory between the DSO and the PC - which you normally do using VISA and SCPI commands.

Fixed

10) There is a bug involving the reading of WFM files into DSO memory.

Fixed

11) Anti-Aliasing does not return to ON when the DSO is powered-up, even if the Menu setting shows it as "ON".

Fixed

12) A bug confined to the menu selection of Channel 1 = ON and Trigger = External keeps the sample rate stuck at 1G SA/s (instead of raising to 2G Sa/s - as it should be).

Fixed

13) When using both channels and attempting to read 7MB (or 28MB) sample depths out of the scope, the DSO transfers the wrong number of bytes (something 'random' between 6.9 - 7MB (or 27 - 28MB)).

Not fixed.

Good job, Rigol! Now, can you please add Save/Load for Recorded Frames and some other new features?  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on April 12, 2013, 11:47:24 am
Finally I got it too!
Good to hear, that the time and effort invested into reporting/confirming this buglist to/with Rigol yielded results :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 11:56:06 am
Congrats Marmad! This is very good result, if only one bug is not corrected!  :) ;D :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 12, 2013, 12:26:19 pm
Here is the list again from FW v.00.01.00.05 - and what appears to be fixed in FW v.01.00.00.03:

Nice work!  :-+
But what the heck are Rigol doing with their serial number system, can it get any more confusing?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 12:30:42 pm
Nice work!  :-+
But what the heck are Rigol doing with their serial number system, can it get any more confusing?

LOL - yes! And exactly how many decimal digits of version number do they actually need? Will this series be manufactured for the next 100 years?  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 12:40:34 pm
* NEW FIRMWARE FOR DS2000: FW v.01.00.00.03 *

I've been wondering about the firmware for these scopes since I got interested in buying one, but I've never seen on their site where the firmware is available for download. All I can find is a document that tells you how to install the firmware.

Where are the firmware updates located at the Rigol website?  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 12:55:33 pm
Where are the firmware updates located at the Rigol website?  :-//

I've never looked for FW updates at their website (always got it from my dealer or other users), but from what I understand, this is one area where Rigol could stand improvement (as well as in documentation, communication, etc. - the typical weak points of Chinese companies).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 01:01:07 pm
I've never looked for FW updates at their website (always got it from my dealer or other users), ...

What dealers provide the firmware?

How do other users get it?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Rednaxela on April 12, 2013, 01:12:11 pm
Huh, neat. After seeing Dave's video comparing the DS2000 series and DS1000 series I've been tempted to get a DS2072, but now after hearing about this firmware update I'm even more tempted to get a DS2072 now...

Thanks for checking this out Marmad :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 12, 2013, 01:14:52 pm
I've never looked for FW updates at their website (always got it from my dealer or other users), but from what I understand, this is one area where Rigol could stand improvement (as well as in documentation, communication, etc. - the typical weak points of Chinese companies).

Rigol have remarked to me (not to be taken as an official reason I suppose) that they didn't think their firmware update process is robust enough yet to encourage every man and his dog to attempt it. i.e. they don't want a flood of bricked scopes or support calls coming through.
They are certainly aware of how the lack of downloadable firmware is a not a good look for them, and are working on on it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 12, 2013, 01:17:29 pm
What dealers provide the firmware?

The one you bought it from should, if they are any good.

Quote
How do other users get it?

If you ask on here, the firmware fairy might pay you a visit  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on April 12, 2013, 01:17:46 pm
They are certainly aware of how the lack of downloadable firmware is a not a good look for them, and are working on on it.

Come-on Rigol... It only takes 10 minutes to put a few files on a server with a brick warning next to it :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 12, 2013, 01:20:01 pm
Come-on Rigol... It only takes 10 minutes to put a few files on a server with a brick warning next to it :D

Problem is, people never read anything  ::)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 01:20:54 pm
Rigol have remarked to me (not to be taken as an official reason I suppose) that they didn't think their firmware update process is robust enough yet to encourage every man and his dog to attempt it. i.e. they don't want a flood of bricked scopes or support calls coming through.
They are certainly aware of how the lack of downloadable firmware is a not a good look for them, and are working on on it.

Good point, Dave. I thought they had fixed this bug in FW 01.00.05 (not being able to update from the GUI menu) - but apparently not. It's rather complicated using the boot-loader, and even though we've posted the instructions (and warning) in this thread (and other threads in the forum as well), many people have locked up their scopes. I'll have to add this back into the bug list on page 1 once it's revised.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 01:24:05 pm
OK thanks guys. I was afraid I was just to dumb to locate it.

I wrote Rigol about it this morning let's see if I get a response.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 01:54:14 pm
OK, new firmware is intalled!   :) :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on April 12, 2013, 02:08:19 pm
Great work by Marmad for investigating and providing a list of bugs for the ds2000 scope. Also to my delight Rigol has responded by fixing a lot of reported issues. It makes me even more confident of buying a DS2102 very soon :)

Again, great work by Marmad and Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 12, 2013, 02:10:39 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 02:28:49 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

What's the matter, Wim - afraid you won't be able to downgrade?  ;)  That's the main question - and I haven't tried it yet; still hoping Drieg will answer the question before I take the risk  ;D  I suspect, because of the problems with the update procedure - that it's still possible to downgrade back to 05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 12, 2013, 02:36:17 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

What's the matter, Wim - afraid you won't be able to downgrade?  ;)  That's the main question - and I haven't tried it yet; still hoping Drieg will answer the question before I take the risk  ;D  I suspect, because of the problems with the update procedure - that it's still possible to downgrade back to 05.


Maybe.... :palm:


There are two loaders, i understand, one in the basic rom, and one in the firmware, so the buggy loader was
in the firmware, which only can be repaired in the latest version, so the maybe in the new version they have
repaired the loader, but you can only test that on the next next version


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on April 12, 2013, 02:36:22 pm
We now have many more option times for the screen saver too :)
Title: Rigol Firmware update IS NOT RELEASED to the USA yet
Post by: wb3fsr on April 12, 2013, 02:37:15 pm
Just spoke with Rick @ Tequipment who are located no more than five miles from me here on the Jersey Shore.

Rick contacted Rigol N/A and the word is: Not released to the US yet 'It's coming around the World' and it may take up to 30 days before we see it. 

Registered owners will receive an email blast when it's released for your geolocation.

Regards,

PeterV [REN] WB3FSR
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: quarks on April 12, 2013, 02:37:59 pm
Thanks a lot to marmad for his great Review and helpful information on this thread!!!

I am looking for a new scope and thanks to this topic I am considering the DS2000 series.
I have not yet decided if the higher prices for the DS2102/2202 models are worth to closer look at them.
Besides the obvious higher bandwidth and the better probes, are there any helpful advantages/things to take in consideration?

Title: Re: Rigol Firmware update IS NOT RELEASED to the USA yet
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 02:45:22 pm
Just spoke with Rick @ Tequipment who are located no more than five miles from me here on the Jersey Shore.

Rick contacted Rigol N/A and the word is: Not released to the US yet 'It's coming around the World' and it may take up to 30 days before we see it. 

Registered owners will receive an email blast when it's released for your geolocation.

Regards,

PeterV [REN] WB3FSR

Ha! It goes around the world in about 5 minutes.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on April 12, 2013, 02:48:36 pm
Quote
Ha! It goes around the world in about 5 minutes.  ;D

Exactly :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 02:49:02 pm
I am looking for a new scope and thanks to this topic I am considering the DS2000 series.
I have not yet decided if the higher prices for the DS2102/2202 models are worth to closer look at them.
Besides the obvious higher bandwidth and the better probes, are there any helpful advantages/things to take in consideration?

Thanks for your kind words. The probes are the same (RP-3300: 350MHz @ 10x) for all the models - so it's really just a bandwidth issue (plus you get the 2ns timebase setting in the DS2202).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: wb3fsr on April 12, 2013, 02:49:13 pm
Hi Mark,

Maybe they disabled their RTC...  :palm:

Oh, they have a different calendar.

PeterV
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 02:53:04 pm
Dear firmware fairy, please visit.   :-/O

Updated (per marmad):  :scared:  :scared:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 02:55:56 pm
Dear firmware fairy, please visit.   :-/O

Actually, Vasily, I think this is the correct dance to call the fairy:  :scared:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on April 12, 2013, 02:58:40 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

What's the matter, Wim - afraid you won't be able to downgrade?  ;)  That's the main question - and I haven't tried it yet; still hoping Drieg will answer the question before I take the risk  ;D  I suspect, because of the problems with the update procedure - that it's still possible to downgrade back to 05.

So far, I've seen two versions of DS2 bootloader and none of them was checking the firmware version, so if you use bootloader update method with HELP button, you should be able to downgrade. The bootloader remains unchanged after this FW uprade...

For the FW update itself - please use the bootloader method with HELP button described here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:00:37 pm
Maybe they disabled their RTC...  :palm:

You mean the clock for trial options?

Quote
Oh, they have a different calendar.

Huh? How do you mean?

Doh! ...finally got the joke  :-[   ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:02:32 pm
Updated (per marmad):  :scared:  :scared:

You should now have email fairymail  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 03:25:03 pm
the dance worked, thanks

Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

It doesn't work on the new firmware. "File version doesn't support!".   

I guess kind of like  "All your bases are belong to us!"  >:D
Title: Re: Rigol Firmware update IS NOT RELEASED to the USA yet
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:26:03 pm
Rick contacted Rigol N/A and the word is: Not released to the US yet 'It's coming around the World' and it may take up to 30 days before we see it. 

Well, I hate to break it to Rigol NA, but somehow it went from Australia to the EU to NA in 1 day.  ;D  I'm afraid all of us current owners (early adopters that we were) had been waiting too long already for this to wait anymore than a single day. If there had been a way to make it upgrade all of our DSOs simultaneously - we would have figured it out.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:30:47 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

It doesn't work on the new firmware. "File version doesn't support!".   

Well, honestly, it was being posted here exactly what was happening with the setup files (along with the files themselves) - what do you think? But still, if they have just altered the file system a bit, you might be able to do the same thing again.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 03:35:15 pm
Firmware fairy has been here too!

:scared:  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 12, 2013, 03:39:14 pm
the dance worked, thanks

Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

It doesn't work on the new firmware. "File version doesn't support!".   

I guess kind of like  "All your bases are belong to us!"  >:D

So then also your former setups, if ever used wont work anymore.
They changed the layout.

Did you use any setup files before, or other saved files, that wont work..??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:45:30 pm
So then also your former setups, if ever used wont work anymore.
They changed the layout.

Did you use any setup files before, or other saved files, that wont work..??

Yes, they've changed the file structure for setup files. I tried loading a few different ones but it doesn't work. But, Wim, why don't you just upgrade and check it out? I'm sure you can downgrade after - when I insert FW 05 on a USB stick, the message on the screen says something like "Older firmware detected - Proceed to downgrade?"
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 03:49:26 pm
Saved picture looks like this now:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 03:51:05 pm

So then also your former setups, if ever used wont work anymore.
They changed the layout.

Did you use any setup files before, or other saved files, that wont work..??

the 2ns one worked on the old fw. sorry I did not save any other setups.  If you have an old setup from 2072 I'd give it a try.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:54:03 pm
Saved picture looks like this now:

Wow, I hadn't noticed that - and I even captured an image to crop the System Info box for the initial bug post. That seems kind of a weird change to me - I'll have to edit the code in RUU to clip that off the top.

Why would I want my serial number attached to an image I'm going to presumably show others? Stupid.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 04:00:44 pm

Why would I want my serial number attached to an image I'm going to presumably show others? Stupid.

They could have put that info into Exif header like all the digital cameras do...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 04:24:08 pm
Here is a new bug. I noticed that rise time and fall time are the same on the earlier picture. Here is picture saved with RUU. It is on track auto mode. It is still not possible to save on track manual mode either with this firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 04:24:37 pm
Well, they wrote back fast -

*****

Hi,
To answer your question, we are planning to add that later but not yet. I'd say that today we only post and notify customers of important updates. Smaller updates we supply on a request basis. At any time you can call/email in and get the latest from us as long as there is an appropriate new version.

Thanks.
Steve

--
Steve Barfield
(NN5U)
Rigol Technologies, Inc.
7401 First Place
Suite N
Oakwood Village, OH 44146
440.232.4488 x114 (Office)
877.4RIGOL1 x114 (Toll Free)
440.232.4499 (fax)
404.374.5902 (Cell)
steve_barfield@rigoltech.com
www.rigolna.com (http://www.rigolna.com)
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 05:35:49 pm
I installed back the old firmware. This rise time bug is so bad that I am waiting next update.  :( :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 12, 2013, 06:48:58 pm
Well, what's the problem with the rise time bug? I don't understand it...
OK, it is an auto measurement fail.  :--
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 07:28:33 pm
Well, what's the problem with the rise time bug? I don't understand it...

mine does not have this problem.  also it stopped printing S/N and time on top of the pictures

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bmwnomad on April 12, 2013, 08:03:36 pm
I foolishly did a self-cal on my new Rigol DS2072.  I had thought that version .05 of the software (as shipped) fixed the losing the trial options bug, sadly reading back through this thread I discovered the bug is still there. 

Has a workaround been discovered to reenable the trials?  I think I still had over 2000 minutes left on them.  I have an email into Tequipment.net to see if they can be of any assistance.  Or am I just SOL?

Thanks,
Steve
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 08:41:44 pm
also it stopped printing S/N and time on top of the pictures

What caused it to stop - or - how many saves did you do before it stopped?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 08:48:16 pm
I intalled back the new firmware. In the picture is antisymmetric ramp wave. Rise time and fall time are both 160 ns!  |O |O :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 08:50:32 pm
I intalled back the new firmware. In the picture is antisymmetric ramp wave. Rise time and fall time are both 160 ns!  |O |O :-//

Yes, I confirmed the bug. I think the Rise time is actually just the Fall time repeated. In fact, if you chose either Rising Edge or Falling Edge with Auto cursor - it goes to the same edge.

It seems like it might be an easy bug to fix (pointer problem, etc) - I wonder if we can get Rigol to do it quickly?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 08:52:44 pm
I closed the scope and started it again and now it works correctly!!!!  :-+ :-+ :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 08:53:42 pm
I intalled back the new firmware. In the picture is antisymmetric ramp wave. Rise time and fall time are both 160 ns!  |O |O :-//

very strange, the only difference is that yours is 2202.  I've tried again and it shows different raise/fall.  Where does it place the markers if you switch to fall mode?

BTW, can you please post your 2ns setup file, I'll see if it works here with raise/fall times  ;) ;)



What caused it to stop - or - how many saves did you do before it stopped?

Didn't do anything. just powered off/on and no more header.  gremlins...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 08:54:15 pm
I closed the scope and started it again and now it works correctly!!!!  :-+ :-+ :-+

That's no solution. I've had my DSO on and off several times since changing firmwares - and it's having the bug right now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 08:57:07 pm
very strange, the only difference is that yours is 2202.  I've tried again and it shows different raise/fall.  Where does it place the markers if you switch to fall mode?

I doubt very much that this is related to model numbers - it's clearly an intermittent bug; you just haven't seen it yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:00:45 pm
Yes, I confirmed the bug. I think the Rise time is actually just the Fall time repeated. In fact, if you chose either Rising Edge or Falling Edge with Auto cursor - it goes to the same edge.

It seems like it might be an easy bug to fix (pointer problem, etc) - I wonder if we can get Rigol to do it quickly?

It seems that it helps, if the scope is started again with same setup!!??? :-// :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 09:06:33 pm
It seems that it helps, if the scope is started again with same setup!!??? :-// :-//

No, I don't think so - I've had the new firmware for 12 hours - turned it off and on several times.

And I think I just found another measurement bug........

Look at the displayed measurements of these two images - the only difference between the two is that I deleted the Width measurement on the 2nd image. Should the DSO not measure Rise and Fall just because it can't do Width?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:14:00 pm
BTW, can you please post your 2ns setup file, I'll see if it works here with raise/fall times  ;) ;)

Teneyes has it. If you can not get it from him, send a privat mail with your emai address to me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 09:19:04 pm
Hmmm... I start to think that the screwy measurement behavior is all caused by a single bug.

Here is another image - no current measurements being taken - and yet the average is changing constantly?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 09:24:08 pm
So, re-booting made all of the odd measurement behavior go away - for now. But that just means that the bug is intermittent - which might be worse for tracking it down. It also means that you might have to check for it anytime you want to start measuring.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:25:22 pm
No, I don't think so - I've had the new firmware for 12 hours - turned it off and on several times.

And I think I just found another measurement bug....  :(

Look at the displayed measurements of these two images - the only difference between the two is that I deleted the Width measurement on the 2nd image. Should the DSO not measure Rise and Fall just because it can't do Width?

OK, I have used this new firmware only two short times. These are anyway new bugs. Maybe somebody has fumbled with that old cursor window problem???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:30:59 pm
Tests continue on sunday. I keep this new firmware now for testing. There was no problem to downgrade it to the old one.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 12, 2013, 09:48:15 pm
I see that it was a good idea to buy a DSO-X 2002A instead. On the other hand, it has only 100kpoints memory per channel. You can buy an upgrade to 1Mpoints per channel. But somebody might need the 7Mpoints per channel of DS2000.  :-//
Here's my new machine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:58:49 pm
I see that it was a good idea to buy a DSO-X 2002A instead.

Nice scope! Cursor Dx has 7 digit precision!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 12, 2013, 10:01:13 pm
Well, it is funny. But no problem.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 10:08:16 pm
But somebody might need the 7Mpoints per channel of DS2000.  :-//

28Mpts per channel - and yes, I use it all the time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 10:15:12 pm
OK, I have used this new firmware only two short times. These are anyway new bugs.

I've only seen one new bug. It can cause some erratic behavior of some of the measurements;  it's initial cause is still unknown, but it is intermittent and seems to disappear with a reboot
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 10:26:17 pm
Nice scope! Cursor Dx has 7 digit precision!

@EV - Did you know that the number of digits of the cursor and other measurements is only related to the screen space? Inside the Rigol, those variables are real (floating point) numbers stored in scientific notation - and if you pass the data to a PC, you can display them with 8, 10, 12, etc. digit precision  - which is what you should always do with any DSO if you need high precision measurements.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 10:31:47 pm
I see that it was a good idea to buy a DSO-X 2002A instead.

We need to give something back to Rigol for the money they saved us.  So we are doing a volunteer Beta testing program for them.  Fair enough... I guess. :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 11:20:44 pm
also it stopped printing S/N and time on top of the pictures

My scope also stopped putting the 30 pixel top border (with model, serial number, and date/time stamp) on the image after the 2nd or 3rd save.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 13, 2013, 01:05:57 am
Ok, ACK on the raise/fall being equal.  Actually it doesn't matter what counters you select, they all just show the same damn number. And the Auto cursor shows the wrong stuff.
see screen - we've got 19.65 Megaseconds rise time and 1.9 Gigapecent Duty cycle  :-DD

one workaround is to use only a single metric at a time

(http://goo.gl/yijCz)

The good news is that the 2ns setup file is GOOD (tnx EV,Teneyes).  Also what do you know, the trials got unexpired.   :phew:



 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on April 13, 2013, 02:13:34 am
I updated too. Got a file from my retailer Drieg 5 hrs ago. Its more responsive when vertically positioning is the first thing I liked. Also no options status list on first screen at last.  No same rise & fall bug. I hate the white top with the Model# S/N and date-time on a saved screen. It should have been optional and only for user description/comment. On the older non 3D RUU it chews the bottom space even. On newer RUU it saves as a whole. Here is a screenshot (I cropped out the white top tag).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 13, 2013, 05:59:37 am
I've only seen one new bug.

At least one, I hope Rigol can correct it soon!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 10:38:39 am
No same rise & fall bug. I hate the white top with the Model# S/N and date-time on a saved screen. It should have been optional and only for user description/comment. On the older non 3D RUU it chews the bottom space even. On newer RUU it saves as a whole. Here is a screenshot (I cropped out the white top tag).

Hi Salas,

Thanks for your post, but I think it would be good if we owners start using the same terms for the various problems to avoid re-posts of any conflicting/overlapping information from previous posts. BTW, both versions of RUU use the same routine to get the image from the DSO (it expects 480 vertical pixels), so it shouldn't make a difference in terms of losing the bottom.

The measurement bug
What we know:
This has been confirmed by 3 people on at least 2 different model types. It is not specifically related to Rise and Fall measurements; when it's active it affects a number of different measurements in strange ways. It is intermittent - sometimes it's active; sometimes it's not. A reboot appears to make it disappear temporarily.
What we don't know:
What causes it to happen? Edit: Preliminary information in next post. This is vital information to try to find out in order to help Rigol fix it quickly.

30 pixel white border on top of images
What we know:
This has been confirmed by 3 people on at least 2 different model types. The DSO appears to just stop attaching it to exported images at some point. For me, it stopped after 2 images.
What we don't know:
What causes it to stop?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 11:40:48 am
EDIT: Updated information on the bug here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg217805/#msg217805)

Ok, the measurement bug can be invoked by re-selecting measurement items. At first I thought it was started by the screen-saver, but in fact, it can be triggered by just leaving the DSO turned on re-selecting measurement items.

To test for it, do the following:
(Re)Boot the DSO.
Send DSO a test signal with very different rise and fall times (e.g. sawtooth wave).
Select Rise and Fall measurements from left-side menu.
Confirm they are different.
Delete the measurements.
Leave DSO and return in 10 minutes.
Re-select Rise and Fall measurements from left-side menu.
Confirm they are now the same.
(Optional:) Turn on other measurements to confirm that there are other errors (+duty, frequency, etc).

First image taken just after reboot:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44067)

Second image taken after deleting and re-selecting measurements:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44069)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 12:08:19 pm
Update:

After deleting measurement items, using "All Items -> Recover" does not invoke the bug, but re-selecting them from the left-side menu does.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 12:12:28 pm
We need to give something back to Rigol for the money they saved us.  So we are doing a volunteer Beta testing program for them.  Fair enough... I guess.

Yes, it appears we Europeans and Australians are the Beta testers before North American release of the new firmware - and we've already discovered a bug   ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 13, 2013, 01:06:31 pm
@Marmad

Have you raported the bug to Drieg or Rigol? I can not use the scope today. No new bugs has appeared?  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 01:28:53 pm
@Marmad

Have you raported the bug to Drieg or Rigol? I can not use the scope today. No new bugs has appeared?  :-+

I sent Drieg an email (and a PM to John South). No new bugs, but I don't really have much time for any in-depth testing for a few days. I had only wanted to check the new firmware for the previous known bugs  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on April 13, 2013, 04:39:44 pm
BTW, both versions of RUU use the same routine to get the image from the DSO (it expects 480 vertical pixels), so it shouldn't make a difference in terms of losing the bottom.

It did it on RUU1.51 it chewed the bottom space that hosts up to 5 selected measurements. I try again now to post you a screen and it does OK. Has to do with rebooting maybe?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on April 13, 2013, 04:53:02 pm
Also no white top tag space appears on any version RUU screen save now. Not in a screen print to USB .bmp either. All I did was to self cal and turn off.  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 10:31:58 pm
It did it on RUU1.51 it chewed the bottom space that hosts up to 5 selected measurements. I try again now to post you a screen and it does OK. Has to do with rebooting maybe?

I grabbed my first image using RUU 2.0 and it also took off the bottom. But I don't know why the DSO stops putting on the border - could probably figure it out by downgrading then upgrading again, but it doesn't seem worth the effort since it wasn't a serious issue.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: John South on April 14, 2013, 01:54:33 am
Hi All - I am away from a DS2000 until Tuesday but have reported this to Rigol and hopefully should have a fix soon.

Thanks for your patience

John
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 14, 2013, 08:29:16 am
The white band on the picture has vanished here too. All measurements have the same value of +Width, which was set last. Rebooting gives correct values of measurements!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 12:22:00 pm
After playing around more with the new firmware, I have more information:

It appears that the measurement bug is simply invoked by re-selecting more than one item from the left-side menu. If any measurements are already selected when booting up (showing at the bottom of the screen), they work perfectly fine.

Edit (Copied from Post #1):
Current workarounds:
Only select 1 measurement for screen bottom.
Use 'Display All' (with 0 or 1 measurement at screen bottom).
Make sure System -> Startup is set to 'Last', then select the measurements you want at screen bottom and reboot.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 01:42:37 pm
I have just verified that self-calibration still erases the trial options in FW version 01.00.00.03.

Strange, I would have thought that was one bug that Rigol would really want to eliminate (to avoid complaints and requests for new codes from new owners).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 02:47:11 pm
Post #1 and #2 re-edited (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684) to show current state/list of known firmware bugs/version numbers and to allow easier linking for firmware instructions.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on April 14, 2013, 02:50:44 pm
I have just verified that self-calibration still erases the trial options in FW version 01.00.00.03.

Strange, I would have thought that was one bug that Rigol would really want to eliminate (to avoid complaints and requests for new codes from new owners).

I can confirm, that FW 00.00.01.00.05 also still has this issue!

Now I can't test the nice serial decode feature today :-(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 14, 2013, 04:05:39 pm
Is there any running hours or power-up times counter on Rigol scopes?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 04:14:17 pm
I've been running some tests to try to determine what type/when different interpolation methods are used by the Rigol DS2000 (for another thread), and I thought I'd re-post my findings here.

It seems (although I might be incorrect about this) that the Rigol does not use the timebase setting to determine the interpolation method - but instead uses the sample rate. From what I've discovered so far, it appears that:

If the sample rate <= 500MSa/s it uses linear interpolation.
If the sample rate >= 1GSa/s it uses sin(x)/x interpolation

Images here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg218523/#msg218523)

It appears that Rigol is being cautious by making sure only to use sin(x)/x interpolation when the signal is being band-limited above the Nyquist rate (for 1GS/s this is 500MHz and above; so should be well attenuated by the 200MHz bandwidth limit of the DS2000 series). * Thanks to jpb for this observation  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jpb on April 14, 2013, 04:26:06 pm
I've been running some tests to try to determine what type/when different interpolation methods are used by the Rigol DS2000 (for another thread), and I thought I'd re-post my findings here.

It seems (although I might be incorrect about this) that the Rigol does not use the timebase setting to determine the interpolation method - but instead uses the sample rate. From what I've discovered so far, it appears that:

If the sample rate <= 500MSa/s it uses linear interpolation.
If the sample rate >= 1GSa/s it uses sin(x)/x interpolation

Based on the math (in theory, using sin(x)/x can accurately reconstruct the waveform assuming a sample rate at least 2.5 times the highest frequency component - as opposed to linear interpolation, which requires a sample rate at least 10 times higher), it seems like it would make more sense the other way around - although I guess the fact that it uses linear interpolation at lower sample rates means that (if you don't pay attention) you're more likely to quickly realize you're undersampling.
I responded on the other thread - but I thought I'd make the same point here for the benefit of those who only read the one thread.

My understanding is that sinc(x) attenuation will give you aliasing if the original signal contains components above the Nyquist frequency (the higher components will fold back into the pass band). Given the scope bandwidth is around 200MHz or perhaps nearer 230MHz at 500MS/s the Nyquist frequency is only 250MHz so will only be attenuated by a bit more than 3dB hence using sinc(x) interpolation risks giving wrong answers. At 1GS/s the Nyquist frequency is 500MHz and for a 200MHz BW(3dB), 500MHz will be attenuated by around 9dB (that is power not amplitude) so the assumption that the higher components are not there is a better approximation.

Linear interpolation is cruder but will be less wrong in that it won't introduce false peaks though it will introduce discontinuities in the gradient.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 14, 2013, 04:37:04 pm
It appears that the measurement bug is simply invoked by re-selecting more than one item from the left-side menu. If any measurements are already selected when booting up (showing at the bottom of the screen), they work perfectly fine.

It is possible to do one measurement correctly without booting. Clear all measurements and select only one measurement from the side menu.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 04:52:42 pm
It is possible to do one measurement correctly without booting. Clear all measurements and select only one measurement from the side menu.

Um... that could be why I wrote, "...re-selecting more than one item..."  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 05:31:18 pm
BTW, as long as you clear the measurements displayed at the bottom of the screen (if you have more than one), you can also use 'Display All', which will show the correct measurements.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: John South on April 15, 2013, 05:55:25 am
Hi All - Rigol are looking at another firmware release in about 2 weeks. This will fix the measurement ,and hopefully other , bugs.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 15, 2013, 06:24:48 am
Hi All - Rigol are looking at another firmware release in about 2 weeks. This will fix the measurement ,and hopefully other , bugs.

Thanks for the update, John.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on April 15, 2013, 07:26:29 am
John can you pass user requests to Rigol for adding cool stuff in the future? :) If yes, I would propose amber, green, b&w color schemes & digital filter sub menu please.  8)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 15, 2013, 10:35:36 am
Hi jpb
Quote
I responded on the other thread - but I thought I'd make the same point here for the benefit of those who only read the one thread.

My understanding is that sinc(x) attenuation will give you aliasing if the original signal contains components above the Nyquist frequency (the higher components will fold back into the pass band). Given the scope bandwidth is around 200MHz or perhaps nearer 230MHz at 500MS/s the Nyquist frequency is only 250MHz so will only be attenuated by a bit more than 3dB hence using sinc(x) interpolation risks giving wrong answers. At 1GS/s the Nyquist frequency is 500MHz and for a 200MHz BW(3dB), 500MHz will be attenuated by around 9dB (that is power not amplitude) so the assumption that the higher components are not there is a better approximation.

Linear interpolation is cruder but will be less wrong in that it won't introduce false peaks though it will introduce discontinuities in the gradient.

In my opinion the amount of aliasing will depend only of the sampling frequency and the analog bandwidth of the scope.
I am wondering if they actually do up-sampling and post digital filtering of the data before showing on screen?
If they do real interpolation then sinc is more short band interpolation (brick wall ideal filtering at Nyquist)
than linear which is sinc^2 like filtering with node at the sampling frequency. 

Regards
Dimitar
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jpb on April 15, 2013, 11:11:39 am
Hi jpb
Quote
I responded on the other thread - but I thought I'd make the same point here for the benefit of those who only read the one thread.

My understanding is that sinc(x) attenuation will give you aliasing if the original signal contains components above the Nyquist frequency (the higher components will fold back into the pass band). Given the scope bandwidth is around 200MHz or perhaps nearer 230MHz at 500MS/s the Nyquist frequency is only 250MHz so will only be attenuated by a bit more than 3dB hence using sinc(x) interpolation risks giving wrong answers. At 1GS/s the Nyquist frequency is 500MHz and for a 200MHz BW(3dB), 500MHz will be attenuated by around 9dB (that is power not amplitude) so the assumption that the higher components are not there is a better approximation.

Linear interpolation is cruder but will be less wrong in that it won't introduce false peaks though it will introduce discontinuities in the gradient.

In my opinion the amount of aliasing will depend only of the sampling frequency and the analog bandwidth of the scope.
I am wondering if they actually do up-sampling and post digital filtering of the data before showing on screen?
If they do real interpolation then sinc is more short band interpolation (brick wall ideal filtering at Nyquist)
than linear which is sinc^2 like filtering with node at the sampling frequency. 

Regards
Dimitar

Perhaps I misused the term aliasing - I was using it as short hand for the erroneous results arising from sinc(x) interpolation when the signal is not band limited to below the Nyquist frequency.

This (rather old) LeCroy app note gives some experimental results.

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf)

Presumably upsampling and then digital filtering would be equivalent to linear interpolation followed by a low pass digital filter.

As an aside, I've been looking at arbitrary waveform generators recently and Agilent with their latest low end ones use up sampling followed by a low pass filter to reduce the jitter inherent with using a fixed sampling clock rate but that is at much lower frequencies (40MHz or less), the sampling rate is upped from 250MS/s to something over 1GS/s but in a scope they are already at rates above 1GS/s and also are trying to maximise the waveforms per second so I wouldn't think that they do it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 15, 2013, 07:08:49 pm
Following up on my post from yesterday (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg217917/#msg217917) about interpolation on the DS2000 - here are two images of a 100MHz sine wave:

This is the sine wave sampled at 500MSa/s - and the Rigol automatically uses linear interpolation:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44455)


This is the same sine wave sampled at 1GSa/s - and the Rigol automatically uses sin(x)/x interpolation:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44457)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on April 15, 2013, 10:00:26 pm
Are you sure that second image is non-linear? To my eye, it could easily be linear with twice as many points, and it looks a bit funny for a perfect sin.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 15, 2013, 10:39:23 pm
Are you sure that second image is non-linear? To my eye, it could easily be linear with twice as many points.
Seriously? You think that's how the image would look if connected with straight line segments? With 5 sample points per division?  ;D  Well, here it is for you  - un-interpolated. Print it out, get out a ruler and pencil, and give it a go  ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44471)

Quote
...and it looks a bit funny for a perfect sin.
There is no such animal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 15, 2013, 11:17:13 pm
As I see it the Rigol collects the data points and then a display process occurs to create the vector display
But only the data points are saved in the save Waveform files.

There is acquire memory and there is display memory.

The acquire memory contains the sampled points - and it can be anything from 28 bytes (with 2 channels) to 56MB (or up to at least 114MB when segmented). That is what is saved in WFM and (if "Maximum" selected) CSV files.

The display memory contains an intensity map built-up from many waveform captures - this is what is saved in TRC files.

Also in another portion of (acquire or display) memory, an interpolation of the last/current waveform capture is stored; it is always 1400 bytes (unless the DSO is stopped and the timebase is increased past the sample length). It consists of endpoints of vectors, and is what is saved in CSV files (if "Displayed" selected), and also what RUU uses to display the waveform.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 16, 2013, 08:08:42 am
Hi Guys,

Few comments I have in mind please correct me if you don't agree with something

Quote
Perhaps I misused the term aliasing - I was using it as short hand for the erroneous results arising from sinc(x) interpolation when the signal is not band limited to below the Nyquist frequency.

Well aliasing in my opinion is not a result of an interpolation. It is actually result of a sampling of the analog signal with bandwidth more than Nayquist rate (half of sampling rate). In this case we have 'folding' of the high frequency components in the signal main frequency band and this is unrecoverable by any means.(We have to increase the scope sampling frequency (reduce time base) to fix). If however the Nyquist rule is met then we can use interpolation to recover (show on screen) the exact 'analog' signal (this is done by interpolation) 
Interpolation is a way to reconstruct the analog signal from the sampled data and this is what the DSO tries to do - after all we want to see picture on screen as close as possible to the original analog signal. 

-If we know that our analog signal has no energy above current scope Nayquist rate (fs/2) we should use sinc interpolation.
For example if I have 100Mhz scope and I think I have analog signal covering roughly those 100Mhz and if i sample with 500Msamples/s (to get bigger time frame for example) It is very important to turn sinc interpolation on, as in this case for the fast frequency components the scope got only 5 points per period and interpolation will greatly provide the 'true' analog behavior in between sampled points.     

-If we know we sample much faster then the signal band width (20 times for example) then we know we have captured all signal details with enough sample points so interpolation is not that important anymore in my opinion.

- If we sample with rate below signal bandwidth*2 we know we have aliasing for sure. This is more subtle and my thinking are as follows:
In this case sinc interpolation will show on screen picture less accurate then if we use linear interpolation. This is because sinc interpolation means filtering with ideal brick wall with cut at fs/2. Linear interpolation is equivalent with filtering with sinc^2 filter with nod at fs - bigger bandwidth of interest, so in this case we get more true signal energy shown on screen. 
Probably this is why Roigol switches the interpolations (linear sinc) as it was mentioned before?

- If we have analog signal 1Ghz band but my scope is only 100Mhz and I have set fs=1Gsamples/s then we don't have much aliasing because the scope analog channel filter will probably drop down a lot at the Nyquist rate 500MHz and we will see on scope the 'true' part of the signal with energy in the band below 100MHz. (in this case we have no clue about the part above 200MHz let say but important is that this doesn't affect the accuracy of what scope shows)   

Quote
This (rather old) LeCroy app note gives some experimental results.
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf)
Thank you jpb it is very useful readings!
Probably someone can try with Rigol DS2000 to experiment with the edge and sine wave test
they described in this document?

Quote
Presumably upsampling and then digital filtering would be equivalent to linear interpolation followed by a low pass digital filter.

Well I think this is the way Rigol actually do the interpolation I think. Yes this is a complex thing if you need to do on the whole sampled data real time but note that they probably do this only on the sampled data currently fit on the screen (1400 byte as Marmad noted).
So what they do I think for sinc interpolation is check how many original data points fit in the current screen.
Calculate how much they need to up sample so have enough points on screen - n. Insert n-1 zeros in between each original sample points and then filter with sinc filter (approximation of it )(ideal brick wall fs/2 in frequency domain) and the result is 1400 bytes shown on screen. 
Of course if we have sampled data on the current screen more then 1400 bytes no need to sinc interpolate.     

Regards
Dimitar
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 09:20:01 am
So what they do I think for sinc interpolation is check how many original data points fit in the current screen.
Calculate how much they need to up sample so have enough points on screen - n. Insert n-1 zeros in between each original sample points and then filter with sinc filter (approximation of it )(ideal brick wall fs/2 in frequency domain) and the result is 1400 bytes shown on screen. 
Of course if we have sampled data on the current screen more then 1400 bytes no need to sinc interpolate.     

Actually, the waveform display area is only 700x400 pixels on screen; the 1400 bytes are endpoints of vectors.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 16, 2013, 03:46:21 pm
Here is firmware upgrade procedure from Rigol:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 03:54:36 pm
Here is firmware upgrade procedure from Rigol:
Yes - the same one as here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2013, 04:19:52 pm
Firmware upgrade of Agilent DSOX2000 series is much more simple... http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=CZ&nid=-33575.970747&id=2014479 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=CZ&nid=-33575.970747&id=2014479)
Quote
To update your oscilloscope's firmware, do one of the following:

    Place the file on a USB flash drive, connect it to the oscilloscope, press [Utility] > File Explorer, select the file; then, press Load File.
    If your oscilloscope is on the network: you can place the file on your computer, access the oscilloscope's Web Interface (see the User's Guide for details), click Instrument Utilities, select Firmware Version, browse to select the file; then, click Install.

After your oscilloscope's firmware is updated, check the calibration status: press [Utility] > Service > User Cal Status. If "Results: OK" is displayed, you do not need to recalibrate. If calibration is required, press the Start User Cal softkey.
There is even no talk about the uninterruptible power supply. No instrument damage warning. Probably Agilent uses an advanced firmware protection or something.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: grego on April 16, 2013, 04:31:30 pm
Firmware upgrade of Agilent DSOX2000 series is much more simple... http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=CZ&nid=-33575.970747&id=2014479 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=CZ&nid=-33575.970747&id=2014479)
Quote
To update your oscilloscope's firmware, do one of the following:

    Place the file on a USB flash drive, connect it to the oscilloscope, press [Utility] > File Explorer, select the file; then, press Load File.
    If your oscilloscope is on the network: you can place the file on your computer, access the oscilloscope's Web Interface (see the User's Guide for details), click Instrument Utilities, select Firmware Version, browse to select the file; then, click Install.

After your oscilloscope's firmware is updated, check the calibration status: press [Utility] > Service > User Cal Status. If "Results: OK" is displayed, you do not need to recalibrate. If calibration is required, press the Start User Cal softkey.
There is even no talk about the uninterruptible power supply. No instrument damage warning. Probably Agilent uses an advanced firmware protection or something.

Same on the Instek. :P  So there.  epeen! epeen!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 04:36:16 pm
Firmware upgrade of Agilent DSOX2000 series is much more simple...

Same on the Instek. :P  So there.  epeen! epeen!

Ok, I'm convinced! The huge 'difficulty' of upgrading firmware is the last straw.  ;D  I'm selling my Rigol DS2000 and buying a less powerful Agilent DSOX2000!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2013, 04:43:01 pm
Anyway I am not going to try what happens if there is a power cut during firmware upgrading of DSOX-2002A. I hope that nothing happens, but who knows? :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 16, 2013, 04:49:52 pm
Ok, I'm convinced! The huge 'difficulty' of upgrading firmware is the last straw.  ;D  I'm selling my Rigol DS2000 and buying a less powerful Agilent DSOX2000!

I do not sell anything. I only buy more. Selling is problem of my heirs.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 04:50:46 pm
There is even no talk about the uninterruptible power supply. No instrument damage warning. Probably Agilent uses an advanced firmware protection or something.

This is just overly cautious language from a manufacturer. Cutting power to any electronic device when it's re-writing internal memory is never a good idea. But the UltraVision series have a boot-loader built into non-volatile memory that makes it almost impossible to brick the device - since you can, in theory, always recover from half-written firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 05:40:02 pm
*** The trail options DO NOT disappear anymore after a self-cal, they where there again
before and after i had my 1703 minutes left...

Sorry to disagree, but I specifically installed trial options using a new license code then did a self-cal. and they vanished. So I don't know what happened when you did it, but when I did it they were erased. So I don't think it's wise to tell people it's been solved yet until we know the parameters of exactly when it does/doesn't erase them.

Quote
The header on the top of a print screen can be changed a little by changing some setup
see attached file, where now the date is left out. It seems they put the para.txt in the file.

As mentioned a few times, the header disappears after a couple of saves.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 05:52:49 pm
Other people dont get it back, but on my machine...it  is strange it did not happen on my DSO ?????

It's possible that it happened to me because I had just installed a new trial license key (i.e. not factory-installed one), but I don't know. Using SCPI commands, you can install any license key - and uninstall official keys. So since I had an extra trial key, I uninstalled my official one and installed the trial key. Then I used it for ~2.5 hours - then tried a self-cal - and it lost the remaining 2000 minutes.  :(  So it's still not clear what provoked the bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2013, 05:56:43 pm
Has somebody tried to connect the scope to a USB inkjet printer? Not an important feature, but this doesn't work on my DSOX2002A, it has no Pict Bridge support. Rigol should have this, according to the manual.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 05:58:10 pm
RS233 Options
Does anyone know it there is any differences in the functions of
the RS232 Decode function:
 on the   DS2000    at $222
 on the   DS4000    at $500
 on the   DS6000    at $750   

Are the functions just crippled by menu items???

I doubt there is any difference - but you could find the documentation for each one and compare.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 06:11:24 pm
EDIT: I think the header is there for factory use, after some time it disappear, normally in the factory
they make a print screen for admin. After shipping it is gone by time.

Yes, I think so too. It also looks exactly like the header on the Agilent X Series images  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 06:13:47 pm
UPDATE, a second self -cal and the options are gone... |O
Totally, even the option box is grade out.... |O

Oh well - you have to test the recovery method on this FW version anyway, no?  ;D

And if that doesn't work - then it's time to downgrade and get them back  ;)

At least they don't vanish during an upgrade - which is probably the most important thing!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 08:18:02 pm
Just got the following Version Notes doc for the latest version from Jason Chonko, Apps Engineer at Rigol North America.

Interesting stuff!

Edit: Funny - I was just writing out a list of the standard triggers for a different thread - and I noticed that Runt was now included. And sure enough, in the Version Notes, it mentions Runt has been changed to a standard trigger (not options package anymore).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 08:22:24 pm
These bits are interesting:

"Added SCPI command for decoding data"
"Added option for power analysis (PC software)"
"Support DS2000-S series"

Version: 00.01.00.00.03   Date: 2013-4-1

E: Enhancements / M: Modification

1.      Added SCPI command for decoding data   E
2.      Fixed the cursor window error when change cursor mode(201303000020)   M
3.      Added option for power analysis (PC software)   E
4.      Fixed screen saver error when the scope have a trial license   M
5.      Fixed Anti-Aliasing error when reboot the unit   M
6.      Optimized the sampling rate in AC or Ext trigger   E
7.      Fixed “open record” error    M
8.      Optimized the trace display in normal trigger mode when change the horizontal or vertical setting   E
9.      Optimized the speed of PNG file storage   E
10.      Fixed the data error of .csv file   M
11.      Increased the sampling rate in ROLL mode   E
12.      Switched the position of channel in XY mode   M
13.      Optimized the compatibility for updated flash chip and writing/reading speed   E
14.      Changed the RUNT as standard trigger    M
15.      Support DS2000-S series   E
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 08:29:27 pm
I just ran a quick file compare of the FW from Jason versus the FW gotten through John South - but they are identical - so no fix yet to the measurement bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2013, 08:38:14 pm
What's DS2000-S series?
Anyway, I like the DS2000's easy replaceable fuse. Most scopes have the fuse inside, often even solderer (Tek DPO2000, DSOX2000...)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 09:12:49 pm
I'm not sure if the DS6000 Demo Board has been mentioned before on EEVBlog or not (a quick search didn't turn up anything), but I found it at Batronix while searching for any possible new UltraVision products - and I hadn't seen it before and thought it was kind of interesting. It lists at €163 / $225 (excl.), and I've attached the user guide below.

"This Demo board is used to illustrate the basic functions of the oscilloscope. It is powered through USB port and can output 25 kinds of signals for the illustration of oscilloscope functions, i.e. sine, video (PAL/NTSC), AM Modulation, Sweeps, many digital signals and lots more. Delivery including Demo Board, USB Cable, CD with manual."

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44584)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: thm_w on April 16, 2013, 09:19:52 pm
What's DS2000-S series?
Anyway, I like the DS2000's easy replaceable fuse. Most scopes have the fuse inside, often even solderer (Tek DPO2000, DSOX2000...)
Looks like a 25MHz signal generator added internally to the DS2000: http://cn.rigol.com/download/China/DS/Datasheet/DS2000_DataSheet_CN.pdf (http://cn.rigol.com/download/China/DS/Datasheet/DS2000_DataSheet_CN.pdf)

Translated specs:
Quote
Number of Channels 2
Sampling rate 200MSa / s
Vertical resolution of 14bits
Maximum frequency of 25MHz
Standard waveforms sine, square wave, pulse, triangle wave, noise, DC
Arbitrary Waveform Sinc, the index rose, the index fell, ECG, Gauss, haversine
The sinusoidal frequency range from 0.1Hz to 25MHz
Flatness of ± 0.5dB (relative 1kHz)
Harmonic distortion of-40dBc
Spurious (non-harmonic)-40dBc
1% total harmonic distortion
Signal-to-noise ratio 40dB (TBD)
Square / pulse frequency range of 0.1Hz to 15MHz
Rise and fall time <15ns
Overshoot <5%
Duty cycle of 10-90%
Duty cycle resolution of 1% or 10ns (whichever is the greater value)
The minimum pulse width of 20ns
Pulse width resolution of 10ns or 5 (whichever is the larger value)
Jitter 500ps
Triangle wave frequency range of 0.1Hz to 100kHz
Linearity 1%
Symmetry 0-100%
Noise bandwidth of 25MHz (typ)
Arbitrary wave frequency range of 0.1Hz to 10MHz
Waveform length 2 ~ 16k points
Internal storage of 4
Frequency accuracy of 100ppm (less than 10kHz) 50ppm (greater than 10kHz)
Resolution of 0.1Hz or 4, whichever is greater
The amplitude output range 20mVpp ~ 5Vpp, high impedance 10mVpp ~ 2.5Vpp, 50ohm
The resolution 100uV or 3, whichever is the greater value
Accuracy of 2% (1kHz)
DC offset range ± 2.5V, high impedance ± 1.25V, 50ohm
The resolution 100uV or 3, whichever is the greater value
Accuracy of 2% (1kHz)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 09:50:34 pm
Looks like a 25MHz signal generator added internally to the DS2000:

Dual channel AWG - nice!  ;D Also, nice find - thm_w - thanks! I just started a new thread with this info since I think many people will be very interested.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on April 16, 2013, 10:49:06 pm
Seriously? You think that's how the image would look if connected with straight line segments? With 5 sample points per division?  ;D  Well, here it is for you  - un-interpolated. Print it out, get out a ruler and pencil, and give it a go  ;)
What? Of course seriously! Did you think I was trolling you or something?

The peaks are the only part where the curve would be obvious in your capture, and many of them are oddly straight with harsh changes in slope.  So I did what you suggested, more or less.  I took your image into a paint program, drew vertical grid lines every 10 pixels (as measured for your dots display), lined up the grid lines with the non-smooth parts of the wave (they do coincide), and played around drawing lines.  The peaks obviously aren't pointy enough, but If those lines just continued straight for a few more pixels then the whole thing would basically be straight line segments.

It would have been a lot clearer with a square-er aspect ratio per period, I think.

Quote
Quote
...and it looks a bit funny for a perfect sin.
There is no such animal.
I guess that's what it boils down to!  I was expecting that the interpolation's synthetic sine would be pretty faithful, but I guess there's some rounding or error accumulation or whatever that causes it to flatten up at that aspect ratio.   Interestingly, Teneyes' 6pt has just a couple pixels more per period, but the sine looks much better.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 11:18:54 pm
The peaks obviously aren't pointy enough, but If those lines just continued straight for a few more pixels then the whole thing would basically be straight line segments.
I just took the sample points image into Photoshop and connected the first few segments. I don't really think you could mistake the difference between this and sin(x)/x interpolation - although granted, it would perhaps be more obvious if the sine wave cycles were bigger (shorter timebase).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44589)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 17, 2013, 12:03:02 am
I'm not sure if the DS6000 Demo Board has been mentioned before on EEVBlog or not (a quick search didn't turn up anything), but I found it at Batronix while searching for any possible new UltraVision products - and I hadn't seen it before and thought it was kind of interesting. It lists at €163 / $225 (excl.), and I've attached the user guide below.

Rigol are supposed to be getting me one of those, looks interesting.
They should most certainly get you one too!
I also have a Tek MSO demo board.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 17, 2013, 12:08:02 am
Rigol are supposed to be getting me one of those, looks interesting.
They should most certainly get you one too!

I agree on both points! ;D  Seriously though, it does look interesting - a little like a response by them to the educational options offered by the Agilent X2000/3000 (which I always thought were pretty cool).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 17, 2013, 12:37:34 am
Not sure if Rigol can be used by students at school 8 hours a day for say 10 years? Rigol is better for hobbyists who want a bang per buck.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: grego on April 17, 2013, 02:51:51 am
I'm not sure if the DS6000 Demo Board has been mentioned before on EEVBlog or not (a quick search didn't turn up anything), but I found it at Batronix while searching for any possible new UltraVision products - and I hadn't seen it before and thought it was kind of interesting. It lists at €163 / $225 (excl.), and I've attached the user guide below.

"This Demo board is used to illustrate the basic functions of the oscilloscope. It is powered through USB port and can output 25 kinds of signals for the illustration of oscilloscope functions, i.e. sine, video (PAL/NTSC), AM Modulation, Sweeps, many digital signals and lots more. Delivery including Demo Board, USB Cable, CD with manual."

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44584)

It's got the Instek one beat - Instek demo board only does 10 analog and 5 digital/LA functions for $205 list (so probably about $185 discounted).

I might have to get me one of these to play around with.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on April 17, 2013, 06:20:25 am
I just took the sample points image into Photoshop and connected the first few segments. I don't really think you could mistake the difference
Obviously not those sample points. I didn't have access to them at first, and even now I have no reason to think they match exactly with the vector capture. The trigger setting is different, and dots/vectors trigger a little differently.

Compare the peak from your interpolated capture with one that has plenty of data and see how much rounder the correct curve is! It wasn't until I tried it that I could see how it didn't work out, but it's really not far off.  I can draw lines that only differ significantly at the very top of the peak.  If I then chop off the pointy bit, I get something very similar to your capture (effectively adding just one more sample per peak.)

So maybe now you can see where I was coming from.  But either way, sorry to ask and I won't take any more of this long thread with what's way off topic.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 17, 2013, 10:21:42 am
Obviously not those sample points. I didn't have access to them at first, and even now I have no reason to think they match exactly with the vector capture. The trigger setting is different, and dots/vectors trigger a little differently.
The trigger setting didn't really matter - here's another image I just captured of the same 100MHz uninterpolated sine wave (sorry - slightly less amplitude due to a loose 50 Ohm terminator) with the trigger set to the previous 180mV level. It's almost the same image as before - with the dots just shifted horizontally.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44625)


Quote
Compare the peak from your interpolated capture with one that has plenty of data and see how much rounder the correct curve is!
DSOs are imperfect devices - and besides doing the sin(x)/x interpolation, the scope is doing other transformations to the sample data to get it to the display (e.g. the Rigol is mapping 200 bits of vertical ADC resolution to 400 pixels of vertical screen resolution). Perfectly correct curves may or may not be precisely what you see on the display - although with a small number of sample points, the difference between linear and sin(x)/x interpolation is pretty noticeable.

Here are two images from a LeCroy Waverunner LT 224; the first one showing sin(x)/x using 10 samples per div. Can you see what looks like short line segments at the tops and bottoms of some of the sine waves?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44621)


This image shows both linear and sin(x)/x interpolation using 5 sample points per div as in my Rigol example (although with longer cycles).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44623)


Quote
If I then chop off the pointy bit, I get something very similar to your capture (effectively adding just one more sample per peak.)
Well sure, adding sample points in convenient locations can definitely help linear interpolation look more like sin(x)/x.  ;)  But in any case, to me, the difference between your linear interpolation and the 'bad' curve is still noticeable - one looks like straight vectors and the other looks like less-than-perfect curve fitting.

Quote
But either way, sorry to ask and I won't take any more of this long thread with what's way off topic.
It wasn't any problem to ask, and I don't think it's off topic since it's about the Rigol's interpolation (and I brought it up in the first place). I was just surprised at the question - and I thought I answered good-naturedly with a bit of ribbing -  while trying to point out that, IMO, it would have been clear if linear interpolation had been used on that waveform with 5 points per div. - even though, as I mentioned in my later post, I understood your point and conceded that it would have been more clear if I had used a lower frequency sine wave in the example.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 17, 2013, 06:39:08 pm
 :scared: Got my trail options back 2156 minutes, with new update installed.  :scared:

The procedure is still the same.

So you keep your trail options when upgrading, you dont lose it after the first Self-cal.
but you wil lose it on the second  self-cal and every self-cal after

( Note; some users reports other experiences about the first self-cal, maybe it is unit and configration depended. )

Small difference is that if the options are expired, you dont get this
message anymore at startup. When expired you cant find that anymore somewhere.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 17, 2013, 06:46:11 pm
The procedure is still the same.

Good to know. Thanks for testing and sharing your findings  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 18, 2013, 05:17:44 am
Hello
my DS2072 saved screens on the flash as .trc files. Searching all inet I have no idea how to work with it.
Does anybody know what it is? Example in attachment.
Thanks in advance,
Vladimir
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 08:48:22 am
Hello
my DS2072 saved screens on the flash as .trc files. Searching all inet I have no idea how to work with it.
Does anybody know what it is? Example in attachment.
Thanks in advance,
Vladimir

From DS2000 User Manual:

"1. Traces
Save the waveform data in external memory in “*.trc” format. The data of all the channels turned on can be saved in the same file. At recall, the data will be displayed on the screen directly."

TRC is just an image of the waveforms on the screen - kind of like an image file (e.g. BMP) but one that can be loaded back onto the display of the DSO.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 08:54:03 am
On arrival users want to do a self-cal, but the next time you do a self call is much much later,
then your options are long ago expired..., so it is a real solution..., good thinking from Rigol.

1) This is not a solution - it's a bug that hasn't been fixed. Self-calibration should not affect trial minutes not matter how many you do.

2) As mentioned before, I installed a brand new trial license key - did one self calibration - and the trial minutes were erased. So this does not work in every situation.

3) Until more is known about the parameters, self-calibration is still not something I would recommend new users do - unless they have a spare trial license key or until their trial minutes are gone.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 18, 2013, 09:48:03 am
On arrival users want to do a self-cal, but the next time you do a self call is much much later,
then your options are long ago expired..., so it is a real solution..., good thinking from Rigol.

1) This is not a solution - it's a bug that hasn't been fixed. Self-calibration should not affect trial minutes not matter how many you do.

2) As mentioned before, I installed a brand new trial license key - did one self calibration - and the trial minutes were erased. So this does not work in every situation.

3) Until more is known about the parameters, self-calibration is still not something I would recommend new users do - unless they have a spare trial license key or until their trial minutes are gone.

A bug is when you made a mistake in your software. But i am not sure it is a mistake.

From your point of view from the software site, yes it looks like a mistake.

But what if it part of there proces. They designed it this way to come to a factory proces,
so they could simply design a cheap working proces.  It is a way of thinking, we probally dont understand.

Also they did not tell anything about it in the release note, which is very strange.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 09:55:21 am
A bug is when you made a mistake in your software. But i am not sure it is a mistake.

Since I doubt any company wants it's customers complaining and demanding help (i.e. requiring new trial keys) I'm convinced it's a bug.

Quote
Also they did not tell anything about it in the release note, which is very strange.

Another reason to believe that any change you've noticed is just the by-product of other work they did on the firmware, and the original self-cal bug still remains.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 09:56:10 am
Same post as at "New Rigol DS2000-S series with built-in dual-channel 25-MHz AWG (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds2000-s-series-with-built-in-dual-channel-25-mhz-awg/msg219070/#msg219070)". I'm double-posting this because I thought it might be interesting to people following either thread.

Using SCPI commands, I was able to play around with the features of the DS2000-S waveform generator 'inside' of the new firmware on the DS2000: setting the frequencies, voltage levels, phase, etc. of the two source channels. I also located (but haven't tested yet) the command to download waveforms to the AWG.

Of course, without any external outputs on my model (and not having it open), it was impossible to know if anything other than variable settings inside memory were being affected (probably not of course). I haven't been able to make the DSO show anything (including the new menus or screen icons associated with the AWG - as shown in the image), so I'm wondering if those things are tied to having the model number with the "-S" in non-volatile memory (just like the bandwidth, 2ns timebase, and 100MHz filter seem to be tied to the model number inside the DS2XXX).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44833)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 18, 2013, 10:41:44 am

AWG functions...very nice

Why is it all in chinees..,

Maybe we have to solder in two BNC plugs on the back side.., have to look on Daves
teardown, to see if there is already something on the circuitboard..to connect to
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 11:04:33 am
Why is it all in chinees..,
Image is from Chinese document - Rigol always releases new products first in China (more 'beta' testing ;D ) before Western markets.

Quote
Maybe we have to solder in two BNC plugs on the back side.., have to look on Daves
teardown, to see if there is already something on the circuitboard..to connect to
I was looking over Dave's photos last night; I couldn't see any obvious DDS circuitry, but there is certainly space for a daughterboard. One bad thing though - the new DS2000-S series has a button on the front panel that isn't on the normal DS2000 series.

From one of Dave's hi-res photos:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44853)


New front panel button:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44851)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 18, 2013, 11:32:55 am
I was looking over Dave's photos last night; I couldn't see any obvious DDS circuitry, but there is certainly space for a daughterboard.

My bet is it's a new board, with direct mount BNCs like the existing one.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 18, 2013, 12:58:12 pm

DS 2000 -S,

In the service menu, key test, there are two keys i can find on the front,
one is called  LA and the other is indeed Source

In the firmware all the commands are there for the AWG.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 01:20:53 pm
In the service menu, key test, there are two keys i can find on the front,
one is called  LA and the other is indeed Source
Interesting. It shows the button as being here on the front panel:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44879)


Quote
In the firmware all the commands are there for the AWG.
I mentioned in a previous post that I think all commands necessary for an LA are also already in the firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 10:28:48 pm
I was looking through Dave's photos again from his DS2000 teardown, and I noticed in his shot of the inside of the front panel that the place where the 'Source' and 'LA' buttons will eventually go is already knocked out - only the stuck-on plastic template with the legend is covering the holes. In fact, if you rub your thumb or finger on the front panel in either of those two places, you can feel the holes behind the template.  :D

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44907)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on April 18, 2013, 11:04:29 pm
Put Logic Analyzer features roughly the equivalent of the external units we have been discussing (with triggering, protocols, etc.)  in the $300-$400 range into the 2072 and you get a very popular configuration.  Just saying.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: grego on April 18, 2013, 11:29:14 pm
Put Logic Analyzer features roughly the equivalent of the external units we have been discussing (with triggering, protocols, etc.)  in the $300-$400 range into the 2072 and you get a very popular configuration.  Just saying.

My guess is they will keep their decodes separate as they do already and just add the LA function as an option for ~$400-$500 USD for an 8 channel.  That would keep them in the same range with Agilent and Instek.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 19, 2013, 10:02:35 pm
Why is there only one conductive rubber dot at the Clear and Auto button? It's not good!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 20, 2013, 12:21:30 am
Oh, that's crazy. http://youtu.be/BWZXGzAVkD8?t=32m19s (http://youtu.be/BWZXGzAVkD8?t=32m19s) But unfortunately there is no photo of Agilent's keyboard.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on April 20, 2013, 10:48:10 am
Why is there only one conductive rubber dot at the Clear and Auto button? It's not good!

Not really.

The Run/Stop and Single button use a led indicator which has to be spaced in the center for even illumination, therefore two carbon-pads are placed alongside the led.  The Clear and Auto button are not illuminated and could utilize a single carbon-pad, and they are probably less frequently used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 20, 2013, 11:09:29 am
Not only are there holes in the front panel for the two buttons, the keypad PCB is already laid out for the two additional (illuminated) buttons:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=45117)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 20, 2013, 11:39:27 am
So we need to get two extra buttons somewhere!   :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 20, 2013, 11:43:24 am
So we need to get two extra buttons somewhere!   :)

With the new firmware, this has gotten me curious as to whether shorting the 'Source' button position will pop-out the AWG side menu... perhaps it's time to finally open my DSO.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 20, 2013, 12:10:18 pm
And the Metal case is Ready for BNC outputs,
But does Not look like an Add-on board  :(
[
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bonanz on April 20, 2013, 12:11:57 pm
So we need to get two extra buttons somewhere!   :)

With the new firmware, this has gotten me curious as to whether shorting the 'Source' button position will pop-out the AWG side menu... perhaps it's time to finally open my DSO.  ;D

do it  >:D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 20, 2013, 12:18:10 pm
And the Metal case is Ready for BNC outputs,
But does Not look like an Add-on board  :(

Now must be discovered where to connect the cables! :) :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 20, 2013, 02:02:42 pm
Not only are there holes in the front panel for the two buttons, the keypad PCB is already laid out for the two additional (illuminated) buttons:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=45117)
I like the metal encoder spindles.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jason on April 22, 2013, 02:34:29 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44853)

I'm intrigued by those SPI pins.  Has anyone tried using them?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 22, 2013, 07:10:54 am
Strange thing. When my scope arrived I of course made self-calibration and lost all trials. But yesterday I switched it on and suddenly saw all trial with the time left about 1200min. It was no any actions from my side. Then I update the device to 01.00.00.00.03 and all tials were kept.
 
BTW. Does anybody succeed with Rigol support. I sent numerous mails to support@rigol.com and from the feedback form from Customer Center. It seems they are in permanent meditation or dead.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 01:38:46 pm
Are you able to obtain waveform data that is 2GS/sec ? Everything Ive tried results in a file containing 1GS/Sec data. Ive set horizontal to max, memory depth to 56Mpoints, 14, 1.4, aliasing on and off - scope says 2GS/Sec on the display but always outputs 1GS/sec to the wavefile. Acquire mode is normal. 

To check the scope. It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec. I generated a 10 - 950 Mhz sine wave sweep at -20dBm and it displayed it on the FFT. Its a bit iffy above 200 Mhz. 

What I did, Capture an antenna with broadcast FM present at 2GS/sec, loaded that into baudline and checked the position of the stations. None of the saved files were recorded at 2GS/sec, all were 1GS/sec.

My model is the DS2072. Firmware 0.0.1 according to the LXi welcome page.
Buggy firmware ?

-Mike.



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 22, 2013, 01:57:18 pm
Are you able to obtain waveform data that is 2GS/sec ? Everything Ive tried results in a file containing 1GS/Sec data. Ive set horizontal to max, memory depth to 56Mpoints, 14, 1.4, aliasing on and off - scope says 2GS/Sec on the display but always outputs 1GS/sec to the wavefile. Acquire mode is normal.

To check the scope. It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec. I generated a 10 - 950 Mhz sine wave sweep at -20dBm and it displayed it on the FFT. Its a bit iffy above 200 Mhz.

To check the sampling rate, all you have to do is STOP acquiring when it displays '2GSs/s', then change the timebase to the smallest possible (e.g. 5ns), switch 'Display' -> 'Vectors' to 'Dots', then count the actual sample points. 2GSa/s means a 500ps acquire time for the ADC, so at 5ns/div, you should see 10 dots per div. If you don't, then I would imagine you have a technical problem.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 22, 2013, 02:00:01 pm
Well, at Agilent DSOX2002A you cannot set dots. Rigol is better at this.  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 22, 2013, 02:29:07 pm
BTW. Does anybody succeed with Rigol support. I sent numerous mails to support@rigol.com and from the feedback form from Customer Center. It seems they are in permanent meditation or dead.

From what I've read, people have had varying levels of success. In some areas, it seems Rigol is quick and responsive to their customers - in other areas, not so much. I've had success communicating to Rigol through my dealer - which is sometimes the better path to take than directly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 03:17:09 pm
Are you able to obtain waveform data that is 2GS/sec ? Everything Ive tried results in a file containing 1GS/Sec data. Ive set horizontal to max, memory depth to 56Mpoints, 14, 1.4, aliasing on and off - scope says 2GS/Sec on the display but always outputs 1GS/sec to the wavefile. Acquire mode is normal.

To check the scope. It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec. I generated a 10 - 950 Mhz sine wave sweep at -20dBm and it displayed it on the FFT. Its a bit iffy above 200 Mhz.

To check the sampling rate, all you have to do is STOP acquiring when it displays '2GSs/s', then change the timebase to the smallest possible (e.g. 5ns), switch 'Display' -> 'Vectors' to 'Dots', then count the actual sample points. 2GSa/s means a 500ps acquire time for the ADC, so at 5ns/div, you should see 10 dots per div. If you don't, then I would imagine you have a technical problem.

The scope is sampling at 2GS/Sec single channel dual its 1GS/Sec. At 2GS/sec 10 dots are show after single run at 5ns. It will easily display e.g a 400 Mhz sine wave. The problem is the scope doesn't save that 2GS/sec capture to the wfm file. Theres decimation going on and it saves 1 Gs/Sec data. (Which is still a 500Mhz spectral chunk)

Theres two possibilities, 1. the scope does decimate and saves 1GS/sec waves, or 2. the tool Im using to view the waveform is parsing the binary data incorrectly. I noticed the wfm file for the DS2072 isnt the same as the DS1052E. It contains preamble. Either case Ill check with the baudline author.


-Mike.


 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 22, 2013, 03:27:57 pm
Theres two possibilities, 1. the scope does decimate and saves 1GS/sec waves, or 2. the tool Im using to view the waveform is parsing the binary data incorrectly. I noticed the wfm file for the DS2072 isnt the same as the DS1052E. It contains preamble. Either case Ill check with the baudline author.
I'm guessing it's almost certainly #2 - there wouldn't be any logical reason for #1 (except a bug). And yes, the WFM format has been drastically changed - and there is no published documentation about it - typical Rigol/Chinese behavior which pisses me off. And they appear to have changed it even some more in the latest firmware version (01.00.00.03)!

We are currently working on documenting the format - so that conversion routines can be written.

BTW, if you want to know what version of firmware you're running, you need to use a specific sequence of buttons. Read the instructions at the bottom of this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 22, 2013, 03:33:51 pm
BTW. Does anybody succeed with Rigol support. I sent numerous mails to support@rigol.com and from the feedback form from Customer Center. It seems they are in permanent meditation or dead.

From what I've read, people have had varying levels of success. In some areas, it seems Rigol is quick and responsive to their customers - in other areas, not so much. I've had success communicating to Rigol through my dealer - which is sometimes the better path to take than directly.
Thanks for answer, marmad.
Yes it is. I got all the help from Anna Lewandowska from Testwall. But it seems not to be a good way to disturb her any time I need assistance. She already spent a lot of  time and efforts to deliver the device from Ireland to Moscow. DHL service is absolutely inadequate in my country.

So, if I am a registered customer, why I could not get the support from the only place where I registered?
BTW. They suggest me to visit their Munich office :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 22, 2013, 03:45:12 pm
So, if I am a registered customer, why I could not get the support from the only place where I registered?
BTW. They suggest me to visit their Munich office :)

Well, that's one reason the Rigol (and Hantek and Owon and Siglent) threads are so numerous (and often large) in this forum - because we (the owners/users of the equipment) are offering support to each other to make up for a deficiency from the manufacturers. If the Chinese companies provided better documentation and software for their devices - as well as a speedy, reasonable level of after-sales support, many of us would probably spend a lot less time here  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 22, 2013, 04:02:45 pm

Well, that's one reason the Rigol (and Hantek and Owon and Siglent) threads are so numerous (and often large) in this forum - because we (the owners/users of the equipment) are offering support to each other to make up for a deficiency from the manufacturers. If the Chinese companies provided better documentation and software for their devices - as well as a speedy, reasonable level of after-sales support, many of us would probably spend a lot less time here  :)
I do agree, Mark. But if so, why not to make a separate topic for FW updates to put there FW files. Because now everybody here need each time to ask his dealer for help.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 04:23:04 pm
Theres two possibilities, 1. the scope does decimate and saves 1GS/sec waves, or 2. the tool Im using to view the waveform is parsing the binary data incorrectly. I noticed the wfm file for the DS2072 isnt the same as the DS1052E. It contains preamble. Either case Ill check with the baudline author.
I'm guessing it's almost certainly #2 - there wouldn't be any logical reason for #1 (except a bug). And yes, the WFM format has been drastically changed - and there is no published documentation about it - typical Rigol/Chinese behavior which pisses me off. And they appear to have changed it even some more in the latest firmware version (01.00.00.03)!

We are currently working on documenting the format - so that conversion routines can be written.

BTW, if you want to know what version of firmware you're running, you need to use a specific sequence of buttons. Read the instructions at the bottom of this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).

Hi,
   I have 00.00.01.00.05 Software, Hardware is 1.0.1.0.0, rest I guess isnt important? - The proceedure you give for obtaining the information is part of the calibration routines - I ended up in channel gain menu  |O

/not related to the wfm parsing,
The 01.00.05 firmware locksup with RAW reads even in stop mode, currently Im resorting to reading the display data and processing that. Not ideal - Thats already on the forum and theres a test app, not good for me since I dont use windows at all, I used rigolterm and the scope crashed with manual / basic command  entry.

The dealer sent me the latest firmware 00.01.00.00.03 together with the DS2000 programming guide dated July 2012. Fine for usb control (if raw worked, need to double check the commands while in the same room as the scope.)

Im also aware the firmware update proceedure is a little more involved, will check that.

Somewhat related:-

http://www.urlme.net/blog/?p=2031 (http://www.urlme.net/blog/?p=2031)

The dual channel example is from a TEK TDS1012B scope.

-Anyhow the .wfm file format is rather odd, baudline is able to parse unsigned bytes easily - it will display the spectrum showing e.g radio channels in the right places but only for sample rates set to 1GS/Sec, the file was captured at 2GS/sec, if I load that setting the sample rate accordingly they are in the wrong "spot" suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

I will make a file with e.g 100 MHz marker (via sig gen) & capture it to investigate the file further.

Regarding other comments: We gain in hardware what we loose in documentation...

Batronix have been fast and friendly but ultimately must also resort to emailing Rigol...




Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tequipment on April 22, 2013, 04:53:16 pm
The 2072 is less because its the entry price.  Its made to grab attention.  The insides should be the same.
Evan Cirelli

TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: olsenn on April 22, 2013, 05:29:54 pm
Quote
Are you saying the DS2072 is same hardware as DS2200 and only needs sofware to get 200MHz bandwidth 

Since the DS1052E/DS1102E fiasco started on this site, Rigol has spent some time beefing up their security when it comes to unlocking features of their hardware. True, stopping the clock in their DS2000/DS4000 and possibly some other embedded devices of theirs can prevent some trial options from expiring, but the codes for unlocking said features are encrypted quite strongly and I don't imagine buying a DS2072 hoping a hack will eventually appear is a very safe decision. Always make sure the decice you are buying, AS YOU ARE BUYING IT, is capable of doing what you need. If additional features become available over time, then that is a perk.

Coal is made of the same stuff as diamond; try explaining that to your wife on her birthday!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tequipment on April 22, 2013, 05:30:19 pm
Im not 100% sure, I'll find out BUT this is very common in most scope lines.

So most of the time yes this is true BUT they dont give out software to upgrade them.

here is an example of a power supply with many features unlocked with a key:
http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDP832.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDP832.html)


Thanks
Evan
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 08:11:22 pm
The insides should be the same.
Evan Cirelli,, sales team, VP and co-founder of  TEquipment.NET

  Hi Evan ,
  Are you saying the DS2072 is same hardware as DS2200 and only needs software to get 200MHz bandwidth?  ??? ;D

Software probably helps, heres some measurements I made with my "stock" DS2072:
Generator Marconi 2022E - I checked it over the span via (a real) spectrum analyzer, signal dropped max  -1.5dB at 400Mhz. then climbed back to -1dB vs the reference -40dBm.
 
Heres a plot of the DS2072, captured via usbtmc piped into baudline, Hz = Mhz in this case. Waveform averaging is enabled vertical at 2mV/div. 2GS/Sec sampling.

Reference is -40 dBm (which corresponds to -32dB in the graph since thats full scale digital)

The 3dB'ish point is 70Mhz - then I carried on to 800 Mhz.
800 Mhz is -33 dB down.
400 -15dB
200 about -8dB
100 -5dB
50 -0.35 dB
10 is the refefence at -32 dB which corresponds to the Generators -40 dB signal (hence add 8dB the level to get dbm)

All total nonsense.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 08:55:23 pm
Heres a plot of the DS2072, captured via usbtmc piped into baudline, Hz = Mhz in this case. Waveform averaging is enabled vertical at 2mV/div. 2GS/Sec sampling.


All total nonsense.

 @MikeR
What was your time base set at? (100ns/div?)
Probably :)
Was the frequency generator sweeping?
No manual stepping at 10Mhz
Does Baudline use multiple display waveforms or just just one?
It supports multiple inputs and channels. From STDIN, the channel data needs to be interleaved
chan1,chan2, etc

The Averaging by the Ds2072 during a sweep must have an affect.
It will, the longer dwell per step increases the snr due to the averaging, the steps here were
roughly timed to be similar - but not perfect hence my last comment.

The time base setting will affect the number of Samples and thus your data used by baudline
I now realize this thanks to your help.
-Cheers,


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Ghydda on April 22, 2013, 09:04:54 pm
Got mine today. I am a happy camper :)


My stats out of the box:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0
FPGA version:
   SPU 03.01.02
   WPU 00.06.00
   CCU 12.29.00
   MCU 00.05

According to the documentation the unit was calibrated on February 19th 2013.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 23, 2013, 09:40:23 pm
-Anyhow the .wfm file format is rather odd, baudline is able to parse unsigned bytes easily - it will display the spectrum showing e.g radio channels in the right places but only for sample rates set to 1GS/Sec, the file was captured at 2GS/sec, if I load that setting the sample rate accordingly they are in the wrong "spot" suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

Why would this be your conclusion? That equipment programmed to write it's own invented file format isn't doing it correctly? But that the third party software IS reading the file correctly?

As I mentioned already, the format described in wfm_view and other online sources for the DS1000 series is not valid anymore. The locations in the header of pertinent information (sample rate, sample size, etc) - and the manner in which the DSO stores sample data has been altered quite substantially. It's likely that with 2GSa/s the Rigol is storing the data in a different fashion than with 1GSa/s - since the 2GSa/s setting was not available in the DS1000 series. No one has published specs on the new format yet - or written any readers. My Rigol doesn't have any problems writing - and then later reading - a 2GSa/s WFM file - so clearly the fault is in the software. So, instead of claiming, as you did first, that the Rigol wasn't sampling at 2GSa/s - or secondly, that the Rigol isn't writing the 2GSa/s to the file (both of which are easy to prove otherwise) - you should be studying the new format and discovering the changes so that you can get Baudline to work correctly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 23, 2013, 10:35:05 pm
-Anyhow the .wfm file format is rather odd, baudline is able to parse unsigned bytes easily - it will display the spectrum showing e.g radio channels in the right places but only for sample rates set to 1GS/Sec, the file was captured at 2GS/sec, if I load that setting the sample rate accordingly they are in the wrong "spot" suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

Why would this be your conclusion? That equipment programmed to write it's own invented file format isn't doing it correctly? But that the third party software IS reading the file correctly?

As I mentioned already, the format described in wfm_view and other online sources for the DS1000 series is not valid anymore. The locations in the header of pertinent information (sample rate, sample size, etc) - and the manner in which the DSO stores sample data has been altered quite substantially. It's likely that with 2GSa/s the Rigol is storing the data in a different fashion than with 1GSa/s - since the 2GSa/s setting was not available in the DS1000 series. No one has published specs on the new format yet - or written any readers. My Rigol doesn't have any problems writing - and then later reading - a 2GSa/s WFM file - so clearly the fault is in the software. So, instead of claiming, as you did first, that the Rigol wasn't sampling at 2GSa/s - or secondly, that the Rigol isn't writing the 2GSa/s to the file (both of which are easy to prove otherwise) - you should be studying the new format and discovering the changes so that you can get Baudline to work correctly.

It not my conclusion since its still being investigated. I haven't "claimed" anything here just stated my ongoing observations. Which stands currently that the 2GS/s wfm file when loaded into baudline only seems to be at 1GS/Sec, why is still to be determined and I am working with the baudline author to add support for the file format having supplied many example waveforms.

Update:
That observation is for the .wfm file *only*

- The CSV output mode does contain the full 2GS/Sec when configured to capture at that speed.
as shown in the attachments.

Same 50 Mhz signal.

Loading the .wfm with a samplerate (in baudline) set to 1GS/sec results in the 50Mhz signal being
at 50 Mhz, which triggered my original question.

-M
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 23, 2013, 11:21:43 pm
I haven't "claimed" anything here just stated my ongoing observations.

You wrote:
Quote
It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec.
and
Quote
...suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

Both of those 'observation' were implying that the Rigol was doing something wrong - when it was ridiculously easy to prove that it was doing those things correctly with simple experiments - and thus Baudline was at fault .

Quote
Which stands currently that the 2GS/s wfm file when loaded into baudline only seems to be at 1GS/Sec

Yes, because Baudline is obviously reading the file incorrectly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 25, 2013, 06:43:00 pm
I haven't "claimed" anything here just stated my ongoing observations.

You wrote:
Quote
It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec.
and
Quote
...suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

Both of those 'observation' were implying that the Rigol was doing something wrong - when it was ridiculously easy to prove that it was doing those things correctly with simple experiments - and thus Baudline was at fault .

Quote
Which stands currently that the 2GS/s wfm file when loaded into baudline only seems to be at 1GS/Sec

Yes, because Baudline is obviously reading the file incorrectly.

Well not really, my understanding was incorrect. Baudline was reading the file correctly it was just in the wrong order / format. Now this has been solved and its showing a full 1 Ghz of spectrum from the 56M captured wfm.

Same is probably true for the 1400 :wav:data? points thats currently capturing at 30FPS or over 68K samples /sec over LAN so extending the same decoding to that code should be trivial.

-M



 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 25, 2013, 07:18:00 pm
Well not really, my understanding was incorrect. Baudline was reading the file correctly it was just in the wrong order / format.

So you think Rigol was writing their own invented file format the wrong way?  ;)  I think it would probably be more accurate to say that Baudline was not reading Rigol's new version of it's .WFM format correctly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 25, 2013, 08:01:59 pm
I do agree, Mark. But if so, why not to make a separate topic for FW updates to put there FW files. Because now everybody here need each time to ask his dealer for help.

@Evi: Good idea. I will ask my dealer if he thinks it would be a problem for Rigol if we keep copies of the already-released FW versions available here. BTW, I sent you a PM about FW, too.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 26, 2013, 05:51:16 pm
I've been doing stress testing on the two-channel memory sample reading bug of the Rigol (#13 in this list (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)) in order to try to quantify things better, so that Rigol will fix it in the next release.

My results so far are as follows:

AUTO (single) / 14kB / 140kB / 1.4MB / 14MB / 56MB / AUTO (dual) = Reading is SUCCESSFUL (either BYTE or ASCII mode): 
7kB* / 70kB* / 700kB / 7MB / 28MB = Reading FAILS [*sometimes] (whether BYTE or ASCII mode): 

If anybody else is interested in testing their Rigol, I've written a new piece of software (Rigol_Sample_Memory_Read.zip) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=45857) (also attached below) to automate the testing of all sample depths.

To use it, you don't need to do any setup or have any input signals to the DSO; it's irrelevant - the software will turn on and off the appropriate channels, set the memory depth, and try to read.

To run every memory depth, just select "ALL" for single and/or dual channel modes, and click "RUN".
NOTE: it takes time to read 7MB, 14MB, 28MB, and 56MB memory depths (the software inserts a 350ms pause after every packet from the DSO - and a 750ms pause between switching memory depths) - so use 'Break' if you want to exit ('Clr Text' to empty the message output box).
If the total received bytes don't match the acquire memory depth setting, the software will display the result in RED (FAIL).

For testing ASCII transfers, you have to use a different technique. Since the number of ASCII bytes is unknown for a given memory depth, select only ONE memory size to test, set 'Repeats' to 3 or 4, then 'RUN'.
If each repeated test gives exactly the same number of ASCII bytes returned, the result is SUCCESSFUL. If the tests return different numbers, the result is a FAIL.

You can also use the 'Repeats' setting to run multiple tests on one memory depth. For example, if I run the 7kB memory read test 10x, it seems to fail ~50% of the time.

Please report back findings here for compilation and delivery to Rigol.

The image shows the results of a test run on all possible acquire depths; 4 settings failed (70kB / 700kB / 7MB / 28MB):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=45860)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on April 26, 2013, 09:02:41 pm
Does anyone know why these DS2072 scopes are completely unavailable from any US sellers?  It seems they have been out for more than a year, and although I can find dozens and dozens of shops selling the DS1052, I can't find a single one who has any DS2072's.

Is there a problem with them?  Is it being discontinued or replaced?  Can't figure how they could be as scarce as hens teeth after more than a year on the market.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on April 26, 2013, 09:23:55 pm
Does anyone know why these DS2072 scopes are completely unavailable from any US sellers?  It seems they have been out for more than a year, and although I can find dozens and dozens of shops selling the DS1052, I can't find a single one who has any DS2072's.
I got mine from Tequipment with no difficulty in January and I believe many others have ordered and received since then. Where are you trying to order from, and have you contacted them and asked why it's unavailable?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 26, 2013, 09:24:08 pm
Does anyone know why these DS2072 scopes are completely unavailable from any US sellers?  It seems they have been out for more than a year, and although I can find dozens and dozens of shops selling the DS1052, I can't find a single one who has any DS2072's.

Is there a problem with them?  Is it being discontinued or replaced?  Can't figure how they could be as scarce as hens teeth after more than a year on the market.

Many of the owners here bought it from Tequipment or other places in the US until very recently. So I would imagine there's just a backlog of orders at the moment.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on April 26, 2013, 09:35:12 pm
Many of the owners here bought it from Tequipment or other places in the US until very recently. So I would imagine there's just a backlog at the moment.

Tequipement had a 6 week wait but not any more. and often w/discount.
PM Tequipment on EEVBLOG, he is VP.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/msg212809/#msg212809 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/msg212809/#msg212809)

I just got off the phone with TEquipment and they have none and have a waiting list of people - their website says 4-6 weeks, as does Rigol's website.

There are also none for sale on any US site, or even on eBay.  There are 2 on eBay, all being shipped from China suppliers, and being sold for 40% above MSRP.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 26, 2013, 09:44:52 pm
I just got off the phone with TEquipment and they have none and have a waiting list of people - their website says 4-6 weeks, as does Rigol's website.

There are also none for sale on any US site, or even on eBay.  There are 2 on eBay, all being shipped from China suppliers, and being sold for 40% above MSRP.
I'm guessing that this backlog of orders probably started suspiciously shortly after Mr. Dave Jones published "EEVblog #451 – Rigol DS1052E vs DS2072 Oscilloscope" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-451-rigol-ds1052e-vs-ds2072-oscilloscope/)  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on April 26, 2013, 10:31:56 pm
I ordered mine from tequipment in early March, and at the time was told the 2072 was on a 2 month back order.  I opted for the 2102 because I could.

Now that we know a SigGen option is in the works, I wonder if production hasn't been paused for awhile waiting for the new boards?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on April 26, 2013, 10:44:04 pm
I ordered mine from tequipment in early March, and at the time was told the 2072 was on a 2 month back order.  I opted for the 2102 because I could.

Now that we know a SigGen option is in the works, I wonder if production hasn't been paused for awhile waiting for the new boards?

Funny, I was this -> <- close to splurging and getting the 2102 because they have it in stock... but it's over a third more and the only difference appears to be 70Mhz vs 100 Mhz.  I'm usually working with stuff under 1Mhz, so the extra money is a lot to spend for instant gratification :)

What is a "sig gen option"?  I haven't heard about that... is there going to be a waveform generator option for a newer revision of these scopes?  :o
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 26, 2013, 10:47:49 pm
What is a "sig gen option"?  I haven't heard about that... is there going to be a waveform generator option for a newer revision of these scopes?  :o
It's not clear if it's going to be an option - or just another set of models (DS2000-S series). There is info in this thread. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds2000-s-series-with-built-in-dual-channel-25-mhz-awg/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 26, 2013, 10:51:57 pm
From Tequipment catalog:

Model
DS2072(70MHz,2-Ch Scope)
DS2072-S(70MHz,2-Ch Scope + 2-Ch 25MHz Waveform generator)
DS2102(100MHz,2-Ch Scope)
DS2102-S(100MHz,2-Ch Scope + 2-Ch 25MHz Waveform generator)
DS2202(200MHz,2-Ch Scope)
DS2202-S(200MHz,2-Ch Scope + 2-Ch 25MHz Waveform generator)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jason on April 26, 2013, 11:05:32 pm
I bought one from rigolna.com a couple weeks ago when I saw they were back in stock; it shipped out the next day.  I suspect "4 to 6 weeks" is their general lead time and it's not really tracking their incoming shipments.

Yeah, I also considered the DS2102 to avoid the wait but the price jump was a bit too much.  The DS2072 was already more than I wanted to spend (this is just for hobby use).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on April 27, 2013, 02:20:04 am
From Tequipment catalog:

Model
DS2072(70MHz,2-Ch Scope)
DS2072-S(70MHz,2-Ch Scope + 2-Ch 25MHz Waveform generator)
DS2102(100MHz,2-Ch Scope)
DS2102-S(100MHz,2-Ch Scope + 2-Ch 25MHz Waveform generator)
DS2202(200MHz,2-Ch Scope)
DS2202-S(200MHz,2-Ch Scope + 2-Ch 25MHz Waveform generator)

Very interesting!  Thanks for the info and link in the previous post.  That actually seals the deal for me.  One of the reasons I didn't want to splurge on the DS2102 was because I had planned to get the Rigol function generator as well... don't really need it, just like it :D  and it would replace my aging fluke and give me a few more features I don't use too much.  But if the -S model will have function generation capability built in, I will stick with my old Owon for the time being.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 27, 2013, 02:18:22 pm
It's not clear if it's going to be an option - or just another set of models (DS2000-S series). There is info in this thread. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds2000-s-series-with-built-in-dual-channel-25-mhz-awg/)
I am afraid that it will not be a option that can be added to an older DS2000 series scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 27, 2013, 02:38:55 pm
It's not clear if it's going to be an option - or just another set of models (DS2000-S series). There is info in this thread. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds2000-s-series-with-built-in-dual-channel-25-mhz-awg/)
I am afraid that it will not be a option that can be added to an older DS2000 series scope.
Nobody knows anything for sure. And there are already plans made by some people to look into a retrofit if it's not something offered by Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 27, 2013, 09:58:41 pm
I worked again on testing the Rigol FW sample-memory reading bug - and I've finally figured out the exact parameters of the bug - which should help Rigol engineers track it down. This bug has persisted through all of the last 3 official firmware versions, so I'm really happy to finally nail it down.  :)

A detailed bug report and a special version of the sample-read software has been sent to Drieg - which will be passed on to Rigol Monday for processing into the next official release. From what I know, the 'measurement bug' first spotted by EV in the latest FW (01.00.00.03) has been fixed - so if they can just get rid of these (plus Teneye's 500uV trigger offset and any lingering Cursor issues) we might be approaching the mythical 'zero bug' territory.

Anyway, for those of you with any interest, the precise specifications are as follows:

When both channels are on, any memory read that requires more than one packet of data will ALWAYS fail. The maximum packet size is around 2MB - so any memory depth >2MB for byte mode or >~200kB for ASCII mode can not be read correctly.


I was mistaken about this - more info here. (http://)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 27, 2013, 10:46:30 pm
Im happily reading 1400,14000,14K, and 14M Points via LAN and USB interfaces with firmware FW (01.00.00.03) not at the same time obviously. - Using Linux USBTMC and via the LAN.

Yes, none of those memory depths are available with both channels turned on - except indirectly via AUTO at certain timebase settings - so they work fine.

Quote
Or does turning on the 2nd channel cause all hell to break loose? which was the point of the bug report...

Yes, both channels turned on invokes the bug listed above.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 27, 2013, 11:34:39 pm
@MikeR:  I think you're being a little optimistic with those transfer speeds you mentioned; the bottleneck isn't really the interface - it's the Rigol.

When you send the command :WAV:BEG - the Rigol starts filling a buffer in the DSO (~2MB large). If you ask for the data before the buffer is filled, you'll get it - and the DSO will continue filling the buffer (if necessary). If you don't empty it before it's filled, the DSO will wait.

But it's possible to time exactly how long it takes the scope to fill the buffer. In the case of 1.4MB, it's ~5.95s (if I remember correctly, it takes ~8.6s to fill it entirely). This is not taking transfer speeds into account - this is purely the time it takes for the DSO to move 1.4MB of sample memory to the output buffer. Rigol have clearly written the firmware so that external events like reading memory won't have any impact on the DSO's real time performance.

In terms of transfer speeds over USB, it takes my computer about 1.275s to move 1.4MB from the Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 28, 2013, 09:45:10 am

Please report back findings here for compilation and delivery to Rigol.

My result
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mrubbert on April 28, 2013, 11:05:20 am
Love this scope.
Glad that i stopped a Owen order and go for this DS2.
http://www.silcon.cz/ (http://www.silcon.cz/) is a Verry good place to buy from.
Quick delivery, good package, comunication ...........
Thanks to Drieg, marmad, eevblog and all others.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 28, 2013, 11:48:36 am
My result
Thanks, Evi!  Are you using USB or LAN connection?

Love this scope.
Glad that i stopped a Owen order and go for this DS2.
http://www.silcon.cz/ (http://www.silcon.cz/) is a Verry good place to buy from.
Welcome to the forum as DS2000 owner. Yes, Drieg is a great person/dealer to do business/communicate with.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 28, 2013, 12:08:42 pm
My result
Thanks, Evi!  Are you using USB or LAN connection?


I used USB
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 28, 2013, 12:49:41 pm
More on memory reads:

The Rigol certainly isn't a speed demon when it comes to large memory-depth reads from the DSO. As mentioned before, they seem to have taken care that transfer routines won't interfere with local operation of the scope (via the front panel). While I understand this philosophy in terms of reading display memory (or sample lengths <= 14k) which you might want to do real-time while the DSO is running, I don't really understand it when you're trying to get large captures out of the scope - which has to be stopped while you're doing it.

For example, to read 56MB out of the DSO takes between ~4.5 - 5.5 minutes via USB (depending how clever you are with timing your requests to the Rigol's buffer being filled - and LAN probably takes longer). Compare that to a 56MB save to USB stick: I just timed it with a stopwatch and it took 5 minutes 23 seconds - so they are more or less equivalent (with external transfer being slightly faster). So we can calculate, roughly, that it takes ~1 minute per 10 megabytes  to save memory either to USB or external device.

So perhaps the bottleneck is not so much of a conscious design decision as it is a limitation imposed by extracting sample data from the pathway that normally runs between acquire memory, display memory, and the LCD.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 28, 2013, 01:27:07 pm
Some sample memory read times in seconds - from the Rigol to the PC using USB (not optimized - and I can't do 7MB or 28MB because of the current two-channel bug). You'll notice <= 14kB is always close to a tenth of a second (although this can be reduced somewhat through optimization). This is slower than reading the display memory - which probably makes sense in terms of internal memory organization:

Reading (AUTO) 70 bytes
Time = 0.0950054

Reading (AUTO) 140 bytes
Time = 0.0890051

Reading 7kB
Time = 0.0950054

Reading 14kB
Time = 0.1010058

Reading 70kB
Time = 0.3350191

Reading 140kB
Time = 0.8340477

Reading 700kB
Time = 2.7551576

Reading 1.4MB
Time = 7.2544149

Reading 14MB
Time = 72.1121246

Reading 56MB
Time = 288.5375034
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 28, 2013, 02:37:45 pm
Measuring the Trigger Output delay of the Rigol. Here it is fed back into channel 2, and it appears the delay is ~220ns:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=46005)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 28, 2013, 02:54:49 pm
Hmm... this Trigger Out delay time used to be something that manufacturers specified in the datasheets (or supplementary literature). But I can see no mention of it in either Rigol's docs - or the literature for the Agilent X-Series or the GW-Instek GDS-2000A materials. Lazy backsliding!  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 28, 2013, 03:32:50 pm
What is the delay from External Trigger in  to Trigger Out?

A little less: ~160ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 28, 2013, 07:40:09 pm
So  External trigger has different processing (more direct route, faster software routine) to display and output (trigger)
Does that say the ASIC takes 60nsec to process?
Is it different at Higher Scan rates; less samples? 
External trigger is most likely an Interrupt into the Main processor.

Would Triggering on Ext. change the update rate?

The digital trigger on CH 1 or 2 has to be derived from the samples from the ADC, so it makes sense that it takes a little longer than the External Trigger In.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=46042)

The delay time does not vary based on memory depth or timebase settings - and the source of the triggering doesn't affect the update rates. But it turns out that you can make the Rigol count it's own wfrm/s fairly accurately by just feeding the Trigger Out into a single channel (the other channel is turned off), turning on the frequency counter for that channel, and then sending a 1MHz square wave to the External Trigger In. The displayed frequencies at each timebase are very close to the numbers I recorded using my Fluke counter. The image shows the 20ns timebase being counted - note the frequency:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=46044)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 28, 2013, 08:48:01 pm
I suppose One could offset the Trigger position to the left of the Screen , and still see the Trigger output step (ie. 14 x 20ns=280 nS)

Yes. And looking at the Trigger Out edge at the smallest timebase setting shows that the delay varies from 159ns to 167ns (exactly 8ns deviation).

 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=46048)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 29, 2013, 01:23:07 pm
Measuring the Trigger Output delay of the Rigol. Here it is fed back into channel 2, and it appears the delay is ~220ns:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=46005)
Is 220ns a good result?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 29, 2013, 02:15:37 pm
Did the traces always have the  250ps  spacing?  some sort of Discrete timing resolution
250ps corresponds to 4 Ghz , is that the CPU clock rate ? (different memory access delays)
Does that spacing change with different trigger input frequencies, I suspect NOT
With DPO intensities do some traces occur more often?

Always exactly 32 traces at, as you mentioned, precisely 250ps spacing (8ns total). It looks like when I vary the persistence every 4th trace (1ns / 1GHz) is less frequent.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 29, 2013, 02:21:47 pm
If you Average 32 captures, you get a single edge with a rise time of 6.6ns.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 29, 2013, 02:26:55 pm
  But I do not think the Stability of the 1 Mhz trigger input signal frequency
  Maybe someone has a stable 10 MHz rubidium source  (@EV) to do this same test :)
I had forgotten, but this 8ns jitter was already mentioned by member pena here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg185313/#msg185313) - so I don't think it's related to the trigger input stability. Also, EV tried already to measure the rise time, and found it was at least 1.05ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 29, 2013, 03:00:26 pm
Since it's clear from EV's old posts (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg185397/#msg185397) that the slew rate is VERY fast on the Trigger Out, perhaps the jitter is due to that.

According to a Rohde & Schwarz document on triggers, "A digital trigger, on the other hand, theoretically contributes no jitter to the signal, thus meaning that all of the observed jitter would be from noise as a result of the signal slew rate."
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 29, 2013, 05:23:44 pm
Jitter mearurement results:

Picture jitter-1: Trig out is connected to CH1 with 50 ohm terminator. Trigger is from CH1 (Trig out signal).

Picture jitter-2: Trig out is connected to CH1 with 50 ohm terminator. Trigger is from EXT trigger which is connected to 10 MHz Rubidium standard.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 29, 2013, 10:00:10 pm
Since it's clear from EV's old posts (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg185397/#msg185397) that the slew rate is VERY fast on the Trigger Out, perhaps the jitter is due to that.

This rise time (1.05 ns) was measured with probe P6205. I have got after that a better probe P6243 and got faster rise time (0.85 ns) for trig out. Look this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/frequency-response-of-your-dso/msg209528/#msg209528).

Edit: Picture attached.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jason on April 30, 2013, 08:54:35 am
Check out what happens when I select dots.

1) Horizontally the dots are spaced 200ps / 5GHz apart.  That's significantly faster than my 1GHz sample rate.  That suggests the ADCs might support timing much finer than the sample rate, which might mean the hardware is capable of equivalent time sampling.

2) There are some very tight vertical groups.

Together these suggest that the trigger-out jitter is grouped to some multiple of the ADCs' clock - probably the FPGA's clock.  Perhaps the trigger-out logic runs on a divided clock.  That's really weird though, since the trigger in seems quite accurate.

Disclaimer: I don't know WTF I'm talking about.  :)

Marmad, might you could give us a screen shot of the trigger pulses on dots mode at 2ns/div?

Edit: Note that this also had 500ms of persistence.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 30, 2013, 12:18:02 pm
1) Horizontally the dots are spaced 200ps / 5GHz apart.  That's significantly faster than my 1GHz sample rate.  That suggests the ADCs might support timing much finer than the sample rate, which might mean the hardware is capable of equivalent time sampling.

I think you miscounted, Jason. You have 20 dots per div, so 5ns / 20 = 250ps (4GHz or double the max. sampling rate) - which is the same frequency as pointed out previously. I'm guessing that this is perhaps the main clock rate before it's divided.

Quote
Marmad, might you could give us a screen shot of the trigger pulses on dots mode at 2ns/div?

I get the same 250ps spacing (8 dots per div at 2ns).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 30, 2013, 03:49:46 pm
IF one was to record 32 frames , would there be a regular pattern or random positioning of the traces within the 8 ns ?  I think a 3-D plot in ZT would be interesting.

Here you go, Len - there is a pattern, but the exact one is difficult to catch since it's happening faster than frame capture rates:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 30, 2013, 05:50:11 pm
Yes , I was thinking about that and think that if One feeds in Only a slow square wave = 1/2 the update rate and in NORMAL trigger.
Does minimum Hold-off have an effect? (the HOLD-Off clock resolution )

Also does this 8ns occur when triggering is from Ch1 or Ch2,   not sure of EV's CH1 display.

If you feed a very slow square wave in, you can watch the pattern more clearly. But the 8ns variation always occurs - doesn't matter about the trigger source, speed, sample size, etc; if you look at the image, it shows the measurement statistics.

The Trigger Out delay falls between ~211 - 219ns (using channel triggering). But the difference (~3.6% of 219ns) is not very relevant because if you want to trigger another device, the initial triggering clock speed can't be more than ~4.5MHz max. (1/220ns)  - and if it was 211ns that would still be only ~4.7MHz. So not much difference.

The main point being that for reliably using the DSO to trigger an external device (such as an LA) using the channel triggers, the frequency of the DUT should be <= 4.43MHz.

Edit: If you're just passing the trigger through (using External Trigger In), you might be able to get to 6MHz (1/167ns).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 30, 2013, 07:37:18 pm
Quote
Who was that on EEVBLOG that has a DS4000? 


Not sure, if he visits Eevblog, but it should be this man called Connor Wolf:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=id9YcpP6My4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id9YcpP6My4#ws)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J1pVlqMIHM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J1pVlqMIHM#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 30, 2013, 08:38:31 pm
Who was that on EEVBLOG that has a DS4000?  (Please forward)
I wonder if this variations on the Trigger output also happens on the DS4000 series?

The Chump seems to have it and maybe AndyC_772.
Look at this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/255/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/255/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on April 30, 2013, 08:44:00 pm
Quote
Who was that on EEVBLOG that has a DS4000? 


Not sure, if he visits Eevblog, but it should be this man called Connor Wolf:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=id9YcpP6My4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id9YcpP6My4#ws)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J1pVlqMIHM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J1pVlqMIHM#ws)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=58374 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=58374)
Jup. And he has quite an interesting youtube channel as well: https://www.youtube.com/user/Fake0Name (https://www.youtube.com/user/Fake0Name)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 30, 2013, 08:50:12 pm
I wonder if firmware would be able to set a fix delay,  say 230ns for CHs and 175ns for EXT-IN. or is it just a race
(nops , in firmware to pad timing)

I don't get your point. If you are triggering an external device, the trigger just has to get there before the data changes. As I mentioned already, the total delay sets a maximum frequency (<4.5MHz, depending on when data changes) which the DUT could be running at. The 8ns jitter is meaningless - unless you are silly enough to try to use a frequency which falls in the jitter zone i.e. between ~4.5 - 4.7MHz).

Also, none of this excludes triggering the DSO after another device - or splitting the triggering signal to go the DSO and another device simultaneously. I really think the jitter is a non-issue - although I would prefer a shorter overall delay time.

Quote
So, in order to build a MSO based on this DS2000, it sure is going to be Problematic for sync-ing.

An MSO would be all internal - it wouldn't use an external trigger out.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jason on May 01, 2013, 05:17:07 am
The trig-out jitter won't matter for a LA.  It needs a trigger for roughly when to capture, but for the actual analysis it'll use the bus clock for the exact timing.

It WOULD matter if I wanted to chain two DSO2000's together to watch four channels.  The slaved scope is going to get 8ns of horizontal smear.  For my use it's a non-issue but people trying to observe very fast edges will care.

A couple more observations playing with mine tonight: the jitter pattern is different between the ext trigger and the inputs; and when triggering on CH1 or CH2 the pattern changes when I adjust the vertical gain.  Crazy.

Marmad: Yes, you're right, I read it wrong.  The jitter has .25ns / 4GHz intervals, not .20ns / 5GHz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 01, 2013, 07:02:34 am
Here are 3 pictures more about this trig out jitter. Trigger mode is auto from CH1. Note the different trigger level on the pictures.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on May 01, 2013, 04:07:12 pm
The Chump seems to have it and maybe AndyC_772.
I have a DS4054 at work, which I could probably have a play with if you like.

My own scope is an Agilent MSO-X3054A, and I couldn't resist comparing it... trigger event to trig out delay is 27.6ns, and the jitter on the trig out pulse is about 200ps peak-to-peak, though the scope isn't really able to measure such small amounts with any degree of accuracy.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 01, 2013, 05:30:43 pm
I have a DS4054 at work, which I could probably have a play with if you like.

My own scope is an Agilent MSO-X3054A, and I couldn't resist comparing it... trigger event to trig out delay is 27.6ns, and the jitter on the trig out pulse is about 200ps peak-to-peak, though the scope isn't really able to measure such small amounts with any degree of accuracy.

Thanks, Andy.

Two quick questions: is the delay you measured from triggering on a channel input or external trigger in?

Also, I've been reading a lot about the X- Series recently - trying to figure out Agilent's specifications for the memory usage (which ain't easy). From what I understand from their specs (assuming you don't have the 2MB Mem upgrade), if you're running all 4-channels simultaneously in Auto/Normal mode - you have 250kB per channel. Is that correct? Or does the halving of memory during Normal mode affect just a channel 'pair' (i.e. 500kB)?

Have you verified actual memory amounts when stopped (since Agilent is obviously fairly cagey in this regard; i.e. no tables anywhere in all of their literature)?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 01, 2013, 05:46:41 pm
Here is trig out jitter when trigged to CH2 100 MHz sine wave. Jitter is about 2 ns. It was about 1.2 ns when trigged to CH1.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 01, 2013, 06:03:31 pm
It was about 1.2 ns when trigged to CH1.

Isn't that when you had it triggering itself?

I see the same 8ns when triggered from Ch2 with 1MHz sine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on May 01, 2013, 07:01:45 pm
Thanks Andy if you could test the DS4000, off company time :)

The Agilent does it faster
Was there any difference in the delay between channel triggered and External triggered,
memory depths?
Auto and Normal triggering?

Using the external trigger input, obviously I can't actually see the trigger event itself, but the mid-point of the rising edge on the trigger output is at t=32.3ns, with basically no visible jitter.

Switching between auto and normal triggering makes no difference, and nor does changing the memory depth. However, if there's no signal present, and so the scope free runs in auto mode, then there is trigger jitter - the trig pulse is anywhere from t=19.9ns to t=40.3ns, with a distribution clustered somewhere near the middle of that range.

Of course, in this case it's not triggering on anything in particular, so synchronisation to an external device isn't really an issue - but maybe it gives a clue as to what's making the decision to start a sweep in auto mode. I could convince myself that the spread is exactly 20ns, meaning the 'auto' deicision is made based on a count of a 50 MHz clock somewhere inside the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on May 01, 2013, 07:22:51 pm
Two quick questions: is the delay you measured from triggering on a channel input or external trigger in?
See above; channel trigger looks to be a fraction faster. (Interestingly, I've just measured it again and it's come out at 30.2ns - maybe I have a little channel-to-channel skew to calibrate out, or I'm just tired at the end of a busy day and my experimental technique isn't at its sharpest. Apologies).

Quote
Also, I've been reading a lot about the X- Series recently - trying to figure out Agilent's specifications for the memory usage (which ain't easy). From what I understand from their specs (assuming you don't have the 2MB Mem upgrade), if you're running all 4-channels simultaneously in Auto/Normal mode - you have 250kB per channel. Is that correct? Or does the halving of memory during Normal mode affect just a channel 'pair' (i.e. 500kB)?

Have you verified actual memory amounts when stopped (since Agilent is obviously fairly cagey in this regard; i.e. no tables anywhere in all of their literature)?

I have the 4M memory upgrade. With just ch1 enabled, I can capture 500us worth of data @ 4Gsa/s before the sample rate starts dropping (2M points), and with ch1 and 3 enabled I can capture the same (ie. total of 4M points split across the two channels).

If I enable 1 & 2 (only), then I get 500us @ 2Gsa/s for a total of 1M points per channel (total 2M points). It can't sample any faster, and the other bank of RAM cannot be used.

So, it looks as though ch1 & 2 share a digitiser which is capable of 4Gsa/s, and they share a common block of 2M points of sample memory. Ch 3 & 4 appear to be separate, and share their own digitiser and RAM.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 01, 2013, 07:31:09 pm
It was about 1.2 ns when trigged to CH1.

Isn't that when you had it triggering itself?

I see the same 8ns when triggered from Ch2 with 1MHz sine.

Yes, it was triggered to itself, but it is also same, if it is auto triggred and the trigger level is outside the trace. I get 8 ns only with external trigger.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 01, 2013, 07:55:40 pm
Yes, it was triggered to itself, but it is also same, if it is auto triggred and the trigger level is outside the trace. I get 8 ns only with external trigger.

I get 8ns in Normal mode with either channel or external trigger - which is the way I generally use the DSO.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 01, 2013, 08:03:59 pm
I have the 4M memory upgrade. With just ch1 enabled, I can capture 500us worth of data @ 4Gsa/s before the sample rate starts dropping (2M points), and with ch1 and 3 enabled I can capture the same (ie. total of 4M points split across the two channels).

Hmm... but this doesn't match with Agilent's documents. If you can access a maximum of 2MB per channel-pair, that means when you are running in Normal mode with a single-channel enabled, according to Agilent, you would have a 1MB record length:

"When running (versus taking a single acquisition), the memory is divided in half. This lets the acquisition system acquire one record while processing the previous acquisition, dramatically improving the number of waveforms per second processed by the oscilloscope."

EDIT:  Ahh, I just remembered our discussion over in the "Waveform Update Rate" thread! Perhaps the 3000 X is using 1MB until the final acquire = swapping 1MB banks for speed until you press STOP, and then fills the entire 2MB.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 01, 2013, 09:46:19 pm
I get 8ns in Normal mode with either channel or external trigger - which is the way I generally use the DSO.

I use usually auto mode and I think these jitter values are almost all trigged with auto mode. I try tomorrow normal mode and check if the results change.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 02, 2013, 06:07:48 am
I tested this jitter with normal sweep. No change when triggered from CH2, jitter is still about 2 ns. When triggered from CH1 (Trig out signal itself), there is no trace with normal sweep. Jitter with auto sweep is about 1.2 ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 02, 2013, 07:28:40 am
  I can  see that If Trigger out is connected to Ch 1, and in Normal trigger there would NOT be a trace, But what if you pressed the "Force" button to get the feedback going??

Pressing the force button when using normal sweep gives one trace but no jitter.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 07, 2013, 06:38:37 pm
Hi All - Rigol are looking at another firmware release in about 2 weeks. This will fix the measurement ,and hopefully other , bugs.

Any news about the fix yet?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 07, 2013, 08:22:51 pm
Any news about the fix yet?

I know they're working on a new version - I did some testing and delivered a bug report (with software for showing transfer bug) to drieg to pass onto Rigol at the end of last month.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on May 09, 2013, 05:26:08 pm
After some experimenting last night I can confirm a few things about the bandwidth limit on these scopes.


This suggests to me that a software upgrade is definitely feasible for Rigol to offer. I'd expect to see one coming.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 09, 2013, 05:37:48 pm
This suggests to me that a software upgrade is definitely feasible for Rigol to offer. I'd expect to see one coming.

Interesting stuff, ve7xen - thanks for that. Your conclusions correspond with the section listing 'Option Type' and 'Option Name' inside the firmware, which has the following:
Option Type    =  BANDWIDTH
Option Name  =  100M Bandwidth
                           200M Bandwidth
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on May 10, 2013, 01:06:59 pm
Did anybody who open the case mark down the type and brand of the cooling fan?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 10, 2013, 05:38:25 pm
Did anybody who open the case mark down the type and brand of the cooling fan?

In Dave's teardown video, you can't see any markings on the side that's exposed - so I'm guessing you might actually have to unscrew it from the inner shielding in order to see the brand name, etc.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 10, 2013, 10:09:35 pm
The fan is quite small.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 10, 2013, 10:31:33 pm
The fan is quite small.

Compared to what??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 10, 2013, 10:57:42 pm
Compared to DSOX2000, Tek DPO2000 or even Rigol DS4000. Well not a big issue.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 10, 2013, 11:11:13 pm
Compared to DSOX2000, Tek DPO2000 or even Rigol DS4000. Well not a big issue.

No, it certainly isn't. Quit being a troll.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on May 11, 2013, 05:29:53 pm
DS2072 and DS2102 are presumably identical except for the 2ns timebase, given the tested -3dB response of the DS2072 and the fact that only the 100MHz PGA filter is engaged for bandwidth limiting
?? I thought, the DS2102 does not have the 2ns timebase - or am I wrong?
Peter
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 11, 2013, 05:36:57 pm
?? I thought, the DS2102 does not have the 2ns timebase - or am I wrong?
Peter

No, you're right. As far as we know, there might be no difference between the DS2072 and DS2102 besides the front panel sticker (and the model number in firmware). I haven't read anything that would indicate otherwise yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on May 12, 2013, 12:20:08 pm
That they are the same , you can also find it back in the bandwidth graph,
here is the graph of my 2072, measured with a signal generator and a measuring head on the entry of the 2072.
The measuring head is  compensating every loss from generator to the entry of the DSO
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 12, 2013, 09:11:47 pm
The graph looks good.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on May 13, 2013, 02:49:24 am
I have a DS2072 and am finding I may have a need to do CAN decoding.  It appears this is not available on the DS2000 Series, but is available on the DS4000 series. 
I'm wondering what the chances are that CAN decoding will become available on the DS2000 series? 

The price is a little scary.  At least it's not as scary as Flexray!

http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-CAN-DS4.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-CAN-DS4.html)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on May 13, 2013, 07:46:07 am
I have a DS2072 and am finding I may have a need to do CAN decoding.  It appears this is not available on the DS2000 Series, but is available on the DS4000 series. 
I'm wondering what the chances are that CAN decoding will become available on the DS2000 series? 

The price is a little scary.  At least it's not as scary as Flexray!

http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-CAN-DS4.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-CAN-DS4.html)
It can be done in software with exported data of course. Maybe Marmad one day includes it in his, maybe somebody else writes some piece of software which analyzes the Rigol export data.

But before you go and pay $500, you better invest in a logic analyzer such as the famous Intronix Logicport. This comes with a CAN analyzer (and RS232, I2C etc.) with no extra costs and costs only $389. It is usually much more convinient than any analyzing stuff which comes with an oscilloscope. I own one and I do not want to miss it.

Peter
Title: Re: Help
Post by: DEHiCKA on May 15, 2013, 06:12:56 pm
Hi guys! Just bought DS2202 (v.00.01.00.02 HW 1.1.0) from my local Russian dealer and lost all the trials right away after selfcal  :--
No help from the dealer though. Can someone help me get last FW for the damn thing? Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on May 15, 2013, 07:02:06 pm
Hi!

PM me your email to send you the last release one. Although Rigol is to fix a couple of minor bugs we spotted here with an upcoming release, it still fixes a list of previous bugs.

Regards
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DEHiCKA on May 15, 2013, 07:31:47 pm
Salas, I've already got it from another fairy :) That was darn quick, thank you guys for the help.
Title: Re: Help
Post by: EV on May 16, 2013, 08:12:01 am
The self-cal bug is mentioned several times in this blog, you can ask your dealer for a replacement code.
or read the blog again. :)

It is also better to read the first page of this thread if you are going to upgrade the firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 16, 2013, 08:36:04 pm
This is a re-post from another thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dso-sampling-rate-at-slow-time-bases/) - because I thought the info might be interesting to DS2000 owners.

In regards to how the Rigol decimates a larger number of samples to a smaller number of pixels (e.g. 14k sample length to 700 pixels = 20 samples per pixel when the time base is >= 500ns) - the two common methods being 1/N or Peak-to-Peak:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=47793)

I did some experimentation using an AWG file of three consecutive short pulses with increasingly higher voltages - with the DSO triggering on the second of the three pulses.

It appears (so far) that the Rigol DS2000 does Peak-to-Peak Decimation from sample to display memory in Normal mode, since if it only displayed every 20th point (using 1/N Decimation), you wouldn't see the amplitude of the third pulse when looking at the display at the 100ms/div setting.

The attached images show 100ms/div and 200us/div displays of Normal mode (@ both 14k and 56Mpts sample lengths) and 100ms/div and 200us/div of Peak Detect mode @ 14kpts.

Peak Detect is a completely different mode of acquisition - I've included it just to show that it can affect the contents of sample memory (as shown at 200us/div) - while Peak-to-Peak Decimation in Normal mode does not.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EvgenyKV on May 17, 2013, 04:18:14 pm
Hi guys! Soon expires the trial period for options of my DS2102. I heard that there is a method to prolong it. Tell please, whether probably it?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on May 18, 2013, 12:22:45 am
Hi,

i also affilitate to the question from EvgenyKV.

In the 500uV/Div-setting my DS2072 has an offset off about 0,3 Div's. Can a self-cal correct this behavior?

It seems that the bandwidth of the DS2072 is greater than 70MHz.

I look the signal of a 48 MHz crystal oscillator on the DS2072 and a Fluke PM3392A (a nice 200MHz scope). The picture of the two scopes are very alike.
Perhaps the bandwidths graph from Wim13 is typical for all DS2072.
But then, what get a DS2102 buyer more for the money?

I like the hires modus. But the 400 pixels are not enough to display all the 12 bits. Is there a vertical zoom? How can one get  full benefit from the hires modus?

Thanks in advance
egonotto



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 18, 2013, 01:20:47 am
Many people talk about the bandwidth of DS2072. It seems that this scope is really cheap for a like 100MHz model... Bang per buck!
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: bonanz on May 18, 2013, 03:19:48 am


Note: If you do this wrong you will lose your trial options - so be patient and take the time to do it right!

Do the upgrade ONLY during bootup - not from the GUI/Menus/OS asking for file/etc. or you will lock up the scope - losing any trial options you have remaining - and requiring you to do the upgrade again anyway using the method listed below:

You do this by using two hands when booting up - one thumb on the 'Power On' switch - one thumb on the 'Help' button. When you press 'Power On', all of the scope LEDs will light for ONE SECOND - during that brief period, you must PRESS AND LET GO of the 'Help' button. It can be a little tricky, but if it works, bootup will stop before the Rigol logo with the 'SINGLE' button lit (if it doesn't, turn off power and try again until you get it). Then insert the USB stick with the file on it. The CH1 LED will flash as the DSO loads the file.

Once updating is finished, several of the LEDs will light up - and all flashing, etc. will stop. That's it! Remove the USB stick and reboot, and check your firmware version using the method listed above.

am I to understand that if you hose up your trial options, flashing firmware with this method will restore them?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on May 18, 2013, 06:32:51 am
Hi Guys,

Thanks Marmad about the decimation displaying method you have explained.

As far as I know the latest firmware is v.01.00.00.03 and it has only a few small issues.
I would expect Rigol quickly issue a 'fix' release.
Do you guys know if it is planned for the near future? Probably already available?

Thanks
Dimitar
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 18, 2013, 02:30:17 pm
I would NOT expect new firmware for quite a while.

This is contrary to what I know: there is already a new firmware version being bug-tested before release.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on May 18, 2013, 02:31:00 pm
am I to understand that if you hose up your trial options, flashing firmware with this method will restore them?

No, flashing FW does not restore erased trial options.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on May 18, 2013, 06:44:11 pm
I like the hires modus. But the 400 pixels are not enough to display all the 12 bits. Is there a vertical zoom? How can one get  full benefit from the hires modus?

Thanks in advance
egonotto

Yes.  If you stop the acquisition then just use the V/div knob to expand the trace the extra resolution of the Hires mode shows up.  Some screen shots I posted near the beginning of this thread shows this.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 18, 2013, 09:25:26 pm
Have you tried feeding back the "Trigger out" fast pulse to test?

Use 50 ohm feedthru terminator with BNC cable!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on May 19, 2013, 12:36:47 am
Hi,


@TP: Thanks for the hint. But you can not go below 500uV. I think here is yet a improvement  in the firmware possible. I will try this with the sample data on PC.

@Teneyes: I have compare the Trigger out with BNC and 50 Ohm termination of the DS2072.
First with the DS2072 . There I got 3ns rise time.
Second with the PM3392A (a 200MHz scope). There I got 2ns rise time.

A 70 MHz scope has from popular opinion 5ns rise time.

So I think the bandwidth of my DS2072 is circa 120 MHz

I will try to compare the bandwidth of the two scopes with a grid dip meter.
 

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 19, 2013, 08:55:42 am
Here are rise times of my DS2202 measured from trig out and risemime tester MK2 signal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 19, 2013, 09:35:58 am
Here are rise times of my DS2202 measured from trig out and risemime tester MK2 signal.

Trig out is connected with 50 cm RG174 cable. So the rise time (1.52 ns) could be faster with a shorter cable. Rise time tester MK2 is connected without any cable to the terminator and it is connected directly to CH1 BNC input. Rise time is 1.32 ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 19, 2013, 11:55:00 am
Here is the rise time (848 ps) of DS2202 trig out signal measured with TDS3032 scope and P6243 Fet probe.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on May 19, 2013, 05:48:01 pm
@TP
I went back and re- read your post on Hi Res and other problems
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg172191/#msg172191 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg172191/#msg172191)

And I wonder if you agree that the DS2072 has more Bandwidth than 70MHz

Inputting a pulse that should have a rise time of 5 ns (according to the specs for the chip I used) gives a rise time of 7.1 ns on the scope.  That means the scope rise time is 5 ns which matches the 70 MHz spec.

Have you tried feeding back the "Trigger out" fast pulse to test?

My BW "measurement" was only a wild guess, as I don't really know the rise time of my homemade pulse generator source (which is only a 74123 driving a 75451 driving 50 ohm).  When I feed Trigger Out into the input I get 3.8 ns rise time (into a 50 ohm 10X terminator via about 31" of RG58U).  Since I don't know the rise time of Trigger Out, I can't calculate the rise time of the scope.  However, worst case is Trigger Out is 0 nsec rise time meaning the scope BW would be 92 MHz minimum.  If Trigger Out rise time is 0.8 ns then the BW of my scope is 95 MHz minimum.

So what exactly is the point of the DS2102?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 19, 2013, 05:56:40 pm
So what exactly is the point of the DS2102?

Do you really need to ask?  ;)  Also, I don't know if anyone has ever tested the real bandwidth of the Agilent DSO-X 2002A - perhaps it's the same as the DSO-X 2012A as well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 19, 2013, 06:05:13 pm
 :( :( Well, I don't have a 0 to 200MHz generator to test the bandwidth of my DSOX2002A... Or is there a more simple way??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on May 19, 2013, 06:11:39 pm
Hi,

@TP: Thanks for the hint. But you can not go below 500uV. I think here is yet a improvement  in the firmware possible. I will try this with the sample data on PC.

Unfortunately when I checked the data saved on a USB stick (CSV format) it was 8 bit quantized even when it had been taken in HiRes mode.  I don't know about data transfered directly to the PC via USB or Ethernet (say using Marmad's program).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 19, 2013, 06:37:27 pm
Unfortunately when I checked the data saved on a USB stick (CSV format) it was 8 bit quantized even when it had been taken in HiRes mode.  I don't know about data transfered directly to the PC via USB or Ethernet (say using Marmad's program).

Unfortunately, I believe the HighRes mode is only used to generate the display from the sample memory - I don't think it's ever actually saved anywhere as 12-bit. Originally, because the SCPI command set has a special command to transfer samples in WORD format, I thought that it would be possible to get the 12-bit data out of the DSO. But I did some testing transferring the sample memory in both Normal and HighRes modes (as BYTE and WORD) - and it was exactly the same.

BTW, I did pass on to Rigol (via Drieg) that it would be nice to use the WORD command in order to get the 12-bit data out of the DSO.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on May 19, 2013, 06:39:51 pm
Hi

I think one has to do the hires in PC. Perhaps one can find a better algorithm as boxcar.
In PC you have more processing power and more time.
Hires is a kind of low-pass filter.  Perhaps I have soon time to introduce me in digital filter.

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 19, 2013, 06:59:01 pm
Ha, ha  ;D  When I just sent my DS2000 a SCPI command to make the DSO enter Logic Analyzer (LA) mode, it responded with the following message:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on May 19, 2013, 07:30:58 pm
Hi

I think one has to do the hires in PC. Perhaps one can find a better algorithm as boxcar.
In PC you have more processing power and more time.
Hires is a kind of low-pass filter.  Perhaps I have soon time to introduce me in digital filter.

Best Regards
egonotto

Sorry, I misunderstood you.  Yes you can post process via a boxcar averaging to get more resolution; I've done it successfully.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on May 20, 2013, 01:08:53 pm
Ha, ha  ;D  When I just sent my DS2000 a SCPI command to make the DSO enter Logic Analyzer (LA) mode, it responded with the following message:


Yes, i have tried also lots of AWG variables, you can write to and read back...
fun, but nothing you can use for something.... :-[
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on May 20, 2013, 01:16:11 pm

Hang ups...

I had so far with the new software two hang ups, when i used the horizontal trigger
knob. To scroll left and right on 5 nSec timebase.

Could not reproduce it yet, turn it off and on again, everything was oke again.

Anyone who has same ...??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: branadic on May 20, 2013, 01:39:14 pm
It's quite a few while ago that I had a test device of the Rigol, so I'm not up to date about the latest firmware. Is there a new firmware by the time available?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 20, 2013, 01:50:06 pm
I had so far with the new software two hang ups, when i used the horizontal trigger
knob. To scroll left and right on 5 nSec timebase.

Could not reproduce it yet, turn it off and on again, everything was oke again.

Anyone who has same ...??

Yes!! I had EXACTLY the same thing - two hangups requiring reboot while using horizontal trigger knob at 5ns timebase - and I also couldn't repeat it. How strange! Also, the second time it hung, the frequency counter was running - and everything froze (all buttons - waveform display) EXCEPT the frequency counter, which continued to function normally.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 22, 2013, 10:47:36 am
Rigol DS2000 micro-bug:  :)

1) If you scroll through Type on the Trigger Menu, you will see that three triggers (Pattern, Delay, Duration) cause the sample frequency to be cut in half (like turning on a second channel). This - by itself - may not be a bug - since those triggers can use a second channel as source (although they don't have to), so perhaps Rigol prepares the sample speed for two-channels. Anyway, select one of these triggers (e.g. in the images, I selected Pattern).

2) Go to Acquire Menu and select MemDepth -> 7kPoints.

3) Go back to Trigger Menu and select Type -> Edge.

4) Go back to Acquire Menu and select MemDepth -> an Easter Egg appears on the menu.

5) Select the Egg.  ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=48473)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 22, 2013, 02:40:07 pm
What's the *.trc??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on May 22, 2013, 02:55:03 pm
I think you need to be a button sniper or something to be able to select the *.trc :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 22, 2013, 06:57:25 pm
I think you need to be a button sniper or something to be able to select the *.trc :)

Really? You couldn't select it? I could, and it played the attached message. I just assumed it had something to do with Rigol or China's manufacturing industry and Western countries, etc.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on May 22, 2013, 07:06:52 pm
Really? You couldn't select it? I could, and it played the attached message. I just assumed it had something to do with China's manufacturing industry and Western countries.
[/quote]

No marmad, I couldn't select it. I did get the *.trc show up however once the curser approached it, it would disappear :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 22, 2013, 08:34:57 pm
 :wtf: :-DD
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on May 22, 2013, 10:59:29 pm
Doesn't work on my DS2072 either (original FW).  It does have an anomaly: where your's shows "*.trc" I get an up arrow, but it changes back into "14MPts" by itself before I can click it.  After trying multiple times, with the scope in multiple states, it doesn't even do that anymore.

I don't understand what you mean by playing the mp3.  I didn't realize it even had a speaker??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 22, 2013, 11:33:20 pm
I don't understand what you mean by playing the mp3.  I didn't realize it even had a speaker??

Play it and you'll understand.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 22, 2013, 11:50:19 pm
It's Imperial March from Star Wars. Star Wars "Imperial March" Vader Theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzntZLHcYy0#)
I don't know what's funny with that.  :-// :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on May 23, 2013, 04:56:51 am
Probably empire strikes back symbolic stuff about future market domination. They also use Chinese warlords figures on online marketing.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on May 23, 2013, 09:20:24 am
Quote
Play it and you'll understand.

What FW are you using marmad?

I'm on v.01.00.00.03 and whilst I can get the *.trc to show up, selecting it is not possible as it just disappears once the cursor approaches it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on May 23, 2013, 10:37:24 am
Yes, *.trc is there but it disappears, if I rotate the multipurpose knob.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 23, 2013, 01:50:26 pm
Well, Korean cars were not good in 1980s. But today things changed. This Hyundai is quite popular in Czech Republic. And they even launched a car factory in Czech Republic. http://www.hyundai-motor.cz/ (http://www.hyundai-motor.cz/)
Rigol might be a top class brand in year 2023 or so.
 :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 23, 2013, 01:53:58 pm
'*.trc' is not an 'Easter Egg'-like symbol.
It's not selectable.
The DSO can't play mp3 files.
Rigol wouldn't use well-known, copyrighted music.

Joke, guys - joke. Sheesh.... although I have to say, I had a good laugh yesterday thinking of some of you frantically trying to select the unselectable.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 23, 2013, 01:55:32 pm
Rigol might be a top class brand in year 2023 or so.

Well, just comparing DS2000 to DSOX2000, Rigol is already a top-brand - since the DS2000 is a much better DSO.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on May 23, 2013, 01:59:54 pm
'*.trc' is not an 'Easter Egg'-like symbol.
It's not selectable.
The DSO can't play mp3 files.
Rigol wouldn't use well-known, copyrighted music.

Joke, guys - joke. Sheesh.... although I have to say, I had a good laugh yesterday thinking of some of you frantically trying to select the unselectable.  ;D

Geez... And to think I trusted you. You little tinker :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 23, 2013, 02:03:58 pm
Rigol is already a top-brand - since the DS2000 is a much better DSO.
Well, OK.  ^-^ If you need a long memory + segmented memory with about 65000 frames or so, you must choose Rigol. And 0,5mV/div might be also useful.
DS2000-S will be definitely better (hardware) than DSOX2000. But when will it appear at www.silcon.cz (http://www.silcon.cz) ??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 23, 2013, 02:09:44 pm
Geez... And to think I trusted you. You little tinker :D

Yes, I didn't realize that other users might just try to replicate the results on their DSO - instead of just playing the file (which was so obviously stupid that I was sure it would be recognized as phony). I felt guilty for awhile... but did imagine withe some amusement the various attempts to select '*.trc'.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on May 23, 2013, 02:12:22 pm
Geez... And to think I trusted you. You little tinker :D

Yes, I didn't realize that other users might just try to replicate the results on their DSO - instead of just playing the file (which was so obviously stupid that I was sure it would be recognized as phony). I felt guilty for awhile... but did imagine withe some amusement the various attempts to select '*.trc'.  :)

hehee ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 23, 2013, 03:06:17 pm
hehee ;)

If Rigol gives me a SCPI command to control the frequency (and length) of the beep, I will make it play that tune when you start RUU! ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on May 23, 2013, 03:11:38 pm
hehee ;)

If Rigol gives me a SCPI command to control the frequency (and length) of the beep, I will make it play that tune when you start RUU! ;)

LOL.. That would be great. I'm fitting a headphone jack in my scope right now in anticipation of a better quality sound :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on May 24, 2013, 07:21:51 am
DS2000-S will be definitely better (hardware) than DSOX2000. But when will it appear at www.silcon.cz (http://www.silcon.cz) ??
October/November this year is my rough guess.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 24, 2013, 02:38:26 pm
Then Agilent guys will have to release a new firmware for DSOX2000 with new functions, for example arbitrary generator or advenced triggers... Who knows?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Arp on May 24, 2013, 03:31:21 pm
Í think the X3000 wave generator has arbitrary. Probably missing on the X2000 for a reason?

Back on topic. I received my DS2072 today. If I have understood it right, I shouldn't calibrate it if I want to keep the "trial options", meaning SPI/I2C decoding and so on?


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 24, 2013, 04:20:01 pm
Back on topic. I received my DS2072 today. If I have understood it right, I shouldn't calibrate it if I want to keep the "trial options", meaning SPI/I2C decoding and so on?

Yes - better to wait. Don't worry - there will be opportunities to calibrate a bit later when 'regenerating' trial options.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on May 24, 2013, 05:53:34 pm
Hello,

is there a danger that one do the regeneration to late?

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 24, 2013, 05:57:35 pm
is there a danger that one do the regeneration to late?

No - you can do it anytime.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on May 24, 2013, 06:07:51 pm
Hello marmad,

thank you.

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 25, 2013, 04:10:00 pm
Having heard back from Rigol (via our good friend Drieg), it appears I was mistaken about the following bug:

When both channels are on, any memory read that requires more than one packet of data will ALWAYS fail. The maximum packet size is around 2MB - so any memory depth >2MB for byte mode or >~200kB for ASCII mode can not be read correctly.

In fact, it works fine. The thing that was confusing my software is that, with a single channel on, the two SCPI commands used to test and then read the buffer (:WAV:STATus? -> WAV:DATA?) both return the same number of bytes to be read from the DSO. But with two channels on, the commands return different numbers, with the WAV:DATA (not STATus) command containing the correct number (i.e. the DSO has filled it's buffer further after the STATus command).

So I've removed this bug from the bug list (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684) - which, BTW, is reportedly down to virtual NIL in the upcoming release.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bonanz on May 26, 2013, 02:30:23 pm
So I just got my DS2072 and teneyes ask me to post up info on my firmware and fpga etc... well here's what it shows...

He also asked when the last cal time was from the self cal menu and that is showing as 2011-01-01 00:00:00...

so what's the consensus on the most stable version for a noob to upgrade from 00.00.01  :-DD

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2q9fmm8.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 26, 2013, 02:43:29 pm
Well, it might happen. I bought my DSOX2002A in April 2013 as a new unit from Farnell. I got a scope manufactured in July 2012.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 26, 2013, 02:54:43 pm
so what's the consensus on the most stable version for a noob to upgrade from 00.00.01
To get your correct FW version, read the bottom portion of this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).

The self-calibration date is meaningless - it's just the earliest date/time stamp the DSO can show (i.e. no self-cal has been run); factory calibration data is not stored in the DSO - it's on a piece of paper that comes with the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bonanz on May 26, 2013, 03:08:30 pm
Thanks Marmad, I just saw there was a trick to show the detailed info... so here's that, i thought for some reason i had super old firmware version that possibly didn't show the detailed stuff.  I'll carefully read over your great info.  thanks for all your hard work, tried out your software really quick and it looks awesome so far.

(http://i43.tinypic.com/303b6g0.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Armageddon on May 26, 2013, 03:38:04 pm
I don't know how Farnell are still in business. Terrible prices, pathetic range, slow website with a useless search function, parametric searching which usually doesn't include the most important parameters... And apparently lots of old stock too.

LOL I'm not the only one that thinks so.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 26, 2013, 03:38:21 pm
Oh, the price was not bad. It was cheaper than my local dealer www.htest.cz (http://www.htest.cz)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Armageddon on May 26, 2013, 03:42:44 pm
Oh, the price was not bad. It was cheaper than my local dealer www.htest.cz (http://www.htest.cz)

See this site (great service) http://www.tme.eu/es/pages/AboutCompany:7.html (http://www.tme.eu/es/pages/AboutCompany:7.html)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 29, 2013, 06:15:15 pm
Since I had already gone so far as to almost create a full table in the other thread, I figured that I might as well finish it - so here it is for future reference:

Maximum number of segments which can be recorded at each sample length on the Rigol DS2000 series:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49220)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 29, 2013, 07:20:33 pm
Following up my obvious need to make tables today:

DSO sample rate for each selectable sample length on the Rigol DS2000 series:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49232)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on May 29, 2013, 08:08:32 pm
Back on topic. I received my DS2072 today. If I have understood it right, I shouldn't calibrate it if I want to keep the "trial options", meaning SPI/I2C decoding and so on?
Yes - better to wait. Don't worry - there will be opportunities to calibrate a bit later when 'regenerating' trial options.  ;)
is there a danger that one do the regeneration to late?
No - you can do it anytime.
This is interesting.  I searched the thread for "regenerate", "regenerating", and "regeneration" and came up empty for what this is referring to.  Maybe someone can post a link?
 
Or maybe, there's "nothing to see here"  ;)

 
Edit: Found out "nothing to see here".
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on May 29, 2013, 08:20:33 pm
...we're not posting about the technique publicly...so far, it seems to have kept Rigol from taking steps to prevent it.
Understood, "nothing to see".  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on May 30, 2013, 04:33:16 am
Hi Marmad,

Just checking to see if you know what the maximum number of measurements are that can be displayed at one time on the Rigol 2000?

Thanks, EF
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JimmyMz on May 30, 2013, 06:07:58 am
I'm not Marmad, but I'll answer anyway...pardon me Marmad. The max number I read in this thread is 5 measurements, which is one more than the Agilent DSOX2000 series.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Spike101 on May 30, 2013, 08:33:33 am
I'm not Marmad, but I'll answer anyway...pardon me Marmad. The max number I read in this thread is 5 measurements, which is one more than the Agilent DSOX2000 series.
Yes, you can have up to 5 measurements at the bottom of the screen at once, optionally with statistics (min, max, avg).
If you enable "Display all" you get all 20 measurements (no statistics) at once in the middle of the screen (20 per channel, so you can display up to 60, if you enable CH1, CH2 and MATH at the same time).

For most of the measurements (at most one at a time of course), you can also enable automatic cursors, that show the relevant points of the measurement on the waveform (e.g. the 10% and 90% mark for the rise time...)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 30, 2013, 02:29:37 pm
Ok, the very last in my current series of tables  ;D

The waveform update rate of the DS2000 @ 14kPts (single / dual channel - vectors / dots) - tested using a 1MHz sine wave input to channel 1.

What's interesting to note are the following:

1) Rigol has really precisely tuned their design so that the DSO can hit ~50k wfrm/s @ 20ns with a single channel (for the specs and comparisons to DSOX2000 series), but it can't maintain that rate at all with two channels - even though the wfrm/s rates of every other time base setting are fairly similar between single or dual channel.

2) If you are using both channels and want the fastest wfrm/s rate possible, use the 50ns setting instead (using dots, it's the third fastest update rate of the DSO).

3) Dual channel dot mode gives the fastest update rate (faster then single channel vector OR dot mode) at 4 different time base settings.

4) Dual channel dot mode is faster then single channel vector mode at 6 other time base settings.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=50098)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 30, 2013, 04:07:48 pm
Thank you. But what's with the 10ns? Anyway, this DS2000 scope is still better than Hameg HMO, LeCroy Wavejet, Tek DPO2000 or even TDS3000.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 30, 2013, 04:24:00 pm
My last table - really, I promise!  ;D

Rigol DS2000 series acquisition times when using the full 56MPts sample length:

Note: If you do a single-shot with 56MPts @ 1000s time base setting - it will take 7hours, 46 minutes and 40 seconds to complete - grabbing a sample every 0.5ms!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49321)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MrsR on May 30, 2013, 05:20:28 pm
LOL I'm not the only one that thinks so.

It really annoys me because I use Atmel micros a lot and until recently my company only seemed to be able to order stuff from them and RS (who are possibly even worse, but at least tend to deliver in the morning instead of at 4:30 - "next day" my arse). Their range is pathetic and they used to want £7 for a single part that Mouser were doing for £1.50. Even now Atmel will sell you a debugger for $99 while Farnell want £175 for it.
Have to agree Element14 (FARNELL)  2 years ago wanted $58 plus cents for 1 ATMEGA48V and I found a firm who supplied 100 including freight for less. The other thing that bugs me are SMD resistors 0402 pkg & 603s after searching for half an hour finding prices as low as 2 cents you finally find the higher wattage one and the price is $1 to $2 each min order 10 place it in the cart and there's a minimum of 2000 s__t you say and start the circus again :-- RS is nearly as bad but they put available in 5 to 6 wotking days and after ordering it's on back order 3months, :-- wish they would the length of time before placing the order Who gets their ass kicked for the order spread all over the place yeah! the person ordering not the supplier.

THANKS MY RANT FOR THE WEEK
Rachael :-+
PS Why is RIGOLS 2000 Series model 200MHz Min. Time 2.5ns  and the others 5ns wonder if you can trick the 70MHz to 2.5 HEY MARMAD any ideas.  thats todays as I was trying to find the rise time problem on a job this morning.  GOOD SCOPE THOUGH in thanks to DAVE for the recomendation :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: olsenn on May 31, 2013, 04:51:39 am
Rigol is coming out with a DS1000Z series DSO now as well, which I imagine is replacing the DS1000E series. It has 4 channels (which is awesome), 70/100MHz and 30k waveforms/sec, and 12/24M memory points
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jean on May 31, 2013, 08:28:07 pm
Hello group,
I just received my DS2072 yesterday and I am very pleased so far. Since I am currently working on a project involving a shared SPI bus (ADC + TFT screen driven by an Arduino), I have tried the SPI triggering capabilities plus the decoding function, which are very useful, in addition to look very nice. In any case it works quite well.
I was hesitating between this model and a Hameg HMO 1xxx or 2xxx (I have been using Hameg for many years, my old 203-5 is still working well, moreover there is a special offer running up to October 2013, giving the decode option for free when buying a new scope), and I finally went for the Rigol, helped in my choice by the videos (EEV among others) and all the helpful comments on this forums, so thxs guys :)
If I had to find a flaw, I would say the fan is too noisy for my taste, I will probably have a look inside later to check if I can make things quieter. Except this, it is a very nice device that I am discovering with pleasure, I only wish the trial options time were not decreasing so fast :/
Returning to the scope now, I think I am getting addicted! ++
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 31, 2013, 08:39:58 pm
Well, It's quite feature rich.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 31, 2013, 09:25:23 pm
Hello group,
I just received my DS2072 yesterday and I am very pleased so far. Since I am currently working on a project involving a shared SPI bus (ADC + TFT screen driven by an Arduino), I have tried the SPI triggering capabilities plus the decoding function, which are very useful, in addition to look very nice. In any case it works quite well.
I was hesitating between this model and a Hameg HMO 1xxx or 2xxx (I have been using Hameg for many years, my old 203-5 is still working well, moreover there is a special offer running up to October 2013, giving the decode option for free when buying a new scope), and I finally went for the Rigol, helped in my choice by the videos (EEV among others) and all the helpful comments on this forums, so thxs guys :)
If I had to find a flaw, I would say the fan is too noisy for my taste, I will probably have a look inside later to check if I can make things quieter. Except this, it is a very nice device that I am discovering with pleasure, I only wish the trial options time were not decreasing so fast :/
Returning to the scope now, I think I am getting addicted! ++
Welcome Jean! Yes, it's a fun DSO to play with - especially the segment record and record open (history) feature.  :)  I don't mind the fan because my lab has other fans making more noise than the Rigol - but if you plan to open it to change (or alter) the fan, be sure to watch Mike's video on how to remove the warranty sticker without breaking it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGcNS5g9ygg).

Also, be sure to download my software for the DS2000 here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/).

And don't worry about the trial options - we owners have figured out a simple method to reset them - just send me or another regular user here a PM when your time is close to ending  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jean on May 31, 2013, 10:35:36 pm
Quote
Welcome Jean! Yes, it's a fun DSO to play with - especially the segment record and record open (history) feature.  :)  I don't mind the fan because my lab has other fans making more noise than the Rigol - but if you plan to open it to change (or alter) the fan, be sure to watch Mike's video on how to remove the warranty sticker without breaking it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGcNS5g9ygg).

Also, be sure to download my software for the DS2000 here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/).

And don't worry about the trial options - we owners have figured out a simple method to reset them - just send me or another regular user here a PM when your time is close to ending  ;)

Hi Marmad, thanks for your wishes, the links and the useful tips :)

I will not open it right now, since it's brand new, but I admit it's tempting : I use it in a very quiet room, the computer near is almost completely silent (big fans with very low rpm), the only sound I barely hear  is the 50Hz through the PC speakers! so it makes a big difference when the Rigol is turned on, even if it isn't actually that loud. After all, "loud" is subjective and I have heard here and there people saying the 2072 is much more quiet than the 1052/1102 are, so it is also a matter of perception.

For now, next step is  connecting the scope to the computer, and installing the suitable software, including yours; a lot of pleasant time in perspective!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 02, 2013, 01:12:31 pm
A post for new or prospective owners of the DS2000 wondering about 'restarting' trial options. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158714/#msg158714)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: monster on June 02, 2013, 05:30:40 pm
Hi there,

wow, if I'd only had a look at this thread earlier ... I'm an EE student from Austria in his hopefully last year 8) To be independant from my universities lab, I made myself a present in february, a DS2202. My father wanted to have his old Tek 468 back one day anyway ...
Not knowing too much about the internal construction of the scopes, I got the 200MHz variant, since I started working on my master thesis involving deserialization of a 125Mbit/s stream (nope, not ethernet) travelling over 100m of a 75Ohm coax cable. I simply wanted to have a chance to look at the signals I work on in the time domain to see why it's not working 8) Oh, and by the way, the DS2202 does a pretty good job in this setup (using a BNC T-adaptor with 75Ohm termination on one side), just in case this helps someone.

If I'd only knew about the real bandwidth of the DS2000 series, I'd probably chosen the DS2072 and saved a few bucks. Though having the 2ns timebase 'natively' is not the worst that can happen. Since I got the DS2202 from Batronix in Germany, they were also the ones that supplied me with the 00.00.01.00.05 firmware update (mine came with 00.00.01.00.02), and a second trial license code after my "keen attempt to run the self cal" to minimize the offset on channel one during low amplitude measurements.

When I found out about the existence of the amazing RUU software, I was really overwhelmed, not just because I'm quite concerned about the durability of the USB port over time, it adds quite some value to the scope itself. And even if it takes longer to transfer the screen data over SCPI, I tend to network everything via Ethernet, and let scripts do the rest. Sooner or later it just makes sense.

Ok, but enough of that, I do have a question about the FFT under the math menu. I was playing around with an AES3 stream (very similar to S/PDIF, a digital audio stream) and tried to do some spectral analysis as I had EMI issues with a driver interface I built a few weeks ago. While debugging the interface using a DIY h-field probe, the FFT function was really useful. Of course it's no comparison to a real spectrum analyser, but if manage to get decent levels into the scope it seems to work pretty well below 500MHz when some averaging is applied before running the math.
The only thing that puzzles me, how on earth does Rigol calculate the spectrum between one and ten GHz from a 2GS/s stream? I thought the math function would derive its output only from the existing samples and I don't think anything in the DS2202 is going faster than 2GS/s. Since I have no possibilities to generate known spectra in the GHz range, I can't verify whether they just claim to be able to do so. Has anyone with the appropriate equipment ever verified whether the spectrum above 1GHz in FFT mode is just a mathematical interpolation residual? If so, why do they do it?

Greetings from Graz,

Daniel

PS: Let me second that comment of Jean about the noise coming from the cooling fan. Honestly, I can't understand why a system below 50 watts of thermal power dissipation needs a fan that loud. Of course, 'loud' is relative, as marmad already stated, but I believe they could have built something at least 10dB softer. At my desk the Rigol is by far the loudest thing, so probably the first modification will be a different fan 8)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on June 02, 2013, 08:12:25 pm
Hi all,

Have made my mind up and am going to buy the Rigol DS2102......I'm in the UK and can only really see the Rigol UK site as an option to buy..........but I also notice that I can buy via Ebay.

Rigol-uk.co.uk = £835 + vat = £1002 total
Ebay (shipped from China) = £849 total

Apart from Ebay, is there any other options to avoid rip-off-britain prices.......possibly one of Dave's sponsor sites.
I don't mind having top-notch support, I just want a fair deal.

Thanks,

Ian.

UPDATE: Have bought the DS2072.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 02, 2013, 09:07:15 pm
Apart from Ebay, is there any other options to avoid rip-off-britain prices.......possibly one of Dave's sponsor sites.
I don't mind having top-notch support, I just want a fair deal.

UPDATE: Have bought the DS2072.

Well, Ian - if you had waited a little bit before buying (I just now saw your message), I might have been able to steer you to a much better deal/price.

Edit: At the very least, there is always Batronix in Germany: DS2072 = €710 + VAT (or NO VAT if you have a number) + free shipping in EU + 30 days trial period. But I know of an even better deal that's often possible  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on June 02, 2013, 09:14:21 pm
Apart from Ebay, is there any other options to avoid rip-off-britain prices.......possibly one of Dave's sponsor sites.
I don't mind having top-notch support, I just want a fair deal.

UPDATE: Have bought the DS2072.

Well, Ian - if you had waited a little bit before buying (I just now saw your message), I might have been able to steer you to a much better deal/price.

I never bought the 2102 as I had priced up, I bought the 2072.......a helluva lot cheaper.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 02, 2013, 09:22:33 pm
I never bought the 2102 as I had priced up, I bought the 2072.......a helluva lot cheaper.

Still, there were better deals to be had - you didn't wait long enough after your original post. Something is screwy with the Forum notification system today; I'm not getting notified of posts for a LONG time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on June 02, 2013, 10:19:42 pm
Hi all,

Have made my mind up and am going to buy the Rigol DS2102......I'm in the UK and can only really see the Rigol UK site as an option to buy..........but I also notice that I can buy via Ebay.

Rigol-uk.co.uk = £835 + vat = £1002 total
Ebay (shipped from China) = £849 total
UPDATE: Have bought the DS2072.
Be aware, this can be a trap: I do not know how it works in the UK, but I am pretty sure, you will have to pay import VAT when the package arrives in the UK (this is the fact in all European countries). As it will be held at customs (pretty large and heavy box) you will then pay 849 Pounds to China plus import VAT (same as regular VAT) plus customs (3% or so) to the UK. Thus: China is not cheaper than UK.
And then: do you think you can deal with the Chinese dealer about the three year warranty? Rigol Europe will probably decline any warranty as you did not buy a European model (I bet they recognize this on the serial number).
Peter
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bored@Work on June 02, 2013, 10:31:57 pm
you will then pay 849 Pounds to China plus import VAT (same as regular VAT) plus customs (3% or so) to the UK.

VAT yes, customs would be a surprise. There happens to be no customs on importing oscilloscopes into the EU.

Depending on the circumstances there can be other costs which might or might not apply. E.g. cost for currency conversion. Fee  for processing the VAT. And a classic, the ripoff fee carriers like to charge for the import paperwork.
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chet T16 on June 02, 2013, 11:33:42 pm

Edit: At the very least, there is always Batronix in Germany: DS2072 = €710 + VAT (or NO VAT if you have a number) + free shipping in EU + 30 days trial period. But I know of an even better deal that's often possible  ;)

Where has a better deal? I'm looking at getting one and getting it from Batronix seems like the best so far. I have a VAT number.
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 03, 2013, 12:57:04 am
Where has a better deal? I'm looking at getting one and getting it from Batronix seems like the best so far. I have a VAT number.

Check your PMs.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 03, 2013, 01:21:47 am
I've been reading this thread with great enthusiasm and decided to join the forum.  I first found out about the DS2072 from Dave's blog and have decided to pull the trigger on one.  I'd prefer to purchase from a US distributor if I can find one who has any in stock.

I sent a request for quote to TEquipment on Saturday but probably won't get a response until at least Monday.  But from what I've been seeing on this group, nobody in the US has had any in stock for quite a while.

If someone in the group has a suggestion for a reputable US supplier, or even a supplier outside the US who can ship here for a reasonable price and lead time, please let me know.

I really am enjoying this discussion group.

--Van 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 03, 2013, 06:34:47 am
Hi everyone!

As long as so many people are introducing...  ;) I'm a engineer student from Switzerland and was looking for a decent DSO in a good price range and found this forum and all the awesome videos from the blog. So about two months ago I went for a DS2072 after having a look at the Owon ones. And I'm, like many of you, very pleased with the scope. Especially with the build quality. I'm still learning how to get the most out of this scope and eagerly follow this topic with all its information.

For all the "many" people out there looking for the scope in Switzerland, I got mine from Maxdata (http://electronic.maxdata.ch/oszilloskope-rigol/new---ds2000/index.php (http://electronic.maxdata.ch/oszilloskope-rigol/new---ds2000/index.php)), the Swiss distributor of Rigol. If you ask politely they will even give you a small students discount. It won't be the absolutely cheapest way to get one, but as you will know taxes are a pain in the a** here in CH when ordering from abroad.

Thanks for all your work, I'll be happy to contribute as soon as I will see a way how  I can catch up to your level.  :)

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Spike101 on June 03, 2013, 06:51:49 am
Regarding Batronix:
They currently have a deal for readers of the "Elektor" magacine (only until June 10, so you have to be quick decided.. :)), where you can get the DS2072 for 799EUR incl. VAT and delivery in the EU (they also have deals for the 100Mhz and 200Mhz versions).
See http://www.batronix.com/versand/aktionen/Elektor-Sonderaktion.html (http://www.batronix.com/versand/aktionen/Elektor-Sonderaktion.html) for details. Not sure, if you need a subscription to the magacine to get the deal though..
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on June 03, 2013, 10:34:54 am
Where has a better deal? I'm looking at getting one and getting it from Batronix seems like the best so far. I have a VAT number.

Check your PMs.

Marmad can you inform me about this too? I also have a VAT number if that would matter. Thanks :)
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 03, 2013, 10:51:12 am
Marmad can you inform me about this too? I also have a VAT number if that would matter. Thanks :)

Done  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on June 03, 2013, 10:58:26 am
I never bought the 2102 as I had priced up, I bought the 2072.......a helluva lot cheaper.

Still, there were better deals to be had - you didn't wait long enough after your original post. Something is screwy with the Forum notification system today; I'm not getting notified of posts for a LONG time.

Hi,

My supplier just called me and said 2 to 3 weeks delivery so I have the chance to cancel the order.........so do you have somewhere else I can try. I've to call them back tomorrow to let them know what I wish to do.
PS. I got offered the DS2102 at 5% less than list price to stay with them.......but that doesn't interest me.

DS2072 it has to be.

Ian.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on June 03, 2013, 11:25:24 am
It would seem the DS2072 is actually the harder one to get.  I wonder why the dealers seem to have bet on selling the 100MHz variant?  I wonder if they are selling many 2102s?

It took me about 6-7 weeks to get one through the local dealer here.  No doubt I could have got it sooner from OS, but I didn't have to pay for postage through Emona.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 03, 2013, 01:48:45 pm
I received a PM from this group confirming good rep of TEquipment.  The online chat girl said they expected stock in 2 weeks.  So I ordered.  Now, I go into the constantly-checking-status-of-order mode...

--Van
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on June 03, 2013, 04:29:22 pm
The online chat girl said they expected stock in 2 weeks.
I've generally had a good impression of their customer service and attitude, but bad luck with delivery timing.

My most recent order had a lead time of 5 wks, which I found out on the "order status" page a few days after placing the order.  You could say it's my fault for not asking for a quote to get stock status ahead of time, but with such a long lead time a note on the product page or at checkout would have been nice.  On top of that, I requested a quote for the same item about a week after the sale just for the heck of it, to see what timing estimate I'd get that way.  The quote said "Notes: Lead time is 2 weeks."  I called in to get to the bottom of it and found out the quote was mistaken - the leadtime was still 5 weeks (so 6 weeks from the time of my sale).

According to UPS the order left their dock just shy of 4 weeks after the sale.  That's 4 weeks late, 2 weeks early, or 1 week late depending on what version of info the customer got and depending on whether one believes month+ backordered status should be identified on the product page or at checkout (or only mentioned when the customer asks for it).

I wrote them about this in response to a "let us show you why we're better" email back on April 5th and haven't heard back, but then I viewed it more as a comment slip and wasn't necessarily expecting a response.

Everyone - even the best of companies - has issues sometimes where a series of improbable coincidences can't be avoided.  Also, I've only ordered from them twice so that's a pretty small sample size.  Many other people have had good things to say so I'd like to believe my experiences have been the exception to the rule.  When my orders did arrive, both were packaged well and the contents were in great shape and working order (and were the correct contents).  That's most important to me, so I would order from them again and give them a 3rd chance.

Even so, if it's really important your scope ships in 2 weeks I'd double-check, possibly by email or requesting a quote.  Then I'd check again  :P
 
 
Edit: Forgot to add my credit card was not charged until the order shipped, which was nice.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Leon on June 03, 2013, 05:43:41 pm
I never bought the 2102 as I had priced up, I bought the 2072.......a helluva lot cheaper.

Still, there were better deals to be had - you didn't wait long enough after your original post. Something is screwy with the Forum notification system today; I'm not getting notified of posts for a LONG time.
I'm also curious about the deal you're talking about. Could you PM me?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on June 03, 2013, 06:57:41 pm
Hi all,

Well I tried a few dealers and suppliers, including some mentioned in this thread and nobody has a 2072, they all say the same i.e. 2 - 3 weeks.

Appreciate all who have tried but I think I'll just stick with my own UK dealer and wait the time......:-(

Boys and their toys eh!  ::)

Ian.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jean on June 03, 2013, 07:14:16 pm

Quote
The difference between Men and Boys
 is the price of their Toys

 The one with the most Toys , Wins   :-DD

...or the biggest  :P

I have ordered mine (DS2072) from Ovio, France on Monday and got it on Thursday. The girl told me it was the last one though; 849€ VAT included. Maybe an alternative to other european shops, since they seem to be professional and reactive..
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neilhao on June 04, 2013, 01:44:22 am
Same experience, I ordered my DS2202 from Tequipment.NET, the product page did not mention about the lead time.
My order was placed on 04/13/2013, and I finally got the DSO on 05/14/2013.

By the way, according to the UPS label, the DSO was shipped from the Rigol Technologies Inc. USA, OH to me directly.

According to above experience. In future, I will order from the Rigol's official site (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ds2202/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ds2202/)) directly, if Tequipment.NET has no stock.


Neil


The online chat girl said they expected stock in 2 weeks.
I've generally had a good impression of their customer service and attitude, but bad luck with delivery timing.

My most recent order had a lead time of 5 wks, which I found out on the "order status" page a few days after placing the order.  You could say it's my fault for not asking for a quote to get stock status ahead of time, but with such a long lead time a note on the product page or at checkout would have been nice.  On top of that, I requested a quote for the same item about a week after the sale just for the heck of it, to see what timing estimate I'd get that way.  The quote said "Notes: Lead time is 2 weeks."  I called in to get to the bottom of it and found out the quote was mistaken - the leadtime was still 5 weeks (so 6 weeks from the time of my sale).

According to UPS the order left their dock just shy of 4 weeks after the sale.  That's 4 weeks late, 2 weeks early, or 1 week late depending on what version of info the customer got and depending on whether one believes month+ backordered status should be identified on the product page or at checkout (or only mentioned when the customer asks for it).

I wrote them about this in response to a "let us show you why we're better" email back on April 5th and haven't heard back, but then I viewed it more as a comment slip and wasn't necessarily expecting a response.

Everyone - even the best of companies - has issues sometimes where a series of improbable coincidences can't be avoided.  Also, I've only ordered from them twice so that's a pretty small sample size.  Many other people have had good things to say so I'd like to believe my experiences have been the exception to the rule.  When my orders did arrive, both were packaged well and the contents were in great shape and working order (and were the correct contents).  That's most important to me, so I would order from them again and give them a 3rd chance.

Even so, if it's really important your scope ships in 2 weeks I'd double-check, possibly by email or requesting a quote.  Then I'd check again  :P
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on June 04, 2013, 02:35:14 am
It's either a clever marketing strategy or Rigol severely underestimated the demand. 

Anybody tried to buy a Wee console when it first came out? ;)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neilhao on June 04, 2013, 02:59:16 am
I think Rigol just used lenovo's marketing strategy, they want to minimize the stock. In China, the electoral industry has unbelievable  supply chain, you can get the PCB from the factory within 12 hours, get all parts need for a product with no time (you even can get all you need within one building).  Thus, they want to build a product after receive the order which can minimize the risk.


Neil

It's either a clever marketing strategy or Rigol severely underestimated the demand. 

Anybody tried to buy a Wee console when it first came out? ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on June 04, 2013, 04:04:18 am
I have been following this thread the last few months but this is my first post so I guess I'm a newbie. During that relatively short period I have purchased a DSA815-TG, DG4162, and a DS4022 which I returned for a DS2202. I wasn't going to replace my old HP DSO but thanks to Marmad and Dave's reviews I couldn't resist and am now broke. ;D The 4022 was a nice scope but with averaging and hi-res turned off, it had a 3mV noise level on the lowest scale (1mV/div) which was just too much for me. I am in the USA so I purchased the Analyzer and scope directly from Rigol NA. With them, shipping is not free but I felt more confident purchasing through them. Rigol NA has been very responsive and did the 4022/2202 swap no questions asked. Since Rigol did not have the DG4162 in stock and TEquipment did, I purchased the function generator from them. Shipping took a little longer but I still received the unit in about 1 week.
I did experience what I thought was a problem with the 2202. After powering it up cold with channel 1 & 2 set at max sensitivity of 500uV/div, the DC balance takes about 10 minutes of warm-up to settle. (see attached screen shots) Performing a self cal did not correct the issue. I returned it to Rigol NA and they shipped another one again, with no questions asked. Sadly it exhibits the same behavior so I can only assume they all have this issue. :(
I haven't seen any posts about it so has anyone else noticed this?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on June 04, 2013, 04:10:13 am
Here are 2 more screen shots of the DC balance problem with averaging turned off.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neilhao on June 04, 2013, 06:36:22 am
Rigol will give their Agents some discounts. This is why Tequipment.net could offer free shipping. The discounts to the Agents could even be 40% of the list price I think.
For my real experience, around 2006, I ordered a VS5062D. The list price was 10000RMB, I got it from a local agent who is my friend, finally I got the MSO for only 6000RMB with free shipping.

If you know how lenovo make the computers, you will know why everyone have to wait almost 4 weeks.  For the relative expensive product, they will just start to buy required parts after receiving your order, and then they have to assemble those parts and ship it to the Rigol in Ohio from the beijing city, China, finally the Rigol in Ohio will ship it to you. Based on the modern logistics industry and the efficient supply chain of China, they can do all above procedures within 4 weeks, this should already be a kind of miracle.

For reduce the cost and enhance the supply chain, they started to use the ADC form the MXTronics Corporation which is belong to the China Aerospace System, MXTronics participated in the Chinese  Shenzhou Spaceship Project. More important thing is, the MXTronics Corporation is also in the Beijing City, thus Rigol can expect shorter lead time to get the required ADCs than ordering them form the US Corporation.

For the cost, as what I remembered, the US gov prohibited to export the ADCs which has the sampling rate higher than 400M samples/s to China, thus Rigol had to use multi-ADCs for higher BW, and they even had to overclock the ADCs. But today, they just need one or two ADCs which can reduce the cost and the noise sufficiently.

What they want is Zero Stock. They do not expect to have any product in the warehouse, and every penny is available for investing.


Neil

According to above experience.
In future, I will order from the Rigol's official site ,
if Tequipment.NET has no stock.
Neil

All my Rigol orders with Tequipment came from Rigol in Ohio .
I did check with Rigol and it was more expensive
and I needed to pay the shipping and same delivery time.
At this time the world supply is Low,
 Why?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 04, 2013, 07:05:41 am
For the relative expensive product, they will just start to buy required parts after receiving your order, and then they have to assemble those parts...
...which doesn't necessarely have to be a negative thing for us too, beside you have to wait for your new toy (I know waiting isn't funny, I was able to pick mine up 6h after I placed my order 15km from my home). But this way there are few out-of-date units in stock. This way they can react fast on hardware problems and apply fixes in the production process, alongside with shipping the units with the most recent firmwares. So besides all negative effects of this policity there are also benefits for us customers.

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on June 04, 2013, 07:08:04 am
TENEYES
Thanks for the tips. For this test there was nothing connected to the inputs. I tried terminating the inputs with 50 ohms and there was no difference but I think the noise @ this 200MHz bandwidth is quite good and I am satisfied with the 2202. It was the 4022 that bothered me a bit with 3.5mV noise. The 3 division thermal drift on channel 1 is annoying but If I need to use the 500uV range I just let it warm up for 10 minutes. The trigger level doesn't seem to have any effect on the thermal drift.                                                 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on June 04, 2013, 08:11:04 am
I did experience what I thought was a problem with the 2202. After powering it up cold with channel 1 & 2 set at max sensitivity of 500uV/div, the DC balance takes about 10 minutes of warm-up to settle. (see attached screen shots) Performing a self cal did not correct the issue. I returned it to Rigol NA and they shipped another one again, with no questions asked. Sadly it exhibits the same behavior so I can only assume they all have this issue. :(
I haven't seen any posts about it so has anyone else noticed this?

Yes mine does the same, at least as bad as what you've described,and strangely enough only on channel 1.  CH2 is steady from boot.  Also I needed to do a self-cal on mine right from the outset, even after warm up it was off by at least 3 div on 500uV/div.

However, no big deal.  Just let it warm up before you use that range.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 04, 2013, 09:37:45 am

On power up at 500 uV:

On my 2072, ch 2 was steady, and ch1 was 1 div off after warm up. Not bad on 0.5 mV
and 1 dev noise on normal,  with terminator on.


a self-cal was done yesterday.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on June 04, 2013, 11:00:12 am
Rigol will give their Agents some discounts. This is why Tequipment.net could offer free shipping. The discounts to the Agents could even be 40% of the list price I think.

Many years ago I was in the electronics retail trade (as a trade supplier/importer) and the markup the shops we supplied made was in the order of 60% on average.
It was a real eye opener seeing what we actually purchased the goods for.

Ian.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 04, 2013, 11:10:37 am
TENEYES
Thanks for the tips. For this test there was nothing connected to the inputs. I tried terminating the inputs with 50 ohms and there was no difference but I think the noise @ this 200MHz bandwidth is quite good and I am satisfied with the 2202. It was the 4022 that bothered me a bit with 3.5mV noise. The 3 division thermal drift on channel 1 is annoying but If I need to use the 500uV range I just let it warm up for 10 minutes. The trigger level doesn't seem to have any effect on the thermal drift.                                               

@jsykes: Welcome to the forum! Thanks for pointing this out (mine does the same), but I do have to wonder if it's really an issue. I was always taught to let T&M equipment warm up - granted, that was mostly in an analog era  ;) - but it still seems to be applicable nowadays (hence the 30 minute warm-up before calibration). And since the DS2000 has the extra sensitive front-end (500uV), it perhaps makes even more sense.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 04, 2013, 11:57:36 am
I may have missed this from all the discussion about how self calibration clears the trial counters:  So, how does one calibrate a new scope yet preserve the counters?

--Van
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on June 04, 2013, 12:04:46 pm
I may have missed this from all the discussion about how self calibration clears the trial counters:  So, how does one calibrate a new scope yet preserve the counters?

--Van

As far as I know, you don't. Nice people on this forum tell you how to get it back  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on June 05, 2013, 12:35:21 am
@ marmad
I just wonder if the "better" brands i.e. Tek and HP exhibit thermal drift at max sensitivity settings? Maybe Dave can attest to this since he has reviewed them.
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 05, 2013, 12:44:37 am
@ marmad
I just wonder if the "better" brands i.e. Tek and HP exhibit thermal drift at max sensitivity settings? Maybe Dave can attest to this since he has reviewed them.

@jsykes: I'm just not sure thermal drift is the correct description of what's happening. I always thought of thermal drift as an unintended or unplanned drift away from the normal operating parameters due to temperature. When I turn on my DSO and watch the traces, it appears as if Rigol engineers have calculated the normal operating parameters to match exactly with the stabilized operating temperature of the internal circuitry.

Again, it's no coincidence that DSO makers always want you to warm up the scope 30 minutes before doing a self-calibration (and some of them mention doing it before making delicate measurements). The specifications of the DSO are accurate only for a stabilized ambient temperature.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 05, 2013, 02:17:04 am
It's not just DSOs, either.  Quoted from the Agilent 34401a calibration procedure:

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 05, 2013, 07:21:24 am
Hi guys!

A quick question, I hope I didn't miss it being already covered in the last 78 (!!!  :-+) pages. Having used my scope several times now, I still can't get how to enable or disable measurements from the left-side meu. I find it very hard to see the logic of that. Sometimes new measurements appear on the right side, sometimes it shifts the older measurements and appears somewhere between the already activated ones. Is there any way that Rigol will change that very annoiing behaviour any time soon?Thank god they listened to us about the inverted X-Y mode...

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jean on June 05, 2013, 11:00:55 am
Hi guys!

A quick question, I hope I didn't miss it being already covered in the last 78 (!!!  :-+) pages. Having used my scope several times now, I still can't get how to enable or disable measurements from the left-side meu. I find it very hard to see the logic of that. Sometimes new measurements appear on the right side, sometimes it shifts the older measurements and appears somewhere between the already activated ones. Is there any way that Rigol will change that very annoiing behaviour any time soon?Thank god they listened to us about the inverted X-Y mode...

XaS

Hi XaS,

To disable them, use "Measure" button, then choose "Clear" menu, you can now delete any of the 5 items (measures), you can also disable all of them by pressing "All items". It's possible to "undo" everything by choosing "Recover".

Hope it helps :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ct on June 05, 2013, 12:00:55 pm
I start following this topic after I watched Marmad's review of the Rigol 2072 oscilloscope. ...And here is another new owner of the Rigol 2072. I'm a beginner in electronics, with some ties in the past, but I'm very excited to have just bought a tool I can use to see what's going on inside my or others' electronic circuits. And what a tool it is! Also, it's good to see experienced users exploring the features and sharing information about this oscilloscope. For us, beginners, it's priceless. Thanks.
OK, too much excitement here. I'm going back to work now, but I can't wait to use the oscilloscope again.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 05, 2013, 12:08:09 pm
Having used my scope several times now, I still can't get how to enable or disable measurements from the left-side meu. I find it very hard to see the logic of that. Sometimes new measurements appear on the right side, sometimes it shifts the older measurements and appears somewhere between the already activated ones.

@Xas: I can't say that I've seen that behavior. When I add a measurement, it always appears in the first 'open' position (of five positions) farthest right - or if all positions are filled (i.e. 5 measurements already on screen), all of them move one position to the left (the farthest left disappears), and the new one again appears farthest right. For deleting them, as Jean mentioned, you have many options under the 'Measure' menu.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 05, 2013, 12:15:29 pm
Hi Jean

Thanks for your tip. I always use the clear all method. Sadly that doesn't solve my problem. To clarify what I mean:

- Select Period Measurement on CH1 and after that the same on CH2. You got now:
   |  Period CH1 | Period CH2 | empty | empty | empty |

- Now clear all measurements, you get:
   |  empty | empty | empty | empty | empty |

- Now select Period Measurement on CH2. You get:
   |  Period CH2 | empty | empty | empty | empty |

- Select Period Measurement on CH1. I would like it to appear on the right of Period Measurement CH2, like this:
   |  Period CH2Period CH1 | empty | empty | empty |

Instead I get the same as after the first step. I see no way to sort the measurements the way I like besides fill all measurement slots with garbage, delete them and then fill them in the right order.

XaS

Edit: Sorry marmad, I didn't see your post before I saved mine. The problem is in re-activating a measurement which is still in a recovery-slot. In my opinion, this recover option messes up the order. No big deal but sometimes annoying to me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 05, 2013, 12:34:54 pm
- Select Period Measurement on CH1. I would like it to appear on the right of Period Measurement CH2, like this:
   |  Period CH2Period CH1 | empty | empty | empty |

Instead I get the same as after the first step. I see no way to sort the measurements the way I like besides fill all measurement slots with garbage, delete them and then fill them in the right order.

Hmm... I get exactly what you would like to get (as shown above) - I don't get the same as after the first step  ???

For me, the Recover options don't seem to have any effect if I've used 'All Items' -> 'Delete'.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on June 05, 2013, 12:40:35 pm
- Select Period Measurement on CH1. I would like it to appear on the right of Period Measurement CH2, like this:
   |  Period CH2Period CH1 | empty | empty | empty |

Instead I get the same as after the first step. I see no way to sort the measurements the way I like besides fill all measurement slots with garbage, delete them and then fill them in the right order.

Hmm... I get exactly what you would like to get (as shown above) - I don't get the same as after the first step  ???

For me, the Recover options don't seem to have any effect if I've used 'All Items' -> 'Delete'.

I get the same as marmad too.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 05, 2013, 12:41:31 pm
marmad and orbiter, thanks for checking with your units. I still run v00.00.01.00.05, maybe this is fixed in the most recent software version?

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jean on June 05, 2013, 12:42:26 pm
I have the same behaviour as XaS :

- clear all
- period on ch1 then ch2 => period period
- clear all
- period on ch2 then ch1 => period period

Firmware 00.00.01.00.05
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jean on June 05, 2013, 12:43:57 pm
I start following this topic after I watched Marmad's review of the Rigol 2072 oscilloscope. ...And here is another new owner of the Rigol 2072. I'm a beginner in electronics, with some ties in the past, but I'm very excited to have just bought a tool I can use to see what's going on inside my or others' electronic circuits. And what a tool it is! Also, it's good to see experienced users exploring the features and sharing information about this oscilloscope. For us, beginners, it's priceless. Thanks.
OK, too much excitement here. I'm going back to work now, but I can't wait to use the oscilloscope again.

Welcome and enjoy the scope :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 05, 2013, 12:47:57 pm
marmad and orbiter, thanks for checking with your units. I still run v00.00.01.00.05, maybe this is fixed in the most recent software version?

XaS

Yes, I think it must be; I'm using FW 01.00.00.03. What about you, orbiter?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on June 05, 2013, 12:51:31 pm
marmad and orbiter, thanks for checking with your units. I still run v00.00.01.00.05, maybe this is fixed in the most recent software version?

XaS

Same here marmad.. FW v.01.00.00.03

@XaS.. The latest FW does indeed sort out a few issues on the scope, as shown on page one of this thread via marmads excellent compilation of info. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 05, 2013, 12:56:01 pm
@XaS.. The latest FW does indeed sort out a few issues on the scope, as shown on page one of this thread via marmads excellent compilation of info. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)
Although the latest firmware also adds one NEW measurement bug (#13) which you will have to workaround until the next release.

But really, v.01.00.00.03 fixes so many bugs and annoyances (especially the way that the DSO didn't update the display quickly enough in earlier versions) - it's definitely worth the upgrade (even with the new bug).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 05, 2013, 01:03:35 pm
Thank you all for checking, it seems to be solved in 01.00.00.03 indeed. I couldn't find this particular problem in the first post, that's why I asked here. It seems like this wasn't discovered so far.

@marmad: Yes, #13 is a bummer. But as far as I know it is also possible to downgrade if it gets too annoying, right? Also, if you could check your email if you've got a minute to spare...  ;)

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 05, 2013, 01:12:48 pm
Thank you all for checking, it seems to be solved in 01.00.00.03 indeed. I couldn't find this particular problem in the first post, that's why I asked here. It seems like this wasn't discovered so far.

@marmad: Yes, #13 is a bummer. But as far as I know it is also possible to downgrade if it gets too annoying, right? Also, if you could check your email if you've got a minute to spare...  ;)

XaS
Yes, you can downgrade - and I've sent you email  ;)  But make sure you do upgrading/downgrading via the bootloader, as described in that same post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 05, 2013, 01:41:08 pm
With 00.01.00.00.03, the measurement section reacts now as I wanted it to. Thanks all you guys!  :-+

By the way, I just wanted to install a new, more silent fan. Lifting the sticker was no problem at all, but inside, on the screws holdung the metal case, there is a nasty, thin red film of colour. Any scratches will be obvious. Now I've got to wait for 33 months untill I get a silent DSO...  :'(

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 05, 2013, 01:44:46 pm
By the way, I just wanted to install a new, more silent fan. Lifting the sticker was no problem at all, but inside, on the screws holdung the metal case, there is a nasty, thin red film of colour. Any scratches will be obvious. Now I've got to wait for 33 months untill I get a silent DSO...  :'(

You mean something like loctite (https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&q=loctite+for+screws&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.47380653,d.d2k&biw=1920&bih=1042&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=YkCvUYytG8ix0AXUkIDIAg)? If so, it's easy enough to touch-up if you crack the film, and later need to return the DSO for warranty (since you'd have to put the original fan back as well).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on June 05, 2013, 01:46:53 pm
Or just remove ALL the red stuff :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 05, 2013, 02:00:21 pm
It could easily be Loctite. But it's not on the thread to secure the screw but only on the head itself. To me it looks like its only purpose is to reveal when someone has tampered with the screws. That's why I don't know if it is wise to remove, let alone possible to remove it completely. Finally I got a device with 36 months warranty and now I can't wait until its over....  ;D

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 05, 2013, 03:02:11 pm
It could easily be Loctite. But it's not on the thread to secure the screw but only on the head itself. To me it looks like its only purpose is to reveal when someone has tampered with the screws. That's why I don't know if it is wise to remove, let alone possible to remove it completely. Finally I got a device with 36 months warranty and now I can't wait until its over....  ;D

Loctite (or something similar) is often applied under and over the head (as opposed to the threads). Nothing suspicious about it like that - I've seen it many many times.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 05, 2013, 03:43:47 pm
I had a closer look on this red loctite. Its not solvable in anything I have here (Ethanol, Methanol, rubbing alcohol, lighter fluid etc.). So from my point of view there is no way to get rid of it, hence not possible to open the DSO further without them clearly noticing it when looking for intrusion marks. Perhaps they reacted with this on the newer models because of the sticker removal procedure getting known.

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on June 05, 2013, 03:54:03 pm
Thank you all for checking, it seems to be solved in 01.00.00.03 indeed. I couldn't find this particular problem in the first post, that's why I asked here. It seems like this wasn't discovered so far.
I noticed it, but didn't think it was a bug. Since turning measurements on/off is so unergonomic I just thought it was expected behaviour. Nice to see they fixed it, I hadn't noticed yet.

I'd still prefer pressing a measurement that already exists to toggle it off and not give a useless error on screen, going into the measure menu is cumbersome when they've got a dedicated always-present menu just for measurements.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Ruben57 on June 06, 2013, 02:19:28 am
I’ve encountered a problem with my DS4024 which is similar to problems people have had with their DS2000 series. After reading through this thread (79 pages!) I found out why my trial options disappeared overnight (I did a self calibration :palm:). Anyhow, I  ‘understand’  the situation on the DS2000 series but I was wondering if there was something similar for the DS4000 series? I have looked around but can't find it anywhere.

Also, I found a minor bug with the DS4024 and was wondering if that bug was present on the DS2000 series as well, since they appear to share a similar platform. Paul Price started a thread in the General Chat section and I detailed the bug in that thread, so rather than repeating it here you can read it there.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds4024-sweep-behavior/15/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds4024-sweep-behavior/15/)

There is also an odd display characteristic on the DS4024, which is detailed in that thread. Does the DS2000 series also behave like that?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 06, 2013, 11:13:32 am
I’ve encountered a problem with my DS4024 which is similar to problems people have had with their DS2000 series. After reading through this thread (79 pages!) I found out why my trial options disappeared overnight (I did a self calibration :palm:). Anyhow, I  ‘understand’  the situation on the DS2000 series but I was wondering if there was something similar for the DS4000 series? I have looked around but can't find it anywhere.
I don't know about this - I haven't heard anything one way or the other.

Quote
Also, I found a minor bug with the DS4024 and was wondering if that bug was present on the DS2000 series as well, since they appear to share a similar platform. Paul Price started a thread in the General Chat section and I detailed the bug in that thread, so rather than repeating it here you can read it there.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds4024-sweep-behavior/15/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds4024-sweep-behavior/15/)
I just tested at 200ms/div, trigger position at 1.414s (see attached image) - no problem.

Quote
There is also an odd display characteristic on the DS4024, which is detailed in that thread. Does the DS2000 series also behave like that?
Yes, the DS2000 does the same, but it's clear to me what Rigol are doing. It has to do with intensity grading/persistence: extend the 'Display' menu, and watch the 'PersistTime' selection when you switch from 100ms -> 200ms - it grays out - meaning it's no longer active above 100ms. At <= 100ms/div, the Rigol is capturing full screens of data so that they can be combined into the intensity/persistence map (impossible to do when 'rolling'). Whether you like this behavior or not is a question of preference, but that appears to be why they're doing it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jamesb on June 06, 2013, 12:38:16 pm
I just recently received my DS2202 and I'm loving it so far!
Thanks for all of the information in this thread - at well over 70 pages, it seems I've got some reading to do :)

When I first bought the scope, I (not knowing any better) did a self-calibration but somehow did not lose the trial licenses. I'll be sure to check what firmware version I've got but my suspicions are that it is the 01.00.00.05 version.

Man .. what a difference from my dying Tek 465 !! This thing is simply unbelievable!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mklimasz on June 06, 2013, 12:44:14 pm
Hello

This is my first post in this blog, so if I miss something or misread the (lenghty) thread then please just point me to the right source. I have found some posts regarding the subject of my interest, but found no definite answer to my questions... In particular: Will that scope fit into the job?

I'm planning to buy a scope (DS2072?) for hunting signal instabilities (phase shifts, glitches) in AVR applications. Having said that, the primary signal sources would be non-periodic transmission bursts, carried directly between peripherals or via serial line buffers & cables, of a carrier certainly not more than 10MHz (with possible extension towards 20MHz in the future). I expect these to be pretty stable (as I've taken every effort possible while designing the circuits, and also keeping the transmission rates sane) but want to make sure what's really happening and how far from instability the circuits are. I'm wondering (as already stated above) if that scope would fit in. I already asked the distributor (I live in Poland) to setup the test bench to check how capable in glitches-hunting the scope really is (signals of before-mentioned nature, testing for min pulse duration that would be consistently recognized as problem / triggered properly; also testing under which settings the detection would run best (wfs/s), and: how much amplitude / main waveform placement of the glitch is enough to get through triggering routine). Real life experience, however, may render different results, and that's why I'm interested in getting an independent opinion.

At the moment I think the most effective would be to trigger the scope whenever a pulse below certain duration is detected (while I can evaluate what to expect on the signal lines based on transmission parameters / clock of the core used), however that's the second question I'd like Your opinion about: Would that be a proper way of triggering, or my idea is not correct?

I'd really appreciate Your point of view, as I'd like to spend on a scope wisely (and, most preferably, only once). It may equally show that Rigol is enough or that I should still save more to get the right scope for the purpose...

Kind regards,
Michal
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Ruben57 on June 06, 2013, 12:57:48 pm
Thanks for taking the time to check marmad. Yes, that makes sense, I think you are right in that it is related to the persistence function. Persistence at 100ms is not all that useful anyhow. It would have been better if Rigol shifted that point from 200ms (199ms) to 1ms.

I’m going to contact the distributor that I bought this DS4024 from tomorrow and see if they can do something about the options that I prematurely expired. I will also inform them about this display glitch/bug so that can hopefully pass it on to Rigol. Perhaps Rigol will even move the starting point of the persistence function to 1ms as well. I will report back if anything interesting comes of it.

Thanks again.   :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ThomasB on June 06, 2013, 06:49:38 pm
Hello,
after watching the excellent review and reading all the good comments in this community I bought a Rigol DS2202, it arrived yesterday. At least the basic feature are very easy and intuitive to use ;-) After not using a oscilloscope for more than ten years everything worked out of the box, perfect ;-) Now I've to read the manual and try out all the possible feature, so I think the next nights will be a bit longer than normal ;-)
I think the latest Firmware version is 00.00.01.00.05 correct? My one is 00.00.01.00.02 :-(
I'll try to get the latest one from Batronix where I bought the oscilloscope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 06, 2013, 07:38:12 pm
Prompted by another thread,
There is the selection of Anti-Alias on or off, but Does the DS2000 only allow 'AA' under a rnage of specific settings?  (X sec/div - Y sec/div)

Honestly, I wonder if the AA actually works (or works well) on the DS2000. Can anyone post 'before' and 'after' screen shots of the AA making a noticeable difference?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 06, 2013, 08:08:15 pm
Honestly, I wonder if the AA actually works (or works well) on the DS2000. Can anyone post 'before' and 'after' screen shots of the AA making a noticeable difference?
Actually, I saw the effect of AA yesterday by accident. I had an 1kHz sine wave on both channels, both with some serious noise on them (it was an audio signal from a laptop). Edge trigger had some problems on catching the sine waves steadily and the curves jittered left and right. Due to false manipulation I switched on AA accidentially and I got the sine waves as if they were amplitude modulated with about 0.5Hz. They slowly went from a flat signal to the full sine waves and the back again to zero. Since I wasn't interested in this, I have no evidence on it happening. And right now I can't reach the DSO...

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on June 06, 2013, 08:08:20 pm
Is there any reason to switch off the Anti-Alias function?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 06, 2013, 08:14:17 pm
Is there any reason to switch off the Anti-Alias function?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-474-gw-instek-gds-2000a-series-oscilloscope-unboxing-fi/msg242748/#msg242748 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-474-gw-instek-gds-2000a-series-oscilloscope-unboxing-fi/msg242748/#msg242748)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 06, 2013, 08:15:46 pm
Honestly, I wonder if the AA actually works (or works well) on the DS2000. Can anyone post 'before' and 'after' screen shots of the AA making a noticeable difference?
Actually, I saw the effect of AA yesterday by accident. I had an 1kHz sine wave on both channels, both with some serious noise on them (it was an audio signal from a laptop). Edge trigger had some problems on catching the sine waves steadily and the curves jittered left and right. Due to false manipulation I switched on AA accidentially and I got the sine waves as if they were amplitude modulated with about 0.5Hz. They slowly went from a flat signal to the full sine waves and the back again to zero. Since I wasn't interested in this, I have no evidence on it happening. And right now I can't reach the DSO...

XaS

Thanks, Xas. Any idea what time base you were on so I can try to replicate?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on June 06, 2013, 08:22:58 pm
Is there any reason to switch off the Anti-Alias function?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-474-gw-instek-gds-2000a-series-oscilloscope-unboxing-fi/msg242748/#msg242748 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-474-gw-instek-gds-2000a-series-oscilloscope-unboxing-fi/msg242748/#msg242748)
Oh, That's weird. At DSOX2002A there is no such feature, or it's probably still ON.  :palm: Dave could not produce any aliasing with this scope. Well, the scope is Apple-like, we know.  :palm:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 06, 2013, 08:46:30 pm
Ok, I ran over to my friends house and have the DS2072 back here now.

First, with 1kHz sine and 500us time base, there is an effect. Without AA, the sine wave jitters arround like hell. With AA on, the display rate is MUCH slower (I'd say about 4fps compared to >20fps before) and the sine wave is more or less shown stable.

So far I fail to reproduce the effets I saw yesterday. I'll keep on trying for a minute or two...

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 06, 2013, 08:51:21 pm
@EV: I think you were the one that originally posted about the Anti-Alias bug. Can you please confirm that Anti-Aliasing is working in the current FW with a 'before' and 'after' screen shot?


First, with 1kHz sine and 500us time base, there is an effect. Without AA, the sine wave jitters arround like hell. With AA on, the display rate is MUCH slower (I'd say about 4fps compared to >20fps before) and the sine wave is more or less shown stable.

Hmm.. but at the 500us/div time base, the sample rate is 2MSa/s - plenty fast enough to reproduce a 1kHz wave without any aliasing. On my DSO, it is rock solid (no aliasing) with those settings.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 06, 2013, 09:06:08 pm
Ok, got it now. I don't know if this is a real difference or just a problem of the UI.

The key was to turn on averaging, too. On 1kHz, 100us time base, average = 2, there is a remarkable difference in the amplitude of the signal, depending if the AA is on or off. (The values with AA off seem to be correct.)

By the way, I noticed that since v01.00.00.03, the Quick Print files are called DS2... instead of DSX... and there is a header with the model number, serial, date and time on top. So far, I couldn't figure out a way to switch it off. Is this new with v01.00.00.03?

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 06, 2013, 09:17:17 pm
Honestly, in the 7 months I've had the DSO, I never tried using the Anti-Aliasing (I was taught too well to look out for aliasing - so I never really worry about being 'fooled'). Now that I'm trying to test it, it doesn't really seem to work (unless I'm missing something obvious). And I've just tried downgrading to v.01.00.05 and it still doesn't appear to work correctly.

I just give the DSO a 100kHz sine wave and switch to 50ms/div. Serious aliasing going on with what appears to be a 10Hz sine wave displayed. But Anti-Aliasing ON/OFF changes nothing.

Edit: Here's a 10MHz sine wave at 10ms/div - looking like a 100Hz sine wave because of aliasing - Anti-Aliasing has no effect ON or OFF.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on June 06, 2013, 09:19:22 pm
I had a similar experience yesterday with a 10MHz sine on slow(ish) timebases. AA on/off seemed to make no difference.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 06, 2013, 09:26:54 pm
Ok, same here. Lacking a decent waveform generator, I'm limited to 20kHz. But on the 500ms time base the DSO shows a 0.5Hz sine wave. No change with or without AA. The wron waveform is shown down to the 20ms time base, with 10ms or lower the 20kHz are shown correctly.

XaS

Edit: Of course, selecting more than 7kPoints solves the problem for 20ms and some more above.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 06, 2013, 09:29:38 pm
Ok, thanks for the verifications. Into the bug list it goes - and I'll pass it along to Drieg.


Edit:

Edit: Of course, selecting more than 7kPoints solves the problem for 20ms and some more above.

Yes, that would be the standard way to solve the problem - increase the sample length in order to increase the sampling rate. But still, we have the special feature - it should work!  ;)


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on June 06, 2013, 10:25:16 pm
@EV: I think you were the one that originally posted about the Anti-Alias bug. Can you please confirm that Anti-Aliasing is working in the current FW with a 'before' and 'after' screen shot?

Sorry, I am not at home for a while.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on June 07, 2013, 06:51:25 am
OK, I got these pictures from home. There is clearly some efect, if antialiasing is on or off.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2013, 07:00:46 am
OK, I got these pictures from home. There is clearly some efect, if antialiasing is on or off.

I'm not sure what it has to do with anti-aliasing though.  ;)  In previous posts some of us have confirmed that it is not doing anything to stop aliasing.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ThomasB on June 07, 2013, 01:01:23 pm
successfully updated my DS2202 from FW version 00.00.01.00.02 to version 01.00.00.03. Many thanks to  marmad :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 07, 2013, 03:37:34 pm
In previous posts some of us have confirmed that it is not doing anything to stop aliasing.
To be fair, Rigol doesn't claim it will stop aliasing:

Quote from: User Manual
At slower sweep speed, the sample rate is reduced and a dedicated display algorithm is used to minimize the possibility of aliasing.
The displayed waveforms will be more susceptible to aliasing when this function is disabled.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2013, 03:48:49 pm
To be fair, Rigol doesn't claim it will stop aliasing:

Quote from: User Manual
At slower sweep speed, the sample rate is reduced and a dedicated display algorithm is used to minimize the possibility of aliasing.
The displayed waveforms will be more susceptible to aliasing when this function is disabled.
But it's not doing anything visible (except perhaps changing gradation), while mathematical techniques for anti-aliasing (http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/exp66.pdf) have been around for awhile. I think it's a bug (or an unimplemented feature - which they 'forgot' to remove from the manual).

Or if someone could post just ONE 'before/after' example of it actually 'minimizing' aliasing, I would be happy  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: feds27 on June 07, 2013, 03:50:19 pm
Long time reader/watcher, first time posting...

DS2072 Extend Options Trial Period

http://youtu.be/9QhsuKvB9U4 (http://youtu.be/9QhsuKvB9U4)

Notice the 100MHz and 200MHz bandwidth options at the bottom of the trial list.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2013, 03:54:16 pm
Notice the 100MHz and 200MHz bandwidth options at the bottom of the trial list.

Yes, this has been commented on quite a few times throughout this thread. Haven't you read all [000081] pages?  ;D  Seriously though, it's known Rigol has put plans in place to sell BW if they think it's worthwhile to do at some point.

And welcome, BTW! First time's always the hardest  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: feds27 on June 07, 2013, 03:58:27 pm
Notice the 100MHz and 200MHz bandwidth options at the bottom of the trial list.

Yes, this has been commented on quite a few times throughout this thread. Haven't you read all [000081] pages?  ;D

Ah.  I noticed it was just posted to YouTube four days ago.  When I did a search on the thread and forum nothing came up so I posted it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2013, 04:03:39 pm
Ah.  I noticed it was just posted to YouTube four days ago.  When I did a search on the thread and forum nothing came up so I posted it.
That's EEVBlog member studio25's video - and the thread where the video is posted (and which is investigating hacking the Rigol) is here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/). But thanks for posting here - I know it's sometimes impossible to find stuff on EEVBlog  - hell, I often can't find posts I made myself.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: feds27 on June 07, 2013, 04:19:00 pm
Ah.  I noticed it was just posted to YouTube four days ago.  When I did a search on the thread and forum nothing came up so I posted it.
That's EEVBlog member studio25's video - and the thread where the video is posted (and which is investigating hacking the Rigol) is here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/). But thanks for posting here - I know it's sometimes impossible to find stuff on EEVBlog  - hell, I often can't find posts I made myself.  ;D

Ah, that's perfect.  Thanks marmad.  Subscribed!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on June 07, 2013, 05:42:21 pm
Hello,

I try the rs232 decode on my DS2072. So far it works pretty good.
But it knows only little ascii symbols.
.,:;-_!"§$%&/()=? is unknown.

The DS2072 is a little analphabet

Here are the dates from my DS2072:
DS2A15050...
Software 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware 1.0.1.0.0
SPU   03.01.02
WPU  00.06.00
CCU   12.29.00
MCU   00.05

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2013, 05:45:55 pm
Hello,

I try the rs232 decode on my DS2072. So far it works pretty good.
But it knows only little ascii symbols.
.,:;-_!"§$%&/()=? is unknown.

The DS2072 is a little analphabet

Thanks, egonotto. Any chance you can save the RS-232 waveform with the undecoded symbols as a WFM file and get it to me? Or post it here as a .zip file?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on June 07, 2013, 06:16:10 pm
Hello marmad,

i generate the signal with Scanalogic-2 a little logic analyser. Therefore the pegel is no true RS232.

I use the script:
BAUD=9600
b1
UCHR=Hello world
UCHR=0123456789
UCHR=.,:;-_!"§$%&/()=?
UCHR=End of text

The hex on DS2072 are ok. So DS2072 can decode the signal well.
Only the ascii  presentation has gaps.

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2013, 06:51:38 pm
i generate the signal with Scanalogic-2 a little logic analyser. Therefore the pegel is no true RS232.

Thanks, egonotto. I was planning to test it on other versions of the FW - but I just remembered that Rigol changed the WFM format again in v.01.00.00.03 - so I can't load it.  :(  Sorry, but can you try saving it one more time as CSV instead?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on June 07, 2013, 07:16:13 pm
Hello marmad,

now the rs232_csv_max file

Best Regards
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 07, 2013, 07:21:10 pm
Hello marmad,

now the rs232_csv_max file

Best Regards

Thanks  :)  I'll let you know what I find out,
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neilhao on June 07, 2013, 10:29:11 pm
Hi guys,

I did a little about measuring EMI using DS2202, details can be found at https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/idea-about-measure-emi-using-oscilloscope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/idea-about-measure-emi-using-oscilloscope/)

I have a little question about the bandwidth of the FFT, it seems the BW of the DS2202 is far higher than 200Mhz?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 08, 2013, 09:50:21 am
Hello marmad,

now the rs232_csv_max file

Best Regards

@egonotto: I haven't been having any luck trying to create a usable new version of the RS232 WFM for FW post-v.01.00.05. So I would suggest you upgrade to v.01.00.00.03 (you can always downgrade back to v.01.00.05 if you want). Then test the RS232 again on the new FW - and also create a new version WFM file that we can pass along to Rigol if it still isn't decoding those characters.

If you don't have copies of FW v.01.00.00.03 and FW v.01.00.05, send me a PM (or email) with your email address, and I'll send them to you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 08, 2013, 04:10:01 pm
I try the rs232 decode on my DS2072. So far it works pretty good.
But it knows only little ascii symbols.
.,:;-_!"§$%&/()=? is unknown.
Added to the bugs/issues list (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684) - and passed along to Drieg/Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 08, 2013, 06:23:10 pm
Hi guys,

I did a little about measuring EMI using DS2202, details can be found at https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/idea-about-measure-emi-using-oscilloscope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/idea-about-measure-emi-using-oscilloscope/)

I have a little question about the bandwidth of the FFT, it seems the BW of the DS2202 is far higher than 200Mhz?

Here some FFT pictures from my 2072 ( 70 Mhz) at 100 , 300 and 500 Mhz,
it is correct to the bandwidth measurements, -10 db at 300 Mhz and -20 dB at 500 Mhz ( 2 div down )

In FFT it is all in dB and in this example 10 dB per div, which gives a total different view.

Edit: the input level knob of the DSO, has no influence on the dB range displayed, has only impact on the S/N and noise floor

Edit2: In later post you can find a graph of the differences of the Bandwidth of the 2072 nad 2202
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 08, 2013, 06:53:40 pm
Effects of using AUTO memory depth setting on DS2000s.

Two interesting things to note:

1) The AUTO setting is obviously meant to optimize the sample length to keep the sample rate as high as possible - but for some reason, Rigol decided to not use sample lengths beyond 14MPts. Perhaps because that's the standard maximum without the added option?

2) I wonder why at time bases < 500ns/div (which is where 14kPts @ 2GSa/s fills the display) the waveform update rate is not getting faster than when you just use the 14kPts setting? Obviously, the sample length is being decreased and the acquisition time is getting shorter - so the number of waveform's being captured should be higher than for a fixed 14kPt length - but it isn't.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=50504)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 08, 2013, 08:22:36 pm
I have had a Rigol DS2072 and I Got An Electric Shock from it.
I was using  a 2 wire extension cord without ground (earth).
 I found out when Rigol DS2072 is not grounded, there is 115 volt on  Chassis ground,
and independently  of the switch are On or Off.
If I switch Off the neutral wire, and Rigol DS2072 only get the phase, I got 230 volt on Chassis ground, and also on probe tip.
From Rigols user guide: Ground The Instrument. The instrument is grounded through the Protective Earth lead of the power cord. To avoid electric shock, it is essential to connect the earth terminal of power cord to the Protective Earth terminal before any inputs or output.
Of course it is best to ground the instrument; but I have many other electrical appliances that are not grounded and do not  do that. And I do not have ground (earth) in most of the rooms  in the house.
Is  Rigol DS2072 OK ??
Is it only my Rigol DS2072 that  is defective ?
How are other digital oscilloscopes ?
Do I have  to  change the house's electrical installation with ground  (earth)  ?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on June 08, 2013, 08:34:00 pm
And I do not have ground (earth) in most of the rooms  in the house.
Are you from Russia??
Your scope is probably OK, but provide it a proper ground.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 08, 2013, 08:53:17 pm
And I do not have ground (earth) in most of the rooms  in the house.
Are you from Russia??
Your scope is probably OK, but provide it a proper ground.
No, i am from Denmark. First in ca 1995 the installation off ground in all room in a house started.
All other instrument I have do not have that. and the do not have ground
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on June 08, 2013, 10:27:40 pm
So guys, I'm thinking about possibly getting a DS2072 someday - my question is what is the deal with the demo features?  It comes with all of them enabled for a period of time?  How long?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 08, 2013, 10:33:25 pm
I have had a Rigol DS2072 and I Got An Electric Shock from it.
I was using  a 2 wire extension cord without ground (earth).
 I found out when Rigol DS2072 is not grounded, there is 115 volt on  Chassis ground,
and independently  of the switch are On or Off.
Is it only my Rigol DS2072 that  is defective ?
How are other digital oscilloscopes ?
Do I have  to  change the house's electrical installation with ground  (earth)  ?
Other oscilloscopes are the same (except for specially-built ones with isolation - I have a Tektronix battery-operated analog scope that is double-insulated). What you were doing is dangerous - and there is lots of information about it online (http://www.cbtricks.com/miscellaneous/tech_publications/scope/floating.pdf); the DSO MUST be grounded.

Dave even made a video (http://www.eevblog.com/2012/05/18/eevblog-279-how-not-to-blow-up-your-oscilloscope/) which talks about the fact that the DSO chassis (and all BNC connectors) are shorted to Earth ground (and how to avoid accidents when probing).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 08, 2013, 10:37:24 pm
So guys, I'm thinking about possibly getting a DS2072 someday - my question is what is the deal with the demo features?  It comes with all of them enabled for a period of time?  How long?

Yes - 36 hours of ON time - although they're reasonably easy to just keep restarting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on June 08, 2013, 11:01:41 pm
Same as on my DSOX2002A and my father's DSOX3000 at his company. It's probably not a bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on June 08, 2013, 11:09:02 pm
Hello Hydrawerk,

if you anser at my posting that I erase.
If the trigger level is AC coupled I now understand a trigger level line makes no sense. So I erase my post.

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on June 09, 2013, 12:43:18 am
Well, I am not sure, someone told me that the trigger indicator is always visible on TDS2000 scopes...  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 09, 2013, 05:32:46 am
Same as on my DSOX2002A and my father's DSOX3000 at his company. It's probably not a bug.
Thank you for testing. But it just tell that all Rigol oscilloscopes, is real bad isolated from main power(230V).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 09, 2013, 05:36:31 am
I have had a Rigol DS2072 and I Got An Electric Shock from it.
I was using  a 2 wire extension cord without ground (earth).
 I found out when Rigol DS2072 is not grounded, there is 115 volt on  Chassis ground,
and independently  of the switch are On or Off.
Is it only my Rigol DS2072 that  is defective ?
How are other digital oscilloscopes ?
Do I have  to  change the house's electrical installation with ground  (earth)  ?
Other oscilloscopes are the same (except for specially-built ones with isolation - I have a Tektronix battery-operated analog scope that is double-insulated). What you were doing is dangerous - and there is lots of information about it online (http://www.cbtricks.com/miscellaneous/tech_publications/scope/floating.pdf); the DSO MUST be grounded.

Dave even made a video (http://www.eevblog.com/2012/05/18/eevblog-279-how-not-to-blow-up-your-oscilloscope/) which talks about the fact that the DSO chassis (and all BNC connectors) are shorted to Earth ground (and how to avoid accidents when probing).
Dave's  video  is about measurement and connection to other  electrical appliances, and what can  happen.
When Rigol DS2072 is not grounded, it have 115 Volt  (or 230 Volt) on chassis and also on probe tip.
Completely without being connected to other equipment.
All my old analog oscilloscopes I have had, do not have 230 V out on  Chassis ground, and also on probe tip. And all other  electrical instruments I have do not have it.
Rigol DS2072 must be bad isolated from main power(230V).
Are other digital oscilloscope brands also poorly insulated ?
Of course, it is best to ground.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on June 09, 2013, 06:52:12 am
Dave's  video  is about measurement and connection to other  electrical appliances, and what can  happen.
When Rigol DS2072 is not grounded, it have 115 Volt  (or 230 Volt) on chassis and also on probe tip.
Completely without being connected to other equipment.
All my old analog oscilloscopes I have had, do not have 230 V out on  Chassis ground, and also on probe tip. And all other  electrical instruments I have do not have it.
Rigol DS2072 must be bad isolated from main power(230V).
Are other digital oscilloscope brands also poorly insulated ?
Of course, it is best to ground.

So I just did a few checks.  From measureing the mains input socket with an LCR meter, there's a common mode filter with 4.7nf caps between N-G and A-G.  There's no blead resistance across the caps and ground (I am not saying there should be.)

So under controlled conditions I removed a ground, powered it up, and got what you described.  This is as to be expected, the 4.7nf caps are forming a voltage divider to earth at the input CM filter, and so earth is now half way  between neutral and active potentials.  In Oz, with a 240V active and neutral at close enough to ground, this gives ~ 120VACrms on the jacks.

Shorting this to ground gives a current of 338uArms, which if you work out 1/(2*pi*f*C) on 4.7nf, and divide 240Vrms by it, you’ll get exactly that.

It’s got nothing at all to do with insulation, it’s designed that way to remove mains line noise (and vice versa.)  So just operate it with a ground and you’ll be fine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on June 09, 2013, 07:08:07 am
To answer the second part of your question, is it common?  Yes, very.  It's needed to meet EMI/EMC compliance when you've got a switching power supply.

Attached is a photo of the IEC input socket on a high end computer power supply I happen to have in pieces.  You can also see here they've done exactly the same thing.  If I connected this PC without a ground, I'd have 120Vrms on the PC case.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 09, 2013, 09:02:50 am
Dave's  video  is about measurement and connection to other  electrical appliances, and what can  happen.
When Rigol DS2072 is not grounded, it have 115 Volt  (or 230 Volt) on chassis and also on probe tip.
Completely without being connected to other equipment.
All my old analog oscilloscopes I have had, do not have 230 V out on  Chassis ground, and also on probe tip. And all other  electrical instruments I have do not have it.
Rigol DS2072 must be bad isolated from main power(230V).
Are other digital oscilloscope brands also poorly insulated ?
Of course, it is best to ground.

So I just did a few checks.  From measureing the mains input socket with an LCR meter, there's a common mode filter with 4.7nf caps between N-G and A-G.  There's no blead resistance across the caps and ground (I am not saying there should be.)

So under controlled conditions I removed a ground, powered it up, and got what you described.  This is as to be expected, the 4.7nf caps are forming a voltage divider to earth at the input CM filter, and so earth is now half way  between neutral and active potentials.  In Oz, with a 240V active and neutral at close enough to ground, this gives ~ 120VACrms on the jacks.

Shorting this to ground gives a current of 338uArms, which if you work out 1/(2*pi*f*C) on 4.7nf, and divide 240Vrms by it, you’ll get exactly that.

It’s got nothing at all to do with insulation, it’s designed that way to remove mains line noise (and vice versa.)  So just operate it with a ground and you’ll be fine.

Thank you for testing and your explanation  , Harvs, You are right !
I thought it was the special oscilloscope,
but it is then the switching power supply fault.
So it does not help to buy a second oscilloscope.
I returned the Rigol DS2072, maybe I should buy it again.
It seems to be a good oscilloscope.
Once again, thanks for the help!

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 09, 2013, 09:10:52 am
When Rigol DS2072 is not grounded, it have 115 Volt  (or 230 Volt) on chassis and also on probe tip.
Completely without being connected to other equipment.
All my old analog oscilloscopes I have had, do not have 230 V out on  Chassis ground, and also on probe tip. And all other  electrical instruments I have do not have it.

Do the other instruments have:
"WARNING: MAINTAIN GROUND TO AVOID ELECTRIC SHOCK"
engraved in large letters on them?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on June 09, 2013, 09:13:18 am
I returned the Rigol DS2072, maybe I should buy it again.
:palm: I hope it didn't cost you anything to return it!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 09, 2013, 10:35:10 am
When Rigol DS2072 is not grounded, it have 115 Volt  (or 230 Volt) on chassis and also on probe tip.
Completely without being connected to other equipment.
All my old analog oscilloscopes I have had, do not have 230 V out on  Chassis ground, and also on probe tip. And all other  electrical instruments I have do not have it.

Do the other instruments have:
"WARNING: MAINTAIN GROUND TO AVOID ELECTRIC SHOCK"
engraved in large letters on them?

My old oscilloscope (Hitachi V-525) have it engraved, and I've never had it grounded.
And it's never been 115 or 230 V on its chassis.
Grounding was in the past for extra protection.
Now, it is obviously necessary.
As I have said before, in Denmark we were first grounding in new houses about 1995 (in wet room before). I would have been happy for a digital oscilloscope, who absolutely not have to be grounded.
Now Harvs come with the explanation why it does so.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 09, 2013, 10:47:18 am
Grounding was in the past for extra protection.
Now, it is obviously necessary.
As I have said before, in Denmark we were first grounding in new houses about 1995 (in wet room before). I would have been happy for a digital oscilloscope, who absolutely not have to be grounded.

Regardless of wiring in Danish houses, any electronics operated from switching power supplies need to be grounded - and always have. I noticed back in 1988 when I ran my PC without a ground connection that there was 110-120V potential on the metal case.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 09, 2013, 10:49:16 am
I returned the Rigol DS2072, maybe I should buy it again.
:palm: I hope it didn't cost you anything to return it!

It cost me the postage. It was within the rights of return
But it's ok, except if it had been a defect on Rigol oscillosscope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 09, 2013, 11:01:17 am
Grounding was in the past for extra protection.
Now, it is obviously necessary.
As I have said before, in Denmark we were first grounding in new houses about 1995 (in wet room before). I would have been happy for a digital oscilloscope, who absolutely not have to be grounded.

Regardless of wiring in Danish houses, any electronics operated from switching power supplies need to be grounded - and always have. I noticed back in 1988 when I ran my PC without a ground connection that there was 110-120V potential on the metal case.

You are right.
I did not realize it with switching power supplies.
And coincidentally, I have had my PC grounded, but it was for another reason (I thought). At the time I pulled the ground cord from the wet room to my hobby room.
Now I can use the ground wire to a new oscilloscope  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 09, 2013, 11:27:13 am
I thought the display is cleared after each trace in normal mode ?  ???

No, a DPO scope with intensity grading has what you could call a 'Z-buffer' (for lack of a common term) which combines all acquired waveforms. If you have multiple triggers happening within a given time frame (you were set to AUTO MemDepth @ 100ns - which means up to 16,790 triggers per second), they will appear simultaneously on the display with the minimum 'decay' time (or longer - if you have persistence set higher) - and WAITing for a trigger freezes the decay. This is actually advantageous - and helps spot multiple triggers and glitches.

BTW, here's an interesting document on different techniques used for intensity grading (http://www.hit.bme.hu/~papay/edu/DSOdisp/gradient.htm) (courtesy of tinhead).  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 09, 2013, 11:36:28 am
they will appear simultaneously on the display with a minimum decay time (or longer - if you have persistence set higher) - and WAITING for a trigger freezes the 'decay'. You were set to AUTO MemDepth @ 100ns - which means up to 16,790 waveforms per second.  This is actually advantageous - and helps spot multiple triggers and glitches.
aaaaah Yes,  Thanks Marmad,
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bambam on June 09, 2013, 05:36:43 pm
Hi all newbie here to the forum.

I hope its ok posting this here so late in the thread but, i just wanted to share my appreciation towards marmad for his help with upgrading my ds2072 firmware. he is super guy and its thanks to his brilliant video review and this thread i purchased the scope.

The ds2072 is my first ever scope and so far found it so easy to use and its made electronics hobby so much more enjoyable.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 09, 2013, 05:58:58 pm

@Marmad, Waveform update rate..

When on 20 nSec timebase:
and input of a signal of 10 Mhz i get 41.000 WFM/sec
but when change input to 60 Mhz it drops to 22.000 WFM/sec

On 1uS timbase:
and input of 1 Mhz, i get 2.900 WFM/s
but with 10 Mhz it drops to 1.900 WFM/s

On 20 nSec timebase:
and 1 Mhz i get 46.000 WFM/s but change timebase to fine and 20.05 nSec it drops to 5.000 WFM/s

How does that fit in your explanation video about WFM/s, i dont get it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 09, 2013, 06:37:39 pm
When on 20 nSec timebase:
and input of a signal of 10 Mhz i get 41.000 WFM/sec
but when change input to 60 Mhz it drops to 22.000 WFM/sec

On 1uS timbase:
and input of 1 Mhz, i get 2.900 WFM/s
but with 10 Mhz it drops to 1.900 WFM/s

On 20 nSec timebase:
and 1 Mhz i get 46.000 WFM/s but change timebase to fine and 20.05 nSec it drops to 5.000 WFM/s

How does that fit in your explanation video about WFM/s, i dont get it.

Well, since the waveform update rate is comprised of three distinct sections (i.e. acquisition time + fixed blind time + variable blind time), the rate could be affected by anything you do - depending on how the DSO manufacturer implements things - because they could affect the variable blind time. It's clear the DS2000 was finely tuned to be able to achieve ~50k wfrm/s in order to directly market it against the Agilent 2000X, but it only achieves that rate under very precise conditions.

I've noticed myself when testing that the wfrm/s rate can change depending on the input frequency - perhaps due to the way that the trigger circuitry is being processed (i.e. excess triggers cause a slight interruption in the process - even if they don't trigger another acquisition). But this might be common in DSOs - I've never tested it. Mostly when you see charts of wfrm/s speeds, they are specified against a particular input frequency.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 09, 2013, 08:36:22 pm
Or if someone could post just ONE 'before/after' example of it actually 'minimizing' aliasing, I would be happy  :)
This seemed like it might be interesting to play with, so I fed the DSO various frequencies and looked for an example where AA looked better.

The first thing I discovered is that Anti-Aliasing and High Res don't get along.  The difference is super obvious in dots.  In my tests, AA always made aliasing worse in High Res. I suspect Averaging, which was on in Xas' post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg242826/#msg242826) is susceptible to the same problem.

I've only seen AA produce an improvement in cases where the scope was displaying low intensity.  So if you have dim traces, or a dim swath, turning on AA may add detail.  In the first normal acquisition images, you see that the vertical portions of the traces got more intense and easier to follow with the eye.  But this isn't a typical aliasing case of undersampling the waveform.  I don't know why the trace was so dim to start with.  Even at 185us with exactly 4 periods displayed, the wave (in dots) was still pretty dim and wide.  At 100us, it looks correct, and with AA turned on in 185us, it looks correct.  Is this another kind of aliasing?

The last two images were the only ones I came up with where it looked like AA actually reduced acquisition aliasing.  That's a 15.555555MHz signal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 09, 2013, 08:49:30 pm
I've only seen AA produce an improvement in cases where the scope was displaying low intensity.  So if you have dim traces, or a dim swath, turning on AA may add detail.  In the first normal acquisition images, you see that the vertical portions of the traces got more intense and easier to follow with the eye.  But this isn't a typical aliasing case of undersampling the waveform.  I don't know why the trace was so dim to start with.  Even at 185us with exactly 4 periods displayed, the wave (in dots) was still pretty dim and wide.  At 100us, it looks correct, and with AA turned on in 185us, it looks correct.  Is this another kind of aliasing?

The last two images were the only ones I came up with where it looked like AA actually reduced acquisition aliasing.  That's a 15.555555MHz signal.

Thanks for your efforts, GR. With all I've seen, I'm almost of the belief that someone at Rigol told a programmer that they wanted a routine for anti-aliasing - and the coder thought they meant image anti-aliasing - not waveform anti-aliasing.  ;D

Seriously though, if you want to do any more playing around, I would strongly suggest that you don't use 14M or 56M sample lengths - since traditionally, one of the tools to battle against aliasing is to increase sample length (since that automatically increases sample rates and/or samples being decimated for the display). If anti-aliasing works at all on the Rigol, it should first and foremost be working when you have small sample lengths - so that switching it on might (in the background) automatically force the DSO to capture more samples for random decimation (or change sample speeds) in order to prevent the occurrence of the aliased waveform.
Title: Demo Boards - Any favorites: makes/models/sources?
Post by: Electro Fan on June 10, 2013, 12:13:58 am
I'm not sure if the DS6000 Demo Board has been mentioned before on EEVBlog or not (a quick search didn't turn up anything), but I found it at Batronix while searching for any possible new UltraVision products - and I hadn't seen it before and thought it was kind of interesting. It lists at €163 / $225 (excl.), and I've attached the user guide below.

"This Demo board is used to illustrate the basic functions of the oscilloscope. It is powered through USB port and can output 25 kinds of signals for the illustration of oscilloscope functions, i.e. sine, video (PAL/NTSC), AM Modulation, Sweeps, many digital signals and lots more. Delivery including Demo Board, USB Cable, CD with manual."

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44584)

It's got the Instek one beat - Instek demo board only does 10 analog and 5 digital/LA functions for $205 list (so probably about $185 discounted).

I might have to get me one of these to play around with.

Hi Greg,

Just checking to see if you might have sprung for one of these demo boards (and where you think one could be purchased for $185?)

- anyone else have any demo boards you like better (new or used)?

Also, any updates on the GWI Logic Analyzer impressions? :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: David_AVD on June 10, 2013, 12:32:12 am
Those test point "hoops" on that demo board look neat.  Has anyone seen those for sale?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 10, 2013, 12:55:08 am
Those test point "hoops" on that demo board look neat.  Has anyone seen those for sale?
Well, in the original post I made (which you can see in the quoted area above), I mentioned I found the device (and images) at Batronix(.com) in Germany.

Here's the data sheet. (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/DS6000DemoBoard_UserGuide_EN.pdf)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: David_AVD on June 10, 2013, 01:01:14 am
Those test point "hoops" on that demo board look neat.  Has anyone seen those for sale?
Well, in the original post I made (which you can see in the quoted area above), I mentioned I found the device (and images) at Batronix(.com) in Germany.

Here's the data sheet. (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/UserGuide/DS6000DemoBoard_UserGuide_EN.pdf)

Thank you.   :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 10, 2013, 01:23:59 am
Seriously though, if you want to do any more playing around, I would strongly suggest that you don't use 14M or 56M sample lengths - since traditionally, one of the tools to battle against aliasing is to increase sample length (since that automatically increases sample rates and/or samples being decimated for the display). If anti-aliasing works at all on the Rigol, it should first and foremost be working when you have small sample lengths - so that switching it on might (in the background) automatically force the DSO to capture more samples for random decimation (or change sample speeds) in order to prevent the occurrence of the aliased waveform.
I didn't post pictures of the smaller memory depths because AA never did anything for them, not because I didn't try it.  But going back at it, I am able to get a very subtle change at 140k in some situations.  I experimented  with what happens to the sample dots themselves and could find no difference at any memory depth.

And that leads to the final nail in the coffin:  You can toggle AA while STOPped, and it does the same thing as toggling it while running.  So you're right, it's image improving, and not waveform improving. This is true for High Res, too!  Perhaps that explains why you never get 10-bit values out of the scope with RUU: it's entirely a display-time trick.

High Res troubles me in general.  For example, 1Vpp 66,666Hz sine wave at 10us/div, 200mV/div looks great in high res.  Now go to 1ms/div.  The signal shrinks to half amplitude!  Now turn on Anti-Aliasing for some real fun: it... aliases into a 8% amplitude, 5kHz wave.  Changing the vertical scale to 50mv and it halves the amplitude again!  Like I said, AA and High Res don't get along :) If I try to zoom all the way into the sample dots with high res active, I can't.  I always get a line.

AA does make some of my captures prettier, enhances certain glitches, and hasn't (yet) hidden any transients in my testing tonight.  The biggest drawback seems to be the wfm/s hit (which varies considerably based on the time base and memory depth.)
Title: Rigol 2000 vs 4000, decoding option prices and other differences
Post by: Electro Fan on June 10, 2013, 03:36:35 am
Sorry for being off topic on the current thread conversations, but since this seems to be Rigol 2000 Central is it correct that the I2C and SPI decoding option for the 2000 series (which also includes the RS232 decoder) is about $220 vs on the 4000 series you need to purchase the I2C and SPI decoding options separately for about $500 each ($1k total)?   Thanks

PS, decoder pricing aside, I've tried to stay up to speed with this 80 pager on the 2000 and other Rigol threads, but if anyone can post/paste links to anything that nets out the differences between the Rigol 2000 and 4000 series that would be great - Thx again
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on June 10, 2013, 04:49:30 am
http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2202.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2202.html)
Click accessories!

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS4022.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS4022.html)
Click accessories!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on June 10, 2013, 05:59:13 am
http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2202.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2202.html)
Click accessories!

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS4022.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS4022.html)
Click accessories!

The prices in your links look better than the ones shown here:

http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-I2C-DS4.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-I2C-DS4.html)

http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-SPI-DS4.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-SPI-DS4.html)
At Batronix it seems like the I2C and SPI decodes are packaged together for the DS4000, but at TEquipment they are packaged seperately ?

It seems there are two "issues":  1) the pricing on the 2000 accessories are less than the 4000 accessories (seems to be an industry standard trend followed by various manufacturers) and 2) for some reason in the U.S. the accessories are bundled differently which raises the pricing.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ncross on June 11, 2013, 02:04:03 am
Thanks to everyone for the plethora of good information, bugs, comparisons, quirks... It makes purchasing one of these a much more transparent process.  Especially to a noob like me considering a first scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 11, 2013, 02:09:31 am
Thanks to everyone for the plethora of good information, bugs, comparisons, quirks... It makes purchasing one of these a much more transparent process.  Especially to a noob like me considering a first scope.

Welcome aboard.  Several noob's in your company.  I pulled the trigger on a DS2072 but still waiting for shipping in US.

--Van
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on June 11, 2013, 02:27:12 pm
Looking to buy a 2072 either today or tomorrow. Looks like it still is a very good option!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Leon on June 11, 2013, 05:45:48 pm
I've ordered a 2102, it should arrive pretty soon.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: devitrify on June 13, 2013, 12:42:07 am
I recently received our DS2102 scope -- it's my first digital scope, and it's a huge step forward over my old circa 1980 HP!

We plan to use it for our high school robotics team.  I hope to use the decoding functions for our CAN bus, and I am pleased to see some great demos of this capability already posted.

I've run into a few bugs, and have contacted Rigol who says they are known but that there is no firmware update released yet.  You can see in the attached image, a bug where all the test data is wrongly shown as identical.

My DS2102 scope shipped in May 2013 with:
   Firmware:00.01.00.00.03
as reported in the file NewFile1.txt that I downloaded onto a USB flashdrive.

Though maybe not a bug, I noted that when I download a waveform onto a USB drive, the resolution is reduced below that displayed on the scope.  For example, at 2 V/div, the resolution in the downloaded file is 0.080V.  For a full screen deflection of 16V (= 8 x 2V/div ), the # of steps is 200  ( =16V / 0.080V).  I'll have to explore more to see if it is possible to download at higher resolutions.

In spite of the bugs, my first impressions of this scope are very positive!

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on June 13, 2013, 01:02:16 am
Those Rigols are feature rich, they have good hardware, but because of those bugs
 :palm: :palm: I would never trust this scope.   :-- Anyway, when they finally make a good firmware without bugs, it will be a good scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 01:14:15 am
I've run into a few bugs, and have contacted Rigol who says they are known but that there is no firmware update released yet.  You can see in the attached image, a bug where all the test data is wrongly shown as identical.
This bug was just introduced in the last version of the FW - and has already been fixed in the upcoming version. It is in our bug list on the opening page (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684):
Re-selecting two or more measurements from the left-side menu after booting-up can cause some of the measurements to be incorrect.
Current workarounds include:
Only select one measurement for screen bottom
or - use 'Display All' (with 0 or only 1 measurement at screen bottom)
or - make sure System -> Startup is set to 'Last', then select the measurements you want at screen bottom and reboot.

Quote
Though maybe not a bug, I noted that when I download a waveform onto a USB drive, the resolution is reduced below that displayed on the scope.  For example, at 2 V/div, the resolution in the downloaded file is 0.080V.  For a full screen deflection of 16V (= 8 x 2V/div ), the # of steps is 200  ( =16V / 0.080V).  I'll have to explore more to see if it is possible to download at higher resolutions.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean? What file format are you talking about? WFM? CSV? TRC?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 01:21:20 am
Those Rigols are feature rich, they have good hardware, but because of those bugs
 :palm: :palm: I would never trust this scope.   :-- Anyway, when they finally make a good firmware without bugs, it will be a good scope.

I'm not sure what benefit you think these kinds of comments are bringing to this thread, but in any case you're wrong. There are very few bugs in the FW (and certainly nothing serious) - it's completely trustworthy - haven't you noticed that Dave uses it all the time in his videos? And the DS2000 is unquestionably both a more powerful DSO, and a much better deal, than the Agilent DSOX2000.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on June 13, 2013, 01:58:51 am
I hope to use the decoding functions for our CAN bus, and I am pleased to see some great demos of this capability already posted.

How do you plan on doing that?  As far as I know the CAN bus decoder is only available for the DS6000 scopes (and costs almost as much as a DS2072!)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: devitrify on June 13, 2013, 04:29:55 am
I hope to use the decoding functions for our CAN bus, and I am pleased to see some great demos of this capability already posted.
How do you plan on doing that?  As far as I know the CAN bus decoder is only available for the DS6000 scopes (and costs almost as much as a DS2072!)

Harvs, thanks for bringing to my attention my error regarding the CAN bus decoder.  I've been viewing too many videos on Rigol scopes and didn't connect that the CAN bus decoding wasn't available on the DS2102.  I guess I'll only be able to decode the I2C, which we haven't used on our robots as often.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: devitrify on June 13, 2013, 05:08:50 am
This bug was just introduced in the last version of the FW - and has already been fixed in the upcoming version. It is in our bug list on the opening page (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684):
Marmed,
I am happy to hear that the bug where data is duplicated in measurements is recent.  Although I had seen it in your post, I thought it worth mentioning because I encountered it quickly when trying out the scope, and so it was one of my "First Impressions" -- the subject of this thread.  I also thought it was a long standing uncorrected bug, so I'm glad to hear I am wrong on that.
Though maybe not a bug, I noted that when I download a waveform onto a USB drive, the resolution is reduced below that displayed on the scope.  For example, at 2 V/div, the resolution in the downloaded file is 0.080V.  For a full screen deflection of 16V (= 8 x 2V/div ), the # of steps is 200  ( =16V / 0.080V).  I'll have to explore more to see if it is possible to download at higher resolutions.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean? What file format are you talking about? WFM? CSV? TRC?

The file format is CSV.
Here is an excerpt after importing the CSV file into MS Excel and changing the number format from scientific to fixed point for readability:
X   CH1   CH2
Sequence   Volt   Volt
0   2.879   0.720
1   3.039   0.560
2   2.879   0.720
3   3.039   0.560
4   2.960   0.560
5   2.799   0.720
6   2.879   0.640
7   2.799   0.560
8   2.879   0.640
9   2.799   0.480


The waveforms were recorded at 2V/div.  The minimum increment is 0.080V. When I plot this data in excel, I find the resulting data is heavily quantized, when compared to the original data that was displayed on the scope.  I've attached the .BMP and .CSV files for comparison; (change .txt to .csv).  I probably don't have an option for downloading to a file set correctly -- I have only a few hours experience with the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on June 13, 2013, 07:57:37 am
deleted - double posting -
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on June 13, 2013, 09:19:44 am
Maybe Rigol will offer CAN decoding on the DS2000 later?
I don't think so. Probably the main firmware set is the same through all DS 2xxx/4xxx/6xxx series and they just enable/disable features (and changes regarding different hardware). By this the firmware development costs are shared through all scope lines and maintaining is much easier.
As of marketing reasons they need to differentiate the misc. scope lines. The more expensive series will get more features then. If they would just enable all possible features in a DS2xxx series scope (e.g. allow 350 Mhz, allow CAN etc. which would not cost them anything but some time for testing), very few people would buy a DS4xxx or DS6xxx series scope. By this they would loose a lot of money.

So, either 'somebody' find out how to enable this in the firmware (if the full code is there) or we will never see it - Rigol will definately not do this. And ... I am pretty sure Rigol people are reading this forum too, so they will (unfortunately) find a way to prevent this.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on June 13, 2013, 02:50:53 pm
blank post - trying to start a new page to overcome the problem with the 'crashed / hung up thread'
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on June 13, 2013, 02:51:43 pm
blank post - trying to start a new page to overcome the problem with the 'crashed / hung up thread'
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on June 13, 2013, 02:53:58 pm
OK, I do not know what happend, the page 85 was hanging for a few hours after my last post there. I did nothing special, just writing some text.
I now had the idea to add a few blank postings to move the thread to a new page. It seems this worked and the thread it is back to normal again - just one real entry from me is missing and this one was not important. So, end of page 85 is missing and hanging.

Peter

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on June 13, 2013, 03:51:31 pm
Still appears broken to me - I can only see posts after the attached when I'm in the reply editor, where the new posts appear below the edit box.
 
In case it helps, right now in normal view I can see through "Reply #1270" (attached).  In edit view I can see though the following post:
 
OK, I do not know what happend, the page 85 was hanging for a few hours after my last post there. I did nothing special, just writing some text.
I now had the idea to add a few blank postings to move the thread to a new page. It seems this worked and the thread it is back to normal again - just one real entry from me is missing and this one was not important. So, end of page 85 is missing and hanging.

Peter
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 04:01:34 pm
Still appears broken to me - I can only see posts after the attached when I'm in the reply editor, where the new posts appear below the edit box.
 
In case it helps, right now in normal view I can see through "Reply #1270" (attached).  In edit view I can see though the following post:

I just posted about this in the Supporter's Lounge where it might get more immediate attention from Dave/the staff.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: devitrify on June 13, 2013, 04:19:46 pm
I think page 85 broke when I as posting a response to Marmad.  I had trouble uploading a 1.5MB .BMP file, attached to my response, where the page (#85) would timeout when I posted.  I tried 2 or three times, and succeeded with the post only after I removed my attachment. I then went back to modify the post to re-add the attachment, and that's when page 85 started behaving badly. My post exists, attached to my username devitrify, but it doesn't appear on page 85.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 04:32:58 pm
I think page 85 broke when I as posting a response to Marmad.  I had trouble uploading a 1.5MB .BMP file, attached to my response, where the page (#85) would timeout when I posted.  I tried 2 or three times, and succeeded with the post only after I removed my attachment. I then went back to modify the post to re-add the attachment, and that's when page 85 started behaving badly. My post exists, attached to my username devitrify, but it doesn't appear on page 85.

@devitrify: I just read your 'vanished' post (and your original post again). Obviously the Rigol, like all other low-cost DSOs, uses an 8-bit ADC, meaning that you would never get more than 256 discrete levels maximum. The Rigol does another trick (I'm not sure why, but I think partially for speed - and partially because of the 500uV/div setting) in which it only maps 200 (of the 256 possible) to the 400 pixel height of the display (25 levels = 50 pixels = 1 division ), effectively causing ~10% of the possible vertical resolution to fall offscreen, top and bottom. If you want to get as much vertical resolution as possible in your saved waveforms, you should adjust the display so the it overlaps the top and bottom by ~10% (one division).

Edit: If you download my software, RUU (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575), it will display 10 divisions (if you check 'Full ADC') so that you can adjust the vertical scale precisely on the Rigol to match the (almost) maximum resolution (250 out of 256).

Here's an image saved of a full 10-division sine wave:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=51283)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 04:59:17 pm
@devitrify: BTW, one other point worth mentioning (which you may or may not be aware of): the DSO is doing sin(x)/x (or linear) interpolation for the display - constructing new data points within the range of the captured sample points; i.e. filling in-between the 'blanks'.  It does not do this normally when you save the waveform - you only get the actual sample points, not the interpolated points - unless you save the display memory, as opposed to the sample memory.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on June 13, 2013, 05:59:09 pm
The Rigol does another trick (I'm not sure why, but I think partially for speed - and partially because of the 500uV/div setting) in which it only maps 200 (of the 255 possible bits) to the 400 pixel height of the display, effectively causing ~10% of the possible vertical resolution to fall offscreen, top and bottom. If you want to get as much vertical resolution as possible in your saved waveforms, you should adjust the display so the it overlaps the top and bottom by ~10% (one division).

other manufacturers doing this as well, 10.24DIV for full scale, so each DIV represents 25 of 255 values.
Sure, they could use as well 8DIV each 32 of 255 values, but then the waveform would clip at the edge of the
screen, this didn't look good. It have as well something with display resolution vs amount of steps per DIV,
so yes, you right, it does speed up the calculation (display engine).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: devitrify on June 13, 2013, 07:17:52 pm
@devitrify: I just read your 'vanished' post (and your original post again). Obviously the Rigol, like all other low-cost DSOs, uses an 8-bit ADC, meaning that you would never get more than 256 discrete levels maximum.
Marmad, Rigol claims 12 bits of resolution for the DS2000 series in their posted specs at:  http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/)
but I understand you to say that these additional 4 bits are interpolated from the actual 8-bit measurement.

I am disappointed. I wish that manufacturers would simply state the resolution of their ADCs and separately indicate the means with which they achieve any additional resolution, much like optical vs digital zoom on cameras.

Marmad, I look forward trying out your RUU software.  I've heard good things about RUU while exploring the info on these Rigol scopes.


Edited:  OK, after posting above, I read the specs at Rigol more carefully...
From the specs:
Sample mode
    High Resolution: 12 Bits of resolution when...
Vertical
    Vertical Resolution: 8bit


I just don't know what "Sample Mode" means, and how it differs from the vertical resolution.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 07:43:16 pm
Marmad, Rigol claims 12 bits of resolution for the DS2000 series in their posted specs at:  http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/)
but I understand you to say that these additional 4 bits are interpolated from the actual 8-bit measurement.

I am disappointed. I wish that manufacturers would simply state the resolution of their ADCs and separately indicate the means with which they achieve any additional resolution, much like optical vs digital zoom on cameras.

As far as I've been able to tell, Rigol has always been quite honest about their specifications (although sometimes you need to dig a little), unlike other brands I can think of. The High-Res mode is a commonly used 'trick' among manufacturers at the moment to 'simulate' 12-bit resolution with sample-averaging (perhaps started in lower-cost models by Agilent and their X-Series). But the DS2000 User Manual clearly states:

High Resolution
This mode uses a kind of ultra-sample technique to average the neighboring points of the sample waveform to reduce the random noise on the input signal and generate much smoother waveforms on the screen. This is generally used when the sample rate of the digital converter is higher than the storage rate of the acquisition memory. Note: “Average” and “High Res” modes use different averaging methods. The former uses “Waveform Average” and the latter uses “Dot Average”.

Again, this is something being done ON sample memory in it's transformation to display memory (and the screen). You won't be able to save this except as the 1400 bytes of display memory.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 08:04:21 pm
Some cut & paste info about the technique:

High-resolution mode

The second method of averaging in the digitising oscilloscope that does not require a repetitive signal is high-resolution mode.

These types of oscilloscope provide 8-bit vertical resolution in normal acquisition mode, like most other digitising oscilloscopes. However, high-resolution mode on the oscilloscope offers up to 12 bits of vertical resolution in real-time mode, which reduces noise and increases vertical resolution.

Instead of averaging points from multiple acquisitions in a single time bucket like normal averaging mode, high-resolution mode averages sequential points within the same acquisition together.

In high-resolution mode you cannot directly control the number of averages as you can in averaging mode. Instead, the number of extra bits of vertical resolution is dependent on the time/division setting of the scope.

When operating at slow time base ranges, the oscilloscope serially filters sequential data points and maps the filtered results to the display. Increasing the memory depth of on-screen data increases the number of points averaged together.

High-resolution mode has no effect at fast time/div settings, where the number of on-screen points captured is small. It has a large effect at slow time/div settings, where the number of on-screen points captured is large.
 
How to achieve 12 bits of resolution

For the oscilloscope in high-resolution mode, vertical resolution varies as the time base changes as below (at 1Gsample/s sample rate).

Time base   Bits of resolution
<10ns/div          8
50ns/div            9
200ns/div         10
1µs/div             11
> or =5µs/div   12
 
To get up to 12 bits of resolution in high-resolution mode, the oscilloscope averages together at least 16 consecutive samples.

Therefore, to achieve 12 bits of resolution, we add 16 consecutive samples together, then divide the total by 16. This process is commonly referred to as decimation. This results in 12 bits of useful data. Notice that these are bits of resolution, not accuracy.

The effectiveness of high-resolution mode depends on the characteristics of the dominant noise sources, which come internally from the oscilloscope or from external circuits measured by the oscilloscope.

In other words, you only get more “resolution” in the presence of white noise. You may not be able to get more resolution for averaging noise-free samples.

Most A/D converters used in digitising oscilloscopes are 8-bit converters, with 8-bit differential non-linearity (DNL) and 8-bit integral non-linearity (INL). DNL error is defined as the difference between an actual step width, and the ideal value of 1LSB (least significant bit).

The INL error is described as the deviation, in LSB or percent of full-scale range (FSR), of an actual transfer function from a straight line. High-resolution acquisition on a noisy signal will tend to improve DNL characteristics, but not INL. The scope probes and pre-amplifier in the front-end of the oscilloscope are calibrated to a few per cent of accuracy, so those are the dominant component needed to improve the integral non-linearity accuracy.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 13, 2013, 08:05:34 pm
High Resolution
Again, this is something being done ON sample memory in it's transformation to display memory (and the screen). You won't be able to save this except as the 1400 bytes of display memory.

EDIT: Actually, perhaps I'm wrong about this and the results of the averaging end up in sample memory - I haven't tested saving High-Res mode so I'm not sure. But in any case, it will be as 8-bit data, not 12-bit.
  Average is over frames
I found this video a good explaination of sampling, averaging, and High resolution
Agilent Infiniium 9000 Series vs LeCroy HRO 6Zi Series oscilloscopes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j9-0jKP_O0#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 08:07:56 pm
  Average is over frames

Normal Average is of waveforms.
High Resolution Average is of sample points.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 08:25:27 pm
(http://www.daysalive.com/share/acq_modes.PNG)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: devitrify on June 13, 2013, 09:38:04 pm
Marmad and Teneyes

From both of your posts, I have a much better idea of what is going on now .  The Agilent video was especially helpful to me in clearly showing the difference between the basic methods of "averaging" samples and "high resolution mode", and I understand most of your discussion and supporting docs.

Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 13, 2013, 10:18:01 pm
(Again, this is something being done ON sample memory in it's transformation to display memory (and the screen). You won't be able to save this except as the 1400 bytes of display memory.) = I'm not sure about this, as explained by my edit below.
It matches my experiences outlined earlier in this thread. The scope retains the original 8-bit values in sample memory and can switch between high-res and normal without acquiring a new waveform.  Anti-Alias also seems to be done during transformation from sample to display.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 13, 2013, 11:02:46 pm
It matches my experiences outlined earlier in this thread. The scope retains the original 8-bit values in sample memory and can switch between high-res and normal without acquiring a new waveform.  Anti-Alias also seems to be done during transformation from sample to display.

Yes, you can notice the effect of High-Res averaging (and reducing) the sample points quite vividly when stopped and in Dot display. Attached are two images at 200ns; while switching between Normal and High-Res modes.

It works while stopped to 100ns/div - and then, at 50ns/div, there is no noticeable change in the sample points when switching modes - and then, at <= 20ns/div, High-Res actually starts adding extra sample points (like interpolation) - shown in the second set of images.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bluesmoke on June 14, 2013, 04:56:46 am
Hello all... going to take the plunge on a DS2072. Looks like the only place in the US to get a good deal is Tequipment but they are out of stock. Did anyone recently place an order and how quickly did they get the scope?  New to electronics.. but it seems this is a good starting scope to play around with. I have a Tek 465b but I guess I won't use that much when I get my hands on the Rigol. Seems a great group of people here!
Dave
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 14, 2013, 12:25:04 pm
Hello all... going to take the plunge on a DS2072. Looks like the only place in the US to get a good deal is Tequipment but they are out of stock. Did anyone recently place an order and how quickly did they get the scope?

Welcome, Dave! Yes, there seems to be a shortage of DS2072s everywhere, which seems to be a bit of an error in Rigol's planning. I suppose they have been tooling up for the switch to -S models and they didn't anticipate the recent uptick in demand.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 14, 2013, 01:00:40 pm
Hi-res works best when the scan rate is such that there are Extra samples. (20 Sa/s  ;D)

One thing interesting to note: the DS2000 has 192MB (DDR2) of acquisition memory. The most, as a user, that you can directly use is 113,792,000 bytes (e.g. 14k x 8128 frames) - which leaves well over 64MB which is only accessed by the acquire hardware.

I suspect that, normally, the FPGA which moves samples from the ADC is alternating captures to two different banks of 64MB acquire memory (except when in record mode). This would explain why sometimes when the DSO is stopped - and I switch the acquisition mode to Average - it averages the waveform without capturing anything new! Where would it get another waveform(s) to average the currently displayed waveform from - if not another bank of memory? However, this doesn't always work - sometimes it does - sometimes it doesn't - based on parameters that are unclear to me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on June 14, 2013, 02:32:41 pm
Hey Dave, I just ordered a DS2072 from TEquipment (2 days ago), there currently is a lead time of 2 weeks. They are taking all orders as pre-orders that will be charged in 2 weeks when they get stock. Make sure to mention the EEVBlog when getting a quote to get a bit of a discount!

Lucky for you, TEquipment also ships the scope for free in the US. I'm ordering mine to Canada, 80$ shipping + Duty fees :(

Hello all... going to take the plunge on a DS2072. Looks like the only place in the US to get a good deal is Tequipment but they are out of stock. Did anyone recently place an order and how quickly did they get the scope?  New to electronics.. but it seems this is a good starting scope to play around with. I have a Tek 465b but I guess I won't use that much when I get my hands on the Rigol. Seems a great group of people here!
Dave
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bluesmoke on June 14, 2013, 09:39:28 pm
Just ordered from TEquipment ... they were kind enough to give a discount and free shipping but the lead time is 3 - 5 weeks. Looks like it is back to using the crusty Tek 465b for now!

Marmad: I want to thank you (and Dave) for your excellent reviews that clinched the purchase. I'm sure you are responsible for a lot of purchases. Rigol should be showering with free stuff!

Cody: Thanks for that. Those shipping costs are a pain. I would have considered a nice trip to the US  :)

Dave
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 15, 2013, 09:57:57 am
The manufacturer discontinued the free trial option? Is this true?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on June 15, 2013, 11:18:11 am
The manufacturer discontinued the free trial option?
said who?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 15, 2013, 11:32:26 am
The manufacturer discontinued the free trial option?
said who?
Aidetek (a ebay dealer), told me so. Could it be true?  :o
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 15, 2013, 11:39:24 am
Aidetek (a ebay dealer), told me so. Could it be true?  :o
Does Aidetek do the self-Cal ?  OOPS ;)
I have no idea, I'll have to ask him.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 15, 2013, 11:39:33 am
Aidetek (a ebay dealer), told me so. Could it be true?  :o

I haven't heard this directly - but I notice that it isn't advertised anymore at Batronix (and I'm fairly sure it was listed on the pages before). Also it wouldn't surprise me, since members here are posting openly on how to reset the trial minutes (and I know Rigol follows the forum).

It makes sense in a way - the new models (-S) are coming out, so there is a depleted stock everywhere with an increase in demand - a perfect time to do it if they were planning it.

Edit: I don't see trial options listed in the Tequipment ads either. Does someone who bought from them in the past know if it used to be mentioned? Teneyes?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 15, 2013, 11:45:28 am
Aidetek (a ebay dealer), told me so. Could it be true?  :o

I haven't heard this directly - but I notice that it isn't advertised anymore at Batronix (and I'm fairly sure it was listed on the pages before). Also it wouldn't surprise me, since members here are posting openly on how to reset the trial minutes (and I know Rigol follows the forum).

It makes sense in a way - the new models (-S) are coming out, so there is a depleted stock everywhere with an increase in demand - a perfect time to do it if they were planning it.

Yes, you're right. Let's see if someone can confirm.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 15, 2013, 12:23:41 pm
Poll, What will the price point be for the DS2072-S ?
 $999 ?, $1199? ........

Prices from Rigol's China website (translated to USD +3%):
DS2202      $2,310 / DS2102     $1,640 / DS2072     $1,138
DS2202-S  $2,642 / DS2102-S  $1,972 / DS2072-S  $1,470

Obviously, the prices don't match Western prices exactly - but they seem to be asking +~$330.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 15, 2013, 04:44:21 pm
Hello all... going to take the plunge on a DS2072. Looks like the only place in the US to get a good deal is Tequipment but they are out of stock. Did anyone recently place an order and how quickly did they get the scope?  New to electronics.. but it seems this is a good starting scope to play around with. I have a Tek 465b but I guess I won't use that much when I get my hands on the Rigol. Seems a great group of people here!
Dave

Hi Dave,
I placed an order with TEquipment back on June 4.  It hasn't shipped yet, but I knew going in that they were on back order.  The last update I got said that my order would ship June 21.  If that is true, then this might be a good time for you to order, assuming they'll receive enough stock to go around.

Good luck,
--Van
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bluesmoke on June 16, 2013, 12:45:04 am
Thanks Van,
I get an estimate date of 6/21 too on the order. I guess we will have to see how accurate it is.
I'm not too happy though if they are removing the trial options, it would be nice to try those out.  :--
I'll contact them Monday and see what I can find out.
Dave
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 16, 2013, 02:02:05 am
Hi Dave,
I placed an order with TEquipment back on June 4.  It hasn't shipped yet, but I knew going in that they were on back order.  The last update I got said that my order would ship June 21.  If that is true, then this might be a good time for you to order, assuming they'll receive enough stock to go around.

Good luck,
--Van

I spoke to TE about the DS2072 on April 25th, and at time they told me 4-6 weeks.  Rigol's website also said 4-6 weeks until it ships. Well, that was over 7 weeks ago and neither have gotten stock - I've been periodically checking in with each.

I hope yours comes in, but there is definitely something going on.  Maybe Rigol has paused production while working on the -S model?  I don't believe it's due to the positive reviews on this scope, because lots of Euro sellers have had stock coming in no problem.  They are just out of stock everywhere in the USA and have been for 2 months. 

If Rigol is going to charge +$330 USD for the -S option, that seems to be not worth the money, considering you can buy their standalone DG1000 for $50 more. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 16, 2013, 02:46:11 am
I spoke to TE about the DS2072 on April 25th, and at time they told me 4-6 weeks.  Rigol's website also said 4-6 weeks until it ships. Well, that was over 7 weeks ago and neither have gotten stock - I've been periodically checking in with each.
Judging from the other comments on this thread of people ordering (and receiving) theirs, it seems like the units that get to RigolNA immediately fulfill backorders, so there's never any standing stock. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mrbrown on June 16, 2013, 11:45:57 am
I received my DS2072 from Batronix 2 days ago, it has got trial options.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 16, 2013, 12:47:41 pm
[eBay Aidetek and DS2000 series without the free trial option]

I received my DS2072 from Batronix 2 days ago, it has got trial options.  :)

Good to know, I still expect a response from Aidetek. Thanks mrbrown.  8)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mrubbert on June 16, 2013, 02:53:19 pm
I will NOT buy anything from aidetek again !
Asked 3 times about firmware version and upgrade without any answer.
They still dident pay back my promised 80$ .
Aidetek are going total oposit way then other dealers, removing things instead of adding.

Lucky that i dident buy my DS2072 over there.
Its written many times where to buy DS2000.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 16, 2013, 03:22:14 pm
I will NOT buy anything from aidetek again !
Asked 3 times about firmware version and upgrade without any answer.
They still dident pay back my promised 80$ .
Aidetek are going total oposit way then other dealers, removing things instead of adding.

Lucky that i dident buy my DS2072 over there.
Its written many times where to buy DS2000.

I have also had some problems with Aidetek. And no returns allowed.
I do not recommend it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 17, 2013, 03:05:59 am
Thanks Van,
I get an estimate date of 6/21 too on the order. I guess we will have to see how accurate it is.
I'm not too happy though if they are removing the trial options, it would be nice to try those out.  :--
I'll contact them Monday and see what I can find out.
Dave

Although some folks have speculated on whether TE was still advertising the trial options, their webiste still lists it as having the trials for the SD-DS2 (serial data decode) :
SD-DS2     Serial data decode-RS-232, I2C, and SPI decoding (trial license comes with all DS2000 units)

That is based on their current page for the DS2072, http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS2072.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS2072.html).  I used the WayBack Machine to look over past versions of the TE web ads but didn't find any trial option mentioned besides the SD-DS2 as far back as September, 2012.  But there was not very much web crawler activity on the TE web site, so if promotion of other DS2072 trial options was made, it didn't get recorded by the crawlers.

I'm just keeping fingers crossed that mine will actually ship by the 21st.  I'm also hoping I don't regret not getting the higher BW version.

--Van
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 17, 2013, 11:57:33 am
Then, the current does not have these trial options?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 17, 2013, 12:12:17 pm
Then, the current does not have these trial options?

Perhaps Rigol is moving towards no trial minutes in upcoming versions, but for the moment, whether they are or not is completely irrelevant. Not only is the firmware currently being hacked by members here, but as we've posted many times already: it's easy to 're-start' the trial - and there is nothing preventing downgrading to earlier FW versions with the trial. So I'm not sure what difference it makes for prospective buyers. A lot of things would need to be changed in order to 'plug' this particular leak.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 17, 2013, 12:54:27 pm
Then, the current does not have these trial options?

Perhaps Rigol is moving towards no trial minutes in upcoming versions, but for the moment, whether they are or not is completely irrelevant. Not only is the firmware currently being hacked by members here, but as we've posted many times already: it's easy to 're-start' the trial - and there is nothing preventing downgrading to earlier FW versions with the trial. So I'm not sure what difference it makes for prospective buyers. A lot of things would need to be changed in order to 'plug' this particular leak.

That is reassuring, thanks for your valuable reply marmad.
I do not trust Aidetek. I asked to Aidetek, how much is the DS2072-S, only to see what price get.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 20, 2013, 02:35:17 am
Well, my DS-2072 is supposed to ship in two days.  I found out Tuesday from TEquipment that there had been an unusual shipping delay from China, but that finally, the shipment to Rigol NA would arrive very soon (or possibly had already arrived.) TE told me that my order would ship to me directly from Rigol NA instead of going to TE in NJ first.  I hope that information is accurate.

--Van
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on June 21, 2013, 05:00:39 am
Does anyone have inside information about when the next firmware revision may be released? I'm looking forward to bug #13 at the beginning of this thread being resolved. The workaround is a pain.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 21, 2013, 08:56:41 am
Does anyone have inside information about when the next firmware revision may be released? I'm looking forward to bug #13 at the beginning of this thread being resolved. The workaround is a pain.

It was supposed to be quickly - unfortunately, I'm afraid the other Rigol thread that started here in the last month may have played a role in delaying it. Hard to know for sure since Rigol has always been tight-lipped about it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on June 21, 2013, 06:05:29 pm
Does anyone have inside information about when the next firmware revision may be released? I'm looking forward to bug #13 at the beginning of this thread being resolved. The workaround is a pain.

It was supposed to be quickly - unfortunately, I'm afraid the other Rigol thread that started here in the last month may have played a role in delaying it. Hard to know for sure since Rigol has always been tight-lipped about it.

Yes, I follow the other thread and reading it's open content makes me cringe.  :palm:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on June 22, 2013, 05:59:53 am
Hello everyone

I again bought Rigol DS2072, and has now installed ground
Because I think DS2072 gives really great value.
I got it yesterday. Firmware version is 00.00.01.00.05 and all trial option is there.
I do not know why, but the noise from the fan is about 3-4 dB lower than the first Rigol DS2072 I returned. It's just lovely.
Maybe that's why people have different experiences of fan noise.
I am happy to be in this forum and read about Rigol DS2072. It inspire me.
Thanks to marmad, and everyone else on this thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: laavu on June 22, 2013, 12:43:51 pm
Another DS2072 owner reporting here - or actually the scope is still on its way. I ordered mine from Batronix yesterday and it was shipped the same day, so swift service there.

This is actually my first personal scope ever. Many times I've thought buying one but it wasn't until now when I pulled trigger. In the end I was having two choices: Rigol DS2000 series and Agilent DSOX2000 series. I was close to buying a four channel Agilent, but then it just looked liked that Rigol really is the best bang for the buck. The price wasn't a factor here. I could have spent 2000...3000euros for the Agilent, but eventually spent a little over 800e for the Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 22, 2013, 12:49:28 pm
Another DS2072 owner reporting here - or actually the scope is still on its way. I ordered mine from Batronix yesterday and it was shipped the same day, so swift service there.

This is actually my first personal scope ever. Many times I've thought buying one but it wasn't until now when I pulled trigger. In the end I was having two choices: Rigol DS2000 series and Agilent DSOX2000 series. I was close to buying a four channel Agilent, but then it just looked liked that Rigol really is the best bang for the buck. The price wasn't a factor here. I could have spent 2000...3000euros for the Agilent, but eventually spent a little over 800e for the Rigol.

Welcome! Yes, IMO currently the Rigol is the best bang-for-buck for a 2-channel DSO without a doubt. Of course, it's a different story if you want 4-channels, MSO, etc. But I prefer my tools separate (i.e. separate AWG, LA, etc). You won't be disappointed - it's great fun to use!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: borroz on June 22, 2013, 01:58:07 pm
and another newbie DS2072 owner reporting here .. hi    8)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on June 23, 2013, 10:40:52 am
and another newbie DS2072 owner reporting here .. hi    8)

Welcome to the site/thread, and have fun with your new scope. Tons of advice available here from the guys in the know if you get stuck :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chet T16 on June 23, 2013, 10:45:26 am
I may as well check in as I've ordered a DS2072 as an upgrade from my DS1052.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 23, 2013, 01:46:06 pm

Comparing Bandwidth of Rigol 2072 and 2202


I have measured the bandwidth of a Rigol DS 2072 ( 70 Mhz ) and a DS 2202 ( 200 Mhz )
with the same setup and same equipment. To see how the graphs looks like...

See attached graph.

First measured with a measuring head on the input of the DSO, and second
just with a 50 ohm terminator on the input. Gives a nice picture of the internal compensation.

Always lot of comment when using Mheads, but is in my opinion the best.
Try for example a 10 ohm terminator and you get totaly other results.

Someone ever decided to use 50 ohm, but why...??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on June 23, 2013, 02:28:10 pm
Hello Wim13,

can you please explain what a measuring head does.
Is it that it measure the signal at the input of scope and  adjust the signal at generator, so that the amplitude of the signal at input from scope is always the same?

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on June 23, 2013, 02:48:14 pm
Someone ever decided to use 50 ohm, but why...??
The common wire impedance of 50 Ohm is a compromise between good power handling (30 Ohm) and low cable loss (77 Ohm).
Thats why TV cables have 75 Ohm, they do not need to transport high power.

P.S. Check this link for deeper explanation: http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/why50ohms.cfm (http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/why50ohms.cfm)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 23, 2013, 03:18:29 pm
Hello Wim13,

can you please explain what a measuring head does.
Is it that it measure the signal at the input of scope and  adjust the signal at generator, so that the amplitude of the signal at input from scope is always the same?

Best Regards
egonotto

Thats correct, the input of the DSO is a complex impedance , so you never know what voltage there is on the
BNC connector of the DSO.  Whit a measuring head you keep the voltage constant on
the BNC input of the DSO. Normally the signal generator keeps it output constant
intermally on it final stage.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on June 23, 2013, 03:58:55 pm
Hello Wim13,

thanks.

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 23, 2013, 06:05:22 pm

Anti Aliasing

A few posts back, there was about aliasing, i had now on hands a nice example where i needed anti aliasing,
and you can clearly see the effects.

In the first picture below you see a 95 Mhz signal with AM modulation of 100 hz 50 %
no problem, but on the second picture, the carrier changed to 100 Mhz, and then it happens.

Because the sample speed is 200 Msa/s and the freq is 100 Mhz, see picture 2 below

Then i switch the persis. time to longer and then you get the wanted picture back. picture 3.
Turning on anti aliasing does not change anything, only the brightness.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 23, 2013, 06:54:49 pm
Turning on anti aliasing does not change anything, only the brightness.

Yes, my friend. We have decided that the coder who wrote the anti-aliasing FW routine thought his manager meant image anti-aliasing.  ;D  But I'd rather not have it at all - then having it ON all the time like it is on the Agilent X DSOs - causing crappy-looking randomly sampled waveforms when zoomed in.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jamesb on June 23, 2013, 07:43:46 pm
Interesting results, Wim13 ... they seem to agree with my casual observation / suspicion that the actual bandwidth (of my 2202) was much greater than the advertised 200MHz. Interesting to see that the -3dB point is around 275MHz
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 24, 2013, 11:19:45 pm
I don't know what's going on with the flow of shipments to the U.S., but it seems to have tricked down to nothing. The supposed ship date of my DS2072 came and went last Friday, so I called TEquipment today to find out if it had shipped yet.  They said that, according to Rigol, it will be another 10 to 12 days before any more ship.  Last week, after waiting three weeks since ordering, I was told that units would be shipping in just a few days directly to customers from Rigol in Ohio.  But, now, apparently that's all off.

So, considering these continual shipping delays, unfixed FW bugs and rumors of possible new anti-hacking measures, I decided to cancel my order and to re-direct my attention to a used analog scope to satisfy near-term needs.  Later, when it's more clear where this product is headed, perhaps I'll try again to get my hands on one.

--Van 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 25, 2013, 12:07:31 am
I don't know what's going on with the flow of shipments to the U.S., but it seems to have tricked down to nothing. The supposed ship date of my DS2072 came and went last Friday, so I called TEquipment today to find out if it had shipped yet.  They said that, according to Rigol, it will be another 10 to 12 days before any more ship.  Last week, after waiting three weeks since ordering, I was told that units would be shipping in just a few days directly to customers from Rigol in Ohio.  But, now, apparently that's all off.

So, considering these continual shipping delays, unfixed FW bugs and rumors of possible new anti-hacking measures, I decided to cancel my order and to re-direct my attention to a used analog scope to satisfy near-term needs.  Later, when it's more clear where this product is headed, perhaps I'll try again to get my hands on one.

--Van

Well that sucks.  I was one of those in that supposed Rigol shipment as well.  I thought it might arrive tomorrow.

I really cannot understand what is going on over at Rigol - and I don't understand why they wouldn't know last Tuesday when I ordered that there were no DS2072's coming on Friday.  I import tons of stuff from China and I always know what is coming and when.  There seems to be something  strange going on @ Rigol here.  Either they are not communicating with their distributors, or they are inept at handling orders/status/promises, or there is some kind of manufacturing problem we don't know about.

I don't buy the "these are just really popular!" line.  Nobody has stock and everyone I have called all say they have been trying to get them from Rigol but they never come in.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jonese on June 25, 2013, 12:48:00 am
Either manufacturing problem or product hold shipment pending firmware update.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 25, 2013, 12:54:15 am
I really cannot understand what is going on over at Rigol - and I don't understand why they wouldn't know last Tuesday when I ordered that there were no DS2072's coming on Friday.  I import tons of stuff from China and I always know what is coming and when.  There seems to be something  strange going on @ Rigol here.  Either they are not communicating with their distributors, or they are inept at handling orders/status/promises, or there is some kind of manufacturing problem we don't know about.

Those were also my concerns.  I mean, I really was sold on the DS2072 as a very advanced and affordable piece of test equipment-- and even fun to use!  But although I can understand backlogs,  I begin to see a red flag when a manufacturer repeatedly fails to meet already-promised distributor commitments within a reasonable time span.  Add to that minimal product update support and serious, unfixed bugs (although some to the advantage of consumers) and we see a very unclear picture of where Rigol is taking this product.

One of my biggest concerns is, as a late adopter, to receive a rapidly re-engineered version that attempted to plug security flaws and fix complex bugs with quick workarounds that lead to even more serious bugs and limitations down the road-- and possibly not even able to revert to a prior FW version.  So, I'll just wait a bit and see how it goes.

--Van
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 25, 2013, 01:35:45 am
But although I can understand backlogs,  I begin to see a red flag when a manufacturer repeatedly fails to meet already-promised distributor commitments within a reasonable time span.

I think you're being a little paranoid. Everyone knows the -S version is coming out shortly (if not already on sale in China) - so it's quite possible that backlogs/delays are connected to that. BTW, Batronix here in the EU (as well as other companies) seems to continue to have stock so it seems to be an NA problem - not a manufacturing or FW problem.

Quote
...and serious, unfixed bugs

What might those be? There are no serious bugs - and just one rather annoying one.

Quote
...and we see a very unclear picture of where Rigol is taking this product.

I'm not sure I follow. The DS2000 is very successful - so Rigol is coming out with an enhanced version with built-in AWG (the -S model) to broaden the line.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 25, 2013, 02:28:55 am
But although I can understand backlogs,  I begin to see a red flag when a manufacturer repeatedly fails to meet already-promised distributor commitments within a reasonable time span.

I think you're being a little paranoid. Everyone knows the -S version is coming out shortly (if not already on sale in China) - so it's quite possible that backlogs/delays are connected to that. BTW, Batronix here in the EU (as well as other companies) seems to continue to have stock so it seems to be an NA problem - not a manufacturing or FW problem.

Quote
...and serious, unfixed bugs

What might those be? There are no serious bugs - and just one rather annoying one.

Quote
...and we see a very unclear picture of where Rigol is taking this product.

I'm not sure I follow. The DS2000 is very successful - so Rigol is coming out with an enhanced version with built-in AWG (the -S model) to broaden the line.

I think it might be a manufacturing issue related to the USA-specific Rigol products.

I looked at their website and out of 26 'scopes they make, only 10 have any stock (mostly the old 1000 series).  No function generators in stock except for a few models of the DG5000 (no 1000's, or 4000's).  None of their multimeters are in stock.  Only one power supply is in stock out of 5.  And only one of their 9 spectrum analyzers are in stock.

Now I don't keep tabs on their inventory on a regular basis, but that seems like a pitifully low amount of stock considering I don't see any suppliers having stock either... it seems like nothing has come in for quite a while and they are "running dry".

Seems enough stock in other parts of the world though, so it appears to be affecting the USA only.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on June 25, 2013, 02:34:15 am
But although I can understand backlogs,  I begin to see a red flag when a manufacturer repeatedly fails to meet already-promised distributor commitments within a reasonable time span.

I think you're being a little paranoid. Everyone knows the -S version is coming out shortly (if not already on sale in China) - so it's quite possible that backlogs/delays are connected to that.

Quote
...and serious, unfixed bugs

What might those be? There are no serious bugs - and just one rather annoying one.

Quote
...and we see a very unclear picture of where Rigol is taking this product.

I'm not sure I follow. The DS2000 is very successful - so Rigol is coming out with an enhanced version with built-in AWG (the -S model) to broaden the line.

I'm not paranoid at all.  Just cautious.  Uncontrolled distribution delays, even in the wake of new product launches, is not a very positive sign.  If it's just a NA problem, even more reason for me to be concerned.

I consider the very security flaws that have been successfully exploited to be serious.  Workers may have paid with their jobs over these.  The anti-aliasing bug-- okay, you consider it an annoyance but others might consider it a serious bug.  Or maybe it's the bug that wipes out the trial options when the scope is calibrated that is the annoyance.  I consider these serious QA and support weaknesses when contemplating purchase of the product.

I have researched the technical features of the DS2072 and am sold on it from a technical standpoint.  But as one who has not yet had the opportunity to use the DS2072, which is obviously successful, I am concerned about how well this model will be supported by the manufacturer going forward: the timeliness of customer support, bug fixes, product updates, response to customer feedback, etc.  From comments made on this forum, and based on my personal experience with shipping delays, I'm not sure how important this version of the product is to Rigol.  That is why I want to take a wait-and-see stance, although, essentially, that decision has already been made for me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 25, 2013, 03:36:44 am
I consider the very security flaws that have been successfully exploited to be serious.

You consider it a serious bug that some owners are willing to void their warranty and attach wires to the FRAM and manipulate the contents in order to reset the minutes on their trial options? IMO, I don't really consider that a serious failing on Rigol's part.

Quote
The anti-aliasing bug-- okay, you consider it an annoyance but others might consider it a serious bug.

I consider it an as-yet-unimplemented feature - it just shouldn't be in the menus. I wouldn't mind having it, but it's not very important when you have a DSO with 56MB of memory that can sample at the full 2GSa/s down to 2ms/div. IMO, much better not to have it at all than it have it ON all the time as the Agilent X DSOs do.

Quote
Or maybe it's the bug that wipes out the trial options when the scope is calibrated that is the annoyance.

As mentioned in the bug list (first page), the latest FW version allows you to self-calibrate once without losing options - which should be enough for the 36 hour trial period.

Quote
I am concerned about how well this model will be supported by the manufacturer going forward: the timeliness of customer support, bug fixes, product updates, response to customer feedback, etc.

Badly - exactly the same as ALL Rigol products. That is the rub with Rigol - great products; great prices; crappy support. That hasn't changed yet - but perhaps some day. The alternative is to spend more for an Agilent - and get less bang-for-buck - but better support.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on June 25, 2013, 09:53:14 am
From the perspective of someone who bought this scope for personal use (i.e. not like a business spending 10k+ on a critical tool), my personal belief is people a making too much of the support aspects.  The types of phrases being used are what I'd use if I was looking to buy a car, where you're reliant on the manufacturer and its dealerships for on-going support and spares as things wear out.

Where as, I've bought an awesome scope for the money, just as I did with the DS1000 I bought many years ago.  If Rigol said tomorrow that they weren't going to release any more firmware and and they were stopping production of the model, would I really care?  Well it would be nice to have the measurement display anomaly cleared up, but other than that, no not really. I've got a warrentee (well I did) with a reputable Australian company that has to honor it under Australian law, and it's not like I'm expecting to have to go buy parts for it any time soon.  I'm not hanging out for major bug fixes, and it's an awesome scope for the $$$ as it is right now.  We've got an awesome user base on this forum that has proven to provide detailed responses to questions in a very timely manner that most manufacturers couldn't hope to match.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 25, 2013, 12:59:14 pm
I wish they did a 4 channel version of the DS2000. The 4000 series is rather expensive so there is nothing to compete with Agilent's 4 channel 2000X scopes.

Better buy a cheap Wishing Well
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Marc M. on June 25, 2013, 02:54:21 pm
...No function generators in stock except for a few models of the DG5000 (no 1000's, or 4000's)...
I ordered a DG4162 on June 17th from Tequipment and much to my surprise the tentative shipping date is August 7th  :(.  I also planned on purchasing a DS2202 but still haven't gotten a reply to my PM here to Tequipment regarding the EEVblog discount  >:(.  In addition, I e-mailed Rick @ Tequipment directly on June 19th when I found out they were out of stock until August about the possibility of changing the order from the generator to a scope and haven't gotten a reply from him either  >:(.  I expect poor customer service from Rigol, but certainly not from Tequipment :--.

If one of the members here would be kind enough to PM me the EEV discount code I would be very grateful.

And finally, a special thank you goes out to Marmad and the other ingenious folks who have put so much time and effort into exploring the full potential of these scopes :-+ :-+ :-+.  All your efforts are greatly appreciated by countless members here and elsewhere.

Marc - 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 25, 2013, 05:24:33 pm
Well, I just talked to TEquipment and they told me there are none in the USA and it is going to be a while before any come.  I asked how long "a while" is and they told me at least 4-6 weeks.  I asked if there are any at Rigol and if they were sitting there waiting for a firmware update or something, and he said nope - they have been in constant contact w/Rigol and there just aren't any in the USA - not at Rigol and not at any other distributors.  None, zero, zip, and none have come in for quite a while.

I am of the opinion that there is most definitely a production problem at Rigol.  I don't believe they are incapable of making any of their products and sending them to the USA for months at a time.   And it's not just the scopes either - it's everything.  Almost nothing they make is in stock anywhere in the USA.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dr.diesel on June 25, 2013, 05:50:59 pm
If one of the members here would be kind enough to PM me the EEV discount code I would be very grateful.

I don't believe there is a code, it's done on a case by case basis.  The stuff I've bought via EEV was a hard quote each time with no discount code.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 25, 2013, 05:59:06 pm
...No function generators in stock except for a few models of the DG5000 (no 1000's, or 4000's)...
I ordered a DG4162 on June 17th from Tequipment and much to my surprise the tentative shipping date is August 7th  :(.  I also planned on purchasing a DS2202 but still haven't gotten a reply to my PM here to Tequipment regarding the EEVblog discount  >:(.  In addition, I e-mailed Rick @ Tequipment directly on June 19th when I found out they were out of stock until August about the possibility of changing the order from the generator to a scope and haven't gotten a reply from him either  >:(.  I expect poor customer service from Rigol, but certainly not from Tequipment :--.

If one of the members here would be kind enough to PM me the EEV discount code I would be very grateful.

And finally, a special thank you goes out to Marmad and the other ingenious folks who have put so much time and effort into exploring the full potential of these scopes :-+ :-+ :-+.  All your efforts are greatly appreciated by countless members here and elsewhere.

Marc -

It was Rick I just talked to @ TE.  I had asked if he was the guy who is on EEVBlog and he said generally no, so if you PM'ed him then I don't think he comes to the site too much... I wouldn't hold it against them, I don't think the EEVBlog is an official support channel for them.

Anyway, I had just ordered on their website and then did a live chat with Dawn who was happy to apply the EEVBlog discount for me, so you don't need to use a code, just either place the order by phone, or request a quote, or place it online and then do a live-chat and ask them to apply the discount - they were happy to do so for me.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Marc M. on June 25, 2013, 07:08:58 pm
It was Rick I just talked to @ TE.  I had asked if he was the guy who is on EEVBlog and he said generally no, so if you PM'ed him then I don't think he comes to the site too much... I wouldn't hold it against them, I don't think the EEVBlog is an official support channel for them...

666, He's not the person that made the offer here on EEVblog.  I dealt with Rick when I purchased a DSA815-TG so he's the person I originally e-mailed.  My only issue with Rick is the lack of any response from him to my e-mail. Thanks for relaying your experience.
 

The Tequipment representative that offered the special EEVblog discount was Evan offered in this thread from the General Discussion:
I will set up a coupon code today to give a flat discount.  Its a bit complicated as some manufactures have a min sale price that we cannot go below that applies to certain items and with our current back end its not as sophisticated we would like.

Its also possible we can do better than this flat discount.. sometimes there is margin and sometimes there is not.  It depends on the brand or item.  Sometimes a quote is better but I think the flat discount would work for most items.

PM me for the code.  It was set up as I typed this.  This would also work on all clearance.  We are moving a bunch of items out below cost right now.

Thanks for the business,

Evan Cirelli
Co-owner of TEquipment.NET

This thread was who/why I sent the PM to them.  In my book, if it takes any company more than a week to respond to an customer, it amounts to poor customer service.  I followed their instructions as outlined above without any success (so far).  I'll try the RFQ process and hopefully, they'll be a little more responsive thru that channel. 
Marc -
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 26, 2013, 05:39:04 am
Turning on anti aliasing does not change anything, only the brightness.
As part of How Thick is Your Baselne on Your Digital Oscilloscope? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/basline-noise-in-your-digital-oscilloscope/msg248817/#msg248817), I learned more about what anti-alias is doing.  We already knew it was a sample->display thing, but here's an example where it actually fixes up waveform aliasing.  These are all the same part of the same capture. 500uV/div, displaying dots, peak acquire (though it happens with Normal as well).  You can see the first makes it look like the noise is restricted to two horizontal bands, but switching to a shorter time base makes that effect disapper--it was an aliasing artifact! The third returns to the original timebase but enables Anti-Alias.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 26, 2013, 05:53:39 am
The anti-aliasing bug-- okay, you consider it an annoyance but others might consider it a serious bug.
It's almost certainly working as intended.  I wouldn't call it a bug, but it is deceptive.

I found Hi Res to be even worse: Putting "High Resolution" in the sample section of the datasheet (and the acquire menu of the scope) is pretty much a lie, especially if other scopes actually implement it at signal->sample time.  The thing is, I would have been fine if Hi Res and Anti-Alias were billed as display filters.  But instead I feel misled.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 26, 2013, 08:44:30 am
We already knew it was a sample->display thing, but here's an example where it actually fixes up waveform aliasing.

This is not fixing WAVEFORM aliasing - it's doing something with IMAGE aliasing. The anti-aliasing is a non-functioning/wrongly-implemented feature on the DS2000. There have already been many posts about this.

I found Hi Res to be even worse: Putting "High Resolution" in the sample section of the datasheet (and the acquire menu of the scope) is pretty much a lie, especially if other scopes actually implement it at signal->sample time.

ALL DSOs with High-Res implement it the same way, and I suspect that if you look at Agilent documents, you'd see it listed in the same way (although I haven't checked).

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: rf-loop on June 26, 2013, 09:56:47 am
I found Hi Res to be even worse: Putting "High Resolution" in the sample section of the datasheet (and the acquire menu of the scope) is pretty much a lie, especially if other scopes actually implement it at signal->sample time.



Tektronix acquisition modes  in acq menu.

Quote
The digitizing oscilloscope supports five acquisition modes.

 Sample
 Peak Detect
 Hi Res
 Envelope
 Average

HighRes is acquisition mode - exactly.

Tell to Tektronix they have done it wrong. It is more like they have defined world of oscilloscpes (in history) and others have then followed....

Btw, it is also good to understand what is High Res mode, how it works.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 26, 2013, 10:27:57 am
HighRes is acquisition mode - exactly.

Tell to Tektronix they have done it wrong. It is more like they have defined world of oscilloscpes (in history) and others have then followed....

Btw, it is also good to understand what is High Res mode, how it works.

Galaxyrise was referring to the way it's listed in Rigol's specifications, but you're absolutely right. If you look at the DS2000 specs, it lists High-Resolution with the other Acquire modes (Peak Detect, Averaging, etc) and of course, they assume you understand how it works (just as Agilent assumes it in their X-Series datasheets - just checked them). The true Vertical Resolution (8-bit) is listed in the Vertical section. So I don't think Rigol can be accused of any kind of lying or misleading.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 26, 2013, 10:45:35 am
It's almost certainly working as intended.  I wouldn't call it a bug, but it is deceptive.

Just to elaborate: the way that the DSO SHOULD be implementing anti-aliasing is with oversampling which is then randomly decimated before display to avoid the appearance of a false low frequency component - or if the sample length is already deep, just random decimation when displayed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 26, 2013, 03:24:55 pm
Just to elaborate: the way that the DSO SHOULD be implementing anti-aliasing is with oversampling which is then randomly decimated before display to avoid the appearance of a false low frequency component - or if the sample length is already deep, just random decimation when displayed.
Right, we're agreeing with each other.  I'm saying the DS2000 seems to do the second part; it does sample->display randomization or something similar.  But it doesn't do the much more important signal->sample randomization.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 26, 2013, 03:56:02 pm
Tell to Tektronix they have done it wrong. It is more like they have defined world of oscilloscpes (in history) and others have then followed....
All I've found from Tek so far is "In hi-res mode, the data is significantly oversampled, and then a boxcar average is performed in acquisition hardware to real-time average".  This implies to me that the averaging happens before data is written to sample memory, but it's still a little vague.

From reading this Agilent app note (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-1617EN.pdf),  they state the ADC in their example is reading 20GSa/s but the waveform is 2.5GSa/s.  That sounds like what I was expecting: averaging in acquisition. 

This is not what the Rigol does. I don't think the DS2000 can oversample; that if the Rigol ADC is making 2G readings/s, then it's writing 2Gsa/s to sample memory.  Rigol's High Resolution averaging happens when displaying the sample memory. This is how Rigol achieves 2GSa/s, by moving everything to sample memory post-processing.

Rigol is approximating features of the big boy scopes, so they named them the same and put them in the same place... but they're not the same! And their approximation of Anti-Alias is nearly useless since their "vectors" algorithm already does a decent job preventing sample->display waveform aliasing. Calling them the same thing is definitely deceptive.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 26, 2013, 04:31:45 pm
I know the meaning of AC and DC coupling for the Signal input
But is the function of AC and DC coupling on the Trigger settings independent of the Channel signal coupling on the DS2000?

What happens with the Signal DC coupled, and Trigger AC coupled?

What happens with the Signal AC coupled, and Trigger DC coupled?

With the Trigger set to AC coupling;
the Trigger level (edge) varies with the trigger level knob, (orange voltage value)
but there is No orange Line --------------------.
Is that because the triggering subsystem cannot know the absolute DC level to put the line on the Display?  :-//

Am I explaining that OK.

Trigger on AC removes the DC component, example:

DC +10 Volt + sinus 1 Vtt,  then trigger level is about +10 volt at DC
lot of turning the trigger knob to 10 volts

if you turn trigger to AC, the trigger will trigger at 0 Volt, removing the DC component of 10 Volts.
you can turn trigger on and push the trigger button for 0 Volt.

So in AC mode the trigger signal is not the same level anymore as the displayed signal.
The DSO of course does not know the difference of the AC + DC componont of the signal, so
the trigger in AC mode does not know where the desired trigger level is on the screen. And the
orange line is meaningless.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 26, 2013, 04:46:18 pm
Right, we're agreeing with each other.  I'm saying the DS2000 seems to do the second part; it does sample->display randomization or something similar.  But it doesn't do the much more important signal->sample randomization.

No, we are not agreeing with each other. As far as my tests show, the Rigol does NOT do anything similar to what I mentioned at all.

This is not what the Rigol does. I don't think the DS2000 can oversample; that if the Rigol ADC is making 2G readings/s, then it's writing 2Gsa/s to sample memory.  Rigol's High Resolution averaging happens when displaying the sample memory. This is how Rigol achieves 2GSa/s, by moving everything to sample memory post-processing.

Rigol is approximating features of the big boy scopes, so they named them the same and put them in the same place... but they're not the same! And their approximation of Anti-Alias is nearly useless since their "vectors" algorithm already does a decent job preventing sample->display waveform aliasing. Calling them the same thing is definitely deceptive.

Sorry, man, but it seems as if you don't completely understand high-res or anti-aliasing.

Vectors on the Rigol don't do a damn thing towards preventing aliasing - as evidenced by many images already posted here. If you think they do, post an image which demonstrates this. Their Anti-Aliasing does NOT work - and is either a bug, unimplemented feature, or mistake.

But their High-Res works fine:

1) It's not approximating anything - it's doing High-Res PERFECTLY correctly. It's just math - whether you do it while sampling or after-the-fact - it doesn't make a bit of difference. No low cost DSO samples faster than their max. sample rate - they reduce the effective sample rate (and bandwidth) to deliver the simulated bits of resolution (see attached chart from Agilent 2000X manual). BTW, the Agilent is ALWAYS sampling at 2GSa/s - it just throws out samples instead of actually reducing the rate. And when you ask it to do High-Res, it just averages the samples it would have thrown away otherwise.

2) It's preferable to have post-processing done on data being moved to display memory - because then the sample memory contains the ORIGINAL samples! Which is want I want - I don't want already processed samples in memory! Why on Earth would you think that's better? I can always average the original samples again any time.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 26, 2013, 05:38:10 pm
What happens with the Signal AC coupled, and Trigger DC coupled?
What happens with the Signal AC coupled, and Trigger AC coupled?

So in AC mode the trigger signal is not the same level anymore as the displayed signal.
The DSO of course does not know the difference of the AC + DC componont of the signal, so
the trigger in AC mode does not know where the desired trigger level is on the screen. And the orange line is meaningless.

Well I tried  modes with and input signal  = a 1 Vpp Sin with 0.5 Vdc offset

when the DS2072 is   Chan 1 AC coupled
                       and  Trigger Setting is set to DC coupled
ACTs the Same as
                              Chan 1 AC coupled
                      and   Trigger Setting is set to AC coupled

So why not show the orange line!!

Because it is not the same.....

If trigger mode in in DC, there is a relation with the showed grid on the display ( not the displayed signal )
so the DSO can display a orange line.

If trigger on DC and is on 1 volt, there is a relation with 1 volt on the screen.

But in AC mode there is NO relation the the value next to the displayed grid
and the DSO does not now where to disply the line, so it does not.

In AC trigger mode 1 volt can be anywhere on the screen.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 26, 2013, 06:34:36 pm
"Aliasing is a potential problem in the DSO (Digitizing Storage Oscilloscope): the undersampled, high frequency component assumes the alias (or false identity) of a spurious, low frequency component."

In other words, if the sample rate isn't fast enough, high-frequency components can “fold down” into a lower frequency, causing aliasing in the display.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=52840)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 26, 2013, 07:03:12 pm
First image is an incorrect display of a 1MHz sine wave @ 5ms/div undersampled at 200kSa/s - causing aliasing (even though anti-aliasing is turned ON).
Second image is a correct display of a 1MHz sine wave @ 5ms/div sampled at 500MSa/s (by increasing the sample length to 56M) - causing no anti-aliasing.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Marc M. on June 26, 2013, 08:27:48 pm
I'll try the RFQ process and hopefully, they'll be a little more responsive thru that channel.
I submitted the RFQ this morning and they responded about 4 hours later, including the EEV discount and free shipping :D.  When I tried to pay via PayPal, I was charged shipping.  I did an online chat w/ Dawn and she refunded the shipping back thru PayPal.  In addition, she was able to apply the discount to the DG4162 I purchased earlier in the month prior to learning about Evan's very generous offer.  So while their customer service is lacking thru indirect channels, it's outstanding thru the Quote and Live Chat channels  :-+ :-+.  FWIW, they're estimating the lead time to be 2-3 weeks.  Sounds a bit optimistic but time will tell.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 27, 2013, 07:49:48 am
when the DS2072 is Chan 1 AC coupled and Trigger Setting is set to DC coupled
ACTs the Same as   Chan 1 AC coupled and Trigger Setting is set to AC coupled
So why not show the orange line!!
Because it is not the same.....
If trigger mode is in DC, there is a relation with the showed grid on the display ( not the displayed signal )so the DSO can display a orange line.
If trigger on DC and is on 1 volt, there is a relation with 1 volt on the screen.
But in AC mode there is NO relation the the value next to the displayed grid
and the DSO does not now where to display the line, so it does not.
In AC trigger mode 1 volt can be anywhere on the screen.
Does this go back to old Scope devices,
because I would think this DS2000 can determine the trigger value that is used to set the position on the display ,
thus show the trigger level line
Below are 4 displays , (note trigger level in low left corner)
  1.  Input DC coupled  with  trigger DC coupled
  2.  Input DC coupled  with  trigger AC coupled  (no trigger line)
  3.  Input AC coupled  with  trigger DC coupled
  4.  Input AC coupled  with  trigger AC coupled  (no trigger line)

What is the Difference between 3 & 4?
Just my small preference :)

The difference is about 100 mV

In picture 3 trigger level is DC+AC, in picture 4 trigger level is AC
if the DC component is 0 or very small, then DC+AC=AC, thats why there is little difference.

More theory:

In DC trigger mode the trigger is fixed, even with no input, the level is fixed and kown.

In AC trigger mode the trigger is dynamic, trigger level is depeding of average AC signal, so not fixed
and its position is not kown.

If in AC trigger mode you change the shape of the waveform, the trigger point will shift, how do you want
this in an orange line on the screen, it will be not steady.

In AC trigger mode the average value of the AC voltage is the 0, this is the reference for the trigger, from there it calculating
the offset. Not from a fixed point.




Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: eastonwolfs on June 27, 2013, 12:32:02 pm
Hi guys,

First post, so hope this is relevant and appropriate! Further to the discussion on high resolution mode, etc, I just wanted to mention that there's a good youtube video by this chap called called Alan who (I think) works for Tek.  He does (IMO) a very good job of discussing acquisition modes and explaining the differences between them, as well as elucidating upon the overall data processing path from signal input to display. The link to the video is below.

Tutorial on Digital Oscilloscope sample rate, record length and data processing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E09IjTzslA0#ws)

Regards,  Will.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jedreg on June 27, 2013, 02:18:14 pm
Can anyone help me a little with getting 01.00.05 firmware? I have 01.00.02 FW and 1.1.0.0 HW. I assume it is one GEL file applicable for all world regions, isn't it?Rigol support has sent me recent 01.00.00.03 which I do not want use (for some obvious reason with "trial" keyword in it).

By the way, shame on Rigol support for disclaimer I have received:
"Please be  aware a firmware update is on your own risk. If a firmware update goes fail, in some cases the instrument doesn’t work anymore. If repair cost come up, because of a failed firmware update, these cost have to be took over by you."
The sold me DSO that does not work as expected, because of firmware defects, so this is should be resolved as part of warranty umbrella. Sounds like another reason to not flash recent firmware :P

Marmad, Teneyes, thank you once more for PM support!

cheers,
andy | http://amichalec.net (http://amichalec.net)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: trackerj123 on June 27, 2013, 03:19:28 pm
First of all I want to say hello to everybody, as a new joined user to this amazing forum!

Was looking around for a new scope and ...my god...this thread is delicious :D

I was just finished it to-date, after 2 loong nights and what can I say...who can give me a good European source for a Rigol DS2XXX series one? :). Probably only a DS2072, depending on final price + VAT + shipping, etc. Batronix is out of stock now. Anyone around who is selling them?

Thank you all and as soon as I have it you will know!

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 27, 2013, 04:07:39 pm
Can anyone help me a little with getting 01.00.05 firmware? I have 01.00.02 FW and 1.1.0.0 HW. I assume it is one GEL file applicable for all world regions, isn't it?Rigol support has sent me recent 01.00.00.03 which I do not want use (for some obvious reason with "trial" keyword in it).

01.00.05 Firmware

http://rapidshare.com/files/2813177036/DS2000Update.GEL (http://rapidshare.com/files/2813177036/DS2000Update.GEL)

I'm not sure what you mean about trials and 01.00.00.03 - they work fine with it. I personally think 01.00.00.03 is better - almost all bugs fixed (with one addition).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 27, 2013, 04:10:01 pm
I was just finished it to-date, after 2 loong nights and what can I say...who can give me a good European source for a Rigol DS2XXX series one? :). Probably only a DS2072, depending on final price + VAT + shipping, etc. Batronix is out of stock now. Anyone around who is selling them?

Check directly via PM or email with EEVBlog member Drieg = Petr Šmíd (smidp321@gmail.com www.silcon.cz (http://www.silcon.cz)) Rigol distributor in CZ. I don't know what his stock in, but you might be able to get a deal from him.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: laavu on June 27, 2013, 04:38:18 pm
I just unboxed my DS2072, which I ordered from Batronix. And yes, there's a warranty sticker on these scopes now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: trackerj123 on June 27, 2013, 04:47:28 pm
Thank you marmad,

I will PM Drieg about then.

PS: nice piece of software your one, looking forward to test it live :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on June 27, 2013, 05:02:29 pm
Mine (purchased in April in Switzerland) also had a warranty sticker. It is no problem to lift it up gently so that you can open the scope with anyone noticing. BUT: On my scope, the heads of the screws which hold the metal case together are all marked with a thin red substcane, which will show any scratches from screwdrivers.

So in my case, no exchange of the noisy fan without a void warranty...  :(

MfG XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 27, 2013, 05:11:10 pm
I just unboxed my DS2072, which I ordered from Batronix. And yes, there's a warranty sticker on these scopes now.

I'm pretty sure there's always been one on there - I have one on mine bought in October 2012. Put if you want to open the DSO, there are ways around it without breaking it - look for mikeselectricstuff's video.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: laavu on June 27, 2013, 05:18:43 pm
I'm pretty sure there's always been one on there - I have one on mine bought in October 2012. Put if you want to open the DSO, there are ways around it without breaking it - look for mikeselectricstuff's video.
Ok, I was under impression that older models didn't have anything similar on them and this was added later/recenly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: eastonwolfs on June 27, 2013, 05:25:17 pm
Hi Guys,

Since I'm a newbie I thought it might be worth telling you a little about my recent experiences.  I bought a DS2102 on the back of Dave's excellent review of the DS2000 series.  The DS2072 wasn't in stock and I figured the extra bandwidth would come in handy...  I am so incredibly impressed by the capabilities, way way better than the DS1102 I had prior to it.  In fact, it amazes me to think that in the early 90's I was paying 20,000 GPB for an HP 1 GHz sampling scope that did a fraction of what the Rigol does (long before Agilent existed).  Well ok, the money was not from me personally, it was from the company I was working for at the time, but as a young engineer, getting that scope at the time seemed like someone had given me the keys to Aladdins cave  :)

Unfortunately I quickly discovered the Rigol 'self cal' problem before I could even try the options.  It's a great pity that I had not found this extensive thread before trying out my scope; I would have waited before doing any cal.  I did talk to my supplier/distributor (here in the UK) - although they are willing to help they have not heard of this issue before, and so the members of this forum are the experts to talk to as far as I can see.  I have noticed talk of a 'secret handshake' and if anyone is able to PM me and help me out I would really appreciate it?  (** see my added comment below...)

By the way, a significant part of my background is in RF/microwave, I guess I'm one of the 'grey beards' that Dave sometimes mentions in his teardown videos. If anyone wants to know more about the high frequency stuff (more the passives than the actives), I can help!

Regards, Will.

** Many thanks to those who responded via PM - it's great to join a community where people help each other out like that. I hope I find a way to do likewise in the future...   :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Paul Price on June 27, 2013, 05:52:01 pm
TrackerJ123,

When I requested a Rigol Scope quote saying that I would only buy from the best quoted price, they offered me a 5% discount better than Batronix price.
They are in the Fatherland.

www.meilhaus.com (http://www.meilhaus.com)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: beeswax on June 27, 2013, 06:20:39 pm
I'm in basically the same situation as Will. I made the mistake of doing the self-cal and lost all the trial options. Can anyone help us?  :-[
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Kobus on June 27, 2013, 07:47:29 pm
A while back Dave mentioned it would be interesting to compare the 500uV ranges or the DS2000 and the Tek2225.
I just received my DS2072 and took a couple of shots.

Here is the same 10 kHz signal on both scopes at 500uV.
I included a 64 averages shot and a Hi Res as well.
(excuse the camera, I didn't have a USB stick on hand at the time)

Soon after, my DS2072 "gave off the magic smoke"  :-BROKE  No more playing 'till it gets replaced  :'( 
(Being that Rigol supplied me with a a faulty unit, would be decent of
them to pick up the tab on all associated expenses, return shipping, customs clearing fee etc.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on June 28, 2013, 06:24:05 pm
Hi all,

My DS2072 arrived today.......yup a very nice upgrade to my old UTD2102CEL.

Anyways, I found a rather novel way of mounting the scope on my workbench.......I made a 'swivel shelf'.
This means the scope is off the actual bench itself, but it's also still low enough to have it at a nice level i.e. it's not high up on a shelf. The ability to rotate it around is a great bonus as my workbench is 'L' shaped and I tend to work on both sides. The scope is in the corner.

PS. Yes, yes, I'll tidy the cables at the back.........sometime!

(http://www.ianjohnston.com/Workshop/DS2072.JPG)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 28, 2013, 06:39:26 pm
I got my DS2072 today too! 

Very nice.  Very nice indeed!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 28, 2013, 06:50:20 pm
I got my DS2072 today too! 

Very nice.  Very nice indeed!

So it sounds as if the tap has opened up again finally in NA. Good to hear it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 28, 2013, 07:05:00 pm
I got my DS2072 today too! 

Very nice.  Very nice indeed!

So it sounds as if the tap has opened up again finally in NA. Good to hear it.

Interesting story on that...

TE quoted a ship date of 6/21 (last Friday).  I read Van-C's post about the delay, so I called TE early this week and was told 4-6 weeks "at least".  That was kind of upsetting so I decided to call Rigol directly and see what was going on.  I got someone in their technical/development group, not someone in sales.  He was really cool actually, and we chatted a bit - he told me they had "some" DS2072's in their inventory that they hadn't put on the website.  I asked if I can get one and he said sure.  It arrived today.

I wanted to wait before cancelling my TE order, just in case Rigol made some mistake and shipped a different part.  But it was correct.  When I spoke to Dawn @ TE (who is awesomely helpful!)  she said their shipment of DS2072's had just arrived that day and were being readied for shipment.  The only part that sucks for me is I paid an extra $70 to buy from Rigol which I wouldn't have if I knew TE was getting them today, but such is life.

So... anyone who has one on order with TE should see it shipped shortly, I imagine.  I can't speak for TE but I think that's the case.  I changed my order over to the new DP832A power supply.  And I will try to find a way to squeeze a DG4062 in there as well - it's only money  :-DD
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on June 28, 2013, 07:51:01 pm
I made a 'swivel shelf'.

Very nice on the swivel shelf - awesome.

When I spoke to Dawn @ TE (who is awesomely helpful!)  she said their shipment of DS2072's had just arrived that day and were being readied for shipment.

Woo hoo! :)  I hope they ship mine soon!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bluesmoke on June 28, 2013, 08:06:03 pm
Big question is..... Do you still have trial options?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on June 28, 2013, 08:06:47 pm
TE says they will ship out on Monday.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 28, 2013, 08:39:05 pm
Big question is..... Do you still have trial options?

I do.  Well, I haven't used them, but upon bootup, I get a screen showing "installed options" and I have several listed under Trigger and a few decode options listed too (RS232, SPI, etc).  They all list 2126 minutes left (I think they've counted down a few minutes).

When I click System Info, I get software version 00.01.00 and hardware version 1.0.  I know (think) there is an extra byte on the end of the software version that I have to do some button pushing to see?  I just haven't had time to do much else other than power it up and play with a couple of the features.  I have a couple of PCB's I'm trying to get over to the board house this weekend and some machining to do, so just a bit busy.

If someone can tell a lazy SOB like me what to do in order to see any full firmware version or if there's anything anyone wants to know about my 'scope, let me know and I will do it and post up.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on June 28, 2013, 08:45:32 pm
If one of the members here would be kind enough to PM me the EEV discount code I would be very grateful.
I don't believe there is a code, it's done on a case by case basis.  The stuff I've bought via EEV was a hard quote each time with no discount code.
Just wanted to throw a link out to this thread quick in case anyone is still looking for the Tequipment.net code:
Special Price FOR EEVblog Members (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/special-price-for-eevblog-members/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 28, 2013, 10:37:13 pm
If someone can tell a lazy SOB like me what to do in order to see any full firmware version or if there's anything anyone wants to know about my 'scope, let me know and I will do it and post up.
It's all listed in the third post of this thread (down near the bottom). (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

If the DSO came from back inventory, I'm guessing you'll have FW 01.00.02 or 01.00.05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 29, 2013, 01:02:51 am
If someone can tell a lazy SOB like me what to do in order to see any full firmware version or if there's anything anyone wants to know about my 'scope, let me know and I will do it and post up.
It's all listed in the third post of this thread (down near the bottom). (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

If the DSO came from back inventory, I'm guessing you'll have FW 01.00.02 or 01.00.05.

I can't get that to work.  I am in the trigger menu w/Edge selected and I'm hitting 7/6/7/Utility quickly (tried to do it all within 1/2 second - also tried to do it slower and more deliberately), and I have key beep turned on, so I know I am getting the key presses.  It beeps on 7/6/7 and on Utility it brings up the Utility menu.

Anything else that needs to be set - like channels off, in single/run/stop or something?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mickpah on June 29, 2013, 01:12:08 am
If someone can tell a lazy SOB like me what to do in order to see any full firmware version or if there's anything anyone wants to know about my 'scope, let me know and I will do it and post up.
It's all listed in the third post of this thread (down near the bottom). (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

If the DSO came from back inventory, I'm guessing you'll have FW 01.00.02 or 01.00.05.

I can't get that to work.  I am in the trigger menu w/Edge selected and I'm hitting 7/6/7/Utility quickly (tried to do it all within 1/2 second - also tried to do it slower and more deliberately), and I have key beep turned on, so I know I am getting the key presses.  It beeps on 7/6/7 and on Utility it brings up the Utility menu.

Anything else that needs to be set - like channels off, in single/run/stop or something?

this confused me. are you using the buttons on the right side of  the screen ? - they are what worked for me
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 29, 2013, 01:26:35 am
If someone can tell a lazy SOB like me what to do in order to see any full firmware version or if there's anything anyone wants to know about my 'scope, let me know and I will do it and post up.
It's all listed in the third post of this thread (down near the bottom). (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

If the DSO came from back inventory, I'm guessing you'll have FW 01.00.02 or 01.00.05.

I can't get that to work.  I am in the trigger menu w/Edge selected and I'm hitting 7/6/7/Utility quickly (tried to do it all within 1/2 second - also tried to do it slower and more deliberately), and I have key beep turned on, so I know I am getting the key presses.  It beeps on 7/6/7 and on Utility it brings up the Utility menu.

Anything else that needs to be set - like channels off, in single/run/stop or something?

this confused me. are you using the buttons on the right side of  the screen ? - they are what worked for me

Yep, the gray/blue buttons (1 through 7, 1 being the top one just below the menu key, the 7 being the bottom just above the up arrow key).

I had the scope on from earlier, so I pressed the "trigger" menu and it was set to edge already.  So with the trigger menu still open, I pressed 7/6/7/Utility quickly.   The 7/6/7 beeps on each press, and when I hit utility that menu just popped up.  I tried different speeds, all the way to "as fast as I bet anyone could do it" and nothing.

Is it possible I have a later firmware and this keypress method to get the full version info has been removed?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 29, 2013, 01:31:41 am
I can't get that to work.  I am in the trigger menu w/Edge selected and I'm hitting 7/6/7/Utility quickly (tried to do it all within 1/2 second - also tried to do it slower and more deliberately), and I have key beep turned on, so I know I am getting the key presses.  It beeps on 7/6/7 and on Utility it brings up the Utility menu.

Don't use key beep - it's possible that might cause it NOT to function. It doesn't have to be that fast - just quickly, with very little pause between keys. I never had any trouble with it once I realized that you just couldn't pause for long between key presses.

Is it possible I have a later firmware and this keypress method to get the full version info has been removed?

Not unless you have a version of the FW no one else has - or has seen. But why would they remove it? It just brings up a test mode menu. Plus you can get the full FW version easily using SCPI commands as well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: brob on June 29, 2013, 05:10:07 am
Hi everyone

I am a new member from Canada but have been following it for quite some time. I ordered a DS2072 back on May 7 from Tequipment and it finally arrived a few days ago on June 25. They changed the expected delivery date about 4 times before they actually marked it as shipped. It comes with all trial options installed with approx. 2100 minutes to go. It also came with firmware version 00.00.01.00.05  I have also been following the hacking rigol i2c thread and it is looking very interesting. :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 29, 2013, 11:07:15 am
Is it possible I have a later firmware and this keypress method to get the full version info has been removed?

If you still can't get the button method to work, install NI VISA runtime (you need it for RUU anyway) and Rigol Ultra Sigma software.

Connect DSO via USB; boot the DSO; start Ultra Sigma; open SCPI Control Panel; type (or copy and paste) the following:

:SYSTem:SETup?

You will see the full FW version number in the top line of the return data.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 29, 2013, 05:22:51 pm
Is it possible I have a later firmware and this keypress method to get the full version info has been removed?

If you still can't get the button method to work, install NI VISA runtime (you need it for RUU anyway) and Rigol Ultra Sigma software.

Connect DSO via USB; boot the DSO; start Ultra Sigma; open SCPI Control Panel; type (or copy and paste) the following:

:SYSTem:SETup?

You will see the full FW version number in the top line of the return data.

It's strange, I turned key beep off and still could not see the firmware screen.  I must have tried it over 100 times being very deliberate and careful with button presses. 

Well, I installed NI-Visa and RUU (great software, BTW!) and typed the command into the SCPI control panel.  Result: 00.01.00.00.03.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 29, 2013, 07:15:15 pm
It's strange, I turned key beep off and still could not see the firmware screen.  I must have tried it over 100 times being very deliberate and careful with button presses. 

Well, I installed NI-Visa and RUU (great software, BTW!) and typed the command into the SCPI control panel.  Result: 00.01.00.00.03.

You were checking System -> System Info after each of those times, right? If so, it's very strange... I just did it with FW 01.00.00.03 first time without a problem.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Corporate666 on June 29, 2013, 11:05:44 pm
It's strange, I turned key beep off and still could not see the firmware screen.  I must have tried it over 100 times being very deliberate and careful with button presses. 

Well, I installed NI-Visa and RUU (great software, BTW!) and typed the command into the SCPI control panel.  Result: 00.01.00.00.03.

You were checking System -> System Info after each of those times, right? If so, it's very strange... I just did it with FW 01.00.00.03 first time without a problem.

Figured it out.

I ran the key test, and while I had done that previously, this time when I pressed the '6' key, nothing happened.  I had noticed the key felt a little different, so after some more testing it was not working - unless you really pushed it slowly, hard and deliberately.  I pushed the key in really hard and wiggled it around a little, and now it's fine.  It's almost like there was something on the board or the key was not accurately lined up in it's set.  Now it works, and the key feels like the others!

And now I see the full system info on the screen. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on June 30, 2013, 01:36:58 pm
TE sent me a tracking number, I should get it Friday.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 30, 2013, 04:47:57 pm
From the Rigol website:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)


Firmware Update Request

 
Here are the latest Firmware versions by Rigol product family as of June 1, 2013:

DS2000 FW-Version: 00.01.00.00.03

DS4000 FW-Version: 00.01.00.00.07

DS6000 FW-Version: 00.01.04

DSA815 FW-Version: 00.01.06

DSA1000 FW-Version: 00.01.14

DG4000 FW-Version: 00.01.06

DG5000 FW-Version: 01.01.08

To request an upgrade please fill out the information below and we will contact you. Upgrade compatibility may depend on the serial number, hardware revisions and current firmware of your instrument. Not all instruments may be upgradable to the latest firmware.

You can also contact your local office or distributor for information or to discuss the benefits of a firmware update.

Rigol Technologies USA Applications:
www.rigoltech.com (http://www.rigoltech.com)
Email: techsupport@rigol.com
Phone: 440-232-4488

Rigol Technologies EU GmbH:
Lindberghstraße 4
82178 Puchheim
+49 (0)89 - 8941895-0
sales-europe@rigoltech.com
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 30, 2013, 05:02:10 pm
From the Rigol website: an other way of default factory reset.
And how to upgrade Firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 30, 2013, 05:13:56 pm
Thanks Wim13!  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 30, 2013, 06:43:12 pm
Made a complete graph for the Bandwidth of the 2072, 2102 and 2202.

They have all different bandwidth
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 30, 2013, 06:47:59 pm
Made a complete graph for the Bandwidth of the 2072, 2102 and 2202.

They have all different bandwidth

It is curious. Maybe there are slight differences in the input stage.
I do not think this is due to the software/firmware.
It would be nice to have a electrical schematic of the input stage. 



Anyone have pictures of the input stage of the three models?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 30, 2013, 06:58:36 pm

As far i could find has to do with this IC,

The LMH6518
• Oscilloscope Programmable Gain Amplifier
of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 750 MHz or full bandwidth.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 30, 2013, 07:05:39 pm

As far i could find has to do with this IC,

The LMH6518
• Oscilloscope Programmable Gain Amplifier
of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 750 MHz or full bandwidth.

Well I do not know, but I think that this difference is due more to the passive components. (Different values??, perhaps)  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on June 30, 2013, 07:11:20 pm
This input stage is a Hantek / TEKWAY ...

As you can see there are slight differences.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on June 30, 2013, 08:24:35 pm
As far i could find has to do with this IC,
The LMH6518
• Oscilloscope Programmable Gain Amplifier
of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 750 MHz or full bandwidth.

Is it possible that:

DS2072 --> 100
DS2102 --> 200
DS2202 --> 350

???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on June 30, 2013, 09:46:17 pm
Hi all,

Been playing with my DS2072 (00.01.00.00.03) and subject to more testing I seem to have found a bug/issue.

Triggering some SPI bus data I was using pulse triggering (NORMAL mode) and it was fine, I got my waveform nice and steady on the screen. I left the scope running like that for at least 20mins then decided I wanted to look at an analogue signal so set the triggering back to AUTO and moved the scope probe to what was a 1.25vdc steady DC voltage..........however, the scope looked like it was stuck in NORMAL triggering mode as I could not get a trace on the screen......well actually there was a trace there, just not refreshing.

Reset power to the scope and it was all fine again.

Next time it happens I'll have to pay attention to what else the scope was saying......but for now there it is!

Ian.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on July 01, 2013, 03:56:14 am
I hooked my scope up to Ethernet just now, and was a little surprised by the instrument introduction:

Quote
Instrument   Introduction
DS2000 Series is a new generation oscilloscope. It has 2 channels. It has a sibling version with logic analyser DS2000D. The maximum bandwidth is 200M, and the peak sampling rate is up to 1G.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 01, 2013, 07:54:01 am
I hooked my scope up to Ethernet just now, and was a little surprised by the instrument introduction:

Quote
Instrument   Introduction
DS2000 Series is a new generation oscilloscope. It has 2 channels. It has a sibling version with logic analyser DS2000D. The maximum bandwidth is 200M, and the peak sampling rate is up to 1G.

Yes, this was mentioned a long time ago in one of the first threads on the DSO. It seems this was written before the DSO was fully-developed - and obviously their plans changed and they went with the DS2000-S sibling first.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 01, 2013, 08:03:06 am
Doesn't exactly inspire confidence. You could buy a scope and then find out later that Rigol can't be bothered to release firmware fixes for that revision of the hardware.

You can have that problem with anything you buy - Western or Chinese made. But I personally prefer a Chinese company which appears to practice full disclosure and straightforwardness in their published specifications - even though it's perhaps a bit harder to get a hold of the latest firmware - then pretty much every other Chinese manufacturer (including GW-Instek).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jedreg on July 01, 2013, 02:47:45 pm
I'm not sure what you mean about trials and 01.00.00.03 - they work fine with it. I personally think 01.00.00.03 is better - almost all bugs fixed (with one addition).

I was just curious if trial options counter that is about to expire still can be restarted on 01.00.00.03...

BTW I am joining DS2072 crowd as I decided to return couple days old DS2102 in favour of device from our Rigols' doctor "drieg" even it is cross-country, firstly because of invaluable help of "drieg" (we know it), secondly because DS2k hardware is the same hardware 1/4 price cheaper (now I know it ) and thirdly because of arrogance and ignorance of national reseller (now I experience it).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 01, 2013, 02:59:55 pm
I was just curious if trial options counter that is about to expire still can be restarted on 01.00.00.03...

Yes - or you can use the code posted in the other thread to turn the options on each boot.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 01, 2013, 03:04:48 pm
Vectors on the Rigol don't do a damn thing towards preventing aliasing - as evidenced by many images already posted here. If you think they do, post an image which demonstrates this. Their Anti-Aliasing does NOT work - and is either a bug, unimplemented feature, or mistake.


sorry I may be late to the party..

The anti-aliasing function may not do what you expect but it does work. Here is an example same signal with and without anti-aliasing.  I should have tried to zoom in to see what the actual waveforms look like. But there is some difference
CH1 is ~700Hz and CH2 is @ 7 MHz envelopes.   The second picture - Antialiasing ON

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 01, 2013, 04:17:56 pm
This input stage is a Hantek / TEKWAY ...

As you can see there are slight differences.

The Rigol has a differnt chip on the entry, that can be programmed for the bandwidth, and can
be changed by software, so very different from the Hantek


From the TI datsheet of this chip:

The LMH6518 gain is programmed via a SPI-1
compatible serial bus. A signal path combined gain
resolution of 8.5 mdB can be achieved when the
LMH6518's gain and the Gsps ADC's FS input are
both manipulated. Inputs and outputs are DC-
coupled. The outputs are differential with individual
Common Mode (CM) voltage control (for Main and
Auxiliary outputs) and have a selectable bandwidth
limiting circuitry (common to both Main and Auxiliary)
• Oscilloscope Programmable Gain Amplifier
of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 750 MHz or full bandwidth.


for the 2072 it is 100 Mhz
for the 2102 it is 200 Mhz
for the 2202 it is 350 Mhz

Because of its 1 MOhm entry is loses some of its real bandwidth.
And that is why you see on all models the 20 Mhz filter.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 04:22:19 pm
This input stage is a Hantek / TEKWAY ...

As you can see there are slight differences.

The Rigol has a differnt chip on the entry, that can be programmed for the bandwidth, and can
be changed by software, so very different from the Hantek


From the TI datsheet of this chip:

The LMH6518 gain is programmed via a SPI-1
compatible serial bus. A signal path combined gain
resolution of 8.5 mdB can be achieved when the
LMH6518's gain and the Gsps ADC's FS input are
both manipulated. Inputs and outputs are DC-
coupled. The outputs are differential with individual
Common Mode (CM) voltage control (for Main and
Auxiliary outputs) and have a selectable bandwidth
limiting circuitry (common to both Main and Auxiliary)
• Oscilloscope Programmable Gain Amplifier
of 20, 100, 200, 350, 650, 750 MHz or full bandwidth.

Yes, but something makes me think that there is something more.
Imagine sending the command to 750MHz BW  :scared:

As you can see there are more things besides the LMH6518.

I wonder how the input stage seems to the schematic at the LMH6518 datasheet...

It is likely that there are differences in the input stages of the DS2000 series.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 01, 2013, 04:33:16 pm
sorry I may be late to the party..

The anti-aliasing function may not do what you expect but it does work. Here is an example same signal with and without anti-aliasing.  I should have tried to zoom in to see what the actual waveforms look like. But there is some difference
CH1 is ~700Hz and CH2 is @ 7 MHz envelopes.   The second picture - Antialiasing ON

This has nothing to do with what I expect - it has to do with what anti-aliasing MEANS in terms of DSOs. What you are showing in your images has nothing to do with anti-aliasing in reference to a DSO. If you think it does, give me a link to an explanation (which contains the terms 'anti-aliasing' and 'DSO'). OTOH, I can you dozens of links to explanations of what anti-aliasing SHOULD be doing on a DSO.

I know the Rigol is doing SOMETHING when you turn on anti-aliasing, but it's definitely NOT doing anti-aliasing as defined for DSOs - thus it DOES NOT WORK.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 01, 2013, 04:37:00 pm
It is likely that there are differences in the input stages of the DS2000 series.

Wim's chart of the different BW's of the different models was all made on the same DSO - he just changed the BW via software codes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 04:41:36 pm
It is likely that there are differences in the input stages of the DS2000 series.

Wim's chart of the different BW's of the different models was all made on the same DSO - he just changed the BW via software codes.

Oh I understand, sorry for the confusion.  :phew:

Imagine sending the command to 750MHz BW  :scared:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 01, 2013, 05:43:00 pm

I know the Rigol is doing SOMETHING when you turn on anti-aliasing, but it's definitely NOT doing anti-aliasing as defined for DSOs - thus it DOES NOT WORK.

I think this function changes how captured samples are mapped to pixels on the screen to minimize aliasing.  It doesn't change the way the signal is sampled. It works when scan rate is much slower than the sampling rate.  What did you expect this button to do?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 05:55:32 pm
Imagine sending the command to 750MHz BW  :scared:

I understand that a member, tried setting higher BW modes with the Hardware hack and the the DS2000 is NOT capable of more BW

Any idea of why this happens.  :-//
Get at least at 400MHz/350MHz would be very good (at 50ohm).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chet T16 on July 01, 2013, 06:10:26 pm
My DS2072 has arrived :clap: Can't even open the box until my wife gets home :(

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 06:23:49 pm
Another curious thing, look at the pictures.
Where is the difference?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 01, 2013, 06:40:31 pm
My DS2072 has arrived :clap: Can't even open the box until my wife gets home :(

What has your wife to do with it.., did she gave it as a present...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 01, 2013, 06:43:37 pm
Another curious thing, look at the pictures.
Where is the difference?

i dont get it, please more ext
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 01, 2013, 06:50:36 pm
I think this function changes how captured samples are mapped to pixels on the screen to minimize aliasing.  It doesn't change the way the signal is sampled. It works when scan rate is much slower than the sampling rate.  What did you expect this button to do?
Anti-aliasing never changes how the waveform is sampled. But you seem to be thinking about IMAGE anti-aliasing - I'm speaking about WAVEFORM anti-aliasing; which is what a DSO is supposed to do if it has an anti-aliasing feature (it has nothing to do with jagged edges, pixels, etc).

This post and the following one (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg252801/#msg252801) provide more information.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 06:54:46 pm
Another curious thing, look at the pictures.
Where is the difference?

i dont get it, please more ext

IMHO, the BW is lower in the DS2202, but little more I can say.  :)
I have a SDS8102V (real BW ~206MHz), when I have a DS2072 I will do more comparisons (DS2072 as DS2202).
What do you think?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 01, 2013, 07:07:35 pm
Another curious thing, look at the pictures.
Where is the difference?

i dont get it, please more ext

IMHO, the BW is lower in the DS2202, but little more I can say.  :)
I have a SDS8102V (real BW ~206MHz), when I have a DS2072 I will do more comparisons (DS2072 as DS2202).
What do you think?

I can not see on Agilent what the settings are...to compare

But what is lower then the 2202, to your opinion ?

See picture with a rise time of 1.5 nSec that is 350/1.5  is 233 Mhz,
what is also measured with a signal generator

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 07:16:22 pm
Another curious thing, look at the pictures.
Where is the difference?

i dont get it, please more ext

IMHO, the BW is lower in the DS2202, but little more I can say.  :)
I have a SDS8102V (real BW ~206MHz), when I have a DS2072 I will do more comparisons (DS2072 as DS2202).
What do you think?

I can not see on Agilent what the settings are...to compare

But what is lower then the 2202, to your opinion ?

See picture with a rise time of 1.5 nSec that is 350/1.5  is 233 Mhz,
what is also measured with a signal generator

The ridges (In the images above), should have higher frequency components that 233MHz.
It seems that these only be seen with more than 300MHz of BW.

My SDS8102V have a similar BW and I can make a better comparison.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 07:26:24 pm
Another curious thing, look at the pictures.
Where is the difference?
Yes , I see a picture of 500Mhz Agilent Scope
with a Label of OWON , what is your point??
You like bullshit!!

Oh no please do not misunderstand me. Respect please. I'm just saying what I think. Owon is not the best, but recognize that in the image above is nothing short, regarding BW.
Please understand that my native language is not English, so may that I am not express properly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 01, 2013, 07:51:43 pm
See picture with a rise time of 1.5 nSec that is 350/1.5  is 233 Mhz,
what is also measured with a signal generator

It is even better. Look at the picture, there rise time is 1.32 ns which gives BW = 350 / 1.32 = 265 MHz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 07:54:28 pm
See picture with a rise time of 1.5 nSec that is 350/1.5  is 233 Mhz,
what is also measured with a signal generator

It is even better. Look at the picture, there rise time is 1.32 ns which gives BW = 350 / 1.32 = 265 MHz.

Imagine doing the test (rise time) using this:
http://www.maxim-ic.com/an3699 (http://www.maxim-ic.com/an3699)
The result probably be closer to the oscilloscope real BW.

Thanks EV.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 01, 2013, 07:57:29 pm
I think this function changes how captured samples are mapped to pixels on the screen to minimize aliasing.  It doesn't change the way the signal is sampled. It works when scan rate is much slower than the sampling rate.  What did you expect this button to do?
Anti-aliasing never changes how the waveform is sampled. But you seem to be thinking about IMAGE anti-aliasing - I'm speaking about WAVEFORM anti-aliasing; which is what a DSO is supposed to do if it has an anti-aliasing feature (it has nothing to do with jagged edges, pixels, etc).

This post and the following one (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg252801/#msg252801) provide more information.

 Marmad, I understand what aliasing is.  I don't believe it's a bug or even annoyance if this option does not let you to measure a 1 MHz signal with 200 kSa/s ;)

You need to use a high enough sampling rate for the signal being measured and also make sure that any higher frequency components are cut off with a low pass filter.  There is no way around it.   

May be you are thinking of undersampling when you are actually interested in displaying aliased frequencies.  But this mode still requires proper analog filtering to work correctly..  I bet one cycle of free trial options that  IMAGE anti-aliasing is what Rigol had in mind and it's working as designed. :) 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 01, 2013, 08:14:28 pm
Marmad, I understand what aliasing is.  I don't believe it's a bug or even annoyance if this option does not let you to measure a 1 MHz signal with 200 kSa/s ;)
zibadun: Man, we've been talking about this for ages already here - it's not about measurement; it's about incorrect display. The point is - you shouldn't see a waveform of a lower frequency - you should see (what looks like) noise (see what the 1MHz waveform SHOULD look like at that time base).

And, BTW, it's not just about 1MHz @ 200kSa/s - it's ANY frequency at a slightly lower sample rate - it doesn't work at any level.

Quote
You need to use a high enough sampling rate for the signal being measured and also make sure that any higher frequency components are cut off with a low pass filter.  There is no way around it.
Of course there is - Agilent does it. It's actually fairly easy - there are papers written about it (linked in earlier posts in this thread). You just do random decimation from sampled data to display data (e.g. instead of displaying every Nth sample, you vary the decimation). So instead of seeing a FALSE lower frequency, you see NOISE.

Quote
I bet one cycle of free trial options that  IMAGE anti-aliasing is what Rigol had in mind and it's working as designed. :)
No - that's not what they had in mind - look at the manual excerpts. It's perhaps what the guy who coded it had in mind, but he FUCKED UP! It's a bug, mistake, or unimplemented feature - there is no way around that fact.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=53279)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=53281)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 01, 2013, 08:47:41 pm
Oh no please do not misunderstand me. Respect please. I'm just saying what I think. Owon is not the best, but recognize that in the image above is nothing short, regarding BW.
Please understand that my native language is not English, so may that I am not express properly.
@ Carrington
Yes sorry , and I apologize

 To be complete you could say you are comparing :

 A  Rigol     DS2072(hacked)   with 2.0 GSa/s  at  $800  200 Mhz
 A  Owon      SDS9302          with 3.2 Gsa/s  at $1500  300 Mhz
 An Agilent   DSO-X-3502A      with 4.0 GSa/s  at $8000  500 MHz


In fact, I took it for granted. Thank for your clarification.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 01, 2013, 09:39:45 pm

zibadun: Man, we've been talking about this for ages already here - it's not about measurement; it's about incorrect display. The point is - you shouldn't see a waveform of a lower frequency - you should see noise (see what the 1MHz waveform SHOULD look like at that time base).

...

Of course there is - Agilent does it. It's actually fairly easy - there are papers written about it (linked in earlier posts in this thread). You just do random decimation from sampled data to display data (e.g. instead of displaying every Nth sample, you vary the decimation). So instead of seeing a FALSE lower frequency, you see NOISE.


I saw the "random decimation" note.   You can  prevent aliasing from appearing on the lower resolution image but you can't remove aliases from the sampled waveform if you selected too low sampling rate for your signal. There is simply no data about what was happening in between the samples.  You can't look back and apply some algorithm that will turn aliases into noise and will leave "real" frequencies untouched. 

Here is what I can get this function to do.  Note false paterns removed by  the Antialiasing feature.    Sometimes it has the opposite effect and makes the picture worse. You just have to toggle on and off and use the one that looks better.   Now show me the Agilent 1 Mhz sampled with 200 khz rate and turning it into noise ;)


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 02, 2013, 12:13:46 am
I saw the "random decimation" note.   You can  prevent aliasing from appearing on the lower resolution image but you can't remove aliases from the sampled waveform if you selected too low sampling rate for your signal. There is simply no data about what was happening in between the samples.  You can't look back and apply some algorithm that will turn aliases into noise and will leave "real" frequencies untouched.

I can't believe you're still arguing this point. Anti-aliasing is a proven mathematical formula which works (if implemented correctly). Random decimation is equivalent to stochastic sampling:

"By sampling stochastically, there is no "Nyquist frequency" to talk about, so aliasing will no longer be a problem as before. However, this comes at a price. What you gain in anti-aliasing, you lose by noise in the system. The stochastic sampling introduces high-frequency noise, although for several applications (especially in imaging), aliasing is a much stronger nuisance than noise."

How well does it work? Well, the Agilent X-Series DSOs have anti-aliasing on ALL THE TIME - you can't even turn it off. Now I personally think you should have the ability to switch it off, since it can generate 'lumpy' looking waveforms when zooming in on slightly under-sampled waveforms (caused by the above-mentioned introduction of noise) - but the point is that it works to prevent aliasing. There is no question that it works - but Rigol HAVE NOT IMPLEMENTED IT CORRECTLY!

Here is what I can get this function to do.  Note false paterns removed by  the Antialiasing feature.    Sometimes it has the opposite effect and makes the picture worse. You just have to toggle on and off and use the one that looks better.

Sorry, this is not correctly implemented anti-aliasing. If you think it is, you don't understand the process.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 02, 2013, 12:47:08 am
Here is an effect of the signal input frequency passing through some sort of beating snyc with the a sample rate of at only 4 times the input
The DSO is Sampling at 2MSa/s
Anti-Aliasing ON

Note the input varies from 499.900 KHz to 500.002 KHz  SAwtooth Waveform
note the Frequency Counter in top Right

I find it interesting, and I will watch for it, as an error
I think this shows a fixed sample collection frequency and not a Random one

An excerpt from Agilent
---------------------------------------------------
Random decimation (see References)
Simple decimation (= regular sampling) is the most common decimation technique in
DSO’s and it is exceptionally prone to aliasing. However, the discarded samples can be
used to prevent the display of aliased waveform. The random sample selection prevents
an alias (or beat) frequency from developing by converting low frequency “spurs” to noise.
(For masochists only ? A. V. Balakrishnan: On the Problem of Time Jitter in Sampling,
IRE Trans. on Info. Theory, April 1962.)
With random decimation (= stochastic sampling) the resulting display is a fuzzy band much
like what would be seen on an analog scope.

However, this technique should be turned off for analysis that requires samples at exact regular time intervals.


Edit  UPDATE
  Setting Memory Depth to Auto in Last picture, all Good
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: g2 on July 02, 2013, 08:50:02 am
Hello
There is  a new firmware to Rigol DS2000:
DS2000(DSP)update_00.01.01.00.02.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 02, 2013, 10:06:39 am
Hello
There is  a new firmware to Rigol DS2000:
DS2000(DSP)update_00.01.01.00.02.

Thanks, g2!

The bug fixes/changes from new FW#01.01.00.02 are listed as folllows:

1. Optimized  the .csv file accuracy  in DC coupling.
2. Fixed the Uart decoding error when baud rate is 10400.
3. Fixed the crash when math advanced is “CH1==CH2”.
4. Fixed storage and recall waveform error in ROLL mode
5. Fixed trigger delay in 500uV/div
6. Added file name when printing screen
7. Fixed measure error when delete some measure items
8. Fixed trial license lost when do self-calibration
9. Optimized source setting for DS2000-S series
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 02, 2013, 10:27:41 am
See picture with a rise time of 1.5 nSec that is 350/1.5  is 233 Mhz,
what is also measured with a signal generator

It is even better. Look at the picture, there rise time is 1.32 ns which gives BW = 350 / 1.32 = 265 MHz.

That's hardly 10% to 90% rise time, more like 15% to 85% which will show a much shorter time and thus calculated bandwidth.
--
 Darryl

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 02, 2013, 10:54:39 am
Updated the bug list (download links for FW at the bottom of that post): (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

Struck out bugs #6, #12, and #13 which appear to have been fixed.
Anti-aliasing still does NOT anti-alias.

I haven't tested the RS-232 decoding issue yet. If someone else finds that it's been updated, let me know.


On another note, I love that Rigol continues the confusing reverse downward notation of the final version number digit - hopefully next version will end with .01 or .00  ;D
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 02, 2013, 11:09:37 am
That's hardly 10% to 90% rise time, more like 15% to 85% which will show a much shorter time and thus calculated bandwidth.
--
 Darryl

Are you telling that Rigol calculates the rise time in wrong way?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 02, 2013, 11:23:01 am
The bug fixes/changes from new FW#01.01.00.02 are listed as folllows:

Looks good, there are not many bugs anymore. I hope there are no new bugs!  :) :-+
I am not at home now, so I can not test it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on July 02, 2013, 11:26:39 am
Is it just me or is the "Project" tab a new one?  I can't remember that being there before, and it's got some weird stuff in it!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bambam on July 02, 2013, 11:33:50 am
I to have the project tab, but have no idea what it's for  :-//

@marmad have you found any changes to security with the new FW, ie have rigol closed the door on down grading FW, DSA9 keys etc with the all the recent revelations lately its got me curious.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 02, 2013, 11:39:10 am
Is it just me or is the "Project" tab a new one?  I can't remember that being there before, and it's got some weird stuff in it!

Project tab was always there when you entered F7-F6-F7-Utility key sequence for full version info.

@marmad have you found any changes to security with the new FW, ie have rigol closed the door on down grading FW, DSA9 keys etc with the all the recent revelations lately its got me curious.

I haven't checked any of that - I have official options, etc. so I'll leave it to others to test.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chet T16 on July 02, 2013, 11:55:20 am
Is there issues with playing around with these codes if you have options installed?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on July 02, 2013, 12:03:15 pm
Is it just me or is the "Project" tab a new one?  I can't remember that being there before, and it's got some weird stuff in it!

Project tab was always there when you entered F7-F6-F7-Utility key sequence for full version info.

I see, that's why it popped up.  My bad.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Harvs on July 02, 2013, 12:10:51 pm
I to have the project tab, but have no idea what it's for  :-//

@marmad have you found any changes to security with the new FW, ie have rigol closed the door on down grading FW, DSA9 keys etc with the all the recent revelations lately its got me curious.

DSA9 key appears to work exactly as before.
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 02, 2013, 12:58:48 pm
That's hardly 10% to 90% rise time, more like 15% to 85% which will show a much shorter time and thus calculated bandwidth.
--
 Darryl

Are you telling that Rigol calculates the rise time in wrong way?

Well if those cursors are auto placed, then I would say that's very poor placing.

Anyone else think the same ?


--
 Darryl

Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 02, 2013, 01:03:37 pm
That's hardly 10% to 90% rise time, more like 15% to 85% which will show a much shorter time and thus calculated bandwidth.
--
 Darryl

Are you telling that Rigol calculates the rise time in wrong way?

There in the picture is rise time from 20% to 80% measured with cursors as 840 ps.

Then rise time from 10% to 90 % can be calculated as Ln(9/1) / Ln(8/2) * 840 ps = 1331 ps = 1.331 ns, which is not far from by Rigol calculated value 1.32 ns.
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 02, 2013, 01:12:26 pm
Well if those cursors are auto placed, then I would say that's very poor placing.

Anyone else think the same ?

 Darryl

No, cursors are not placed automatically. They are for rise time from 20%to 80%, which is 840 ps. Look at the table on the upper left corner. Rise time from 10% to 90% is at the under left corner and it is 1.32 ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 02, 2013, 01:59:19 pm
Ahh yes, too quick looking at the picture and typing a reply. I see the delta x is not the rise time its measuring. Sorry my bad !


--
 Darryl

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 02, 2013, 02:00:51 pm
Reporting a Bug
At higher Frequencies
When in AC coupled Trigger mode the Counter does not display the Correct Frequency but the measurement displays correct.

When in DC coupled Trigger, the Counter is correct

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=53327)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=53329)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 02, 2013, 03:39:56 pm
Reporting a Bug
At higher Frequencies
When in AC coupled Trigger mode the Counter does not display the Correct Frequency but the measurement displays correct.

When in DC coupled Trigger, the Counter is correct

Is this bug with the new FW?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 02, 2013, 03:45:07 pm
Mine seems ok mate, I tried it at a few frequencies inc the 20MHz.. Both WITH and without the options mod. Can't go any higher than 20MHz at the moment though :(



And 20MHz.......




I think AUTO mode has packed-in again too in latest FW (02)  :--


It is in TRIGGER mode, you tested the AC-DC input, Teneyes mentioned the TRIGGER mode AC/DC
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 02, 2013, 03:46:16 pm
Reporting a Bug
At higher Frequencies
When in AC coupled Trigger mode the Counter does not display the Correct Frequency but the measurement displays correct.

When in DC coupled Trigger, the Counter is correct

Is this bug with the new FW?

It was also in the older FW, but never discovered...and again for the readers, AC in TRIGGER mode menu

I have the same behavior on my DSO... even worse, get a shake...
See the channel is on DC, the trigger is on AC
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 02, 2013, 03:48:30 pm
From the Rigol website , the latest FW versions

Here are the latest Firmware versions by Rigol product family as of July 1, 2013:


DS2000 FW-Version: 00.01.01.00.02
DS4000 FW-Version: 00.01.00.00.07
DS6000 FW-Version: 00.01.04
DSA815 FW-Version: 00.01.07
DSA1000 FW-Version: 00.01.16
DG4000 FW-Version: 00.01.06
DG5000 FW-Version: 01.01.08
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: gierig on July 02, 2013, 05:55:53 pm
Big thanks to marmad :-+.

good work on the Updates and infos & Tables and Stuff.

got my DS2102 since few days and for bug hunting and "hey support give me the Updates that i need"
that info was this very helpfuel  (i upgrade just from 60 Year old HP 140A  - 20MHZ )

Just upgrade to 01.01.00.02 and that solve the the bug above #3, #6, very Importet #13 for me.
Nice thing also i got still the 2202 Bandwidth settings as i use the nice DSA9 thing.



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 02, 2013, 06:17:26 pm
Big thanks to marmad :-+.

Wellcome to the forum! Have you already found this thread?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: gierig on July 02, 2013, 06:28:46 pm

Wellcome to the forum! Have you already found this thread?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/)

Thanks.
Yes, that the what i meaning with the Stuff  above. :-)
I use it to take Pictures more then to record, but i don't found any other tool with nearly this functions...


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on July 02, 2013, 09:45:34 pm
It is in TRIGGER mode, you tested the AC-DC input, Teneyes mentioned the TRIGGER mode AC/DC

Wim13.. I removed my scope capture images to avoid confusion on the thread. My results were indeed in the trigger mode AC/DC, although
apparently this 'bug' does not show up at the frequencies I was testing at (below 20MHz.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: poida_pie on July 03, 2013, 02:13:26 am
Hi all, just a FYI on the current situation for DS2072 stock here in AUS.
I bought maybe the last DS2072 from Emona yesterday, it arrived today.
I can't fault Emona for service, I would suggest anyone here gives them a go.
They say there is new stock arriving in two weeks.
My model shows:
f/w 00.01.00.00.03
h/w 1.0.1.0.0
with the trails installed as usual.

I would like to say THANK YOU to Marmad for his work in bringing to life a great community of users of this great instrument.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 03, 2013, 09:00:05 am
FW 00.01.01.00.02
A small Bug also associated with the Trigger setting of AC Coupling
Note  Wim13 has already reported that there is large Trigger Jitter when this mode is selected

I appears that also in this mode of AC coupled Trigger,
the Display of the waveform is NOT in the  correct position.
The waveform position is 50nSec to the left (early)
The offset in a fixed amount of time 50nSec

But when the trigger is DC coupling the Position is correct.at the center of the Display

In order to demonstrate,
the animated displays showing a frequency sweeping,
in order to better see where the Trigger point is
Trigger level =0.0
Trigger position should be at the Center

 
 1   DC coupling, NO offset
 2.  On  100ns/div the offset of 50nsec  is  1/2 div
 3.  On   50ns/div the offset of 50nsec  is  1  div
 4   On   20ns/div the offset of 50nsec  is  2 1/2 div
 

See next 3 posts

#1 On 100ns/div for DC coupling there is No offset
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 03, 2013, 09:20:20 am
  #2 On 100ns/div the offset of 50nsec = 1/2 div
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 03, 2013, 09:20:56 am
 #3 On  50ns/div the offset is 50nsec = 1 div
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 03, 2013, 09:21:54 am
  #4  On 20ns/div  offset  50nsec = 2 1/2 div
Note the 8-12nsec Jitter
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 03, 2013, 10:55:42 am
On  50ns/div the offset is 50nsec = 1 div horizontally

And Now with the Trigger level set at 200mV, 1 div Up
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 03, 2013, 05:41:16 pm
About the AC and DC trigger...


@Teneyes:
Connected to ch 2 the trigger output to see what happens to the trigger signal

The input signal on both pictures is the same, that did not change.
See also the change in the freq. counter..

Strange effect, on AC the trigger output become more stable, picture 1
and on DC the source signal is more stable, picture 2

This is very strange behavior...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 03, 2013, 06:42:48 pm
About the AC and DC trigger...
The input signal on both pictures is the same, that did not change.
See also the change in the freq. counter..
Strange effect, on AC the trigger output become more stable, picture 1
and on DC the source signal is more stable, picture 2
This is very strange behavior...

We already Know there is Jitter on the Trigger Output (and delay)
I am guessing: 
  In DC mode to make the Display stable and program is placing it correctly
  but allows the Trigger output to Vary

  In AC mode  the Display Has some  jitter and the Trigger output has some jitter,
  a different program
  I think, if you added the 2 jitter amounts of  the AC mode you we be close to the DC trigger out Jitter.  Maybe capture each single frame to check

Oh Oh, so if they Fix the DC trigger out Jitter we get Display Jitter
I hope it is not Hardware,
but it is Hi speed Interrupt program instruction timing to figure out

Oh Yes in AC the Counter is using the trigger, so if Trigger level is too high there is No Counter Freq.(<15)

PS if you notice the Blog is shorter, as I have deleted my BAD guesses and small talk


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 03, 2013, 07:15:55 pm

I hope it is not Hardware,


What?  :wtf:

Shortly after buying my SDS8102V was discovered the noise problem (HW).
And now that I've bought a DS2072 if it appears that also has a hardware fault then ...  :o :rant: |O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 03, 2013, 07:26:16 pm


Maybe hardware..we dont know ...and:

Well we are using these DSO for months now, and nobody has ever tried AC trigger mode ...

so it seems not to be a real problem...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 03, 2013, 07:48:31 pm
so it seems not to be a real problem...

It is a bug, but not very serious if not found earlier.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 03, 2013, 07:52:55 pm
How many hardware versions are up to date?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 03, 2013, 08:11:36 pm
Shortly after buying my SDS8102V was discovered the noise problem (HW).
And now that I've bought a DS2072 if it appears that also has a hardware fault then ...  :o :rant: |O

 ::) I hardly think it's the end of the world. My Tektronix analog scope doesn't even have coupling choices for the trigger - and I can't say I've ever used AC-coupling for the trigger on a DSO yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 03, 2013, 09:12:51 pm
Yes you're right, "I hardly think it's the end of the world."

Only I wish it was not a hardware failure.
If it is, do not want to jinx myself, but lately everything goes wrong.
Let us trust in the experience Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 03, 2013, 09:51:08 pm
If you're right, "I hardly think it's the end of the world."

Only I wish it was not a hardware failure.
If it is, do not want to jinx myself, but lately everything goes wrong.
Let us trust in the experience Rigol.

I've been using my DS2000 happily for over 8 months with absolutely zero regrets and only minor problems.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 04, 2013, 07:57:00 am
Anyone have an image of the input stage of a DS2072?
To compare with this (DS2202):
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022205124/#in/photostream/lightbox/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022205124/#in/photostream/lightbox/)

SMD Marking:
  6U -> MMBFJ309, N-Chanel RF Amplifier.
  3E -> MMBTH10, NPN RF.
  1B -> BC846, NPN.
  JY ->  BAV199, low leakage double diode.
  B7A -> AD8510

Would be very interesting see the frequency response until the input of the LMH6518. And a schematic of the entire input stage would also be great.




If there are "common desing HW" (inherited) between the DS2072 and DS1052E, then I want to believe that this failure is not due to hardware.  :)
http://elinux.org/images/c/c6/Das_oszi_schematic.pdf (http://elinux.org/images/c/c6/Das_oszi_schematic.pdf)



https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/120/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/120/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: checksum on July 04, 2013, 09:57:59 am
Hi,

I Just wanted to say hello.

I bought a DS1072 here in the UK and recived it a few days ago after a 5 weeks waiting for delivery. The rigol is my second scope, some time ago I bought an Owon SDS7102 but it has been next to useless because of the SDS7102 “ground noise” issue. Making the choice to invest again this time in a Rigol was made much easier by all of the great information posted here by Marmad and all of you and Dave’s video review. What a great resource this has been, a big thankyou to you all for taking the time to revew and report on DS2000. I’m extremely pleased with the Rigol, what a fantastic bit of kit  :-+

I’m interested to know how to reset option min counters (boy they seem to drop fast) if anyone would like to PM me but I’m happy to post more first if that makes folks more comfortable sharing this information.

The DS2072 was supplied with
Firmware 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware Version 1.0.1.0.0
FPGA
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05


Checksum.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chalky on July 04, 2013, 11:04:16 am
I’m interested to know how to reset option min counters (boy they seem to drop fast) if anyone would like to PM me but I’m happy to post more first if that makes folks more comfortable sharing this information.
I have a tool that you can run on Windows, it'll auto-scan both USB and LAN, and automatically push any licence keys you may have into the scopes that it finds.  I have no idea which licence keys you might own, or which ones out in the wild are legitimate trials etc. so I've left that part to you.  You'll need to add your licence keys into the config file.

This other thread is discussing licences, they might know which ones are legit.  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg256481/#msg256481 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg256481/#msg256481)

P.M. me, and I'll send you the app.  It's certainly rough & ready.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DD4DA on July 04, 2013, 11:15:20 am
I bought  an Rigol DS2202here in germany yesterday and tested them with the Rigol Ultravision Utilities V2.03  unter Windows 8 x64 with usage of the USB link instead the Ethernet, where is use in normal circumstance.
My UTD-4152c  (2GS/s @150Mhz 2 Channel) will be reselled next and is replaced reasoned by the missing of serial analysis- and LXI feature. This was a cheap scope two years ago and did a satisfied job this time. I had replaced them because i got the DSA815-TG last year and would joint them with usage of LXI feature - the capabilities of a common, documented and nearly open communicaton and data transfer protocol make the job quite easier for me. Well, the Rigol DS2202 got a nice wide screen to show a signal and the resolution of the screen makes it more readable. The I2C, SPI analysis looks great, even that a license need to be payed until the trial time ended. Advanced Trigger option and the deeper memory seems to be a nice feature too, but i don't know if i need that actually. Well, this is just a key-based option that could be installed anytime later, if required.
The released Hack's are nice to see, what's possible, but looks anyway unprofessional and you lost the warrenty of the device.
My messuring equipment are references and there values must be reliable - no space for experiments. The license fee for the options are not so expensive like them from HP, TEK or R&S. I got an offer for about € 188.- for the lic of each option - not an unfair price for that.I had checked some signals like an eye-diagram and this looks great on the screen. The decode feature if SPI looks also great - especialy for faster signals. Cheaper logic analyzer like them from Saelogic can't decode, if the electrical signal envelope is wrong.
The practical handling needs to be tested longer, so be patient.

Greetzs   
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 04, 2013, 08:28:00 pm
After reviewing several semiconductor datasheet of the input stage, and see how similar this is to "previous versions" (DS1000). It is very possible that if it (DS2000) do not use digital filtering of the signal to set the bandwidth, then maybe we could get without much difficulty A BW of 300/400MHz by SPI commands to the LMH6518. Assuming that the differential amplifier with adjustable gain is a "complete" version of the LMH6518.

Cheers :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on July 04, 2013, 09:58:36 pm
then maybe we could get without much difficulty A BW of 300/400MHz by SPI commands
Whatfor? The scope has not been calibrated for this. Maybe a 70Mhz scope was only calibrated for 70 Mhz so even 100 or 200Mhz measurements are not valid.
Usually you need a scope for measuring ... at least I would like to get a valid measurement. Data from uncalibrated devices are often not very useful.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on July 05, 2013, 03:56:08 am
Anyone have an image of the input stage of a DS2072?
To compare with this (DS2202):
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022205124/#in/photostream/lightbox/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022205124/#in/photostream/lightbox/)
I don't think I took any photos, but I did compare my DS2072 to Dave's photos and couldn't find any differences by eye.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 05, 2013, 06:31:45 am
Thank you very much ve7xen, then only to be confirmed the value of unmarked smd resistors and capacitors, to claim that they are identical.
Unfortunately these resistors may be the key.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 05, 2013, 08:32:52 am
Thank you very much ve7xen, then only to be confirmed the value of unmarked smd resistors and capacitors, to claim that they are identical.
Unfortunately these resistors may be the key.

The fact that the models are physically identical was already confirmed in this forum 9 months ago. This is old news.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 05, 2013, 12:16:32 pm
The fact that the models are physically identical was already confirmed in this forum 9 months ago. This is old news.

Obviously I did not know it.
Also was confirmed that the unmarked smd resistors and capacitors are identical?
Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 05, 2013, 01:33:46 pm
Obviously I did not know it.
Also was confirmed that the unmarked smd resistors and capacitors are identical?
Thanks

This is what was reported by a dealer of the DSO.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 05, 2013, 02:18:15 pm
Great  :)
  Marmad, you know if someone has tried to establish a BW of 300MHz by SPI command?
  And this BW was verified?
Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 05, 2013, 04:45:42 pm
Great  :)
  Marmad, you know if someone has tried to establish a BW of 300MHz by SPI command?
  And this BW was verified?
Thanks

If you look at the datsheet, you must see that for the 233 Mhz bandwidth of the 2202,
the 350 Mhz options is already used. The datasheet is showing a diagram measured on
the best possible situation. I dont think you can get more out of it.
The 200 Mhz line is to narrow for the 2202.

Also because the entry of the DS 2000 is made for 1 Mohm

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 05, 2013, 05:00:15 pm
Perhaps, and -3dB @ 233MHz is due to the combination of LMH6518 @ 350MHz and the response of the stages before the LMH6518.
In such case would interesting change the MMBFJ309, N-Chanel RF Amplifier, by another similar with better frequency response.
We only need sniff the SPI of the LMH6518 to check it. Has anyone done that yet?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 05, 2013, 05:10:36 pm
Perhaps, and -3dB @ 233MHz is due to the combination of LMH6518 @ 350MHz and the response of the stages before the LMH6518.
In such case would interesting change the MMBFJ309, N-Chanel RF Amplifier, by another similar with better frequency response.
We only need sniff the SPI of the LMH6518 to check it. Has anyone done that yet?

for what? when you wish to imporve something, draw first the schmatic of the inpustage, then do some simulations and THEN (and only then) check if something can be improved. Simply "replacing" something by what so ever wonder part will not imporve anything but probably make the whole frequency response worse.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 05, 2013, 05:13:46 pm
Hi tinhead!

I've also thought draw the schematic, but I do not know when I can do it.
And only with a picture (that is the only that I have for now) is complicated.

I think there are similarities with this:
http://elinux.org/images/c/c6/Das_oszi_schematic.pdf (http://elinux.org/images/c/c6/Das_oszi_schematic.pdf)
See Q01_1 at page 2, and other small changes to get 200MHz of BW.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on July 05, 2013, 06:11:48 pm
Hi all,

Is this a bug.....or is it just me intepreting the scope wrongly.?

DS2072 (FW v.01.00.00.03)

- Turn on both channels, probe a couple of different DC voltages.

- Whilst Ch.1 selected go to Vertical menu and select Vavg (yellow). Ch.1 Vavg is now displayed at bottom of screen in yellow.

- Select Ch.2 and go to Vertical menu and select Vavg (blue). Ch.2 is now displayed at bottom of screen in blue.......however, Ch.1 which is still yellow now reads same voltage as Ch.2.

I was looking to have Ch.1 & Ch.2 Vavg at bottom of screen. Whatever I do both the Vavg's at the bottom of the screen always read the same voltage.

PS. If use the DISPLAY ALL function under MEASURE both the V.avg's are displayed correctly in the pop-up.

Ian.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 05, 2013, 06:16:26 pm
Hi all,

Is this a bug.....or is it just me intepreting the scope wrongly.?

DS2072 (FW v.01.00.00.03)

- Turn on both channels, probe a couple of different DC voltages.

- Whilst Ch.1 selected go to Vertical menu and select Vavg (yellow). Ch.1 Vavg is now displayed at bottom of screen in yellow.

- Select Ch.2 and go to Vertical menu and select Vavg (blue). Ch.2 is now displayed at bottom of screen in blue.......however, Ch.1 which is still yellow now reads same voltage as Ch.2.

I was looking to have Ch.1 & Ch.2 Vavg at bottom of screen. Whatever I do both the Vavg's at the bottom of the screen always read the same voltage.

PS. If use the DISPLAY ALL function under MEASURE both the V.avg's are displayed correctly in the pop-up.

Ian.


Read the first post of this thread, all the bugs are listed....

And yes it was a bug, solved in the latest FW, you can download on the first page.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: IanJ on July 05, 2013, 06:22:11 pm

Read the first post of this thread, all the bugs are listed....

And yes it was a bug, solved in the latest FW, you can download on the first page.

I did.....must have missed it.

Cheers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 05, 2013, 08:18:23 pm
I think there are similarities with this:
...
See Q01_1 at page 2, and other small changes to get 200MHz of BW.

hehe, i know that schematic, i have drawn it.

Yes, they are similar, J-FET/NPN (MMBFJ309 / MMBTH10LT1) and two BC846B + AD8510.
However there is second MMBTH10LT1 in DS2000 series, as well the attenuator/compensation circuit is new.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 05, 2013, 08:32:35 pm
Yep!

Of course, and resistors unmarked too.
Someone has a broken DS 2000  :-BROKE ? Donate it to us please, we need one LOL.

PS: By the way very good job with the schematic tinhead.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Marc M. on July 06, 2013, 04:06:19 am
Good news everyone.  I received my DS-2072 from TEquipment today  8). 

The revisions as received were:
     Serial: DS2A151200xxx (under 500)
Soft Ver.: 00.00.01.00.05
Hard Ver.: 1.0.1.0.0
        SPU: 03.01.02
       WPU: 00.06.00
        CCU: 12.29.00
        MPU: 00.05

After doing some bandwidth and risetime tests, I tried to apply the keys to unlock bandwidth and options.  I got all the options turned on except for 200Mhz b/w.  The model # stayed 2072  >:(. I tried several times, first just the DSA9 key, then the DSAR followed by DSA9 keys but it still stayed a 2072  |O.  I tried updating the firmware to 01.01.00.02 then applied the DSAR & DSA9 keys.  Success!  This time everything including the 200 MHz b/w were unlocked  :clap:. Not sure why it wouldn't work prior to the FW update :-//

Using a Rohde & Schwarz SMS generator into a 50 ohm passthru, I did 2 simple plots of freq. vs mV thru 500 MHz before and after applying the keys.  The results tracked close to Wim13's results with a similar setup (post #1215 Pg. 82).

To check risetime, I used a Tek PG 502 pulse generator with a spec'd risetime of <= 1 nS feeding the DS2072 thru a Tek 50 ohm feedthru terminator.  Prior to applying the keys, I got a risetime of 2.5 nS.  After applying the keys, it dropped to 1.3 nS, also in line with other folks results IIRC.

Again, a huge thank you to Marmad, cybernet, teneyes, Wim13, and all the others that have contributed so much to the collective knowledge regarding these scopes :-+ :-+ :-+.

Marc -

   
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Marc M. on July 06, 2013, 04:51:59 am
...we could get without much difficulty A BW of 300/400MHz...
Whatfor? The scope has not been calibrated for this. Maybe a 70Mhz scope was only calibrated for 70 Mhz so even 100 or 200Mhz measurements are not valid...
Nonsense!  The hardware and firmware are identical between the 2072, 2102, and 2202 models.  The only difference between models is the entry of a key(s).  Many folks here have done exhaustive testing prior to and after applying these keys and have proven this to be fact.  I just received my 2072 today and have done some basic tests for myself all of which have tracked the others work just about perfectly.  If you go thru the couple of threads regarding the 2072, you can see some excellent plots done by Wim13 showing the vertical bandwidth past 400 MHz. 

One of the tests I performed that I haven't seen elsewhere was a test of the horizontal timebase accuracy.  Using a Tektronix TG-501 (checked against my Rubidium standard - spot on), I checked my 2072 horizontal timebase at several sweep speeds.  The max sweep frequency of the 2072 is 5 nS so we can assume it would be calibrated at that setting.  After applying the keys, the 2 nS speed is unlocked, so that would be questionable as to it's accuracy.  Here are 3 screenshots of the TG-501 feeding the unlocked DS2072 at 10,5, and 2 nS:
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/RatGuru/Rigol%20DS2072/TG-10nS_zps50875213.png) (http://s70.photobucket.com/user/RatGuru/media/Rigol%20DS2072/TG-10nS_zps50875213.png.html)
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/RatGuru/Rigol%20DS2072/TG-5nS_zps01760835.png) (http://s70.photobucket.com/user/RatGuru/media/Rigol%20DS2072/TG-5nS_zps01760835.png.html)
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/RatGuru/Rigol%20DS2072/TG-2nS_zps1fb4a54b.png) (http://s70.photobucket.com/user/RatGuru/media/Rigol%20DS2072/TG-2nS_zps1fb4a54b.png.html)

As you can see, all were pretty much spot on.  So any questions regarding the reduced accuracy of a unlocked DS-2072 vs a DS-2202 are baseless. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on July 06, 2013, 06:04:38 am
Has anyone else tried using the 'advanced' math functions and found them... strange? I was fooling around tonight and thought the integrate function wasn't doing what I wanted, so I fed in a pure sine wave into Intg(CH1) and got... oddness. It's vaguely sinusoidal, but with a changing offset and very small amplitude. The slant of it changes slowly with time as well, moving around randomly despite a stable trigger and clean input signal. Anyone know what's going on here - I'd expect a simple phase shift?

The Diff(CH1) is even weirder, in almost the opposite way. This one goes up to GU on the units and also looks like crap.

Are these functions intentionally not performing the Integral and Derivative functions I learned in calculus?

FWIW I'm running the latest firmware whatever .02.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jonese on July 06, 2013, 06:42:51 am
...we could get without much difficulty A BW of 300/400MHz...
Whatfor? The scope has not been calibrated for this. Maybe a 70Mhz scope was only calibrated for 70 Mhz so even 100 or 200Mhz measurements are not valid...
Nonsense!  The hardware and firmware are identical between the 2072, 2102, and 2202 models.  The only difference between models is the entry of a key(s).  Many folks here have done exhaustive testing prior to and after applying these keys and have proven this to be fact.  I just received my 2072 today and have done some basic tests for myself all of which have tracked the others work just about perfectly.  If you go thru the couple of threads regarding the 2072, you can see some excellent plots done by Wim13 showing the vertical bandwidth past 400 MHz. 

....

I think it's a bit too early to state that.  We have no knowledge that Rigol has calibrated a 2072 for anything higher than 70 MHz (we don't know what their process is in production).  Just because you can see stuff visually up to the -3db drop, doesn't mean it's accurate.

Perhaps if we had a dump of the calibration data table would shed some light on what parameters could be calibrated and if there are some parameters that only the 100/200 scopes would utilize.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on July 06, 2013, 07:08:04 am
I think it's a bit too early to state that.  We have no knowledge that Rigol has calibrated a 2072 for anything higher than 70 MHz (we don't know what their process is in production).  Just because you can see stuff visually up to the -3db drop, doesn't mean it's accurate.
If you're talking calibration constants, that's not a hardware difference...

If someone has measured a DS2072->DS2202 at reasonable intervals up to -3dB with an expected and linear curve, I think it is data enough to know it's not going to be meaningfully (way) out. Strictly yeah, you shouldn't trust it, but all signs point to the data being good anyway, and after all the experimenting done around here I'm fairly confident the frontends are identical. There may be additional calibration at the factory, but like buying used gear on eBay, it's more than good enough for almost any use you're going to encounter with a scope you hacked.

I wonder if the self-cal routine would null out any nonlinearities, if any did appear on these scopes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: poida_pie on July 06, 2013, 07:52:52 am
re: anti-aliasing having no effect.

I beg to differ. Try the FFT function, with and without AA.
It seems to limit something or other.
The attached images show a 1 MHz square wave, 1v p/p, on an unmodified DS2072. Signal from a Rigol DG1022, via 50 ohm termination.
Blackman windowing selected for the FFT.

Note how the FFT horizontal scale changes.
When AA off, lots of garbage about the main tones, and how when AA is on, the spectrum looks about right.

 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 06, 2013, 08:32:09 am
To help show the bandwidth
Below are 2 displays for a 4-40 MHZ frequency Sweep (exp)
  1st display is Capture of multiple frames in 3D format
  2nd display is same as above but with the BW Limit set to 20 MHz
  3rd display is Animation of every 200th frame  with the BW Limit set to 20 MHz

Notes:
    the 1st frame is with 2 cycles on display, so scan was fine adjusted to 36nsec/div
    the DS2072 set to show -0.8 to +0.8 Vdc
    the RUU program shows  -1.0 to +1.0 Vdc

My Generator only goes to 60MHz so , I am asking if somone with 500 MHz Generator could repeat this test to show higher frenquencies and maybe with the 100 MHz filter
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 06, 2013, 11:38:48 am
re: anti-aliasing having no effect.

I beg to differ. Try the FFT function, with and without AA.
It seems to limit something or other.

Great! It's good to know that it 'limits something or other'.  ;D  Seriously, this has been discussed ad nauseum - so, for hopefully the last time: anti-aliasing has (virtually) no effect on aliasing (as defined for a DSO) - which, judging by it's name, you might reasonably expect it to, you know, prevent.  :)

How to do it? It's not rocket science - over-sample, then randomly decimate for the 'required' sample speed = stochastic sampling. Done.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 06, 2013, 12:57:11 pm
Have noticed from videos of people ds2xx2 that all earlier shipments come with switchable x1 x10 probes. Some people mention 350MHz bandwidth. Well my scope came with x10 non selectable , rigol info sheet says 300MHz bandwidth. Now I've got other probes for accessing the 500uV setting, but who else has the x10 only probes ?


--
 Darryl

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on July 06, 2013, 05:09:43 pm
Have noticed from videos of people ds2xx2 that all earlier shipments come with switchable x1 x10 probes. Some people mention 350MHz bandwidth. Well my scope came with x10 non selectable , rigol info sheet says 300MHz bandwidth. Now I've got other probes for accessing the 500uV setting, but who else has the x10 only probes ?


--
 Darryl

 
My 2202 came with the x1-x10 switchable 350MHz probe model RP3300. What is the model # of yours?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 06, 2013, 05:27:11 pm
Have noticed from videos of people ds2xx2 that all earlier shipments come with switchable x1 x10 probes. Some people mention 350MHz bandwidth. Well my scope came with x10 non selectable , rigol info sheet says 300MHz bandwidth. Now I've got other probes for accessing the 500uV setting, but who else has the x10 only probes ?

The RP3300 x1/x10 switchable probes have been the standard included probes for the DS2000 series since they first started selling them. Where did you buy your DSO?

This is from the DS2000 User Manual:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=53792)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 06, 2013, 09:08:01 pm
Hi!

I found a new bug while programming this here: http://www.xyphro.de/blog/index.php?entry=entry130705-223439 (http://www.xyphro.de/blog/index.php?entry=entry130705-223439)

The DS2072 does not accept an INITIATE_CLEAR class command over the USB interface. This command is a required command according to the USBTMC specification. The Scope does not react at all to it, and the USB transfer times out.

Other USBTMC instruments like DS1052, Siglent SDG1020 respond well to this command.

Another thing I noticed - maybe already known and not a bug.
In 500uV/DIV mode, the scope is internally set to 1mV/DIV and the data scaled by a factor of 2. This can be noticed when reading out the waveform data. The LSB is always 0. This effectively reduces the ADC resolution by 1 bit / dynamic range.

Best regards,

Kai
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on July 06, 2013, 09:38:18 pm
I tried several times, first just the DSA9 key, then the DSAR followed by DSA9 keys but it still stayed a 2072

Is there a purpose in loading the DSAR first, then DSA9 second?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 06, 2013, 09:54:20 pm
Another thing I noticed - maybe already known and not a bug.
In 500uV/DIV mode, the scope is internally set to 1mV/DIV and the data scaled by a factor of 2. This can be noticed when reading out the waveform data. The LSB is always 0. This effectively reduces the ADC resolution by 1 bit / dynamic range.

The 500uV setting is NOT a scaled setting (manufacturers list this in the specs if it is - such as the Agilent X-Series) - but I'm not sure why the LSB is always 0 when you look at the display memory. In any case, it's not important - since it only has to do with the DSO screen - and the sample memory contains the real data, including the LSB.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 06, 2013, 10:02:39 pm

Are you sure?
I can also clearly see on the screen, that the signal is scaled. The steps are clearly visible and larger as compared to e.g. 1mV/DIV.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 06, 2013, 10:19:36 pm
Are you sure?
I can also clearly see on the screen, that the signal is scaled. The steps are clearly visible and larger as compared to e.g. 1mV/DIV.

I'm not sure what that proves. Depending on the signal, the steps can be clearly visible - and look similar to what you posted - at any vertical setting. Rigol made a big deal advertising the 'true' 500uV setting of this DSO - and while there's many things I dislike about the company - I've never experienced them lying about their specifications.

As I mentioned, you're correct when you say the LSB is 0 when you read DISPLAY memory when set to the 500uV/div setting - but when you read SAMPLE memory, the LSB is 0 or 1 - I just tested it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 06, 2013, 10:30:24 pm
Another thing I noticed - maybe already known and not a bug.
In 500uV/DIV mode, the scope is internally set to 1mV/DIV and the data scaled by a factor of 2. This can be noticed when reading out the waveform data. The LSB is always 0. This effectively reduces the ADC resolution by 1 bit / dynamic range.
@Xyphro
Did you test this on your DS2000?
What version of Firmware was this bug?
as a bug dealing with 500uV scale was fix in the latest firmware.

But with  full scale being -2.5 mV to +2.5mV
and a noise floor of  about 400uv un-filtered and Not Averaged  I think 7 bit resolution is good

Below is a Sweep of 4-40MHZ at 5mVpp on the 500uV/div scale , the traces are noisy but Good
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 06, 2013, 10:32:25 pm
The signal was an analog one and the slope is slow at some positions. I doubt it is the signal source being responsible for this discrete steps in this case.

So it looks they have a bug showing the trace correctly in 500uv/div setting in case the sample memory shows the correct lsb.

If the spec says true 500uv/div support it is actually wrong due to this bug, because the main purpose should be in most cases to look at the trace on the screen.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 06, 2013, 10:34:52 pm
It was the very latest firmware version which appeared just some days ago. Currently I'm not close to my scope, so I cannot check it now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 06, 2013, 10:37:32 pm
I agree, it is not a serious issue :-)
Just a funny fact.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 06, 2013, 11:00:20 pm
If the spec says true 500uv/div support it is actually wrong due to this bug, because the main purpose should be in most cases to look at the trace on the screen.

Sorry, this is NOT a bug. It just has to do with sample -> display scaling. As I mentioned before, the data in display memory is heavily manipulated - via decimation, interpolation (if on) and display scaling (the display is 400 pixels high - so ALL sample data is scaled for the display height). If you set the vertical scale to 550uV/div, you again have LSBs with 0 and 1 in display memory.

I repeat: THIS IS NOT A BUG.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 07, 2013, 02:11:54 am
I agree, it is not a serious issue :-)
Just a funny fact.
Just a specific setting on the Scope


Check out this display in DOTS , Lots of resolution here
A Capture of the change of frequency from 2.2Mhz up to 52.2 MHz (manually )
with persistance set to 10 sec ,then freeze with a "Stop"
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=53831)
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 07, 2013, 04:19:06 am


How to do it? It's not rocket science - over-sample, then randomly decimate for the 'required' sample speed = stochastic sampling. Done.

If it's so simple why don't you implement it in RUU marmad?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chalky on July 07, 2013, 05:56:14 am
I found a new bug while programming this here: http://www.xyphro.de/blog/index.php?entry=entry130705-223439 (http://www.xyphro.de/blog/index.php?entry=entry130705-223439)

The DS2072 does not accept an INITIATE_CLEAR class command over the USB interface. This command is a required command according to the USBTMC specification. The Scope does not react at all to it, and the USB transfer times out.
Yeah also doesn't implement some of the LXI 1.3 stuff over TCP/IP, such as 10.2 rule get XML ID document via '<hostname>/lxi/identification'
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 11:17:45 am
If it's so simple why don't you implement it in RUU marmad?

There's no way I could get sample data fast enough from the DSO to do it in real time. I could do it slowly - but what good would that be?

Anti-alias is ideally something you want to have while probing unknown signals at slower horizontal speeds - but once you figure out what you're looking at and adjust your settings accordingly - it becomes a bit irrelevant. But it's something that needs to take place between the sampling and the display of the data - and so even though the basic implementation (in terms of math) is not complex - it DOES have it be done quickly.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 07, 2013, 12:52:03 pm
If it's so simple why don't you implement it in RUU marmad?

There's no way I could get sample data fast enough from the DSO to do it in real time. I could do it slowly - but what good would that be?

Anti-alias is ideally something you want to have while probing unknown signals at slower horizontal speeds - but once you figure out what you're looking at and adjust your settings accordingly - it becomes a bit irrelevant. But it's something that needs to take place between the sampling and the display of the data - and so even thought the basic implementation (in terms of math) is not complex - it DOES have it be done quickly.

If RUU is fast enough to render 3d it should be fast enough to draw "anti-alias". You can do it on a stored waveform, as a proof of concept.   A picture worth a thousand words in this case ;)
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 07, 2013, 01:15:54 pm
Have noticed from videos of people ds2xx2 that all earlier shipments come with switchable x1 x10 probes. Some people mention 350MHz bandwidth. Well my scope came with x10 non selectable , rigol info sheet says 300MHz bandwidth. Now I've got other probes for accessing the 500uV setting, but who else has the x10 only probes ?

The RP3300 x1/x10 switchable probes have been the standard included probes for the DS2000 series since they first started selling them. Where did you buy your DSO?

This is from the DS2000 User Manual:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=53792)

I'm away from my scope at the moment, but the sheet tucked into each probe matched the actual probe. Ie no mention of a x1 position or switch. I'm 99% sure they are listed as RP3300.
Will post the pic tonight / tomorrow. Its a new scope bought from rigol-uk. Otherwise known as telonic instruments.

--
 Darryl

Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jc101 on July 07, 2013, 01:43:04 pm

I'm away from my scope at the moment, but the sheet tucked into each probe matched the actual probe. Ie no mention of a x1 position or switch. I'm 99% sure they are listed as RP3300.
Will post the pic tonight / tomorrow. Its a new scope bought from rigol-uk. Otherwise known as telonic instruments.

--
 Darryl

My DS2072 also came from Telonic, and did come with the RP3300 probes which are 1/10 switchable.  Although, on one of the two supplied the switch would not budge at all, it was stuck on x1.  After an e-mail to telonic they simply swapped it.  I got mine early April after an extended delay from order to delivery of 3 working days  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 07, 2013, 02:19:26 pm

The Firmware version is 00.01.01.00.02.

I made some tests.

I'm very confident, that the 500uV mode is a scaled mode and the gain in the analog path is the same as for the 1mV/DIV setting.

What I did:
I injected a 10 MHz signal from a signal generator with -50dBm (@50Ohm Termination) , set the scope to 200ns/DIV, max. sampledepth.

Then I made 2 measurements:
1.) 500uV/DIV => Single shot => saved CSV Data as 'Newfile1__500uv.csv'
2.) 100uV/DIV => Single shot => saved CSV Data as 'Newfile1__1000uv.csv'

Then I used this sample Matlab script to calculate a Histogram and check how many discrete values were actually used:

Code: [Select]
sig500uv  = dlmread('Newfile1__500uv.csv', ',', 2, 0);
sig1000uv = dlmread('Newfile1__1000uv.csv', ',', 2, 0);

sig500uv  = sig500uv(:,2);
sig1000uv = sig1000uv(:,2);

hist500uv = hist(sig500uv, 10000);
hist1000uv = hist(sig1000uv, 10000);

c500uv = find(hist500uv > 0);
c1000uv = find(hist1000uv > 0);

c500uv = length(c500uv)
c1000uv = length(c1000uv)

c500uv was in my case 72 and
c1000uv was 73

With a real *2 Gain in the analog path you c500uV would be twice as high as c1000uV.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 02:42:21 pm
If RUU is fast enough to render 3d it should be fast enough to draw "anti-alias". You can do it on a stored waveform, as a proof of concept.   A picture worth a thousand words in this case ;)

The math data on how to do it is readily available online - and used (at the very least) in the Agilent X-Series. Exactly what am I trying to prove and to whom?  ???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 07, 2013, 02:54:25 pm
Teneyes: i tried the same, but get to see discrete steps (blank lines) on my scope.
Which fw version do you use? Mine is listed in the previous posting.
Maybe this is a new "feature" of my version?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 03:15:39 pm
I'm very confident, that the 500uV mode is a scaled mode and the gain in the analog path is the same as for the 1mV/DIV setting.

So send an email to Rigol and get their response.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 07, 2013, 03:20:39 pm
Teneyes: i tried the same, but get to see discrete steps (blank lines) on my scope.
Which fw version do you use? Mine is listed in the previous posting.
Maybe this is a new "feature" of my version?


I have also a kind of interlaced screen only on 500 uV see pictures below, 500 uV and 1 mV
Both had same input on both pictures. on 1 mV the screen is not interlaced.

i dont get this picture of Tenyes on 500 uV. stays interlaced on dots.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 07, 2013, 05:22:53 pm
If RUU is fast enough to render 3d it should be fast enough to draw "anti-alias". You can do it on a stored waveform, as a proof of concept.   A picture worth a thousand words in this case ;)

The math data on how to do it is readily available online - and used (at the very least) in the Agilent X-Series. Exactly what am I trying to prove and to whom?  ???

Agilent does this by first estimating the highest frequency component in the measured signal and then selecting a sampling rate which is fast enough to prevent aliasing.  The captured samples are displayed using a technique you describe to avoid moire patterns on the screen.  Rigol does the same thing more or less.  I uploaded an example of this which you simply dismissed ;) 

If you override scope settings and force 200 ksps on a 1 Mhz signal no algorithm will be able display noise instead of the aliased signal.  In fact sampling 1 MHz @200 ksps would give you a 0 Hz aliased signal, i.e. a DC offset :)     

I think you are confusing two different issues, interference patterns on the screen and RF aliasing. The latter cannot be fixed by algorithms.   If you believe otherwise write a function that shows you are correct. 

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 05:59:31 pm
Agilent does this by first estimating the highest frequency component in the measured signal and then selecting a sampling rate which is fast enough to prevent aliasing.  The captured samples are displayed using a technique you describe to avoid moire patterns on the screen.  Rigol does the same thing more or less.  I uploaded an example of this which you simply dismissed ;)

If you override scope settings and force 200 ksps on a 1 Mhz signal no algorithm will be able display noise instead of the aliased signal.  In fact sampling 1 MHz @200 ksps would give you a 0 Hz aliased signal, i.e. a DC offset :)     

I think you are confusing two different issues, interference patterns on the screen and RF aliasing. The latter cannot be fixed by algorithms.   If you believe otherwise write a function that shows you are correct.

Sorry, man, but I think you're the one who is confused.  ;)  Both about what Agilent is doing - and about what I've been talking about. And NO, the Rigol is NOT doing the same thing as the Agilent - the problem is that the Rigol has user-selectable sample lengths - the Agilent does not. And it seems Rigol didn't figure out an elegant way to deal with this (e.g. forcing the sample length to a specific size).

The Agilent X-Series doesn't 'select a sampling rate' at all - it always samples at the same speed: e.g. 2GSa/s (in the case of the 2000X) - and just varies how many samples it decimates based on the horizontal scale. I NEVER said that the Rigol could anti-alias a 1MHz signal by just sampling at 200kSa/s - I only used the image as an example of the Rigol not performing anti-aliasing. But you can show the exact same failure of the Rigol using any signal (like the attached image of an aliasing 100kHz sine @ 100kSa/s with ANTI-ALIASING turned on).

What should happen when you turn on anti-aliasing? The Rigol should be over-sampling (e.g. 2GSa/s) and randomly decimate to simulate 100kSa/s (or whatever your fixed rate should be) - just like the Agilent. Again - I don't need to write any function to see how it would work because I understand the math - if you don't, sorry, but it's not my problem.  :)


If you don't think it's possible, you should be getting an Agilent owner to prove me wrong. For example:
@Hydrawerk - can you please demonstrate? For example, send a 100kHz sine into the DSO - and adjust the horizontal scale until the sampling rate shows 100kSa/s - then grab a screen shot and post it here?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 07, 2013, 07:02:41 pm
I'm very confident, that the 500uV mode is a scaled mode and the gain in the analog path is the same as for the 1mV/DIV setting.

So send an email to Rigol and get their response.

I do, but do you really expect any response from them?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 07:08:11 pm
I do, but do you really expect any response from them?

Sure, why not? I've had them fix bugs I've reported to them - so I would imagine they could clarify this issue for you.

Edit: Although, I'd probably ask my dealer to ask Rigol - rather than emailing them directly: the dealers can often get questions answered more quickly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 07, 2013, 08:06:09 pm

Here the histograms of a -50dBM / 50Ohm sinusodial signal with 500uV and 1000uV setting just for reference => nearly same amount of discrete values, while it should be twice as much at 500uV, if it would be "TRUE 500uV" with scaling applied in analog domain.

FW Version 00.01.01.00.02.

WIM13 / Teneyes, can you post your FW versions?
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 07, 2013, 09:18:28 pm
Have noticed from videos of people ds2xx2 that all earlier shipments come with switchable x1 x10 probes. Some people mention 350MHz bandwidth. Well my scope came with x10 non selectable , rigol info sheet says 300MHz bandwidth. Now I've got other probes for accessing the 500uV setting, but who else has the x10 only probes ?

The RP3300 x1/x10 switchable probes have been the standard included probes for the DS2000 series since they first started selling them. Where did you buy your DSO?

This is from the DS2000 User Manual:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=53792)

I'm away from my scope at the moment, but the sheet tucked into each probe matched the actual probe. Ie no mention of a x1 position or switch. I'm 99% sure they are listed as RP3300.
Will post the pic tonight / tomorrow. Its a new scope bought from rigol-uk. Otherwise known as telonic instruments.

--
 Darryl

Well they are listed as RP3300A.


--
 Darryl

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 07, 2013, 09:24:14 pm
So the manual is dated mar 2012 and says RP3300A. The spec sheet says fixed x10.

So hmm, not much can do. The rigol packing sheet says rp3300a x2 .
I wonder if rigol will stop advertising the 500uV unless they put an asterisk, and say with optional probe. !


--
 Darryl

Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 09:34:29 pm
Well they are listed as RP3300A.

I can't even find an RP3300A probe listed anywhere online - it's like a cheaper version of the RP3300 that they've produced specifically to include with the DSO. Kind of sucks for you, man.  :(

Perhaps they had it planned from the beginning - but didn't start producing them until later - so had to include the more expensive RP3300; I've no idea. But the online datasheet  (http://www.rigolna.com/download/501G00000001PJyIAM/)(from June 2012) lists the standard probe as RP3300 - and so does the User Manual (http://www.rigolna.com/download/501G00000001PKXIA2/) (May 2012). So it might be you have a very early model.

Edit: What was your calibration date?
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 07, 2013, 09:46:32 pm
Well they are listed as RP3300A.

I can't even find an RP3300A probe listed anywhere online - it's like a cheaper version of the RP3300 that they've produced specifically to include with the DSO. Kind of sucks for you, man.  :(

Perhaps they had it planned from the beginning - but didn't start producing them until later - so had to include the more expensive RP3300; I've no idea. But the online datasheet  (http://www.rigolna.com/download/501G00000001PJyIAM/)(from June 2012) lists the standard probe as RP3300 - and so does the User Manual (May 2012). So it might be you have a very early model.

Edit: What was your calibration date?

its a very new model.

dated 4th June 2013

the manual, has a satin feel to the outside cover... and I can only see my single set of finger prints on it...  I'd bet the manual had never been opened before,  the glued edge, hasn't had a crease to it yet.

and the english half of the manual, definitely says Mar 2012 .... of course cant read the other half ;-)
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 09:50:41 pm
its a very new model.

dated 4th June 2013

the manual, has a satin feel to the outside cover... and I can only see my single set of finger prints on it...  I'd bet the manual had never been opened before,  the glued edge, hasn't had a crease to it yet.

and the english half of the manual, definitely says Mar 2012 .... of course cant read the other half ;-)

You can always demand the RP3300 probes - saying that you read the probe specs in the online material before you bought it. Those materials post-date the manual.
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on July 07, 2013, 09:55:29 pm
You can always demand the RP3300 probes - saying that you read the probe specs in the online material before you bought it. Those materials post-date the manual.

I agree - this is exactly what I would do.
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 09:56:39 pm
and the english half of the manual, definitely says Mar 2012 .... of course cant read the other half ;-)

Look at all the materials - and the dates - at Rigol's main site (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/). They ALL list the RP3300 (even the RP3300 User's Guide!) - so if I were you, I would demand an exchange.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 07, 2013, 10:04:02 pm
the problem is that the Rigol has user-selectable sample lengths - the Agilent does not. And it seems Rigol didn't figure out an elegant way to deal with this (e.g. forcing the sample length to a specific size).

So the issue here is that Rigol gave you enough rope to hang yourself?  While Agilent thought the user does not know any better and picked the "correct" sample rate for you :)


If you don't think it's possible, you should be getting an Agilent owner to prove me wrong. For example:
@Hydrawerk - can you please demonstrate? For example, send a 100kHz sine into the DSO - and adjust the horizontal scale until the sampling rate shows 100kSa/s - then grab a screen shot and post it here?

Ok . I'm curious what Agilent will show for 100 khz signal sampled at 100 ksps, at 10ms time base. but sounds like this picture will not be possible to obtain (since Agilent does not allow use override ).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 07, 2013, 10:30:12 pm
So the issue here is that Rigol gave you enough rope to hang yourself?  While Agilent thought the user does not know any better and picked the "correct" sample rate for you :)

???  I'm not sure you're completely getting it. In general, there is no difference between, for example, sampling at 2GSa/s and keeping every 10th sample - or reducing the clock to the ADC and sampling at 200MSa/s - they are identical when doing NORMAL sampling.

But for anti-aliasing purposes - which is a very specific need (I don't give a shit about anti-aliasing much of the time, such as when I'm using faster time base settings or close to the full sample rate) - then there is an advantage to oversampling and decimating, because you can vary the sample you keep - thus achieving random decimation and STOCHASTIC sampling.

I want the Rigol to operate exactly as it does now - unless I turn on Anti-Aliasing - at which point I want it to do 'real' anti-aliasing with stochastic sampling.  :D

Quote
Ok . I'm curious what Agilent will show for 100 khz signal sampled at 100 ksps, at 10ms time base. but sounds like this picture will not be possible to obtain (since Agilent does not allow use override ).

It has nothing to do with overriding - you just reduce the timebase until the Agilent gives you 100kSa/s.

Edit: The problem with the Agilent X2000/3000 series' is that you can't turn OFF anti-aliasing -so while it works perfectly for eliminating the aforementioned aliasing, it also makes waveforms look 'lumpy' (due to the random decimation) when you 'zoom' in on frequencies that aren't represented with many samples (as in attached image). BTW, the 100kHz signal sampled at 100kSa/s on the Agilent should look exactly like the image (unzoomed upper portion).

So ideally, you want to be able to turn on anti-aliasing when probing unknown signals at slower sample rates - then turn it off when you've settled on the correct time base for the signal.  :)
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on July 07, 2013, 11:11:31 pm
Well they are listed as RP3300A.

I can't even find an RP3300A probe listed anywhere online - it's like a cheaper version of the RP3300 that they've produced specifically to include with the DSO. Kind of sucks for you, man.  :(

Perhaps they had it planned from the beginning - but didn't start producing them until later - so had to include the more expensive RP3300; I've no idea. But the online datasheet  (http://www.rigolna.com/download/501G00000001PJyIAM/)(from June 2012) lists the standard probe as RP3300 - and so does the User Manual (May 2012). So it might be you have a very early model.

Edit: What was your calibration date?

its a very new model.

dated 4th June 2013

the manual, has a satin feel to the outside cover... and I can only see my single set of finger prints on it...  I'd bet the manual had never been opened before,  the glued edge, hasn't had a crease to it yet.

and the english half of the manual, definitely says Mar 2012 .... of course cant read the other half ;-)

 
With respect to Rigol manufacture dates, I have read this somewhere. In checking the 5 different Rigol instruments that have been in my hands this seems to hold true. For example: serial # DS2A1436xxxxx. The 14 represents 2012 ( the 14th year Rigol has been in existence). This agrees with their website stating they were established in 1998.  http://us.rigol.com/html/about/history.shtml (http://us.rigol.com/html/about/history.shtml)
The 36 represents the 36th week of 2012.
RigolNA also told me that a while ago, some units were sent back to be reworked. I received a 4022 that had been reworked but still was supplied with the pre-rework cal certificate. At turn-on, the menus were set for Chinese. I'm not sure if any of the 2000 series were reworked.
 
Hope this helps,
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 08, 2013, 12:13:00 am
Well they are listed as RP3300A.

I can't even find an RP3300A probe listed anywhere online - it's like a cheaper version of the RP3300 that they've produced specifically to include with the DSO. Kind of sucks for you, man.  :(

Perhaps they had it planned from the beginning - but didn't start producing them until later - so had to include the more expensive RP3300; I've no idea. But the online datasheet  (http://www.rigolna.com/download/501G00000001PJyIAM/)(from June 2012) lists the standard probe as RP3300 - and so does the User Manual (May 2012). So it might be you have a very early model.

Edit: What was your calibration date?

its a very new model.

dated 4th June 2013

the manual, has a satin feel to the outside cover... and I can only see my single set of finger prints on it...  I'd bet the manual had never been opened before,  the glued edge, hasn't had a crease to it yet.

and the english half of the manual, definitely says Mar 2012 .... of course cant read the other half ;-)

 
With respect to Rigol manufacture dates, I have read this somewhere. In checking the 5 different Rigol instruments that have been in my hands this seems to hold true. For example: serial # DS2A1436xxxxx. The 14 represents 2012 ( the 14th year Rigol has been in existence). This agrees with their website stating they were established in 1998.  http://us.rigol.com/html/about/history.shtml (http://us.rigol.com/html/about/history.shtml)
The 36 represents the 36th week of 2012.
RigolNA also told me that a while ago, some units were sent back to be reworked. I received a 4022 that had been reworked but still was supplied with the pre-rework cal certificate. At turn-on, the menus were set for Chinese. I'm not sure if any of the 2000 series were reworked.
 
Hope this helps,

my serial starts DS2A152101...  so thats like may 2013, about right i'd say for a 4th june 2013 assembled and tested ready to go.

--
 Darryl

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 08, 2013, 07:52:11 am
@Xyphro
The DS2000 does have display programs that cause a skip in resolution .
Below I show dots patterns on the 500uV/div scale , with just noise
I did capture 5 traces of dots, by setting Trigger level away from the noise ,so no triggers
set for SINGLE
and did 'FORCE' trigger to collect traces of dots on the display with infinite presistance

There are black bands on the vertical resolution between 2 rows of dot Data.

displays
5 traces of dots
multiple traces of dots
Auto on traces of Dots

Counting the rows , the display show 25 rows of dots/div 
with 8 divisions vertically, means 200 discrete values can be displayed
We know the rest of the 256 values are above and below what is displayed
 256 values is 8 bits, but how they get there is internal,

The steps you often see are the jumps across the black bands of the 400 Pixel LCD Display
resolution.,
The DSO uses all the 400 pixels to connect between dots (best algorithm )
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 08, 2013, 08:33:14 am

Thanks, Teneyes, lucky to see that you also have blank lines.

That there are blank lines is not really an issue, I think we are all on the same level of understanding. The ADC generates 256 steps and the display is 480 pixels high (minus some pixels for top and bottom bar).
The procedure which lies between sample data and display data reshapes the data (interpolation / Decimation / ...) and pixels might not translate back 1:1 to ADC values, so depending on the level of interpolation/decimation, in between values can be shown on the display.

But it is funny to see that this lead to the discovery that the 500uV mode is in fact no "true" 500uV mode and only a digitally scaled 1mV version.
They could also offer a 250uV or 125uV setting with this method.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 08, 2013, 09:43:27 am
But it is funny to see that this lead to the discovery that the 500uV mode is in fact no "true" 500uV mode and only a digitally scaled 1mV version.
They could also offer a 250uV or 125uV setting with this method.

While it's completely possible that 500uV is scaled from 1mV, I don't understand why Rigol wouldn't list this in the specs - just as Agilent does for the X-Series: "** 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div is a magnification of 4 mV/div setting."

But since I don't have a clue as to how the Rigol handles gain at that setting, I'm afraid you just counting discrete values of different files is not, for me, definitive proof - just as you posting that the LSB of display memory data was always 0 wasn't definitive proof either.

I'll admit that the evidence seems to point in that direction - but since I'm certain Rigol won't lie about the specifications, I'll wait to hear what their response is before I assume that this is fact.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 08, 2013, 09:58:06 am
@marmad:
It can still be a problem of the CSV data export within the scope, but if this would not be the case, I have no another explanation for the same amount of values in histogram.
It's also a question if not mentioning something is really lying...

I did another test by setting the amplitude of my signal generator to a value that I just get clipping in the values of the CSV file @ 1mV/DIV setting. When capturing at 500uV/DIV I get the same amount of clipping.

What would be a proof for you?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 08, 2013, 10:05:52 am
@marmad:
It can still be a problem of the CSV data export within the scope, but if this would not be the case, I have no another explanation for the same amount of values in histogram.
It's also a question if not mentioning something is really lying :-)

Well, it probably can't be technically classified as lying  ;) - but Rigol (as opposed to other Chinese manufacturers) has always seemed to be straightforward with their specifications; following accepted practices. If you look around at specs of DSOs which use scaling for lower vertical settings, I think it's a generally accepted practice to make a note of it in the specs.

I've also emailed my dealer about it. He's an expert Rigol technician - so either he'll know, or he'll get the answer from Rigol.

What would be a proof for you?

Well, I assume you're probably right - but I want to hear Rigol's response. I'm sure they won't lie about it when asked - since it could cause trouble for them if they did.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 08, 2013, 03:40:05 pm
The procedure which lies between sample data and display data reshapes the data (interpolation / Decimation / ...) and pixels might not translate back 1:1 to ADC values, so depending on the level of interpolation/decimation, in between values can be shown on the display.
Yes , The DSO can interpolate extra data point between 7 Bit data samples to create data  values for the Display.
But, I wonder why I see 8 bits in the Waveform data file witch is before the display program handler
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 08, 2013, 04:05:44 pm
SO, I generated a ramp to test the 500uv & 1mV resolutions and see what the output to the CSV File is like. 
Below are the pix
  1 DSO display

  2 A section of Excel csv file from 1mV/div, with added columns for:
                           Fix Point Format (volts)
                           uVolts and
                           change between last data point in the CSV file 

  3 A section of Excel csv file from 500uV/div, with added columns for:
                           Fix Point Format  (volts)
                           uVolts and
                           change between last data point in the CSV file 


Note" the section of data is near the 0.0 Volts value, ie @ sample 1400 in 2.8K


I  see for 1mV/div the resolution is 40uV in the data samples (delta = n*40)
And for  500uV/div the resolution is 20uV in the data samples (delta = n*20)


Also
@Xyphro
  I do not fully understand your Histogram  and I would like to see the histogram with the Axis switched  (0-200) on 'X' and show bars for number of samples occurring for each voltages level.  maybe try "hist(sig500uv, 256)";
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 08, 2013, 05:08:06 pm

I got a confirmation from Rigol, that the 500uV mode is a scaled mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 08, 2013, 05:28:35 pm

I got a confirmation from Rigol, that the 500uV mode is a scaled mode.

So we have been cheated!  >:D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 08, 2013, 05:58:13 pm

I got a confirmation from Rigol, that the 500uV mode is a scaled mode.

For my own work I don't particularly care, but they should REALLY note that in their documentation.

Would you mind posting their exact response?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 08, 2013, 06:00:17 pm
I am glad , I have 500uV/div, with 200uV Noise @BW=20MHz
and 20 uV resolution, how ever it is derived.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 08, 2013, 06:24:28 pm
What do you mean 'WE'.. ;D.., 

I am glad , I have 500uV, with 200uV Noise @BW=20MHz
and 20 uV resolution, how ever it is derived.

I am glad and pleased too!  :) :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on July 08, 2013, 07:03:18 pm
Hello,

I did not understand how the resolution in 500uV/Div normal mode can be 20uV?
If it was scaled 1mV/Div I would expect a 40uV resolution.

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 08, 2013, 07:25:12 pm
I did not understand how the resolution in 500uV/Div normal mode can be 20uV?
If it was scaled 1mV/Div I would expect a 40uV resolution.
take a series of 40 uV points and interpolate 
   I guess  take     200, 200, 240, 240, 280, 280
           and make  200, 220, 240, 260, 280, 300
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on July 08, 2013, 07:36:35 pm
Hello Teneyes,

this would be a kind of filtering and the BW should go down.
And it would be no scaling.

Best Regards
egonotto
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 08, 2013, 07:58:07 pm
this would be a kind of filtering and the BW should go down.

Maybe EV or Wim can do a Sweep with DS2000 set @ 500uV, I only did from 4-40 MHz

I dont get the clou, but the bandwidth at 500 uV is the same as at other levels, what
do i have to do...

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on July 08, 2013, 08:00:22 pm
Or the 20Mhz bw limit is done in the digital domain with a 8 bit signal path? You said it was turned on if I remember correctly.

But I'm also still happy with my Rigol :-)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 08, 2013, 08:03:30 pm
Or the 20Mhz bw limit is done in the digital domain with a 8 bit signal path? You said it was turned on if I remember correctly.

But I'm also still happy with my Rigol :-)

i dont think so, as the entry chip  can do this easy,

from the TI datasheet:

In a typical oscilloscope application, the voltage range encountered is from 1 mV/DIV to 10 V/DIV with 8 vertical
divisions visible on the screen. One of the primary concerns in a digital oscilloscope is SNR which translates to
display trace width/ thickness. Typically, oscilloscope manufacturers need the noise level to be low enough so
that the “no-input” visible trace width is less than 1% of FS. Experience has shown that this corresponds to a
minimum SNR of 52 dB.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on July 08, 2013, 08:05:10 pm
Is there a way to adjust the trigger to 50% of the signal?  I don't see this button which was quite handy on my previous rigol...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 08, 2013, 08:36:28 pm
Is there a way to adjust the trigger to 50% of the signal?  I don't see this button which was quite handy on my previous rigol...
Presuming you still want the signal displayed with DC coupling, you can put the trigger in AC coupling and 0V and it will do that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on July 08, 2013, 08:44:58 pm
Is there a way to adjust the trigger to 50% of the signal?  I don't see this button which was quite handy on my previous rigol...
Presuming you still want the signal displayed with DC coupling, you can put the trigger in AC coupling and 0V and it will do that.

I usually use DC coupling and just press the 50% button to put the trigger in the center of the signal...  No way to do this?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on July 08, 2013, 10:05:50 pm
Maybe EV or Wim can do a Sweep with DS2000 set @ 500uV, I only did from 4-40 MHz

Sorry, I am not at home yet.  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on July 09, 2013, 12:28:22 am
(...) Could you please send a 100kHz sine wave into your Agilent DSO - then adjust the horizontal scale until the sampling rate shows 100kSa/s - then grab a screen shot and post it (...)
Thanks,
Mark
Here are my pictures. I added a 10MHz at 10MSa/s. There is some small product of aliasing, but it's OK. It is not a clear sine wave, that fools you.
Edit: Note the wrong automatic frequency measurements. But it is not a huge deal. Who would use it at undersampled signal...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 09, 2013, 01:18:12 am
Here are my pictures. I added a 10MHz at 10MSa/s. There is some small product of aliasing, but it's OK. It is not a clear sine wave, that fools you.

Thanks, Hydrawerk. I understood the math, but I hadn't seen it in action.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on July 09, 2013, 10:05:11 pm
So how do similar pictures from DS2000 look like?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 09, 2013, 10:24:10 pm
I think pix are close to Hydrawerk's conditions

Huh?  ???  Totally aliasing - not close at all.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 09, 2013, 10:28:55 pm
Huh?  ???  Totally aliasing - not close at all.
I think you missed what Teneyes was replying to ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on July 09, 2013, 10:36:50 pm
So how do similar pictures from DS2000 look like?
I think pix are close to Hydrawerk's conditions
Thank you for the pictures. What happens if you turn on the Antialiasing feature?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 10, 2013, 03:54:25 am
So how do similar pictures from DS2000 look like?
I think pix are close to Hydrawerk's conditions
Thank you for the pictures. What happens if you turn on the Antialiasing feature?


hydrawerk, here is the antialiasing feature at work on Rigol https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg255344/#msg255344 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg255344/#msg255344).   It attempts to minimize moire patterns on the display.  I think it works fine

marmad and now Teneyes expect this feature to do something else in undersampling mode. But looks like they will get  either noise with some aliasing (Agilent) or "classic" aliasing (Rigol).  they don't get to see the real signal while undersampling.  So guys pick your poison  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Marc M. on July 10, 2013, 04:23:09 am
marmad and now Teneyes expect this feature to do something else in undersampling mode. But looks like they will get  either noise with some aliasing (Agilent) or "classic" aliasing (Rigol).  they don't get to see the real signal while undersampling.  So guys pick your poison  :-//
Please add me to the above list ;).  Both Marmad and Teneyes understand the theory behind proper anti-aliasing as applied to scopes and it is clear that Rigol does not perform it that way.  With all the material that's been presented on how random decimation of the raw data helps to minimize the effects of aliasing, I'm at a bit of a loss why this is still being argued  :-//.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 07:11:18 am
hydrawerk, here is the antialiasing feature at work on Rigol https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg255344/#msg255344 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg255344/#msg255344).   It attempts to minimize moire patterns on the display.  I think it works fine
Wow, you just don't want to stop being wrong about this  :)

The meaning of Aliasing, as applied to a DSO, is when high-frequency components “fold down” into a lower frequency when the sample rate isn’t fast enough. What you call "classic" aliasing is the ONLY aliasing - there is NO other meaning in the world of Digital Storage Oscilloscopes. As I've mentioned before, if you think there is, please post a link describing a different kind of aliasing in DSOs.

What Rigol calls Anti-Aliasing is a useless feature. There is no way I would be confused by your first image into thinking I was seeing a lower frequency than I was. Oh great, it's managed to eliminate a fluctuating pattern in a solid block of pixels - whoopee!  ;D

Quote
marmad and now Teneyes expect this feature to do something else in undersampling mode. But looks like they will get  either noise with some aliasing (Agilent) or "classic" aliasing (Rigol).  they don't get to see the real signal while undersampling.  So guys pick your poison  :-//
The Agilent's "noise", as you call it, is actually a solid block of pixels, which is what you should see given the frequency and sample rate - that is the REAL signal (or a close enough approximation). That would actually help me from being confused by incorrectly folded-down lower frequencies. Sorry, but it seems as if you still don't understand the concept of what it's doing ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 10, 2013, 07:49:10 am
OOOH Boy what a Scan and sample rate (5Sa/s)  here
The Warming up of my DSO with terminated inputs.
about 25 minutes between Pix
Note the gradual drift of the trace to Zero over 35 minutes
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 08:13:48 am
This is basically what a 100kHz sine wave SHOULD look like at 500ms/div:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54268)


This is what the Rigol displays @500ms/div using 200kSa/s:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54270)


This is what the Agilent displays @500ms/div using 100kSa/s:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54154)


Which is closer to the REAL signal?

"Anti-aliasing" should eliminate aliasing - period. If that means that the DSO needs to 'lock' the sample size while the feature is being used - that's what it should do.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 09:22:42 am
I realize that normally the DSO triggers on a select trigger (condition) and that there is a need to record data before and after the event.  I am finding it an annoyance to have to wait as the DSO records long data before I am able to force a trigger.

When I select , "Single" I want 1 event
When I select , a Long time base  , 1 min/div  ( anything greater than 2 seconds)
When I move trigger point to near left edge of the Display ( showing I wish to see data after the trigger)
and then I press a "Force" trigger, I wish to see data Now
 I think the DSO should start the trace immediately and just show the data immediately at the trigger point and NOT make me wait a long time for the DOS to record a preample.

@Teneyes: I played around with the slower time bases to see what I could figure out. It appears as if the Rigol has to capture a minimum of ~512 bytes of pre-trigger data; this is when the trigger point is anywhere off the screen to the left (D >= 7 x time base). This pre-trigger data, of course, is what it analyzes to look for triggering events.

The length of time this takes is linked - as it must be - to the sampling rate. So if my memory depth is set to 14kB, then my sample rate at, for example, 200s/div is only 5Sa/s. So that means it takes the DSO ~102.4 seconds to fill the 512 byte pre-trigger buffer before the 'WAIT' status is displayed. OTOH, if my memory depth is set to 56MB, then my sample rate is 20kSa/s, so it only takes ~.0256 seconds to fill the buffer.

If you want the DSO to respond instantly at slow time base settings for Single shot - move the trigger point >= 7 x divisions left and use a large memory depth.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 09:41:50 am
Nope not for me :
  At 20s/div, 14 Mpts, 50KSa/s ,
After moving trigger point to 5 div left of center (on the screen), "Wait" takes 40 seconds to Arm

Dude! It's because you're asking it to show you two divisions BEFORE the trigger: 2 x 20 seconds = 40 seconds. How can it show you that if it doesn't first capture it? Move the trigger point 2 divisions left and it will be almost instantaneous to "Wait".  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 09:50:54 am
After moving trigger point to 5 div left of center (on the screen), "Wait" takes 40 seconds to Arm

Anything visible on the DSO screen which is left of the trigger point is considered pre-trigger buffer. That buffer is FIFO - and needs to be completely filled at the current time base setting before any triggering can happen.  If the trigger point is >= 7 x time base setting, then the pre-trigger buffer is ~512 bytes. Once it's filled, the DSO is ready to be triggered, since new sample data will just overwrite the buffer.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 09:59:40 am
Yes , got it now, to get immediate tracing on manual trigger set the trigger exacting at left edge of the display,  Just an OLD dude like the scan, I'm a bit slow :),
 before left edge, then you wait to see trace
   after left edge  then you wait to arm

Yes, but just be aware that even with the trigger point all the way left, if your sample rate is too low, it can still take a long time to fill the 512 bytes.

And don't worry: everything - and everybody - will slow down in the end .  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 02:53:43 pm
yeah sure , STOP DEAD
3:18 AM , time for bed
But you had just enough time before bed to push us up to 100 pages in this thread! We are the second longest thread here at EEVBlog - and bearing down on first place.  >:D

It took "Hantek - Tekway - DSO hack - get 200MHz bw for free (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-tekway-dso-hack-get-200mhz-bw-for-free/)" (the longest thread) 2 years, 2 months, and 5 days to get to 100 pages - while it only took us 8 months and 10 days to get here - and we weren't even offering free bandwidth.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 10, 2013, 03:41:05 pm
This is basically what a 100kHz sine wave SHOULD look like at 500ms/div:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54268)


This is what the Rigol displays @500ms/div using 200kSa/s:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54270)

This is what the Agilent displays @500ms/div using 100kSa/s:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54154)


Which is closer to the REAL signal?

"Anti-aliasing" should eliminate aliasing - period. If that means that the DSO needs to 'lock' the sample size while the feature is being used - that's what it should do.

Agilent is more real, but it's lying about the sampling rate.  It's oversampling the signal and then performs DSP on it to down convert to 100ksps.  Rigol shows the real 200khz sampling rate.   with only two samples per cycle it's not able to represent the amplitude correctly so it appears like the signal is amplitude modulated.  Rigol shows what you asked, with no gimmicky "stochastic" sampling.   If you keep an eye on the sampling rate you'd be fine. The Auto button will work in a pinch ;)  Anyways I'm done commenting on aliasing.  :box:


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 04:19:12 pm
Agilent is more real, but it's lying about the sampling rate.  It's oversampling the signal and then performs DSP on it to down convert to 100ksps.

It's not lying about anything - 100kSa/s means exactly that = 100,000 samples per second - you can arrive at that anyway you'd like. OTOH, the Rigol IS lying about 'Anti-Aliasing' - it DOES NOT DO IT, as anyone who understands aliasing can see. And that, after all, has been the point of this entire discussion.  :)

Quote
Rigol shows the real 200khz sampling rate.   with only two samples per cycle it's not able to represent the amplitude correctly so it appears like the signal is amplitude modulated.  Rigol shows what you asked, with no gimmicky "stochastic" sampling.

It's no more gimmicky than averaging, high-res mode, intensity grading, or a dozen other things both DSOs do. Again, if a DSO says it does anti-aliasing - it should do it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 10, 2013, 04:23:35 pm
100KHz oversampled at 2MSa/sec
How can one tell the difference?

1st display looks like a display in Zibadun's post
2nd display I push Auto (1.7Hz AM)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2013, 05:08:13 pm
Congratulations, you have found it!  :) :-+ I heard first time about aliasing about half year ago.

Scratch that  :(  Damn, I got over-excited about nothing. In fact, it doesn't seem as if the Anti-Aliasing button had the effect I thought it was having with AUTO memory setting - the aliasing still happens when you zoom in on the waveform when the DSO is stopped.  :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 10, 2013, 05:44:20 pm
- the aliasing still happens when you zoom in on the waveform when the DSO is stopped.  :(
Did you Zoom in far enough??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on July 11, 2013, 02:55:29 am
OOOH Boy what a Scan and sample rate (5Sa/s)  here
The Warming up of my DSO with terminated inputs.
about 25 minutes between Pix
Note the gradual drift of the trace to Zero over 35 minutes

Mine drifts over 2 divisions from cold to warmup. See this old post and the one after it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg241517/#msg241517 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg241517/#msg241517)
 
My drift stops after 15 minutes.
I ended up sending it back for the issue then found out it was "normal" after the replacement did the same thing. Channel 1 drifts 2 divisions where channel 2 drifts less than 1 division on both of the scopes I had.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 11, 2013, 10:01:06 am
Yesterday I received my DS2072, I'm very happy. This topic reaches 100 pages, 100 pages of satisfaction, LOL ...

RIGOL good job.  :-+

More good news, to see who get it.  :)

ON Semiconductor:
  MMBTH10-4L  fT(min) 800 MHz -> SMD Mark Code: 3E4.
  MMBTH10L     fT(min) 650 MHz -> SMD Mark Code: 3EM.
Fairchild:
  MMBFJ309      16dB @ 100MHz and 12dB @ 450MHz  (No gain mode, only follower), SMD Mark Code:6U

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022205555/# (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022205555/#)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 11, 2013, 10:52:46 am
yeah sure , STOP DEAD
3:18 AM , time for bed
But you had just enough time before bed to push us up to 100 pages in this thread! We are the second longest thread here at EEVBlog - and bearing down on first place.  >:D

It took "Hantek - Tekway - DSO hack - get 200MHz bw for free (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-tekway-dso-hack-get-200mhz-bw-for-free/)" (the longest thread) 2 years, 2 months, and 5 days to get to 100 pages - while it only took us 8 months and 10 days to get here - and we weren't even offering free bandwidth.  ;D

474 postings are made by you, 1009 by others. In "my" Tekway thread 605 are made by me and 1230 by others.
It is however somehow unfair compare, the Tekway/Hantek/Voltcraft community is large, but ~ 5000 of these DSO owners don't speak or don't post english (lol) or post on mikrocontroller.net (2788 replies!). That makes 4623 total (of which i posted 1326 times) postings related to Tekway/Hantek/Voltcraft DSO/MSO in the 3 main threads only :P

But still, this Rigol thread is growing incredible fast !.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 11, 2013, 11:20:06 am
474 postings are made by you, 1009 by others. In "my" Tekway thread 605 are made by me and 1230 by others.
It is however somehow unfair compare, the Tekway/Hantek/Voltcraft community is large, but ~ 5000 of these DSO owners don't speak or don't post english (lol) or post on mikrocontroller.net (2788 replies!). That makes 4623 total (of which i posted 1326 times) postings related to Tekway/Hantek/Voltcraft DSO/MSO in the 3 main threads only :P

You did run the percentages, didn't you? 31.9% of the replies here were by me - 32.9% of the replies in your thread were by you - so I edge you slightly out there.  ;)  Although this post by me might even us out.  :)

And, I'm sorry, but I don't know what mikrocontroller.net has to do with EEVBlog. If you combine the top #2 and #3 threads here (both of which were started by me), I totally kick your ass here at EEVBlog.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 11, 2013, 11:33:34 am
Did you Zoom in far enough??

Sure. But in your example images, you're sampling a 1MHz signal at 50MHz - so you wouldn't have any problems with aliasing anyway.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 11, 2013, 12:25:28 pm
And, I'm sorry, but I don't know what mikrocontroller.net has to do with EEVBlog. If you combine the top #2 and #3 threads here (both of which were started by me), I totally kick your ass here at EEVBlog.  ;D

it is not about you and me or our threads in generally, but about threads about these two specific topics (if i would count my posts on analforum.com i would kick half of the world forever :P )

For sure mikrocontroller.net have nothing to do with eevblog, but large part of the german/eu Tekway/Hantek/Voltcraft community was posting there and not here, so even with this handicap the Tekway thread on Eevblog is huge.

On the other side, exacty as you said, "8 months and 10 days" to get 100 pages, and thats a lot!

Within same time i got only 50-55 pages :( So "free something" didn't means anything, heh.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 11, 2013, 01:11:36 pm
it is not about you and me or our threads in generally, but about threads about these two specific topics (if i would count my posts on analforum.com i would kick half of the world forever :P )

 ;D

Quote
On the other side, exacty as you said, "8 months and 10 days" to get 100 pages, and thats a lot!

Yes... but OTOH, membership here seems to be growing exponentially, so this thread had that in it's favor.

Quote
Within same time i got only 50-55 pages :( So "free something" didn't means anything, heh.

Well, I imagine until that Tekway/Hantek/Voltcraft DSO line is completely dead, it will impossible to ever catch up to your thread's leading 'view' total.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 11, 2013, 01:27:16 pm
This post: "REVIEW - Owon SDS7102 - A look at the SDS series from Owon" Also has nearly 100 pages, but not due to the quality of the product.  >:D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 11, 2013, 02:25:25 pm
So yesterday I got prematurely excited during testing because I thought that Anti-Aliasing was actually working when Memory Depth was set to AUTO - but it turns out not to be true.  :(

It did get me thinking about it though:
Normally when you set Memory Depth to AUTO, the DSO automatically adjusts the sample size (up to 14M) to keep the sample rate as high as possible (with just enough samples needed to fill the horizontal scale [time base x 14]). But why doesn't Rigol write a new FW routine which has a different behavior for when both AUTO and ANTI-ALIASING are on?

Instead of changing the block sample size or rate, the routine would keep the sample rate fixed @ 2GSa/s - and just achieve the necessary sample size for the display by random decimation (i.e. stochastic sampling). This would allow users to use anti-aliasing while probing unknown signals - then if deeper sampling of a certain time base is desired, simply turning off ANTI-ALIASING will cause the DSO to fall back into normal AUTO mode.

To me, it seems pretty easy to implement - certainly no more difficult than HIGH-RES mode, or a number of other post-processing techniques they use.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 11, 2013, 02:32:22 pm
To me, it seems pretty easy to implement - certainly no more difficult than HIGH-RES mode, or a number of other post-processing techniques they use.

I hope that RIGOL consider it.
They could also add decoders CAN and LIN.

Note: With serial number: DS2A1516xxxxx, continue with probes RP3300.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 11, 2013, 02:36:49 pm
I hope that RIGOL consider it.
They could also add decoders CAN and LIN.

I'm afraid that those decoders are something that they might consider as product differentiation between the DS2000 and DS4000 series. CAN and LIN are also not offered in the new DS1000Z series.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 11, 2013, 02:41:10 pm
Well, a PC application solves this problem.  :)
Like a translator to OLS-client.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 11, 2013, 03:13:50 pm
But why doesn't Rigol write a new FW routine which has a different behavior for when both AUTO and ANTI-ALIASING are on?

To me, it seems pretty easy to implement - certainly no more difficult than HIGH-RES mode, or a number of other post-processing techniques they use.
Do you have any picture evidence that the DS2000 is capable of oversampling?  My first couple of attempts at this seemed to indicate otherwise (which is what I was complaining about a dozen pages ago) but I haven't spent the time yet to thoroughly convince myself of it.  If the DS2000 can only process what makes it to sample memory, then the anti-aliasing you want is simply not possible.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 11, 2013, 04:54:58 pm
Do you have any picture evidence that the DS2000 is capable of oversampling?  My first couple of attempts at this seemed to indicate otherwise (which is what I was complaining about a dozen pages ago) but I haven't spent the time yet to thoroughly convince myself of it.  If the DS2000 can only process what makes it to sample memory, then the anti-aliasing you want is simply not possible.

The technique doesn't require the DSO to ever sample faster than 2GSa/s - it just varies how it decimates those samples at slower time base settings. This could happen between the ADC and sample memory (which is how I think the Agilent does it) or it could happen between sample memory and display memory.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 11, 2013, 05:40:47 pm
The technique doesn't require the DSO to ever sample faster than 2GSa/s - it just varies how it decimates those samples at slower time base settings.
I've never suggested that the DSO sample faster than its max. I haven't seen evidence that the Rigol ever does any logic between ADC and sample memory, even if the current sample rate is 1MSa/s.
Quote
This could happen between the ADC and sample memory (which is how I think the Agilent does it) or it could happen between sample memory and display memory.
I'm confused: I thought the anti-aliasing you've been talking about has to happen before writing to sample memory.  How could a sample->display algorithm help the situation in the agilent vs rigol images posted earlier? The presence of a high frequency signal has already been lost.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 11, 2013, 05:44:52 pm
Reporting A BUG
on FFT the DSO must maintain the Center frequency selected at the center of the display as you change through span scales
Start with span top (widest to see peak) then narrow span and the display must spread the frequency holding the center frequency at the Center of the Display!!!. see Pic , as only the Scale(FFT) was changed.  And NOT move the selected Peak way off the display, and Making the 'Pissed Off' User constantly  needing to adjust the Center Frequency.  Seem like the Programmers have never worked in Frequency domain

I will forward to RigolNA
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on July 11, 2013, 06:32:48 pm
So I posted this a few days ago but I guess it got buried. Anyone have any comments on my posts about the MATH functions back here? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg257777/#msg257777 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg257777/#msg257777)

Am I using it incorrectly or is it a bug?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 11, 2013, 07:03:11 pm
I'm confused: I thought the anti-aliasing you've been talking about has to happen before writing to sample memory.  How could a sample->display algorithm help the situation in the agilent vs rigol images posted earlier? The presence of a high frequency signal has already been lost.

Ok - a few things to clarify (some or all of which may be obvious):
The anti-aliasing I've been talking about won't solve EVERY aliasing problem - just the majority of them.
Most aliasing on a DSO happens when people use a slower time base setting, thus causing the DSO to use a lower sample rate - thus lowering the effective bandwidth of the DSO.
When you see an aliased waveform on the DSO screen, you should actually be seeing a block of pixels; i.e. the equivalent of a fuzzy band (because the period of the waveform ~<= the pixel-to-pixel time).
During normal sampling (regular time intervals), running an ADC clock at 1MSa/s is the same thing as sampling at 2GSa/s and keeping every 2000th sample (simple decimation) - with either technique you will get aliasing on, for example, a 20MHz sine wave.
OTOH, sampling at 2GSa/s and varying the sample you keep within certain parameters (random decimation) will NOT give you aliasing - because the sub-(beat)-frequencies which can appear due to the regular time intervals between samples will not occur.

The Rigol does NOT have to do this during sampling; it could sample at full speed (2GSa/s) into sample memory - then do random decimation (to simulate the current sampling rate) to display memory. Of course, this wouldn't work for ALL slower sample rates (at some point the memory wouldn't be large enough), but it could work for many slower rates.

Is this clear now?  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 11, 2013, 07:19:58 pm
. Anyone have any comments on my posts about the MATH functions back here?
@VE7XEN eh!
looks like limited numerical , point to point calculation and use DC values see disp

Yes I see Positive accumulations in the Int() function
See pics
1, Dirfting up
2  Drifting  down  ;D
3  By putting offset of -20mVdc on the 2Vpp sawtooth dirft was zero'ed

4  Now with Sinwave ,
     NOTE the input of 7.36Vpp integrates to 4mVpp
             the  input has a -14.6Vdc Offset   
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on July 11, 2013, 07:41:43 pm
Thanks Teneyes, I think you're right, it's just accumulation of a constant offset. I suppose that makes sense.

But why the tiny and gigantic values, they're orders of magnitude out from expected?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 11, 2013, 07:50:50 pm
Reporting A BUG
on FFT the DSO must maintain the Center frequency selected at the center of the display as you change through span scales
An Update, and very quick, I'm impressed :-+ :-+

---------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Teneyes (edit)

Thanks for sharing the information. I understand what you are saying - that you would like the FFT function to work more like a Spectrum Analyzer where the span adjusts from the center.

All of our scopes operate like the DS2000 because the high end of the span is really set by the time per division of the underlying signal. That timing effects your sample rate on the display and consequently the max frequency. So, as a design decision we made the span move from the left side to keep the accurate parts of the signal on the display as much as possible.

I would actually prefer that the FFT moves from the center like you suggest, but all our scopes currently move from the left. So, for best operation you may want to move your target signal toward the left side before zooming in or set your span first and then adjust the center.

We will submit this as an enhancement request since we think it is a good idea, but as all of our scopes currently operate in this mode I wouldn't expect it to be something that is changed quickly. We will probably need to put some wider organizational thought into it.

Thanks for the feedback!
Chris Armstrong,   General Manager , Rigol NA Technologies

------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Chris
 
   Thank you for the quick response.
 
Yes, I realize the timebase/sample rate sets the max frequency for the frequency span in FFT mode.
 
I suggest Rigol keep the setup as is.
 
But I suggest Rigol add a check to see if the Operator-set Center Frequency is within the span of the 4 choices (determined by time base) then I suggest the program does Not go to the pre=assigned Center frequency but keep the operator selected Center Frequency.
 
Obviously, entering the FFT mode there is no Center Frequency so setting 0 Hz on left is correct.
 
Now if the time base is Not changed,
then the changing of the Frequency/div does not change the 4 choices(of span) and the Center frequency is still available, so I suggest keep the Center Frequency at center of the Display.
 
For that matter even if the time base is changed, if one of the new 4 choices(of span) overlaps the existing selection then keep the same Center Frequency . 
 
Thanks Again
===================================================

Great process flow summary Teneyes! (edit)
I will pass it along.
thanks for the help making our products better!

Chris
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 12, 2013, 05:10:15 am
The Rigol does NOT have to do this during sampling; it could sample at full speed (2GSa/s) into sample memory - then do random decimation (to simulate the current sampling rate) to display memory. Of course, this wouldn't work for ALL slower sample rates (at some point the memory wouldn't be large enough), but it could work for many slower rates.

Is this clear now?  :)
With you up to here.  I thought "at some point the memory wouldn't be large enough" is every time sample rate is reduced. Going back and looking at one of the examples you posted (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg252823/#msg252823), the scope is sampling at 200kSa/s because the memory depth is set to 14kpt and the timebase is 5ms. There's no room to increase the sample rate there, so that couldn't be a fix to that particular aliasing.  What's an example where it could still sample at 2GSa/s into sample memory that it isn't doing that already?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 12, 2013, 09:07:19 am
A little Tip for Math function  Intg()
When using an input from a Chan and the Scan rate is in mSec, then multiply the input by 1000, that way the Units calculated will be in U,  see the display
For a square wave input of -1.0  to 1.0 Vdc at 4mSec period
So integrating (+1.0 *1000) for 2 mSec = +2 Units
So integrating (-1.0 *1000) for 2 mSec  =  -2 Units

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 12, 2013, 09:16:51 am
A Tip for Math function  Intg() and Coupling
In order to check if pulse train average duty cycle is positive or negative, use Intg()
see displays
 1  60% duty cycle, the trace drifts up
 2  40% duty cycle, the trace drifts down
 3  20% duty cycle, But AC coupled drifts???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 12, 2013, 09:23:45 am
With you up to here.  I thought "at some point the memory wouldn't be large enough" is every time sample rate is reduced. Going back and looking at one of the examples you posted (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg252823/#msg252823), the scope is sampling at 200kSa/s because the memory depth is set to 14kpt and the timebase is 5ms. There's no room to increase the sample rate there, so that couldn't be a fix to that particular aliasing.
Huh?  ???  No room to increase the sample rate? It's sampling at 200kSa/s because the memory depth is FIXED at 14k - that's the only reason. If the sample size wasn't fixed there (if it used all 56M), it could be sampling at 500MSa/s; plenty fast enough to fix that aliasing.

Quote
What's an example where it could still sample at 2GSa/s into sample memory that it isn't doing that already?
ANYTIME up to 2ms/div it's not sampling at 2GSa/s, it could be - if it didn't use FIXED sample sizes.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49232)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 12, 2013, 09:54:50 am
From Rigol Engineering (thanks to jsykes):


"Every fixed scale, from 1mV/div to 10V/div with 1-2-5 steps (assuming probe attenuation is set to 1X, other probe attenuation settings are math based), is physically amplified or attenuated.
 
The 500uV/div and any vernier scales (those between ranges) are math based. They do not have a fixed range resistor implementation, but instead rely on a variable gain attenuator."
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on July 12, 2013, 10:05:45 am
A little Tip for Math function  Intg()
When using an input from a Chan and the Scan rate is in mSec, then multiply the input by 1000, that way the Units calculated will be in U,  see the display
For a square wave input of -1.0  to 1.0 Vdc at 4mSec period
So integrating (+1.0 *1000) for 2 mSec = +2 Units
So integrating (-1.0 *1000) for 2 mSec  =  -2 Units
Nice work! It's useful after all!

Thanks :D

I would consider this a bug though.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 12, 2013, 10:28:12 am
Tips for FFT
When using the FFT Math feature, it is good to know that the 'SCALE' and 'POSITION' knobs change functions,
After selecting 'CH'
        the   Scale  Knob adjusts the Time Base
        the Position Knob adjusts the Trigger postions


After selecting 'Math'
        the   Scale  Knob adjusts the Frequency Span
        the Position Knob adjusts the Center Frequency


There are 4 frequency scales at each time base setting, see display 4

Here are some FFT Displays
  1. 500KHz Carrier
  2. 500KHz Carrier with 25Khz Modulation
  3. 500KHz Carrier with 25Khz Modulation at 1st Bessel Carrier Null

  4  Table of available frequency Scales at each Timebase setting,(scales per) + Max.Freq.

EDIT added Max Freq. to Table
EDIT added Anti-Aliasing comment to table
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 12, 2013, 03:33:07 pm
ANYTIME up to 2ms/div it's not sampling at 2GSa/s, it could be - if it didn't use FIXED sample sizes.
So by that reasoning, the DS2000 already does anti-aliasing:  Select the maximum memory depth and turn on anti-aliasing.  But you haven't been satisfied by that "anti-aliasing" in the rest of this thread. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 12, 2013, 03:51:29 pm
So by that reasoning, the DS2000 already does anti-aliasing:  Select the maximum memory depth and turn on anti-aliasing.  But you haven't been satisfied by that "anti-aliasing" in the rest of this thread.

Sheesh... man, it seems you haven't understood the process I'm talking about at all. Selecting the maximum memory depth and turning on anti-aliasing does NOT eliminate aliases at all. Plus it's insanely slow trying to decimate 56M to display memory constantly.

This seems oddly reminiscent of trying to convince you that Rigol's High-Res mode produces the same results as everyone else.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 12, 2013, 04:36:38 pm
Quote
The Rigol does NOT have to do this during sampling; it could sample at full speed (2GSa/s) into sample memory - then do random decimation (to simulate the current sampling rate) to display memory
...
ANYTIME up to 2ms/div it's not sampling at 2GSa/s, it could be - if it didn't use FIXED sample sizes. (with chart that can be recomputed with simple math.)
I translate that into:
1) Sample into sample buffer at the fastest rate memory depth + time base allows (up to 2GSa/s, ofc)
2) decimate to screen

The Rigol does that now.  And we agree it doesn't fix acquisition aliasing. So that leaves me suspecting I'm missing something in your description of what you'd like the Rigol to do.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 12, 2013, 05:01:52 pm
Quote
The Rigol does NOT have to do this during sampling; it could sample at full speed (2GSa/s) into sample memory - then do random decimation (to simulate the current sampling rate) to display memory
I translate that into:
1) Sample into sample buffer at the fastest rate memory depth + time base allows (up to 2GSa/s, ofc)
2) decimate to screen

The Rigol does that now.  And we agree it doesn't fix acquisition aliasing. So that leaves me suspecting I'm missing something in your description of what you'd like the Rigol to do.
No, the Rigol doesn't do that now.

It certainly doesn't do RANDOM decimation, and I don't think it does decimation to simulate lower sampling frequencies either.

I've written this all before:
Random decimation (stochastic sampling) is the key to anti-aliasing. Beat frequencies (aliases) are formed by regular time interval sampling.

In the image, the black crosses and dotted line show regular decimation forming an alias frequency of the true frequency. The red crosses and line show irregular (random) decimation NOT forming an alias.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54520)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 12, 2013, 05:51:58 pm
Quote
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54520)
In that picture, normally the sine wave is the true signal, and the black vs red crosses are what's written to sample memory. That produces results like on the Agilent. 

My confusion is with your claim that the Rigol could theoretically anti-alias without doing the random decimation before storing samples into the waveform.  If it can sample fast enough to store that sine wave into sample memory, it already doesn't alias. (If that sine wave is in sample memory, the aliased low frequency sine wave will never be what's on the screen.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 12, 2013, 06:36:46 pm
My confusion is with your claim that the Rigol could theoretically anti-alias without doing the random decimation before storing samples into the waveform.  If it can sample fast enough to store that sine wave into sample memory, it already doesn't alias. (If that sine wave is in sample memory, the aliased low frequency sine wave will never be what's on the screen.)

It's about speed!

At 5ms/div, with a 56M sample length, the Rigol is sampling at 500MSa/s. With those settings, the interface is slow!. Do you know why? Not because of the sampling time - its capturing ~6 wfrm/s (compared to ~14 wfrm/s with a 14k sample length). It's because the Rigol has to reduce (decimate) those 56 million sample bytes to the 1400 bytes of display memory - and that takes a hell of a long time.

OTOH, let's say the Rigol only has to decimate a 4000th of that amount of memory (14k) to the 1400 bytes - do you think it might be faster? You can test this quite easily: just see how responsive the scope is at 5ms/div with a 14k sample length - and then with a 56M sample length.

So, if the DSO just grabs every 4000th byte of sample memory for decimation, things will certainly speed up, but the sample rate will then become equivalent to 125kSa/s, and all of a sudden aliasing will be a problem. But not if it does RANDOM decimation with those 14k samples, varying the number of sample it grabs between the Nth and 4000th.

So all of a sudden, you have a DSO working faster at a lower sample rate, but without aliasing.

How much faster? Test the responsiveness of the DSO with a 56M sample length at 5ms/div (it is decimating ALL 56M of 56M), and then again at 500ns/div (it is decimating only 14k of 56M).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 12, 2013, 08:57:04 pm
Quote
The Rigol does NOT have to do this during sampling; it could sample at full speed (2GSa/s) into sample memory - then do random decimation (to simulate the current sampling rate) to display memory
I translate that into:
1) Sample into sample buffer at the fastest rate memory depth + time base allows (up to 2GSa/s, ofc)
2) decimate to screen

The Rigol does that now.  And we agree it doesn't fix acquisition aliasing. So that leaves me suspecting I'm missing something in your description of what you'd like the Rigol to do.
No, the Rigol doesn't do that now.

It certainly doesn't do RANDOM decimation, and I don't think it does decimation to simulate lower sampling frequencies either.

I've written this all before:
Random decimation (stochastic sampling) is the key to anti-aliasing. Beat frequencies (aliases) are formed by regular time interval sampling.

In the image, the black crosses and dotted line show regular decimation forming an alias frequency of the true frequency. The red crosses and line show irregular (random) decimation NOT forming an alias.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54520)

rigol would have to re-architect the entire signal processing chain to do what you show. They would need make sure that the real signals are not affected by your special method and verify that interpolation still works correctly.  The cure would be worse than the disease.  It's far easier to just use the correct sampling rate (i.e. 2.5x highest frequency component). 

I use SDRs daily and haven't heard anyone doing the stochastic sampling.  This is not a common technique.  There is a better way to down sample using CIC and FIR decimating filters which take care of aliasing.  What you propose is a gimmick.  There is one Agilent paper about it and that's it, and it doesn't even mean they use this for anything but translating sample to display memory...

back to my hole :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 12, 2013, 09:28:59 pm
rigol would have to re-architect the entire signal processing chain to do what you show. They would need make sure that the real signals are not affected by your special method and verify that interpolation still works correctly.  The cure would be worse than the disease.  It's far easier to just use the correct sampling rate (i.e. 2.5x highest frequency component).

"My" special method? You give me too much credit; Agilent seems to have been using it for +20 years.  ;)  Perhaps Rigol could just stop pretending that they offer anti-aliasing that works?

Quote
I use SDRs daily and haven't heard anyone doing the stochastic sampling.  This is not a common technique.

Sorry, but how would you know how common it is among DSO manufacturers? You didn't even know what it was, and that Agilent used it, up until a few days ago. And Agilent appears to have been using it since at least 1992 - apparently it works quite effectively.

Quote
There is a better way to down sample using CIC and FIR decimating filters which take care of aliasing.

Better in what way? Everything comes with a price. Agilent's random decimation technique appears to be quick, allowing them to achieve their fast wfrm/s rates.

Quote
What you propose is a gimmick.  There is one Agilent paper about it and that's it...

It's not a gimmick; there is tons of literature about stochastic sampling in general - and math to back up the fact that it eliminates aliasing (while introducing noise - which is the price for this technique, as mentioned above). To me, it seems fairly simple to understand how it works.

Quote
.. and it doesn't even mean they use this for anything but translating sample to display memory...

Actually, it's quite obvious from the images posted by others (and re-posted by me) that they've used random decimation while capturing samples at lower sample rates with anti-aliasing in effect: the artifacts are quite visible at the sample level.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 13, 2013, 02:37:40 am
I use SDRs daily and haven't heard anyone doing the stochastic sampling.  This is not a common technique.  There is a better way to down sample using CIC and FIR decimating filters which take care of aliasing.  What you propose is a gimmick.  There is one Agilent paper about it and that's it, and it doesn't even mean they use this for anything but translating sample to display memory...
I found Agilent's Patent for the (original) technique (http://www.google.com/patents/US5115189) - filed in 1991, and invented by Matthew S. Holcomb of the Hewlett-Packard Company. Pretty interesting... I've attached a few images from the Patent here.

Edit: Here is also another published paper about the technique. (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97a5.pdf)

From the paper:
"Instead of storing every Nth digitized point, the decimator can be designed to randomly select one out of every N points for storage. In the case of the 10.01-MHz input, the points placed in memory are points randomly selected from the ten cycles of the input that occur in every 1-s interval. This random sample selection technique effectively dithers the acquisition clock during the acquisition and prevents a beat frequency from developing.

This intra-acquisition dithering technique has been used throughout the HP546XX oscilloscope product line and again in the HP54645A/D products. The effect it has on aliasing is dramatic. Fig. 7a shows the aliased 10-kHz sine wave that is produced when a 10.01-MHz sine wave is sampled at 1 MSa/s. Fig. 7b shows the same display using the dithering process just described. The resulting display is a fuzzy band much like what would be seem on an analog oscilloscope, with all signs of an aliased waveform removed."

Edit2 @zibadun:  So... still think 'my special method' is a gimmick?  :) Apparently, it works quite well eliminating aliases, doesn't affect interpolation, and the reason there isn't lots of information about it in DSO literature is because HP patented it and Agilent doesn't seem to want to talk about it - instead using terminology like the following from the 5000/6000/7000 Series Oscilloscopes User’s Guide:

"At slower sweep speeds, the sample rate is reduced and a proprietary display algorithm is used to minimize the likelihood of aliasing."
Title: Little problems with serial decoding with DS2072
Post by: GermanMarkus on July 13, 2013, 01:04:39 pm
Hello altogehter - this thread is huge, but marvellous stuff here! Thanks to all contributors - that is the reason too why I'm a proud owner of a DS2072 too now :)
So - my only small problem with the great DS2072 is that I encountered a mysterious issue when serial decoding a well known 57600 baud serial datastream. The encoding showed me some wrong characters and so I thought maybe the oscillator of the selfmade sending µcontroller device is out of spec. and I tried the "user selectable" baudrate on the DS2072 and at first I used the same baudrate there too, that's 57600. And - I don't know why - when I switched to the user defined baudrate with exactely the same baudrate (57600) the decoding was perfect :)! So there seems to be an internal difference between the STANDARD 57600 baud decoding and the USERDEFINED 57600 baud decoding in the DS2072. So I tuned  down the userdefined baudrate to approx. 56200 baud and at this baudrate the decoding showed exactely the same incorrect decoding like the STANDARD 57600 baudrate mode. Does anybody have any idea or could verify this issue on his Rigol DSO.
BTW - the sending baudrate is fine and well in spec. for 57600 baud.
I'm using the latest FW 00.01.01.00.02 .
Thanks in advance! Markus
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 13, 2013, 03:27:35 pm

I found Agilent's Patent for the (original) technique (http://www.google.com/patents/US5115189) - filed in 1991, and invented by Matthew S. Holcomb of the Hewlett-Packard Company. Pretty interesting... I've attached a few images from the Patent here.

Edit: Here is also another published paper about the technique. (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97a5.pdf)

From the paper:
"Instead of storing every Nth digitized point, the decimator can be designed to randomly select one out of every N points for storage. In the case of the 10.01-MHz input, the points placed in memory are points randomly selected from the ten cycles of the input that occur in every 1-s interval. This random sample selection technique effectively dithers the acquisition clock during the acquisition and prevents a beat frequency from developing.

This intra-acquisition dithering technique has been used throughout the HP546XX oscilloscope product line and again in the HP54645A/D products. The effect it has on aliasing is dramatic. Fig. 7a shows the aliased 10-kHz sine wave that is produced when a 10.01-MHz sine wave is sampled at 1 MSa/s. Fig. 7b shows the same display using the dithering process just described. The resulting display is a fuzzy band much like what would be seem on an analog oscilloscope, with all signs of an aliased waveform removed."

Edit2 @zibadun:  So... still think 'my special method' is a gimmick?  :) Apparently, it works quite well eliminating aliases, doesn't affect interpolation, and the reason there isn't lots of information about it in DSO literature is because HP patented it and Agilent doesn't seem to want to talk about it - instead using terminology like the following from the 5000/6000/7000 Series Oscilloscopes User’s Guide:

"At slower sweep speeds, the sample rate is reduced and a proprietary display algorithm is used to minimize the likelihood of aliasing."

Good research, marmad. So if Rigol does this they would need a license from hp/Agilent? 

Btw my comment was about SDR receivers, which use a different method to decimate raw adc samples. It may be as good or better than hp's (for example  they reduce broadband noise while down converting instead of adding it)

high performance FPGAs were not so common in 91 so may be this was the best hp could do. Time to move on? :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 13, 2013, 04:09:25 pm

FFT and aliasing, ( two topics in one )

@Teneyes,

I can not find in the topics here the effect of turning aliasing on in FFT, you get then double
See picture 1, aliasing off, 25 Mhz per div
See picture 2,aliasing on, 50 Mhz per div

Also the picture shape is totaly different, when off and on
I always usse alias ON on FFT, because thats is more the way it should be..

( @Marmad, in RUU, if there is a space(s) behind the TCPIP srting, it wont connect )


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 13, 2013, 04:49:29 pm
Good research, marmad. So if Rigol does this they would need a license from hp/Agilent?

I was wondering the same thing myself. I wouldn't normally expect Rigol (or any Chinese Co.) to worry about licenses - but since they had (have?) a working relationship with Agilent, perhaps that makes a difference. It's such a simple technique - and easy to implement in software. IMO, a very clever idea by Matt Holcomb.

Quote
high performance FPGAs were not so common in 91 so may be this was the best hp could do. Time to move on? :)

I don't know. It adds ZERO overhead (at least if down while sampling) - and Agilent has built this into their latest MegaZoom silicon. So I suspect they haven't discovered anything that is as fast and effective.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 13, 2013, 04:50:35 pm
( @Marmad, in RUU, if there is a space(s) behind the TCPIP srting, it wont connect )

There shouldn't be - the last that I heard about it was that it was working over LAN.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 13, 2013, 04:53:39 pm
( @Marmad, in RUU, if there is a space(s) behind the TCPIP srting, it wont connect )

There shouldn't be - the last that I heard about it was that it was working over LAN.

Work fine over LAN, very good, but the first time i would not connect, then
i saw that Windows copy and paste, did a extra space at the end at: TCPIP::192.168.2.36::INSTR

But with that extra space it cannot connect. maybe you can remove spaces.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 13, 2013, 05:06:26 pm
But with that extra space it cannot connect. maybe you can remove spaces.

Ahhh... got it. I thought you wrote 'is' instead of 'if'.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 13, 2013, 05:43:01 pm
See pictures,  ALIAS OFF on FFT, it is totaly useless

The picture with alias ON, that is  how it looks on a spectrum analyser...

also added 3 kc picture, you can see that the other spikes are below the
level , as on alias off. Thats why they are not visible on alias off

For comparision, added a 3kc from an analog signal generatior
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 13, 2013, 06:58:07 pm
@ Teneyes,   dont use rectangle, use a window, as Hanning or Blackman
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 13, 2013, 07:49:59 pm
@ Teneyes,   dont use rectangle, use a window, as Hanning or Blackman
@Wim  Thanks Wim , that is Wonderful
Pics
Better FFT of 3KHZ

and 3K with FM modulated with 50 Hz

Hoping Rigol changes FW so Center frequency stays at Center, for Aliasing Also
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 13, 2013, 07:59:24 pm

If you want more info on FFT and windowing...

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/4844/en/ (http://www.ni.com/white-paper/4844/en/)
Title: Re: Little problems with serial decoding with DS2072
Post by: GermanMarkus on July 14, 2013, 11:52:24 am
So there seems to be an internal difference between the STANDARD 57600 baud decoding and the USERDEFINED 57600 baud decoding in the DS2072. So I tuned  down the userdefined baudrate to approx. 56200 baud and at this baudrate the decoding showed exactely the same incorrect decoding like the STANDARD 57600 baudrate mode.
Did you find what the higher limit of the UserDefined Baud rate also failed? 59,000?
To see what the tolerance band is.
Does it look like the program is sampling at 56,000 hz and not 57,600hz?
AS 14,400, 28,800, 57,600.... are called 14K 28K and 56K Baud

Hello Teneyes and all the other folks :-+
Thanks for the reply!
So it seems like Teneyes assumed: The "standard" serial decoding on the DS2000 series apparently has some issue with the baudrate decoding timing: Selecting 56700 baud in "standard" mode uses 56000 baud to decode and NOT 57600!! But if you select the user defined baudrate and set this one to 57600 it works perfect! Tuning down in user defined baudrate to 56000 baud the decoding shows exactly the same problems like in standard 57600 mode. Maybe the DSO uses also 14000 (instead of 14400), 28000 (instead of 28800) in standard decoding mode - I dont know and have not tested that baudrates yet.
I´m using the latest FW 00.01.01.00.02!
So it´s not a big deal if you know what´s going on because you always can use the user defined baudrate - BUT SEEMS TO BE A FW BUG!

Take care and have fun with the DS2xxx´s anyway.

Markus

Title: Re: Little problems with serial decoding with DS2072
Post by: marmad on July 14, 2013, 12:13:45 pm
Maybe the DSO uses also 14000 (instead of 14400), 28000 (instead of 28800) in standard decoding mode - I dont know and have not tested that baudrates jet.
I´m using the latest FW 00.01.01.00.02!
So it´s not a big deal if you know what´s going on because you always can use the user defined baudrate - BUT SEEMS TO BE A FW BUG!

Thanks, Markus. If you could figure out the full parameters of the bug (e.g. by testing the other rates so that we know the extent), we can add it to the FW bug list - and report it to Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 14, 2013, 12:24:10 pm
FFT

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54640;image)

wondering a bit about that picture, FFT center is 3kHz (so full span 6kHz) but FFT sample rate 10kSa/s ? That didn't make any sense. Or is that zoomed in and moved to left side?
Title: Re: Little problems with serial decoding with DS2072
Post by: GermanMarkus on July 14, 2013, 02:00:32 pm
Maybe the DSO uses also 14000 (instead of 14400), 28000 (instead of 28800) in standard decoding mode - I dont know and have not tested that baudrates jet.
I´m using the latest FW 00.01.01.00.02!
So it´s not a big deal if you know what´s going on because you always can use the user defined baudrate - BUT SEEMS TO BE A FW BUG!

Thanks, Markus. If you could figure out the full parameters of the bug (e.g. by testing the other rates so that we know the extent), we can add it to the FW bug list - and report it to Rigol.

Hi Marmad,
you and the others guys do pretty great stuff here - keep on with your work and thanks a lot!
So I´m trying to contribute a little bit too and was doing some more investigations with an independant serial transmitter (in this case I just was using an ordinary PC for generating quite long serial strings with approx. 100 characters each).
The result is that all of the standard decoding baudrates (2400, 4800, 9600, 19200, 38400 and 115200) work perfect! The only one who decodes with the wrong baudrate timing is the 57600 one. This decodes with 56000 baud!

So this is definitely a FW bug (I´m using the latest FW 00.01.01.00.02) and it would be great if you can put this issue on your FW update list - Thanks!

Anyway - as described before - the workaround for this kind of minor bug is quite easy: If you want to decode a 57600 baud serial string, just use the user defined baudrate and set this one to 57600 and everything is decoded fine!

Have fun in life and with the DS2xxx!

Markus
Title: Re: Little problems with serial decoding with DS2072
Post by: GermanMarkus on July 14, 2013, 09:05:52 pm
[]The only one who decodes with the wrong baudrate timing is the 57600 one. This decodes with 56000 baud! [/b][/color]
the workaround for this kind of minor bug is quite easy: If you want to decode a 57600 baud serial string, just use the user defined baudrate and set this one to 57600 and everything is decoded fine!
Hi Markus

SET THE RS232 TRIGGERING

Hi Teneyes,
I think the triggering has nothing to do with the timing of the serial decoding, so when triggering on the rising edge and in single mode it will trigger as soon as there will be the first communication character. I was triggering on all the other tested baudrates the same way and only in 57600 baud decoding the timing for the decoding is wrong. I think the timing for the decoding is completey independent of the triggering - am I wrong?
As you can see in my pictures the first character was decoded correct and then the decoding was wrong, that means the timing for the decoding was running wrong...
So I still assume this is a firmware bug...

Greez, Markus

EDIT: So, for being absolutely sure I was doing my tests again, this time with RS232 triggering but the result is the same: WRONG decoding in 57600 baud mode - all other baudrates work fine in decoding! So, it´s not a big thing, but it´s a BUG;-)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 14, 2013, 10:17:55 pm
wondering a bit about that picture, FFT center is 3kHz (so full span 6kHz) but FFT sample rate 10kSa/s ? That didn't make any sense. Or is that zoomed in and moved to left side?
The display was 50Hz/div , span of the display =14 x 50 = 700Hz
therefore the display was from 2.65 - 3.35 KHz

 "According to the Shannon Sampling Theorem"

i haven't asked about Shannon but about settings. It is not like you think it is, you can't simply count the visible DIVs and multiply with per DIV value as it could be zoom or part of zoomed window (which is here the case). Center is set to 3kHz, so worst case full span would be 6kHz, what is too much for 10kSa/s. And this is exactly what i asked, and the proper answer was "yes, it is zoom/cut/moved so span 2.65 - 3.35 KHz".
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: poida_pie on July 15, 2013, 01:50:47 am
we seem to be looking at the FFT function of the DS2072 right now.

Have a look at the results I get.
Input is via 50 ohm bnc, with terminator, from Rigol DG1022, 6.32 kHz sine, 1v p/p into
my DS2072 channel 1 200mV/div.

Even though I have chosen a timebase to yield a decent FFT sample rate for the input signal
to display the FFT (the purple text in the first image says "50.000kSa/s") it seems there are lots of
rubbish peaks in the FFT. There is no way the function generator has that kind of signal from a 1 v sine
into 50 ohms.

See the second image. This is from a custom program I wrote that obtains the raw sample data from the DSO
and then performs FFT. the db scale is incorrect. forget about that for this discussion, it is immaterial.
Notice how you see what you expect to see, a clear peak at 6.32kHz and another much smaller one at 2x 6.32kHz. This is to be expected from a cheap function generator. The specs say about 1% THD anyway.
The DS2072 sample rate in this case was 50 kSa/s. I download only the first 2048 samples of the 14,000 available and process it. I also draw the waveform's first hundred or so points above the FTT.
My program can obtain more of the samples, up to 8K and it shows the same story. I use 2048 samples each transfer
to save time and increase frame rates.
You can see the sample points too, they are drawn in white. So it's a 6.32kHz sin, sampled at 50 kSa/s.
The correct information is there. No rubbish peaks. (I dare not use the word alias or I will be shouted at again)

To get a realistic FFT of a signal on the DS2072 you need to speed up the time base to much faster than
the FFT display's sample rate. At 100K there are clear problems still, I need to go to 200kSa/s to get something
approaching reality. This is what I used for the third image.

I conclude by saying that the Rigol DSOs I have owned (DS1102e and DS2072) BOTH perform the same way with respect to generating FFT displays.
They use the display data to make the FFT, not the raw sample data.
This limits very severely the quality of the FFT results.
You need to choose a timebase or sample rate to provide a DISPLAY that has not much fine detail in it
if you want the DS2072 to perform an FFT on it. Using the DISPLAY data to produce FFT power spectra is a poor choice when I have shown the information IS PRESENT AND IS ACCURATE in the raw data.
I estimate about a factor of 20 at least improvement is possible with using the raw data.

I suspect it would take a long time for the DS2072 to produce FFTs from (portions of the) raw data compared with the display data since the latter is already scaled and processed in preparation for drawing on the screen. So the choice was made on that basis by Rigol.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 15, 2013, 07:49:52 am

The Rigol 'Center' is Not the Center frequency of the Scanned span as in a Spectrum Analyzer.
For Rigol DSOs (D2000,DS4000,DS6000),
The 'Center Freq.' is that Frequency that is set at the Center of the display.


When the center of screen is marked as "center", then on left and right side there are exact the same amount of DIVs. As long the FFT is from one edge of the screen to the opposite edge, the center marking is center of full span, a typical center frequency. When you move the FFT to left or right direction then of course that "center" marking if showing the actual frequency on the center line location, so when you move to max. right it will be 0 (or whatever is set to start freq) and when you move to left the full span freq. So whatever you set as DIV, the center marking (again, when position not changed) is always the center frquency of the span. When you zoom in, still the same situation - as long the FFT has been not moved to right or left direction.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 15, 2013, 09:19:36 am
Here is what My DS2072 shows at the left end of the FFT freq.spectrum  , always 0 HZ
see display 2 (Rigol center =0kHz )

really? Even of your picture on left side there is no zero

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54640;image)

but as you said

therefore the display was from 2.65 - 3.35 KHz

and this is exact what i said here (zero to full span or range x to range y, depends on settings):

When the center of screen is marked as "center", then on left and right side there are exact the same amount of DIVs. As long the FFT is from one edge of the screen to the opposite edge, the center marking is center of full span, a typical center frequency. When you move the FFT to left or right direction then of course that "center" marking if showing the actual frequency on the center line location, so when you move to max. right it will be 0 (or whatever is set to start freq) and when you move to left the full span freq. So whatever you set as DIV, the center marking (again, when position not changed) is always the center frquency of the span. When you zoom in, still the same situation - as long the FFT has been not moved to right or left direction.

and the center is always a center of the screen, so when zero to full span the center marker is center frequency, and when range x to range y then it it still center frequency (of the specific range). Only when you move it's not center frequency anymore, which is exactly what it should be (but maybe you expecting something unexpected from Rigol? )
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 15, 2013, 09:39:39 am
and the center is always a center of the screen, so when zero to full span the center marker is center frequency, and when range x to range y then it it still center frequency (of the specific range). Only when you move it's not center frequency anymore, which is exactly what it should be (but maybe you expecting something unexpected from Rigol? )

@Tinhead
Here are more displays to show what the Rigol DSO does ?
The input in all displays is 3KHZ, that is the Carrier signal Peak shown

The displays are shown with the Center at   1k, 2k, 3k, 3k

you sure are making this Blog bigger
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 15, 2013, 10:03:14 am
Hi All
 I am hopeful people can understand this topic and make comments

  To address a question from VE7XEN on the Math Function  Diff()
The manual states:

"Calculate the discrete time differentiate of the selected source.
 You can use differentiate to measure the instantaneous slope of a waveform."

This is somewhat true, but NOT very useful
First it is not the waveform but the display trace that is differentiated
Next the "discrete time " interval is fixed at the sample rate , and not configurable ( delta T)
Next the "instantaneous slope" is always a step in digital sampling resulting in only spikes
Next the scaling is complex to understand.

To demostrate with some displays:
Display 1.  An input of a Triangle signal , should differentiate to a Square wave
                but show ?????  5VU

Display 2.  An input of a Triangle signal , should differentiate to a Square wave
                at a Low level (100mV) to show the discrete pulses

Display 3.  An input of a Triangle signal , should differentiate to a Square wave
                at a Lower level (200mV) to show less the discrete pulses

Display 4.  An input of a Triangle signal , should differentiate to a Square wave
                at a even Lower level (500mV) to show a few the discrete pulses that match the
                steps in the displayed traces

Display 5.  An input of a very slow Triangle signal , should differentiate to a Square wave
                at a even Lower level (500mV) to show a few the discrete pulses that match the
                steps in the displayed traces
                Note: the steps are Not from the generator, 
                         the ramping was accurate to be better than 150uV/6ms

Now, I think this implementation of differentiation is simple and Useless i!!
The question I have for members,
What is a better way??
   Use sample data (more than just the 1400 points of the display data
   Allow high res data, when selected On) ?
   Allow adjustable differentiation intervals ?
   Interpolation between calculated points  ; d(V)/d(t)?
   Process calculate points with smoothy, box car average on results?



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on July 15, 2013, 11:28:42 am
What DSO do you Have ? a Tekway??

currently no DSO, but it's not that i forgot already how they work (and i don't mean now Tekway as they new on the market and actually copied what Tektronix is doing) and what they displaying while in FFT.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 15, 2013, 04:25:57 pm
Wow with a homemade 1K probe, I have obtained a rise time of 1.25ns on a DS2202.  :)  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: rf-loop on July 15, 2013, 06:54:26 pm
FFT

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54640;image)

wondering a bit about that picture, FFT center is 3kHz (so full span 6kHz) but FFT sample rate 10kSa/s ? That didn't make any sense. Or is that zoomed in and moved to left side?


(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OW_FFT/Ow_3kHz_50Hz_FM.png)
Here is cheap Owon for around this same.
10kSa/s (original center of course 2.5kHz (0-5kHz)
Then shifted center to 3kHz.
After then zoomed in. (Owon keeps ofd course user adjusted center when zoom in for more narrow span in display)
Signal 3kHz with FM modulation. Mod freq 50Hz.
(Signal produced  by Siglent AWG - so signal itself is far far better than device what show it)



(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OW_FFT/Ow_300kHz_5kHz_FM.png)
Same but now 300kHz mod FM and modulating freq 5kHz
1MSa/s, shifted for 300kHz to center and then zoomed in.



And then just also for fun.

(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OW_FFT/Ow_162kHz_3kHz_DSP.png)
 
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/OW_FFT/Ow_162kHz_3kHz_AM.png)
162kHz. First DSP (double sideband) with + and - 3kHz sidebands (3kHz mod)
and last just same with AM (carrier + 3kHz sidebands and 50% mod depth.

Shifted horizontally so that 162kHz center and then zoomed in.
(whole FFT is of course 0-500kHz (1MSa/s)

Only strange is: what is Rigol doing and why? 10kSa/s but full FFT span 0 - ? is it really not 5kHz?

If compare to Owon result... why so big difference? With this resolution it do not see noise floor between 50Hz peaks in two first images.
But about this displayed center, of course "center" is where user have adjusted it. So I can not see any strange there in Rigol for this. Just normal shift-zoom etc. User adjusted as he have want. (between natural limits (but why 6kHz)



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: cthree on July 16, 2013, 04:04:38 am
It's unfortunate that all of this discussion of the 2000 series scopes is contained in a single 104 page thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on July 16, 2013, 06:18:55 am
This seems oddly reminiscent of trying to convince you that Rigol's High-Res mode produces the same results as everyone else.
I'm probably just inviting more abuse onto myself, but the Rigol High-Res mode is so different from what I expected that I am curious to see comparisons.

How do other scopes (especially the Agilent) handle a 40mVpp 100kHz sine wave at 1ms/div 10mV/div?  Both max memory depth and 1MSa/s.

Here's the Rigol images for comparison:
Title: Re: Little problems with serial decoding with DS2072
Post by: Teneyes on July 16, 2013, 05:37:22 pm
I encountered a mysterious issue when serial decoding a well known 57600 baud serial datastream. The encoding showed me some wrong characters and so I thought maybe the oscillator of the selfmade sending µcontroller device is out of spec. and I tried the "user selectable" baudrate on the DS2072 and at first I used the same baudrate there too, that's 57600. And - I don't know why - when I switched to the user defined baudrate with exactely the same baudrate (57600) the decoding was perfect :)! So there seems to be an internal difference between the STANDARD 57600 baud decoding and the USERDEFINED 57600 baud decoding in the DS2072.  Does anybody have any idea or could verify this issue on his Rigol DSO.

Yes, working with Markus,we have confirmed this Bug, isolated it
and we have reported it to Rigol support (add to Bug List??)

Display 1  Shows when the baud rate set by USER=57600 it operates correctly
           There are 13 x  8 bit data  displayed across the display with the baud rate set 

Display 2  Shows when the baud rate set by Rigol=57600 it operates Incorrectly
           Now the only change is the switch from User to Rigol fix Baud rate
           There are Only 9 x  8 bit data blocks displayed across the display
           There are errors of missed data
            Pan right to see setup --->

Display 3  Shows how when the baud rate set by Rigol = 38800 it operates correctly

Display 4  Shows how when the baud rate set by Rigol = 115200 it operates correctly

       
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 16, 2013, 08:01:10 pm
Showing the baudrate issue , on a different way,

Picture 1, 9600 bd. 1 start bit and 1 stop bit no parity,

scoop on 104 uSec per div is the same as 1 bit per division,
so you can see that the decode (green ) block is 8 bits long, 8 divisions long.


Picture 2, 57600 bd set by user,

scoop on 17.4 uSec, the same again , 1bit per division
set for  8 bits, the green block decodes 8 bits in 8 divisions.


Picture 3, 57600 bd set by Rigol,

scoop still on 17.4 uSec, 1 bit per division
now you see that the green decode block has changed in size... .....
which ofcourse is not correct.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on July 16, 2013, 08:07:55 pm
It's unfortunate that all of this discussion of the 2000 series scopes is contained in a single 104 page thread.

Why? I think this whole thread is quite constructive!

In other news, my 2072 just got past US-->Canada customs last night. I hope it comes soon!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 16, 2013, 10:59:40 pm
It's unfortunate that all of this discussion of the 2000 series scopes is contained in a single 104 page thread.

Why? I think this whole thread is quite constructive!

In other news, my 2072 just got past US-->Canada customs last night. I hope it comes soon!

it's a problem if you are not following every post. You can miss a block of good posts forever. Or if you are a new user, it's so hard to skim through the entire thread.   happens on other forums also..   I wonder if there is an efficient way to process all this info.  May be the most informative comments should be flagged somehow by readers to make them easier to find. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 16, 2013, 11:34:19 pm
[ if you are a new user, it's so hard to skim through the entire thread.
  I wonder if there is an efficient way to process all this info.  May be the most informative comments should be flagged somehow by readers to make them easier to find.
For me, I went thru all pages and deleted 5 pages worth of Posts,
where someone has quote my whole post
where I posted an incorrect guess
where It was small talk

Yes most informative comments , could be a separate Blog sort of a Sub BLOGS

Maybe :
     one for Bugs
     one for Tips
     one for Info on:
            Memory Depth
            RECORDING , just point to already RUU thread
            FFT
            MATH
            DECODES
            Aliasing
            Arguments
            Priority votes on Bug fixes
            Hack point to already hack thread
 
  Where would the Table of contents Be ???

I would be willing to quote and re posts all my Posts, would you? 
         
Who's a tech librarian?,Let's look at who's got the neatest work bench :)
             
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on July 17, 2013, 03:38:54 am
A wiki is a good solution for this kind of thing.

I don't have time to maintain one, which tends to be everyone's problem with this kind of thing, but if someone wants to step up and manage the content I am willing to host one.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 07:55:55 am
Teneyes, ve7xen:

These two ideas are great, and I think that very necessary, given the scale that fortunately is reaching this post.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on July 17, 2013, 08:04:02 am
It's unfortunate that all of this discussion of the 2000 series scopes is contained in a single 104 page thread.

What do you suggest instead?
Separate thread for every minute detail that interests you?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on July 17, 2013, 08:06:27 am
A wiki is a good solution for this kind of thing.
I don't have time to maintain one, which tends to be everyone's problem with this kind of thing, but if someone wants to step up and manage the content I am willing to host one.

cthree has agreed to set it up and maintain it!  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on July 17, 2013, 08:08:00 am
A wiki is a good solution for this kind of thing.
I don't have time to maintain one, which tends to be everyone's problem with this kind of thing, but if someone wants to step up and manage the content I am willing to host one.

It could go on the EEVblgo wiki, but of course someone needs to maintain it and organise it which is a massive job to do it properly with different pages for all the issues and content that interest people.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 08:30:54 am
Wow! No doubt, is a massive job, unfortunately I do not have experience with these things. Apart from that I have little free time.
But surely, no shortage of brave people that want collaborate. Go it!  :clap:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 11:16:13 am
Could someone explain to me why 50,000 wfs are only reached at 20 ns and it decrease to lower base time? It is due to software, hardware or both.
Thank you very much.
Cheers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on July 17, 2013, 02:18:48 pm
I think it is mainly due to hardware... Well, they have no custom ASIC.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 02:52:00 pm
I think it is mainly due to hardware... Well, they have no custom ASIC.

Yes is possible, and therefore the gds-2000a series uses a [[500Ms ADC x2] x2] to reach about 100,000 wfm/s. But I do not understand why the Rigol DS2000 not keep the 50,000 wfm/s for time base < 20ns.

This could be improved via firmware?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on July 17, 2013, 06:26:50 pm
A wiki is a good solution for this kind of thing.
I don't have time to maintain one, which tends to be everyone's problem with this kind of thing, but if someone wants to step up and manage the content I am willing to host one.

It could go on the EEVblgo wiki, but of course someone needs to maintain it and organise it which is a massive job to do it properly with different pages for all the issues and content that interest people.

This is a great idea for the site, and for anyone interested in making the DS2000 community a better place. We would be able to keep the forum to resolving issues rather than documenting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 17, 2013, 09:27:34 pm
Yes is possible, and therefore the gds-2000a series uses a [[500Ms ADC x2] x2] to reach about 100,000 wfm/s. But I do not understand why the Rigol DS2000 not keep the 50,000 wfm/s for time base < 20ns.

This could be improved via firmware?

You don't have your facts straight: the GDS-2000A only does it's 80k wfrm/s maximum with a 200MSa/s rate - 10 times lower than the 2GSa/s maximum - so 10 times lower the BW. In fact, at 2GSa/s, with it's small 1k sample size, the 2000A is not significantly faster than the Agilent or Rigol (it does a max. ~55k) - and likely slower when using the 1M sample size (no one has done tests yet).

Also, the GDS-2000A series update rate drops dramatically < 50ns - much more than the Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 09:41:22 pm

You don't have your facts straight: the GDS-2000A only does it's 80k wfrm/s maximum with a 200MSa/s rate - 10 times lower than the 2GSa/s maximum - so 10 times lower the BW. In fact, at 2GSa/s, with it's small 1k sample size, the 2000A is not significantly faster than the Agilent or Rigol (slower at many settings) - and likely slower when using the 1M sample size (no one has done tests yet).

Also, the GDS-2000A series update rate drops dramatically < 50ns - much more than the Rigol.

Wow mate! I believe you.  :)
I rely on this table:

http://www.ittsb.eu/GDS-2102A%20Wfms%20measurments.html (http://www.ittsb.eu/GDS-2102A%20Wfms%20measurments.html)

And: Let me be clear, I am delighted with the DS2072.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 17, 2013, 09:52:48 pm
I rely on this table:

That upper table is nonsense - Kiriakos didn't use the correct measuring equipment for measuring < 50ns - he claims the DSO is much faster than even Instek claims it is.  ;D

You can see the real wfrm/s @ <50ns in Grego's video when he uses a Picoscope to measure the frequency.

Here is a table comparing the update rates and sample rates of the Rigol (w/14k) and the Instek (w/1k). I'd love to see someone measure the Instek's rate when it's using 1M sample length - I think the Rigol would beat it with 1.4M:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=55148)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 10:13:37 pm
Thanks for the information marmad. Spectacular the fall for t <50ns.

Could you please explain to me why 50,000 wfs are only reached at 20 ns and it decrease to lower base time?  It brings me head  ^-^
Could be the Wfrm/s improved via firmware?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 17, 2013, 10:43:37 pm
Could you please explain to me why 50,000 wfs are only reached at 20 ns and it decrease to lower base time?  It brings me head  ^-^
Something to do with the way that Rigol has tuned the system. If you look at wfrm/s rates of other DSOs (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-7885EN.pdf), it's not uncommon for the speed to reach a peak at a certain time base, then drop off.

Quote
Could be the Wfrm/s improved via firmware?
I doubt it (at least, not by much); I'm sure Rigol has already spent much time working to get as much speed as possible out of the design.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on July 17, 2013, 10:59:37 pm
Just unpacked my 2072!

Looks like it's running Software Version 00.00.01, and Hardware Version 1.0.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 11:01:27 pm
Thank you very much marmad, I had seen this Application Note, and the truth is that Rigol has done a good job.  :-+

I am impressed with the DS2072.

I compared it (at 20MHz BW) with an old analog HP1222A, from the viewpoint of noise and refreshment, and the refreshment in both screens is very similar (as far as my eye can discriminate). And in both the noise level is very low for a BW of 20MHz. Awesome!

With the DS4000 series also occurs this fall for t<20ns? You have a table?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 11:10:23 pm
Just unpacked my 2072!

Looks like it's running Software Version 00.00.01, and Hardware Version 1.0.

Mine:
  Software version: 00.01.01
  Hardware version: 1.0

Yours is fast and loud?  :-DD
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on July 17, 2013, 11:18:13 pm
Just unpacked my 2072!

Looks like it's running Software Version 00.00.01, and Hardware Version 1.0.

Mine:
  Software version: 00.01.01
  Hardware version: 1.0

Yours is fast and loud?  :-DD

What do you mean by that?   ::)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 11:23:55 pm
CodyShaw:

Nothing bad, I'm just kidding, my apologies.  :)
In my DS2072 the fan is quite noisy (loud). But here the temperature is 30 ° C, perhaps the fan is regulated by temperature (fast).

"Let the future tell the truth ...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 17, 2013, 11:44:38 pm
That upper table is nonsense - Kiriakos didn't use the correct measuring equipment for measuring < 50ns - he claims the DSO is much faster than even Instek claims it is.  ;D

You can see the real wfrm/s @ <50ns in Grego's video when he uses a Picoscope to measure the frequency.
Grego's video (See  at ~ 12 min):
 Instek GDS-2000A Overview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbNKVD-ZoIY#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on July 18, 2013, 01:26:28 am
CodyShaw:

Nothing bad, I'm just kidding, my apologies.  :)
In my DS2072 the fan is quite noisy (loud). But here the temperature is 30 ° C, perhaps the fan is regulated by temperature (fast).

"Let the future tell the truth ...

Thought so! :-DD

Mine is noticeable, but not loud. Cold basement (24 degrees or so)?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on July 18, 2013, 01:39:07 am
Sorry, I didn't check my FW correctly...

Actual:

SW: 00.00.01.00.05

HW: 1.0.1.0.0
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: UberSteve on July 18, 2013, 09:15:57 am
Hi All!

New DS2072 owner here! Unit arrived today from Emona Aus. Unit is apparently new stock just arrived from China and reports the following info in the System Information screen:
Serial: DS2A15270XXXX
Software version: 00.01.01.00.02 (latest I believe?)
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0
FPGA version:
 SPU 03.01.05
 WPU 00.06.05
 CCU 12.29.00
 MCU 00.05

Huge step up from my Bitscope...  :D

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread, it's the main reason I decided on the DS2000.  :-+

-Steve
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 18, 2013, 02:30:45 pm
To UberSteve:
What model of probes was bringing?
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 18, 2013, 03:31:05 pm
To UberSteve:
What model of probes was bringing?

As in are they rp3300 or rp3300a ?

The "a" version are not switchable between x1 and x10
 
--
 Darryl

Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on July 18, 2013, 03:43:13 pm
To UberSteve:
What model of probes was bringing?

As in are they rp3300 or rp3300a ?

The "a" version are not switchable between x1 and x10
 
--
 Darryl

My DS2072 I got yesterday came with the switchable RP3300 probes.

IIRC, you got the 3300A probes?

That is very lame on Rigol's part.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on July 18, 2013, 04:31:59 pm
Hi All!

New DS2072 owner here! Unit arrived today from Emona Aus. Unit is apparently new stock just arrived from China and reports the following info in the System Information screen:
Serial: DS2A15270XXXX
Software version: 00.01.01.00.02 (latest I believe?)
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0
FPGA version:
 SPU 03.01.05
 WPU 00.06.05
 
 CCU 12.29.00
 MCU 00.05

Huge step up from my Bitscope...  :D

Thanks to all that have contributed to this thread, it's the main reason I decided on the DS2000.  :-+

-Steve

 
 
Congrats! Yours is VERY new. That 27 in the serial # denotes it left the assembly line the 27th week of the year, (a bit over 2 weeks ago) They must be shipping them air freight to your area.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 18, 2013, 05:11:26 pm
How about if we create a topic about the new/future verison/model of the Rigol´s oscilloscopes?  ^-^
Including: DS1000-Z, DS2000-S, DS2000-Z, etc.
With specifications, rumors and other.
What would be the suitable name for this topic?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on July 19, 2013, 01:58:23 am
How about if we create a topic about the new/future verison/model of the Rigol´s oscilloscopes?  ^-^
Including: DS1000-Z, DS2000-S, DS2000-Z, etc.
With specifications, rumors and other.
What would be the suitable name for this topic?

Rigol DS-Z Specs, Rumors, and Other (Q&A)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mickpah on July 19, 2013, 05:42:07 am
How about if we create a topic about the new/future verison/model of the Rigol´s oscilloscopes?  ^-^
Including: DS1000-Z, DS2000-S, DS2000-Z, etc.
With specifications, rumors and other.
What would be the suitable name for this topic?

Rigol DS-Z Specs, Rumors, and Other (Q&A)

DS2000-S is not so much a rumor, more a question if and when it gets out of the Chinese domestic market and to the rest of the world
http://cn.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/ (http://cn.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/) - use google translate bottom of the page
Some holds true for DG1000Z AWG's and DSG3000 RF sig gens.
I like to keep an eyes on what coming so I don't get something that is EOLed a week later, but like any tech purchase can;t wait for the next model or you will never get anything done. Just have to get the best for $$$ when you need, thats it easier said than done too.
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: UberSteve on July 19, 2013, 06:39:00 am
To UberSteve:
What model of probes was bringing?

As in are they rp3300 or rp3300a ?

The "a" version are not switchable between x1 and x10
 
--
 Darryl

Hi guys, mine came with the RP3300A, fixed 10x 300Mhz probes. I contacted Emona about it today, and they said that is what Rigol are shipping now.

Apart from being fixed 10X, what are the main differences between the RP3300 and RP3300A's? I understand, in 1X mode, you only get ~8Mhz BW anyway, right? I guess you get better SNR in 1X mode though?

-Steve
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 19, 2013, 09:40:37 am
Better image that a thousand words, so you can judge by yourself.  :)

Fortunately mine came with the RP3300, S/N:DS2A1516xxxxx

How about? New in market: Rigol's Oscilloscopes, Specs, Rumors, and Other (Q & A).
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 19, 2013, 09:58:27 am
My serial starts DS2A1521xxxxx  so thats like may 2013, about right i'd say for a 4th june 2013 assembled and tested ready to go.
Darryl

Maybe we can "refine" the date of the probes change?
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 19, 2013, 09:58:41 am
Hi guys, mine came with the RP3300A, fixed 10x 300Mhz probes. I contacted Emona about it today, and they said that is what Rigol are shipping now.
As mentioned earlier (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg258647/#msg258647) in this thread, all the materials online - at Rigol's main site and elsewhere (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/)- list the RP3300 as the probes that come with the DSO (they even have the RP3300 User's Guide posted!) - so you are well within your rights to demand an exchange if you want to - because the RP3300 is what is advertised as coming with the DSO.

If they want to change what's being delivered with the DSO, they need to change their online documentation and advertisements first.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: gilbjd on July 19, 2013, 10:13:28 am
Carrington said:

"Maybe we can "refine" the date of the probes change?"

Another data point:

My DS2072 obtained from Emona has serial number DSA1520XXXXXX and came with RP3300 probes (x1, x10). Checked out (package contents check and calibration) in the Rigol factory on 20 May 2013.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 19, 2013, 10:57:22 am
Thanks for the info gilbjd. By now the range is:

  DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
  DS2A1527xxxxx (Week 27, 2013) -> RP3300A



Does anyone know the size of the DS2000´s fan? Is 60mm?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on July 19, 2013, 03:06:43 pm
All
I found this and let Google translate it. I converted it to PDF format for all to see. Of course, the translation leaves much to be desired but it's good enough to understand the necessary info.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on July 20, 2013, 12:08:16 am
Anyway, there were also only 1:10 150MHz probes with my 70MHz scope DSOX2002A.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 20, 2013, 12:11:58 am
Anyway, there were also only 1:10 150MHz probes with my 70MHz scope DSOX2002A.

Yes, but we all have 200MHz 70MHz scopes.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 20, 2013, 12:27:23 am
Anyway, there were also only 1:10 150MHz probes with my 70MHz scope DSOX2002A.

Yes, but we all have 200MHz 70MHz scopes.  :)

Really?  I think that the real BW is a bit more than 200MHz.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 21, 2013, 06:48:50 pm
LOL EEvblog at www.amobbs.com (http://www.amobbs.com)  :)

http://www.amobbs.com/thread-5519611-1-1.html (http://www.amobbs.com/thread-5519611-1-1.html)

Chinese youtube: http://www.youku.com/ (http://www.youku.com/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 22, 2013, 06:23:13 pm
Thanks for the info gilbjd. By now the range is:

  DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
  DS2A1527xxxxx (Week 27, 2013) -> RP3300A




my scope is DS2A1521, and came of course with the RP3300A probes.   I'm wondering in the manual, they made a mistake and forgot to update the date of print ?

anyway my internal calibration ( I guess done at the factory ) was 26 May 2013.  now of course i've "unlocked mine" i've done a self-cal, and it shows todays date.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 22, 2013, 07:30:48 pm
Wow... I think we have now the exact moment in which the change was made.
New range is:

  DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
  DS2A1521xxxxx (Week 21, 2013) -> RP3300A

Thanks for the info darrylp and gilbjd.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 22, 2013, 08:17:08 pm
Wow... I think we have now the exact moment in which the change was made.
New range is:

  DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
  DS2A1521xxxxx (Week 21, 2013) -> RP3300A

Thanks for the info darrylp and gilbjd.

That was one last ditch effort to bandwidth limit the scope ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: M. András on July 22, 2013, 09:40:27 pm
this qestion is aimed for users who play with this scope for a relative long time and even have an agilent x2k or x3k series scope as comparison.

how do you analyze spi bus with this scope? 2 channel for clock data in and data out?
any quirks regarding the longevity of the scope. im seriously looking at these as the prices is damn good, even the lowest agilent model is twice the price
sorry for not reading trough a 107 page topic which i wasnt interested in before
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 22, 2013, 09:49:37 pm
how do you analyze spi bus with this scope? 2 channel for clock data in and data out?

The answer is obvious, I think.  :)
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 22, 2013, 10:08:27 pm
Wow... I think we have now the exact moment in which the change was made.
New range is:

  DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
  DS2A1521xxxxx (Week 21, 2013) -> RP3300A

Thanks for the info darrylp and gilbjd.

That was one last ditch effort to bandwidth limit the scope ;)


the rp3300a probes are still 300MHz, just down from the rp3300 at 350MHz.

--
 Darryl

Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on July 22, 2013, 10:29:47 pm

the rp3300a probes are still 300MHz, just down from the rp3300 at 350MHz.

--
 Darryl

oh I see they are 10:1 fixed.  No big deal . Almost no reason to use 1:1 unless measuring insanely low level signals.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 23, 2013, 11:01:00 am
this qestion is aimed for users who play with this scope for a relative long time and even have an agilent x2k or x3k series scope as comparison.

how do you analyze spi bus with this scope? 2 channel for clock data in and data out?
any quirks regarding the longevity of the scope. im seriously looking at these as the prices is damn good, even the lowest agilent model is twice the price
sorry for not reading trough a 107 page topic which i wasnt interested in before

Good question. the SPI interface bus has 4 signal lines. At least 3 are usefull or required to monitor. I used the I2C decoder, and that has a clock and data signal so here you have no problem on a 2chan scope.

I would assume you need to connect the clock and one of the data lines to see RX or TX.... Perhaps someone which has used the SPI can fill in.
Title: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 23, 2013, 11:03:39 am
Wow... I think we have now the exact moment in which the change was made.
New range is:

  DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
  DS2A1521xxxxx (Week 21, 2013) -> RP3300A

Thanks for the info darrylp and gilbjd.


That was one last ditch effort to bandwidth limit the scope ;)


the rp3300a probes are still 300MHz, just down from the rp3300 at 350MHz.

--
 Darryl

Would it be possible to place a picture of the rp3300a probe?, I looked at the rigol site, but could not find any.
Title: Re: Re: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 23, 2013, 11:38:50 am
Wow... I think we have now the exact moment in which the change was made.
New range is:

  DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
  DS2A1521xxxxx (Week 21, 2013) -> RP3300A

Thanks for the info darrylp and gilbjd.


That was one last ditch effort to bandwidth limit the scope ;)


the rp3300a probes are still 300MHz, just down from the rp3300 at 350MHz.

--
 Darryl

Would it be possible to place a picture of the rp3300a probe?, I looked at the rigol site, but could not find any.

Here one on the spec sheet.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/23/naqumymu.jpg)

--
 Darryl

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 23, 2013, 11:54:47 am
Ok 50MHz less, no problem.
The question is: Really reach the RP3300 until 350MHz?
I have a P6200 probe (200MHz) and his rise time is less than the RP3300. Why? No idea!  :-//
Cheers!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 23, 2013, 11:59:33 am
That looks like a nice probe, not so clumsy as the rp3300
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on July 23, 2013, 12:31:43 pm
That looks like a nice probe, not so clumsy as the rp3300

I agree - I'm not a fan of the RP3300's - I much prefer the RP1300's that came with the DS1102E.  Those RP3300A's look pretty nice.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 23, 2013, 02:20:38 pm
I rarely need to scope signals down below 5mv, so am happy with them.
As I have several leads, and most are switchable x1 to x10. Its not an issue for me, I initially found them a bit small in my hand.... Of course the clip end piece is off in that picture.

I will take a couple more clearer photos later.


--
 Darryl

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 23, 2013, 11:24:11 pm
Looking again through Dave's teardown photos of the DS2000, and I noticed a pad labelled 'VIDEO OUT' and some unpopulated footprints (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022112817/#in/set-72157631618295437/lightbox/) near the first FPGA (connected to the ADC and sample memory).

I'm really curious about this... has anyone done any probing there - or have an idea what it may be for?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 23, 2013, 11:59:09 pm
It looks like a composite video output.  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 24, 2013, 07:34:39 pm
Looking again through Dave's teardown photos of the DS2000, and I noticed a pad labelled 'VIDEO OUT' and some unpopulated footprints (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022112817/#in/set-72157631618295437/lightbox/) near the first FPGA (connected to the ADC and sample memory).

I'm really curious about this... has anyone done any probing there - or have an idea what it may be for?

is that 14 way header a known jtag for something ?  or is it a VGA header ? which would have 5 pins ?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: cybernet on July 24, 2013, 08:05:51 pm
Looking again through Dave's teardown photos of the DS2000, and I noticed a pad labelled 'VIDEO OUT' and some unpopulated footprints (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022112817/#in/set-72157631618295437/lightbox/) near the first FPGA (connected to the ADC and sample memory).

I'm really curious about this... has anyone done any probing there - or have an idea what it may be for?

if thats topside, then its the JTAG for BFIN (no other parts on that chain)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 24, 2013, 08:28:11 pm
is that 14 way header a known jtag for something ?  or is it a VGA header ? which would have 5 pins ?

There are no connections top or bottom between the 'video out' footprints and the header.

I assumed it was a composite video out - but of what exactly? It appears to be coming from the FPGA that controls sampling - not the one dealing with display memory.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 25, 2013, 12:05:03 am
Yes, it's very strange, Also the video output seems to return to the fpga. No return, out fron the FPGA!
To the 10 pin IC reach from the right three tracks: Analog RGB? or Digital? Analog Sync!
Very strange.  ???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: UberSteve on July 25, 2013, 09:25:07 am
Anyone know if you can get a front dust cover for the DS2000? I've seen one for the DS4000...

Cheers,
Steve
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 25, 2013, 11:13:12 am
Yes, it's very strange, Also the video output seems to return to the fpga. No return, out fron the FPGA!
To the 10 pin IC reach from the right three tracks: Analog RGB? or Digital? Analog Sync!
Very strange.  ???

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh1980.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh1980.pdf) 
Is a analog video sync separator for NTSC, PAL: 480I/P, 576I/P, 720P, 1080I/P/PsF
So it does have some sense. But why is unpopulated?   :box:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on July 25, 2013, 12:16:09 pm
Hi,

Anyone know if you can get a front dust cover for the DS2000? I've seen one for the DS4000...

I would like to know this too - I saw the DS4000 dust cover yesterday and thought "how cool it that"...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on July 25, 2013, 06:36:33 pm


Funny, last time i did a self-cal, on the end i got a message, not a reboot.
the message was, that is was ended, and asked please reboot.
that was nice and polite of the DSO.

First i thought i was because of the new FW, but today i did a self-cal,
and it di not show the message, but did the reboot as always..

Have somebody here seen this message also..?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sinultima on July 25, 2013, 07:10:25 pm
something is weird with my ds2202 scope, as soon as I plug in a USB drive is locks up/freezes and I can only power it off. I Tried to install the new firmware, but when I enter the update during boot my USB drive shortly flashes as if it is being read and then nothing happens. i.e. CH1 does not blink. Can somebody confirm this, or am I doing something wrong? What should I do now?

Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jonese on July 25, 2013, 07:44:31 pm
Are you sure the firmware file is correctly named as it was originally?

I had mine renamed (to help me know what firmware version it was) and forgot to rename it back and had the exact same behavior.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sinultima on July 25, 2013, 07:59:44 pm
Are you sure the firmware file is correctly named as it was originally?
I just extracted it from the zip file, was that not right?

I had mine renamed (to help me know what firmware version it was) and forgot to rename it back and had the exact same behavior.
Well, the problem is, that the scope locks up as soon as i plug in even en empty USB drive :-(

Does the scope need some crazy formatting? I just formatted with linux command line...i.e. FAT32, single partition on DOS compatible MBR
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flolic on July 25, 2013, 08:19:05 pm
Try another USB drive.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CodyShaw on July 25, 2013, 08:19:48 pm
Are you sure the firmware file is correctly named as it was originally?
I just extracted it from the zip file, was that not right?

I had mine renamed (to help me know what firmware version it was) and forgot to rename it back and had the exact same behavior.
Well, the problem is, that the scope locks up as soon as i plug in even en empty USB drive :-(

Does the scope need some crazy formatting? I just formatted with linux command line...i.e. FAT32, single partition on DOS compatible MBR

I had this problem too.

Make sure that ONLY the firmware file is on the USB stick. Delete the .doc file.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sinultima on July 25, 2013, 08:29:36 pm
Try another USB drive.
Yea, it was stupid of me to trust in the scopes ability to read my USB drives - I tried all of them after your suggestion (5 or so) and sure enough the crappiest half torn apart USB drive from china worked. The irony! Thank you very much!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 25, 2013, 08:57:25 pm


Funny, last time i did a self-cal, on the end i got a message, not a reboot.
the message was, that is was ended, and asked please reboot.
that was nice and polite of the DSO.

First i thought i was because of the new FW, but today i did a self-cal,
and it di not show the message, but did the reboot as always..

Have somebody here seen this message also..?

Yes I also noticed this yesterday....I got this message.

I did not do a self cal again, so don't know what happens the second time. I was more interested to see if it would keep my official licenses, and it did :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on July 25, 2013, 11:19:48 pm
Yes, it's very strange, Also the video output seems to return to the fpga. No return, out fron the FPGA!
To the 10 pin IC reach from the right three tracks: Analog RGB? or Digital? Analog Sync!
Very strange.  ???

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh1980.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmh1980.pdf) 
Is a analog video sync separator for NTSC, PAL: 480I/P, 576I/P, 720P, 1080I/P/PsF
So it does have some sense. But why is unpopulated?   :box:

Haha! yes, the DS4000 series mounts it.
Will help if populated it to the DS2000 series?
Is it enabled on the firmware?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: etc6849 on July 27, 2013, 07:18:56 pm
I ordered my scope on 7/19/2013 from tequipment.net and it arrived on 7/24/2013.  My serial number is DS2A1517xxxxx and it came with RP3300 probes (not RP3300A).  The software version is 00.01.00.  I'm also in the US if that matters.

If you order from tequipment.net don't forget to use the eevblog code for 6% off!  I believe the code the lady used was EEVBLOG6, but if it doesn't work, just call them.  They retroactively (called them the same day I placed the order) gave me the discount, but it's better if you give them the code when you order.

I guess they aren't selling that many Rigols if my unit is older than everyone else's...  Is it safe to update to the latest firmware if I want to use the keygen later?

Thanks for the info gilbjd. By now the range is:

  DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
  DS2A1527xxxxx (Week 27, 2013) -> RP3300A



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Kobus on July 29, 2013, 08:12:55 am
Soon after, my DS2072 "gave off the magic smoke"  :-BROKE  No more playing 'till it gets replaced  :'( 

Got my replacement from TEquipment :) . Not only did they replace it and refund my international
shipping, they gave me the EEVBlog discount as well, awesome!!  :-+

Every step of my order was complicated, First Dawn arranged next day delivery straight from Rigol NA when I bought it.
At the time I was in the US paying with a foreign a foreign credit card. I then did
the RMA internationally. I also had an issue trying to get out of paying customs and duties for the replacement unit
and paying UPS a clearing fee.In the interim, my credit card expired preventing them from being able to issue a refund.
Then guy in charge of the RMA at Rigol was away on vacation at the time but they decided not to wait and sent out the
replacement promptly. I must have dealt with their entire staff throughout the process. The were very helpful
and professional all the way.

For anyone looking to buy, I highly recommend TEquipment.net. If you end up needing an RMA you'll be grateful that you
bought from them. They also give a 6% discount to forum members, just ask them for it.

I hope I haven't overstepped forum rules. I don't have any commercial interest in TEquipment, I just felt that they deserved
it and I honestly believe that it's in forum members best interest to give them their business.
 

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 29, 2013, 09:26:42 am
Glad it did work out for you,

In which country are you located ?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Giorg on July 29, 2013, 03:04:46 pm
serial 1527xxx

confirmed with non switchable probes
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bronson on July 30, 2013, 04:11:58 pm
Anyone around San Jose CA US want to trade my unused, still in package 3300 probe for your 3300A?  Just idle curiosity.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: leafi on July 30, 2013, 10:36:03 pm
Does anyone else's DS2702 have a low frequency buzzing sound coming from the power supply area? It sounds like my transformer is buzzing. I am not looking forward to RMA'ing the scope I just got today.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bronson on July 31, 2013, 03:36:05 pm
Unfortunately no. Other than the overeager fan, this thing is pretty much silent.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: up8051 on August 01, 2013, 10:48:39 am
Quote
Serial: DS2A15270XXXX
Software version: 00.01.01.00.02 (latest I believe?)
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0
DS2A1527xxxxx (Week 27, 2013) -> RP3300A

Serial: DS2A1527XXXXX
Software version: 00.01.01
Hardware version: 2.0
DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300


Hi All,

My DS2072 I got yesterday came with the switchable RP3300 probes.

Serial: DS2A1509XXXXXX ( (Week 9, 2013 ?)
Software version: 00.00.01
Hardware version: 1.0

Probes ->  RP3300
No information about FPGA version

Is the latest firmware?
Why version numbers are in short form?

Best regards,
up8051
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on August 01, 2013, 10:57:42 am
Quote
I've noticed that with the series DS2A1527XXXXX RIGOL not only changed the probes.

UberSteve: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg263616/#msg263616 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg263616/#msg263616)
Serial: DS2A15270XXXX
Software version: 00.01.01.00.02 (latest I believe?)
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0

Leonard Tatzig: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg269946/#msg269946 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg269946/#msg269946)
Serial: DS2A1527XXXXX
Software version: 00.01.01
Hardware version: 2.0

Carrington: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg264041/#msg264041 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg264041/#msg264041)
DS2A1520xxxxx (Week 20, 2013) -> RP3300
DS2A1527xxxxx (Week 27, 2013) -> RP3300A


Hi All,

My DS2072 I got yesterday came with the switchable RP3300 probes.

Serial: DS2A1509XXXXXX ( (Week 9, 2013 ?)
Software version: 00.00.01
Hardware version: 1.0

Probes ->  RP3300
No information about FPGA version

Is the latest firmware?
Why version numbers are in short form?

Best regards,
up8051

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

To get the full firmware version info from the DSO, follow these instructions:

Go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger.
While keeping the Trigger menu open, you are going to use the 6th and 7th right-side menu buttons as follows:
Press the [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] buttons one after another quickly.
Then check additional info under System -> System Info.

Please post the result.

Note: I allowed myself to edit your post to clarify.
Cheers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: up8051 on August 01, 2013, 01:45:58 pm
Hi,

Full info:

Serial: DS2A1509XXXXX
Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0
FPGA version:
 SPU 03.01.05
 WPU 00.06.00
 CCU 12.29.00
 MCU 00.05

RP3300 probes

Best regards,
up8051
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 01, 2013, 06:18:50 pm
Software version: 00.00.01.00.05

Old FW version - there have been 2 releases since the one you have. You can find download links and instructions for upgrading on the first page of this thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on August 01, 2013, 06:54:25 pm
Anyone know how many versions of HW exist until today's date?

1.0 -> 1.0.1.0.0 -> 2.0  :-//

Thanks.




Okay I think I have the answer, just two HW version: 1.0.1.0.0 -> 2.0.
And I have the feeling that in the 2.0 Ver. they have improved the PSU and DC/DC parts.
Title: Off Topic Question for marmad
Post by: Electro Fan on August 01, 2013, 07:04:19 pm
Just checking to see if you could feed a string such as 01000001 which represents “A” in ASCII (by simply turning on and off voltage at some level (maybe 3.3V or 5V) over periodically uniform time intervals and have the 2072 decode the 1s and 0s string into the letter A?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Off Topic Question for marmad
Post by: Carrington on August 01, 2013, 07:06:24 pm
Just checking to see if you could feed a string such as 01000001 which represents “A” in ASCII (by simply turning on and off voltage at some level (maybe 3.3V or 5V) over periodically uniform time intervals and have the 2072 decode 1s and 0s into the letter A?  Thanks!

What?
Title: Re: Off Topic Question for marmad
Post by: Electro Fan on August 01, 2013, 07:56:44 pm
Just checking to see if you could feed a string such as 01000001 which represents “A” in ASCII (by simply turning on and off voltage at some level (maybe 3.3V or 5V) over periodically uniform time intervals and have the 2072 decode 1s and 0s into the letter A?  Thanks!

What?

Hi Carrington,

Sorry, that probably wasn't fully clear (and I'm sure it was off topic from the current page in this 100+ page thread, but I generally look at it as this thread as "the Encylopedia of Rigol 2072" thread), and EEV + marmad et al as Guttenberg.

What I was asking about was focused on the capabilities of the Rigol decoder option.

I understand that if you probe, for example, a I2C signal with a 2072 that has the decoder option (SD-DS2) turned on, that you can decode the I2C signal into hex, ascii, decimal, and binary.

So, my question was simply if you could deocode an ascii string that wasn't derived specifically from an I2C signal, but was in fact a legitimate ascii character (such as the letter A).

To test this, one could conceivably generate a signal by driving voltage high and low at intervals that would correspond to a given character and then probe the signal with a 2072 with the SD-DS2 option.  Whether the Decoding Table or Event Table would decode and display such a string is the question.

http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-DS2.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolSD-DS2.html)
- I think this is the manual for the SD-DS2 and I think it applies to the DS2000 series and the DS4000 series, but I'm not 100% sure.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on August 01, 2013, 08:04:55 pm
Hi Electro Fan!
Okay, now I understand.
But I don't know what result will give it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on August 01, 2013, 08:07:02 pm
I guess you can decode any signal into ASCII, but you need either to specify the baudrate (like in RS-232) or you need a data and a clock line.

It also has something called parallel decode, I'm still puzzled how that is going to work with just 2 channels...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on August 01, 2013, 08:17:01 pm
I guess you can decode any signal into ASCII, but you need either to specify the baudrate (like in RS-232) or you need a data and a clock line.

It also has something called parallel decode, I'm still puzzled how that is going to work with just 2 channels...

Ok, cool - so that would be two separate ways to set it up?
1) make sure to generate the probed signal at one of the specified baud rates, or
2) provide a separate clock line

- either approach should work fine given that the 2072 has 2 available channels
- just curious to see if anyone wants to confirm this is possible by giving it a try  :-BROKE (This icon is entitled Broken! but it looked like a great one for "please see if you can decode an ASCII string on your 2072, Thx")
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: carpelux on August 03, 2013, 12:03:59 pm
Another DS2072 buy trigged by the great work done by some people here. Big thanks to you all!

Received the scope yesterday. It was manufactured week 27 and came with latest FW (00.01.01.00.02) and RP300A probes but with hw 1.0.1.0.0. I did enter a DSAZ key by the scope keypad, and it worked a treat on first try. Scope is now fully unlocked and no problem what so ever with serial number.

Once again, big thanks to all of You!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on August 03, 2013, 02:26:07 pm
- just curious to see if anyone wants to confirm this is possible by giving it a try

Here you go:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on August 04, 2013, 12:07:24 am
- just curious to see if anyone wants to confirm this is possible by giving it a try

Here you go:

NICE!!

PAOPBZ - any chance you can walk us through the steps you took to do that?

Thanks!  EF
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on August 04, 2013, 10:25:25 am
I'm also curious as to how you manage to achieve this. Please do tell us your set up as I want to try this out for myself as well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on August 04, 2013, 04:58:45 pm
It is really very easy: Hook one channel up to the output of an RS232 port, press one of the decode buttons and set up the parameters, see attachment 1. Then send you character(s) over the line and enjoy. There is also a cute event table, see attachment 2.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: K3KO on August 05, 2013, 05:34:41 am
I'm in the process of buying either the 2072 or 2102.  Given the below remarks.  Which model makes the most sense to purchase.

(I really wanted the 200 MHz bandwidth/ 2 ns /1.8ns risetime model but the prices is out of sight.)
   
I see there was some success in hacking the 2072 so that one can essentially have a 2202.
However,  I was unable to find exactly how this is done among the 100 pages of postings.
Is there a link which gives software (WINDOWS) and instructions a neophyte hacker could follow?

New to digital scopes and right now a bit overwhelmed with the capabilities!

Brian
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on August 05, 2013, 08:32:35 am
Is there a link which gives software (WINDOWS) and instructions a neophyte hacker could follow?

PM sent.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mr Simpleton on August 05, 2013, 02:10:50 pm
My 2072 was received today and had the following loaded:
DS2A1520xxxxx with RP3300 switchable 350MHz probes
sw ver 00.01.01.00.02
hw ver 1.0.1.0.0
FPGA
SPU 03.01.05
WPU 00.06.05
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

Have yet to crack it open to see what's inside!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: K3KO on August 05, 2013, 11:18:03 pm
Ordered today for TEquipment.  Estimated shipping date 8/23....  Rats.  Guess it's popular.

Trying to sort through the documentation.  It appears that the 300 Meg Ultra Sigma software is needed only to install USB drivers-- if you're not going to query and receive data using it.  RUU2.03 seems like a better route.

If  I understand properly the VISA520runtime.exe routines  install the drivers for you (100 meg!). Strikes me that 100 meg is a lot for just drivers.    I guess one has to set the scope USB option to PC.

The manual magically has the installer finding the drivers from thin air -- assuming UltraSigma is installed.

The fog is thick right now. ....

Brian
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on August 07, 2013, 02:05:18 am
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

After using my new DS2072 for several days.  I noticed a rattling sound when I moved it.  Having heard of this clip retainer issue, I decided to investigate, but didn't want to void the warranty.  Luckily the heatsinks and clips can all be seen from the side ventilation holes.   I found on clip and one retainer were missing.  After lots of shaking, I was able to get both of the missing parts position by the ventilation holes and pulled them out with a tweezers.

It appears the retaining loop was soldered but not good enough for the heavy spring tension on it.

<snip>

After a long absence from posting in this favorite thread, I'm back!  I wish I had more time to post here, but for now just a cautionary note...

I've just experienced the same issue as martinv describes above.  I've been using my scope quite a bit recently, and aside from it warming up, there have been some very hot days in SoCal recently.  I was working and all of a sudden heard a loud metallic clank sound.  I had no idea where it came from, but today when I moved my scope I heard a rattle inside and recalled this heat sink clip issue.

I followed Mike's YouTube video to circumvent the warranty sticker, and opened up the unit.  Sure enough the spring was not in place.  I could not find the retaining clip; presumably it fell out when I was opening up the unit.  I believe the metallic clunk I heard was the retention clip getting pulled out and hitting the power supply cover.

See attached pic (warning: very high res!).

Just wanted to post a reminder that this is something to be on the look out for if you hear rattling in your scope!  Obviously not good to have metal pieces loose around in there...

Take care folks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on August 07, 2013, 03:24:46 am

After a long absence from posting in this favorite thread, I'm back!  I wish I had more time to post here, but for now just a cautionary note...

I've just experienced the same issue as martinv describes above.  I've been using my scope quite a bit recently, and aside from it warming up, there have been some very hot days in SoCal recently.  I was working and all of a sudden heard a loud metallic clank sound.  I had no idea where it came from, but today when I moved my scope I heard a rattle inside and recalled this heat sink clip issue.

I followed Mike's YouTube video to circumvent the warranty sticker, and opened up the unit.  Sure enough the spring was not in place.  I could not find the retaining clip; presumably it fell out when I was opening up the unit.  I believe the metallic clunk I heard was the retention clip getting pulled out and hitting the power supply cover.

See attached pic (warning: very high res!).

Just wanted to post a reminder that this is something to be on the look out for if you hear rattling in your scope!  Obviously not good to have metal pieces loose around in there...

Take care folks!

Check the fan.  On my scope one of the loose parts stuck to the fan motor and was held there by the motor magnets so shaking didn't dislodge it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: SeanB on August 07, 2013, 04:54:49 am
Very stupid to rely on the solder alone to hold it in the board. At the least I would make a new one out of a paper clip cut in half, pushed through the hole and bent over on the underside before soldering back in the hole.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 07, 2013, 03:14:26 pm
Just wanted to post a reminder that this is something to be on the look out for if you hear rattling in your scope!  Obviously not good to have metal pieces loose around in there...
Hi Sparky
Sh!t , a rattle in my DS2072, and one retaining clip fell out :--
and another one rattling, I got it near the vent and working on getting that clip out, :-- :--
Now where are the loops??

What will you do?
Fix it w/rebar-wire;D or an RMA??? I have already sent my DSO back Once.
DS2A1425xxxxx
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on August 07, 2013, 04:49:29 pm
Check the fan.  On my scope one of the loose parts stuck to the fan motor and was held there by the motor magnets so shaking didn't dislodge it.

Thanks martinv! That's a good suggestion.  The loop could have lodged there, but I didn't see anything when I cleaned the back case.

Very stupid to rely on the solder alone to hold it in the board. At the least I would make a new one out of a paper clip cut in half, pushed through the hole and bent over on the underside before soldering back in the hole.

I like this idea SeanB, a paper clip is probably almost an exact fit.  If I repair it myself, I'll go this route!

Sh!t , a rattle in my DS2072, and one retaining clip fell out :--
and another one rattling, I got it near the vent and working on getting that clip out, :-- :--
Now where are the loops??

What will you do?
Fix it w/rebar-wire;D or an RMA??? I have already sent my DSO back Once.
DS2A1425xxxxx

Hi Teneyes!  I get the feeling this issue is more frequent than first thought!  In your case, it is both retaining springs that have come loose?  I could not get the spring out through the vent and had to take it apart. 

I looked around for my loop and never found it...it could still be in my unit, which is a bit of a worry, or has fallen out.  I'm going with the latter because I inspected pretty thoroughly when I had the case apart.

For now, I'll use it as is.  The heat sinks are held on with thermal adhesive, so I doubt they will fall off in the short term.  But I'm not sure about long term; the springs are there for a reason...

Likely I will RMA it at sometime, but if it is no longer in warranty I'll do the mini rebar = paperclip fix :D

Mine is DS2A1427xxxxx

Good luck getting those loose parts out!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Gecko on August 07, 2013, 07:34:05 pm
I noticed a bug(?) when decoding RS232 communication with the DS2072:

I have a RS232-like communication, with TX on channel 1 (named DC on the scope) and RX on channel 2 (named DP).
Have a look at the attached screenshots: Serialdecode1.png shows the correct decoding for channel 2 on Decode2-RX. But this only works correctly if Decode2-TX is set to Channel1 (although it only decodes garbage from that because it has an inverse polarity). If I switch Decode2-TX decoding to Channel1 (like in Serialdecode1.png) or switch the Decode2-TX to off, it decodes the RX line wrong.

Has anybody else seen similar problems?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 08, 2013, 03:26:46 am
I noticed a bug(?) when decoding RS232 communication with the DS2072:


@ Gecko
Use RS232 Triggering
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 08, 2013, 09:43:15 pm
Sh!t, a rattle in my DS2072, and one retaining clip fell out :--
and another one rattling, I got it near the vent and working on getting that clip out, :-- :--

I get the feeling this issue is more frequent than first thought!  In your case, it is both retaining springs that have come loose?  I could not get the spring out through the vent and had to take it apart. 

Well, I got 2 springs and 2 hoops out
See pic for fishing tool.
Everyone watch-out

Do I dare turn it on and have the heat sinks fall off?

Has anyone opened a DS2000 and seen any improvement in the spring-clamp anchors?


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on August 08, 2013, 09:54:56 pm
Sh!t, a rattle in my DS2072, and one retaining clip fell out :--
and another one rattling, I got it near the vent and working on getting that clip out, :-- :--

I get the feeling this issue is more frequent than first thought!  In your case, it is both retaining springs that have come loose?  I could not get the spring out through the vent and had to take it apart. 

Well, I got 2 springs and 2 hoops out
See pic for fishing tool.
Everyone watch-out

Do I dare turn it on and have the heat sinks fall off?

Has anyone opened a DS2000 and seen any improvement in the spring-clamp anchors?

Nice job Teneyes getting all that out with your custom fishing rod!!

I've been powering mine up anyways...the heat sink adhesive is holding for the time being...

I looked at the HW2.0 revision and it uses the same silly hoops!  Very unfortunate...but may be they solder those hoops better now???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jsykes on August 09, 2013, 12:56:19 am
In looking at those loops I think when it happens to me, I will heat the loop with a soldering iron just enough to melt the plastic spacer a bit and slide it up closer to the loop end. Then after removing the solder from the board, press the loops back through the holes, bend the excess length of the ends 90 degrees, and solder them back. The bummer is that you need to remove the board to get to the underside.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kliklax on August 09, 2013, 03:08:06 am
I noticed a bug(?) when decoding RS232 communication with the DS2072:


@ Gecko
Use RS232 Triggering

Triggering has nothing to do with decoding.  Separate things entirely.  You can pull in a waveform from a usb stick and use the decoders on it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on August 09, 2013, 07:53:20 am
I read that RS232 decode works fine on another post somewhere but the trick is to have the parameters set up correctly like baudrate, parity bit, etc... Personally, I've not tried serial decoding yet on mine so my input on this very limited.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on August 13, 2013, 09:21:06 am
Has this screen is a transparent EMI / RFI shielding foil? It seems a simple sheet of polycarbonate or something.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022302444/#sizes/o/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022302444/#sizes/o/in/photostream/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: K3KO on August 13, 2013, 10:12:35 pm
I thought I saw a response curve for a 2102 somewhere in the 111 pages of postings.
The reason I ask is that I want to compare it to what I'm seeing with a 1102E which I'm unhappy with.
The picture below was taken right at the output of an HP8657B terminated, measured with the supplied probe at 10x.  The voltage level is 1 V.  RMS.   Shown for comparison is the same test setup with a Tektronix 2225 50MHz scope..   

I had ordered a 2072 for hacking but I can't find anybody who can give me a firm shipping date in the US.

Has the "2102" got a flatter response curve like the TEK2225 .  A 2+ db rise shown by the DS1102E is pretty unacceptable in my opinion.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on August 14, 2013, 12:01:29 am
Original post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg262688/#msg262688 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg262688/#msg262688)
This seems oddly reminiscent of trying to convince you that Rigol's High-Res mode produces the same results as everyone else.
I'm probably just inviting more abuse onto myself, but the Rigol High-Res mode is so different from what I expected that I am curious to see comparisons.

How do other scopes (especially the Agilent) handle a 40mVpp 100kHz sine wave at 1ms/div 10mV/div?  Both max memory depth and 1MSa/s.


So I made the screenshots for you. I think that it's OK. No aliasing at all.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on August 14, 2013, 01:23:22 am
I thought I saw a response curve for a 2102 somewhere in the 111 pages of postings.
The reason I ask is that I want to compare it to what I'm seeing with a 1102E which I'm unhappy with.
The picture below was taken right at the output of an HP8657B terminated, measured with the supplied probe at 10x.  The voltage level is 1 V.  RMS.   Shown for comparison is the same test setup with a Tektronix 2225 50MHz scope..   

I had ordered a 2072 for hacking but I can't find anybody who can give me a firm shipping date in the US.

Has the "2102" got a flatter response curve like the TEK2225 .  A 2+ db rise shown by the DS1102E is pretty unacceptable in my opinion.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg231182/#msg231182 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg231182/#msg231182)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg270634/#msg270634 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg270634/#msg270634)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg254819/#msg254819 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg254819/#msg254819)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: K3KO on August 14, 2013, 01:57:20 am
Thanks Carrington, the WIM13 curves were what I was looking for. 
Evidently the Vertical Input channels for the DS1102 are deficient -- at least in my case.  I suspect is is the design since both channels exhibit the exact same trand.

Yes, I did the self calibration (several times in fact).  The Tektronix result indicates that the generator output appears quite constant over the range of frequencies looked at (it had better be since the generator was recalibrated professionally not too long ago at significant expense).

I can't live with 25% errors in measured voltages over the 20-70 MHz range.   I'm going to try and see if the unit can be returned as being defective.   
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: K3KO on August 14, 2013, 06:10:11 pm
Looking further into the "vertical amp" response of the DS1102E,  I attached the Tektronix probe, compensated it and ran a frequency response curve.

VIOLA.  The response flattens to acceptable levels and barely makes the 100 MHz rating.

The supplied probes are crummy....

Brian
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: etc6849 on August 19, 2013, 04:13:07 am
Newbie X-Y plotting question:

I was trying to display oscillofun Oscillofun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4YyI6_y6kw#) on my Rigol DS2072 (aka DS2202) , hacked and running the latest firmware.

It seems it only displays normally with a sample rate of 1GSa/s and a memory depth of only 700 pts.  If I try to increase the memory depth, the display gets very very slow at updates (basically unusable).  I also noticed that the manual states memory depth is not applicable to X-Y mode, but the option is not grayed out and you can actually change it?!?  Any advice?  I'd also like to use persistTime in X-Y mode, but this option is grayed out; while the manual does not state it is not available?!?

I must say, I'm very jealous of Dave's Agilent he used in the YouScope video.  It seemed to work much much better in X-Y mode than my Rigol DS2072?!?  I also tried YouScope, but the display was nothing like the Agilent 2024A in the Dave's video (starting at ~3m 28s): EEVblog #153 - YouScope Demo on a Digital Scope (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxlCoKN4W7c#ws)

Could it be that the Agilent 2000 series scopes out perform the DS2072 in X-Y mode by leaps and bounds or is there some setting I'm missing?!?

The manual states:
"The following functions are not available in X-Y mode:
Auto measure, cursor measure, math operation, reference waveform, delayed sweep, vector display, HORIZONTAL POSITION, trigger control, memory depth, acquisition mode, Pass/Fail test and waveform record."
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on August 19, 2013, 12:39:54 pm
I was trying to display oscillofun Oscillofun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4YyI6_y6kw#) on my Rigol DS2072 (aka DS2202) , hacked and running the latest firmware.

It seems it only displays normally with a sample rate of 1GSa/s and a memory depth of only 700 pts.  If I try to increase the memory depth, the display gets very very slow at updates (basically unusable).

In X-Y mode you are not really capturing a waveform, it's more like watchin a movie, so what you want is the fastest screen update possible. I'm not sure why you can even increase the memory depth, it makes no sense to me, you don't want any memory at all in this mode. If (and it looks like they do) you only update the screen after capturing a full memory worth of data things will get slow. So while it is normal what you are seeing I have no idea what Rigol is doing with memory in X-Y mode.

 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on August 19, 2013, 01:35:13 pm
I had ordered a 2072 for hacking but I can't find anybody who can give me a firm shipping date in the US.

Can you measure the frequency response when you receive it?
Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: K3KO on August 19, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
Not even ordered.  I believe the freq response of the 2xxx series scopes is given here.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=57539 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=57539)

Brian
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on August 19, 2013, 07:47:04 pm
Not even ordered.  I believe the freq response of the 2xxx series scopes is given here.
...
Brian
Yes, I know, is just to have another reference.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on August 21, 2013, 11:35:24 pm
Has this screen is a transparent EMI / RFI shielding foil? It seems a simple sheet of polycarbonate or something.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022302444/#sizes/o/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/8022302444/#sizes/o/in/photostream/)
I'm not the only one who thinks so.
But the conductive surface should be behind. And it can be checked only if someone have this side accessible, not my case.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on August 22, 2013, 12:46:40 am
Anyone hear from Marmad? - maybe just on vacation, seems like the longest he hasn't posted on this thread since page 1.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: poida_pie on August 22, 2013, 01:38:18 am
It seems to me that the firmware bug
from page one of this massive thread
" 14) Bus decoding does not decode the full ASCII set. Missing characters:[ . , : ; - _ ! " § $ % & / ( ) = ? ] - everything between square brackets (except spaces).
[FW v.00.01.00.02? / FW v.00.01.00.05 / FW v.01.00.00.03 / FW v.01.01.00.02]"

has now been fixed in fw 00.01.01.00.02
At least in my testing at 9600 baud the DS2072 of mine shows nearly all characters from 32 (dec) to 47 (dec) inclusive in an accurate way.

See attached screen print.

(Test conditions:  Arduino, softwareserial library using pin 4 for TX data. I toggled pin 10 to give a good trigger point for the DSO, this is shown in ch2 trace.)

So this is good news, eh?
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on August 22, 2013, 01:54:50 am
It seems to me that the firmware bug
from page one of this massive thread
" 14) Bus decoding does not decode the full ASCII set. Missing characters:[ . , : ; - _ ! " § $ % & / ( ) = ? ] - everything between square brackets (except spaces).
[FW v.00.01.00.02? / FW v.00.01.00.05 / FW v.01.00.00.03 / FW v.01.01.00.02]"

has now been fixed in fw 00.01.01.00.02
At least in my testing at 9600 baud the DS2072 of mine shows nearly all characters from 32 (dec) to 47 (dec) inclusive in an accurate way.

See attached screen print.

(Test conditions:  Arduino, softwareserial library using pin 4 for TX data. I toggled pin 10 to give a good trigger point for the DSO, this is shown in ch2 trace.)

So this is good news, eh?

Very good news, and very good work!  Nice work!

Gald to see the characters are there, but a question:

In looking at various publications of ASCII tables they seem to show characters 32-47 in charts like this:

http://www.ascii.cl/ (http://www.ascii.cl/)

This seems to show a somewhat different list/order for 32-47; maybe Rigol lists them in a different order?

EDIT:  - after studying it more closely the order looks fine, I think it's good!

Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on August 22, 2013, 03:42:21 am
Not sure if this bug has been noted yet, but if it is in screensaver mode when you power it down, it will be in screensaver mode as soon as you power it up...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: lemon on August 22, 2013, 03:57:55 pm
This seems oddly reminiscent of trying to convince you that Rigol's High-Res mode produces the same results as everyone else.
I'm probably just inviting more abuse onto myself, but the Rigol High-Res mode is so different from what I expected that I am curious to see comparisons.

How do other scopes (especially the Agilent) handle a 40mVpp 100kHz sine wave at 1ms/div 10mV/div?  Both max memory depth and 1MSa/s.

Here's the Rigol images for comparison:


(Original post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg262688/#msg262688 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg262688/#msg262688))

From what I can see, there is fw bug there. The 40mV of wave doesn't cover four divisions neither at high or low resolution.

Some captures from Owon SDS7102. No aliasing at all, right trigger appearing.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/?action=dlattach;attach=58289;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/?action=dlattach;attach=58291;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on August 23, 2013, 04:18:28 pm
From what I can see, there is fw bug there. The 40mV of wave doesn't cover four divisions neither at high or low resolution.
Those were both high res.  The difference was the sample rate. When I used "Normal" instead of "High Res" Acquisiton, the waveform was fine.  There's some kind of aliasing going on, taking the 40mV, 100kHz signal and displaying it (at 1GSa/s) as 2mV, 2.33kHz, or (at 1MSa/s) as 10mV, 12kHz.  Stopping the scope and zooming in, the 100kHz, 40mV waveform will be there: I'm pretty sure the Ultravision "High Res" happens when converting the acquired samples to display and does not affect acquisition at all.

Thanks for providing another comparison! In your Owon example, is that with high res acquisition? What happens when you drop the sample rate down to 1MSa/s?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: lemon on August 23, 2013, 06:55:30 pm
I see now but I am not familiar with the menu and philosophy of Rigol.

The Owon has a different firmware philosophy. It doesn't follow the logical of Normal and High Resolution (at least not in this way).
There is the Acquisition Mode (Normal, Peak and Average) and the Memory Length (1k, 10k, 100k, 1M, 10M). You set the Acquis. Mode and Length of Memory and the Sampling is automatic according to Time base. If you see at the first capture with 1ms, it automaticaly sets 500MS/sec but at the second that is in stop mode (not running) with 5us Time base the Sampling sets to 1GS/sec.

I hope to don't confuse you, now...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on September 16, 2013, 08:21:24 pm
Self Calibration

How well does the 'Self-Cal' work for your DS2000?

For No input , after a 'Self-Cal' ,
I seem to consistently get:
     Channel 1    -125uV
     Channel 2       25uV

Looks like Chan. 2 is better

Note:   20MHz BW , 1msdiv  128 Averaging

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bronson on September 17, 2013, 07:12:11 pm
By "no input" do you mean grounded or floating?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on September 17, 2013, 07:45:43 pm
By "no input" do you mean grounded or floating?

Floating or 50 Ohm terminations , not much different
most is RF interference + Noise inside
more to show the Display offset after Cali.
Temperature has effect.

after 36 hours
      Chan. 1       20uV  better
and
      Chan. 2   +130uV off

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kv3x on September 19, 2013, 05:33:08 am
Ordered my DS2072 from Pete at TEquipment.net.  Received the EEVblog discount when I mentioned I heard of them from this place.  Really helpful and prompt order processing and shipment.  Hope to see it Monday or Tuesday next week...  Can't wait to play around with the scope, based on all I have read here.   :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on September 27, 2013, 11:05:34 pm
Quiet Thread now, everyone gone to hacksville ;D

Just wanted to post a reminder that this is something to be on the look out for if you hear rattling in your scope!  Obviously not good to have metal pieces loose around in there...
Hi Sparky
Sh!t , a rattle in my DS2072, and one retaining clip fell out :--
and another one rattling, I got it near the vent and working on getting that clip out, :--

Just an Update
Rigol issued an RMA to me
Rigol also sent me a prepaid shipping Label with tracking
I tracked the shipment to Rigol and 40 hours after it arrived at Rigol (NA) it was shipped back to me.
Fast service for me. .

Thanks for update Teneyes -- am glad Rigol fixed this issue for you, with excellent RMA service.  I will probably go through this processes to fix the springs on my unit by the end of the year.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kv3x on September 29, 2013, 12:40:50 am
I ordered my DS2072 on September 16 from TEquipment, it shipped on the 17th, and was received on the 23rd.  Great service and prompt shipping!

So, my unit shows the following:

Serial - DS2A1534xxxxxx
S/W version - 00.01.01
H/W version - 2.0

It looks like it was manufactured between August 19 and the 25th.  The RP3300A (10x) probes were included.

Used RiGen version 2b1 on an old XP netbook.  It took only a minute and worked great to unlock all the options.  Thanks to EEVblog for all the info!

Now, for the life of me, I cannot get the extended system info, even before the "upgrade".  I read marmad's instructions on the first page of this thread, but just can't get the right keystroke combination.  Did something change?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kv3x on September 29, 2013, 06:46:26 am
With the patient guidance and assistance of Teneyes, I was *finally* able to obtain the extra system information of my DS2072.  I won't admit here, in public, the stupid thing I did along the way.

Here's how it reads:

Model:   DS2202   (after the hack found here)
Serial:  DS2A15340xxxx
Software version:  00.01.01.00.02
Hardware version:  1.0.2.0.0
FPGA version: 
                   SPU  03.01.05
                   WPU  00.06.05
                   CCU  12.29.00
                   MCU  00.05

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndreaEl on October 08, 2013, 05:41:41 pm
Finally i have a Rigol DS2072

My system information are:

Model:   DS2072
Serial:  DS2A15320xxxx
Software version:  00.01.01.00.02
Hardware version:  1.0.2.0.0
FPGA version:
                   SPU  03.01.05
                   WPU  00.06.05
                   CCU  12.29.00
                   MCU  00.05

Calibration date: 15-Aug-2013


Probe: Rigol RP3300A - Fixed 10:1 Probe
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: stormbr on October 17, 2013, 01:18:35 am
DS2072 here too, let's to the point..

Model: 2202 (after hack)
Serial: DS2A15350XXXX
Software version: 00.01.01.00.02
Hardware version: 1.0.2.0.0
FPGA version:
                    SPU: 03.01.05
                    WPU: 00.06.05
                    CCU: 12.29.00
                    MCU: 02.12

I wanna do test with others keygens and did wanna know how to do for uninstall the current hack ?

Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kizzap on October 17, 2013, 08:06:23 am
Hey guys, a pretty insignificant question that should be easy to answer, and I don't think it really deserves it's own thread.

Is there any way to simply press a button and have what ever channel you are using to bring itself to the centre of the screen? It's just a PITA to have to manually scroll the 5 volts or so up to where the trace is when I go from 5V/div to 10mV/div.

thanks

-kizzap
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on October 17, 2013, 08:23:28 am
kizzap, try pushing the knob you are rotating.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kizzap on October 17, 2013, 08:31:06 am
kizzap, try pushing the knob you are rotating.

Pushing the knob I am turning (the smaller knob for the channel) puts zero volts onto the centre of the horizontal vertical division. Maybe I need to change a setting somewhere.

-kizzap

edit:fixed mistake
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on October 17, 2013, 08:51:23 am
Set the coupling to AC mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kizzap on October 17, 2013, 10:08:34 am
Set the coupling to AC mode.

Perfect! Thankyou from a Oscilloscope noob.

-kizzap
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on October 17, 2013, 04:03:47 pm
Pushing the knob I am turning (the smaller knob for the channel) puts zero volts onto the centre of the horizontal vertical division. Maybe I need to change a setting somewhere.

For when DC coupling is important, (from memory) there is a setting in the Utility->System menu called "VerticalExp" which is "Ground" by default.  I use "Center".  With it set to Center, whatever is in the center of the screen stays there as I change the vertical resolution.  So say I want to watch a 5V signal.  I start at 2V/div, spin the little knob to get the 5V signal on the center graticule, then start turning the big knob to zoom in, making small adjustments to the little knob as needed.  There is a limit to how far you can zoom in this way.  You can zoom in more with a 10x probe than with a 1x probe (since the maximum offset doesn't get scaled.)  Getting the signal centered this way takes hardly any time at all, though it's certainly not quite as easy as pressing a single button.

I've been doing this a lot lately, as I'm looking at small, low frequency stuff (which would be lost in the noise with ac coupling), putting the scope into roll mode at like 2s/div and watching the trace go by. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kizzap on October 18, 2013, 12:58:49 am
Pushing the knob I am turning (the smaller knob for the channel) puts zero volts onto the centre of the horizontal vertical division. Maybe I need to change a setting somewhere.

For when DC coupling is important, (from memory) there is a setting in the Utility->System menu called "VerticalExp" which is "Ground" by default.  I use "Center".  With it set to Center, whatever is in the center of the screen stays there as I change the vertical resolution.  So say I want to watch a 5V signal.  I start at 2V/div, spin the little knob to get the 5V signal on the center graticule, then start turning the big knob to zoom in, making small adjustments to the little knob as needed.  There is a limit to how far you can zoom in this way.  You can zoom in more with a 10x probe than with a 1x probe (since the maximum offset doesn't get scaled.)  Getting the signal centered this way takes hardly any time at all, though it's certainly not quite as easy as pressing a single button.

I've been doing this a lot lately, as I'm looking at small, low frequency stuff (which would be lost in the noise with ac coupling), putting the scope into roll mode at like 2s/div and watching the trace go by.

 :-+ Exactly what I was after, I am mucking around with a power supply design, testing output ripple which you do kinda need to know in relation with the output voltage.

As an aside note, I found that using AC coupling, the ripple existed between -3 and -10mV, as in not symetric about "0" Volts. I'm assuming that this is to be expected?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on November 04, 2013, 02:47:41 am
Last January, marmad wrote:

How could BMPs be faster than PNGs? They are often ~100x bigger - and writing to an external device usually requires more time than processing - although I can't say I've actually timed saving BMPs on the DS2000. Also, I don't know if the brand of USB stick you're using (or FW 01.00.02) affects save/transfer rates - but my timed speeds are:

My Rigol takes ~15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick.

This isn't quite accurate.  Your 15 secs is the time to first convert the BMP to a PNG internally, THEN write it to USB.  As you correctly pointed out, PNGs are vastly smaller, and would thus write out much more quickly.

Quote
The Rigol UltraVision Utilities take ~2.3 seconds using USB to transfer, convert & save a BMP (all bitmap transfers from the DSO are BMP - conversion to other formats is handled by RUU).

That implies the actual data transfer rate over USB is in excess of 490 kB/sec (since a bit of that 2.3 sec is used on the PC side for conversion from BMP to PNG).  That's assuming the images are 24-bits deep (x800 x480, or 1125 kB each).  Of course, writing to a USB stick may be a bit slower, or a lot slower, depending on the stick.  But if you did write a screen image out in BMP format, and timed it, I suspect you'd find it would be much less than 15 secs. 

Since the actual transfer rate would be the same in both cases (using the same stick), and the sizes of the PNG and BMP are both known, you could then calculate the separate contributions from transfers and BMP conversions.  (First factor out the fixed transfer rate, then determine the conversion overhead.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on November 16, 2013, 10:31:55 am
@Mark_O
, I find using RUU just great , capture DSO data to files quickly on my PC then quicky forward to reports, E-mail.
Also RUU captures the Menu so the pictures explains the Setup
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on November 16, 2013, 10:44:53 pm
I find using RUU just great , capture DSO data to files quickly on my PC then quicky forward to reports, E-mail.
Also RUU captures the Menu so the pictures explains the Setup

Thanks, Teneyes.  Does RUU create the stacked menus on the side, or was that your composite?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 17, 2013, 01:50:46 am
Those were both high res.  The difference was the sample rate. When I used "Normal" instead of "High Res" Acquisiton, the waveform was fine.  There's some kind of aliasing going on, taking the 40mV, 100kHz signal and displaying it (at 1GSa/s) as 2mV, 2.33kHz, or (at 1MSa/s) as 10mV, 12kHz.  Stopping the scope and zooming in, the 100kHz, 40mV waveform will be there: I'm pretty sure the Ultravision "High Res" happens when converting the acquired samples to display and does not affect acquisition at all.
Interesting, I see it's the same with the DS2000.  I've come to a similar conclusion about High Res acquisition mode in my experiments with the DS1000Z - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-522-rigol-ds1000z-oscilloscope-quick-look/msg331537/#msg331537 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-522-rigol-ds1000z-oscilloscope-quick-look/msg331537/#msg331537)

I feel Rigol are cheating somewhat.  Instead of oversampling and filtering at acquisition time they are simply doing it as a math operation at display rendering time.  This means it further low-pass filters the traces before displaying them.  So, not actually an acquisition mode at all.  :(

The DS4000 better not have the same flaw.  It's got a price tag that warrants this done properly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 17, 2013, 04:17:35 am
Interesting, I see it's the same with the DS2000.  I've come to a similar conclusion about High Res acquisition mode in my experiments with the DS1000Z
This was already discussed in-depth in this thread back around this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg246407/#msg246407).

Quote
I feel Rigol are cheating somewhat.  Instead of oversampling and filtering at acquisition time they are simply doing it as a math operation at display rendering time.  This means it further low-pass filters the traces before displaying them.  So, not actually an acquisition mode at all.  :(
Cheating compared to who? From the material I've read, at least both Agilent and Tektronix (and perhaps others) do it the same way. This just seems like another case of a feature not working the way that you expected (or prefer) that it worked.

To quote from the Agilent DSO-3000X Users Guide:

"High Resolution mode averages sequential sample points within the same acquisition. An extra bit of vertical resolution is produced for every factor of 2 averages....

The number of extra bits of vertical resolution is dependent on the time per division setting (sweep speed) of the oscilloscope. The slower the time/div setting, the greater the number of samples that are averaged together for each display point...

High Resolution mode limits the oscilloscope's real- time bandwidth because it effectively acts like a low-pass filter."



So yes, just like other manufacturers' implementations of High Resolution mode, Rigol's implementation acts exactly the same way - and will filter the waveform (and cause anti-aliasing if the effective sample rate is reduced too far for the incoming signal).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 17, 2013, 07:06:03 am
"within the same acquisition" means oversampling.  Oversampling is done at acquisition time before storing each high-res sample.  Yes there is a filtering effect, but this is firstly applied to the "oversampled" data rather than the final trace samples.  How much the filter affects the trace samples is often definable.

Agilent have done it correctly, unlike Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on November 17, 2013, 07:50:13 am
So yes, just like other manufacturers' implementations of High Resolution mode, Rigol's implementation acts exactly the same way - and will filter the waveform (and cause anti-aliasing if the effective sample rate is reduced too far for the incoming signal).

Compare these two:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=57529;image)
and
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=55051;image)

See that the sample rate is 1Gsa/s in my screenshot, which should leave plenty of effective sample rate for a 100kHz signal.  Agilent produces the results I expected, and with far less sample rate.  As far as I can see, the Rigol is not acting the same way as the Agilent.

The complaint isn't just that "high res" happens post acquisition, but that Rigol's "one pixel per column" algorithm aliases out components that are too high frequency for the current time base.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Tasman on November 17, 2013, 09:49:58 am
The complaint isn't just that "high res" happens post acquisition, but that Rigol's "one pixel per column" algorithm aliases out components that are too high frequency for the current time base.

What's the point of using high resolution mode for display of an envelope?  If you use normal aquisition mode the Rigol display looks exactly the same as Agilent and accomplishes all you could wish for. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 17, 2013, 02:03:21 pm
See that the sample rate is 1Gsa/s in my screenshot, which should leave plenty of effective sample rate for a 100kHz signal.

Using High Resolution mode applies an LPF function with a -3dB point approximated by 0.433 * sample rate / number of samples. To get 12 bits resolution, it means 4^4, or 256 samples need to be averaged, so that means the best-case (12-bit) bandwidth for either the Agilent or the Rigol when sampling at 1GSa/s is 1.69MHz (or 3.38MHz @ 2GSa/s).

Quote
Agilent produces the results I expected, and with far less sample rate.

The Agilent is displaying the number '25MSa/s' because that's the 'normal' sample rate of the DSO at the 1ms time base, but that's not what it's actually sampling at when you're in High Res mode.

Quote
As far as I can see, the Rigol is not acting the same way as the Agilent.

True, but Agilent has it's (HP-patented) anti-aliasing which is on automatically at slower time base settings, so it's hard to know exactly if it's random decimation is affecting what is displayed in that image.

It seems like the Rigol's BW in High Res mode is about equivalent to the 3.38MHz mentioned above at the 5us time base setting - then approximately reducing by a factor of 2 for each subsequent lower time base setting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on November 17, 2013, 07:50:32 pm
What's the point of using high resolution mode for display of an envelope?  If you use normal aquisition mode the Rigol display looks exactly the same as Agilent and accomplishes all you could wish for.
That example was to demonstrate the difference between algorithms; to demonstrate that Rigol's display with High Res enabled can be very different than other scopes.  If someone expects high res to act like normal but with a lower sample rate and "high res" samples, then they can be surprised on the Rigol. 

Naturally, now that I know more what it does, it can be a useful tool.  One just has to be aware that at 1ms/div + high res, the effective bandwidth (on screen) is like 5kHz.  High res is something I typically use after I've seen what it looks like in normal, and it can be great. I also like combining high res and roll mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 18, 2013, 05:10:06 am
"within the same acquisition" means oversampling.  Oversampling is done at acquisition time before storing each high-res sample.

1) Neither the Rigol DS2000 nor the Agilent X-Series can sample faster than 2GSa/s, so oversampling is meaningless if the rate is already at (or close to) this speed.

2) There is no theoretical difference between doing the averaging between acquisition and sample memory - or between sample and display memory (although it certainly can have an effect on the speed of the whole process).

3) The big problem with the Rigol is that their documentation is not clear on the subject.

It's impossible to change the memory depth on the Agilent, so at slower speeds, the number of bits of higher resolution is fixed. For example, at 5us/div it's 10 bits. But the Rigol allows user-definable memory depths, so it's obvious that it has to alter the number of bits of resolution at a given time base depending on the memory depth.

For example, according to the Rigol manual, the DSO gives "12 bits of resolution when >=5us/div @ 1GSa/s", but what happens when the sample depth is set to 14k @ 5us/div (meaning the displayed sample rate is 200MSa/s)?

It's clear the Rigol must switch to 10 (or 9) bits of resolution, and this can be observed by testing the LPF of the High Res mode while sending a 4MHz signal into the scope with those settings: 12 bits of resolution while sampling @ 200MSa/s would mean an effective bandwidth of ~338kHz.

So you MUST keep the memory depth set to 14MB (or AUTO) to get the full 12 bits of higher resolution - meaning that the DSO is sampling at the full (or nearly full) speed of 1GSa/s - 2GSa/s - at least until 1ms/div.

Quote
Yes there is a filtering effect, but this is firstly applied to the "oversampled" data rather than the final trace samples.

Six of one - half dozen of the other. It makes no difference whatsoever other than to the extent of how the successive sample decimation (High Res) is combined with the standard peak-to-peak decimation that is normally used between sample and display memory.

Naturally, now that I know more what it does, it can be a useful tool.  One just has to be aware that at 1ms/div + high res, the effective bandwidth (on screen) is like 5kHz.

That's the general idea, but you're off by a factor of about x4. The effective 3dB bandwidth (when using 14MB/AUTO + High Res) is roughly something like:
1ms = 20kHz
500us = 40kHz
200us = 100kHz
100us = 200kHz
50us = 400kHz
20us = 1MHz
10us = 2MHz
5us = 4MHz (the approx. maximum of any 2GSa/s DSO doing successive sample decimation to 12 bits)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 18, 2013, 12:45:06 pm
Rigol's method stores only 8 bit samples.  There is never any oversampling.  It's not an acquisition mode at all.  Any "high-res'ing" is derived, at display time, from what is stored.  It can only add low-pass filtering on top of what's stored, and what's more it doesn't even say how severe this filter is let alone have any parameters.

Agilent's high-res builds the stored trace.  Agilent's method has higher bit depths per sample point which uses oversampling when suitable.  It need not create any extra filtering beyond the stored sample rate ... and probably ensures it never does by adjusting the bit depth accordingly.

That's the difference and it's significant.

I bet Rigol's method could be, but it doesn't let you, flipped on and off - refreshing the display in either Normal or High Res without any new trace acquisitions.  Where as Agilent's method has no change in display because it's purely done at acquisition time.


Evan
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 18, 2013, 01:54:56 pm
Rigol's method stores only 8 bit samples.  There is never any oversampling.  It's not an acquisition mode at all.  Any "high-res'ing" is derived, at display time, from what is stored.
Again, it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether you perform the math on already stored samples or samples as they're acquired. It's just math. I think you're hung up on believing 'acquisition mode' means that it has to happen between acquisition and sample memory - as opposed to acquisition and display.

Quote
It can only add low-pass filtering on top of what's stored, and what's more it doesn't even say how severe this filter is let alone have any parameters.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I ran some tests on the Rigol to determine the LPF bandwidth of the successive sample averaging - and it's quite predictable.

Quote
Agilent's method... need not create any extra filtering beyond the stored sample rate ... and probably ensures it never does by adjusting the bit depth accordingly.
It automatically creates filtering by virtue of doing successive sample averaging. This is a GIVEN of the technique. Says Agilent: "High Resolution mode limits the oscilloscope's real- time bandwidth because it effectively acts like a low-pass filter."

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67950)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 18, 2013, 02:18:05 pm
The maths is not the problem.  It's the stored trace that's the problem.  One method perform oversampling and filters only to the Nyquist point and stores those high-res samples as the trace.  The other method just stores 8-bit samples straight from the ADC ... which is nyquist limited and still only 8 bits.  Any further processing cuts-off even lower.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 18, 2013, 02:22:34 pm
The maths is not the problem.  It's the stored trace that's the problem.  One method perform oversampling and filters only to the Nyquist point and stores those high-res samples as the trace.  The other method just stores 8-bit samples straight from the ADC ... which is nyquist limited and still only 8 bits.  Any further processing cuts-off even lower.

So the Agilent X-Series is sampling faster than 2GSa/s @ 5us/div?

If the Agilent is NOT sampling faster than 2GSa/s @ 5us/div, please explain to me how the two following techniques are different:

The Agilent samples at 2GSa/s and averages every N samples into a single sample, down samples, and stores it for the display.
The Rigol samples at 2GSa/s and stores the samples. Later, it averages every N samples into a single sample, down samples, and moves it to the display.

There is no such thing as oversampling when the DSO is already sampling at it's maximum rate. I can't speak about the DS1000Z, but the Rigol DS2000 series can sample at it's maximum 2GSa/s rate down to 2ms/div - it doesn't need to oversample because the sample memory already contains all possible samples that could be captured in a given time frame.

There's obviously no difference between averaging 256 samples in a row from an ADC running @ 2GSa/s - than from averaging 256 samples in a row from samples stored in memory @ 2GSa/s.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on November 18, 2013, 04:34:40 pm
I bet Rigol's method could be, but it doesn't let you, flipped on and off - refreshing the display in either Normal or High Res without any new trace acquisitions. 
I think this is a clue to Evan's issue.  As far as I know, the only time Rigol doesn't let you change the High Res setting on existing data is in record mode.  It absolutely does let you change the setting when stopped normally.

There's a practical difference between the two approaches and it affects record mode: You get to store fewer waveforms if you want the high res averaging. This bothered me at first, too, but it's never actually mattered to me in practice.

Does Agilent's trigger ever use the high res data? That's another possible difference.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 18, 2013, 05:44:44 pm
As far as I know, the only time Rigol doesn't let you change the High Res setting on existing data is in record mode.  It absolutely does let you change the setting when stopped normally.

This makes perfect sense since the stored frames are the waveforms constructed from the already-averaged samples (with the original samples no longer available). OTOH, when the DSO is stopped (when not in Record), the last group of captured samples still sits in sample memory - so the DSO can apply (or not apply) the averaging to the display memory by turning High Res on or off.

It seems to me there is some strange idea about "oversampling". Oversampling, in this context, just means using the samples which would be otherwise ignored or discarded when using a time base that normally requires a slower sampling rate than the maximum 2GSa/s rate.

For example, running the Agilent @ 500us/div gives you a nominal sample rate of 50MSa/s (with it discarding 39 out of every 40 samples). Turning on High Res mode just makes the DSO start averaging together the samples it would normally have discarded (thus the "oversampling"). Running the Rigol @ 500us/div and a 14MB memory depth gives you a 2GSa/s rate, with all of the samples ready to be averaged saved into sample memory.

Quote
There's a practical difference between the two approaches and it affects record mode: You get to store fewer waveforms if you want the high res averaging.

I'm not sure I understand you: on my DSO I haven't noticed any difference in the maximum frames I can record when using High Res mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on November 18, 2013, 06:37:51 pm
I'm not sure I understand you: on my DSO I haven't noticed any difference in the maximum frames I can record when using High Res mode.
I admit I'm operating on some assumptions there; I'll do some experiments in the next day or two and get back to you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 19, 2013, 07:36:22 am
I admit I'm operating on some assumptions there; I'll do some experiments in the next day or two and get back to you.

I'd be curious to know what the bandwidth of the High Res mode is at each time base setting between 50us/div - 10ms/div in the Agilent 2000 X-Series.

Some of it you can calculate based on their published specs, such as 20us/div = 12 bits = 3.4MHz BW - but I'm curious if that bandwidth remains the same until 5ms/div - when it clearly must be lower due to the fact that the DSO must discard more samples than the 256 needed for 12-bit averaging.

I wish there were owners of that DSO who did as much testing and publishing about it as we have done for the Rigol DS2000. Although Agilent is, of course, much better than Rigol at providing information, even they tend to be rather tight-lipped about any drawbacks/weaknesses of certain features. ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on November 19, 2013, 08:14:36 am
Quote from: marmad link=topic=11695.msg333256#msg333256
I wish there were owners of that Agilent DSO who did testing

A short report:  I was down south, in Silicon Valley, and checked a large electronics store (Frys), and I saw a:  AGILENT DSO1052B 50MHz Oscilloscope, 2-channels for sale at $790

I laughed,  and informed the sale person, they better check on the Rigol DSO's
The sale person asked me to write the info down for them.
I foresee Agilent dropping out of the lower end market.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 19, 2013, 08:17:30 am
I foresee Agilent dropping out of the lower end market.

I don't know... Agilent has a good product in the X-Series and they've already done all of the development. It may be that they will just lower their prices on that line.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 19, 2013, 11:26:52 am
See that the sample rate is 1Gsa/s in my screenshot, which should leave plenty of effective sample rate for a 100kHz signal.
@Galaxyrise: Interestingly, the reason the 100kHz signal is so attenuated in the image you posted (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg331910/#msg331910) is that it falls almost directly in the first null point of the stopband @ 1ms/div (see image above which shows the null points of an averaging filter (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg332716/#msg332716)). Compare it to this image using the same settings as you, but with a 150kHz sine wave - which falls beyond the first null point (although still attenuated by -12dB):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67767)

Playing around with sending sweeps to the Rigol while in High Res mode reveal the nulls that exist in the stopband at each time base setting (while using 14MB/AUTO mem depth). These null points are at the averaging frequency (sample rate/number of samples averaged) and its harmonics.

Bandwidths @ 14MB/AUTO memory depth in High Res mode on DS2000

Time base  - Bandwidth (-3db)  - First null in stopband
10ms/div~4.3kHz~10kHz
5ms/div~8.6kHz~20kHz
2ms/div~21.6kHz~50kHz
1ms/div~43.3kHz~100kHz
500us/div~86.6kHz~200kHz
200us/div~173.2kHz~400kHz
100us/div~346.4kHz~800kHz
50us/div~692.8kHz~1.6MHz
20us/div~1.38MHz~3.2MHz
10us/div~2.77MHz~6.4MHz
5us/div~5.54MHz~12.8MHz
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 19, 2013, 12:32:18 pm
The maths is not the problem.  It's the stored trace that's the problem.  One method perform oversampling and filters only to the Nyquist point and stores those high-res samples as the trace.  The other method just stores 8-bit samples straight from the ADC ... which is nyquist limited and still only 8 bits.  Any further processing cuts-off even lower.
...
There is no such thing as oversampling when the DSO is already sampling at it's maximum rate. I can't speak about the DS1000Z, but the Rigol DS2000 series can sample at it's maximum 2GSa/s rate down to 2ms/div - it doesn't need to oversample because the sample memory already contains all possible samples that could be captured in a given time frame.
Except, of course, a DSO is often storing the trace at no where near it's ADC's max sample rate.  This is when oversampling kicks in.  An oversample situation is with respect to the stored trace, not the ADC.  When the trace is stored at, say, one sample per minute there is certainly some room for oversampling wouldn't you think?

There is a distinct acquisition mode change here, it changes the content of the stored samples.  The Rigol's don't attempt to perform this function and therefore are not implementing a high-res acquisition mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 19, 2013, 12:46:35 pm
I bet Rigol's method could be, but it doesn't let you, flipped on and off - refreshing the display in either Normal or High Res without any new trace acquisitions.
I think this is a clue to Evan's issue.  As far as I know, the only time Rigol doesn't let you change the High Res setting on existing data is in record mode.  It absolutely does let you change the setting when stopped normally.
The setting is editable but it doesn't action until the next capture.  I was only giving an example of what could happen because the stored trace is no different between Normal mode and High Res mode.  Which is not the case on scopes that have a true high-res acquisition mode.

I can assure you this is a big issue for everyone.  Rigol's High Res mode should be avoided.  It will create problems if used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 19, 2013, 12:55:45 pm
There is a distinct acquisition mode change here, it changes the content of the stored samples.  The Rigol's don't attempt to perform this function and therefore are not implementing a high-res acquisition mode.

Wrong. Acquisition modes change what is shown on the oscilloscope screen. There is sample memory and there is display memory. Whether a mode changes what is stored in the sample memory - or whether it performs the math between sample and display memory - is the prerogative of the DSO manufacturer. As I've mentioned half a dozen times already, there is NO MATHEMATICAL DIFFERENCE (except for speed) in performing successive sample averaging on samples as they arrive from the ADC @ 2GSa/s - or performing it on samples that have been saved in sample memory @ 2GSa/s.

I can clearly see the effects of the successive sample averaging filter on my Rigol DS2000 with simple sweep tests - as I've posted here. Whether it works correctly on your slower (and less capable) DS1000Z, I couldn't say - but it's certainly implemented on my DS2000.

I was only giving an example of what could happen because the stored trace is no different between Normal mode and High Res mode.  Which is not the case on scopes that have a true high-res acquisition mode.

Sorry, you're just spouting nonsense that's not backed up with any data (as usual). Successive sample averaging can be performed on a stored waveform at any time - it just requires a single waveform (whereas successive capture averaging, which requires multiple waveforms, can not). Of course, the speed at which that waveform was sampled will effect the LPF of the averaging - but other than that, it makes no difference.

I can assure you this is a big issue for everyone.  Rigol's High Res mode should be avoided.  It will create problems if used.

 ;D  Avoid it on your DSO if you want... I've already posted the stopband frequencies for the High Res averaging on the DS2000 from 5us-10ms here. Other users just need to be aware of them to use High Res problem-free.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 19, 2013, 01:38:24 pm
Display rendering is separate from acquisition.

High-res acquisition mode operates in oversampling only, not the stored trace.  The stored trace is the end result of acquisition.  All the filtered frequencies are beyond the Nyquist point.

Rigol doesn't do this, so, although it is high-res, it's not an acquisition mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 19, 2013, 02:18:24 pm
High-res acquisition mode operates in oversampling only

No, it CAN use oversampling - but it's not a prerequisite. Just look at the specs for the Agilent 2000 X-Series High Res mode at the following time base settings:

2us   = normal sample rate 2GSa/s (no oversampling) = 9 bits of high res
5us   = normal sample rate 2GSa/s (no oversampling) = 10 bits of high res
10us = normal sample rate 2GSa/s (no oversampling) = 11 bits of high res

Successive sample averaging ("High Res") is purely a math operation on either incoming or stored samples - oversampling can be used, but it's not a necessity.

Quote
Rigol doesn't do this, so, although it is high-res, it's not an acquisition mode.

Oh, so now you're admitting that the Rigol IS doing successive sample averaging? Just that it's not an "acquisition mode"?   ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 19, 2013, 02:24:31 pm
See that the sample rate is 1Gsa/s in my screenshot, which should leave plenty of effective sample rate for a 100kHz signal.
@Galaxyrise: Interestingly, the reason the 100kHz signal is so attenuated in the image you posted (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg331910/#msg331910) is that it falls almost directly in the first null point of the stopband @ 1ms/div (see image above which shows the null points of an averaging filter (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg332716/#msg332716)). Compare it to this image using the same settings as you, but with a 150kHz sine wave - which falls beyond the first null point (although still attenuated by -12dB):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67767)

Playing around with sending sweeps to the Rigol while in High Res mode reveal the nulls that exist in the stopband at each time base setting (while using 14MB/AUTO mem depth). These null points are at the averaging frequency (sample rate/number of samples averaged) and its harmonics.

Bandwidths @ different time base settings in High Res mode on DS2000

Time base Bandwidth (-3db) First null in stopband
10ms/div~4.3kHz~10kHz
5ms/div~8.6kHz~20kHz
2ms/div~21.6kHz~50kHz
1ms/div~43.3kHz~100kHz
500us/div~86.6kHz~200kHz
200us/div~173.2kHz~400kHz
100us/div~346.4kHz~800kHz
50us/div~692.8kHz~1.6MHz
20us/div~1.38MHz~3.2MHz
10us/div~2.77MHz~6.4MHz
5us/div~5.54MHz~12.8MHz
By limiting the BW seems to be designed for audio applications, or something like that. For now I never used this mode.
I am more interested in the ANTI-ALIASING option, I would like to know how RIGOL implemented it, what sampling method used etc...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67786;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on November 19, 2013, 03:25:12 pm

Bandwidths @ different time base settings in High Res mode on DS2000

Time base Bandwidth (-3db) First null in stopband
10ms/div~4.3kHz~10kHz
5ms/div~8.6kHz~20kHz
2ms/div~21.6kHz~50kHz
1ms/div~43.3kHz~100kHz
500us/div~86.6kHz~200kHz
200us/div~173.2kHz~400kHz
100us/div~346.4kHz~800kHz
50us/div~692.8kHz~1.6MHz
20us/div~1.38MHz~3.2MHz
10us/div~2.77MHz~6.4MHz
5us/div~5.54MHz~12.8MHz

Thanks for this table, BTW.  That's very useful info to have, and not provided by any of the vendors, to my knowledge.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 19, 2013, 04:33:30 pm
Thanks for this table, BTW.  That's very useful info to have, and not provided by any of the vendors, to my knowledge.

No problem - although I went back and edited the title of the table to:

Bandwidths @ 14MB/AUTO memory depth in High Res mode on DS2000

...because the DSO will use lower sample speeds (and thus lower bandwidths) if you don't have the memory depth set to 14MB or AUTO (and possibly 56MB, although I didn't test that).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on November 19, 2013, 04:39:05 pm
By limiting the BW seems to be designed for audio applications, or something like that. For now I never used this mode.
I am more interested in the ANTI-ALIASING option, I would like to know how RIGOL implemented it, what sampling method used etc...
Anti-aliasing is also done sample->display time, and it's almost useless since the "normal" sample->display decimation algorithm rarely introduces aliasing. And in high res, it actually tends to make aliasing worse!  What most people expect anti-aliasing to do, ie minimize sample-rate induced aliasing, Rigol's anti-aliasing cannot do.  It can make the display a little nicer looking sometimes, but I think it's generally a waste of update rate.

There have been quite a few posts in this thread about it, if you have an afternoon to kill ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 19, 2013, 04:51:11 pm
Anti-aliasing is also done sample->display time, and it's almost useless since the "normal" sample->display decimation algorithm rarely introduces aliasing. And in high res, it actually tends to make aliasing worse!  What most people expect anti-aliasing to do, ie minimize sample-rate induced aliasing, Rigol's anti-aliasing cannot do.  It can make the display a little nicer looking sometimes, but I think it's generally a waste of update rate.

Yes, and Agilent's (well, it really came from HP) clever anti-aliasing technique - which could be used between the sample memory and display if oversampling - seems to be patented. I wonder if any other DSO manufacturers are using HP's technique?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on November 19, 2013, 04:52:20 pm
I am more interested in the ANTI-ALIASING option, I would like to know how RIGOL implemented it, what sampling method used etc...
@Carrington
  Yes Marmad and Galaxyrise have discussed this back at:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg242861/#msg242861
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 19, 2013, 05:38:25 pm
By limiting the BW seems to be designed for audio applications, or something like that.

@Carrington: The bandwidth is automatically lowered by the High Res technique itself. As mentioned before, best case BW for a 2GSa/s DSO averaging to 12 bits is ~3.3MHz (0.433 * 2G / 256). In fact, calling it "High Resolution" is a bit of a marketing ploy - since it's really just a smoothing filter. The "12 bits" of resolution" are effective bits - since the displays on these cheaper 8-bit DSOs don't even have 9 bits of vertical resolution anyway. So the averaging is done to a 12-bit value - then downsampled to 8 bits again for display.

I think it would make more sense - and be more clear for people - if instead of calling the two acquisition modes "Average" and "High Res", they were called something like "Waveform Average" and "Sample Average".

Quote
I am more interested in the ANTI-ALIASING option, I would like to know how RIGOL implemented it, what sampling method used etc...

It seems to be some simple technique for reducing moire patterns on the screen - but totally worthless to eliminate real DSO aliases. If you're worried about aliasing, the best bet on the DS2000 is to use the AUTO or 56MB memory depths to keep the sample rate as fast as possible at slower time base settings.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on November 20, 2013, 04:29:23 am
This makes perfect sense since the stored frames are the waveforms constructed from the already-averaged samples (with the original samples no longer available). OTOH, when the DSO is stopped (when not in Record), the last group of captured samples still sits in sample memory - so the DSO can apply (or not apply) the averaging to the display memory by turning High Res on or off.
I had assumed that the raw samples were written to segmented memory, which would mean that the scope had to apply the high res algorithm to segmented memory in order for it to work at all in that mode, and thus there was no good reason not to enable changing between normal and high res on recorded data.

So I tested this. I generated the fastest pulse my sig gen could do, which was 32 samples at 2GSa/s.  I recorded this in high res at 5us/div.  Naturally, the display at that timebase was severely attenuated.  But zooming in to the recorded data was just like zooming in on a single waveform capture; all the data is there, confirming my assumption that the recorded data is the same in both modes.

Quote
Quote
There's a practical difference between the two approaches and it affects record mode: You get to store fewer waveforms if you want the high res averaging.

I'm not sure I understand you: on my DSO I haven't noticed any difference in the maximum frames I can record when using High Res mode.
I don't mean that turning on high res changes the record length for a particular memory depth, I mean that you have to use a larger memory depth to give the algorithm enough samples to average. If I want to capture 14k points per waveform, and I want each of those points to be the result of averaging >8 samples, then I actually need to capture at 140k pts. 

But really, I would expect a difference between the algorithms any time the scope increases its time between stored samples.  Averaging 16 consecutive points that were sampled 1ns apart produces very different results from averaging 16 consecutive points that were sampled 1us apart.  I'm pretty sure the latter is what Rigol does, and so even the aforementioned 140k pts could produce different results than 14k pts of acquire-time averaging.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Svuppe on November 20, 2013, 09:04:31 am
I'd be curious to know what the bandwidth of the High Res mode is at each time base setting between 50us/div - 10ms/div in the Agilent 2000 X-Series.
I tested that last night on my 2000X, which has the optional 1M memory option.

Time base   Bandwidth (-3db)  -   First null in stopband

10ms/div   ~34kHz   ~77kHz
5ms/div   67.87kHz   153.6kHz
2ms/div   169.6kHz   384.0kHz
1ms/div   339kHz   768.0kHz
500us/div   676.7kHz   1.536MHz
200us/div   1.689MHz   3.840MHz
100us/div   3.364MHz   7.680MHz
50us/div   6.704MHz   15.36MHz
20us/div   16.87MHz   ?
10us/div   ?      ?
5us/div   ?      ?

I used the built-in waveform generator, which only goes to 20 MHz, so I couldn't get the last few measurements.
Hmm, I can't get the table to align nicely. I hope it is readable anyway.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 20, 2013, 10:01:40 am
I tested that last night on my 2000X, which has the optional 1M memory option.

@Svuppe: Fantastic! Thanks so much for doing that!

I used the built-in waveform generator, which only goes to 20 MHz, so I couldn't get the last few measurements.

Don't worry, my table was quickly done - and isn't super-accurate since I don't have an FG that generates a very precise sweep.

But this shows that the filtering caused by successive sample averaging is comparable on both DSOs - and NOT caused by the way that Rigol performs it (as continually asserted by evanh). The tables are quite similar, with the Agilent's being shifted down by 3 time bases - which corresponds to the fact that it starts full 12-bit averaging at a slower time base than the Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 20, 2013, 10:55:08 am
High-res acquisition mode operates in oversampling only

No, it CAN use oversampling - but it's not a prerequisite. Just look at the specs for the Agilent 2000 X-Series High Res mode at the following time base settings:

It is a prerequisite for high-res acquisition.

Quote
...
Successive sample averaging ("High Res") is purely a math operation on either incoming or stored samples - oversampling can be used, but it's not a necessity.

/me goes googles for user manual ...
 Agilent has nice website  :) ...  Okay quoting the 2000 X manual:
"High Resolution — at slower time/div settings, all samples in the effective sample period are averaged and the average value is stored."

That's pretty clear cut.  It only filters the oversampled data.  There is zero filtering of the stored trace.

Quote
Quote
Rigol doesn't do this, so, although it is high-res, it's not an acquisition mode.

Oh, so now you're admitting that the Rigol IS doing successive sample averaging? Just that it's not an "acquisition mode"?   ;D

I've never said otherwise.  The only comment I've made is that the maths is not the issue.  The real issue is the lack of oversampling and the filtering cutting into the displayed trace.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 20, 2013, 12:43:30 pm
@Teneyes
@Marmad
@Svuppe


Thank you very much for all the info.
Cool people make a cool forum.  :-+ :-+ :-+ :-
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on November 20, 2013, 02:04:54 pm
I can't get the table to align nicely. I hope it is readable anyway.

Time base   Bandwidth (-3db)  -   First null in stopband

 10ms/div     ~34kHz     ~77kHz
  5ms/div    67.8kHz   153.6kHz
  2ms/div   169.6kHz   384.0kHz
  1ms/div   339.0kHz   768.0kHz
500us/div   676.7kHz   1.536MHz
200us/div   1.689MHz   3.840MHz
100us/div   3.364MHz   7.680MHz
 50us/div   6.704MHz   15.36MHz
 20us/div   16.87MHz       ?
 10us/div       ?          ?
  5us/div       ?          ?


@ Svuppe use Courier Font for Fixed Spacing
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 20, 2013, 02:38:00 pm
@Svuppe
Just curious:
You know if the DSOX2000 series gives their maximum waveforms per seconds with auto memory only, or with maximum memory too?
Thanks.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 20, 2013, 02:41:52 pm
It is a prerequisite for high-res acquisition.

When you use the term "oversampling", what exactly are you referring to? Do you mean a sample rate higher than what is normally used at a given time base (which would be the normal definition in this context)? If so, as already pointed out (and ignored by you), the normal sample rate of the Agilent @ 5us/div is 2GSa/s.

So what happens when you turn on High Res at that time base? Does the Agilent start sampling faster than 2GSa/s? Of course not - it can't! All it does is start adding the incoming samples together - so it's not sampling "over" (above) the given rate; it's just trading off bandwidth for 'effective' resolution. This is exactly what the Rigol (DS2000) does when set to 5us/div @ 2GSa/s - it just saves the samples first before adding them together later.

So in your mind, in this example - are they both "oversampling" - or is neither? They are both sampling @ 2GSa/s and combining the acquired samples.

Quote
I've never said otherwise.  The only comment I've made is that the maths is not the issue.  The real issue is the lack of oversampling and the filtering cutting into the displayed trace.

 ;D Seriously? Wow, you must be the most stubborn person on this forum (which is saying a lot). You wrote several assertions which have already been proven incorrect with data- such as:

....and what's more (Rigol) doesn't even say how severe this filter is let alone have any parameters.

Well, ignoring the fact that Agilent ALSO doesn't say how severe their filter is: Yes, there ARE parameters; they follow the basic filter formula for successive sample averaging; and they are quite predictable.

...(Agilent) need not create any extra filtering beyond the stored sample rate ... and probably ensures it never does by adjusting the bit depth accordingly.

It's obvious from the real data that Svuppe and I posted that the filtering is quite similar between the Agilent 2000X and Rigol DS2000 - with the tables shifted based on the decision by each DSO manufacturer as to which time base to use when implementing 12-bit averaging.

That's the difference (between Agilent and Rigol) and it's significant.

NO - you were wrong: the difference is NOT significant. Ignore or deny it all you want (and having interacted with you before - I'm guessing you will), but I'm confident it's clear to anyone else reading these posts.

EDIT: Yep - as predicted: ignored  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Svuppe on November 20, 2013, 02:43:58 pm
I don't believe there is anything called auto memory. At least I haven't found it yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 20, 2013, 02:51:27 pm
I don't believe there is anything called auto memory. At least I haven't found it yet.
:) Ok.

The DS2K auto set the memory according with the base time.

Time/Div  Auto Menory (One channel)
1ks             14M
...
500us         14M
200us         5M6
100us         2M8
50us           1M4
20us           560K
10us           280K
5us             140K
2us             56K
1us             28K
500ns         14K
200ns         5K6
100ns         2K8
50ns           1K4
20ns           700
10ns           700
5ns             700
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 20, 2013, 03:09:48 pm
The High Res BW table I made for the DS2000 is really rather crude - I just don't own a decent FG/AWG, so many of the values are approximations.

@Teneyes: Perhaps you can run the sweep tests again using a decent FG/AWG)?  I think you have a DG4000 series, right?  ;)

Just make sure you test with memory depth set to 14MB or AUTO!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 20, 2013, 03:17:08 pm
I only have a digital pattern generator from my omega logic analyzer, so I can't do it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on November 20, 2013, 03:35:27 pm
Agilent has a nice demo of using High Res ,
to see small pulse in the noise of a Sine wave.
 
Has anyone seen a Rigol Demo of High res?
I would think the Rigol responds the same.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 20, 2013, 04:03:44 pm
I don't believe there is anything called auto memory. At least I haven't found it yet.
See at min:2.29.

Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series vs. Danaher Tektronix DPO2000 Oscilloscopes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzbCMT36PWI#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 20, 2013, 04:07:02 pm
About Agilent High Resolution:

EEVblog #223 - Agilent Oscilloscope High Res Mode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtsE6xbwHcQ#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Svuppe on November 21, 2013, 06:13:27 am
I don't believe there is anything called auto memory. At least I haven't found it yet.
See at min:2.29.

Well ok. I guess you could call that auto memory. But returning to your original question:

Quote
You know if the DSOX2000 series gives their maximum waveforms per seconds with auto memory only, or with maximum memory too?

There is no user-setting that lets you select between auto and max. The Agilent ALWAYS use the maximum available memory if possible with regards to the timebase.
If you have the segmented memory option, you could limit the memory use that way. However as segmented memory is used for single-shot events, it can't be used to manipulate the speed of continuous waveform updates.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: evanh on November 21, 2013, 07:55:45 am
About Agilent High Resolution:

EEVblog #223 - Agilent Oscilloscope High Res Mode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtsE6xbwHcQ#ws)

Interesting.  So, Agilent are doing more than they say in the description of their High-Res acquisiton mode.  I guess that could be explained by the fact that the "more" is a display rendering function separate from acquisition.

As the commentator says right at the start, it's something to be wary of ... I guess I've been spoilt up till now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 21, 2013, 09:43:22 am
As the commentator says right at the start...

By commentator, do you mean Dave - the owner and operator of this forum and EEVBlog?  ;D


Anyway... back to measured data:

I did a more precise measurement of the BWs of the DS2000 - and came up with the following table comparing the DSO-2000X and DS2000 High Res implementations:


           Rigol DS2000 series                             Agilent DSO-2000X series (based on Svuppe's data)
Time base  BW (-3dB)  Eff.SR   Bytes Averaged  Eff.Bits    BW (-3dB)  Eff.SR  Bytes Averaged  Eff.Bits


100ms/div  429Hz      250kHz   256 bytes       12 bits     ?
50ms/div   859Hz      500kHz   256 bytes       12 bits     ?
20ms/div   2.1kHz     1.25MHz  256 bytes       12 bits     ?
10ms/div   4.3kHz     2.5MHz   256 bytes       12 bits     34kHz      25MHz   ~325 bytes      12 bits
5ms/div    8.6kHz     5MHz     256 bytes       12 bits     67.87kHz   50MHz   ~325 bytes      12 bits
2ms/div    21.5kHz    12.5MHz  256 bytes       12 bits     169.6kHz   125MHz  ~325 bytes      12 bits
1ms/div    42.9kHz    25MHz    256 bytes       12 bits     339kHz     250MHz  ~325 bytes      12 bits
500us/div  85.9kHz    50MHz    256 bytes       12 bits     676.7kHz   500MHz  ~325 bytes      12 bits
200us/div  171.6kHz   100MHz   256 bytes       12 bits     1.689MHz   1GHz    ~260 bytes      12 bits
100us/div  343kHz     200MHz   256 bytes       12 bits     3.364MHz   2GHz    ~260 bytes      12 bits
50us/div   686kHz     500MHz   320 bytes       12 bits     6.704MHz   2GHz    ~130 bytes      11 bits
20us/div   1.37MHz    1GHz     320 bytes       12 bits     16.87MHz   2GHz     ~52 bytes      10 bits
10us/div   2.75MHz    2GHz     320 bytes       12 bits     ?
5us/div    5.5MHz     2GHz     160 bytes       11 bits     ?
2us/div    13.75MHz   2GHz      64 bytes       11 bits     ?
1us/div    27.5MHz    2GHz      32 bytes       10 bits     ?
500ns/div  55MHz      2GHz      16 bytes       10 bits     ?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on November 21, 2013, 10:18:09 am
At DSOX2000 everything is automatic, LOL. You cannot set acquisition length, sin(x)/x interpolation, or vectors / dots.  :--
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 21, 2013, 11:47:02 am
Added the following table to the first post in this thread:

Updated High Res bandwidth table here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg335344/#msg335344)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 21, 2013, 01:03:16 pm
Added the following table to the first post in this thread:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67954)
Perfect, I keep a copy, for my personal collection.
Thanks.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 21, 2013, 01:30:17 pm
I had assumed that the raw samples were written to segmented memory, which would mean that the scope had to apply the high res algorithm to segmented memory in order for it to work at all in that mode, and thus there was no good reason not to enable changing between normal and high res on recorded data.
@Galaxyrise: Maybe the reason you can't switch between Normal and High Res with recorded frames is because the display frames are already "compiled" from the raw samples and stored separately in display memory. That's why the DSO can play them back so quickly. The raw samples are still in sample memory - and can be read out via SCPI - but the DSO doesn't want to alter or change the compiled frames once they're stored.

But I just discovered something quite interesting when you turn on the Analyze mode in Record.

Here is an image of a recorded frame of a 780kHz sine wave @ 200us/div in Normal mode:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67975)


Here is an image of a recorded frame of a 780kHz sine wave @ 200us/div in High Res mode. The sine wave falls precisely into the second null point of the stopband filter:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67977)


Here is that same frame when in Analyze mode. You can see the filtered display frame above, but the DSO is clearly using the raw samples for the tiny frames below:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67979)


If you then Analyze based on Trace - even though the template seems different - you won't get any errors:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67981)


OTOH, if you Analyze based on Mask, you will get errors - since the Mask is built from the non-High Res samples below:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=67983)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 21, 2013, 01:44:26 pm
@Galaxyrise: I just discovered something else: you CAN switch your recorded frames from High Res to Normal mode - just enter Delayed Sweep (Zoom). The DSO will automatically switch to rendering the frames with High Res turned-off. But once High Res is off, exiting Delayed Sweep does not turn it back on again.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on November 21, 2013, 04:29:57 pm
@Galaxyrise: I just discovered something else: you CAN switch your recorded frames from High Res to Normal mode - just enter Delayed Sweep (Zoom). The DSO will automatically switch to rendering the frames with High Res turned-off. But once High Res is off, exiting Delayed Sweep does not turn it back on again.
Ha! At this point, I'm inclined to think the inability to switch high res and normal is just a firmware bug.  They even left the menu enabled (unlike memory depth.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bingo600 on November 22, 2013, 08:39:31 am
Guyzz

I'm considering getting a DS2072A (EU / Batronix) , but i want to be 100% sure it's "upgradeable" with the nice tools out there.

1: Had anyone reported back with a positive confirmation , that the A can be "upgraded" like the Non A
2: Does it give the same features as the Non A ?
3: Does anyone know if the 2072A's are what Batronix are shipping now , or should one wait a bit to be sure to get an A'.

/Bingo

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 22, 2013, 10:15:28 am
1: Had anyone reported back with a positive confirmation , that the A can be "upgraded" like the Non A

As far as I've heard, Rigol has changed the key (or something) on the 'A' version, making it incompatible with the current hacking tools.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bingo600 on November 22, 2013, 10:30:33 pm
1: Had anyone reported back with a positive confirmation , that the A can be "upgraded" like the Non A

As far as I've heard, Rigol has changed the key (or something) on the 'A' version, making it incompatible with the current hacking tools.

Hmm ....
Too bad , i'll skip on Rigol for now , and look at some of the others.

/Bingo


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2013, 12:12:16 pm
I've updated the High Res bandwidth table to reflect all Memory Depth Settings:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=68253)

Two interesting things to note:

1) The bandwidths are similar down to the 20us/div time base setting - but the effective bits of resolution differs at the 10us/div and 20us/div settings.
2) The bandwidths of the 56M memory depth setting are the same as the 1.4M setting, except at 500us/div, 5ms/div, and 50ms/div - where it instead matches the AUTO/14M setting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 23, 2013, 08:48:14 pm
CAN-DS2000A

CAN trigger and decode for DS2000 and DS2000A.

Source: http://www.tequipment.net/RigolPricelist.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolPricelist.html)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 23, 2013, 09:00:25 pm
CAN-DS2000A

CAN trigger and decode for DS2000 and DS2000A.

Source: http://www.tequipment.net/RigolPricelist.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolPricelist.html)

Interesting. I wonder if it really works with all older model DS2000s (HW v.1)? If it does, it must require a firmware upgrade.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 23, 2013, 09:05:32 pm
Interesting. I wonder if it really works with all older model DS2000s (HW v.1)? If it does, it must require a firmware upgrade.
I hope so, because mine is 1.0.  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kosh on November 25, 2013, 04:52:02 pm
Hi,

something strange has happened to my scope. A few days ago the trial options on my DS2072 ran out. So I decided it was time for a firmware upgrade and a calibration, which I was hesitant with until now.

So I upgraded from version 00.01.00.00.03 to the latest 00.01.01.00.02 and after that I ran the calibration procedure. I have used the device several times after that and I think I even checked to see if the trial options were still gone, and sure enough they were.

Today I power on my scope and I am being greeted with the boot message showing the trial options with over 2000 minutes left again, and yes all the menus that were greyed out before are now accessible again.

I am not complaining, but wondering, has this happened to anyone else?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 25, 2013, 04:57:58 pm
Today I power on my scope and I am being greeted with the boot message showing the trial options with over 2000 minutes left again, and yes all the menus that were greyed out before are now accessible again.

I am not complaining, but wondering, has this happened to anyone else?

Many times. Before the current keygens, we would just restart the trial options by changing the date/time in combination with a self-cal. Super easy to do.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 25, 2013, 05:20:19 pm
I've owned the DS2072 exactly 13 months today (since 25-10-12).

In the first ~8.5 months (pre-keygen hacks), there were 3 firmware upgrades from Rigol (4, if you count from the Western release date).

In the next ~4.5 months (post-keygen hacks), there were 0 firmware upgrades from Rigol.

Of course, this could be totally due to the roll-out of the newer models - but I hope Rigol doesn't consider the latest version "finished" (for the older models). They had promised some 'upgrade' of the External Trigger capabilities, and I still hope they will deliver on this.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: cybernet on November 25, 2013, 05:53:19 pm
we will soon be able to do our own ...  >:D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 25, 2013, 06:29:48 pm
we will soon be able to do our own ...  >:D
Soon!!!!   8)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on November 25, 2013, 08:48:57 pm
That sounds very mysterious. I'm curious.  :)

(Hack the 2000A Version to use for the non "A" Versions?!)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 29, 2013, 11:57:28 am
Following up on some info discovered about the DS2000 in another thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg338728/#msg338728), I thought I'd post the info here in an effort to inform owners who hadn't seen it there.

The DS2000 series appears to have trigger jitter/offset in the Zoomed trace while at lower sample rates (in Delayed Sweep mode). It appears to follow this pattern:

When in Delayed Sweep mode:

Sample rate >= 1GSa/s: no conspicuous jitter or offset
Sample rate <= 500Ms/s: jitter and/or offset equal to a maximum of plus or minus one sample period

So for example, @ 200MSa/s it's equal to ±5n, while @ 10MSa/s it's equal to ±100ns.

I'm not sure yet if this is a firmware issue or not (these tests are from the latest FW version). If someone has a chance to test a lower FW version, please post the results here.


Here is an example of jitter @ 100MSa/s  (i.e. ±10ns) in Delayed Sweep:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69025)


Rigol's response to this 'issue' is here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg343222/#msg343222)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sync on November 29, 2013, 02:54:52 pm
FYI the DS1000Z has that jitter too.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on November 29, 2013, 03:03:25 pm

Has all to do with phase differences..

If you synchro the clock rate off the DSO with signal generator it stands still.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 29, 2013, 03:53:36 pm
LOL... The DS2000 and the average of everything that shakes.

Normal:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69101;image)

Average:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69103;image)

This also has to do with phase, in this case phase trigger/signal. Playing with holdoff, can be corrected.
I think that David L. Jones has a video about something similar.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 29, 2013, 03:59:31 pm
FYI the DS1000Z has that jitter too.

Thanks for the info, sync.


Has all to do with phase differences..

If you synchro the clock rate off the DSO with signal generator it stands still.

Hey Wim - good to see a post from you  :)

Phase difference between what, exactly? Between the sample rate and the delayed sweep rate?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 29, 2013, 04:02:17 pm

Has all to do with phase differences..

If you synchro the clock rate off the DSO with signal generator it stands still.
Yes, it seems logical.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on November 29, 2013, 04:13:45 pm

Has all to do with phase differences..

If you synchro the clock rate off the DSO with signal generator it stands still.

lol, Wim, what's that? of course there will be no phase variation (jitter) when measured signal is referenced to itself. But we not talking about that, but about the jitter added by trigger circuit, signal paths, FPGA design and potential firmware implementation.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 29, 2013, 04:22:34 pm
lol, Wim, what's that? of course there will be no phase variation (jitter) when measured signal is referenced to itself. But we not talking about that, but about the jitter added by trigger circuit, signal paths, FPGA design and potential firmware implementation.
Yes, it seems logical.

LOL...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 29, 2013, 04:25:34 pm
lol, Wim, what's that? of course there will be no phase variation (jitter) when measured signal is referenced to itself. But we not talking about that, but about the jitter added by trigger circuit, signal paths, FPGA design and potential firmware implementation.

Sorry, man, I don't think you're correct. The jitter/offset (which, BTW, the new Siglent has as well as shown by Herman's GIF - so arguments of analog vs digital trigger don't hold water here) has to do specifically with some interaction between the main time base sample rate and the delayed time base. There is no jitter/offset (in this circumstance) outside of using Delayed Sweep.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 29, 2013, 04:28:38 pm
Sorry, man, I don't think you're correct. The jitter/offset (which, BTW, the new Siglent has as well as shown by Herman's GIF) has to do specifically with some interaction between the main time base sample rate and the delayed time base.
Then are different and don't go on phase?  :-//

There is no jitter/offset (in this circumstance) outside of using Delayed Sweep.
It is true, good point.

But we not talking about that, but about the jitter added by trigger circuit, signal paths, FPGA design and potential firmware implementation.
Then only, FPGA design and potential firmware implementation?  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on November 29, 2013, 04:37:58 pm
It is the difference of the clock rate of the DSO, and ofcourse related to the sample rate,
and the input frequency. So you can also measure the real clock frequency of the DSO
My DSO is about 3 Khz off at 2 Ghz, so that gives an error of less then 0,25 %

If you can, slowly change the input frequency just below till just above the multiple of the internal clock,
you can also see some beat frequency wave in the non zoom window.

And in zoom mode there can be only one trigger point, that why when 1 trigger point you dont see that.
Then the DSO can compensates for the phase differences.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on November 29, 2013, 04:45:59 pm
It is the difference of the clock rate of the DSO, and ofcourse related to the sample rate,
and the input frequency.
Clock rate of the DSO? Frequency at which the signal is digitally processed or something like that.  :-//
I edit to correct it, sorry.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on November 29, 2013, 05:09:14 pm
All these test equipment has a master clock, on my DG4102 i use a Rubidium master clock,
and also for my HP equipment. And on most equipment is an external connection for a master clock.

It is a pitty that the DS2000 has no input for a master clock, that makes i more difficult
to use it in combination with other equipment. ( phase differences... )
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 29, 2013, 05:09:40 pm
It is the difference of the clock rate of the DSO, and ofcourse related to the sample rate,
and the input frequency.

@Wim: I don't see any difference in the variation based on the input frequency.

I just ran a test @ 100us/div [Zoom 500ns/div] testing different frequencies from 10kHz to 1MHz. The size of the jitter/offset is constant - exactly what I mentioned before - of plus or minus one sample period, i.e. in this case ±100ns (100MSa/s).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on November 29, 2013, 05:13:49 pm
@Marmad, thats is corect, only the speed of the phase difference changes.
Because the DSO has only one reference.

So if you vary the inout freq. the speed of the phase diferences will change,
you can see that also, change the DSO screen you see a alias.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on November 30, 2013, 12:24:19 am
It is the difference of the clock rate of the DSO, and ofcourse related to the sample rate,
and the input frequency.

I would say that "the frequency of drifting depends on relation between input frequency and sampling clock", where the total jitter (in both sample clock and input signal as well) is responsible for the maximum drift amplitude. The minimum drift amplitude (well, that's the maximal resolution) is defined by the sampling rate.

Sorry, man, I don't think you're correct.

i can only recommend the R&S article to undertsand the difference between analog and digital trigger.

http://www.ecnmag.com/articles/2011/07/oscilloscope-performance-digital-triggering (http://www.ecnmag.com/articles/2011/07/oscilloscope-performance-digital-triggering)
http://www.rohde-schwarz.de/file/Benefits_of_RTO_digital_trigger_system_2.pdf (http://www.rohde-schwarz.de/file/Benefits_of_RTO_digital_trigger_system_2.pdf)

Compare your delayed trigger picture to the typical analog trigger jitter picture in the pdf, they look very similar.
I know that Rigol said "DS2000 have digital trigger", the question is how they implemented it.

Maybe someone can check this: the LMH6518 aux outputs, they routed somewhere. I think they routed to FPGA (the one over the ADC), i think to lvds inputs and their complementary inputs (of the FPGA) are routed to the DAC/MUX. That would be for analog or mixed trigger (levels analog, patterns digital). For pure digital (the implementation described by R&S) there should be no single signal path, however lmh6518 aux is for sure routed somewhere (but that didnt means anything, it can be used as well for hardware frequency counter).

So i can only repeat : we .. talking about ... the jitter added by trigger circuit, signal paths, FPGA design and potential firmware implementation. We don't know if Siglent have delayed trigger and how they measured, we don't know if they using exact the same design as Rigol, we know the FPGA are similar - but that only one less error source, we don't know exact used pins (which is as well good jitter source), we don't know hw they design looks like, we have no idea how rigol implemented the delay trigger (simply imagine the FPGA jitter x amount of delay elements and you will destroy any adavntage of digital triggering).

So i would say, check the aux routing, send Rigol nice email then with link to R&S pdf and ask them again about their trigger implementation.

For me this looks like analog level/digital pattern trigger and delayed trigger implementation with no errors (the smallest jitter amplitude is equal to sample rate, so that's ok - but as well proof of analog triggering). But maybe i'm wrong, maybe Rigol simply screewed up delay line and maybe they do have pure digital trigger and simply forgot to advertise that in DS2000 datasheet  :palm:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 30, 2013, 10:49:14 am
i can only recommend the R&S article to undertsand the difference between analog and digital trigger.

I understand well the difference between analog and digital trigger, have read the R&S article before, and have even posted the link to it two or three times on this forum already  :)

Quote
Compare your delayed trigger picture to the typical analog trigger jitter picture in the pdf, they look very similar.

But horizontal jitter is horizontal jitter - it all looks the same. The question here is whether the TRIGGER (or it's path) itself is the source of that jitter - or something further down the line of post-processing. If it's not the trigger - than analog or digital makes no difference (in the R&S block diagrams, analog and digital are the same past the "Trigger System" module). As I mentioned before, the Siglent has a clear offset in the single GIF that Herman posted - exactly like the offset (except bigger) as in my image of the Rigol attached below - no jitter in the image: just offset. So it seems as if they are "suffering" from a similar problem - we just don't know if the Siglent actually "jitters" at certain sample rates (or the extent of it's offset) because Herman didn't post any other info about it.

What I don't understand is this: on an analog scope, a delayed sweep involves ACTUALLY delaying the horizontal deflection amp for the B sweep - thus the reason for it's name (tradition). This involves a delay time comparator, gate, etc, - all of which could introduce jitter/error into the process.

On a DSO, correct me if I'm wrong, there is no actual delay of anything - the entire process is just done in firmware. The DSO just does it's normal capture of the main time base samples - and then extracts a subset of those samples for the "zoomed window". There is no extra comparator, gate, added circuitry, etc. - just software.

If this is true, what difference would the trigger type matter?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on November 30, 2013, 01:02:11 pm
But horizontal jitter is horizontal jitter - it all looks the same.

yeah, unfortunately.

As I mentioned before, the Siglent has a clear offset in the single GIF that Herman posted - exactly like the offset (except bigger) as my image of the Rigol attached below - no jitter in the image: just offset.

offset is another thing, even on pattern or pure digital trigger one have still to adjust the hardware/firmware/software to display the triggerpoint in the middle of the screen. Some manufacturer doing this only based on hardcoded tables, others doing this based on selfcalibration. For me looks like Siglent simply adjusted wrong, easy to fix thing (remember the DS2000 500uV/DIV bug). When using zoom, there is maximal possible resolution, so depends on the implementation (calculated or hardcoded) there might be difference (and we should not forget as well rounding errors ... they very common)

we just don't know if the Siglent actually "jitters" at certain sample rates (or the extent of it's offset) because Herman didn't post any other info about it.

oh well, soon we will see a review(s), so what.

What I don't understand is this: on an analog scope, a delayed sweep involves ACTUALLY delaying the horizontal deflection amp for the B sweep - thus the reason for it's name (tradition). This involves a delay time comparator, gate, etc, - all of which could introduce jitter/error into the process.

On a DSO, correct me if I'm wrong, there is no actual delay of anything - the entire process is just done in firmware. The DSO just does it's normal capture of the main time base samples - and then extracts a subset of those samples for the "zoomed window". There is no extra comparator, gate, added circuitry, etc. - just software.

On a DSO there is always comparator or gate, no matter of you do this in hardware of firmware/software, e.g. lvds inputs, timer, delay line, counter - at the end you comparing values. And this in clocked circuit, so there will be jitter added as the FPGA and/or µC running own clock sources.

Even in pure digital way (like R&S RTO done in ASIC) where the trigger is calculated based on sampled data and with one clock source but multiple elements where their transition time variation, hysteresis and thermal noise are responsible for jitter as well (sure, at the end only fs jitter, but it is there).

what difference would the trigger type matter?

On a DSO, due the fact that the trigger is set/calculated in one (clocked or analog) path and the data is coming in second path there will be jitter. So it does matter trigger technology type (pure digital or semi-digital/analog). On DSO the trigger type (edge vs. delayed va. pattern) matters as well, as every path can be potential delay/jitter source.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on November 30, 2013, 01:04:58 pm
Now we have two discussions,

1 phase jitter, because samples are taken at a certain frequency rate,
which gives a beat frequency in combination with the measured frequency.
Wave calculations, 1 freq + 1 freq= something between 0 and 4

2 trigger jitter, digital or analog comparator.
digital gives more jitter for the same reasons, depends on resolution of sampler.

Lot of jitter anyway, but dont mix there is already so much mixed up in the DSO
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 30, 2013, 01:19:59 pm
When using zoom, there is maximal possible resolution, so depends on the implementation (calculated or hardcoded) there might be difference (and we should not forget as well rounding errors ... they very common)

...which is what the jitter/offset seems like to me - calculation or rounding errors. There is no jitter in Normal sweep @ the same time base and sample rate - but there is when the DSO is triggering in exactly the same way - but extracting a subset of the captured samples for a "magnified" display - with an error of precisely ±1 sample (combined with Wim's 'phase jitter').

For me looks like Siglent simply adjusted wrong, easy to fix thing (remember the DS2000 500uV/DIV bug).

Complete speculation on your part - if Herman had posted GIFs of Delayed Sweep @ 500MSa/s, the Rigol would have also just seemed "adjusted wrong" - as in my posted image above. The truth of the matter is that the tiny amount of data released by him does not support any kind of hypothesis of why the Siglent is exhibiting the offset error - or any conclusions about analog versus digital trigger.

Don't get me wrong: the Siglent looks like a great upcoming DSO - but I think it's impossible to judge what error it might/might not exhibit over the range of sample rates in Delayed Sweep mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 02, 2013, 08:45:39 am
Can somebody explain why trace of channel 1 looks very different if channel 2 is on or off? Look at the pictures!
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Phili76 on December 02, 2013, 09:01:04 am
Maybe because it's only 1Gsa/s when capturing 2 channels?

Philipp
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 02, 2013, 09:10:48 am
Maybe, I don't know. The over shoot with Rigot is also quite big. It should be under 3 %. Maybe the adaption with 50 Ohm feed through terminator is not very good.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 02, 2013, 09:23:13 am
Here is for comparison picture trom TEK TDS3032. Over shoot is 2.1 %.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 02, 2013, 11:12:38 am
There is always something like cross talk between channels.
To the book Rigol claims cross talk between ch1 and 2 better then 40 dB

Well on my DSO, at 200 Mhz, crosstalk is about 70dB,

See picture, ch2 is closed with only 50 ohm, nothing else.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 02, 2013, 12:17:31 pm
Thanks Wim, it sounds reasonable!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 02, 2013, 02:21:05 pm
In Pic-4 the average rise time is 1.187 ns and the average over shoot is 10.77 %. There I have used Rigols 1 MOhm 10x probe with 50 Ohm feed through terminator connected between the probe tip and generators output connector.

.... The over shoot with Rigot is also quite big. It should be under 3 %. Maybe the adaption with 50 Ohm feed through terminator is not very good.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 02, 2013, 06:33:38 pm
Probe calibration?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 02, 2013, 06:37:51 pm
Probe calibration?
His probe have HF compensation?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 02, 2013, 06:51:07 pm
In mine, just when the relay switches. The difference is subtle, but the two internal compensation circuits are not exactly adjusted:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69404;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69400;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69402;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 02, 2013, 07:42:25 pm
Can somebody explain why trace of channel 1 looks very different if channel 2 is on or off? Look at the pictures!
@EV
 Hi, Did you check the sample points?
 here are the samples @2ns with Chan 1 only and Chan 1& 2
also see the interpolation shown in pix3 of an 'Ideal' step, note the Sinx/x Overshoot
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 02, 2013, 08:32:47 pm
A touch of humor:  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 02, 2013, 10:23:02 pm
@Teneyes
Hi, No I did not. I check tomorrow.

@EV
 Hi, Did you check the sample points?
 here are the samples @2ns with Chan 1 only and Chan 1& 2
also see the interpolation shown in pix3 of an 'Ideal' step, note the Sinx/x Overshoot
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on December 03, 2013, 12:08:52 am
A touch of humor:  :)

That was good humor  :) :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 03, 2013, 08:42:42 am
Here are the sample points.

@EV
 Hi, Did you check the sample points?
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 03, 2013, 02:31:29 pm
Here are displays of 100MHz on chan 1 , using Dots and different trigger sources ,all in Auto mode:.
   1st   Triggered on channel 1
   2nd   Triggered on Ext, NO input
   3rd   Triggered on Ext with Delay
   4rd   Triggered on channel 2

Question ,
 Am I understanding that the Auto start (for EXT)  is sync'd to the trigger display point?
but Chan 2 is not.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on December 03, 2013, 04:24:02 pm
DS2000 Oscilloscope - 121 VAC Power Consumption:

Measurements are considered approximate due to uncertainty of measurement equipment accuracy, although should be very useful as general figure of merit.

Standby Mode (AC plugged in, OFF)
   W    0.5
   VA     7
   A      0.06
   PF    0.15

Operating Mode (Power ON)
   W     26
   VA   28
   A      0.23
   PF    0.94
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 06, 2013, 04:55:25 pm
In response to the question of the jitter present in the Delayed Sweep mode (and whether it was a bug), a Rigol rep. wrote:

"I'm afraid it is universal "issues" of system, when the sampling rate down to 1GSa/s, it will be like that. As the matter of fact, the jitter remains in both main and zoom wave, but it's too small to see it in main windows."

...and included an image from an Agilent X-3000 exhibiting the same behavior:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69875)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 06, 2013, 06:11:07 pm
Rigol has changed the structure of unit settings stored in FRAM memory in the newest FW version, so owners of non-A model DS2000's should follow these steps when upgrading to try to avoid potential 'hanging' issues:

1) Before upgrading - set Utility->System->Power On to 'Default'.
2) Upgrade via boot method.
3) During the first boot up after upgrade, hold in left-menu F6 (sixth gray button) during the boot to reset FRAM settings.

Please post any changes (improvements, bug-fixes, new bugs, etc) noticed here - and I will update the bug list as necessary.

Edit: New firmware available at Rapidshare link in Firmware post at the beginning of this thread. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 07, 2013, 12:19:16 am
If using new FW 02.01.00.03, I strongly advise against loading WFM files created under a different FW version.

Doing so (at least on my DSO) immediately changes the language to Chinese - and then hangs before finishing loading of the file. A reboot will get you out of the hang, but many things will be screwed-up, and if you then, for example, go to Measure->Display All->On - you will hang the DSO permanently - unable to exit the hang even with a reboot - requiring a downgrade to older FW to restore it to working function.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 07, 2013, 01:40:19 am
I have to say: so far I'm rather disappointed with Rigol's latest firmware release (after waiting 6 months).

I haven't seen any new features added (most disappointedly: no change to the lame External Trigger) -  although I have found at least one minor bug fix so far (see next post) - and perhaps more to come with further tests.

So far, the only UI thing I've noticed that's different is the way they display the Options Installed table - slightly smaller and more condensed (room for more entries):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69955)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 07, 2013, 02:30:59 am
It seems Rigol has definitely done some work on the intensity-grading in the Zoom window of Delayed Sweep in the latest FW release. It was often too light - much lighter than when just stopping the DSO and zooming in by shortening the time base - which forced you to crank up the intensity all the way some times.

Here is a screen image I made documenting part of the problem for them (via Drieg) back in June using FW 01.01.00.02 - with the intensity setting around 30%:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69961)


Here are the exact same signals and settings (including 30% intensity setting) using the latest FW 02.01.00.03:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69963)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: rbola35618 on December 07, 2013, 03:20:33 am
Marmad,

The intensity grading looks much better in the new DS1104 scope. I am presently evaluating both DS2202 and the DS1104Z side by side along with my agilent DSX3000. The best intensity grading is won by the Agilent with the DS1104 a close second and the DS2000 last. That was one of my complains in evaluating the DS4000 series in that the display was in certain conditions too dim.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on December 07, 2013, 05:36:09 am
It seems Rigol has definitely done some work on the intensity-grading in the Zoom window of Delayed Sweep in the latest FW release.
Ooo, did they fix high res in roll mode? It had the same problem.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 07, 2013, 05:39:47 am
The intensity grading looks much better in the new DS1104 scope... The best intensity grading is won by the Agilent with the DS1104 a close second and the DS2000 last.

This would be a purely subjective opinion - it sounds like you prefer intensity-grading with a narrower band. Both the Agilent and the DS1000Z have <=64 levels, while the DS2000/4000 have up to 256 levels.

I like the intensity-grading on the DS2000 fine - more than what I've seen in videos for the Agilent X-Series and DS1000Z. The main problem, IMO, was the implementation of it when in Delayed Sweep mode - and it appears that Rigol might have finally corrected that issue.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 07, 2013, 03:30:48 pm
Ooo, did they fix high res in roll mode? It had the same problem.

I just checked - and since I never noticed that before, I'm not sure. It seems OK to me: switching in and out of High Res appears to be the same intensity - but you'd be able to tell better than me (using whatever conditions you used before).

But honestly, I can't imagine often needing that combination of features. When in Roll mode and IF using High Res, your -3 dB bandwidths are approximately the following:

200ms = 343Hz
500ms = 171Hz
1s    = 68.6Hz
2s    = 34.3Hz
5s    = 17.1Hz
10s   = 6.8Hz
20s   = 3.4Hz
50s   = 1.7Hz
100s  = 0.68Hz
200s  = 0.34Hz
500s  = 0.17Hz
1000s = 0.06Hz
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on December 07, 2013, 11:06:08 pm
I'm not sure if this helps sort anything out, but here are 2 images from the DS1000Z and some from the DS2000 showing an attempt at comparing intensity grading.  These were from a BK Precision function generator producing some modulated signals.

EF

(Not sure why the DS2 images open from a browser and the DS1Z don't, but the DS1Z images do seem to open in Microsoft Office Picture Manager.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 07, 2013, 11:36:18 pm
I'm not sure if this helps sort anything out, but here are 2 images from the DS1000Z and 2 from the DS2000 showing an attempt at comparing intensity grading.

I don't know how the DS1000Z functions, but the DS2000 get's a wider range of grades as you turn the intensity down - although many of those grades are dark grades. The brighter the overall intensity is - the less grades the DS2000 uses to reproduce the waveforms. I think 30-40% is probably the best trade-off.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on December 08, 2013, 12:36:10 am
I posted 4 more above at 0, 20, 40, and 60% intensity for comparison
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on December 08, 2013, 05:06:18 am
Here are some intensity graded images DS1104Z and a DS2072, along with an image from a Tektronix analog scope
- not sure why the DSOs don't look a little better?
---
I added 1 more with the DS1104Z cranked up on the intensity to 71%; maybe better?
---
also added 1 more showing DS2000 being fed by function generator with signal slightly less modulated; there is a point at which as more modulation is added the waveform becomes visibly more "striated" (and less striated as modulate is decreased)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on December 08, 2013, 05:08:41 am
But honestly, I can't imagine often needing that combination of features.

I've been using roll+high res as an approximation of a DMM trend plot, so I'm not after much in the way of bandwidth, hehe.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Radardude on December 08, 2013, 11:59:57 am
Here are some intensity graded images DS1104Z and a DS2072, along with an image from a Tektronix analog scope
- not sure why the DSOs don't look a little better?
---
I added 1 more with the DS1104Z cranked up on the intensity to 71%; maybe better?
---
also added 1 more showing DS2000 being fed by function generator with signal slightly less modulated; there is a point at which as more modulation is added the waveform becomes visibly more "striated" (and less striated as modulate is decreased)

If you look at the DS1000 first rise of the modulated signal compare to the DS2000 you will notice that the higher sample rate of DS2000 is capture more information from the signal. Therefore the intensity grading of both waveforms can't be compare equally.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 08, 2013, 02:28:12 pm
If you look at the DS1000 first rise of the modulated signal compare to the DS2000 you will notice that the higher sample rate of DS2000 is capture more information from the signal. Therefore the intensity grading of both waveforms can't be compare equally.

That's the problem with trying to compare intensity-grading between DSOs. Ideally, you'd compare images when they are capturing at similar wfrm/s rates.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 08, 2013, 08:30:38 pm
Rigol seems to advertise lower over shoot for DS2000A. There is however no measurement. Maybe it looks lower. Look at pictures. For DS2000 it is about 8 % measured by my scope.

Maybe, I don't know. The over shoot with Rigot is also quite big. It should be under 3 %. Maybe the adaption with 50 Ohm feed through terminator is not very good.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on December 08, 2013, 11:29:15 pm
Here are some intensity graded images DS1104Z and a DS2072, along with an image from a Tektronix analog scope
- not sure why the DSOs don't look a little better?

Because the analog scope intensity is infinitely variable, while the DSOs are quantized.  And they burn up some of those levels in the Brightness bias.

In spite of that limitation, I'd say they look pretty good.  Certainly better than my old DS1102CD.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on December 10, 2013, 09:52:15 pm
Hi all!

I just noticed that selecting "Inverted" in the storage menu doesn't have any effect on saved PNGs. Or BMPs or JPEGs as well. I expect the saved pictures to have inverted colours (or even better, leave the colours and just change black to white and vice-versa)...

(I use SW 00.01.01.00.02 on HW 1.0.1.0.0 in a DS2072)

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 10, 2013, 10:15:21 pm
It works on my Agilent scope... Here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/my-new-toy-%29-agilent-dsox2002a-sex-on-a-stick!/msg229312/#msg229312) But i find it little useful. You can always process the image in your PC.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 10, 2013, 11:11:09 pm
I just noticed that selecting "Inverted" in the storage menu doesn't have any effect on saved PNGs. Or BMPs or JPEGs as well. I expect the saved pictures to have inverted colours (or even better, leave the colours and just change black to white and vice-versa)...
Well, I don't know for sure if it works with FW.01.01.00.02 (never tried it) - but it certainly works for FW 02.01.00.03. Did you see the image I posted on the previous page of this thread?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=69955)

One thing to remember: there are two different menus where you can chose image parameters like screen/wave region, color/gray scale, inverted, header/footer, etc:
1) Storage Menu - in which case the set parameters only affect the files you Save via the Storage Menu's Save menu item.
2) Utility / Print Setup Menu - in which case the set parameters only affect the files you Save via the Print button (either to USB storage device or PictBridge printer).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2013, 11:13:00 am
Could someone that has the necessary gear please check if the following two bugs are still present in FW v.02.01.00.03?

1) Bus decoding does not decode the full ASCII set. Missing characters:[ . , : ; - _ ! " § $ % & / ( ) = ? ] - everything between square brackets (except spaces).

2) When the RS-232 baud rate is set to AUTO 57600, it is incorrect. When set to USER 57600, it operates correctly.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on December 11, 2013, 12:33:22 pm
Thanks marmad for your reply. As a matter of fact, the invert works on 01.01.00.02 when set in Utility/Print Setup (I use the QuickPrint button only). I just didn't destinguish between the two settings for Quick Print and regular Save. However, the settings in regular Save do have an effect on QuickPrint. The file type (PNG, BMP etc.) you set there is also used for QuickPrint.

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2013, 12:36:51 pm
However, the settings in regular Save do have an effect on QuickPrint. The file type (PNG, BMP etc.) you set there is also used for QuickPrint.

That's true - and important to note. It's odd that Rigol didn't just allow a separate file type to be set in Print Setup as well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 11, 2013, 12:41:01 pm
2) When the RS-232 baud rate is set to AUTO 57600, it is incorrect. When set to USER 57600, it operates correctly.[/b]

OK Now,
first Pic shows Error , missing bytes 4 out of 13
second shows correct today on new firmware

Which is what I expected after receiving this E-mail from Rigol back in July /2013
---------------------------------
Dear xxxx 
  OK,I agree with you ,will check with R&D .
  Maybe 57600 is right ,then just need change internal programme .
  Best regards,
  Vivien Liu
Marketing Department
RIGOL Technologies,INC.
http://www.rigol.com (http://www.rigol.com)

---------------------------------
Explanation  20% duty cycle of 11.52 KHz x4
           = 10 bits at 57.6KHz
           = 1000010000
           = 1     00001000   0
           = strt, 00001000, stop
           = strt,   xEF   , stop   (LSB endian)

 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2013, 12:43:15 pm
OK Now,
first Pic shows Error , missing bytes 4 out of 13
second shows correct today on new firmware

Great - thanks for that, Teneyes! Any chance you can also check the ASCII decode issue?

Edit: Removed that bug from the list. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 11, 2013, 05:30:53 pm
Is it my imagination or did the latest firmware (00.02.01.00.03) change the behavior of the vertical gain and position controls so that, while adjusting them, new sample updates to the display are temporarily stopped?  It seems to make changes to the trace visually smoother and less jerky during the adjustments.  This can be demonstrated by using Auto trigger and changing the edge trigger level outside the range of the waveform (no trigger/free running).

Maybe it has always been this way and I am not remembering correctly?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2013, 05:44:33 pm
Is it my imagination or did the latest firmware (00.02.01.00.03) change the behavior of the vertical gain and position controls so that, while adjusting them, new sample updates to the display are temporarily stopped?  It seems to make changes to the trace visually smoother and less jerky during the adjustments.  This can be demonstrated by using Auto trigger and changing the edge trigger level outside the range of the waveform (no trigger/free running).

Maybe it has always been this way and I am not remembering correctly?
Well, it seems about the same to me - but I couldn't be sure without comparing. The behavior of the firmware of holding the last captured waveform while adjusting size or position has has been around now for the last 3 FW releases.

But believe it or not, for the first two FW versions, (00.01.00.02 & 00.01.00.05), the DSO cleared the display completely and attempted to restart the sweep while adjusting the waveform (first 'bug' mentioned on this list (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)); meaning that if you were on a slow time base, the waveform just vanished while trying to adjust the size or position.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 11, 2013, 06:17:26 pm
Well, it seems about the same to me - but I couldn't be sure without comparing. The behavior of the firmware of holding the last captured waveform while adjusting size or position has has been around now for the last 3 FW releases.

I think you're right.  Playing with it a bit more, fine position adjustment still has the feel of "two steps forward and one step back".
Guess it was just wishful thinking...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 11, 2013, 06:24:43 pm
RS-232 Decode on 00.02.01.00.03

Looks like the § comes out as a * (not sure what character set that belongs to anyway) but the rest is there:


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2013, 06:48:12 pm
RS-232 Decode on 00.02.01.00.03

Looks like the § comes out as a * (not sure what character set that belongs to anyway) but the rest is there:

Great - thanks for that, PA0PBZ! It's nice to know that Rigol continues to listen to our feedback and iron-out bugs.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2013, 06:56:27 pm
The ASCII decode bug (now fixed) was the last one on the list I created on the first page of this thread - excluding the AntiAliasing problem. But honestly, I'm not sure what Rigol can do about that unless they ignore Agilent's (HP) patent (or find a way around it).

OTOH, the safest way to avoid aliasing is with faster sample rates - and the DS2000 can sample @ 2GSa/s down to 2ms/div - while the Agilent DSOX2000 can only sample @ 2GSa/s down to 2us/div - so it needs the anti-aliasing feature more.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2013, 08:11:39 pm
One additional change that Rigol really should make to their firmware - and it's also worth noting for users so they will be inclined to do it manually:

If the 56M option is installed, the AUTO memory depth setting should automatically switch to using the 56M sample depth when the time base is <= 1ms. That's because the waveform update rate is not substantially different between the two memory depths (56M/14M), but the sample rate is 2 - 4x faster with 56M at those time base settings - which significantly helps to reduce aliasing.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=70483)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 12, 2013, 04:16:08 am
First image: The "Auto" indicates that it isn't triggered.  Set it to normal triggering if you only want triggered waveforms.  The stuff on the left doesn't look like it falls below -32mV, so it's not going to trigger there.  The stuff on the right just barely does, so I would think you'd get triggering on that if you set it to normal. 

Definitely should be using NORMAL triggering - as well some bandwidth limiting if you've got your DSO tweaked to 300MHz. In fact, it's possible that the 300MHz installed option could be causing problems on non-A models (if you installed it) - since it was never actually intended by Rigol to be activated accept on A models.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 12, 2013, 09:00:27 am
Carrington showed displays of  Auto Triggering, and the position of the waveform at the trigger point
That reminded me  to check the AC coupled Trigger bug I reported back in july here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg256168/#msg256168

That bug is still there. (Noone confirmed back in July)

Trigger position should be at the Center
   1   DC coupling, NO offset
   2.  On  100ns/div the offset of 50nsec  is  1/2 div
   3.  On   50ns/div the offset of 50nsec  is  1  div
   4   On   20ns/div the offset of 50nsec  is  2 1/2 div
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 12, 2013, 02:23:13 pm
@Teneyes: Sorry, somehow I missed/forgot the AC-coupling trigger bug, and didn't add it to the list (so it wasn't fixed by Rigol). I think it was because of the busy summer renovations of my loft - but I will add it soon and pass it along to Drieg - currently on WiFi on fast train to Paris for the weekend ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 12, 2013, 02:51:05 pm
I'm away from my DS2000 until Monday, but perhaps someone else can test using the Trigger Out with the new v.2 firmware?

I'm not sure Rigol could have done anything about it in FW, since it might have been hardware related (on HW v.1 models), but I'm pretty sure our 'concerns' about it were reported to them via Drieg.

To sum up the previous findings:
Delay of Trigger Out when using CH1/CH2 as trigger: ~210ns +/- 4ns
Delay of Trigger Out when using External Trigger as trigger: ~163ns +/- 4ns

Anyone want to check if it's still the same?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 12, 2013, 03:05:39 pm
I'm away from my DS2000 until Monday, but perhaps someone else can test using the Trigger Out with the new v.2 firmware?

I'm not sure Rigol could have done anything about it in FW, since it might have been hardware related (on HW v.1 models), but I'm pretty sure our 'concerns' about it were reported to them via Drieg.

To sum up the previous findings:
Delay of Trigger Out when using CH1/CH2 as trigger: ~210ns +/- 4ns
Delay of Trigger Out when using External Trigger as trigger: ~163ns +/- 4ns

Anyone want to check if it's still the same?
After of the above.
I can confirm that the the trigger out delay is ~230ns, for the two last firmwares on my DS2072 HW v.1.

CH1= "The ghost pulse."
CH2= To Trigger Out.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=70536;image)

How nice, X-Y cursors, in the firmware 02_01_00_03!

Have a great weekend.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 12, 2013, 03:12:41 pm
I can confirm that the the trigger out delay is ~230ns, for the two last firmwares on my DS2072 HW v.1.

Thanks, but that's not a precise measurement. There is a fixed delay plus/minus some jitter - and a different delay with External trigger. I'd like to get specifics; as in this image:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/using-2-scopes-for-4-channel-measurement/?action=dlattach;attach=48301)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 12, 2013, 03:21:28 pm
Ok, now I understand.
@marmad:
What is the input to the channel two in the picture above?
And what is the triggers source CH2 or CH1?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 12, 2013, 03:42:15 pm
Mystery solved ...
Impressive because it was so powerful... reached up to 150mVpp
SDS8102V one meter away:
Yes the DSO's are sensitive, and be aware of RFI
See the FM Station RFI I picked up from my Finger in first picture last year (70MHz)
see again with mod. today in 2nd Pic (counter almost locks on)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 12, 2013, 03:45:07 pm
Trigger on External and check Trigger out delay and Jitter
On some Frequency ,jitter is less
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 12, 2013, 03:47:47 pm
Mystery solved ...
Impressive because it was so powerful... reached up to 150mVpp
SDS8102V one meter away:
Yes the DSO's are sensitive, and be aware of RFI
See the FM Station RFI in picked up from my Finger in first picture last year (70MHz)
see again with mod. today in 2nd Pic (counter almost locks on)

Yeah, check this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg290624/#msg290624 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg290624/#msg290624)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 12, 2013, 04:10:39 pm
@Carrington
Does EMV35 come in light Green by the DecaLiter?  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 12, 2013, 04:21:46 pm
@Carrington
Does EMV35 come in light Green by the DecaLiter?  :D
I don't know, the paint of the 200ml EMV35 pot was brown (cooper). There is also gray color (Nikel).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 12, 2013, 06:41:53 pm
Here is picture about Trig out delay.
New FW 2.0...
-Ch1: pulse, Delay-Cal = 22 ns
-Ch2: trig out, Delay-Cal = -200 ns (min value)
Total delay = 200 + 22 = 222 ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 12, 2013, 06:46:10 pm
after reading so many postings about the DS2xxx DSOs, I have some questions ... hm

like, what's the meaning of the anti-aliasing problem
or, is the FFT working correctly or isn't it? (there've been some example screenshots where the curve didn't look like it should)

edit: where can I get firmware-updates, if not someone from this forum uploads them?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 12, 2013, 06:56:05 pm
Is a changelog available for the latest DS2000 firmware (00.02.01.00.03)?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 13, 2013, 11:22:08 am
Is a changelog available for the latest DS2000 firmware (00.02.01.00.03)?

I haven't gotten my hands on one yet (and Rigol doesn't usually publicly release them), but I'm stilll hoping to find out more info about changes.


And thanks to Teneyes and EV for the Trigger Out tests.

Would someone with HW v.2 / model A like to try it as well - to see if Rigol tightened the specs up in the newer hardware?

You just need to send a > 100k sine/square wave into CH1 (edge trigger) and Trigger Out to CH2 - then use a long persistence (e.g. 2s) to get an idea of jitter. The distance between the trigger point and the (averaged) rising edge of the Trigger Out signal is the delay (plus or minus the farthest distance of other edges).

Then just switch the sine wave input (and edge trigger) to External Trigger and check again.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 13, 2013, 01:43:58 pm
Here are pictures from pulse generator traces:
- CH1 pulse from generator
- CH2 pretrigger pulse from generator

In picture 2 the cable (RG174) to CH2 is 65 cm longer than in picture 1. Delay from the longer cable is about 2.8 ns. This gives 2.8 / 0.65 = 4.3 ns delay per one meter when RG174 cable is used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 13, 2013, 03:04:42 pm

Would someone with HW v.2 / model A like to try it as well - to see if Rigol tightened the specs up in the newer hardware?

You just need to send a > 100k sine/square wave into CH1 (edge trigger) and Trigger Out to CH2 - then use a long persistence (e.g. 2s) to get an idea of jitter. The distance between the trigger point and the (averaged) rising edge of the Trigger Out signal is the delay (plus or minus the farthest distance of other edges).

Then just switch the sine wave input (and edge trigger) to External Trigger and check again.

This is from HW2 (non A), Firmware 00.02.01.00.03:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 13, 2013, 03:32:35 pm
With respect to the 300MHz BW option and firmware 00.02.01.00.03.

- Oscilloscope: DS2072, HW v.1.0.1.0.0.
- Signal source: Altera Cyclone II FPGA.

1K Probe:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=70665;image)

Agilent 1073D (500MHz) Probe:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=70667;image)

Rigol RP3300 (350MHz) Probe:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=70669;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 13, 2013, 04:40:26 pm
This is from HW2 (non A), Firmware 00.02.01.00.03:

Thanks, JDubU. It looks more or less identical with HW v.1. I'm guessing, given their general design, they couldn't make it any better without some major changes. 160 - 230ns is certainly usable; if they would allow External Trigger to be a source to the other trigger types (for cross-triggering purposes), the slightly longer-than-normal delay would matter even less.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 13, 2013, 05:18:01 pm
Thanks, JDubU. It looks more or less identical with HW v.1. I'm guessing, given their general design, they couldn't make it any better without some major changes. 160 - 230ns is certainly usable; if they would allow External Trigger to be a source to the other trigger types (for cross-triggering purposes), the slightly longer-than-normal delay would matter even less.

In conjunction with a LA that allows post/pre trigger this delay isn't a problem.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 14, 2013, 08:08:30 am
I installed BW 300M option to my DS2202. Here are rise time tests with Tek type 284 pulse generator.

In pic 1 I have used BNC cable with 50 ohm feed through terminator. Rise time has changed from 1.4 ns to 1.2 ns and over shoot from 8 % to 10 %. It is not a big change.

In pic 2 I have used 10X probe with 50 ohm feed through terminator between probe tip and generator output connector. Rise time is about 1 ns and over shoot 17 %.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 14, 2013, 03:03:40 pm
I installed BW 300M option to my DS2202. Here are rise time tests with Tek type 284 pulse generator.

In pic 1 I have used BNC cable with 50 ohm feed through terminator. Rise time has changed from 1.4 ns to 1.2 ns and over shoot from 8 % to 10 %. It is not a big change.

In pic 2 I have used 10X probe with 50 ohm feed through terminator between probe tip and generator output connector. Rise time is about 1 ns and over shoot 17 %.
What HW version does your DS2202 have?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 14, 2013, 03:32:57 pm
It is HW1, picture is before updates.

What HW version does your DS2202 have?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dschnell on December 14, 2013, 09:06:14 pm
Hi,

watch out, first post  ::)

After reading (almost) completely the 2 main threads about 2072 I finally bought a 2072 used. I upgraded all options with the already installed latest 1.X fw, then upgraded to newest 2.X firmware via bootloader method but _without_ uninstalling upgraded options (but with FRAM reset), then installed all 2.X available options and now have "non-standard ;)" 200M + 300M options installed.
Otherwise just minor hassles: first reboot after fw upgrade: no go, installed again newest fw, again FRAM reset: it finally booted up, installation of newest options via riglol codes then went without any glitch.

Do I have to expect unusual behavior because of the activated 200M+300M options ? I played around and haven't seen any strangeness because of that. Then again: this is my first scope and I am just an embedded SW engineer interested in hw, so probably I could not recognize :-//.

Anything special I should examine a used scope for ?

Next question: I am on a MAC. Is there any tool I could use on that platform to remote control the scope or do I have to run some Windows VM?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on December 15, 2013, 07:19:35 am
When you said 200M+300M do you mean you are able to set the bandwidth limit for this? I thought the latest code dshh will give you 300Mhz but the bandwidth limit selectable were only 20Mhz and 100Mhz. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 15, 2013, 11:56:28 am

Anything special I should examine a used scope for ?
Hi Dschnell, welcome to this group
check out new posting:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-failures-and-rma-reports/msg347926/#msg347926
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 15, 2013, 12:07:38 pm
When you said 200M+300M do you mean you are able to set the bandwidth limit for this?

No, if you go from DS2072 to DS2202 the options screen shows the 200 Mhz bandwidth. If you then update to the newest fw and apply the DS2302 code you end up with both 200 Mhz and 300 Mhz in the options screen. I don't think it is a problem though.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on December 15, 2013, 05:16:12 pm
I have had the same issue with both the 200MHz and 300MHz option available in the options menu. Didn't like it, so I uninstalled the options altogether and entered the 300MHz (+CAN options) to be sure.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dschnell on December 15, 2013, 09:38:48 pm
When you said 200M+300M do you mean you are able to set the bandwidth limit for this?

No, if you go from DS2072 to DS2202 the options screen shows the 200 Mhz bandwidth. If you then update to the newest fw and apply the DS2302 code you end up with both 200 Mhz and 300 Mhz in the options screen. I don't think it is a problem though.

That is exactly what I meant. I have both options installed at the same time: the 200MHz and the 300MHz option. The channel bandwidth limit shows 20M and 100M as for all others.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neilhao on December 16, 2013, 07:17:16 pm
Fix the print screen problem:
The Ultra Sigma will not take a screenshot with the DS2302 if we upgraded. The reason is that the Ultra Sigma could not recognize the DS2302 during the hand shaking process.

I found out a way to fix this, there is an Init file(file name "Init") under \RIGOL Technologies, Inc\Ultra Sigma, Open it and locate to
[PrintScreenSCPI]
......
DS4012D = ":DISPlay:DATA?"
DS2072 = ":DISPlay:DATA?"
DS2102 = ":DISPlay:DATA?"
DS2202 = ":DISPlay:DATA?"

Add following line below the DS2202
DS2302 = ":DISPlay:DATA?"

Save the file

That is all.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 16, 2013, 09:48:57 pm
Ok - after these latest tests, I'm happier with the newest firmware from Rigol.  ;D

Rigol has improved the waveform update rates at many of the lower time base settings, with the following results:

The DSO is now able to achieve close to 50k wfrm/s (Dots mode) @ 3 different time base settings: 1ns, 5ns, & 20ns - and @ 2 of those (1ns & 5ns) using vectors.
At the other 3 lowest time base settings (2ns, 10ns, & 50ns), the DSO is faster with both channels ON (Dots mode).
With any setting (1 or 2 channels, dots or vectors) @ <= 10ns/div, the wfrm/s rate is >= ~24k.

The one detrimental (and rather oddball) change is single channel, vectors @ 20ns/div (and yes, I checked it several times): it has dropped considerably from it's previous rate (making 5ns the fastest rate for a single channel using vectors). But considering the improvements in the other rates, I can accept it.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=71764)

The old wfrm/s charts in the first post will have to be updated, so I've removed the old ones for now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on December 16, 2013, 11:00:46 pm
I love it! That are good news and impressive improvements! Thank you for your work!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 17, 2013, 05:14:06 pm
and that's not a new bug?
dropping from 47k to 17k while nearly all other values got better?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 17, 2013, 05:28:34 pm
This is strange:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg260539/#msg260539 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg260539/#msg260539)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg263480/#msg263480 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg263480/#msg263480)

Well, this is my third wish:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg347044/#msg347044 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg347044/#msg347044)

 8)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 05:30:21 pm
and that's not a new bug?
dropping from 47k to 17k while nearly all other values got better?

A bug? You can't really classify a slower or faster waveform update rate as a bug - since almost ANYTHING (input levels, frequency, measurements on/off, etc) can affect the rate. Rigol has clearly done some tweaking in this FW version to provide better-balanced rates across the smaller time base settings than the DSO used to have. If the cost of getting > 10k wfrm/s @ 20ns/div for two channels means that setting needs to drop, it's fine by me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on December 17, 2013, 05:34:50 pm
and that's not a new bug?
dropping from 47k to 17k while nearly all other values got better?

It is quite likely that is a new bug. But they release a new Firmware again since a long time. After many new devices offers maybe they have more time to release new fixes....  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 06:04:27 pm
and that's not a new bug?
dropping from 47k to 17k while nearly all other values got better?

It is quite likely that is a new bug. But they release a new Firmware again since a long time. After many new devices offers maybe they have more time to release new fixes....  ;)

Read my message above. It's not realistic to classify slower or faster wfrm/s rates as bugs. Is it a bug when you turn on High Res and the rate drops? They've added a new working time base to the new firmware (1ns/div) and the rates have shifted. Nope - not a bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: christos on December 17, 2013, 06:09:42 pm
sorry, but im new here and i dont know how to post a topic..can anyone help me?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 06:14:34 pm
New chart: full comparison of v.1 and v.2 waveform update rates in AUTO mode / vectors:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72071)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on December 17, 2013, 06:14:59 pm
and that's not a new bug?
dropping from 47k to 17k while nearly all other values got better?

It is quite likely that is a new bug. But they release a new Firmware again since a long time. After many new devices offers maybe they have more time to release new fixes....  ;)


Read my message above. It's not realistic to classify slower or faster wfrm/s rates as bugs. Is it a bug when you turn on High Res and the rate drops? Nope - not a bug.

Yes, you are right. It is not a "bug". But there is a deterioration of the previous value. So I think there is something wrong for only this one rate. For me, no big deal. ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 06:15:39 pm
sorry, but im new here and i dont know how to post a topic..can anyone help me?

Click the 'Help' button at the top of the page - it will show you how to do anything in the forum.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 17, 2013, 06:18:07 pm
ok, it just seemed a bit weird to me that only 1 value has such a difference :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 06:21:21 pm
ok, it just seemed a bit weird to me that only 1 value has such a difference :)

Yes, but 5ns single/vector had an even bigger difference (> 31k wfrm/s) - in the opposite direction.  :)

Ideally, the faster the time base, the more waveforms per second (because blind time is increasing). So Rigol's speeds are much more balanced (i.e. growing larger at smaller time bases) than before.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 17, 2013, 06:23:38 pm
New chart: full comparison of v.1 and v.2 waveform update rates in AUTO mode / vectors:

Do these waveform update rates change if you change the frequency of the input signal (change the trigger rate)?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 06:32:37 pm
Do these waveform update rates change if you change the frequency of the input signal (change the trigger rate)?

I always use a 1MHz sine - but I've noticed there is some variation (maybe +/- 5%?) based on the trigger frequency - just as there is based on the input levels (and virtually anything else). I've never done extensive testing, but feel free to work it out if you'd like  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on December 17, 2013, 06:34:39 pm
and that's not a new bug?
dropping from 47k to 17k while nearly all other values got better?
I find it more likely that the old figure was caused by a bug (billed as a feature), since it was such a discontinuity.  But like marmad says, it's hard for us to know what's an intended consequence of balancing features and what's an unintended drop in wfrm/s.  Hopefully someone at Rigol knows :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 06:59:47 pm
Found a bug in the new firmware - incorrect setting of the sample rate in DOTS mode at certain time bases it appears to be a bug between sample and display memory.

It seems to affect AUTO/14M/56M memory settings while in DOTS mode @ time bases >= 5us/div.

If someone still has FW v.01.01.00.02 installed, could they please double-check to make sure this bug is NOT present in that FW?

To test:

Single channel on; DOTS mode; test signal input (e.g. 1MHz sine); AUTO memory setting.

Go from 100us/div to 200us/div - and watch the image change. The sample rate appears to be wrong for the displayed image (it's supposed to be 2GSa/s):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72082)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 07:07:46 pm
Following up on the bug discovered: problems in DOTS mode @ >= 5us/div.

This waveform chart shows how the update rates for DOTS mode are always better than VECTORS until 5us/div, at which point they get drastically worse. Something is definitely wrong here:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72086)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 17, 2013, 07:28:25 pm
Following up on the bug discovered: problems in DOTS mode @ >= 5us/div.

This waveform chart shows how the update rates for DOTS mode are always better than VECTORS until 5us/div, at which point they get drastically worse. Something is definitely wrong here:

HW2, latest firmware.

I can confirm your waveform update findings in Dots vs. Vector mode at timebases >= 5us/div.

In regards to your previous post:  Dots mode 100us --> 200us.  The 200us setting does produce a display with unique dot artifacts at that one setting but, if I stop the sampling and zoom in, the sampling rate does match what is displayed at the top of the screen (by counting the dots per horizontal division).

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 07:38:42 pm
In regards to your previous post:  Dots mode 100us --> 200us.  The 200us setting does produce a display with unique dot artifacts at that one setting but, if I stop the sampling and zoom in, the sampling rate does match what is displayed at the top of the screen (by counting the dots per horizontal division).

Thanks, JDubU! Yes, it appears as if it's a bug that's between sample memory and display memory - since the sample memory is correct when stopped. But there is something wrong in the routine which is building the intensity map in the display memory - thus screwing up the waveform update numbers as well. But it's causing errors at other time base settings as well - you can tell by switching to 1.4M sample depth and seeing what appears to be a higher sample rate (which should, in fact, be a lower sample rate).

I sent an email onto Drieg to report the bug to Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: eV1Te on December 17, 2013, 07:41:46 pm
Found a bug in the new firmware - incorrect setting of the sample rate in Dots mode at certain time bases (and maybe something else too).

Perhaps someone can confirm on their DSO? Also, if someone still has FW v.01.01.00.02 installed, could they please double-check to see if this bug is present in that FW or not?

To test:

Single channel on; Dot mode; test signal input (e.g. 1MHz sine) - the bug affects both AUTO/14M/56M memory settings (but not the others, I think).

Go from 100us/div to 200us/div - and watch the image change. The sample rate is clearly wrong; in the image it's supposed to be 2GSa/s:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72082)

I don't see what is wrong? if you stop the scope and "zoom in" horizontally until you see the points, what is the distance? 0.5 ns?

I haven't seen Rigol actually specifying how many points the scope can show at once on the same screen, I guess it decimates the data in order to to get the 256 intensity gradings it is rated for.

For example the scope has 256 intensity gradings if i remember correctly and how many pixels wide is the graph part of the display? 700 pixels maybe?

256*700 dots = 179200 points at once on the screen. What is screen fps? 30? 179200 * 30  = 5376000 points on screen per second

You have 5.6 Mpoints memory which according to the table gives 88 Wfrm/s = 88*5600000 =  492800000 points captured per second

5376000/492800000 = 0.011 = ca. 1 % of the captured points are displayed on the screen.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 07:48:36 pm
I don't see what is wrong?
Here is the EXACT same signal and settings - except with 2 channels ON - and a 1GSa/s rate (LOWER than the first image). Can you see what's wrong now?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72094)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on December 17, 2013, 07:53:16 pm
Same here with HW2 and old FW 00.01.01.00.02. (I could only test it with 16Mhz, but same at 200µs)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: eV1Te on December 17, 2013, 07:53:59 pm
I don't see what is wrong?
Here is the EXACT same signal and settings - except with 2 channels ON - and a 1GSa/s rate (LOWER than the first image). Can you see what's wrong now?


I agree that it should look as good as that with one channel also, I just wanted to point out that when you have "too" many points in memory and an unfortunate frequency of the input signal you can get an apparent aliasing on the screen even though you have intensity graded display. But when the difference is that big it must be something else I would think as you pointed out.

What happens when you have anti-aliasing turned on in the first case, does it get better?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 08:04:47 pm
I agree that it should look as good as that with one channel also, I just wanted to point out that when you have "too" many points in memory and an unfortunate frequency of the input signal you can get an apparent aliasing on the screen even though you have intensity graded display. But when the difference is that big it must be something else I would think as you pointed out.

Again, look at the chart I posted - the waveform update rate is TRIPLING when using VECTORS instead of DOTS? That shouldn't happen: it should get slower - there is clearly a big bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 08:13:56 pm
Here's another @ 500us/div with 1MHz sine wave input. Same settings in both images except for memory depth. Top image is supposed to be 2GSa/s with 14M - bottom image is 200MSa/s with 1.4M. The bottom image is the correct one:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72098)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2013, 08:21:50 pm
@JDubU: Did you install the 300MHz option? It would be nice to know if this is connected to that option - or inherent in the firmware in general.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 17, 2013, 08:44:12 pm
@JDubU: Did you install the 300MHz option? It would be nice to know if this is connected to that option - or inherent in the firmware in general.

I am seeing the Dot mode artifacts at 200us/div using the latest firmware with no options installed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 12:57:09 pm
Same here with HW2 and old FW 00.01.01.00.02. (I could only test it with 16Mhz, but same at 200µs)
I am seeing the Dot mode artifacts at 200us/div using the latest firmware with no options installed.
Thanks, Bugware and JDubU.


Revamped the BUG LIST on the opening page (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684) to reflect just the last two firmware releases (v.01.01.00.02 / v.02.01.00.03) - and added the older AC-coupled Trigger bug (thanks, Teneyes!) and the newly discovered DOTS mode bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on December 18, 2013, 05:59:18 pm
I have just upgrade my device to the new Firmware 00.02.01.00.03. I had two Bugs with the old Firmware 00.01.01.00.02 and they are not solved. But I noticed, that the Screensave is now much faster! :)

First Bug:
The intensity graded waveform gets bright horizontal lines in the waveform when statistics is turned on:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72260;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72262;image)


Second Bug
When the trigger is change from DC Coupling to AC or HF Reject Coupling then the trigger point slips to the "left" about approx 2µs:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72264;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72266;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72268;image)


An other Bug in Firmware 00.01.01.00.02 is now fixed. When in Time Base X-Y the Horizontal knob was pushed to delayed sweep "unavailable function" is displayed. But after change to Y-T Time Base the delayed sweep background is activated but not for the Waveforms. This Bug is now fixed.




Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 06:36:47 pm
First Bug:
The intensity graded waveform gets bright horizontal lines in the waveform when statistics is turned on:
I'm not sure I would classify this as a bug or not. When you turn on Statistics, the waveform display area is reduced from 700x400 to 700x360 by the display processor before overlaying measurement stats. Those small horizontal lines you see are artifacts from the reduction (exactly 5 lines per div.) from 50 vertical pixels per div. to 45. Perhaps Rigol could fix this, but I'm SURE it would mean slower update rates for a smoother algorithm (which, IMO, isn't worth it).

Quote
Second Bug
When the trigger is change from DC Coupling to AC or HF Reject Coupling then the trigger point slips to the "left" about approx 2µs:
As noted in my post right above yours, this bug is already in the list: #17. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on December 18, 2013, 06:52:48 pm
First Bug:
The intensity graded waveform gets bright horizontal lines in the waveform when statistics is turned on:
I'm not sure I would classify this as a bug or not. When you turn on Statistics, the waveform display area is reduced from 700x400 to 700x360 by the display processor before overlaying measurement stats. Those small horizontal lines you see are artifacts from the reduction (exactly 5 lines per div.) from 50 vertical pixels per div. to 45. Perhaps Rigol could fix this, but I'm SURE it would mean slower update rates for a smoother algorithm (which, IMO, isn't worth it).

Sure that is a scaling problem. But I think all data in the display memory must be scaled?! So maybe there is no change in the update rate, so my thought...


Second Bug
When the trigger is change from DC Coupling to AC or HF Reject Coupling then the trigger point slips to the "left" about approx 2µs:
As noted in my post right above yours, this bug is already in the list: #17. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

I see. Sorry I have misunderstood the bug #17 in the list. So then this is only a confirmation of that. ;)  BTW. the offset is not only with AC Coupling but also for LF and HF Reject Coupling...    8)   
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: WVL_KsZeN on December 18, 2013, 06:58:10 pm
Was wondering if anyone could confirm this bug aswell:

If i use the test signal as input (1.000kHz) and change my timebase using fine adjust, the measurement go all weird (while they dont have to)

- attach channel 2 (f.e.) to the test signal
- press auto
- you should now have a timebase of 200us
- active frequency measurement (2nd in left menu)
- it should read 1.000kHz
- change timebase to 500us -> it still reads 1.000kHz
- change timebase to 1ms -> it still reads 1.000kHz
- change timebase to 2ms -> it still reads 1.000kHz
- change timebase to 5ms -> it still reads 1.000kHz
- change timebase to 10ms -> it still reads 1.000kHz
- now, change the scale adjust from coarse to fine
- change timebase to 9.350ms -> frequency reads 891.3Hz!!!

now, this is way off (more than 10%) and doesnt have to be. on the screen, there's 14*9.35ms=130.9ms of data. In that time, there have been 130.9 oscillations. Maybe it's possible the scope is reading one oscillation more or less, but imo the max error should be /130.9 * 100% = 0.76% = (9.9924Hz to 1.0076kHz), not more than 10%! Using a slightly smarter algorithm, the error should be even smaller..

This is with the latest firmware. Can anyone confirm this?

if i set the timescale one higher (9.4ms), the scope reads 1.064Khz, one lower (9.3ms) and it reads 1.075Khz, which is about the error I'd expect.

Same thing happens on other timebases, f.e. on 5.450ms the reading is >8% off!

Update :

It also seems to depend on the numer op points being taken.

on the 5.45ms timescale, the auto mem depth is set at 7.63Mpts when using only one channel. The reading is 917.4Hz
When changing the mem depth manually, you get :

14kpts - 1.019khz
140kpts - 1.019khz
1.4mpts - 1.019khz
14mpts - 1.019khz
56mpts - 1.019khz

so only the auto setting for the mem depth is way off.. isnt that weird?

At a timescale of 7.05ms/division, I'm even getting a reading of 886.5Hz, which is more than 11% off.. this is at a mem depth of 9.87Mpts. Any other manual mem depth gives a reading of 1.013kHz..
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 07:02:34 pm
Sure that is a scaling problem. But I think all data in the display memory must be scaled?! So maybe there is no change in the update rate, so my thought...

There is the normal scaling done between sample memory and display memory. The scaling for statistics is clearly done after this (since it's doubling lines), as part of the overlay (adding measurements, screen icons, etc).

Quote
I see. Sorry I have misunderstood the bug #17 in the list. So then this is only a confirmation of that. ;)  BTW. the offset is not only with AC Coupling but also for LF and HF Reject Coupling...    8)

Yes, I knew, but the bug clearly affects filtered triggers - so fixing it for one will likely fix it for all - but I added *filtered* to the bug description to make it clearer.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 07:09:25 pm
Was wondering if anyone could confirm this bug aswell:

Like most DSOs, ALL measurements from the left menu are software measurements on display memory (NOT sample memory) - they can only be considered accurate if you can see the wanted measurement parameter clearly defined on the displayed waveform.

OTOH, the counter from the Measure menu is a hardware frequency counter - and will be accurate, regardless of the displayed portion of the waveform.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: WVL_KsZeN on December 18, 2013, 07:12:52 pm
ofcourse, but there's more than 100 oscillations on the display.. no need for >1% error.

And if it's only depending on the display, how does changing the mem depth make such a big difference? the displayed signal is exactly the same.

@ auto mem depth
(http://tweakers.net/ext/f/tYXFnYnR7lvFve5e9BD1ryuV/full.png)

@ 56mpts mem depth
(http://tweakers.net/ext/f/tDvCoqUolnXun0U4TbW8hB5G/full.png)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on December 18, 2013, 07:23:50 pm
Sure that is a scaling problem. But I think all data in the display memory must be scaled?! So maybe there is no change in the update rate, so my thought...

There is the normal scaling done between sample memory and display memory. The scaling for statistics is clearly done after this (since it's doubling lines), as part of the overlay (adding measurements, screen icons, etc).

Quote
I see. Sorry I have misunderstood the bug #17 in the list. So then this is only a confirmation of that. ;)  BTW. the offset is not only with AC Coupling but also for LF and HF Reject Coupling...    8)

Yes, I knew, but the bug clearly affects filtered triggers - so fixing it for one will likely fix it for all - but I added *filtered* to the bug description to make it clearer.

Thank you for your explanations. I have now understood the backgrounds. Again learned something! This helps newbies like me very much.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: WVL_KsZeN on December 18, 2013, 07:27:04 pm
yes.. other measurement also seem to be affected. I think it's weird that the mem depth is having an influence, how could that be? As you can see by my screenshots, they're almost 99.9999% identical, so the scope is not (only) measuring 'on the screen'.

This is weird? a post by Marmad seems to have disappeared?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 07:42:26 pm
ofcourse, but there's more than 100 oscillations on the display.. no need for >1% error.

And if it's only depending on the display, how does changing the mem depth make such a big difference? the displayed signal is exactly the same.

The memory depth changes the amount that the DSO decimates to the display memory - either 13.8MB decimated to 700 bytes - or 56MB decimated to 700 bytes - in your images. You can imagine there will be changes in the frequency decimated to because of rounding errors.

Personally, I would NEVER use frequency from the measure menu (because of accuracy) - just the counter.

But it seems we have this discussion about the flaky measurements on DSO every few months. The truth of the matter is this:

Unless you have an expensive DSO which measures in sample memory, DSOs suck at measurements. All oscilloscopes, traditionally, have been crude measurement devices (on old analog scopes we counted graticule lines): they are, first and foremost,  VISUALIZATION devices. Now, DSO manufacturers have figured out a cheap, simple, and fast way to tack on measurements by using display memory - but honestly, if measurement accuracy is important - use an instrument designed for accurate measurement - or - capture/save the sample memory and measure using external software.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 07:59:56 pm
Just found another brand new feature added to the latest firmware (which, honestly, should have been there from the start):

CURSORS in X-Y Mode:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72281)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 08:36:54 pm
Yesterday, I reported that I had (finally) found a situation in which the Anti-Aliasing ACTUALLY WORKED - but I deleted that post once I discovered the DOTS mode bug (which, as mentioned below, is tied to it).

But I re-investigated the issue just now... and it's funny. I guess switching on Anti-Aliasing is just causing the DOTS mode to display the waveform as it SHOULD - given the memory size and sample rate - but it simulates a "correct" anti-aliasing technique.  ;D

Look at the following series of images made in DOTS mode:
1) MemDepth: 1.4M (no DOTS bug)/ Anti-Aliasing: OFF = obvious aliasing.
2) MemDepth: 1.4M (no DOTS bug)/ Anti-Aliasing: ON = absolutely no change to the aliasing.
3) MemDepth: 56M (DOTS bug)/ Anti-Aliasing: OFF = obvious aliasing.
4) MemDepth: 56M (DOTS bug)/ Anti-Aliasing: ON = aliasing is fixed!
5) MemDepth: AUTO (DOTS bug)/ Anti-Aliasing: OFF = obvious aliasing.
6) MemDepth: AUTO (DOTS bug)/ Anti-Aliasing: ON = aliasing is fixed!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72291)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 18, 2013, 08:37:34 pm
yeah, not many have cursors in XY mode, I guess that's another reason for people to buy Rigol XD
I hope mine comes tomorrow or friday ...
it's on the way, oh yay


edit: marmad, might you explain the background on the anti-aliasing problem? it would help me understand the problem :o
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 08:43:36 pm
edit: marmad, might you explain the background on the anti-aliasing problem? it would help me understand the problem :o

Search back through this thread, my friend. There is PLENTY of discussion about it  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 18, 2013, 08:56:01 pm
Now I'm in!
I went to local distributor in Moscow in bought the DS2072A device.

My device details:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72293;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72295;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72297;image)

I'm ready to do some tests and anything else except opening the device. So no JTAG dump (and I even had no JTAG programmer). :-\

I did some weird "parallel decoding" with internal calibration signal (attachment 4).

I have adjusted compensation on both probes (they are RP3300A, 10:1 only, 300MHz) and performed an self-calibration with nothing on BNCs.

Some measurement of noise with open BNCs and different settings: "Full (70 MHz) BW, 1 Meg", "20 MHz BW, 1 Meg", "Full (70 MHz) BW, 50 ohm", "20 MHz BW, 50 ohm". Results are in attachments.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 08:58:52 pm
Now I'm in!
I went to local distributor in Moscow in bought the DS2072A device.
Welcome! There is newer FW than the version installed on your DSO. You can download it from here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 18, 2013, 09:01:46 pm
alright, I'll look again :)
though I don't remember reading anything that explains the anti-aliasing itself or how I would recognize this as a "problem" looking at the curves lol
1st thing I would think of is a trigger problem (if the curve isn't steady)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 09:06:13 pm
alright, I'll look again :)
though I don't remember reading anything that explains the anti-aliasing itself or how I would recognize this as a "problem" looking at the curves lol
Here is a link to a previous post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg261236/#msg261236), which has the original patent papers for Agilent's (orignally Hewlett Packard's) technique for using stochastic (random) sampling to eliminate aliasing. This followed a long argument discussion  ;) between zibadun and myself, in which he claimed that the technique I had been describing was a gimmick and possibly not even used by Agilent. If you follow the discussion backwards from there, you can see a full explanation of why Rigol's AntiAliasing doesn't work - and what they could do to fix it - assuming they got around Agilent's patent  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 09:15:05 pm
alright, I'll look again :)
though I don't remember reading anything that explains the anti-aliasing itself or how I would recognize this as a "problem" looking at the curves lol
Here is one more link (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg259965/#msg259965) - using images to clearly show the problems of aliases when a 100kHz sine wave is undersampled at 100-200kSa/s - and how the Agilent (but NOT the Rigol) deals with it perfectly.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 18, 2013, 09:28:06 pm
thanks! I'll check them out :)
(though I currently/still wouldn't see it if I would have this problem in front of me lol)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 18, 2013, 09:36:54 pm
Some additional photos of unboxing...

It was in two boxes: one inside of another.

BNC-2-crocodile clip on 2nd photo is not from this box, I just bought it separately with my DS2072A. ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 18, 2013, 09:39:18 pm
And some close-ups...

Going to sleep now, 1:50 (am) in Moscow... :=\ Later I'll update FW to the latest one.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on December 18, 2013, 09:43:49 pm
So the probes that comes with it are 300mhz?, I thought they was supposed to be 350?, and they are fixed to 10x? not switchable?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 18, 2013, 09:44:39 pm
I wonder why my DSOX2002A bought in 4/2013 was not packed in a plastic bag.  :o
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 18, 2013, 09:46:19 pm
So the probes that comes with it are 300mhz?, I thought they was supposed to be 350?, and they are fixed to 10x? not switchable?
Manual for the probes says "DC~300MHz". They are not switchable, 10:1 only. Compensation trimmer is on box with BNC. And there is plastic srewdriver in the bag.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on December 18, 2013, 10:14:01 pm
Hm, datasheet for the 2000A series states:

2 Passive Probes (350 MHz)
And the manual, page 1-5 says so also, at least the one I downloaded.. strange..
Mine will arrive late January so I'll see what's packing by then..
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 18, 2013, 10:24:25 pm
Hm, datasheet for the 2000A series states:

2 Passive Probes (350 MHz)
And the manual, page 1-5 says so also, at least the one I downloaded.. strange..
Mine will arrive late January so I'll see what's packing by then..
There have been previous reports in this thread that sometimes the DSO comes with the RP-3300A probes (http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/RP3300A_UserGuide_EN.pdf) - instead of the RP-3300 probes (http://www.batronix.com/pdf/Rigol/RP3300.pdf), which most of us got.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on December 18, 2013, 10:58:27 pm
hm, strange.. are those useless when upgrading to 300mhz then?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 19, 2013, 08:47:20 am
I have updated FW to latest (00.02.01.00.03) and recalibrated my DS2072A. Everything looks fine. Trial minutes are still intact.

Here are some changes in info:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72383;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72385;image)

Note some differences in "Installed options".
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: WVL_KsZeN on December 19, 2013, 10:07:27 am
I also got two RP3300A with my scope (DS2072 with hw1.0, but only 4 weeks old), while two RP3300 were advertised. Now I really wanted some 1x probes aswell, so I complained a bit (a lot) and finally got 2 extra RP3300 sent home for free. I didnt have to send my RP3300A back. Where I bought my scope, they're asking 45 euro's for a single RP3300 probe! Don't think they made any money from me, I got a 10% discount on my scope (765 euro) and two extra RP3300 (90 euro), so I only paid +- 675 euro for my scope.

Now, since I've got both, I can also compare them! :-)

The RP3300A have a much better feel than the RP3300. Build is better and they're also better isolated. With the RP3300 I get some glitches in the signals when I hold them in my hands the wrong way (finger close to the 1x/10x switch, probably picking up 50Hz in that case). The RP3300A are also a little bit smaller and thinner than the RP3300. The RP3300 have this yellow cap, to 'shield' the ground when probing on a PCB, but it falls off way too easily (for both probes, do others have this aswell?). I don't have a high frequency generator, so can't compare the bandwidth. Strangely, on some pages on the Rigol homepage, the A are rated at 350MHz, while on others they are rated at 300MHz.

If I'd have to chose between the RP3300 and RP3300A, then I'd go for the A! I'm not going to use the RP3300 in 10x mode, the RP3300A feel much better quality and is better isolated, so the RP3300 will be only used for low bandwidth 1x probing.

Btw, I doubt that either the RP3300 or the RP3300A are very good at 300MHz, but maybe someone already tested the bandwidth.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 19, 2013, 12:38:05 pm
Strangely, on some pages on the Rigol homepage, the A are rated at 350MHz, while on others they are rated at 300MHz.
It's the same with the RP2200 probes that comes with DS1000E.
At first they were specified at 200 MHz, but later they changed it to 150 MHz.

Here's a scan of the spec sheet in my Rigol RP2200 User's Guide: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheap-oscope-probe-quality/msg328232/#msg328232 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheap-oscope-probe-quality/msg328232/#msg328232)
Notice the 150MHz and 2.3ns stickers on it. You can see some of the 200 below the 150MHz sticker and when I hold it up against the light I can see some of the 1.7ns too.
Thanks AndersAnd.   I wonder if the materials they use now downgrade the capabilities?
How old are your RP2200 probes? I bought my Rigol 1052E with the RP2200 probes in June 2009.
Are you probes older than that?

Or maybe they just forgot to put the stickers in your user's guide. Or maybe they later found out the probe couldn't live up to the 200 MHz BW they originally specified and just put stickers in the manual instead of improving the product to live up to the specs originally planned. I don't think these probes were ever sold with any scopes above 150 MHz BW anyway. Rigol 1152E-EDU with 150 MHz BW is sold on the Chinese market, with these RP2200 150/200 MHz probes too I think.

I just attached a scan of the spec sheet in my Rigol RP2200 User's Guide.
Notice the 150MHz and 2.3ns stickers on it. You can see some of the 200 below the 150MHz sticker and when I hold it up against the light I can see some of the 1.7ns too.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheap-oscope-probe-quality/?action=dlattach;attach=66787;image)

And a scan of another RP2200 User's Guide without any stickers in it: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheap-oscope-probe-quality/msg328052/#msg328052 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheap-oscope-probe-quality/msg328052/#msg328052)
Thanks AndersAnd.   I wonder if the materials they use now downgrade the capabilities?

From my probe datasheet, enclosed.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/cheap-oscope-probe-quality/?action=dlattach;attach=66760;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 20, 2013, 03:54:14 pm
CAN decoder works!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 20, 2013, 04:08:18 pm
CAN decoder works!

Good to know  :) - thanks, EV!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 20, 2013, 04:21:13 pm
CAN decoder works!
Perfect!   :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on December 20, 2013, 06:01:58 pm
CAN decoder works!

Thanks, EV. 

A couple requests.  Could you zoom in on just one packet, so the contents of the ArbID and DLC fields can be seen?  Also, I'd be interested in checking out the Event Table view, to see what it says in the Error field about the lack of an Ack (no other CAN controller on the bus, I assume).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 20, 2013, 06:12:34 pm
finally got mine today :D
and I also got the 10:1 probes ... (I don't really like them though)

hmm, odd ... I have some troubles measuring simple 5 mV and such
the DSO feels kinda sluggish/slow with a timebase of 20 ms ...
I didn't have problems like that with the DSOs I used before :o
also, trying to measure 5 mV (@2mV/div, for example) is not easy, I see a very fat curve lol

the next "problem" I see is, everytime I switch it on my previous settings are gone (and I set it to "last", not "default" state)
 :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 20, 2013, 06:39:27 pm
Here you have it! I hope it is what you wanted.


Thanks, EV. 

A couple requests.  Could you zoom in on just one packet, so the contents of the ArbID and DLC fields can be seen?  Also, I'd be interested in checking out the Event Table view, to see what it says in the Error field about the lack of an Ack (no other CAN controller on the bus, I assume).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TomThomas on December 20, 2013, 09:06:20 pm
Did you order more then 1x DS2072?
10% Discount on a single scope + 2x RP3300 probes for free... great!!!
At which Distributor did you order? I'm also looking for a good priced DS2000(A)



I also got two RP3300A with my scope (DS2072 with hw1.0, but only 4 weeks old), while two RP3300 were advertised. Now I really wanted some 1x probes aswell, so I complained a bit (a lot) and finally got 2 extra RP3300 sent home for free. I didnt have to send my RP3300A back. Where I bought my scope, they're asking 45 euro's for a single RP3300 probe! Don't think they made any money from me, I got a 10% discount on my scope (765 euro) and two extra RP3300 (90 euro), so I only paid +- 675 euro for my scope.

Now, since I've got both, I can also compare them! :-)

The RP3300A have a much better feel than the RP3300. Build is better and they're also better isolated. With the RP3300 I get some glitches in the signals when I hold them in my hands the wrong way (finger close to the 1x/10x switch, probably picking up 50Hz in that case). The RP3300A are also a little bit smaller and thinner than the RP3300. The RP3300 have this yellow cap, to 'shield' the ground when probing on a PCB, but it falls off way too easily (for both probes, do others have this aswell?). I don't have a high frequency generator, so can't compare the bandwidth. Strangely, on some pages on the Rigol homepage, the A are rated at 350MHz, while on others they are rated at 300MHz.

If I'd have to chose between the RP3300 and RP3300A, then I'd go for the A! I'm not going to use the RP3300 in 10x mode, the RP3300A feel much better quality and is better isolated, so the RP3300 will be only used for low bandwidth 1x probing.

Btw, I doubt that either the RP3300 or the RP3300A are very good at 300MHz, but maybe someone already tested the bandwidth.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: apelly on December 20, 2013, 10:22:28 pm
Just found another brand new feature added to the latest firmware (which, honestly, should have been there from the start):

CURSORS in X-Y Mode:
Oops. Been using this since I got my 2072A. Didn't realise it was missing from earlier versions or I would have said something.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on December 21, 2013, 05:05:01 am
Here you have it! I hope it is what you wanted.

A couple requests.  Could you zoom in on just one packet, so the contents of the ArbID and DLC fields can be seen?  Also, I'd be interested in checking out the Event Table view, to see what it says in the Error field about the lack of an Ack (no other CAN controller on the bus, I assume).

Yes, that's it exactly.  Thanks a lot!

Looks very usable.  Personal preference though would be NOT to try and cram in as much of a "Data:" label as possible for each byte in the stream.  That just makes it harder to see the content.  IMO.

ADDED:  BTW, I was not aware that the Event Table could be constrained NOT to take over the screen and overlay the Bus display.  That's quite nice.

And what's that 2nd tab on the Event table, labeled Details?  If that's been there already, I failed to notice it before now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 21, 2013, 06:04:05 am
Here are details.

.
.
And what's that 2nd tab on the Event table, labeled Details?  If that's been there already, I failed to notice it before now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on December 21, 2013, 07:35:26 am
Here are details.

And what's that 2nd tab on the Event table, labeled Details?  If that's been there already, I failed to notice it before now.

Thanks again.  That is interesting, and I've definitely never seen it before.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 21, 2013, 11:45:16 am
I saw it too, yesterday, but I can't enable it anywhere lol
(I don't see the details button on the right side or maybe can't select it because it's greyed out ...)

but can anyone help me measuring low voltages without having the fat curve? because, for some reason, on my old HP DSO (with a CRT) the curve was thin ...

anyone else has troubles using the rotary encoder right to the menu button? it really is sensitive
everytime I just press it, it registers a rotation
for example: I try to select a different probe ratio. turning is is kinda sluggishly jumping to the next value, sometimes it skips 2 or 3
and when you push it after it's successfully on the correct value it jumps to the next value and selects this before the menu closes
it wouldn't be a bad idea if Rigol would make it possible to ALSO use the up/down buttons below to select something in the menu that's currently open (instead of the menu below it)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 21, 2013, 12:07:02 pm
but can anyone help me measuring low voltages without having the fat curve? because, for some reason, on my old HP DSO (with a CRT) the curve was thin ...

Fat curve? What does that mean? Do you mean the size of the trace? If that's what you mean, the method for reducing it is to limit the input signal - either with the 20MHz or 100MHz channel BW limiter or by averaging - either waveforms (Average) or samples (High Res).

Quote
anyone else has troubles using the rotary encoder right to the menu button? it really is sensitive
everytime I just press it, it registers a rotation

You just have to get used it. Yes, it's kind of a pain - but it seems to be the same on all Rigols (and some other Chinese brands). But you will get used to it - now when I push it it only jumps to the next item perhaps 1 time in 10.

Quote
it wouldn't be a bad idea if Rigol would make it possible to ALSO use the up/down buttons below to select something in the menu that's currently open (instead of the menu below it)

For some menu items, they can be selected by just pushing the corresponding menu button.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 21, 2013, 12:21:46 pm
Fat curve? What does that mean? Do you mean the size of the trace? If that's what you mean, the method for reducing it is to limit the input signal - either with the 20MHz or 100MHz channel BW limiter or by averaging - either waveforms (Average) or samples (High Res).

I'll try that :)
yes, I meant the horizontal width of the curve ... on my old DSO I saw a thin line, here I see lotsa noise when I decrease the timebase :o
20 MHz didn't make it better, reduced it only a little bit ...
I don't have any other options yet on a DS2072A ^^

For some menu items, they can be selected by just pushing the corresponding menu button.

true, I didn't write it because I was lazy ;D
but this only jumps to the next value and not to a previous value :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flolic on December 21, 2013, 12:29:51 pm

yes, I meant the horizontal width of the curve ... on my old DSO I saw a thin line, here I see lotsa noise when I decrease the timebase :o
20 MHz didn't make it better, reduced it only a little bit ...


Acquire -> Acquisition ->HighRes
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 21, 2013, 03:01:51 pm
I'll try and see :)
I've used older HP, Philips and new Agilent DSOs before but there's more difference than I expected to be, I really have to get used to it
I've also noticed that the trigger in auto mode doesn't adjust the level as fast as on my old DSO after I changed the V/div value  :o

btw, I saw animated gif screenshots earlier here on this forum.
how were they created? with the rigol software or frame by frame by hand?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 21, 2013, 03:04:10 pm
I2C decode has also details in Event table but RS232 and SPI decodes do not.

Thanks again.  That is interesting, and I've definitely never seen it before.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 21, 2013, 03:25:14 pm
btw, I saw animated gif screenshots earlier here on this forum.
how were they created? with the rigol software or frame by frame by hand?
With the software I wrote: Rigol Ultravision Utilities (RUU) - available in this thread (download link at bottom of first post) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/).  It's especially handy for just getting screen captures from the DSO to the PC in a few seconds - but can also turn recorded frames into animated GIFs or waterfall plots (as well as a bunch of other stuff).

I'm working on a new version now - which will finally allow saving of all file types/sample lengths. Hopefully I'll have it ready within the next couple of weeks...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/?action=dlattach;attach=35113)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/?action=dlattach;attach=39780)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/?action=dlattach;attach=39800)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: murdok on December 21, 2013, 04:39:06 pm
Can somebody confirm following behavior with latest FW on DS2k devices:

1st channel only -> 2GS/s
2nd channel only -> 1GS/s

At least i can't remember reading anything about that.
I expected to have a drop of maximum sample rate from 2GS/s to 1GS/s only in case when both channels are active at once.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 21, 2013, 04:48:40 pm
2nd channel only -> 1GS/s
Hi
When you selected CH2 Only , the Trigger was still on CH1 and as it is different requires 1/2 the sampling.
Once trigger is set to CH2 , (same) the DSO will go to 2GSa/s
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 21, 2013, 04:49:06 pm
So it is. You can find it even in your user guide on specifications.

Can somebody confirm following behavior with latest FW on DS2k devices:

1st channel only -> 2GS/s
2nd channel only -> 1GS/s

At least i can't remember reading anything about that.
I expected to have a drop of maximum sample rate from 2GS/s to 1GS/s only in case when both channels are active at once.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: murdok on December 21, 2013, 06:02:58 pm
Thanks EV & Teneyes,
it was exactly what you guessed - how could i missed that .. argh.

BTW had this problem some days ago when we tried to figure out how good the 'opened' bandwith (lets say noise floor beyond 200MHz) and the probe/cable + shielding is for measuring carriers of some well known rf controlled devices (i.e. FM radio, 433MHz home control systems, etc.)

At least up to 433MHz we got pretty good results (for sure by using extrenal tools for the FFT analysis).
Also noise floor on frequency domain is very even until 500MHz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 21, 2013, 07:39:12 pm
@Marmad:
The % of blind time (between 200ns and 2ns) in the following table is it real or effective?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72666;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 21, 2013, 09:31:13 pm
marmad: you wrote that? great! gonna get it :D
btw, I saw waterfall screenshots/pics of DS2xxx DSOs before, so they've been made with this software?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 21, 2013, 09:52:59 pm
btw, I saw waterfall screenshots/pics of DS2xxx DSOs before, so they've been made with this software?
Yes Dave Jones used it in the review of DS1052 vs DS2000,
A great assistant to the Rigol DSOs, fast, easy to demo and report results.
Help Marmad out @paypal :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Radardude on December 22, 2013, 04:49:52 am
CH1 and CH2 with no input signal has a very small pulse in the noise. As you can see it is in sync with the trigger out. Is this normal?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 22, 2013, 05:38:33 am
CH1 and CH2 with no input signal has a very small pulse in the noise.
Hi , welcome to the Forum
Yes we called that the Trigger Hat, and below the trace the 'Ditch'
Playing with the trigger level will pull the random noise peaks out of the noise floor.
BW filtering limits this effect.
I see you were @5nsec, so I'm thinking you have DS2072

We Discussed it back here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg178311/#msg178311

Have fun :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 22, 2013, 06:43:21 am
Anyone else has troubles using the rotary encoder right to the menu button? it really is sensitive
everytime I just press it, it registers a rotation
for example: I try to select a different probe ratio. turning is is kinda sluggishly jumping to the next value, sometimes it skips 2 or 3
and when you push it after it's successfully on the correct value it jumps to the next value and selects this before the menu closes
it wouldn't be a bad idea if Rigol would make it possible to ALSO use the up/down buttons below to select something in the menu that's currently open (instead of the menu below it)


Yes I agree, and here is a message I sent to Rigol NA
--------------------------------------------------
Here is some feedback on an annoyance that I have encountered with the DS2072.
When using the Multi-function Knob after rotating the knob to my desired selection, I press the Knob, but
I have selected the incorrect pick, options, or letter, I end up picking the one before or the after!!! :(.
This has occurred more than 10 times in the 2 days since I received the Rigol DSO
 
Please understand that I have Large Hands (a 250 Lbs. Canadian Mohawk) and as I push the Multi-function Knob
the Knob turns a bit just before the Push switch is engaged/sensed.
I am not Asian with Diminutive Digits that can Discern Delicate Details.
 
I am suggesting the amount of rotation to jump to the next selection be a bit larger, and as such the few more degrees of rotation should not be detrimental to the easy of operating your Product.

Also
When I am Trying to select the letters in a file name from the menu of horizontal letters
then once the letter is Highlight with a Orange Box
when I push the Multi-function button the letter orange box moves.
I have checked the rotation and 6 letters change in 90 degrees rotation
that is 1 letter change in only 15 degrees of rotation ( 24 letters /rev)
NOW the top on the Knob is only 0.375 Inches in diameter
Therefore  a movement of only 0.05 inches ( 1/20 of an inch) will cause the letter to Change
I seriously think this is too sensitive of an Adjustment!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is Rigol's response
    I do. Thank you for the explanation.
     Your measurements are exactly as I experience,
     but I don't seem to have the same issue with the usage.
     My letters are selected as expected.
     I have had this trouble with some of our other scopes....
     and it has to do with how I was pressing the multi-function knob.
     I was actually rotating it a bit when I pressed.
     I will submit that suggestion as an improvement.
     Also, here is the license to reset the trial software options:




To Avoid any rotation of the Multi-function knob during selections,
I have design a new Rigol Selection Tool.
See the Thumbnail picture below.

Feel free to grow your own.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: XaS on December 22, 2013, 09:21:11 am
I have similar problems when using the multi function knob. Also, it sometimes skips several entries or in my case causes the cursors to jump over the desired loactions. All in all, the knob is very unprecise in my experience.

FYI, I just found out that there can only be 63 screen captures on a flash drive, after that the scope displays an error that there would be too many files. Interestingly, the 64th picture is then stored as "QuickPrint1" without any file extenstion (since there already is a file "QuickPrint1.png" from before).

XaS
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 22, 2013, 09:27:15 am
I am suggesting the amount of rotation to jump to the next selection be a bit larger...

No matter how large they make the amount of rotation it can always be just on the edge when you press the button, so I think it would make more sense to solve this in the software, like ignoring a turn when it happens less than 100ms before a push or something like that.

And yes, it is annoying, it happens to me too.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Tasman on December 22, 2013, 10:34:00 am
I agree that the control is too sensitive.  The wrong selection problem occurs because the process of releasing the knob after turning to the required setting, then placing the thumb on the knob, then pressing -  always turns the control one way or another.  I find that pushing the knob using  the finger and thumb immediately the setting is correct, is the most accurate method, and I now rarely mis-select.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on December 22, 2013, 11:22:59 am
so I think it would make more sense to solve this in the software, like ignoring a turn when it happens less than 100ms before a push or something like that.
Thats exactly the way I would program it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 22, 2013, 12:54:48 pm
yes, I guess the knob/rotary encoder itself is also kinda cheap
but software should fix it
also, from my experiences with other devices, the faster you rotate it, the bigger the steps are to change a value (slow = fine, fast = coarse)
maybe I did something wrong, but I didn't see that on the Rigol yet :)

but I like the DSO more and more :D

I'd like some feature to quickly center on peaks of the FFT curve, too ... rotating a lot to move it by hand on a peak can be annoying ^^

(and I had a similar "peak" on a curve as described above, it looked like some "data transfer" but it was the only one on the signal, no matter what time base I selected)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Rory on December 22, 2013, 03:10:25 pm
While we're on the subject of the rotary control, FFT and such, maybe someone can tell me how to change the time base scale on the time domain display while in FFT without having to turn off Math mode?  It seems really awkward and I use it a lot since that also sets the total bandwidth of the FFT. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 22, 2013, 04:04:12 pm
Yes, multifunctional knob is very touchy. Rarely it utilizes velocity of rotating. For example in Trigger -> Menu -> Setting -> Holdoff - it does. But most cases - no.
Also it's a pity that trigger level knob doesn't use this feature.
I think that waveform playback knob must act as multifunction knob because it is hardly used at all. And it is bigger and has fixed angles, good for selecting something.

I've discovered some bugs (?) with MATH FFT funtion.
After you turn on FFT (MATH -> Operate -> FFT) horizontal controls move and zoom the FFT graph. It's ok.
But then press CH1 button and use horizontal scale knob. The FFT will scale with CH1 waveform as well and will shift to the side. Playing around with both horizontal knobs (rotating and pushing, while CH1 is selected) will force FFT graph to shift and jump around and sometimes to dissapear. To reposition FFT graph you need to press MATH, set required zoom and push POSITION to center the graph.
Also with FFT turned on it is impossible to turn on "delayed sweep" by pushing SCALE horizontal control knob (with CH1 selected). But this may be a processing power limitation. With other MATH functions it's not a problem, "delayed sweep" turns on and works ok.

Also if you turn on MATH -> Anti-Aliasing while in FFT graph will shift to the side and you have to recenter it by pushing horizontal POSITION knob. After turning Anti-Aliasing off you have to do it again. Strage. :-//
When FFT is active you can not add any measurements, it's ok. But when you select something else in Operate box, measurement menu doesn't change color to MATH. To add some measurements on MATH you must push button of any channel and then press MATH again.

Also I'd prefer to turn off MATH function in way that I can do it with CH1, CH2 and REF. If it is selected and I press its button, it turns off. If not selected it selects and if you press a button again - it turns off. But with MATH the button only selects MATH menu and opens/closes it. It doesn't turn it off, you have to go in MATH menu -> Operate and select OFF with that touchy knob. :-/O

My unit: DS2072A, HW: 1.0.2.0.2, SW: 00.02.01.00.03
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 22, 2013, 04:41:38 pm
Back in July I reported to Rigol
=======================
I wish to report a Bug!

Using the FFT on the DS2000, the DSO must maintain the Center frequency
selected at the center of the display as you change through span scales.

At the start, an operator  will set the span set widest to see peak,
Then  the operator  will adjust the position so the peak (or point of
interest) is at the center frequency
After that ,the operator  will narrow span and the display must spread the
frequency holding the center frequency at the Center of the Display!!!.
The DS2000 does NOT do this!

The DSO moves the selected Peak way off the display,
and Making the 'Pissed Off' User constantly  needing to adjust the Center
Frequency.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is Fixed Now
  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 22, 2013, 05:06:14 pm
Something strange with trigger level.

Attach CH1 probe to internal 1 kHz generator and push AUTO. Timebase sets to 200 us and vertical scale to 1 V/div (1:10 probe). Trigger is auto-set to 1.50 V.
Set scale to 500 mV/div and set CH1 position to 1 div from bottom (POS: -1.5 V). Trigger is in the middle of the screen (same 1.50 V) and waveform is 6 divisions amplitude.
Set trigger level to 500 mV (2 divisions from bottom).
Now move CH1 waveform with POSITION knob to the bottom until trigger level dissapears from the screen (it will point that it is somewhere at the bottom). Continue moving waveform down until it is barely visible. Than return it back to 1 div from the bottom. Trigger level will be offset to the top somewhere (it was at 2.54 V in my case).
This also happens with SCALE knob. Readjust trigger level to 500 mV (damn non-velocity sensitive knob!). Than adjust CH1 scale to 20 mV and then set it back to 500 mV. Once again, trigger level will be shifted, this time - down. To 160 mV in this case. :-BROKE

So while trigger level stay on the screen, SCALE and POSITION of CH1 do not affect its level at all. But when trigger level dissapears from the screen it level starts to change. I think is strange. :-// In this case trigger level icon pointing "up" or "down" is pretty useless, because its previous setting is corrupted. It must stay on dialed level or clip withing screen with no "up" or "down" icon. :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 22, 2013, 07:22:01 pm
I think that waveform playback knob must act as multifunction knob because it is hardly used at all. And it is bigger and has fixed angles, good for selecting something.
It does. Note the menu symbol for Navigation Knob from the DS2000 User Manual:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=72759)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Rory on December 22, 2013, 07:37:16 pm
But then press CH1 button and use horizontal scale knob. The FFT will scale with CH1 waveform as well and will shift to the side. Playing around with both horizontal knobs (rotating and pushing, while CH1 is selected) will force FFT graph to shift and jump around and sometimes to dissapear. To reposition FFT graph you need to press MATH, set required zoom and push POSITION to center the graph.
  @ Rory
 Yes the CH1 and Math buttons change the function of the <Scale> Knob.  But as Fagear states  , ackward or bugging
Thanks Fagear and Teneyes. Exactly what I needed to know. I got tired of turning off Math to make the timebase changes then turning FFT back on. Sometimes need to see envelopes in the time domain at slower clockrates than the right rate for the FFT. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 22, 2013, 08:39:14 pm
@Marmad:
The % of blind time (between 200ns and 2ns) in the following table is it real or effective?

Effective blind time. You can see that the active acquisition time is listed as 14x the time base (i.e. the display window - not the 'real' acquisition time).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 22, 2013, 08:49:29 pm
@Marmad:
The % of blind time (between 200ns and 2ns) in the following table is it real or effective?

Effective blind time. You can see that the active acquisition time is listed as 14x the time base (i.e. the display window - not the 'real' acquisition time).
Then the real blind time (%) between 2ns and 200ns would be: 82.46, 88.65, 92.80, 63.06, 81.36, 86.70 and 91.46.
So we can say than for these time bases (2ns-200ns) is always better to use 14K?
If so, would be interesting an automatic mode that selects the most appropriate memory to get the lowest blind time?
What do you think?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 22, 2013, 09:03:25 pm
Then the real blind time (%) between 2ns and 200ns would be: 82.46, 88.65, 92.80, 63.06, 81.36, 86.70 and 91.46.
So we can say than for these time bases (2ns-200ns) is always better to use 14K?

It depends what you're doing. For most Normal uses, the effective blind time is, in a sense, the 'real' blind time - because YOU will be blind to it (i.e. it won't appear on the display) even if the DSO is not technically blind to it. So if a glitch happens in the part of acquisition memory that is off-screen, you'll never see it. But when capturing waveforms for later examination (whether just one - as in Single Shot mode - or many - as in Segments), then the 'real' vs 'effective' blind time actually makes a difference.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 22, 2013, 09:10:50 pm
It depends what you're doing. For most Normal uses, the effective blind time is, in a sense, the 'real' blind time - because YOU will be blind to it (i.e. it won't appear on the display) even if the DSO is not technically blind to it. So if a glitch happens in the part of acquisition memory that is off-screen, you'll never see it. But when capturing waveforms for later examination (whether just one - as in Single Shot mode - or many - as in Segments), then the 'real' vs 'effective' blind time actually makes a difference.
I understand:
"So if a glitch happens in the part of acquisition memory that is off-screen, you'll never see it." But, can the oscilloscope automatically detect it?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TomThomas on December 22, 2013, 09:30:11 pm
It depends what you're doing. For most Normal uses, the effective blind time is, in a sense, the 'real' blind time - because YOU will be blind to it (i.e. it won't appear on the display) even if the DSO is not technically blind to it. So if a glitch happens in the part of acquisition memory that is off-screen, you'll never see it. But when capturing waveforms for later examination (whether just one - as in Single Shot mode - or many - as in Segments), then the 'real' vs 'effective' blind time actually makes a difference.
I understand:
"So if a glitch happens in the part of acquisition memory that is off-screen, you'll never see it." But, can the oscilloscope automatically detect it?
If you know how the disturbance Looks like you could trigger on that.
Digital scopes have this kind of blind time. It's the Technologie... I heard a very nice statement some time ago: Measuring wiht a DSO is like driving a car with closed eyes and just open them from time to time for a very short moment.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 22, 2013, 09:49:46 pm
Digital scopes have this kind of blind time. It's the Technologie... I heard a very nice statement some time ago: Measuring wiht a DSO is like driving a car with closed eyes and just open them from time to time for a very short moment.

Analog scopes also have a blind time (during beam retrace).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TomThomas on December 22, 2013, 10:01:27 pm
Quote
Analog scopes also have a blind time (during beam retrace).

yes, right, but the percentage is much, much smaler... DSO have blind times between 99.99% and 90% of the whole acquisition time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 22, 2013, 10:31:58 pm
It does. Note the menu symbol for Navigation Knob from the DS2000 User Manual:
Yes I know. For example it works for trigger holdoff setting.
But there are many many times when Navigation Knob does nothing. When you using any of on-screen-keyboards (MATH advaced function, option key typing...) Navigation Knob does nothing. And you have to use multifunctional knob that does not have fixed angle, so you cannot feel by your hand how much step did you perform. You have to be careful and stare at the screen while turning the knob.

Just open Trigger -> Type list (if you have all advanced trigger options it is better - more options there) and try to move three (or 4, 5, whatever) positions down (or up) fast. You cannot feel anything by your hand and cursor is laggy. So you have to wait, look, correct yourself and so on (or turn multifunction knob very slowly). :-/O
As for any list in right menu. Navigation Knob simply does nothing there. But it would be great if it will act as multifunctional knob. Because it has fixed angles and you can feel and hear number of steps while you are turning it, you do not have to watch at the screen and wait.

I'd also prefer right menu up/down buttons to scroll through lists. When there is only menu and no list opened - they will do nothing or will scroll "pages" of the menu as usual. It will be great if they would move cursor through the list (as does function key that opened the list, bit it does it only from top to bottom, remember trigger type list?..). It seems so intuitive to me: vertical list, buttons near have "up" and "down" arrow...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 22, 2013, 11:07:54 pm
I understand:
"So if a glitch happens in the part of acquisition memory that is off-screen, you'll never see it." But, can the oscilloscope automatically detect it?
The maskrange, work only for a screen/screen-region, would be great if in a post process, the oscilloscope could capture glitches off-screen (at memory).
Also it could be done with SW on PC.

I have not tried, I wonder if this can be done with the segmented memory... Although I am not clear if it is equivalent in a matter of wfrm/s.
i.e. What is the min. "death time" between interframe?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 22, 2013, 11:12:29 pm
But there are many many times when Navigation Knob does nothing.

I wish the Navigation Knob would also do high speed horizontal position in normal mode the same way it does in delayed sweep and record playback modes.
I also wish that the inner knob had a finger indent so that it could be spun continuously (like many professional video playback controllers).  The way it is designed now, I find it to be almost useless and, instead, use the small horizontal position knob which has the same function but can be spun faster and with more control. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on December 24, 2013, 12:51:35 am
I am suggesting the amount of rotation to jump to the next selection be a bit larger...

No matter how large they make the amount of rotation it can always be just on the edge when you press the button, so I think it would make more sense to solve this in the software, like ignoring a turn when it happens less than 100ms before a push or something like that.

Since it has no way to see into the future (needs faster FPGAs for that :) ) to determine that a push is about to occur, that means it will delay all turn reactions for that same interval.  Aka, "is this a real turn, or an accidental turn while clicking?"

The response from users will then be... "Why is this d@mn thing so laggy?  The responsiveness to the knobs is poor."
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 24, 2013, 01:33:28 am
Since it has no way to see into the future (needs faster FPGAs for that :) ) to determine that a push is about to occur, that means it will delay all turn reactions for that same interval.  Aka, "is this a real turn, or an accidental turn while clicking?"

The response from users will then be... "Why is this d@mn thing so laggy?  The responsiveness to the knobs is poor."

You don't need to delay the response to the knob rotation.
Keep a short FIFO buffer of knob position, sampled every tenth of a second or so while the menu selection is exposed.
When the push occurs, use the position sample that was first stored a half a second ago.
This would ignore any movement of the knob that occurred in the previous half second but the knob rotation would continuously highlight the appropriate menu item without any lag.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jason on December 24, 2013, 08:23:20 am
No matter how large they make the amount of rotation it can always be just on the edge when you press the button, so I think it would make more sense to solve this in the software, like ignoring a turn when it happens less than 100ms before a push or something like that.

Since it has no way to see into the future (needs faster FPGAs for that :) ) to determine that a push is about to occur, that means it will delay all turn reactions for that same interval.  Aka, "is this a real turn, or an accidental turn while clicking?"

The response from users will then be... "Why is this d@mn thing so laggy?  The responsiveness to the knobs is poor."

Here's a better algorithm:  Reset the hysteresis if the knob has stopped moving for 50ms.  In other words, when you pause for a moment it sets a small dead zone and it ignores the spin until you turn 3 degrees in either direction.  This means that after you pause and see that you're on the the correct menu item it won't be right on the edge; clicks are registered instantly; and there's no perceptible spin lag (it starts moving within 3 degrees of rotation and stops immediately).

I desperately wish they'd fix the stupid knobs.  I can't tell you how many times I've tried to spin the horizontal offset to 6.0000ms, going as slow as possible and watching it go:  5.900, 5.9200, 5.9400, 5.9600, 5.9800, 6.2400.  20% of my menu selections miss no matter how careful I am.  This is by far the biggest usability problem I've had with my scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 24, 2013, 08:13:15 pm
Did some testing with the new FW, and updated my Bandwidth chart.

There is not much more bandwidth on a 2072 with option 300 Mhz, the entry
of the 2072 , the non A models, dont get 300 Mhz, mine goes to 280 Mhz.
The lack of a internal 50 ohm terminator...

Also got more noise, see picture with only 1 channel, and then enable channel 2,
the difference is clear, on 1 nS the sample rate is to low for two channels.
The performance is worse on 1 nS then on 2 nS.

I did the test with the DSGH key, see option picture.

So the advantage of the new bandwidth option is not big for the non A models.
You are better off with the 200 Mhz version. So use the DSEZ key for better performance.

Edit 25/12: the key for CAN and 2202, is DSEZ, E for Can and Z for options + 200 Mhz.

Picture of the FFT i added, because i notice better function of the FFT after upgrading to version 2
The FFT function are much better to operate with the new FW.

So my DS2000, is just on the edge of 300 Mhz, on the post pictures below of EV, you an see the
litttle differences between two models, just a few dB, can also be the tolerances in the signal generators.
Normaly a tolerance off 1 dB is normal.

Marmad already stated a few posts back, the non A models where not good enough for 300 Mhz.
they had to modify the entry in the A models.


All measurements are done with the same 2072 and hardware version 1.0.1.0.0
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Kobus on December 24, 2013, 08:15:15 pm
Maybe I am missing something obvious. Is there some quick way to remove measurements from the bottom of the screen.
There are dedicated buttons for adding measurements but I cant find a quick way to clear them.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 24, 2013, 08:17:50 pm
Maybe I am missing something obvious. Is there some quick way to remove measurements from the bottom of the screen.
There are dedicated buttons for adding measurements but I cant find a quick way to clear them.

Measure => clear all items
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Kobus on December 24, 2013, 08:55:15 pm
Maybe I am missing something obvious. Is there some quick way to remove measurements from the bottom of the screen.
There are dedicated buttons for adding measurements but I cant find a quick way to clear them.

Measure => clear all items

That's what I have been doing. It is actually Measure => Clear => All items.

I just found it strange to have dedicated physical buttons for turning them on
and then a menu two levels deep to turn them off.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 24, 2013, 08:55:21 pm
I did also tests with my originally DS2202 scope. The chart is done with manual sweep and the picture with automatic sweep. I have used HP 8642A generator which is connected with about 1.5 meter long RG58 cable using 50 ohm feed through terminator to the scope. Manual sweep gives BW about 300 MHz and automatic sweep about 310 MHz.

I have also measured Rise Times and noticed that if also Ch2 is on measured Rise Time increases about 0.1 ns (from 1.13 ns to 1.22 ns).


Did some testing with the new FW, and updated my Bandwidth chart.
.
.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 24, 2013, 09:22:49 pm
When doing the manual sweep the time base changes all the time and probably has been 1 ns when I have measured 300...350 MHz gain. I don't remember it anymore.

When using automatic sweep the time base is the same all the time (1s per division). So in the picture one division is 25 MHz when sweep time is 14 s.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on December 25, 2013, 12:44:09 pm

Did some testing with the new FW, and updated my Bandwidth chart.

There is not much more bandwidth on a 2072 with option 300 Mhz, the entry
of the 2072 , the non A models, dont get 300 Mhz, mine goes to 280 Mhz.
The lack of a internal 50 ohm terminator...

Also got more noise, see picture with only 1 channel, and then enable channel 2,
the difference is clear, on 1 nS the sample rate is to low for two channels.
The performance is worse on 1 nS then on 2 nS.

I did the test with the DSGH key, see option picture.

So the advantage of the new bandwidth option is not big for the non A models.
You are better off with the 200 Mhz version. So use the DSEH key for better performance.
Is there any chance that that the additional noise/fuzz or whatever artifact is evident in the display with 'channel 2 also active' (New2.png)  is due to the that sample rate dropping from 2GHz down to 1GHz?  Probably not, but I just wanted to ask before giving up on the 300MHz BW for the DS2000 (for the non A anyway).

Also, I have been wondering for some time if going from 200MHz to 300MHz BW was detrimental, because it appeared to me that the increased Overshoot (with 300MHz BW) was likely due to the rising response around 115MHz of the 300MHz BW selection.

What condition is shown in picture 'New6' with the FFT?

Thank you for the very interesting and informative BW data you provided on the DS2000.

In conclusion, I understand that you believe now that 200MHz should be as high as we should go for the DS2000 'non A' version?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 25, 2013, 01:12:15 pm
With respect to the BW:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg353472/#msg353472 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg353472/#msg353472)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 25, 2013, 01:21:06 pm
Storage->Traces.
Once than a trace was loaded , this does not resize if you turning off/on statistics. Is this a bug?
Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 25, 2013, 02:26:43 pm


Is there any chance that that the additional noise/fuzz or whatever artifact is evident in the display with 'channel 2 also active' (New2.png)  is due to the that sample rate dropping from 2GHz down to 1GHz?  Probably not, but I just wanted to ask before giving up on the 300MHz BW for the DS2000 (for the non A anyway).

Also, I have been wondering for some time if going from 200MHz to 300MHz BW was detrimental, because it appeared to me that the increased Overshoot (with 300MHz BW) was likely due to the rising response around 115MHz of the 300MHz BW selection.

What condition is shown in picture 'New6' with the FFT?

Thank you for the very interesting and informative BW data you provided on the DS2000.

In conclusion, I understand that you believe now that 200MHz should be as high as we should go for the DS2000 'non A' version?

I edit my post, the FFT i added because of the improved function of it after the last FW
And yes i think 200 Mhz is the best performance for the non A model, 300 gives some unwanted behavior.

And the differences are to small, 230 versus 280 Mhz...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2013, 03:10:39 pm
I edit my post, the FFT i added because of the improved function of it after the last FW
And yes i think 200 Mhz is the best performance for the non A model, 300 gives some unwanted behavior.

And the differences are to small, 230 versus 280 Mhz...

Makes sense... especially since there was no original DS2303 model. I will only install the license key for it if/when I absolutely need the 1ns/div time base setting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 25, 2013, 05:24:30 pm
Storage->Traces.
How I can delete a Trace after loading? (Without turning off the scope)
Press Clear on the TOP , Trace is just a graphic overlay of what was saved, good for comparing Old  tests.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mtdoc on December 25, 2013, 06:38:09 pm

Also got more noise, see picture with only 1 channel, and then enable channel 2,
the difference is clear, on 1 nS the sample rate is to low for two channels.
The performance is worse on 1 nS then on 2 nS.


There is no 200 MHz bandwidth limit available on the new firmware, correct.? Maybe that would eliminate this noise when the higher badwidth is not needed.

I'm still using cyberbet's fimware at 300 Mhz but with 200 MHz bandwidth limit available. No CAN but I have no use for it right now. Still undecided if I should update to the newest firmware....
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2013, 06:44:15 pm
I'm still using cyberbet's fimware at 300 Mhz but with 200 MHz bandwidth limit available. No CAN but I have no use for it right now. Still undecided if I should update to the newest firmware....

IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 25, 2013, 06:52:23 pm
IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.
Strongly agree.
I just want to add, it is not only the BW, and noise, a base time of 1ns is quite useful.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 25, 2013, 06:59:12 pm
IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.
Strongly agree.
I just want to add, it is not only the BW, and noise, a base time of 1ns is quite useful.

i dont agree, the 1 nSec, has only 2 samples ( one channel) or 1 samples ( two channel)
so be carefull what you measure... can be not so usefool
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2013, 07:00:07 pm
i dont agree, the 1 nSec, has only 4 samples ( one channel) or 2 samples ( 1 channel)

2 samples per div (1 channel) or 1 sample per div (2 channels).

I just want to add, it is not only the BW, and noise, a base time of 1ns is quite useful.

Well, IMO, a 1ns time base with 2 samples per div and a blind time of 99.94% is just moderately useful.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 25, 2013, 07:04:32 pm
IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.
Strongly agree.
I just want to add, it is not only the BW, and noise, a base time of 1ns is quite useful.

i dont agree, the 1 nSec, has only 2 samples ( one channel) or 1 samples ( two channel)
so be carefull what you measure... can be not so usefool
I don't share your opinion, but I respect it. And with repetitive signals is not so usefool.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73070;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73076;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73072;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 25, 2013, 07:11:24 pm
When I save an image with 1ns/div, this happens:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73074;image)

LOL... I found a bug?
Only happens if after pressing RUN/STOP and before saving it the time base is modified and returned to 1ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2013, 07:21:22 pm
LOL... I found a bug?

It can't really be classified as a bug: you're running an option that is not officially available for the DSO you're running it on. If a DS2302A does the same thing (or if Rigol EVER sells BW updates for other DS2000 models) then it could be called a bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 25, 2013, 07:27:19 pm
LOL... I found a bug?

It can't really be classified as a bug: you're running an option that is not officially available for the DSO you're running it on. If a DS2302A does the same thing (or if Rigol EVER sells BW updates for other DS2000 models) then it could be called a bug.
How you call it then?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2013, 07:33:43 pm
How you call it then?

Well, I guess it's technically a bug - but in an unimplemented - and perhaps unfinished? - portion of firmware. So not very relevant.

EDIT: BTW, does not happen when saving via RUU.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mtdoc on December 25, 2013, 08:53:50 pm

IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.

Thanks, you're probably right. Is there a list of all the improvements in the new firmware?

i've seen some different improvements mentioned but no comprehensive list.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2013, 09:19:52 pm
Thanks, you're probably right. Is there a list of all the improvements in the new firmware?

Nothing from Rigol unfortunately. These are all (IIRC) that have been noted by users so far:

New feature: Manual cursors has DisplayMode X-Y.
New feature: Cursors in X-Y mode.
New feature (as option): CAN trigger and decode.
Bug fix: RS-232 baud rate at AUTO 57600.
Bug fix: Bus decoding of full ASCII character set.
Improved: Faster waveform update rates at lower time bases.
Improved: Intensity grading in Delayed Sweep (Zoom) mode.
Improved: FFT functioning.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: elecBlu on December 25, 2013, 10:21:48 pm
Marmad already stated a few posts back, the non A models where not good enough for 300 Mhz.
they had to modify the entry in the A models.

maybe, but all tests so far were at HW 1.0, there were actually some noticeable board/ input stage changes in the non-A HW 2.0. So it is to early to say that for all the non-A models!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2013, 10:25:51 pm
maybe, but all tests so far were at HW 1.0, there were actually some noticeable board/ input stage changes in the non-A HW 2.0. So it is to early to say that for all the non-A models!

I'm fairly sure Wim meant HW v.1 non-A models (which the vast majority of us owners posting here are) - since there weren't nearly as many HW v.2 non-A models sold. It's obvious Rigol got the new PCB design kinks worked out while supplying the back-orders for the original model.

It's quite certain that the HW v.2 models will have a better frequency response - perhaps the same as A-models.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 26, 2013, 09:03:41 am
All bandwidth measurements are made on the same 2072, with hardware version 1.0.1.0.0
i corrected the chart.

sorry for the confusion, there are three major hardware versions on this moment
DS2000 with hw 1.0... DS2000 hw 2.0..  and DS2000A  hw 2.0 with 50 ohm switch.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2013, 01:56:24 pm
My old TEK TDS3032 has 2.5 GS/s and 5 samples per division with 1 ns time base. It is so regardlss whether both or only one channel is on.

But that doesn't make sense mathematically. If 2.5GSa/s is the maximum rate, 400ps is the smallest sample period. That would be 2.5 samples per div @ 1ns. 5 samples per div would require a 5GSa/s rate (200ps sample).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2013, 03:15:29 pm
I do not know about the math, but look at the picture.

Math is math; there is no getting around it. Drawing dots on a display is something else.

Either one of the following HAS to be true:
1) Your DSO samples at a maximum of 2.5G and it gets a sample every 400ps - and then, for whatever reason, it's doubling the number of actual sample points it draws on the screen.
2) Your DSO, for whatever reason, has the 5GSa/s rate of the TDS3052, and it gets a sample every 200ps. Then the number of points on the screen equals the actual real sampling rate.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 26, 2013, 06:24:52 pm
Math is math; there is no getting around it. Drawing dots on a display is something else.

Either one of the following HAS to be true:
1) Your DSO samples at a maximum of 2.5G and it gets a sample every 400ps - and then, for whatever reason, it's doubling the number of actual sample points it draws on the screen.
2) Your DSO, for whatever reason, has the 5GSa/s rate of the TDS3052, and it gets a sample every 200ps. Then the number of points on the screen equals the actual real sampling rate.
Maybe it's magic...

No seriously, as Marmad says: "Math is math".
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 26, 2013, 06:30:01 pm
Well, I guess it's technically a bug - but in an unimplemented - and perhaps unfinished? - portion of firmware. So not very relevant.

EDIT: BTW, does not happen when saving via RUU.
I agree is true, it is not relevant.
RUU -> Superb work.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2013, 08:22:48 am
OK, I have deleted my posts.

from Tek 3032B Manual
Separate Digitizers. Ensure accurate timing measurements with
separate digitizers for each channel. Each digitizer can sample at up
to the maximum sample rate (2.5GSa/s); acquisition on all channels is always
concurrent to provide full single-shot bandwidth on each channel.


So IMO, Tek is  combining samples from 2 channels,
if so Let's deleted all this dicussion, Please
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2013, 12:52:48 pm
Traces when using type as dots or vectors look quite different. Why?
Time base 1 ns, Ch1 and Ch2 both on, HW 1, BW 300 MHz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2013, 03:08:18 pm
from Tek 3032B Manual
Separate Digitizers. Ensure accurate timing measurements with
separate digitizers for each channel. Each digitizer can sample at up
to the maximum sample rate (2.5GSa/s); acquisition on all channels is always
concurrent to provide full single-shot bandwidth on each channel.


So IMO, Tek is  combining samples from 2 channels,
if so Let's deleted all this dicussion, Please

This didn't really solve the mystery - since EV had posted an image with both channels on and samples displayed every 200ps. There is no way the scope could combine samples to do that; it's impossible (it could do it for 1 channel - but not for both). Anyway, we don't necessarily need to discuss it further here - but if I was EV, I'd probably do some tests to figure out exactly what my real max. sample rate was.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 27, 2013, 04:14:42 pm
Traces when using type as dots or vectors look quite different. Why?
Time base 1 ns, Ch1 and Ch2 both on, HW 1, BW 300 MHz.
It looks like a sinx/x interpolation, but it is weird.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2013, 04:58:25 pm
I noticed it already here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/1785/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/1785/)
There time base is 2 ns.

Wim13 explained then:
"There is always something like cross talk between channels.
To the book Rigol claims cross talk between ch1 and 2 better then 40 dB"

I however now noticed that there is not this trasition in the Dots picture. The trace there looks same as if Ch2 is not on.


Traces when using type as dots or vectors look quite different. Why?
Time base 1 ns, Ch1 and Ch2 both on, HW 1, BW 300 MHz.
It looks like a sinx/x interpolation, but it is weird.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 27, 2013, 09:36:02 pm
I noticed it already here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/1785/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/1785/)
There time base is 2 ns.

Wim13 explained then:
"There is always something like cross talk between channels.
To the book Rigol claims cross talk between ch1 and 2 better then 40 dB"

I however now noticed that there is not this trasition in the Dots picture. The trace there looks same as if Ch2 is not on.
Traces when using type as dots or vectors look quite different. Why?
Time base 1 ns, Ch1 and Ch2 both on, HW 1, BW 300 MHz.
It looks like a sinx/x interpolation, but it is weird.

There seems to be a problem with the sample-to-display interpolation algorithm (sin(x)/x) when the horizontal time base is faster than about 20ns/div.
The dots display looks reasonable but the vector display introduces interpolation artifacts when the distance between sample points spans a larger number of pixels on the display.  This can be seen more easily in single sweep mode.  The dots reliably form a smooth curve but the vectors tend to "zig zag" between adjacent sample points with multiple 2 or 3 pixel steps in opposite directions as the trace moves from one sample point to the next.  On a free running sweep, these display artifacts appear as a noisier trace.

This also partially explains why enabling CH2 increases the apparent noise on CH1.  The sampling rate is cut in half causing the distance between sample points to double (producing more display artifacts) for a given time base setting.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2013, 09:55:28 pm
Thanks JDubU! This sounds good explanation.

There seems to be a problem with the sample-to-display interpolation algorithm (sin(x)/x) when the horizontal time base is faster than about 20ns/div.
The dots display looks reasonable but the vector display introduces interpolation artifacts when the distance between sample points spans a larger number of pixels on the display.  This can be seen more easily in single sweep mode.  The dots reliably form a smooth curve but the vectors tend to "zig zag" between adjacent sample points with multiple 2 or 3 pixel steps in opposite directions as the trace moves from one sample point to the next.  On a free running sweep, these display artifacts appear as a noisier trace.

This also explains why enabling CH2 increases the apparent noise on CH1.  The sampling rate is cut in half causing the distance between sample points to double (producing more display artifacts) for a given time base setting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2013, 09:56:04 pm
There seems to be a problem with the sample-to-display interpolation algorithm (sin(x)/x) when the horizontal time base is faster than about 20ns/div.

I haven't noticed this. Can you post some documentation to illustrate?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2013, 11:17:29 pm
Note that the steps are multiple display pixels high....

By multiple, do you mean a multiple of 2? The Rigol maps 200 possible ADC values to a 400 pixel high display - steps are ALWAYS a minimum of 2 pixels - it doesn't matter what time base or interpolation method you use.

Quote
...with several examples of inappropriate direction reversals between sample points.

What you're talking about here is noise fluctuation between 3-4 quantization levels (which is 1-2 bits); normal on digital oscilloscopes. This has nothing to do with sin(x)/x - and can be found at every time base if you STOP the DSO and 'zoom' in on the trace with vertical scale.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 27, 2013, 11:48:26 pm
Note that the steps are multiple display pixels high....

By multiple, do you mean a multiple of 2? The Rigol maps 200 possible ADC values to a 400 pixel high display - steps are ALWAYS a minimum of 2 pixels - it doesn't matter what time base or interpolation method you use.

Quote
...with several examples of inappropriate direction reversals between sample points.

What you're talking about here is noise fluctuation between 3-4 quantization levels (which is 1-2 bits); normal on digital oscilloscopes. This has nothing to do with sin(x)/x - and can be found at every time base if you STOP the DSO and 'zoom' in on the trace with vertical scale.

By multiple, I mean that the available vertical display resolution is not being used to its best advantage by the interpolation algorithm.   The individual, lower resolution ADC values may map to locations that are separated by multiple display pixels, but the interpolated trace that connects them is not limited to the resolution of the ADC.  The interpolation algorithm should produce smooth traces that fully utilize the available vertical resolution of the display. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 28, 2013, 12:13:18 am
By multiple, I mean that the available vertical display resolution is not being used to its best advantage by the interpolation algorithm.   The individual, lower resolution ADC values may map to locations that are separated by multiple display pixels, but the interpolated trace that connects them is not limited to the resolution of the ADC.  The interpolation algorithm should produce smooth traces that fully utilize the available vertical resolution of the display.

All of the interpolation is done on the original 8-bit values - with scaling for the display done as the last stage of the process (which I believe most lower-prices DSOs do - see attached image from Agilent X-3000 showing a minimum of 2 pixel steps - and even some quantization error at the top of the second sine wave). This method also guarantees that the display memory produces 8-bit values when read by another device.

In any case, what you've pointed out is not a 'problem with the sample-to-display interpolation algorithm' - it's the way it's normally done - and while your suggestion would lead to a nicer looking waveform when the DSO was stopped, it would definitely be slower.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 28, 2013, 01:07:33 am
By multiple, I mean that the available vertical display resolution is not being used to its best advantage by the interpolation algorithm.   The individual, lower resolution ADC values may map to locations that are separated by multiple display pixels, but the interpolated trace that connects them is not limited to the resolution of the ADC.  The interpolation algorithm should produce smooth traces that fully utilize the available vertical resolution of the display.

All of the interpolation is done on the original 8-bit values - with scaling for the display done as the last stage of the process (which I believe most lower-prices DSOs do - see attached image from Agilent X-3000 showing a minimum of 2 pixel steps - and even some quantization error at the top of the second sine wave). This method also guarantees that the display memory produces 8-bit values when read by another device.

In any case, what you've pointed out is not a 'problem with the sample-to-display interpolation algorithm' - it's the way it's normally done - and while your suggestion would lead to a nicer looking waveform when the DSO was stopped, it would definitely be slower.

The problem is that the interpolation algorithm is adding the appearance of higher frequency content than what the ADC is actually measuring.  The ADC is only producing the "dots" display.  Everything in between the dots in the vector display should be as close to an estimate of what the waveform looks like as possible.  This is the role of the sin(x)/x convolution window which attempts to use Nyquist criteria to reasonably interpolate what the actual waveform is doing between measured sample points.  Since these are simply mathematically derived estimates and not measured, there is no reason that there should be higher frequency content in the interpolation than there is in the dots display itself.   It seems like what is happening (and what you describe) is that the interpolation is rounding off to the nearest of the 256 quantization levels of the ADC rather than to the 400 level vertical resolution of the display and then linearly scaling (with more roundoff error) to the vertical display resolution.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 28, 2013, 01:26:36 am
The problem is that the interpolation algorithm is adding the appearance of higher frequency content than what the ADC is actually measuring.  The ADC is only producing the "dots" display.  Everything in between the dots in the vector display should be as close to an estimate of what the waveform looks like as possible.  This is the role of the sin(x)/x convolution window which attempts to use Nyquist criteria to reasonably interpolate what the actual waveform is doing between measured sample points.  Since these are simply mathematically derived estimates and not measured, there is no reason that there should be higher frequency content in the interpolation than there is in the dots display itself.   It seems like what is happening (and what you describe) is that the interpolation is rounding off to the nearest of the 256 quantization levels of the ADC rather than to the 400 level vertical resolution of the display and then linearly scaling (with more roundoff error) to the vertical display resolution.

I don't agree that there is higher frequency content added: there is quantization and rounding error - again, visible in the Agilent's screen capture as well - and within the error bounds of the DSO. But it seems to me you have a very simplified idea about how the captured samples end up as interpolated display. If vectors are ON, the display memory ALWAYS contains 1400 bytes (700 vectors) - it doesn't matter if the ADC captures 14M - or - 28 samples during the acquisition window. There are a WHOLE bunch of steps involved in arriving at those 1400 bytes - just one of which is the actual sin(x)/x or linear interpolation algorithm.

But anyway, it's late and I'm done here - if you want to believe there is a problem with the Rigol, fine by me.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on December 28, 2013, 01:42:24 am
The problem is that the interpolation algorithm is adding the appearance of higher frequency content than what the ADC is actually measuring.  The ADC is only producing the "dots" display.  Everything in between the dots in the vector display should be as close to an estimate of what the waveform looks like as possible.  This is the role of the sin(x)/x convolution window which attempts to use Nyquist criteria to reasonably interpolate what the actual waveform is doing between measured sample points.  Since these are simply mathematically derived estimates and not measured, there is no reason that there should be higher frequency content in the interpolation than there is in the dots display itself.   It seems like what is happening (and what you describe) is that the interpolation is rounding off to the nearest of the 256 quantization levels of the ADC rather than to the 400 level vertical resolution of the display and then linearly scaling (with more roundoff error) to the vertical display resolution.

I don't agree that there is higher frequency content added: there is quantization and rounding error - again, visible in the Agilent's screen capture as well - and within the error bounds of the DSO. But it seems to me you have a very simplified idea about how the captured samples end up as interpolated display. If vectors are ON, the display memory ALWAYS contains 1400 bytes (700 vectors) - it doesn't matter if the ADC captures 14M - or - 28 samples during the acquisition window. There are a WHOLE bunch of steps involved in arriving at those 1400 bytes - just one of which is the actual sin(x)/x or linear interpolation algorithm.

But anyway, it's late and I'm done here - if you want to believe there is a problem with the Rigol, fine by me.  :)

Thanks for the discussion Marmad.
Have a good night.   :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 28, 2013, 01:02:10 pm
Here are displays showing how variations in the trigger timing result in sample dots occuring at different points along the sin wave curve. With the noise the dots are shown as streaks and clusters
The displays
1. Shows input as a display in vectors
2. Shows input as a display of dots
3. Shows input as a display of dots SINGLE scan
4. Shows input as a display of dots with trigger level higher and there is a streak of dots
5. Shows input as a display of 1 small cluster of dots with trigger level higher
6. Shows input as a display of 3 small cluster of dots at some conditions.
7. Shows input as a display of 3 small cluster of dots under some conditions. With 'Trigger out' fed into chan 2

I hope this helps explain how the DS2000 operates.

Is the variations of the trigger point by design, or an effect of noise & clock variations??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: cyr on December 28, 2013, 01:12:33 pm
Not quite sure I understand your question, but of course the sample points will be at different points on the signal unless it happens to be perfectly synchronized with the sampling clock of the scope... 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 28, 2013, 03:47:37 pm
@Teneyes: This reminds me to the persistence effect. Although probably not have anything to do.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73452;image)

Note: Very nice the point clouds.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 28, 2013, 10:47:43 pm
Also got more noise, see picture with only 1 channel, and then enable channel 2,
the difference is clear, on 1 nS the sample rate is to low for two channels.
The performance is worse on 1 nS then on 2 nS.

@Wim: I think the problem in the images you posted has to do with the intensity-grading - not with noise or sample rate. Rigol seems to have fixed the intensity-grading issues in Delayed Sweep mode, but not those when two channels are turned on in Normal Sweep at time bases <= 50ns/div (I reported both problems to them via Drieg back in early June).

Look at this sequence of images made at 1ns/div: all of them have intensity set to 50% - except the last one, which is intensity at 0%. You can see that with two channels on in Delayed Sweep, the intensity is a pretty good match to the images with just one channel on. But in Normal Sweep, the intensity has to be set to 0% to get a closer match.

EDIT: I've added the following back into the bug list at the beginning:

2) The way the scope handles intensity grading at time bases <= 50ns/div when two channels are enabled with Normal Sweep is not the same as all other modes - it feels incongruous and incorrect.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03]
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 29, 2013, 04:19:48 am
Intensity grade seems ok at slow scan rates, but not so good as scan rate increases
for both channels. Faster than 200nsec/div is limit
Does it seem that the min. persistence should vary for each condition and it does NOT?

1Ch alone seems OK
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2013, 08:53:17 am
Here are pictures abot this 2 channel trace problem. There are first 3 pairs of pictures with 1, 2 and 5 ns time base. Pictures with vectors and dots are from same sweep in normal single mode. 2 last pictures are from auto sweep.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2013, 09:00:24 am
It looks that this sin(x)/(x) algoritm is not working very well if both channels are on.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2013, 02:05:55 pm
Yes, Sin(x)/X interpolation is outside the linear path. This can not be the correct way to do the algoritm. This is probably problem only with fast rising pulses and short time bases.  It works however fine if only one channel is on. It is enough for me.

@ EV   note that with 2CH there are less samples so the Sin(x)/X interpolation will make the curve go off the linear path
.
.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2013, 02:10:35 pm
Yes, Sin(x)/X interpolation is outside the linear path.
Sin(x)/x is NOT a linear path - lots of information you can read about it online.  ;)

"Unlike the narrow pointed triangle of linear interpolation, the window for SinX interpolation is a theoretically never ending damped sinewave. "

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73601)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2013, 02:28:03 pm
OK, maybe it works correctly, but there are too few sample points for this fast rising pulse. Thanks for the picture! I am very lazy to read manuals and any other information.  ;) ;D

Sin(x)/x is NOT a linear path - lots of information you can read about it online.  ;)

"Unlike the narrow pointed triangle of linear interpolation, the window for SinX interpolation is a theoretically never ending damped sinewave. "

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2013, 02:45:25 pm
Here is for comparison the picture with same traces from my old TEK TDS3032. It is 300 MHz scope but the measured BW is over 400 MHz and it has 5 points per division as I told before.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2013, 02:53:18 pm
OK, maybe it works correctly, but there are too few sample points for this fast rising pulse. Thanks for the picture! I am very lazy to read manuals and any other information.  ;) ;D

 ;D

Well, the main thing to remember is that sin(x)/x is susceptible to errors if the original signal contains frequencies higher than the Nyquist frequency. At 1GSa/s (maximum with 2 channels on), that happens to be 500MHz. With the 300MHz enabled on a DS2000 HW v.1 model, 500MHz is around -12dB (according to Wim's chart) - so if you have questions about interpolation errors, you might also try it with the 100MHz BW filter on.

Here is for comparison the picture with same traces from my old TEK TDS3032. It is 300 MHz scope but the measured BW is over 400 MHz and it has 5 points per division as I told before.

Yes, I think your TDS3032 might be a TDS3052 by mistake  ;)   If your sampling rate is 5GSa/s, then the Nyquist frequency is 2GHz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2013, 03:32:06 pm
Here are 2 pictures with BW limit 100 MHz. Deviation from dots path can still be seen.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2013, 03:48:37 pm
Here are 2 pictures with BW limit 100 MHz. Deviation from dots path can still be seen.
Can you please post the following image again - taken with the DSO running and Wave Intensity = 0%?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=73580)


And BTW, EV, why are your Rigol screen colors different than everybody else that posts images?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2013, 04:17:02 pm
Can you please post the following image again - taken with the DSO running and Wave Intensity = 0%?

It is attached. I can not see the picture in your post, but I can get it from its url.

And BTW, EV, why are your Rigol screen colors different than everybody else that posts images?

I have added lightnig to the pictures. The attached picture is not manipulated.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 29, 2013, 04:22:10 pm
My results (Trigger mode normal):
- Vectors an Dots for one single pulse.
- Vectors an Dots for a pulse train.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 29, 2013, 04:28:21 pm
Now, (trigger auto) a pulse train, with wave intensity = 0% and 100%.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 29, 2013, 04:33:13 pm
I think it is due to the overlap of many waveforms slightly different each time, and the wave intensity processing. Like the persistence effect.



Note: Test now with average acquisition mode and only 2 averages.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2013, 04:40:32 pm
I have added lightnig to the pictures. The attached picture is not manipulated.

Thanks! If you compare this 1ns/div image with the 100MHz BW limited 1ns/div image in your previous post, the BW limit seems to have had an effect.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: poida_pie on December 30, 2013, 03:34:25 am
BUG in latest f/w, 02.01

Delayed sweep malfunctions.
To reproduce:
Ch2 must be enabled, Ch1 optional
acquire:  7M samples, normal
trigger: ch1 or not important, Auto or Normal seems to have no effect
main timebase 500us/div, delayed t.b. 100 us/div or something
Then when you move the delayed t.b. towards 1 ns/div all seems well until you select 1 ns/div..
It locks up for about 10 seconds, no waveform update, no response to keys.
Then it comes good and lets you go back to 2ns/div

Of course this DS2072 is using the latest enable everything serial codes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2013, 03:46:26 am
BUG in latest f/w, 02.01

Delayed sweep malfunctions.
To reproduce:
Ch2 must be enabled, Ch1 optional
acquire:  7M samples, normal
trigger: ch1 or not important, Auto or Normal seems to have no effect
main timebase 500us/div, delayed t.b. 100 us/div or something
Then when you move the delayed t.b. towards 1 ns/div all seems well until you select 1 ns/div..
It locks up for about 10 seconds, no waveform update, no response to keys.
Then it comes good and lets you go back to 2ns/div

I see what you're talking about, but as mentioned earlier in the thread in regards to problems with the 1ns time base:

It's another error (and there's a few of them) in an, as yet, officially unimplemented - and perhaps unfinished? - portion of firmware. As far as I know, Rigol has not started selling BW updates - but if/when someone on the forum has a DS2302A (or DS2302A-S), we can find out if the error(s) exist in the 'official' working version - and if so, report it to Rigol.

I suggest disabling 300MHz on non-A HW v.1 models. Not only is it buggy (I've had a couple of crashes from it), but it's not really perfectly implemented in the input stage.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 30, 2013, 11:39:18 am
How is it possible to uninstall only BW option?

I suggest disabling 300MHz on non-A HW v.1 models. Not only is it buggy (I've had a couple of crashes from it), but it's not really perfectly implemented in the input stage.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on December 30, 2013, 11:59:18 am
How is it possible to uninstall only BW option?

Do ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" and then generate new keys without 300 MHz option (with 200 MHz for example) and install them.
It can be two keys: DSAZ (200 MHz, MEM, DC, AT) then DSEA (CAN).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 30, 2013, 12:23:44 pm
So there is no way to uninstall only one option!  ;D

Do ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" and then generate new keys without 300 MHz option (with 200 MHz for example) and install them.
It can be two keys: DSAZ (200 MHz, MEM, DC, AT) then DSEA (CAN).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 30, 2013, 01:34:03 pm
How is it possible to uninstall only BW option?
Do ":SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall" and then generate new keys without 300 MHz option (with 200 MHz for example) and install them.
It can be two keys: DSAZ (200 MHz, MEM, DC, AT) then DSEA (CAN).
Or simply use DSEZ instead as the only key, to combine CAN with all the options included in DSAZ (200 MHz, MEM, DC, AT) into a single key.
Read my post about this in the other topic here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg356379/#msg356379 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg356379/#msg356379)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2013, 07:05:44 pm
Just to let people know - I found still another bug in 300MHz option on my HW v.1 non-A DS2000:

At some point (I don't know when or how), the vertical trigger position got offset by a few nanoseconds (visible at any time base < ~50ns) - and nothing I tried could get it back in position. As soon as I removed the 300MHz option - it was back perfectly in the center.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 30, 2013, 08:36:33 pm
Are you going to do a separate list of these bugs? So we could check if they are in the next FW uodate.

Just to let people know - I found still another bug in 300MHz option on my HW v.1 non-A DS2000:
.
.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2013, 08:52:51 pm
Are you going to do a separate list of these bugs? So we could check if they are in the next FW uodate.

I don't think I would bother unless someone with a HW v.2 model (or A model) confirms each bug on their DSO. Some of the bugs might be hardware (v.1) related - and so would never get fixed by Rigol. Besides, EV, honestly, I'm not sure 300MHz is a good choice on hardware that wasn't designed for it.

I tested 300MHz option for about 3 weeks - and I had a few crashes - even one where the DSO started incorrectly believing it was a 2072 until I rebooted. Then today, after my trigger got screwed up and couldn't be corrected, I uninstalled it. Now at least if the DSO crashes, I will know that it's not because of the 300MHz option.

But if someone else wants to compile a list, I'm happy to tack it on at the beginning of the thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 30, 2013, 08:55:41 pm
I don't think I would bother unless someone with a HW v.2 model (or A model) confirms each bug on their DSO.

I have a non-A version 2 hardware, can you point out one or more bugs that are easy reproduced? I can do some tests tomorrow.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2013, 09:04:08 pm
I have a non-A version 2 hardware, can you point out one or more bugs that are easy reproduced? I can do some tests tomorrow.
Well, I don't know what caused my various crashes and strange behavior (which is one reason I wanted to uninstall that option) - but here are two other bugs reported that could be reproduced:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg356180/#msg356180 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg356180/#msg356180)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg353620/#msg353620 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg353620/#msg353620)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 30, 2013, 09:04:41 pm
I uninstalled BW 300M option. I can still get 1 ns time base from saved setup file with 1 ns time base. It goes away if I rotate horisontal scale button.

There is not much use with this option with so few sample points. There is about 2 dB difference at 300 MHz between DS2202 (-5 dB) and DS2302 (-3 dB). Both give trace from 300 MHz signal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mgrim on December 30, 2013, 11:29:46 pm
But it seems to me you have a very simplified idea about how the captured samples end up as interpolated display. If vectors are ON, the display memory ALWAYS contains 1400 bytes (700 vectors) - it doesn't matter if the ADC captures 14M - or - 28 samples during the acquisition window. There are a WHOLE bunch of steps involved in arriving at those 1400 bytes - just one of which is the actual sin(x)/x or linear interpolation algorithm.

Hmm, that sounds interesting.

Could you please explain what the data in display memory actually is?

I've always wondered why there are 1400 bytes while the display is only 700 points wide, but wasn't able to come up with any verifiable scheme.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2013, 12:00:50 am
Could you please explain what the data in display memory actually is?

I've always wondered why there are 1400 bytes while the display is only 700 points wide, but wasn't able to come up with any verifiable scheme.

It's easier to visualize if you think of display memory as 700 'columns' of amplitude - instead of points. The DSO does peak-to-peak decimation, so the minimum and maximum amplitudes in a sample period are stored as vector endpoints for each column.

So, for example, if the DSO is decimating a 14k sample size, each column will contain the min. to max. amplitude found in each group of 20 samples.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2013, 02:06:18 am
I have similar problems when using the multi function knob. Also, it sometimes skips several entries or in my case causes the cursors to jump over the desired loactions. All in all, the knob is very unprecise in my experience.

I have very few problems with the multi-function knob skipping (and I have big hands) because of developing a specific way of using it when selecting things. Of course, when using it only for adjustment (like intensity), you can just rotate it normally - but if you want to experience very few skips when selecting, you need to develop a special method such as the following:

It has everything to do with the way you grip it (see image): my thumb is on the bottom edge of the knob front, while my index finger is on the top edge at the very back of the knob (snug against the case), with my hand supported by my 3 free fingers. The knob is turned precisely with opposing motions of the thumb and index finger (their positions don't change), and when the desired selection is reached, my grip tightens slightly with my index finger pushing slightly down and back against the case - while the thumb pushes slightly up and inward - essentially locking the knob from rotating during the click.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 31, 2013, 02:28:13 am
Even my DSOX2000 has a small multifunction knob. I wish it was bigger. At Owon and Tektronix they have big multi knobs.  :-+
EEVblog #187 - Tektronix TDS2024C Oscilloscope Teardown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K04bHJJQQA#ws)
Even two big multipurpose knobs!  :-+
Tektronix Mixed Domain Oscilloscope MDO4000 Review - EEVblog #199 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gImgpxrchI#ws)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-owon-tds-series-4-channel-dpo-oscilloscopes!-%28soon%29/?action=dlattach;attach=59466;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2013, 02:29:58 am
Even my DSOX2000 has a small multifunction knob. I wish it was bigger. At Owon and Tektronix they have big multi knobs.

The knob size is fine - I wouldn't want to lose anything else to make room for a bigger one.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2013, 02:54:55 am
Just a tiny video for fun - showing how fast and easy it is to use the multifunction knob when you use the right grip.

This a totally unrehearsed, first-take video in which I type out "rigol ds2000 oscilloscope" on the software keyboard without selection errors in 50 seconds (although I could do it faster if I stopped laughing while shooting and actually gave some thought to each letter I needed next while selecting). I never attempted this before the video - and in fact, I've barely ever used the Rigol 'keyboard' (always using default names). Maybe this can be a challenge for who can get the fastest time (without errors)?  ;)

Using the Rigol multifunction knob (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB3Xrfi2srM#)

EDIT: Just managed 38 seconds when I put some thought and concentration into it - so an average of 1.52 seconds for each of the 25 selections.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 31, 2013, 08:39:39 am
After uninstalling BW 300M option BW has changed from 300 MHz to 240 MHz. Rise time has changed from 1.15 ns to 1.38 ns and over shoot has changed from 11.0 % to 8.5 %.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 31, 2013, 10:15:13 am
I have similar problems when using the multi function knob. Also, it sometimes skips several entries or in my case causes the cursors to jump over the desired loactions. All in all, the knob is very unprecise in my experience.
I have very few problems with the multi-function knob skipping (and I have big hands) because of developing a specific way of using it when selecting things. Of course, when using it only for adjustment (like intensity), you can just rotate it normally - but if you want to experience very few skips when selecting, you need to develop a special method such as the following:

It has everything to do with the way you grip it (see image): my thumb is on the bottom edge of the knob front, while my index finger is on the top edge at the very back of the knob (snug against the case), with my hand supported by my 3 free fingers. The knob is turned precisely with opposing motions of the thumb and index finger (their positions don't change), and when the desired selection is reached, my grip tightens slightly with my index finger pushing slightly down and back against the case - while the thumb pushes slightly up and inward - essentially locking the knob from rotating during the click.
This got me thinking about when Steve Jobs said people were holding it wrong when customers complained about poor iPhone antenna signal.  >:D :-BROKE
(http://www.troyrutter.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/holding_iphone_wrong.jpg)


Maybe a new workshop mug to remind people to hold their scope knob correctly could come in handy.
(http://duschkumpane.org/images/iMug.png)


And a new slogan idea for Dave's EEVblog T-shirts.
(http://rlv.zcache.com/youre_holding_it_wrong_shirt_black-r6ab4bf9af0af4541926a34b2d4d736cb_va6lr_324.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 31, 2013, 10:20:36 am
After uninstalling BW 300M option BW has changed from 300 MHz to 240 MHz. Rise time has changed from 1.15 ns to 1.38 ns and over shoot has changed from 11.0 % to 8.5 %.

You reversed the picture titles.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 31, 2013, 10:27:17 am
After uninstalling BW 300M option BW has changed from 300 MHz to 240 MHz. Rise time has changed from 1.15 ns to 1.38 ns and over shoot has changed from 11.0 % to 8.5 %.
You reversed the picture titles.
Don't think so, the 300 MHz picture has faster rise time [1.148 ns] than the 200 MHz one [1.375 ns] as it should.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on December 31, 2013, 10:31:37 am
After uninstalling BW 300M option BW has changed from 300 MHz to 240 MHz. Rise time has changed from 1.15 ns to 1.38 ns and over shoot has changed from 11.0 % to 8.5 %.
You reversed the picture titles.
Don't think so, the 300 MHz picture has faster rise time [1.148 ns] than the 200 MHz one [1.375 ns] as it should.
After having a coffee and looking again you are right, it's just that the preview of the 200 Mhz one looks faster and I went wrong from there.  :palm:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 31, 2013, 10:38:09 am
After uninstalling BW 300M option BW has changed from 300 MHz to 240 MHz. Rise time has changed from 1.15 ns to 1.38 ns and over shoot has changed from 11.0 % to 8.5 %.
You reversed the picture titles.
Don't think so, the 300 MHz picture has faster rise time [1.148 ns] than the 200 MHz one [1.375 ns] as it should.
After having a coffee and looking again you are right, it's just that the preview of the 200 Mhz one looks faster and I went wrong from there.  :palm:
Yeah that's the problem when one pic has a 1 ns timebase and the other pic has a 2 ns timebase.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 31, 2013, 11:09:07 am
It must not be too easy!  ;D

Yeah that's the problem when one pic has a 1 ns timebase and the other pic has a 2 ns timebase.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on December 31, 2013, 12:33:09 pm
Just a tiny video for fun - showing how fast and easy it is to use the multifunction knob when you use the right grip.

This a totally unrehearsed, first-take video in which I type out "rigol ds2000 oscilloscope" on the software keyboard without selection errors in 50 seconds...

EDIT: Just managed 38 seconds when I put some thought and concentration into it - so an average of 1.52 seconds for each of the 25 selections.

Show off!    ;D  :clap:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 31, 2013, 12:46:32 pm
The next picture is from BATRONIX web site. There is told that with new measuring input stages the over shoot is below 5 %. The amplitude there is 5 mV when in my pictures it is 240 mV and the rise time of the pulse is < 70 ps.

After uninstalling BW 300M ..... and over shoot has changed from 11.0 % to 8.5 %.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 31, 2013, 01:09:41 pm
Here is rise time of scopes trigger out pulse. Its amplitude is 1.5 V and rise time about 1 ns probably. So the rise time of the pulse is much slower than the rise time of the pulse from TEK Type 284 generator.  The measured rise time is 1.5 ns and over shoot only 3.5 % with old measuring input stage.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 31, 2013, 01:39:22 pm
I am really interested to know the new values (and also the others, C and R without marking code) of the input stage. 
And also I want to know where are connected the following points (Red circles).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=74017;image)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 31, 2013, 02:09:37 pm
The next picture is from BATRONIX web site. There is told that with new measuring input stages the over shoot is below 5 %. The amplitude there is 5 mV when in my pictures it is 240 mV and the rise time of the pulse is < 70 ps.

After uninstalling BW 300M ..... and over shoot has changed from 11.0 % to 8.5 %.
Here is rise time of scopes trigger out pulse. Its amplitude is 1.5 V and rise time about 1 ns probably. So the rise time of the pulse is much slower than the rise time of the pulse from TEK Type 284 generator.  The measured rise time is 1.5 ns and over shoot only 3.5 % with old measuring input stage.

What exactly are you talking about or think Batronix/Rigol are talking about when referring to new and old measuring input stages respectively.

I'm pretty sure when Batronix wrote "new measuring input stages", they were not referring to HW 2, but just referring to DS2000 in general and that it was written when the old HW 1 was all there was known. IIRC this has been on their website for a long time: http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html)
So when they wrote "new measuring input stages" they were not comparing HW 2 to HW 1, but just comparing DS2000 to older Rigol series scopes, maybe like DS1000E series which might have a bigger overshoot.

Batronix haven't even updated their website yet to mention anything a bout DS2000A series scopes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on December 31, 2013, 02:13:43 pm
What exactly are you talking about or think Batronix/Rigol are talking about when referring to new and old measuring input stages respectively.

I'm pretty sure when Batronix wrote "new measuring input stages", they were not referring to HW 2, but just referring to DS2000 in general and that it was written when the old HW 1 was all there was known. IIRC this has been on their website for a long time: http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html)
So when they wrote "new measuring input stages" they were not comparing HW 2 to HW 1, but just comparing DS2000 to older Rigol series scopes, maybe like DS1000E series which might have a bigger overshoot.

Batronix haven't even updated their website yet to mention anything a bout DS2000A series scopes.
Yeap, that seems. Although I'm not 100% sure.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 31, 2013, 02:20:14 pm
Yeap, that seems. Although I'm not 100% sure.
I just checked "The Way Back Machine" to make sure, and this info was on Batronix' website already on October 13, 2012, long before HW 2 came along. Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20121013114141/http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20121013114141/http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 31, 2013, 02:21:07 pm
Batronix haven't even updated their website yet to mention anything a bout DS2000A series scopes.

Maybe so, I don't know. Here is however the same picture with text "lower over shoot" under DS2000A web page:
http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 31, 2013, 02:27:06 pm
Batronix haven't even updated their website yet to mention anything a bout DS2000A series scopes.
Maybe so, I don't know. Here is however the same picture with text "lower over shoot" under DS2000A web page:
http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/)
You probably missed my post above which proves it was already on Batronix on October 13, 2012, long before HW 2 came along. So this screenshot was made on HW 1 and comparing to older scope series. It has nothing to do with HW 2 vs. HW 1.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2013, 02:31:29 pm
This got me thinking about when Steve Jobs said people were holding it wrong when customers complained about poor iPhone antenna signal.  >:D :-BROKE

Well, thank you for the complement - but I'm not sure I should be classified as the Steve Jobs of Rigol. I mean, I am on the phone everyday telling Rigol designers, engineers and programmers what to do, but still.... perhaps the Steve Wozniak of Rigol would be more appropriate?  :D

I do like your idea for mugs and t-shirts though. Perhaps it can be a dual line: 'You're holding it wrong' for certain people; and 'Wahhh, I can't get it to work' for others?   >:D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 31, 2013, 02:34:45 pm
You probably missed my post above which proves it was already on Batronix on October 13, 2012, long before HW 2 came along. So this screenshot was made on HW 1 and comparing to older scope series. It has nothing to do with HW 2 vs. HW 1.

Ok, so it is old picture and they advertise on web page http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/) that over shoot of DS200A is lower but don't say lower of what. ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on December 31, 2013, 02:39:34 pm
Ok, so it is old picture and they advertise on web page http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/) that over shoot of DS200A is lower but don't say lower of what. ;D
Yeah it's very easy to make random comparison claims when you don't tell what you're actually comparing against. Noone will ever be able to hold it against you.
That's what happens when marketing people and not engineers are in charge of the message.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2013, 03:28:16 pm
Show off!    ;D  :clap:

I'm sure there's some young hotshot out there who can do it in 12.3 seconds ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 31, 2013, 09:06:54 pm
it's really odd ...
I entered the test-serials using the DSO editor and the rotary enc.
no problems with that
but if I try to select let's say the probe correction, I might end up with the next or prev value (beside a laggy response during selection)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2013, 09:27:58 pm
it's really odd ...
I entered the test-serials using the DSO editor and the rotary enc.
no problems with that
but if I try to select let's say the probe correction, I might end up with the next or prev value (beside a laggy response during selection)

It's true that moving the selection bar in a menu is more unresponsive than in the editor - it requires slower movements to prevent overshoot (due to the lag) - perhaps the menus are dealt with in a different way than the screen overlay by the FW? Also, moving the selection bar left or right, IMO, seems slightly more natural than up and down.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2014, 04:23:26 pm
Happy New Year, everyone!  :)

Here's what the festivities looked could have looked like in my neck of the woods when 2014 arrived (if we were all in the same time zone, weather was clear, and fireworks were more powerful):

Ahh... good ole editing  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on January 01, 2014, 04:33:21 pm
Happy New Year, everyone!  :)

Here's what the festivities looked like in my neck of the woods when 2014 arrived:
Happy New Year. But that's not what Europe looked like. Kind of obvious when you think of it, otherwise why would some countries be red, others yellow and others again blue?
Besides if it's supposed to look like fireworks at midnight, the UK would not be lit up at the same time as mainland Europe, as they celebrate New Year an hour later and Moscow i 3 hours ahead of CET.
And what's up with all the blue light in the middle of the sea between the UK and Norway/Denmark?

http://www.daily-headlines.net/2013/01/spectacular-images-of-europe-in.html (http://www.daily-headlines.net/2013/01/spectacular-images-of-europe-in.html)
Quote
Although this photo spread Internet expanses as "spectacular photos Europe at midnight 1 January 2013. Recorded by NASA," we'll have to disappoint you, though someone just played well in Photoshop.

Maybe one day New Year's footage from space really look like that - when NASA made ??an even better photo equipment, when the fireworks on the ground look like a nuclear war, and when all countries regardless of the time zone they decide to welcome the New Year at the same time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on January 01, 2014, 04:36:00 pm
haha, yes that's fake
(also the other europe at night pics flying around)

but nevertheless, happy new 2014 :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2014, 04:45:19 pm
Besides if it's supposed to look like fireworks at midnight, the UK would not be lit up at the same time as mainland Europe, as they celebrate New Year an hour later and Moscow i 3 hours ahead of CET.

No kidding... I assumed it was composited or Photoshopped.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2014, 04:57:14 pm
Happy New Year to All!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2014, 11:35:10 pm
I wish the Navigation Knob would also do high speed horizontal position in normal mode the same way it does in delayed sweep and record playback modes.
I also wish that the inner knob had a finger indent so that it could be spun continuously (like many professional video playback controllers).  The way it is designed now, I find it to be almost useless and, instead, use the small horizontal position knob which has the same function but can be spun faster and with more control.

JDubU: I missed this comment from you when you originally posted it, but I thought it brings up a good point which I agree with: the Navigation knob is underutilized when it isn't functioning for moving through frames, moving the delayed sweep window, or as a fast variable selector: it should automatically be working as a fast horizontal position knob.

Also, while I don't care as much as you do about whether the inner knob has a finger indent, I do think it's a bad UI choice to have the inner knob incrementing at exactly the same rate as the horizontal position knob when in Delayed Sweep. You've got one knob (Navigation) which increments very fast - and then two knobs which increment very slowly at the same rate (although you can spin the h.pos. knob faster if you want). The inner knob should increment at a medium rate - making it much easier to hone in on the desired position.

Perhaps I'll pass these suggestions along in the hopes Rigol will implement them in the next firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on January 02, 2014, 04:46:01 am
... You've got one knob (Navigation) which increments very fast - and then two knobs which increment very slowly at the same rate (although you can spin the h.pos. knob faster if you want). The inner knob should increment at a medium rate - making it much easier to hone in on the desired position.

Perhaps I'll pass these suggestions along in the hopes Rigol will implement them in the next firmware.

Sounds good!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 03, 2014, 07:45:51 pm

So far testing, i think it is better as Rigol makes two different FW for the DS2000,
one version for the non A and a second version for the A model.

I think it slows down and makes FW complicated , now the FW has everytime
make decisions and have to think , ohh this is a A or a non A.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 03, 2014, 07:50:25 pm
I think it slows down and makes FW complicated , now the FW has everytime
make decisions and have to think , ohh this is a A or a non A.

Really? I haven't noticed any slowing down - the newer FW seems better to me. Can you give a specific example to demonstrate?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Giorg on January 06, 2014, 10:43:18 am
Today I've updated directly from SW 00.01.01.00.02, HW 1.0.2.0.0 with all options installed and 200 bw to latest FW version. I've also cleared the memory as suggested. Any warning about this procedure? Anything else I should know?

Scope freezed while changing time division today, but maybe it's not related to the update.

thank you!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 06, 2014, 09:52:19 pm
While working on the new version of RUU, I've discovered two (relatively minor) firmware bugs involving SCPI commands (and added to the list on page 1). One of them is old (I noticed it already back in v.01.00.00.03) - one of them is new in this version. When reading display memory from the DSO, you should always get back 1400 bytes (unless you STOP the DSO and zoom out).

1) OLD BUG: When in HighRes mode and reading display memory from the DSO, if the time base is <= 20us, the DSO returns 1398 bytes instead of 1400.

2) NEW BUG: When the DSO is STOPped and reading display memory from the DSO while zooming out (i.e. make the time base bigger so the waveform is shrinking on the screen), the DSO returns (correctly) a decreasing number of display memory bytes until < 6, and then it incorrectly starts sending 1400 bytes every time (which is a nonsense waveform) instead of 2 (a single line).

You can see bug #2 in action (non-destructively) if you run RUU, then RUN and STOP the DSO with a small sample length. Then start zooming out. When the waveform reaches a single vertical line on the DSO screen, RUU will start displaying a wild, nonsense waveform - which is some part of overwritten display memory which the DSO is sending (incorrectly) to RUU. Kind of funny...  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 07, 2014, 02:16:09 pm
Traces when using type as dots or vectors look quite different. Why?
Time base 1 ns, Ch1 and Ch2 both on, HW 1, BW 300 MHz.
Carrington asked me to test this on my non-A hardware version 2 scope, with latest software and all upgrades and I get the following. Not sure if I missed a setting but it looks ok:

(Had no input for CH2 at hand)

Oops... looks the same at 1nS...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 07, 2014, 02:26:33 pm
And 1nS  :palm:

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on January 07, 2014, 03:00:42 pm
I don't know if it is a bug or an inconsistency, but in ds2302 mode if you turn the unit off and on and go to change the bandwidth for a channel, it will not open a menu and let you use the spin knob to select it.  It will just toggle the setting to the next one.  If you restore a saved configuration or default settings, you will get the menu.  If you power cycle again, the menu will no longer work and you will be toggling through the options until you restore settings/defaults again.  This is on both HW 1.0.1.0.0 and HW 1.0.2.0.2.  You always get the menu as expected in ds2202 mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 07, 2014, 03:32:37 pm
Bandwidth DS2302 HW 2, signal generator on 1 volt, 10 Mhz steps:

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 03:49:20 pm
Bandwidth DS2302 HW 2, signal generator on 1 volt, 10 Mhz steps:
Awesome...  :o
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on January 07, 2014, 03:51:08 pm
Bandwidth DS2302 HW 2, signal generator on 1 volt, 10 Mhz steps:

Can you repeat that in DS2202 mode with HW 2?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on January 07, 2014, 04:25:28 pm
And 1nS  :palm:

Something looks wrong in your screen captures: (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg362905/#msg362905 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg362905/#msg362905)).

How are you getting a continuous trace of closely spaced dots?  You should be seeing only one dot per horizontal division (1 ns/div, 1G samples/second).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 07, 2014, 04:35:25 pm
How are you getting a continuous trace of closely spaced dots?  You should be seeing only one dot per horizontal division (1 ns/div, 1G samples/second).
Looks like hi res acquisition
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on January 07, 2014, 04:41:50 pm
How are you getting a continuous trace of closely spaced dots?  You should be seeing only one dot per horizontal division (1 ns/div, 1G samples/second).
Looks like hi res acquisition

Ah yes!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on January 07, 2014, 04:42:52 pm
Does anyone have a good description for how the hi resolution mode works?  The manual didn't really help me understand it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 04:46:35 pm
Does anyone have a good description for how the hi resolution mode works?  The manual didn't really help me understand it.
Please search on the forum, because it has already been discussed in detail.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 07, 2014, 04:56:38 pm

Looks like hi res acquisition

Ah yes!

Yes it is in hi res because the original from EV was also in hi res.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 04:59:01 pm
Yes it is in hi res because the original from EV was also in hi res.
Please can you repeat the same test for 1ns/div, but not in stop mode and/or hi res.
Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2014, 06:14:41 pm
Does anyone have a good description for how the hi resolution mode works?  The manual didn't really help me understand it.

Yes it is in hi res because the original from EV was also in hi res.

At those time bases in HighRes, the DSO is just doing sin(x)/x interpolation and filling in the display memory with points instead of vectors. It does absolutely nothing that Normal mode and sin(x)/x don't do - except display the trace dotted.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2014, 06:31:03 pm
Bandwidth DS2302 HW 2, signal generator on 1 volt, 10 Mhz steps:

Sorry, but I'm not sure I buy this BW chart.

If the filter is really only ~-5.5dB down at 500MHz, I believe the DSO will run into problems with sin(x)/x interpolation - which is highly susceptible to errors if the original signal contains frequencies higher than the Nyquist frequency. With 2 channels turned on and a 1GSa/s rate, the Nyquist frequency is 500MHz.

According to previous BW charts posted, the original DS2202 was ~-16dB down at 500MHz. Having a slower roll-off and a higher passband is NOT a good thing if the rest of the hardware doesn't support it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 07, 2014, 06:35:15 pm
Sorry, but I'm not sure I buy this BW chart.

Atttached Excel sheet with the measurements.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 07, 2014, 06:40:39 pm
Hmm, this is indeed a bit  :-BROKE
Just turning on the grounded channel 2 kills the channel 1 waveform:

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2014, 06:42:17 pm
Sorry, but I'm not sure I buy this BW chart.

Atttached Excel sheet with the measurements.

Well, I believe you made measurements and a chart - but that doesn't mean it's accurate.  ;)   Hell, you had HighRes mode on - which is an averaging technique, and thus a filter - which would normally be the last thing you should do if trying to accurately measure bandwidth.

But, IMO, if your measurements ARE correct, I'd say Rigol made a mistake in redesigning their filter - and it makes me feel better about owning a HW v.1 ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 07, 2014, 06:45:29 pm
I just had hi res on for the other screenshots because I figured that EV had it on too (too many dots) in his original posting and I switched it off after taking the shots. Not sure what is going on, going to test my sig gen now  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 07, 2014, 06:48:36 pm
I got explanation to this from TEK Forum:

"When at 400ns/div or faster horizontal time base, the sample rate is maxed at 2.5GS/s. To overcome the max sample rate, the instrument goes into real time interpolate mode and mathematically adds points depending upon the horizontal time/div setting. What you are seeing are the interpolated points, not actual samples."

My old TEK TDS3032 has 2.5 GS/s and 5 samples per division with 1 ns time base. It is so regardlss whether both or only one channel is on.

But that doesn't make sense mathematically. If 2.5GSa/s is the maximum rate, 400ps is the smallest sample period. That would be 2.5 samples per div @ 1ns. 5 samples per div would require a 5GSa/s rate (200ps sample).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2014, 06:52:26 pm
I just had hi res on for the other screenshots because I figured that EV had it on too (too many dots) in his original posting and I switched it off after taking the shots.
Ok, sorry, my mistake. :)

Again, I have no problem if the -3dB BW is up around 350MHz - but the rolloff according to your chart is so slow I think problems could arise with signal reconstruction.

Compare it to the rolloffs in the two bandwidth charts posted on this page (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/1980/).


"...and mathematically adds points depending upon the horizontal time/div setting. What you are seeing are the interpolated points, not actual samples."
Which is basically what the Rigol is doing in HighRes mode below a certain time base.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 06:54:55 pm
I got explanation to this from TEK Forum:

"When at 400ns/div or faster horizontal time base, the sample rate is maxed at 2.5GS/s. To overcome the max sample rate, the instrument goes into real time interpolate mode and mathematically adds points depending upon the horizontal time/div setting. What you are seeing are the interpolated points, not actual samples."

A few days ago someone mention something about a Tek oscilloscope that in dots mode showed more samples than should be.
It's not magic, are interpolated (maths).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg355318/#msg355318 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg355318/#msg355318)


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 06:55:26 pm
But, IMO, if your measurements ARE correct, I'd say Rigol made a mistake in redesigning their filter - and it makes me feel better about owning a HW v.1 ;D
DS2072, DS2072 (HW2.0) and DS2072A have all different input stages.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 06:58:05 pm
And no idea why this happens:  :-//

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=75292;image)

@ PA0PBZ: Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2014, 06:58:22 pm
DS2072, DS2072 (HW2.0) and DS2072A have all different input stages.

Yes, clearly I know that. But if PA0PBZ's chart is accurate, IMO it indicates a poorly designed filter for the sampling hardware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on January 07, 2014, 07:03:23 pm
And no idea why this happens:  :-//
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=75292;image)

What does it look like when switched to "Dots" mode?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 07:04:45 pm
Yes, clearly I know that. But if PA0PBZ's chart is accurate, IMO it indicates a poorly designed filter for the sampling hardware.
Well, who knows, it may be an error in the measurement.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 07, 2014, 07:24:28 pm
And no idea why this happens:  :-//
I'm unable to infer from that screenshot what is surprising to you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 07:45:15 pm
I'm unable to infer from that screenshot what is surprising to you.
Why do you think that there is nothing unusual?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 07, 2014, 08:20:14 pm
What does it look like when switched to "Dots" mode?

Dots mode is ok.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 07, 2014, 08:38:13 pm
There are too few sample points for Sin(x)/X interpolation.

And no idea why this happens:  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 07, 2014, 08:42:15 pm
Hi All
  To Help show how DS2000 makes vectors out of sample points. I have constructed waveform files that have a low number of sample points. The sample points are calculated perfect sin values. I have chosen repeating patterns. I show 6, 4 and 2.5  sample points per cycle and at 1GSa/s.  You can see how the DSO interpolates the sin in the vector displays

These are stopped displays,  In run mode the varying trigger scanning causes the sampling to collect a series of sample along the sin display and if not a sin wave(step function) the DSO will create a sin wave overshoot.

Note : At 2.5 samples/ cycle the frequency will be accurate but Vpp is NOT.
   AS EV says very few points
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on January 07, 2014, 10:31:32 pm
I got my ds2202a-s today, just started it and playing around, I don't know how to make screendump yet, so I used my cellphone.

1) The model number displayed in system info is DS2202A, not DS2202A-S..

2) I see that I have the old firmware, 00.02.00.00.04 (was there a list of what is changed between this and 00.02.01.00.03?, I notice that some menutabs stays after you turn off things)

3) My serial starts with DS2E15..  I thought the A series had D, not E?, is this because this have signalgen?, or is this another way to differ models? (I saw there was written some about that the codegen does not work yet, that there probably are more keys to it, but maybe it's E in higher models now?)

4) my hardware version is 1.2.2.0.2, but other A models have 1.0.2.0.2?, is that also due to the Signalgen? (I hope the signalgen can be controlled by RUU, the menu system looks hard to use)

The rest of the numbers looks same

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on January 07, 2014, 11:09:53 pm
I got my ds2202a-s today,
Where did you buy a S2000A-S version? Didn't think they were released yet. Not listed at online distributors like http://rigolna.com (http://rigolna.com) and http://batronix.com (http://batronix.com)
Edit: they are listed at http://www.tequipment.net/rigol/series_ds2000a-series/ (http://www.tequipment.net/rigol/series_ds2000a-series/) but without prices.

What's the price difference between the S and non-S models?

4) my hardware version is 1.2.2.0.2, but other A models have 1.0.2.0.2?, is that also due to the Signalgen?
Most likely.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on January 07, 2014, 11:28:08 pm
Where did you buy a S2000A-S version? Didn't think they were released yet. Not listed at online distributors
It's available in Russia: DS2072A-S (http://irit.ru/products/index.php?SECTION_ID=915&ELEMENT_ID=395821), DS2302A-S (http://irit.ru/products/index.php?SECTION_ID=915&ELEMENT_ID=395833).

What's the price difference between the S and non-S models?
DS2072A ~ 766€
DS2072A-S ~ 1088€
DS2302A ~ 2022€
DS2302A-S ~ 2344€
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 07, 2014, 11:36:06 pm
So is this:

These are stopped displays,  In run mode the varying trigger scanning causes the sampling to collect a series of sample along the sin display and if not a sin wave(step function) the DSO will create a sin wave overshoot.

Note : At 2.5 samples/ cycle the frequency will be accurate but Vpp is NOT.
   AS EV says very few points

+

I think it is due to the overlap of many waveforms slightly different each time, and the wave intensity processing. Like the persistence effect.



Note: Test now with average acquisition mode and only 2 averages.

@ marmad: You agree?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 07, 2014, 11:39:36 pm
I'm unable to infer from that screenshot what is surprising to you.
Why do you think that there is nothing unusual?
Ah, I managed to miss PA0PBZ's post that you were quoting, and didn't realize you were quoting something, so I was missing the context!

That looks to be sin(x)/x interpolation (high res + persistence?) You're halving the number of sample points in the waveform by enabling channel 2, going down to one sample per division. Small changes in the sample points produce much bigger changes in the interpolated waveform because the samples are so far apart. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on January 07, 2014, 11:55:12 pm
I got my ds2202a-s today,
Where did you buy a S2000A-S version? Didn't think they were released yet. Not listed at online distributors like http://rigolna.com (http://rigolna.com) and http://batronix.com (http://batronix.com)
Edit: they are listed at http://www.tequipment.net/rigol/series_ds2000a-series/ (http://www.tequipment.net/rigol/series_ds2000a-series/) but without prices.

What's the price difference between the S and non-S models?

4) my hardware version is 1.2.2.0.2, but other A models have 1.0.2.0.2?, is that also due to the Signalgen?
Most likely.

Venotek.no in Norway sold it, I ordered it before christmas, and it was supposed to be like 4-5 weeks waiting, just like that, it arrived today.
Prices are similar to what fagear wrote, Venotek have prices very similar to batronix etc, so better to buy locally instead of importing.
Title: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: Pinkus on January 08, 2014, 02:31:24 pm
I need some help with a DS2072 -> 2302, HW1; latest firmware

I want to use the advanced math operation and enter a formula.
Everything seems to work but not the logarithm function.
I am not able to use Log(CH1) or anything else using "log()" (even "log(10)" is not working).

I can enter it in the formula line of course but the "Apply" button stays grayed out as long as "log(...)" appears in the formula. The status of the button usually changes from grey to white when a correct formular has been entered.  Any idea?
Thanks

Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: marmad on January 08, 2014, 02:58:20 pm
I can enter it in the formula line of course but the "Apply" button stays grayed out as long as "log(...)" appears in the formula. The status of the button usually changes from grey to white when a correct formular has been entered.  Any idea?

Have you downgraded and tried the v.01.01.00.02 FW? It's likely a bug - and so would be good to know the extent of it.
Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: Pinkus on January 08, 2014, 03:08:37 pm
I can enter it in the formula line of course but the "Apply" button stays grayed out as long as "log(...)" appears in the formula. The status of the button usually changes from grey to white when a correct formular has been entered.  Any idea?

Have you downgraded and tried the v.01.01.00.02 FW? It's likely a bug - and so would be good to know the extent of it.
not yet. Maybe one with v.01.01.00.02 on his system can try it out (Math -> Operate -> Advanced ->Expressions)?
Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: marmad on January 08, 2014, 03:13:49 pm
not yet. Maybe one with v.01.01.00.02 on his system can try it out (Math -> Operate -> Advanced ->Expressions)?

I just tried sending it an expression using Log() via SCPI - but it also didn't work (I'm also on FW v.2). I'm just wondering if it has to do with the formatting of the expression when using Log(), but every variation I've tried hasn't worked.

EDIT: Every time I send it an expression with 'Log(' in it, I get "Input is invalid" - so I'm guessing it's a bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on January 08, 2014, 03:38:27 pm
ohh I noticed it too while playing around with the new DSO
but I thought it's me who's doing something wrong so I didn't bother with that any longer XD
Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: Fagear on January 08, 2014, 07:10:16 pm
Everything seems to work but not the logarithm function.
I am not able to use Log(CH1) or anything else using "log()" (even "log(10)" is not working).

I can enter it in the formula line of course but the "Apply" button stays grayed out as long as "log(...)" appears in the formula.
Tested it on my DS2072A and yes, "Apply" grayed out while log() is in formula even if syntax is correct.

Device: DS2072A converted to DS2202A, HW: 2.0 (1.0.2.0.2), SW: 00.02.01.00.03.
Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: marmad on January 08, 2014, 07:24:04 pm
Everything seems to work but not the logarithm function.
I am not able to use Log(CH1) or anything else using "log()" (even "log(10)" is not working).

I can enter it in the formula line of course but the "Apply" button stays grayed out as long as "log(...)" appears in the formula.
Tested it on my DS2072A and yes, "Apply" grayed out while log() is in formula even if syntax is correct.

Device: DS2072A converted to DS2202A, HW: 2.0 (1.0.2.0.2), SW: 00.02.01.00.03.

Thanks for your enthusiasm - but you're running the same FW as us, which has already been tested.  :) We're looking to see if anyone with v.01 FW can test it.
Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: Fagear on January 08, 2014, 10:07:33 pm
Thanks for your enthusiasm - but you're running the same FW as us, which has already been tested.  :) We're looking to see if anyone with v.01 FW can test it.
Have downgraded to 00.01.01.00.02 again.
Bug with Log() dissapeared.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=75488;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=75490;image)
Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: marmad on January 08, 2014, 10:09:33 pm
Have downgraded to 00.01.01.00.02 again.
Bug with Log() dissapeared.

Great! Thanks for testing that - I'll send the bug onto Rigol (via Drieg)!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on January 08, 2014, 10:11:28 pm
While you are reporting bugs, not that I can say this is a bug, when you first power on the unit all lights light up except the CH1 for some reason.  If they are come on as a function test at power up, shouldn't CH1 also light too?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on January 08, 2014, 10:25:57 pm
While you are reporting bugs, not that I can say this is a bug, when you first power on the unit all lights light up except the CH1 for some reason.  If they are come on as a function test at power up, shouldn't CH1 also light too?
It flashes for a second but then switches off. I agree - this is strange.

I also have bug with USB stick detection (on both FW 01 and 02).
After power on if I plug USB stick in - oscilloscope doesn't recognise it. In normal mode and when updating FW through Power->Help sequence. I have to unplug USB stick and replug it again and now USB stick is available (message appears on the screen or FW update starts).
Tried two different USB sticks: one old 256 Mb and one new 8 Gb.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 08, 2014, 10:51:27 pm
Please does DS2000 or DS2000A with latest firmware have cursors in XY mode? According to the latest manual, they are now implemented.  :-+ :-+ http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/document/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/document/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 08, 2014, 10:52:11 pm
While you are reporting bugs, not that I can say this is a bug, when you first power on the unit all lights light up except the CH1 for some reason.  If they are come on as a function test at power up, shouldn't CH1 also light too?
On My DSO FW 02.01.00.03    HW 1.0.1.0.0
All lights flash once,
and 'RUN/STOP' flashes orange
Now if
         'Help' is pushed the "RUN/STOP" goes Off and the 'SINGLE' stays on
and if
         'F6' left is pushed  the "RUN/STOP" goes Green and the  'SINGLE' goes Off    Immediately
I can see with the Help load FW function;
the need to have 'CH1' go off in order to show when a new Firmware is loading ,
by flashing 'CH1'
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 08, 2014, 10:52:44 pm
Please does DS2000 or DS2000A with latest firmware have cursors in XY mode?

Yes, already reported earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 09, 2014, 12:44:36 am
That looks like tracking mode. I meant a feature like this. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/my-new-toy-)-agilent-dsox2002a-sex-on-a-stick!/?action=dlattach;attach=44101;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2014, 01:00:11 am
That looks like tracking mode. I meant a feature like this. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/my-new-toy-)-agilent-dsox2002a-sex-on-a-stick!/?action=dlattach;attach=44101;image)
Once again, yes, the DS2000 has it (even though Teneyes misunderstood you). Please search the thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg349961/#msg349961) before posting questions that might be easy to find out on your own.

Either use the thread specific search bottom at the bottom of the page, or Google something like "inurl:www.eevblog.com +DS2000 +xy +cursors" (the answer is in the 3rd result).
Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: Pinkus on January 09, 2014, 11:06:21 am
Have downgraded to 00.01.01.00.02 again.
Bug with Log() dissapeared.
Thank you. I already passed this bug to Rigol and they verified it and said it will be passed to the engineers. However: Marmad you should still pass it over to Drieg as it will not be a mistake to report it through two different channels = chances for a correction are higher.
Title: Re: Advanced math operation: Log() not working?
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2014, 11:21:14 am
Have downgraded to 00.01.01.00.02 again.
Bug with Log() dissapeared.
Thank you. I already passed this bug to Rigol and they verified it and said it will be passed to the engineers. However: Marmad you should still pass it over to Drieg as it will not be a mistake to report it through two different channels = chances for a correction are higher.

Already done (and added to the list on page 1).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2014, 07:54:58 pm
Some one else mentioned this "bug" before, but just to elaborate (and it's been added to the bug list on page 1):

All SCPI commands related to CAN triggering and decoding appear to be missing in the latest FW. A bigger PITA is the fact that the mode is not correctly reported for TRIGGER, although it is for DECODE. That means if BUS1 is set to CAN, and you query:
:BUS1:MODE?
...you get:
CAN
...even though you can't change any of the parameters of the BUS.

But if TRIGGER is set to CAN, and you query:
:TRIG:MODE?
...the VISA connection times out, and any software (like RUU) will believe the DSO has been disconnected (since :TRIG:MODE? should ALWAYS return a value).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tequipment on January 10, 2014, 04:59:02 am
if you email us we can send you pricing

salesteam@tequipment.net

Or we can just post it tomorrow if someone sends me an email reminder.
Thanks
Evan
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2014, 02:27:25 pm
Rigol's changelog from last two DS2000 firmware releases. I am not responsible for any Chinglish ;)

1. E: Enhancements; C: Cancellation; M: Modification

Version:00.02.01.00.03   Date:2013-11-04
1.  (E) Modify the option license.
2.  (E) Added the AUTO disable command.
3.  (M) Fixed the data error.
4.  (M) Fixed offset error when the amplitude of source is over 1.6v.
5.  (M) Fixed the invalid measure issue when open delay measure.
6.  (E) Added multi-language(German/Korean/Poland/Japan etc).
7.  (M) Fixed the error trigger status when it is Pass/Fail mode and normal trigger.
8.  (E) Hold the bandwidth limit after auto setting.
9.  (M) Fixed the start data when read the data form scope.
10.(E) Optimized the AUTO trigger mode in every horizontal scale.
11.(M) Fixed the FFT center freq changing when change the horizontal scale.
12.(M) Fixed the band rate of RS232 error when it is 57600bps.


Version:00.01.01.00.02   Date:2013-06-06
1. (M) Optimized  the .csv file accuracy  in DC coupling.
2. (M) Fixed the UART decoding error when baud rate is 10400.
3. (M) Fixed the crash when math advanced is “CH1==CH2”.
4. (M) Fixed storage and recall waveform error in ROLL mode.
5. (M) Fixed trigger delay in 500uV/div.
6. (E) Added file name when printing screen.
7. (M) Fixed measure error when delete some measure items.
8. (M) Fixed trial license lost when do self-calibration.
9. (E) Optimized source setting for DS2000-S series.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on January 13, 2014, 07:23:28 pm
Which usb sticks are people finding that works on the scope?
In the manual of my ds2202a-s, it's written that one should not use bigger than 8GB, and that small starts to get more and more difficult to get now, and since some people have noted that not all do work, I was wondering.
I guess normal ones like Kingston and SanDisk should work fine?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 13, 2014, 08:58:04 pm
I tried a few nonames ranging from 1 to 8 GB and even a branded 32GB one and they all worked. Not to say that anything will work but it does not seem to be very critical.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Altemir on January 13, 2014, 09:16:17 pm
Which usb sticks are people finding that works on the scope? [...]
I tried to use ~18 types of USB flash disks (Sandisk, Transcend, Kingston, Toshiba, card-readers and many others...), but only 2(!) types worked very well in bootloader mode with DG4000: Chinese noname 2GB (red) and 512MB (black)! :D
I used Red and black drives on Rigol DG4162, DG4062 (5 different), DS2012, MSO4024 in bootloader mode. I tried to use 4 types of disks with DS2000's bootloader, worked only noname :) For image storage all types of drives work very well, except Kingston DT-R500 (32GB) on MSO4024.
Flashdrive info from red USB-disk:

Code: [Select]
Protocal Version: USB 2.00
Current Speed: High Speed
Max Current: 100mA

USB Device ID: VID = 1221 PID = 3234
Serial Number: 2010042716480359

Device Vendor: USB2.0
Device Name: Flash Disk
Device Revision: 0000

Manufacturer: USB2.0
Product Model: Flash Disk
Product Revision: 3.00

Chip Vendor: Micov
Chip Part-Number: 3.00

Physical Disk Capacity: 1939865600 Bytes
Windows Disk Capacity:  1939603456 Bytes
Internal Tags: AA2E-QAHS
File System: FAT
ContMeas ID: 3CC6-01-00

Note, that Chip Vendor is Micov. VID/PID - the most common for Chinese disks. Red drive I got on some conference, and black drive I got with TI Cortex-M4 kit. Note, that boxes of both drives is identical.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2014, 10:07:22 pm
I found what appears to be another bug in the current FW - although it's not serious.  I can't say if it exists in pre-v.2 FW because I never really used this Trigger before - although I did TRY to use it once or twice - and found it very unresponsive (which would likely be because of the below-mentioned bug) - so I have a feeling it's been around for many FW versions.

I discovered it while working on the extended screen info for Triggers for the upcoming RUU 3.0: it seems as if Rigol got the parameter names backwards on the Windows Trigger. Look at the image - it's supposed to be a Trigger on exiting the Window with a rising edge. In fact, it's entering the Window with a falling edge. Both Enter/Exit and Rising/Falling appear to be operating in reverse.


EDIT: As pointed out by Wim below - not a bug, but a misunderstanding of the terms by me - although I think Rigol could name the trigger and it's settings in a better, more intuitive way.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=76592)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 14, 2014, 04:59:06 pm
Well i dont have that,  my DS2000 works oke in windows trigger

What was the position of your position button ?

See my picture, it starts at going up, dotted line  and exits on trigger position steady line ,
( not on the steady line before trigger point, but on trigger point )

If you put the position on Time, you get the uprising positions
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mrubbert on January 14, 2014, 05:24:26 pm
Option DSEZ working fine with: DS2072 HW101 FW213 (override old DSAZ).

Looking foreward to work with automotive CAN bus now, even if it obvius if one of the boxes dosent respond, it might help to go deeper and repair the disturbed network or the relevant box it self.

Many thanks !    :-+
Also start to like the option knob now, it is understanding my touch now  :)

( the links in 1 page dosent lead you to FW213 )
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mrubbert on January 14, 2014, 06:23:07 pm
Some one else mentioned this "bug" before, but just to elaborate (and it's been added to the bug list on page 1):

All SCPI commands related to CAN triggering and decoding appear to be missing in the latest FW. A bigger PITA is the fact that the mode is not correctly reported for TRIGGER, although it is for DECODE. That means if BUS1 is set to CAN, and you query:
:BUS1:MODE?
...you get:
CAN
...even though you can't change any of the parameters of the BUS.

But if TRIGGER is set to CAN, and you query:
:TRIG:MODE?
...the VISA connection times out, and any software (like RUU) will believe the DSO has been disconnected (since :TRIG:MODE? should ALWAYS return a value).

Ohhh, sucking rigol if its only for HW1 people.
Have to try normal CAN bus use in garage now,
0 degre celsius outside with no heater at moment, But thats just in specifications on this scope. Humidity 85 (max 95 in spec).   :bullshit:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 14, 2014, 06:38:58 pm
See my picture, it starts at going up, dotted line  and exits on trigger position steady line ,
( not on the steady line before trigger point, but on trigger point )
The key is what's happening at the trigger position, not what happened before it.

I went and had a read of the manual.  Page 5-16. As you have it configured:
"trigger on the rising edge of the input signal when the voltage level is greater than the preset high trigger level"
+
"trigger when the input signal exits the specified trigger level range"

However, your screenshot shows the waveform with a FALLING edge ENTERING the specified trigger level range at the trigger position.  So you have confirmed the bug Marmad found.

However, the docs are a little confusing.  Consider "rising" + "enter": you can't be rising, greater than the high trigger level, AND entering the level range.  So maybe the documentation should be taken with a grain of salt...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 14, 2014, 06:49:30 pm

I dont agree.., read the manual ,

here an other picture , now on position time, and here is what ypou want..
on the rising edge..

On this picture it is not a bug...!!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 07:07:27 pm
What was the position of your position button ?

All the information is in the bottom line of my image.

Quote
See my picture, it starts at going up, dotted line  and exits on trigger position steady line ,
( not on the steady line before trigger point, but on trigger point )

Sorry, your image confirms the problem - it is NOT triggering on Exiting the Window - it's triggering on Entering. Rigol has definitely made a mistake, either with their English translations - or their understanding of what those terms mean.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 14, 2014, 07:14:37 pm
What was the position of your position button ?

All the information is in the bottom line of my image.

Quote
See my picture, it starts at going up, dotted line  and exits on trigger position steady line ,
( not on the steady line before trigger point, but on trigger point )

Sorry, your image confirms the problem - it is NOT triggering on Exiting the Window - it's triggering on Entering. Rigol has definitely made a mistake, either with their English translations - or their understanding of what those terms mean.

It is easy to  proof that you are wrong.., change the T1 cursor, and you will see that it changes the trigger point
and that is the exit.

And why is it in time mode correct...?? See my second post and image


Even in enter mode it works correct...

It is all correct
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 07:26:36 pm
It is easy to  proof that you are wrong.., change the T1 cursor, and you will see that it changes the trigger point
and that is the exit.
Sorry, it's easy to prove you are wrong. ;D  Here is an image of Windows Trigger set to trigger on EITHER edge when ENTERING the WINDOW. In fact, it's triggering on either edge when EXITING the WINDOW.

ENTER / EXIT / WINDOW: These terms are very easy to define and understand in English - and this trigger is NOT following the correct definitions of these terms.


It's working correctly as long as you consider the screen as 2 separated windows (with a dead-band in-between) - which makes sense, I suppose, given that it's called 'Windows' - but not super-intuitive, IMO.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=76677)



EDIT: As GalaxyRise noted: the manual contradicts itself - but that IS the problem/bug. The terms/definitions Rigol has chosen do NOT work the way you would expect.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 14, 2014, 07:32:57 pm
I still dont agree, i still think it works correct.

But how to tell, it is in the definition of enter or exit the trigger level.

I try: the sine wave goes to the first T2 rise, the the trigger knows it has to wait for the signal to exit
the window T1 level, the first hit of T1 is the enter mode, the second hit is the exit.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 07:40:09 pm
I still dont agree, i still think it works correct.

But how to tell, it is in the definition of enter or exit the trigger level.

I try: the sine wave goes to the first T2, the the trigger knows it has to wait for the signal to exit
the window T1 level, the first hit of T1 is the enter mode, the second hit is the exit.

But the trigger is called WINDOW - meaning an area of the screen defined by two opposing sides. If they meant just 2X Level Triggers, they should have named it that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 14, 2014, 07:49:58 pm
It is called window, thats is correct but, it is not only in between, but also NOT inside is a window.

How should they differ enter and exit then..? as T2 is the first action to check.
then T1 is the second if it passes.., is this enter or exit..?

You have rise, - down, and exit - enter, that gives four possibilities.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 07:54:39 pm
I still dont agree, i still think it works correct.

But how to tell, it is in the definition of enter or exit the trigger level.

Following your (and Rigol's) definition, I get EXACTLY the same outcome with a Windows ENTER trigger and a Slope > trigger - which is really stupid and not at all intuitive.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 08:02:21 pm
It is called window, thats is correct but, it is not only in between, but also NOT inside is a window.

I understand that - but then I think they choose the wrong name for the Trigger - at least as far as English is concerned. If I'm defining something with 4 sides (two screen edges and the two levels), I think of that as the Window. Perhaps the name Levels would be more appropriate - and a better description of what's happening.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 14, 2014, 08:04:29 pm
About your post before: Using the same sine wave, gives the same outcome,

but try a complex signal, a dual tone or something with different hights in it,
then you see the advantage of windowing.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 14, 2014, 08:07:10 pm
It is called window, thats is correct but, it is not only in between, but also NOT inside is a window.

I understand that - but then I think they choose the wrong name for the Trigger - at least as far as English is concerned. If I'm defining something with 4 sides (two screen edges and the two levels), I think of that as the Window. Perhaps the name Levels would be more appropriate - and a better description of what's happening.

yes i do agree with that, entering a level should be more understanding, or crossing a level.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 08:18:14 pm
About your post before: Using the same sine wave, gives the same outcome,

but try a complex signal, a dual tone or something with different hights in it,
then you see the advantage of windowing.

But my problem isn't with the trigger - just with the, IMO, confusing/misleading terms used to describe what's happening. But I see now that it's not a "bug" when viewed the way you describe it - I just wish Rigol would clarify it with better terms.

Anyway, I'm happy to remove it from the list on page #1 ;D

EDIT: ...also went back and stuck-out the first post claiming it was a bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 14, 2014, 08:34:57 pm
But how to tell, it is in the definition of enter or exit the trigger level.

Ah, so you're saying "high" + "enter" means "enter the region above the high threshold" not "enter the region between the thresholds."  That explains why the manual calls it "Windows" (plural) trigger!  Yeah, everything does make sense with that meaning (except the "rising edge of the input" part of the manual.)  Thanks :) 

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 14, 2014, 08:35:30 pm
You can still write it is confusing, i read again the manual, but indeed,

Rigol writes, about the window trigger::

entering or leaving a specific level..., not a window, and there is the confusion

And, it is has a position to the first level T2, and the trigger level T1,
depends on going down or up
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 09:09:01 pm
Ah, so you're saying "high" + "enter" means "enter the region above the high threshold" not "enter the region between the thresholds."  That explains why the manual calls it "Windows" (plural) trigger!  Yeah, everything does make sense with that meaning (except the "rising edge of the input" part of the manual.)  Thanks :) 

It definitively makes more sense when you think of it as 2 Windows with a dead-band - but the definitions are still non-intuitive. When I set a Trigger to happen on a Falling edge - I expect the trigger to take place ON the Falling edge. This doesn't work that way - so the names/terms should be different because they aren't working like every other Falling/Rising edge trigger.

Rigol is also using the same edge icons that they use with triggers that actually trigger on an edge - so not good. They should be different - or the icons should automatically invert depending on ENTER/EXIT selection.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2014, 09:33:03 pm
Ah, so you're saying "high" + "enter" means "enter the region above the high threshold" not "enter the region between the thresholds."  That explains why the manual calls it "Windows" (plural) trigger!  Yeah, everything does make sense with that meaning (except the "rising edge of the input" part of the manual.)  Thanks :) 

It definitively makes more sense when you think of it as 2 Windows with a dead-band - but the definitions are still un-intuitive. When I set a Trigger to happen on a Falling edge - I expect the trigger to take place ON the Falling edge. This doesn't work that way - so the names/terms should be different because they aren't working like every other Falling/Rising edge trigger.

Rigol is also using the same edge icons that they use with triggers that actually trigger on an edge - so not good. They should be different - or the icons should automatically invert depending on ENTER/EXIT selection.

Actually, instead of RISING EDGE, FALLING EDGE, and EITHER EDGE, those terms/icons should be TOPWIN and BTMWIN and BOTH - and then everything works as it should.

TOPWIN and ENTER triggers exactly when the signal enters the top window.
TOPWIN and EXIT triggers exactly when the signal exits the top window.
BTMWIN and ENTER triggers exactly when the signal enters the bottom window.
BTNWIN and EXIT triggers exactly when the signal exits the bottom window.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 14, 2014, 11:16:16 pm
Actually, instead of RISING EDGE, FALLING EDGE, and EITHER EDGE, those terms/icons should be TOPWIN and BTMWIN and BOTH - and then everything works as it should.

Yeah, that's why I switched from "rising" to "high".  I like your names better; matches the "WndType" setting name, too.

I've been thinking about it a bit more, and I wonder why the Windows Trigger even has a WndType setting? With a TOPWIN or BTMWIN setting, it's just an edge trigger, isn't it?  What's the use case where someone would rather set that up using a Windows Trigger?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2014, 01:39:18 am
I've been thinking about it a bit more, and I wonder why the Windows Trigger even has a WndType setting? With a TOPWIN or BTMWIN setting, it's just an edge trigger, isn't it?  What's the use case where someone would rather set that up using a Windows Trigger?

Well, it's just the ability to have two different level settings instead of one. The DS2000 has 10 triggers which specify/allow 2 different levels, with 7 of those specifying/allowing a different channel for each level.

BTW, some people might not have noticed this, but there are 3 trigger types which AUTOMATICALLY use both channels (i.e. halving the sample rate) - whether you intentionally want to use both or not.

RUNT, WINDOWS, SLOPE: 2 levels - 1 possible channel can be specified as the trigger source.
DELAY: 2 levels - 2 channels ALWAYS used internally - but can be specified as the trigger source.
PATTERN, DURATION: 2 levels - 2 channels ALWAYS used internally - and can not be specified.
SETUP/HOLD, I2C, SPI, USB: 2 levels - 2 possible channels can be specified as the trigger source.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: van-c on January 15, 2014, 04:19:23 am
Perhaps the term "window" refers to a window of time that opens up rather than a geometric window.  WndType determines when the window opens-- not the time at which the signal trigger occurs.  But the trigger can only occur after the window has opened.  Trigger Position determines exactly when the signal trigger actually occurs following the window opening.  Initially, the window is closed.

For example, for the rising-edge WndType, the window opens when the signal level passes above the high trigger level.  If ENTER trigger position is specified, the signal trigger occurs when the rising edge of the signal goes above the high level (which is as soon as the window opens);  if EXIT is specified, the signal trigger occurs after the window opens, but not until the signal passes below the upper level.

For the falling-edge WndType, the window opens when the signal level passes below the low trigger level.  If ENTER trigger position is specified, the signal trigger occurs when the falling edge of the signal goes below the low level (which is as soon as the window opens);  if EXIT is specified, the signal trigger occurs after the window opens, but not until the signal passes above the lower level.

The any-edge WndType and TIME trigger position follow similarly.

Does this make sense?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2014, 05:25:38 am
The any-edge WndType and TIME trigger position follow similarly.

Does this make sense?

Honestly, not too much. It seems like a convoluted way to describe or think about a trigger. Again, they are using the same icons they use with other triggers to show Edge triggering - and yet it's not triggering on those edges! My previous assertion that Rigol has just mislabeled/mistranslated the selections Rising Edge/Falling Edge seems to fit with two descriptions I Googled of Window Triggers:

Window trigger
This trigger detects the moment when the waveform enters or leaves a voltage range. This allows you to search for overvoltages and undervoltages at the same time. In Figure 10, a 5 volt power supply is monitored with thresholds of 4.5 and 5.5 volts. The window trigger would detect both the positive and negative excursions outside this range. The Direction control specifies whether the trigger operates when the signal enters the window, exits it, or both. The Threshold 1 and Threshold 2 controls define the upper and lower limits of the voltage window.


UppLev / LowLev also work as button names (instead of Rising Edge / Falling Edge) - or Over / Under.

Window triggering lets you define a window on your oscilloscope where the window boundaries are defined by low and high voltage thresholds and either "less than" or "greater than" time. You can then let the oscilloscope trigger when the waveform enters this window, exits this window, or when it is inside/outside of this window for too long or too short of time. This trigger allows you to filter out any noise that may occur on the bus so you can look at long term transient effects.

If Rigol wants to reproduce the Window trigger as specified by most other sources (which is a single defined Window), then the Enter / Exit button names need to be reversed - and the Rise / Fall names should be changed to one of the suggestions previously mentioned.

I'm betting this whole thing boils down to some Rigol employee misinterpreting/mistranslating something from English.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2014, 02:44:55 pm
Hello freaks,

first of all, I know this board is discussing about sniffing on the I2C bus then rather of using the DSO. However so many people are there who are using the DSO. So I believe someone can answer my question very quick. I am adding a big sorry to write an off-topic question there.
My question is very simple: It is triggering problem
I am struggling with a measurement problem: I have a big power Generator who is generating 400Volts AC. The armature coil is driven by 15V DC.
Unfortunately sometimes the 400V is going to zero for 10 Seconds. After that, everything is OK for hours or days. I am trying to figure out the reason. For that I am monitoring on channel A the one 230V AC phase and on channel B the 15 DC. However how can I parametrize a trigger?  I want to store the "event" of the two Voltages. At the moment I do not what the reason for the problem is. I do  not know if the 15DC is going to zero or the 400V before.
My idea is to store the event of the power drop-out. The DSO should stop after that event the acquisition.
i can not sit hours or days on the DSO to wait for the drop-out event. The problem is the event is very short, only 10 Sec. It can happen in the middle of the night. 

Thank you so much for our help. Any sorry again for the off-topic story.
 MartyMC

Welcome, Marty!

Some (or all) of this may be obvious, but I'll write it anyway (in case there are others who can benefit):

You'll want to use either Single Shot mode or Frame (Segment) Recording - either one will store the event.
If you use the full 56 M sample size @ 1s/div - you'll get a reasonably detailed view of 14 seconds (7s pre/post trigger). Don't forget to adjust the horizontal trigger position if you want a different division between pre/post-trigger information (e.g. if you only want 1 second pre-trigger, adjust the h.trigger position 6 divs left).
As far as your trigger goes, I assume if the AC goes out, the 15V will go out as well (or vice-versa)? If so, for capture purposes, it doesn't really matter which one initiates the event - as long as you capture enough pre-trigger data to include it. So as long as you calculate the maximum amount of time it takes for an AC dropout to drop the 15V, you can just trigger using a Falling Edge trigger on the 15V. Correct me if I'm wrong with my assumptions - otherwise another option is to use one of the pattern triggers with both channels as sources.

I hope some of this is helpful for you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 15, 2014, 02:46:55 pm

If Rigol wants to reproduce the Window trigger as specified by most other sources (which is a single defined Window), then the Enter / Exit button names need to be reversed - and the Rise / Fall names should be changed to one of the suggestions previously mentioned.


i dont agree, read your post careful,

T2 is a window and T1 is a window,

if rise =true and exit=true,
then the T2 window is all that is >= T2 level
then the T1 window is all that is >= T1 level

so the first event is when a signal enters window T2, then if next sample is bigger
then window T2 is true;

If the signal rises futher: then when input == level T1, it ENTERs window T1.....
if the signal grows further it is still in window T1

Then if the signal goes down....( not rise)... and it crosses the boundery of T1, it EXITs window T1

So in my opinion Rigol is correct, in enter en exit..

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2014, 02:50:29 pm

If Rigol wants to reproduce the Window trigger as specified by most other sources (which is a single defined Window), then the Enter / Exit button names need to be reversed - and the Rise / Fall names should be changed to one of the suggestions previously mentioned.


i dont agree, read your post careful,

T2 is a window and T1 is a window,

So in my opinion Rigol is correct, in enter en exit..

;D  Read my post again carefully - notice the bold section above. All other descriptions of Window triggers online talk about it as ONE window - in the middle. My final point addressed that: if Rigol wanted their trigger to follow the standard description of a Window trigger.

Otherwise, if they want to define it as two windows with a dead-band (as mentioned before), they just need to change the name/icons of Rising and Falling (which are a mistake).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 15, 2014, 04:54:20 pm


Well some google, lots of different window systems are used:

on the ni site : Window Triggering: A window trigger occurs when a signal either enters or leaves a window you specify.

and that says it all, the window you specify...,

But i found this strange: see picture, i does not use T2 for trigger in this picture,
just using T1..., i think this is not correct..
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2014, 05:11:08 pm
on the ni site : Window Triggering: A window trigger occurs when a signal either enters or leaves a window you specify.

The pertinent bit here is "A window" - in other words, a single window - which is how everyone (but Rigol) defines a Window trigger.

Quote
But i found this strange: see picture, i does not use T2 for trigger in this picture,
just using T1..., i think this is not correct..

I'm telling you - they have the wrong name for the buttons! In your image, if instead of "Rising Edge" Icon button it was labelled "TopWindow" or "Over" or "Above", then the trigger would make perfect sense to what it's doing: Exiting the Top/Over/Above section.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2014, 05:28:46 pm
I've now officially changed the names in the new (currently beta) version of RUU so that the trigger actually makes sense ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pasky on January 16, 2014, 03:30:31 pm
Question on the usage of the DS2072.  I've found one thing extremely annoying issue, but perhaps there's a course/fine setting for the position knob that I'm unaware of.  When changing the vertical scale on the channel, I find it extremely annoying turning the position knob to find my signal again.  When I want to look at a 5V dc signal, and have it set to 50mV, I find myself turning the vertical positioning knob for what seems like forever.  Is there any way to do this faster?  I know you can press the knob button to get to 0V, but even that can take forever going from 0V to 5V in such tiny increments.  Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 04:17:15 pm
Question on the usage of the DS2072.  I've found one thing extremely annoying issue, but perhaps there's a course/fine setting for the position knob that I'm unaware of.  When changing the vertical scale on the channel, I find it extremely annoying turning the position knob to find my signal again.  When I want to look at a 5V dc signal, and have it set to 50mV, I find myself turning the vertical positioning knob for what seems like forever.  Is there any way to do this faster?  I know you can press the knob button to get to 0V, but even that can take forever going from 0V to 5V in such tiny increments.  Thanks.

Well, it would be impossible to look at a 5V DC signal centered on the screen at the 50mV setting; the offset isn't big enough:

500uV/div to 50mV/div: ± 2V
51mV/div to 200mV/div: ± 10V
205mV/div to 2V/div: ± 50V
2.05V/div to 10V/div: ± 100V

...but I understand your frustration. The problem is that there's no way to change the point you scale from to the trigger level (like you can for horizontal position). A slightly-quicker workaround is to turn the scale up to the highest level (10V), move the signal all the way down (which, at 10V, is only 6 divs below screen edge: -100V), then turn the scale back to what you want (e.g. 200mV), then slightly up or down from there. This works fairly well for factors up to about 25x - but bigger ones require a lot of spinning the knob again. ;)

Do you have the NI-VISA drivers installed and run Windows? If so, I could make you a tiny utility that will move it for you based on the trigger level.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pasky on January 16, 2014, 04:23:29 pm
Yes I do actually and I use your software already, it's such a god send to capture the wave forms so easily so I can share them with my friends and other experts online.  If you could make that tool, something as simple as entering the voltage positioning manually on the PC, I'd be forever grateful, or even add it to your existing software would be awesome as well, no need to have two pieces of software open.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 16, 2014, 04:51:16 pm
I've now officially changed the names in the new (currently beta) version of RUU so that the trigger actually makes sense ;D

Nice, but the point i wanted to make in my last post, T2 is totaly useless, is does nothing
also in your picture above, it makes no difference whatever you set T2 to, it will always trigger..

So the bug is that there is no T2 window, only a T1 window..
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 04:53:40 pm
Nice, but the point i wanted to make in my last post, T2 is totaly useless, is does nothing
also in your picture above, it makes no difference whatever you set T2 to, it will always trigger..

So the bug is that there is no T2 window, only a T1 window..

Huh?  ???  I don't understand what you mean. In my image, everything works exactly as it should with the name changes I've used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 16, 2014, 04:56:54 pm
Nice, but the point i wanted to make in my last post, T2 is totaly useless, is does nothing
also in your picture above, it makes no difference whatever you set T2 to, it will always trigger..

So the bug is that there is no T2 window, only a T1 window..

Huh?  ???  I don't understand what you mean. In my image, everything works exactly as it should with the name changes I've used.

Nothing wrong with your post or image, but something wrong with Rigol..

Try to use level T2 for something you measure...., you will see that is does nothing..
it has no infuence on the measurement

Edit: if you select type down, then T1 is useless
if you selct type rise , then T2 is useless
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 05:10:03 pm
Try to use level T2 for something you measure...., you will see that is does nothing..
it has no infuence on the measurement

Sorry, man - it works fine on my DSO. See attached images.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 16, 2014, 05:13:58 pm

test the following, in your top picture change the level of T2, see if something changes..
you can even turn it of the screen .. and nothing changes..
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 05:17:49 pm
test the following, in your top picture change the level of T2, see if something changes..
you can even turn it of the screen .. and nothing changes..

Why would it? That wouldn't make any sense: it's not related to the Top Window - it's only related to the Bottom window. My first image has the DSO set to trigger when entering the *top* window.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 16, 2014, 05:20:05 pm
test the following, in your top picture change the level of T2, see if something changes..
you can even turn it of the screen .. and nothing changes..

Why would it? That wouldn't make any sense: it's not related to the Top Window - it's only related to the Bottom window. My first image has the DSO set to trigger when entering the *top* window.

So what is then the use of using two levels, if ONLY ONE is been used...???

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 05:23:35 pm
Edit: if you select type down, then T1 is useless
if you selct type rise , then T2 is useless

Forget thinking about them as RISING EDGE and FALLING EDGE - that's a mistranslation by Rigol. It's TOP WINDOW / BOTTOM WINDOW - or ABOVE / BELOW.

So what is then the use of using two levels, if ONLY ONE is been used...???

Window trigger
This trigger detects the moment when the waveform enters or leaves a voltage range. This allows you to search for overvoltages and undervoltages at the same time. In Figure 10, a 5 volt power supply is monitored with thresholds of 4.5 and 5.5 volts. The window trigger would detect both the positive and negative excursions outside this range. The Direction control specifies whether the trigger operates when the signal enters the window, exits it, or both. The Threshold 1 and Threshold 2 controls define the upper and lower limits of the voltage window.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 16, 2014, 05:28:32 pm
Yes , i know the definition, but my point is that it is NOT WORKING, in the RIGOL

According to the definition, the signal has to cross T2 ( in rise) to trigger the first event,
and then crossing T2 triggers...

BUT in the RIGOL trun T2 down to the signal so, it does not cross T2, just T1, and it still works..., that is NO window......
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 05:39:33 pm
Yes , i know the definition, but my point is that it is NOT WORKING, in the RIGOL

According to the definition, the signal has to cross T2 ( in rise) to trigger the first event,
and then crossing T2 triggers...

BUT in the RIGOL trun T2 down to the signal so, it does not cross T2, just T1, and it still works..., that is NO window......

No, it seems you don't understand the definition - otherwise you would understand it's working. The signal NEVER has to cross T2 - unless you tell it you want to trigger when it enters or exits the bottom window - or -  either window. The attached image shows trigger on ENTER EITHER WINDOW:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 16, 2014, 05:48:16 pm
Well oke, no problem,  then we differ from opinion about that.......
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 05:55:31 pm
Well oke, no problem,  then we differ from opinion about that.......

It's not opinion, my friend - I don't think you understand how it's supposed to work. As mentioned in the text I copied and pasted, the trigger's purpose is to allow you to set two threshold voltages - creating a "window" in-between - and then have the DSO trigger if the signal enters OR exits (OR either) that "window". In the given example, monitoring a 5V power supply for positive and/or negative excursions outside the range of 4.5 and 5.5 volts.

This is exactly what the Rigol's Windows trigger can do -  albeit hopefully with some changed names in a later FW ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 16, 2014, 06:04:59 pm
Well oke, no problem,  then we differ from opinion about that.......

It's not opinion, my friend - I don't think you understand how it's supposed to work. As mentioned in the text I copied and pasted, the trigger's purpose is to allow you to set two threshold voltages - creating a "window" in-between - and then have the DSO trigger if the signal enters OR exits (OR either) that "window". In the given example, monitoring a 5V power supply for positive and/or negative excursions outside the range of 4.5 and 5.5 volts.

This is exactly what the Rigol's Windows trigger can do -  albeit hopefully with some changed names in a later FW ;)

As far i read all the info, it has to be T2 AND T1, but your interpretation is T1 OR T2, oke that makes this topic more simple

see if i can find more on it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 16, 2014, 06:16:56 pm
The folowing test, to see where i am wrong,

Picture 1, T1 and T2 above, no trigger possible
Picture 2, T1 and T2 low, perfect trigger

( rise and exit on. )

Why is there no trigger possible in picture 1.......
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 06:27:21 pm
As far i read all the info, it has to be T2 AND T1, but your interpretation is T1 OR T2, oke that makes this topic more simple

see if i can find more on it.

Why would it be T1 AND T2? How would that help in the given example of looking for power supply fluctuations? It has to fluctuate both up AND down? It makes no sense.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 06:31:02 pm
( rise and exit on. )

Why is there no trigger possible in picture 1.......

There is no real "RISE" - it's TOP WINDOW - and your signal is never exiting the top window.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 06:44:13 pm
Set T1 to 5.5V and T2 to 4.5V - then ENTER and EITHER (Rising and Falling Arrows) - and you will replicate the trigger description here. As I've mentioned a million times already :) Rigol uses a TWO window definition with a deadband; I personally would prefer a SINGLE window definition - but then they would have to reverse the ENTER/EXIT functions.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=77001)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pasky on January 16, 2014, 08:05:08 pm
Sorry to steer off topic, but is there a link to your latest VISA software Marmad?  I don't remember what thread I found it in, but the last time I downloaded it was roughly this summer.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 16, 2014, 08:25:07 pm
When changing the vertical scale on the channel, I find it extremely annoying turning the position knob to find my signal again.  When I want to look at a 5V dc signal, and have it set to 50mV, I find myself turning the vertical positioning knob for what seems like forever. 
Try changing the VerticalExp setting: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg311883/#msg311883 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg311883/#msg311883)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 08:28:29 pm
Question on the usage of the DS2072.  I've found one thing extremely annoying issue, but perhaps there's a course/fine setting for the position knob that I'm unaware of.  When changing the vertical scale on the channel, I find it extremely annoying turning the position knob to find my signal again.  When I want to look at a 5V dc signal, and have it set to 50mV, I find myself turning the vertical positioning knob for what seems like forever.  Is there any way to do this faster?  I know you can press the knob button to get to 0V, but even that can take forever going from 0V to 5V in such tiny increments.  Thanks.

@Pasky: While thinking back on your question, it dawned on me that I didn't think to ask you exactly what you're trying to do. Forgive me if the following is obvious to you, but if you're looking for disturbances in a 5V DC signal, using AC coupling will center the signal at 0V (screen center) but also pass glitches and other disturbances you can zoom in on. If you're trying to "zoom in" on the upper edge of a 0 to 5V waveform, it's not going to work because you're going to overdrive the input amp - and whatever edge you see will end up being distorted anyway.

Sorry to steer off topic, but is there a link to your latest VISA software Marmad?  I don't remember what thread I found it in, but the last time I downloaded it was roughly this summer.

I'm hard at work on a major new version now - and haven't uploaded any versions since last February (a year of house renovations later). So I think you must have the latest :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 08:30:27 pm
Try changing the VerticalExp setting: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg311883/#msg311883 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg311883/#msg311883)
Damn!! I thought that was somewhere in the settings - but couldn't find it today when looking. It really should be in the Channel Menus! ;D

(And ideally stored and remembered for each channel.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 16, 2014, 08:34:48 pm
Why is there no trigger possible in picture 1.......
The trigger is set to fire when the signal enters the top window, but the signal never enters the top window. 

The icon for the trigger (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=77020) kind of indicates that the point is a transition between "middle" and "not middle" areas, and then you configure which transitions are interesting (middle-top, middle-bottom, or both; etc.)

And yes, based on our current understanding of the trigger, a "top" trigger does nothing with the lower trigger threshold.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 08:41:55 pm
The trigger is set to fire when the signal enters the top window, but the signal never enters the top window.  The legend for the trigger (upper left) is actually clearer than the text. 

I'm not sure there's anything clear about Rigol's legends and names for this (and some other) triggers ;D  They also seem to have skimped on storage space for the different trigger icons used at the top, which rarely change due to conditions you set for the trigger (they only change for Edge, Pulse, and Slope).

The icon you posted stays the same regardless of conditions. And the delta icon and level doesn't make sense if you think of the area as 2 windows. They only use it because they don't devote enough screen real estate for two distinct voltage levels.

I wrote software for displaying extended trigger information in RUU because, for the complex triggers, the amount of info Rigol displays is pathetic. Take a look at one of my screen images posted from RUU (with Trigger Level indicators turned ON) and decide if it or the DSO provides better insight into what the Windows trigger is doing ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 16, 2014, 08:52:33 pm
The icon you posted stays the same regardless of conditions. And the delta icon and level doesn't make sense if you think of the area as 2 windows. They only use it because they don't devote enough screen real estate for two distinct voltage levels.
Aww, such a missed opportunity! Firmware update suggestion :)  Ok, I'll redact my post.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 08:54:42 pm
Aww, such a missed opportunity! Firmware update suggestion :)  Ok, I'll redact my post.

Absolutely! If they just got creative with their icons at the top, they could provide a lot more information than they do ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pasky on January 16, 2014, 09:23:51 pm
Question on the usage of the DS2072.  I've found one thing extremely annoying issue, but perhaps there's a course/fine setting for the position knob that I'm unaware of.  When changing the vertical scale on the channel, I find it extremely annoying turning the position knob to find my signal again.  When I want to look at a 5V dc signal, and have it set to 50mV, I find myself turning the vertical positioning knob for what seems like forever.  Is there any way to do this faster?  I know you can press the knob button to get to 0V, but even that can take forever going from 0V to 5V in such tiny increments.  Thanks.

@Pasky: While thinking back on your question, it dawned on me that I didn't think to ask you exactly what you're trying to do. Forgive me if the following is obvious to you, but if you're looking for disturbances in a 5V DC signal, using AC coupling will center the signal at 0V (screen center) but also pass glitches and other disturbances you can zoom in on. If you're trying to "zoom in" on the upper edge of a 0 to 5V waveform, it's not going to work because you're going to overdrive the input amp - and whatever edge you see will end up being distorted anyway.


Oh sorry, that was just an example off the top of my head to, I'm not really doing anything in particular, I just found it extremely annoying to zoom in on any wave form in the lower mV divisions.

Also thanks that VerticalEx setting did the trick
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2014, 09:42:59 pm
Also thanks that VerticalEx setting did the trick

Yeah! It was great that Galaxyrise posted that info: I was sure that function existed on the DS2000 when you first posted the question, but I couldn't find it in any of the menus or docs I looked in - so then I thought I must have confused it with another DSO (since I owned 3 other ones in a span of about 2 months).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: m-joy on January 20, 2014, 10:46:01 am
Hello,

can someone explain me how to use the self cal feature?
The manual says i should connect the trigger out on the back with CH1, CH2 and Extern trigger.
Does that mean, i have to connect all at once? What is the best way to connect one BNC to all 3 inputs?
Do i have to calibrate or is it calibrated on delivery?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Altemir on January 20, 2014, 11:13:19 am
Hello,

can someone explain me how to use the self cal feature?
The manual says i should connect the trigger out on the back with CH1, CH2 and Extern trigger.
Does that mean, i have to connect all at once? What is the best way to connect one BNC to all 3 inputs?
Do i have to calibrate or is it calibrated on delivery?

From Rigol's site:
Quote
Does the DS2000 Scope require external connections for self calibration? 
ANSWER: The DS2000 series self calibration routine specifies no connections to the inputs on the front panel. Early versions of the User's Manual are incorrect.
But I did not find new versions of UM, where this is has corrected :)

I saw special cables and simpe board for DS4000 calibration, and for DS6000 is document: http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/Rigol/DS6102/ds6102_doc_7.pdf (http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/Rigol/DS6102/ds6102_doc_7.pdf)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 20, 2014, 11:19:20 am
The manual says i should connect the trigger out on the back with CH1, CH2 and Extern trigger.
Does that mean, i have to connect all at once? What is the best way to connect one BNC to all 3 inputs?

That's a mistake copied from the DS4000 manual - you should have no connections to front BNCs when you do a self-calibration.

Quote
Do i have to calibrate or is it calibrated on delivery?

It's been factory calibrated - but it's not a bad idea to do a self-calibration occasionally to optimize the signal path for maximum measurement accuracy. You can run the routine at any time but should always run it if the ambient temperature changes by 5°C or more. Just make sure it has been powered on for at least 30 minutes before running the self-cal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on January 20, 2014, 12:09:41 pm
From Rigol's site:
Quote
Does the DS2000 Scope require external connections for self calibration? 
ANSWER: The DS2000 series self calibration routine specifies no connections to the inputs on the front panel. Early versions of the User's Manual are incorrect.
But I did not find new versions of UM, where this is has corrected :)
Here you are, both the old DS2000 and the much newer DS2000A User's Guide say "Disconnect all the input channel connections".

DS2000 User's Guide 2012-09-21
http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/DS2000_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/DS2000_UserGuide_EN.pdf)

DS2000A User's Guide 2013-12-02 (same as DS2000 + 50 ohm input option)
http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/DS2000A_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/DS2000A_UserGuide_EN.pdf)
Page 14:
Quote
Self-calibration

The self-calibration program can quickly make the oscilloscope reach the best working state to get the most precise measurement values. You can perform self-calibration at any time especially when the change of the environment temperature is up to or more than 5 ?. Make sure that the oscilloscope has been warmed up or operated for more than 30 minutes before the self-calibration.
 
Disconnect all the input channel connections, and then press Utility -> Self-Cal and the self-calibration interface as shown in the figure below is displayed.
 
Press Start and the oscilloscope will start to execute the self-calibration program.
Press Exit to give up the self-calibration operation at any time and return to the previous menu.
 
Note: Most of the keys are disabled during the self-calibration.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 20, 2014, 12:21:10 pm
Now if someone just answers him a fourth time, I think he might finally understand. ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 20, 2014, 12:25:03 pm
Has it been confirmed already that the HW design is identical between DS2072A and DS2302A?

I know that it has been confirmed between DS2072 and DS2202, but not for the A series AFAIK, and especially not for the new 300 MHz variant.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Altemir on January 20, 2014, 12:26:11 pm
Here you are, both the old DS2000 and the much newer DS2000A User's Guide say "Disconnect all the input channel connections".
Wow, You found a last UM! Thanks. I saw on www.rigolna.com (http://www.rigolna.com), there is old versions.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 20, 2014, 12:39:48 pm
Has it been confirmed already that the HW design is identical between DS2072A and DS2302A?

No, but I'm pretty sure your question has been answered before. It's highly unlikely Rigol would produce one hardware variant of an entire series for one model - but no one (here) owns a DS2302A and with published hacks all over the net, it's unlikely many people will buy them.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 20, 2014, 04:36:38 pm
Hi guys.
Anyone know how much memory uses the DS2072 to estimate the FFT?
Thanks.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Altemir on January 20, 2014, 04:57:10 pm
Hi guys.
Anyone know how much memory uses the DS2072 to estimate the FFT?
Thanks.  ;)
Rigol said only 2048 dots :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 20, 2014, 05:29:47 pm
Rigol said only 2048 dots :(
Not so bad.
Thank you very much.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 20, 2014, 05:40:13 pm
Not so bad.
Thank you very much.

If you don't need to do it real-time, you can do it externally with as many sample points as you want.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 20, 2014, 05:42:48 pm
Yes, using something like this:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 20, 2014, 05:45:24 pm
Yes, using something like this:

Or this:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 20, 2014, 05:49:50 pm
@marmad: Is this your software? Because doesn't seems Matlab.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 20, 2014, 05:56:40 pm
@marmad: Is this your software? Because doesn't seems Matlab.

No, someone else - it's posted elsewhere in this forum: wfm_view

The only thing is that it requires the old WFM format (from the DS1000), but my upcoming version of RUU saves sample memory in old WFM format - so no problem ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 20, 2014, 06:00:55 pm
I get it.  ;)
But why did not you use LabView or CVI to implement your software? Many advanced graphics functions are already made. :-//

http://www.ni.com/lwcvi (http://www.ni.com/lwcvi)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 20, 2014, 06:10:54 pm
I've been researching a bit. I don't know if anyone else has been wondering, who designed this equipment (DS2000 Series).
Well, this is all that I could find:

http://www.rdmag.com/award-winners/2012/08/complex-waveforms-simplified (http://www.rdmag.com/award-winners/2012/08/complex-waveforms-simplified)
http://www.rdmag.com/award-winners/2011/08/new-playing-field-gigahertz-oscilloscopes (http://www.rdmag.com/award-winners/2011/08/new-playing-field-gigahertz-oscilloscopes)

I figure that these people may be part of the team.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on January 20, 2014, 06:57:01 pm
I get it.  ;)
But why did not you use LabView or CVI to implement your software? Many advanced graphics functions are already made. :-//

http://www.ni.com/lwcvi (http://www.ni.com/lwcvi)

And labview is free software?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 20, 2014, 07:05:09 pm
I get it.  ;)
But why did not you use LabView or CVI to implement your software? Many advanced graphics functions are already made. :-//

http://www.ni.com/lwcvi (http://www.ni.com/lwcvi)

And labview is free software?
NO.  ::)
LOL...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 20, 2014, 08:54:41 pm
I'm waiting for the DS2000A with LA.

The Rigol MSO4000 has a sampling rate of 1GSPS for the LA. And I think that the DS1000D series LA has a sampling rate of 200MSPS.

I'm wondering if the DS2000A's LA will have a sampling rate of 500MSPS or 1GSPS.
Anyone know anything about it?

Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on January 20, 2014, 11:39:55 pm
I'm waiting for the DS2000A with LA.

That would seem to be their logical next new-product announcement.  Perhaps mid-year.

Quote
The Rigol MSO4000 has a sampling rate of 1GSPS for the LA.  And I think that the DS1000D series LA has a sampling rate of 200MSPS.

That's correct.

Quote
I'm wondering if the DS2000A's LA will have a sampling rate of 500MSPS or 1GSPS.

Most likely 500 MSa/s.  Think about it.

Quote
Anyone know anything about it?

No, nothing at all.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on January 21, 2014, 12:53:09 am
I get it.  ;)
But why did not you use LabView or CVI to implement your software? Many advanced graphics functions are already made. :-//

http://www.ni.com/lwcvi (http://www.ni.com/lwcvi)
And labview is free software?
NO.  ::)
LOL...
Neither is extra BW, trigger and decoder options etc. for Rigol products...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: m-joy on January 21, 2014, 08:18:44 am
Yes, using something like this:

what is the name of the software?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on January 21, 2014, 08:20:11 am
Yes, using something like this:

what is the name of the software?

This one http://meteleskublesku.cz/wfm_view/ (http://meteleskublesku.cz/wfm_view/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 21, 2014, 02:49:04 pm
I'm waiting for the DS2000A with LA.

The Rigol MSO4000 has a sampling rate of 1GSPS for the LA. And I think that the DS1000D series LA has a sampling rate of 200MSPS.

I'm wondering if the DS2000A's LA will have a sampling rate of 500MSPS or 1GSPS.
Anyone know anything about it?

Thanks.

Are there any rumours or confirmations about upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA?
Will the LA have 8 channels or 16 channels? When is it expected? Details on launch date and model numbers? Pictures?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on January 21, 2014, 03:11:02 pm
Are there any rumours or confirmations about upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA?
Will the LA have 8 channels or 16 channels? When is it expected? Details on launch date and model numbers? Pictures?
My speculations:
  - Upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA? Yes, no doubt!
  - Model numbers: DS2072AD, DS2102AD, DS2202AD and DS2302AD.
  - LA 8 Channels at 1GSPS.
  - Launch in the EU, 6 months after it is launched in China.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-series-model-designation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-series-model-designation/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/msg270640/#msg270640 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/msg270640/#msg270640)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: branadic on January 23, 2014, 07:15:29 pm
Received two DS2202A this week for our company, including the offical options Deep Memory and Decode.
Thanks to this thread I was able to successfully update both devices to the latest firmware. I'm really happy with this new hardware version and the integrated 50R termination.
In return some old analog 20MHz HAMEG scopes were rejected, that's a fair deal :)

branadic
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on January 24, 2014, 06:56:55 pm
maybe you've found that out already: if you switch off while the screensaver is active, it'll also be active when you switch DSO back on (that means they actually store a "screensaver is active" value somewhere? really odd IMO
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 25, 2014, 11:55:26 am
Not sure if anyone else has seen this yet - Each trace has a pointer at the edge of the screen identifying it as CH1 or CH2. With no signal in, CH2 trace lines up perfectly with CH2 pointer and so the offset reading of the trace (if any) corresponds with the trace position. For CH1 the pointer and the trace are offset by several pixels so the offset reading and the trace position are different. For example the pointer might be offset three divisions and the reading shows 3.00 volts offset but the trace is not directly over the graticule line. This is after the scope has calibrated itself after running about 6 hours. What's more, this offset of CH1 trace varies as you turn CH2 off and on.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 25, 2014, 12:37:12 pm
With no signal in, CH2 trace lines up perfectly with CH2 pointer and so the offset reading of the trace (if any) corresponds with the trace position. For CH1 the pointer and the trace are offset by several pixels so the offset reading and the trace position are different.

Actually, on my DS2000 it's the opposite: with no input, CH2 is offset by a few pixels.

Quote
This is after the scope has calibrated itself after running about 6 hours. What's more, this offset of CH1 trace varies as you turn CH2 off and on.

I haven't calibrated my DSO for awhile, but the slight offset of CH2 does not change with CH1 being turned on and off. But as long as the DSO is aware of the offset (i.e. it's included in any measurements), I don't think it particularly matters. To check if there is an offset between the pointer and what the DSO perceives as ground, set the coupling to GND.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 25, 2014, 12:52:56 pm
Here are my maximum offsets at the lowest voltage scale. You can see the slightly larger offset in CH2's stats:

EDIT: BTW, the channel pointer is supposed to point to ground - not the input signal level. If there is offset, the trace shouldn't line up with the pointer.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 25, 2014, 01:05:21 pm
Okay.
I've taken a video and trying to compress it to a reasonable size to upload to youtube.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 25, 2014, 01:16:53 pm
Okay.
I've taken a video and trying to compress it to a reasonable size to upload to youtube.
Righteo, here it is, 273MB compressed to 13MB for the sake of upload.
http://youtu.be/6OQOK85-r0c (http://youtu.be/6OQOK85-r0c)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on January 25, 2014, 01:43:25 pm
Similar behaviour on my ds2202a-s, did not let the scope warm up though, but ch1 moves a tiny bit.
Since I have 10x probes i set my scope to adjust for that, so I adjusted to 30v when testing. (Don't know how to turn on those labels at the bottom that shows the measurements yet though, but visually, the line moves)

I'm not worried though, far outside my usage-range I guess.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 25, 2014, 01:51:02 pm
To check if there is an offset between the pointer and what the DSO perceives as ground, set the coupling to GND.
When I set the coupling to ground there is ZERO offset between the pointer and the trace, both channels, and turning one channel on and off has no effect on the other channel. If I wind the sensitivity right up and set to X1 then CH1 has no offset and CH2 has +250uV offset. Using averaging to get good trace. If I short the BNC connector with a small screwdriver the CH2 offset goes down to 150uV, not zero like with GND coupling.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 25, 2014, 02:02:12 pm
What I will do next (not now, it's 1AM here ) is set the trace pointer to vertical midpoint on screen then put in a DC voltage of say +4 divisions worth and note the voltage the scope displays, then reverse polarity and see if it goes down exactly 4 divisions and what voltage is displayed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on January 26, 2014, 12:59:20 am
Not sure if anyone else has seen this yet - Each trace has a pointer at the edge of the screen identifying it as CH1 or CH2. With no signal in, CH2 trace lines up perfectly with CH2 pointer and so the offset reading of the trace (if any) corresponds with the trace position. For CH1 the pointer and the trace are offset by several pixels so the offset reading and the trace position are different. For example the pointer might be offset three divisions and the reading shows 3.00 volts offset but the trace is not directly over the graticule line. This is after the scope has calibrated itself after running about 6 hours. What's more, this offset of CH1 trace varies as you turn CH2 off and on.

On my DS2072, I found that the lineup between marker and zero input trace changed slightly with each self calibration.  I got the best result by performing a self calibration in an area as far away from potential sources of EMI as possible.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 27, 2014, 01:17:18 am
Having a further look at this offset business - at about 1 or 2 pixels below halfway up the screen there is a point where the pointer and the trace line up perfectly. The further you go up or down the screen the greater the offset between the pointer and the trace, positive offset up the screen and negative offset down the screen. What's more, if you have the peak voltage reading turned on, at 1V/div it shows 40mV at 1 div, 80 mV at 2 div etc. So the scope is actually reading some kind of voltage.

Another probably related thing, if you wind the trace off the top of the screen it gets to where it says "adjustment overrange" or some words to that effect, can't remember now. But if you wind the trace off bottom of the screen, at say -20v offset position the peak voltage reading shows about 15v when there is no actual input. Hmmm....
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 27, 2014, 12:35:28 pm
Had a super close look at the screen with my watchmaker's loupe.
The grid is 400 pixels top to bottom. (screen is 480 of course)
Thinnest trace when using large average number is 2 pixels wide. (not always, see next post)
The trace pointer can be moved in 1 pixel increments - 400 steps
The two pixel wide trace can only be moved in two pixel increments - 200 steps. (8 bit D/A?)

What happens is the pointer may be pointing to the lower line of the trace. Wind the pointer up one pixel and it points to the upper line of the trace (the trace does not move). Wind the pointer up one pixel further and the trace moves up two pixels so the pointer is now pointing to the lower line of the trace again.

At 1V per div one pixel is worth 20mV. The pointer can move in 20mV steps but the trace can only move in 40mV steps. There will always be some ambiguity with the measured voltage vs trace position if the trace is not an odd number of pixels wide, or if the trace pointer moves in different size steps to the trace.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 27, 2014, 01:51:31 pm
Okay, so you can get a 1 pixel wide trace in some circumstances. See pic.
Notice though that the blue trace has a minimum resolution of 2 vertical pixels (1 LSB?) whereas the trace pointer can be moved 1 pixel at a time. Whether a 1 pixel wide trace can be moved 1 pixel at a time with the pointer though remains to be seen.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on January 27, 2014, 03:49:27 pm
Okay, so you can get a 1 pixel wide trace in some circumstances. See pic.
High Res Acquisition, right?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 27, 2014, 05:37:37 pm
Having a further look at this offset business - at about 1 or 2 pixels below halfway up the screen there is a point where the pointer and the trace line up perfectly. The further you go up or down the screen the greater the offset between the pointer and the trace, positive offset up the screen and negative offset down the screen. What's more, if you have the peak voltage reading turned on, at 1V/div it shows 40mV at 1 div, 80 mV at 2 div etc. So the scope is actually reading some kind of voltage.

This is normal and listed in the specifications:  "DC Offset Accuracy: ±0.1 div ± 2 mV ± 1% offset value"

I suggest you do some reading on DC offset in DSOs - and how it's specified.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 27, 2014, 05:40:22 pm
The trace pointer can be moved in 1 pixel increments - 400 steps
The two pixel wide trace can only be moved in two pixel increments - 200 steps. (8 bit D/A?)

Discussed many many times in this thread: the DS2000 (and DS1000Z) map 200 ADC values to the 400 pixel high waveform display area.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 27, 2014, 11:48:59 pm
Discussed many many times in this thread: the DS2000 (and DS1000Z) map 200 ADC values to the 400 pixel high waveform display area.
Okay, I'll try and find it. That's the trouble when threads get this long.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 28, 2014, 12:02:27 am
Okay, I'll try and find it. That's the trouble when threads get this long.
Sorry if I came across as short - I know it can be difficult to locate things we've talked about in such a lengthy thread. It's not a very efficient system for locating information.

BTW, here's a pretty good Tektronix link (http://www1.tek.com/Measurement/scopes/selection/performance/vertical_gain.html) on DC gain and offset accuracy (and specification) in DSOs.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 10, 2014, 12:45:56 am
Can Anyone Confirm this RARE BUG??
The time base is INCORRECT with my DS2072 under these conditions
  1.  Timebase is set to 200ms/div
  2   Memory is set to 28Mpts or 56Mpts
  3.  Aliasing is ON

The Display Locks up , struck on T'D and no tracing

In these pics
  1.I am sweeping from 1-100Mhz ,with the 20MHz BW filter  & Alaising off, OK
  2.with same conditions &  Aliasing ON  ,
  3.with same conditions,56Mpts &  Aliasing ON  ,

The timebase is compressed from(14x200ms)2.8Sec into (9.6x200ms)=1.92S.for 28Mpts
The timebase is compressed from(14x200ms)2.8Sec into (12x200ms)=2.4S.for 56Mpts

A setting of 50, 100 or 500ms/div are OK

This Bug occurs on FW 00.01.00.05,  FW 01.01.00.02, & FW 02.01.00.03
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Rory on February 10, 2014, 05:04:17 pm
Yes. I can confirm.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: gaijin on February 10, 2014, 05:33:17 pm
Happens here also.
Only seems to happen with channel 2 enabled.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: gaijin on February 10, 2014, 06:05:22 pm
yeah my mistake
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on February 10, 2014, 06:09:38 pm
Does it exists any youtube channel that teaches how to use the scope?, or any places with good usability writeups?

Say, I tried something simple, to see if there are any overshoot on my psu, I think I somewhat managed to make the trigger to work (voltage) but I couldn't get an detailed view of it.. And when I try to capture an wave, it seems like it captures like 5-7 frames?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: gaijin on February 10, 2014, 07:15:41 pm
it doesn't seem to be limited to 200ms

28Mpts
I see it happening in:
200ms
1s
2s
10s
20s

while these don't seem to have the problem:
500ms
5s
50s
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on February 11, 2014, 11:42:34 am
I have it too.
Move the centre reference to the right and the end of the trace doesn't move as far as the reference.
The trace actually stops scanning. I could see a glitch on the trace where I plugged the USB flash drive in and it never went away.

-> The problem does not seem to occur in hi-res mode, only normal and peak detect. <-
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on February 14, 2014, 09:38:46 pm
Hello:

When decode zoomed data in SPI mode, the bus status is shifted respect waveforms.
The sample picture was captured in 1mS scale and zoomend to 100.0nS.
DS2202, [FW v.02.01.00.03]

Can someone verify this?

Settings:
SCLK:
Channel: 2
Slope: Rissing.
Threshold 1.92V
SDA:
Channel: 1
Polarity: _|1|_
Threshold 1.9V

Timeout: 87.0nS
Data Bits: 8
Endian: MSB
Format : Hex


Thanks.

Luis Gomez B.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on February 15, 2014, 03:12:47 am
Hello Teneyes.

I'm triggering on external event with dedicated pin, I need to isolate especific data for debug.
Runtime Zoom wont work, It does not update bus status until stop, may be a bug, decode is just a buggy thing, and very usefull.
You can see in the image that it is showing data:0x07 when it is really 0x27...?? another bug??

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: casinada on February 15, 2014, 04:34:21 am
Luchog,
Is it possible to improve the quality of the SPI signals? may be the ground line is too long and the Scope is having a hard time decoding properly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on February 15, 2014, 04:10:54 pm
Hello casinada.

Yes, you are right, the ground line is not good, anyway, in good signals i get the same problem.
Next week I´ll test more, and post results here.

Thanks.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on February 19, 2014, 12:00:35 am
Hello.

Here i uploaded two more samples, this time good waveforms.
- One sample SPI mode, 12Mbit. same settings as before.
- The other sample in RS232 mode, 2Mbit, 8bit, no parity, 1 stop, LSB.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on February 19, 2014, 11:36:35 am
Here i uploaded two more samples, this time good waveforms.
- One sample SPI mode, 12Mbit. same settings as before.
- The other sample in RS232 mode, 2Mbit, 8bit, no parity, 1 stop, LSB.

Yes, those are much cleaner.  I'm still confused about two things.

1) why do you think the scope should be able to properly decode a bitstream, when not  triggering on that protocol as well?  In both cases, you trigger on alternate sources.  Just because you draw lines on the screen where you think bytes should begin and end, how is the scope supposed to know that?  The Green boxes indicate, for better or worse, where the scope decided it should start & stop.  When those don't match your expectations, you can be pretty sure you've got one or more settings wrong.

2) on the RS232 decode, the second Green box indicates a Data value of 0, yet I see no way the bitstream could be interpreted in such a fashion.  Regardless of MSB/LSB settings, etc., that's not a zero.  So I'm curious how the scope made that determination.

One clue is that every byte is flagged with a red Error marker at the end.  Since there's no Parity defined, that means the Start/Stop bits are not lining up where the scope thinks they should be.  It's saying, "Here's what I'm decoding, based on the info I have, and it all looks wrong to me".

I understand you want/need to trigger on some other conditions, but is there some reason you're not willing to even try triggering on SPI and UART, to see what happens?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: H.O on February 19, 2014, 01:59:51 pm
Hi,
Quote
When decode zoomed data in SPI mode, the bus status is shifted respect waveforms.
Isn't this the same issue that was on the DS4k a couple of firmware versions ago. Ie, the decoded data "drifted" in relation to the trace when "zooming" and panning thru the captured data?

To me it sounds like that is the problem and, at least on the DS4k, it was fixed one or two firmware revisions ago. If you're not running the latest version or have any specific reasons not to I'd probably try that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sotos on February 19, 2014, 02:51:22 pm
What version are we talking about?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: H.O on February 19, 2014, 04:03:15 pm
Hi,
Provided this IS indeed the same issue the problem went away when upgrading to 02.00.00.04 - but that was and is for the DS4k, I can't speak for the DS2k as I don't think they share the same firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2014, 04:29:31 pm
I'm triggering on external event with dedicated pin, I need to isolate especific data for debug.

As mentioned many times already in this thread, the External Trigger is basically worthless (and a separate analog path from the digital triggers) - and could introduce timing errors to decoding.

As Mark_O already posted - and as explicitly shown in the the DS2000 User Manual section on decoding (see attached image taken from manual) - protocol decoding should be teamed with the corresponding trigger.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on February 19, 2014, 06:14:51 pm
Hello Mark_O.


Some more info:
- As i can see, decode is not related to trigger at all but wave forms, you can even decode in auto triggering mode in the midle of a string.
- The lines i draw are in the correct place,  confirmed with LA1034 LOGICPORT tool that is decoding as expected.
- I dont know how the scope knows the start bit, anyway it is doing it in not zoomed strings any kind of trigger.
- In SPI i trigger with CS signal, sometimes with GPIO, edge or SPI trigger with same result in zoomed string.
- In current string I can not trigger In RS232 mode because the scope suport up to 900Kb for trigger, the string is 2Mb.

I don`t know if any parameter is wrong, but ...  decoded data don´t match waveforms.


sotos, firmware version is 02.01.00.03.


marmad:
- Where in the manual you can find this? "protocol decoding should be teamed with the corresponding trigger".
- The image you refer is other topic, the case of not enough clocks.
- After heavy use of decode function, i can asure that it is not dependant of trigger mode.



Please see the new image, trigger SPI.

Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on February 20, 2014, 03:09:39 pm
Hello Mark_O.

Hi, Luis.  Thanks for continuing to pursue this.  I hope you don't interpret my comments as argumentative.  I'm just trying to be helpful, and come to some understanding, along with you.  I don't have a DS2000 here, or I'd hook it into one of my SPI-bus projects, and look for myself.

Quote
Some more info:
- As i can see, decode is not related to trigger at all but wave forms, you can even decode in auto triggering mode in the midle of a string.

Yes, but can you do so properly?  It's always possible to say, "Start here and decode what you see", but getting the Start point correct is critical.  Otherwise, what you get out is garbage.

Quote
- The lines i draw are in the correct place,  confirmed with LA1034 LOGICPORT tool that is decoding as expected.

I'm sure they are correct, with the way you (and the LogicPort) are interpreting the stream.  Does the Logicport have only two SPI lines connected, as the DS2000 does?  Or does it also have a CE/CS (Enable/Select) line to help demarcate active segments?

One thing I noticed right away is that your last SPI snapshot actually has a gated CLK signal.  In all the rest, it has been (or appeared) continuous.  And with a continuous clock, no CE signal, and no gaps between data bytes (to trigger a resync), how would any device (or person) be able to tell where the byte boundaries were?  I've written software SPI decoders before, and I couldn't figure that one out.  So I wasn't surprised that the DS2000 couldn't either.

Quote
- I dont know how the scope knows the start bit, anyway it is doing it in not zoomed strings any kind of trigger.

Bingo!  I think that's the crux of the problem.  Sure you can ignore the trigger type.  And yes, the DS2000 will scrape the display memory and (try to) decode anything you throw at it.  But the Start bit is fundamental.  Look back at your RS232 capture.  It jumps in and interprets what it sees, but flags every byte as defective.  That's because you didn't use RS232 triggering, which would let it know it needed to detect Start and Stop bits, to demarcate a byte cell.  Without that context, Start and Stop bits are just more data.

Quote
- In SPI i trigger with CS signal, sometimes with GPIO, edge or SPI trigger with same result in zoomed string.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.  If you mean that you're using a Select line (CS) through the ExtTrigger input, marmad has already explained why that won't work.  It should!  I think we all agree it would be much better if it did.  Trying to decode SPI without it is problematic at best.  But it doesn't.

Quote
- In current string I can not trigger In RS232 mode because the scope suport up to 900Kb for trigger, the string is 2Mb.

Ah, OK.  So you've exceeded the documented capability of the scope.  I didn't think of that right away, because the fastest I've ever driven RS232 in any of my designs was about 1 Mbit/sec.

Quote
I don`t know if any parameter is wrong, but ...  decoded data don´t match waveforms.

I think the later implies the former.  ;)  Unless the scope is completely broken, which hasn't been reported here.  Maybe it's just because you're the only one who has dug into this.   :-//  I don't know.

Quote
marmad:
- Where in the manual you can find this? "protocol decoding should be teamed with the corresponding trigger".

I'll let marmad respond to this (if he likes), but it's been my opinion that enabling a decoder should also at least default to the corresponding trigger mode.  And then let you override that, where needed or appropriate.  But the DS2000 is not the only scope that gives you the flexibility to hang yourself in this way.  On the scopes I've seen, defaulting to the matching trigger mode is the exception, not the rule.  You're forced to redundantly set both, and I'd guess this is because they're independent options.  I.e., not linked, as they should be.

Quote
- After heavy use of decode function, i can asure that it is not dependant of trigger mode.  Please see the new image, trigger SPI.

I don't think we can reach that conclusion at this point.  For example, in your last screen shot with SPI triggering (thanks for trying that), we see a gated CLK-signal line, for the first time.  AND all the data bytes are decoded correctly!  Also for the first time.  However, there is a 1 division skew in the decoded green boxes that I don't understand (yet).  But I am curious about it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on February 20, 2014, 07:20:22 pm
Thanks Mark_O, you are very scientific  :).

I found, decoding is ok, the problem is the data display is shifted respect waveforms, more far from trigger event more shifted.
I think it is an cumulative error calculating the position of data to show.
May be there are more cases when this shifting is happening.

Can someone verify this?

Thanks.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on February 22, 2014, 11:44:17 pm
Okay, 200mS/div sweep, single shot, hi-res mode.
The resulting trace is pretty dull. After it is captured, if I move it even slightly to the right or left it becomes normal brightness.
The vertical sections of the blue trace are 1 pixel wide in both cases.
Not a really big deal, but maybe something Rigol should consider on their bug list.

Is anyone here actually going to send them a list of bugs?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on February 24, 2014, 07:05:17 pm
Is anyone here actually going to send them a list of bugs?
As you can read earlier in this topic, e.g. here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg364020/?topicseen#msg364020), the OP marmard (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=9091) send all bugs to Rigol via Drieg (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=343) (Petr Šmíd) who owns the official Rigol distributor Silicon Electronics (http://silcon.cz) in the Czech Republic.
Drieg is also a member of this forum: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=343 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=343)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on February 24, 2014, 07:31:31 pm
I found, decoding is ok, the problem is the data display is shifted respect waveforms, more far from trigger event more shifted.
I think it is an cumulative error calculating the position of data to show.

Thanks, Luis.  That's good to know.  Too often, someone will show up here and loudly proclaim that something on the Rigol is broken or malfunctioning.  :scared:  But when they later find that it was really OK, they quietly disappear.  I'm glad you took the time to confirm that it does work, and to let us know about it.

As for the shifting, I suspect you are correct.  This isn't the first time someone has noticed a peculiar offset.  But after further testing, it seems to disappear, without any explanation.  This is the first time I've heard someone suggest a reason for why this may be happening, to varying degrees.  Distance between the trigger point and the display point may be the variable factor.  I don't have a DS2000 here to test with, but you anyone here with a DS2000 could explore the possible relationship by examining packets close to, and progressively farther from, the trigger point.

EDIT:  to emphasize that Luis isn't the only one who could explore this shift.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on February 25, 2014, 05:45:48 pm
Hello Mark_O.

Thanks for replay.

I would like to give more feedback in this topic, but usually im just little busy :) .

Best regards to all.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 25, 2014, 11:28:27 pm
Can this be a software thing or is it just the kinda washed out screen quality of the DS2000 series?
Intensity grading comparison of Rigols DS1104Z, DS2202,and Agilent DSOX3404 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf5QSr4zXHw#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on February 26, 2014, 01:32:48 am
Can this be a software thing or is it just the kinda washed out screen quality of the DS2000 series?

I believe the video makes the DS2000 screen look worse than it does by eye.  I haven't heard any serious complaints about it, and there are certainly enough people who who have them that we would have heard about it, if it sucked.  :)  So I wouldn't consider it a deal-breaker, by any stretch of the imagination.  It's good enough that there are far more important factors to base one's decision on.

I'm sure marmad will correct me if I'm FOS.   ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on February 26, 2014, 05:49:27 am
The DS2000 will look somewhat different when looking down toward it rather than looking upward at the start of the vid. (didn't watch it all).
Title: Probes RP3300 or RP3300A
Post by: Pinkus on March 02, 2014, 12:46:19 pm
As I do own both and want to sell one set: would you suggest to keep the RP3300 or the newer RP3300A probes?
Both are rated 300/350Mhz by Rigol, however I assume the fixed one is a bit better due to lower capacity, but these as just assumtions....  Did anybody make measurements regarding frequency, rise time etc. ?

I know the A-type is fixed to 1:10, but I very seldom need 1:1 and I would have two other probes for this if needed.

Thanks for your help
Title: DS2202A Lockup
Post by: rowifi on March 03, 2014, 02:41:25 pm
I have a new DS2202A - unadulterated, no licenses activated, updated with the latest offical Rigol firmware, days ago.
Was working ok until...
I was messing with the menu, actually looking for the FFT function and pressed a soft button to do with Math... ( It had options X Y Math with tick boxes) X was originally ticked but I was having problems clearing the menu ( It was saying something like 'must choose one') so I also ticked Math.
The Math box duly checked ok, but at some point moments later the scope locked up.

I've power cycled it 3 times now, I get one beep, a delay then two beeps a little later. The little dot is sitting on the 3rd from left square... and so it stays.

Am about to contact distributor / Rigol, but am now quite disappointed.

I've not yet read this thread to see if this is known about, just posted in haste and anger.

 

Title: Re: DS2202A Lockup
Post by: marmad on March 03, 2014, 02:55:59 pm
I was messing with the menu, actually looking for the FFT function and pressed a soft button to do with Math... ( It had options X Y Math with tick boxes) X was originally ticked but I was having problems clearing the menu ( It was saying something like 'must choose one') so I also ticked Math.
The Math box duly checked ok, but at some point moments later the scope locked up.
AFAIK, I don't have any menu or sub-menu on my DS2000 similar to what you're mentioning: in fact, I don't seem to have a single menu that even uses the word "Math" (see next post). The Math Menu (when you press the MATH button) is just a subset of features including FFT, Logic, simple A/B formulas, and advanced formulas using variables. So without better info, there is no way to try to replicate your problem.

That being said, if I was having the same problem as you, I would try reloading the firmware via the boot-loader (as mentioned at the bottom of this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)).
Title: Re: DS2202A Lockup
Post by: marmad on March 03, 2014, 03:02:22 pm
I was messing with the menu, actually looking for the FFT function and pressed a soft button to do with Math... ( It had options X Y Math with tick boxes) X was originally ticked but I was having problems clearing the menu ( It was saying something like 'must choose one') so I also ticked Math.
The Math box duly checked ok, but at some point moments later the scope locked up.
AFAIK, I don't have any menu or sub-menu on my DS2000 similar to what you're mentioning: in fact, I don't seem to have a single menu that even uses the word "Math". The Math Menu (when you press the MATH button) is just a subset of features including FFT, Logic, simple A/B formulas, and advanced formulas using variables. So without better info, there is no way to try to replicate your problem.

Hmm... perhaps you meant in the Measure Menu? Although it doesn't use X / Y (I can't imagine any menu that would), there you can select between CH1 / CH2 / MATH.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: rowifi on March 03, 2014, 03:06:48 pm
Hi
Yes - I think it was the Measure menu. Of course until I get the scope back up working I can't confirm - but I'm confident that you are correct.

Anyway - yes .. something I did when that menu was showing has locked it up.
I will try a re-boot - unless there's a 'hold down at power up' button that resets everything?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on March 03, 2014, 03:15:19 pm
Anyway - yes .. something I did when that menu was showing has locked it up.
I will try a re-boot - unless there's a 'hold down at power up' button that resets everything?

Well, as mentioned in the linked post, you could try booting up with left-menu F6 pressed in, but it sounds to me like you need to re-install the FW. When I was testing the new FW (before using F6 on the first-boot), the same thing happened to me - the scope locked up and refused to boot until I re-installed the FW.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: rowifi on March 03, 2014, 03:23:31 pm
Back in business - re-installed and F6 pressed ( repeatedly ) as per Rigol instructions.
Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on March 06, 2014, 09:41:53 pm
I've done a small video with DS2072A working on my LED controller project.
RGB-?????????? LEDtuner: ??????? ??????????? MIBAM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX1V3ncurDw#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Ivan7enych on March 07, 2014, 08:10:51 am
Hello,

I've bought the Rigol 2072A as a second oscilloscope to my old Tek TDS744A (4 chanels, 500MHz), and I've compared some features of both oscilloscopes.

1. I've linked together 2 oscilloscopes (Trig Out from 2072A to Tek external Trig input) (it can be useful to observe the same event on both screens), and connected inputs of both oscilloscopes to the signal gen output (Rigol DG4062, pure sine 50MHz). I've seen stable pure sine on 2072a, and jumping signal on Tek (see picture). When I link in opposite (Trig Out from Tek to external Trig input of 2072a), I've seen stable picture on both oscilloscopes.

It seems, that Trig Out of 2072a is not hardware, but a kind of software (from FPGA logic) and it is suitable for low frequencies only, not higher than 1MHz I think.

2. I've tested rise time on the same test signal (Tek probe signal, I don't know exactly it's rise time). Ground has been connected as close as possible to the tip of the probe (1-2cm length) to make signal as pure as possible.
1 - Tek 1GHz Active probe
2 - 2072a (unloked to 300MHz)
3 - 2072a with 100MHz band limit option

500MHz and 300MHz really makes the difference, but I like it, fine picture, almost no overshoot on rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Ivan7enych on March 07, 2014, 09:05:43 am
3. FFT math on the Rigol looks very disappointing to me, very slow user interface (slower than my old Tek), low resolution (only 2048 points from the record), no averaging options at all (both scalar and vector averaging). Tek TDS744 with it's old slow user interface in that terms is a much better choice.

4. protocol decoding and triggering (the main feature I missed in Tek) - triggering works fast, but decoding makes the oscilloscope very slow, may be 2 frames per second. UI of triggering is strange, for example I want to see RS232 data as ASCI chars, I see interesting place to me, and want to trigger on specific letter 'D' for example. For that purpose I need to find somewhere ASCI codes table and find the number of that letter.  |O Just because triggering UI works with numbers only, no letters, no HEX. :-//

I've found picture with another example, I2C decoding shows hex values, triggering works with dec values only.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Ivan7enych on March 07, 2014, 09:31:33 am
5. Intensity grading - very nice feature, but sometimes it works, sometimes doesn't and I don't know the all reasons of that.
Here is 50Mhz AM modulated sine, one picture is very nice, another shows moire artifacts. Changing number of recorded points sometimes turns on and off the intensity grading.
And a comparison pictures for the same signal from Tek, one with instavu option (old type of intensity grading), another with peak detect mode.

That's all from me for now. I hope it will be helpful for somebody to see good and bad points of that oscilloscope.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on March 08, 2014, 05:23:46 am
UI of triggering is strange, for example I want to see RS232 data as ASCI chars, I see interesting place to me, and want to trigger on specific letter 'D' for example. For that purpose I need to find somewhere ASCI codes table and find the number of that letter.  |O

Yes, that's definitely a PITA.

Quote
Just because triggering UI works with numbers only, no letters, no HEX. :-//

I've found picture with another example, I2C decoding shows hex values, triggering works with dec values only.

Thanks for the screenshot on that.  At first I was confused, but then I realized that while Rigol provides several different output formats, only one input format is available (decimal numerics).  Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: rowifi on March 13, 2014, 01:36:35 pm
My DS2202A has locked up again..
This time I was messing with the measurement buttons and I believe it was the 'STATS' button that I pressed. The scope then goes unresponsive.

Basically I had ALL those yellow measurement readings on the screen and I was looking for a button to kill them. I could turn them all off , but haven't yet seen how to change them individually.
Whatever - the scope should not lock up, and worst - a power cycle does not fix it...
It sits there .. dead showing the Rigol logo.  Scope is virtually new - unadulterated.
In all it seems a nice scope  - but I'm going to get bored if I keep having to reflash the firmware every so often!

**UPDATE**  Power cycle with 6th Grey button being repeated pressed has unlocked it...  back in business.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bronson on March 13, 2014, 04:41:37 pm
Twice??  That sounds like a broken scope.  I'd file a support request.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: rowifi on March 14, 2014, 11:57:53 am
Yes - done that, but since it happened both times since after I did a firmware upgrade, and only this timerecovered the scope using the '6th grey button' ( set defaults), I'm going to assume it was something to do with that ( for now)... ...

oh oh.... Just been trying it.. pressing the Statistic button has locked it up again.
Mode: Just channel 1 display ON.  No Input signal. Display All ON.  From a power up having only been messing with the measure functions.

I don't expect a power cycle to clear it alone....

Nope, just 3 beeps and then stuck.

Booting while pressing  grey  button no 6 fixes it.

I can't seem to replicate it... but so far each lockup has been related to the Display All , All Measure and Statistic buttons.

Edit:

Now I can repeat it ..

Power up:

Press 6th left hand grey button once  ( to activate menu ) press again to select 'width'.
Press 7th left hand grey button to activate 'duty'

Press Measure

Check vertical channel 1 operates by adjusting knob

Press 'Statistic'

Check vertical channel 1 now doesn't operate. Scope is locked up and needs a reset to default to operate again.
 

 




Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: hibone on March 14, 2014, 05:51:38 pm
I've bought the Rigol 2072A-S. I was looking for the original firmware but the one in the first page is not available anymore.

Is it possible to update the page with a new link?

Thanks you...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on March 15, 2014, 12:01:37 am
Some guy posted (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-upgrade-for-rigol-ds2000-scopes/msg405737/#msg405737) that there is a version 00.03 firmware from Rigol.  He did not share with us though :( 

Anyone else hear about a new 00.03 firmware for DS2000/DS2000A series?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on March 15, 2014, 12:03:39 am
Someone sent it to me (might be the same guy) by e-mail. I put it up on my website, but I was just assuming it was actually the existing version from February, so the filename is wrong if it is in fact a new version. I won't be able to try it for a few days, but the file is:

http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-02_01_00_03.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-02_01_00_03.7z)

If anyone else wants to give it a stab. Let me know if I should rename it...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on March 15, 2014, 12:12:28 am
Someone sent it to me (might be the same guy) by e-mail. I put it up on my website .... the file is:

http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-03_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-03_00_00_00.7z)

Thanks!  The file is much larger than previous .GEL files.

Edit: Updated link
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NYG on March 15, 2014, 03:08:50 am
Someone sent it to me (might be the same guy) by e-mail. I put it up on my website, but I was just assuming it was actually the existing version from February, so the filename is wrong if it is in fact a new version. I won't be able to try it for a few days, but the file is:

http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-02_01_00_03.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-02_01_00_03.7z)

If anyone else wants to give it a stab. Let me know if I should rename it...

Thanks!  The compressed filename is indeed wrong, but the .GEL binary file has ASCII numbers 00.03.00.00.00 at the beginning. 

The file is much larger than previous .GEL files.

Well, the glass of whiskey in my hand kept telling me to load the new firmware, so I did.

BTW is there any difference upgrading by booting and hitting help a couple of times with the image on the USB drive, or just booting normally, sticking the drive in and following the upgrade prompts? I just followed the on screen prompts when it was fully booted this time around.

My DS2072A reads:

Model: DS2302A
Software Version: 00.03.00
Hardware Version: 2.0

All options still showing installed as "Official Version"

Don't know what's changed or been fixed, but that's what I can see for now.

I may try downgrading just to see what happens.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on March 15, 2014, 10:25:02 am
I renamed the file. New link:

http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-03_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-03_00_00_00.7z)

If anyone has the actual 00.02.01.00.03 files I'd appreciate a copy to put up. The rapidshare links upthread are all broken for me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on March 15, 2014, 02:17:50 pm
I renamed the file. New link:

http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-03_00_00_00.7z (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-03_00_00_00.7z)

If anyone has the actual 00.02.01.00.03 files I'd appreciate a copy to put up. The rapidshare links upthread are all broken for me.
I've fixed the FW links in the second post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684) (moved all the files from rapidshare to my own server) and added the latest v.03 to the list.  I haven't heard anything about this latest version, but I'm currently travelling and away from the DSO, so no chance to experiment with it for awhile.

Somebody else might experiment and see if Rigol has dealt with any of the bugs listed in the above-linked post.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on March 15, 2014, 04:24:52 pm
FW 00.03.00 ??
Tested Math Log() function,  working but the DSO locks up!
   See log of a sawtooth with a bit of Negative values;    Note log(-negative) = 0
   DSO display and controls Lock up when you try to edit expression 'Off'
   but USB still reports the display with a SCPI command

It is looking like this is a Beta Version
NO fix of Bugs 17,18..

Back to FW#00.02.01.00.03
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 22, 2014, 12:06:42 am
Sometimes the intensity stays tha same even if you try to adjust it. Probably someone has noticed it here. This issue appears at certain memory length settings, I think.
Rigol DS2000 Intensity odd behaviour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh0xJlMVExY#)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on March 22, 2014, 05:34:51 am
Sometimes the intensity stays tha same even if you try to adjust it. Probably someone has noticed it here. This issue appears at certain memory length settings, I think.
Hi Hydrawerk
    I did some testing and noted that in the Video there was recording frames with the Persistence not set to Min.
when in Min persistence , and Frames are recorded and the Rigol will Play back the frames at a Fix normal visible intensity (about same as Infinite persistence brightness) 
But when the persistence is not set to Min. the Frames are recorded at that intensity setting and you cannot adjust the playback intensity.
  when the intensity is set low  during record, you can Barely  see the waveform
and
  when the intensity is set High during record, you can Clearly see the waveform

What does persistence mean if recording frames? ( could be segmented frames)

Shown below are 4 Displays:  7% intensity, 50% intensity, 100% intensity,  0% intensity but Min. Persistence

I hope that helps show what happens
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pehtoori on March 23, 2014, 09:24:17 pm
Sometimes the intensity stays tha same even if you try to adjust it. Probably someone has noticed it here. This issue appears at certain memory length settings, I think.
Rigol DS2000 Intensity odd behaviour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh0xJlMVExY#)

Close the menu and you can adjust intensity. Should read the manual carefully! :-DD
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 23, 2014, 09:37:12 pm
OK, I should have read the manual...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on April 03, 2014, 09:21:33 pm
My Wave Intensity always goes to 50% no matter what I attempt to set it to.  Is this the same issue as in the previous few posts?  Brightness adjusts the grid intensity and works ok.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on April 04, 2014, 12:14:01 am
My Wave Intensity always goes to 50% no matter what I attempt to set it to.  Is this the same issue as in the previous few posts?  Brightness adjusts the grid intensity and works ok.

Pushing down on the intensity adjustment knob sets the intensity to 50% (it's a shortcut).
Don't push it down after adjusting the intensity.  Just stop turning the knob and the intensity will lock to your setting after a second or so.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on April 04, 2014, 01:31:40 am

Pushing down on the intensity adjustment knob sets the intensity to 50% (it's a shortcut).
Don't push it down after adjusting the intensity.  Just stop turning the knob and the intensity will lock to your setting after a second or so.
OK, I didn't know that.  I did read the "waveform intensity" part of the book.  So now, the intensity setting stays where I set it, but it doesn't change the brightness of the waveform.  Am I interpreting what the "waveform" is?  I think it's the yellow and blue channel 1/channel 2 traces.  I upgraded to 00.02.01.00.03 this morning.  I "think" the intensity used to work ok, but my memory is not to be trusted, either.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on April 04, 2014, 04:17:44 am

Pushing down on the intensity adjustment knob sets the intensity to 50% (it's a shortcut).
Don't push it down after adjusting the intensity.  Just stop turning the knob and the intensity will lock to your setting after a second or so.
OK, I didn't know that.  I did read the "waveform intensity" part of the book.  So now, the intensity setting stays where I set it, but it doesn't change the brightness of the waveform.  Am I interpreting what the "waveform" is?  I think it's the yellow and blue channel 1/channel 2 traces.  I upgraded to 00.02.01.00.03 this morning.  I "think" the intensity used to work ok, but my memory is not to be trusted, either.

Yes, the waveform intensity control is the brightness of the traces.
The range of brightness is not very dramatic.  Try looking at the rise/fall transitions of the calibration waveform as you adjust the intensity.  You should see the brightness change in them
.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on April 04, 2014, 06:21:00 am
May be this already mentioned somewhere, but I just noticed it: MSO version of DS2000A series is coming!

Maybe that's what the big v00.03 firmware update and version number jump is about?!

See http://www.rigol.com/ (http://www.rigol.com/) and select the Chinese localization.

(http://www.rigol.com/upload/page/1/slide_12091_1395971711_b8bda_c32b8.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on April 04, 2014, 08:59:04 am
Are there any rumours or confirmations about upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA?
Will the LA have 8 channels or 16 channels? When is it expected? Details on launch date and model numbers? Pictures?
My speculations:
  - Upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA? Yes, no doubt!
  - Model numbers: DS2072AD, DS2102AD, DS2202AD and DS2302AD.
  - LA 8 Channels at 1GSPS.
  - Launch in the EU, 6 months after it is launched in China.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-series-model-designation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-series-model-designation/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/msg270640/#msg270640 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/msg270640/#msg270640)
Very good news.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on April 04, 2014, 09:17:08 am
Are there any rumours or confirmations about upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA?
Will the LA have 8 channels or 16 channels? When is it expected? Details on launch date and model numbers? Pictures?
My speculations:
  - Upcoming DS2000 series with built-in LA? Yes, no doubt!
  - Model numbers: DS2072AD, DS2102AD, DS2202AD and DS2302AD.
  - LA 8 Channels at 1GSPS.
  - Launch in the EU, 6 months after it is launched in China.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-series-model-designation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-series-model-designation/)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/msg270640/#msg270640 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds2000-hardware-version-2-0/msg270640/#msg270640)
Very good news.  :-+

Good prediction!  Seems to be 16 channel LA; I'm not sure what the sample rates are though.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on April 04, 2014, 08:41:46 pm
Yes, the waveform intensity control is the brightness of the traces.
The range of brightness is not very dramatic.  Try looking at the rise/fall transitions of the calibration waveform as you adjust the intensity.  You should see the brightness change in them.
You are 100% correct.  When looking at the square wave, brightness has a good effect on the rise/fall lines, and does close to zilch for the horizontal lines.  I finally found the button-push 50% brightness setting in the manual section for the multi-function knob.  So if you read and remember the whole manual, the info is there.  If you use it as a single-subject reference, you'll never find how the knob push sets the brightness.  Thanks, from a part-time user who doesn't remember all the details.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 05, 2014, 02:23:19 am
May be this already mentioned somewhere, but I just noticed it: MSO version of DS2000A series is coming!

That just went public recently.  I don't think it's been mentioned here yet.  Good catch!   :-+

Quote
Maybe that's what the big v00.03 firmware update and version number jump is about?!

Yes, there were significant changes to the FW (and substantial increases in size) to incorporate the new LA functionality, AND all the new SCPI commands supporting it.

They obviously focused on those enhancements, and de-prioritized correcting known bugs on the analog side (for now).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 05, 2014, 11:33:21 am
Limits on Decoding RS232:
    After reading about errors using RS232 on the MSO4000 blog,  I did some testing,  Here is a test of decoding  a Data stream at 115.2Kb/s  using a display scan rate of 20ms/div, and 56 Mpts.

Displays:
  
EDIT:    This Bug is Fixed in Latest Firmware 00.03.00.01.03
1, Shows  setup for Decoding RS232

  2, Shows  that error occurs at scan rate of 20.2 ms/div  ,
     where a start bit is missed in the decoding,
     but because this is a repetitive data pattern the decode is the same
     but the Data would be corrupted o the 1st error.

  3, Shows  a display of  the Event table, no errors for this pattern

  4   Show the 2nd frame of a recording ,
      Important to note that it takes about 1 second to display the input trace ;
      and it takes about 6 seconds to display the Decoded data of the next frame

Can anyone explain why  this limit happens at this point  and with the missing a byte on decoding?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 05, 2014, 06:38:38 pm
Hi Teneyes,

give it a try..., 200 Mega samples per sec in 56 Mega points, gives memory full in about 250 milli sec
if you have 50 Mega samples per sec in 56 mega Points, gives memory full in about 1 second.

Then it will stop sampling i think , for a moment, to do other things like decoding or arrange things in the software
to show samples on screen, it has to do something with the gathered information. And does need the sampled memory for that.

I dont think it will continuous fills the memory non stop, and never stop, there will be some dead time...?
to do things i mentioned above. Maybe i am wrong, but i dont think the DSO is a real time non stop sampling device.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on April 06, 2014, 07:18:10 am
Just FYI to the group: way back I posted I had the heat-sink clip fall out (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg273084/#msg273084).  I just received my DS2072 back from Rigol following repair (RMA service).  The repair took 1 week (and an additional 1 week for shipping to/from Rigol).

The warranty seal was removed and not replaced.

The firmware was updated to latest 00.03.00.00.00 (it had 00.02 installed when I sent it in), which is just further confirmation that 00.03 is the latest firmware for DS2000(A) series (and is listed on Rigol's firmware request webpage).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 06, 2014, 07:59:36 am
I dont think it will continuous fills the memory non stop, and never stop, there will be some dead time...?
to do things i mentioned above. Maybe i am wrong, but i dont think the DSO is a real time non stop sampling device.
Hi Wim.
   Yes , Marmad has often explained about sample Aquistion and long Dead times.
I was wondering why after the data was collected correctly,(good waveform traces) why does the decoding miss a start edge and only start decoding on the next stop/start bit transition?
Is there some interrupt routine corrupting pointers into the data where the decode function is analyzing the data stream for displaying ??
when I play back large data traces in Zoom mode I can see the yellow traces appear on the display about 3 sec. before the green Decoded characters are displayed.
Thanks Wim.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 06, 2014, 08:29:26 am
Trigger Holdoff Is NOT on Ds2000 only on DS4000


So here's the need for  Holdoff.
It occurs with and number of pulses that stop and burst again.
below I show 8 pulse that  reoccur in bursts
 (short stop time between bursts)
Now I varied the repeat burst period.
at a burst Period of 7ms the trigger is Ok
at a burst Period of 8ms the trigger is Lost and bad jitter
at a burst Period of 9ms the trigger is Ok
1Gsa/s
500us/div
7Mpts

For 8 pulses the Error (trigger jitter) also occurs at burst periods of 12ms and 24ms
The period where the error occurs changes if the number of pulses change.

There is no jitter using burst envelope sync pulse on chan. 2 to trigger

Can anyone Confirm? 

EDIT  Pix #5  , with Trigger out on CH2,  trigger out is Correct.  WTF??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: seronday on April 06, 2014, 11:12:08 am
Teneyes,
Try adjusting the trigger Holdoff time to around 3 - 4 mS.
It looks like the trigger circuit has re-armed and is triggering on the next pulse that it sees.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 06, 2014, 05:58:12 pm
Teneyes,
Try adjusting the trigger Holdoff time to around 3 - 4 mS.
It looks like the trigger circuit has re-armed and is triggering on the next pulse that it sees.

i think the same, it triggers on the first on going pulse.

I did the same test, and indeed, it triggers on the fist pulse it finds, i think thats is correct
Played around with the delay, and that worked for me.., then it triggers oke
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 06, 2014, 06:47:38 pm
Teneyes,
Try adjusting the trigger Holdoff time to around 3 - 4 mS.
It looks like the trigger circuit has re-armed and is triggering on the next pulse that it sees.

i think the same, it triggers on the first on going pulse.

I did the same test, and indeed, it triggers on the fist pulse it finds, i think thats is correct
Played around with the delay, and that worked for me.., then it triggers oke
Good Point.
There is NO Trigger Holdoff on a RS232 Trigger, see Pics   :-//

See Discuss on DS4000 Blog here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg419890/#msg419890)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 06, 2014, 06:50:08 pm
Can anyone Confirm that the DS2000 does NOT decode when recording frames?
see gif
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 06, 2014, 08:18:28 pm
Can anyone Confirm that the DS2000 does NOT decode when recording frames?

Hi Len,

It does not decode recorded frames. I thought this was reported and confirmed here awhile ago when first reported on one of the UltraVision models.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 06:49:51 am
Hi Len,
It does not decode recorded frames. I thought this was reported and confirmed here awhile ago when first reported on one of the UltraVision models.
HI Mark
It is not on your Bug list (post 3) and at first  I was thinking it was important. but as I was testing maybe the best way to monitor a serial data stream is with a long buffer(using best Mem depth), , then analyze by using the zoom feature , where the decoding does work.  and to record frames , then zoom and scan the Data.  I guess the DSO is only a preliminary device for Serial Data debugging. I am not sure when data could be missed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 07, 2014, 09:08:11 am
It does not decode recorded frames. I thought this was reported and confirmed here awhile ago when first reported on one of the UltraVision models.

Mark, did you miss this demonstration (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg419795/#msg419795), where teneyes showed it working on a DS2000?  (Post capture, not real-time.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 03:36:19 pm
A difference between the DS2000 and DS4000

This gives me  "RS232 Trigger Holdoff Envy" 

From the User's guide:
'The adjustable range of holdoff time is from 100 ns to 10 s. Note that trigger holdoff is not available for Nth edge trigger, video trigger, RS232 trigger, I2C trigger, SPI trigger and USB trigger.'
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 07, 2014, 04:04:58 pm
Mark, did you miss this demonstration (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg419795/#msg419795), where teneyes showed it working on a DS2000?  (Post capture, not real-time.)
I'm currently travelling so I haven't been following the threads closely, but I've tried decoding on segments before (using I2C) and it didn't work.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 06:17:44 pm
It does not decode recorded frames. I thought this was reported and confirmed here awhile ago when first reported on one of the UltraVision models.
Mark, did you miss this demonstration (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/msg419795/#msg419795), where teneyes showed it working on a DS2000?  (Post capture, not real-time.)
Hi Folks ,  I tried to re test the decoding of Frames in record mode referenced above
But I could Not   :-//    :-//
Then  Breakfast

And guess what ,   I remembered  a change I had made

This Feature is only in latest FW 00.03.00.00   :-+ , I think Rigol is smirking at me  ;D



Below are displays of Frames, recording 140 bytes burst every 3 seconds 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 07, 2014, 08:03:33 pm
This Feature is only in latest FW 00.03.00.00   :-+ , I think Rigol is smirking at me  ;D

Great to hear!! ;D  I've been on the road since the latest FW release, so I haven't had a chance to test it at all.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 07, 2014, 09:07:43 pm
Here I am checking  the recording & decoding of 2 Channels RS232
      230byte bursts at 10sec on Ch1,   Ch2 continuous
Note:  The decoding of a new frame in playback takes about 2 seconds at this setup     
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 08, 2014, 01:36:15 am
Data Decoding Limit  ( RS232 test)

it appears that to Decode without  Errors, at least 28 Pts must be allocated for Each 'BIT' of data or else the Decode will miss a byte.

To test I used:
            2ms/div
            70Kpts/display
            89.2Kb.s   all OK   = 28.027 Pts/bit
            89.4Kb/s   Errors occuring
See Pics
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 08, 2014, 07:52:44 am
EDIT:    Max=900k in Latest Firmware 00.03.00.01.03
A High Speed Test of  RS232 Data Recording & decoding
 I used:
          892Kb/s      (maximum trigger setting is 900000)
          140Kpts/display
          475 Byte Block
          396 us/div
          3.96 us/div  Zoom

          Recorded 508  Frames

  For a Total of  241300  Bytes recorded
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2014, 09:19:41 am
Here I am checking  the recording & decoding of 2 Channels RS232
      230byte bursts at 10sec on Ch1,   Ch2 continuous
Note:  The decoding of a new frame in playback takes about 2 seconds at this setup   

I just wanted to say "thanks" for all the testing, and posting of your screen shots.  Very helpful.   :clap:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2014, 09:39:34 am
A High Speed Test of  RS232 Data Recording & decoding
 I used:
...
          475 Byte Block
...
          Recorded 508  Frames

  For a Total of  241300  Bytes recorded

Yes, and the key point being that the same results would have been obtained if those 508 frames had gaps of seconds or minutes or hours between them, regardless of the inter-frame latencies.  (Plus, you could turn on the ClockTag, and see the date/time stamp for each frame.)

That's the power of segmented captures.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2014, 09:54:30 am
Data Decoding Limit  ( RS232 test)

it appears that to Decode without  Errors, at least 28 Pts must be allocated for Each 'BIT' of data or else the Decode will miss a byte.

To test I used:
            2ms/div
            70Kpts/display
            89.2Kb.s   all OK   = 28.027 Pts/bit
            89.4Kb/s   Errors occuring
See Pics

I'm not so sure about that.   It's not decoding from those 28 samples (or less) per bit cell.  It's decoding from what's on the screen.  When you zoom in too far (or equivalently, increase your bit stream and thereby compress what's on-screen), then decodes will fail.

In your second test at 89.4Kb/s, if you had just zoomed out a bit from the 100us/div you were at, then it would have had more bits to work with, and started "working" again.  Even though the sample Pts/dataBit hadn't changed at all.

I think.  ;D

So the real conclusion would be that with 10-bit RS232 bytes (at 1 Start, 8 Data, and 1 Stop each), the 700 points on-screen can support up to 12 bytes at once, but not 13.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 08, 2014, 03:13:37 pm
In your second test at 89.4Kb/s, if you had just zoomed out a bit from the 100us/div you were at, then it would have had more bits to work with, and started "working" again.  Even though the sample Pts/dataBit hadn't changed at all.
I think.  ;D
EDIT:    This Bug is Fixed in Latest Firmware 00.03.00.01.03
Note last displays shows  90KBytes/s= 900,000b/s

 Just to make it Clear to all; Zooming has no effect if there are Decoding errors. The decoding is done on the full un-Zoomed data.  Below I show 3 displays where the errors still exists. Note you can see the error gaps

In order to make full used of the 140KPts I fill the full display with DATA  (by increasing byte count in the frame/segments or reducing the time of the display (<timebase)   

Also Note that  if there are errors in non- Record mode there will be errors in the recorded frame ( same recorded points are used, Not the display data)

PS  I captured all 3 frames into eevblog from the DSO in 150 seconds , using RUU
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 08, 2014, 06:34:44 pm
..the key point being that the same results would have been obtained if those 508 frames had gaps of seconds or minutes or hours between them, regardless of the inter-frame latencies.  (Plus, you could turn on the ClockTag, and see the date/time stamp for each frame.)
That's the power of segmented captures.
I agree and here is an example ( thanks for pointing out TimeTag)
high speed data (1Mb/s), short bursts(100us) , with recording that could record for 5.5 Days
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 08, 2014, 08:08:46 pm
With more and more people stating and receiving the New FW 00.03.00.00, I thinking it would good to report new Bugs here.  Marmad has kept a good list on the 3rd post of this Blog.  Altough Marmad usually confirms all bugs himself , I think it would be helpful for a few others to confirm any reports.  Also if any Fixs to an existing bug is a complete fixed.

These are Bugs I have found:

     #03__01   The Clear Button does not work.
              EDIT:    Fixed in Firmware 00.03.00.01.03

     #03__02   The decode display does not clear when decode is turned off
              EDIT:    Fixed in Firmware 00.03.00.01.03

     #03__03   Once the lg(CH1) advance Math function is applied you can Edit the function;
                   If the Expression button is press the DSO hangs. and if in start Last System. the
                   attempt to change the expression , will hang the DSO!!! :--   :--
              EDIT:    Fixed in Firmware 00.03.00.01.03


     #03__04   The Set Counter Menu has display Error (unnecessary scrolling,small )  see Pics
                   This occurs when system 'System'-'Power On' - is set to 'Last' and the trigger is
                   NOT set to EDGE trigger.
                   Power cycle after PULSE trigger causes 3 items in Menu ,most others 2 items set in Menu
                   Auto Setup Button resets trigger to Edge  and all 4 Menu Items??? (CH1,Ch2,Ext,Off)
              EDIT:    Not Fixed in Firmware 00.03.00.01.03

If anyone ventures onto Fw 00.03.00.00, please help to confirm any of these.

Edit 1  Added more info on Bug #03__04
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 09, 2014, 05:02:13 am
Just to make it Clear to all;

Good idea.  Make it clear to all, and not just me.  ;)

Quote
Zooming has no effect if there are Decoding errors. The decoding is done on the full un-Zoomed data.

Thanks for showing it's possible to zoom in beyond the point where decoded data is showable, yet still properly detect and show the byte boundaries.

However, that doesn't imply that decoding is done on the raw data, unzoomed or otherwise.  Everything I've ever seen or read indicates decoding is done from the screen display data.  And it's actually unnecessary to go beyond that.  If you consider how many decoded chars you can get on the screen at once (about a dozen), or even the collapsed <...> bytes (about twice that), it's still well within what would be expected when working from the 700 display samples (down to 240 bit-cells, in that case).

Quote
Below I show 3 displays where the errors still exists. Note you can see the error gaps

Yes, I can.  Thanks!  I find it quite interesting that, in spite of your hypothesis that whenever the samples/bitCell is <28, it fails, in fact it is still working, most of the time (82%).  And look at the pattern...  2 correct, 1 skipped, 3 correct, 1 skipped.  Repeat.  This suggests that it's phasing in and out, or something similar. The ones it missed didn't have any fewer samples/bit than the ones it handled properly!

I also like your grabs, which demonstrate that the Rigol displays the contents adaptively.  "Data: 0xNN", to "D:0xNN", to just "0xNN", to <...>.

Quote
Also Note that  if there are errors in non- Record mode there will be errors in the recorded frame ( same recorded points are used, Not the display data)

Well of course if there are any errors at any point in the acquisition process, there will be errors in Recorded frames.  However, A implies B doesn't mean the converse is also true.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kff on April 09, 2014, 07:26:45 am
Is anyone else seeing a screen flicker in their ds2072a? It is especially noticeable on grays, and is probably caused by backlight leds. I would estimate the frequency at 40-60 hz. I searched here and on Google and surprisingly didn't find any posts mention this. Did I get a bad unit, or are you all less picky than I am? The scope is not modified in any way.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 09, 2014, 03:53:54 pm
I find it quite interesting that, in spite of your hypothesis that whenever the samples/bitCell is <28, it fails, in fact it is still working, most of the time (82%).  And look at the pattern...  2 correct, 1 skipped, 3 correct, 1 skipped.  Repeat.  This suggests that it's phasing in and out, or something similar. The ones it missed didn't have any fewer samples/bit than the ones it handled properly!
I was wrong
I did more tests and I think I can show the limit for samples per bit for good decoding
The setup:
      14K Pts
      500us/div
      2MSa/sec
      400Kb/s , 500Kb/s , 666Kb/s , 900Kb/s
See Displays  for:
             5 Samples per Data Bit
             4 Samples per Data Bit
             3 Samples per Data Bit
             2 Samples per Data Bit
                A quirky Display
My Conclusion, The requirement for good decoding is 4 samples per Bit (RS232)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on April 10, 2014, 06:56:59 am
Is anyone else seeing a screen flicker in their ds2072a? It is especially noticeable on grays, and is probably caused by backlight leds. I would estimate the frequency at 40-60 hz. I searched here and on Google and surprisingly didn't find any posts mention this. Did I get a bad unit, or are you all less picky than I am? The scope is not modified in any way.
I noticed it a little when you are looking down toward the screen maybe 60 deg off axis but not when looking straight on. Mostly when the menus were showing and I *think* just after switch-on.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 11, 2014, 01:53:56 pm
I find it quite interesting that, in spite of your hypothesis that whenever the samples/bitCell is <28,...
I was wrong
I did more tests and I think I can show the limit for samples per bit for good decoding
...
My Conclusion, The requirement for good decoding is 4 samples per Bit (RS232)

Nicely done.  I concur that 4 samples/bit is the magic number here (and not 28).   :-+ 

(Though it may not specifically be a requirement for those 4 samples, but rather that anything less will result in the start/end phase of a bit-cell falling out of sync tolerance.)

Think about what that implies for acquiring comms-type data in segments, in RecordMode!  Properly adjusted, the duration and size can be quite amazing.  At just 4 samples/bit, that's 7x(!) as long as you originally thought possible.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 11, 2014, 03:45:33 pm
Think about what '4 Sample points/Data Bit' implies for acquiring comms-type data in segments, in RecordMode!  Properly adjusted, the duration and size can be quite amazing.  At just 4 samples/bit, that's 7x(!) as long as you originally thought possible.
Yes  the recorded frame below of a 270 byte/frame and at 8128 frames  shows that 2,194,560 Bytes of data were recorded.
BUT, I adjusted the speed and block size to maximize the capacity of the DSO.
IRL, with the DSO setting a Fixed sample rate for the Timebase and Memory depth selected there will be limitations.

Note: In my test I found 5 samples/bit better as there was missed start bit errors with just 4 samples

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 11, 2014, 10:01:20 pm
EDIT:    This Bug is Fixed in Latest Firmware 00.03.00.01.03

Here's an Obscure Bug.   It is an ERROR in the displaying of Decoded RS232 Data. under certain conditions  .

The Basic set-up is:
        RS232 Data Triggering on 'Start bit' for 115.2Kb/s
        RS232 DATA Decoding   for 115.2Kb/s
        DSO set for normal Triggering
        DSO set zoom down to 5us/div in Zoom window
        Memory Depth   at   14kPts  ,  140Kpoints
        Timebase settings of 500us  to 10ms

        Data Block set to 10 Bytes burst of Hex '55'
        ( 2 second repeats not significant)
        data pattern  is START (1), 0101 0101 ,  Stop (0)

Below I show a series of Displays, and the descriptions are:
#1  Mem=140K,500us/div,Display of Decoded Data is positioned after Start Bit,  3 Bytes OK
#2  Mem=140K,500us/div,Display of Decoded Data is positioned after Start Bit,  Position  OK
#3  Mem=140K, 1ms/div ,Display of Decoded Data is positioned after Start Bit,  Position  OK
#4  Mem=140K, 2ms/div ,Display of Decoded Data is positioned after Start Bit,  Position  OK
#5  Mem=140K, 5ms/div ,Display of Decoded Data is positioned after Start Bit,  Position  OK
 
#6  Mem=1.4M,500us/div,Display of Decoded Data is positioned near Start Bit,    Position Shifted
#7  Mem=1.4M, 1ms/div ,Display of Decoded Data is positioned near Start Bit,   Position Shifted
#8  Mem=1.4M, 5ms/div ,Display of Decoded Data is positioned before Start Bit, Position Shifted
#9  Mem=1.4M,10ms/div ,Display of Decoded Data is positioned before Start Bit,Position Shifted

#10 Mem= 14M,10ms/div, Display of Decoded Data is positioned after Start Bit,  Position  OK


The ERROR seems to occur only In Zoom window with a Memory depth of 1.4MB and the shift increases as the Timebase is Longer 
     

The decoding is correct , it is just the Position on the Display is NOT sync'd to the corresponding waveform
NOTE:  in both firmware  00.02.01.00.03 and   00.03.00.00.00
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 11, 2014, 10:49:26 pm
EDIT:    This Bug is Fixed in Latest Firmware 00.03.00.01.03
The shifting of Decoded Data at 1.4MPts also occurs when a Data Trigger is used.
Note: the Displaying of the Triggering DATA Byte is positoned at the trigger pointer (orange) is when the Data byte is completely detected , at halfway point of the Last Bit in the Data Byte.  For 1.4MPts in is shifted earlier 1.5 bits
Trigger point = x'55' = Binary '85' ,  disappointed that if display is in Hex that the data trigger is not also in Hex

See Displays:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 12, 2014, 11:15:46 pm
EDIT:    This Bug is Fixed in Latest Firmware 00.03.00.01.03
After show the shifting of data Bug in previous post , WIM13 referred me to a Decoding BUG at long timebase settings (>10ms/div).
I did some testing , using 56MPts.

Here are displays showing good decoding of long 3000 Bytes data Blocks at 20ms/div using 115200b/s decoding.
All the Decoding is Perfect from first Byte to Last. 
The series of displays are with varying Bit Patterns:  x55, xFF, xF0, and x00.
And Zoomed in to 5.050us/div  , (one byte)
Check them out.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 12, 2014, 11:37:01 pm
EDIT:    This Bug is Fixed in Latest Firmware 00.03.00.01.03
The Big Problem with the Perfect displays in my last Post was that the input was at 112000 b/s NOT 115200

Notice the Delay from the trigger to the end of last byte is 267.85 ms
Perfect for  a data rate of 112000 b/s
Bit Rate(b/s)   Bit Period (ms)   Byte period (ms)   Total Block Period (ms)
  112000            0.008929               0.08929                     267.8571

FOR 57.6Kb/s    56Kb/s  shows perfect decoding

I sure wish Rigol checked their Firmware !!!  (00.03.00.00)
I hope this is NOT crippling of the DS2000 DSO, but I think this is on the DS4000 series also.

I'm not doing so well at the 50ms/div timebase ,
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 13, 2014, 01:34:09 pm
In my post of 25 dec 2013, already noticed that there as more noise on the FW 00.02 version, with two channels enabled.
Not with 1 channel enabled, then the signal is clean.

so i tested version FW 00.03 but still the noise is there.
Test signal is 100 Mhz 0 dB, on other scoop it is a steady clean signal. ( also on FW 00.01.01, or on one channel ) )

In a later post there was stated that it has to do with the shading.
But if you look at the RMS values they also changes a lot, difference between one channel and two channel enabled.

the best version was and is still 00.01.01, gives the best result.

See pictures below, test1 is FW 00.01.01, test2 is FW 00.02, and test3 is FW 00.03
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 13, 2014, 03:53:31 pm
Implementation of FFT, differenses between DS2000 and DS1000z, most
things works the same on these two DSO.

i had the possibility the see the FFT on a DS1000z, most things are the same
on a DS2000 and a DS1000z.

But on the DS1000z the FFT is more user friendly, even better as on the DS2000
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 13, 2014, 08:18:32 pm
so i tested version FW 00.03 but still the noise is there.
Test signal is 100 Mhz 0 dB, on other scoop it is a steady clean signal. ( also on FW 00.01.01, or on one channel ) )

On Test3-1 vs. Test1-2, it's obvious the intensity grading is significantly higher.  Did you change that, or is the firmware rendering the same level setting differently?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 14, 2014, 04:31:09 pm
No i did not change the grading, but the signal in test 1 is much cleaner.

in the pictures the same singal generator is used and the same setting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 14, 2014, 05:46:04 pm
so i tested version FW 00.03 but still the noise is there.
Test signal is 100 Mhz 0 dB, on other scoop it is a steady clean signal. ( also on FW 00.01.01, or on one channel ) )
EDIT:    This is better in Latest Firmware 00.03.00.01.03
Here are displays showing Dot sample .  #1 Ch1 only then #2 display of Ch1&Ch2
  In dots mode the Vrms on Ch1 =425mV
  In dots mode the Vrms on Ch1 =429mV with Ch2 on
In vector mode the Vrms on Ch1 =447mV with Ch2 on
In vector mode the Vrms on Ch1 =420mV with Ch2 on and at 2ns/div

I think a the Sin(X)/x interpolation is making some of the difference.
With TB set to 2ns/div the waveform is more accurate.
There is some affect when Ch2 2 is ON. there are Many factors to consider.

These displays are with 2048 point averaging to filter noise
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 14, 2014, 06:03:43 pm
i did a test on a DS1000z  where you can turn off and on Sin(x)/x
that makes a lot...lot  off difference. ( temp a DS1000z  for test ).

But why was it then on FW version 01 of the DS2000  better, what did they change..?


(pictures below are from the DS1000z, for the DS2000 see some posts back )
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on April 14, 2014, 06:13:12 pm
i did a test on a DS1000z  where you can turn off and on Sin(x)/x
that makes a lot...lot  off difference. ( temp a DS1000z  for test ).

Whoa! The amplitude change --- how could sin(x)/x interpolation change the amplitude like that?

Quote
But why was it then on FW version 01 of the DS2000  better, what did they change..?

Whatever they did, it is unfortunate...  I will hope they find it as a bug and change it back.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 14, 2014, 06:42:50 pm
The External Frequency Counter.
I just realized the FW 00.03 allows the 'Ext Trig' input to be used as a Counter,
Some measurements:
        Selectable from the Counter menu
        Range       =  15hz - 52MHz
        Resolution  =    6 digits
        Sense       =   280  mVpp   

Note: The counter had a Flashing display for several minutes before it started working, (a Self Calibration on first use maybe???)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on April 14, 2014, 08:36:03 pm
i did a test on a DS1000z  where you can turn off and on Sin(x)/x
that makes a lot...lot  off difference. ( temp a DS1000z  for test ).

Fifteen sample points per waveform, goodness! There's hardly any real data there, it's almost all interpolated. I wonder what interpolation it's using when you turn sin(x)/x off; it doesn't look like 15 straight line segments to me, and it's certainly not 15 points. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 15, 2014, 04:34:39 pm
Implementation of FFT, differenses between DS2000 and DS1000z, most
things works the same on these two DSO.
But on the DS1000z the FFT is more user friendly, even better as on the DS2000
@Wim
Good to see Wim, I hope those features will go into the DS2000 Firmware someday
On the DS1000;
Can you please check what happens when you push the Multifunction knob when selecting the FFT vertical offset & Vertical Scale,
On the DS2000 with Vrms , pushing knob set 0 Vrms to the middle of the scale , Useless
What is a negative Volt on an FFT display???
Thanks

That is the same on the DS2000 and the DS1000z,
i also see no use for negative voltage for a FFT display in Volt mode, that works with AC voltages.
But it is only the scale that has a negative voltage, not the signal.

On the DS2000 the FFT controls depends lot on the timebase, you have to
change the timebase first to change the FFT range.
On the DS1000z it is different, if you change the timebase, the FFT follows.
thats is more user friendly.

The more i look at the DS1000Z the more i like it.
The DS2000 is better in performance and faster, but the DS1000z UI has
learned from the DS2000 and is enhanced.



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Keyrick on April 15, 2014, 09:39:42 pm
With more and more people stating and receiving the New FW 00.03.00.00, I thinking it would good to report new Bugs here.  Marmad has kept a good list on the 3rd post of this Blog.  Altough Marmad usually confirms all bugs himself , I think it would be helpful for a few others to confirm any reports.  Also if any Fixs to an existing bug is a complete fixed.

These are Bugs I have found:

     #03__01   The Clear Button does not work.

     #03__02   The decode display does not clear when decode is turned off

     #03__03   Once the lg(CH1) advance Math function is applied you can Edit the function;
                   If the Expression button is press the DSO hangs. and if in start Last System. the
                   attempt to change the expression , will hang the DSO!!! :--   :--

     #03__04   The Set Counter Menu has display Error (unnecessary scrolling,small )  see Pics
                   This occurs when system 'System'-'Power On' - is set to 'Last' and the trigger is
                   NOT set to EDGE trigger.
                   Power cycle after PULSE trigger causes 3 items in Menu ,most others 2 items set in Menu
                   Auto Setup Button resets trigger to Edge  and all 4 Menu Items??? (CH1,Ch2,Ext,Off)

If anyone ventures onto Fw 00.03.00.00, please help to confirm any of these.

Edit 1  Added more info on Bug #03__04

Is there any reason that all users of a DS2072A should upgrade to 00.03.00.00?  I just received mine on Friday, and I asked Rigol for a copy of the new firmware.  They sent me a copy of the GEL file and the procedure to install it.  They also advised, in a cautionary way, that there should be a reason to do the upgrade, and as a newbie to this hardware, I don't see the need as of yet.

With the bugs found in the new version, I am wondering if it is prudent of the user, other than for enthusiasts who want the latest and greatest, to perform this upgrade on their scope.  I have not found anything from the manufacturer that denotes the improvements found in the .03 version.  I may have missed the valid reasons for doing so, and it would be nice if someone could point those features/improvements out to a newbie like me!

So, should I install 00.03.00.00?  Thanks in advance for any responses.

Rick
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 15, 2014, 10:30:45 pm
I have not found anything from the manufacturer that denotes the improvements found in the .03 version.  I may have missed the valid reasons for doing so, and it would be nice if someone could point those features/improvements out to a newbie like me!
So, should I install 00.03.00.00?  Thanks in advance for any responses.
Rick
HI Rick and welcome to this Forum,

Good Question, and quick answer is NO. ,
I suggest get used the FW 00.02.01.00.03, and check the list of bugs on the 3rd post here (collected by Marmad and others).
It is better to know the pit falls found by others. 
But here are some features added in FW00.03.00.00 that you may need on Occasion.
    Ext Input used as Frequenct Counter
    Recording Frames of Serial Data Decoded
    Fix of some of the Bugs list

In any case you can switch back to the old FW at any time .
(In order to switch Firmwares , one can use a USB stick and Load FW into the DSO)
( it only takes 171S to change from FW 00.03... to 00.02.....)
(     and  237S to change from 00.02... to 00.03....  bigger file)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Keyrick on April 15, 2014, 11:11:10 pm
Thanks Teneyes for the welcome and the response.  I think I will wait and use this bad boy for a while before I decide to do the upgrade.  With that in mind, I will ask another newbie question.

What does  "it takes 171S to change from 00.03 to 00.02 and  237S to change from 00.02 to 00.03  bigger file" mean?  Is that a file that is resident on the scope?  BTW, my scope is on 00.02.00.00 from Tequipment.

Thanks again.

Rick
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Keyrick on April 16, 2014, 12:17:08 am
Gotcha,

Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: megik on April 16, 2014, 01:32:55 am
hello
I wanted to learn about the lithium battery (cr2032) in (ds2072)
it is only responsible for the RTC belt ?? or remove it if it does not affect the calibration data???
in some multimeter Rigol which battery is installed to preserve the memory of calibration constants....
important question of who can know?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 16, 2014, 01:27:58 pm
What does  "it takes 171S to change from 00.03 to 00.02 and  237S to change from 00.02 to 00.03  bigger file" mean?  Is that a file that is resident on the scope? 

Rick, it just means that it takes about 3 minutes to load the old v2 firmware, if you decide to revert back from v3, after trying it.  And more like 4 minutes to move ahead again to v3, due to the larger size of the image.

I.e., neither difficult nor time-consuming to try both, and decide which you prefer.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 17, 2014, 04:51:45 pm
hello
I wanted to learn about the lithium battery (cr2032) in (ds2072)
it is only responsible for the RTC belt ?? or remove it if it does not affect the calibration data???
in some multimeter Rigol which battery is installed to preserve the memory of calibration constants....
important question of who can know?

It is only for the RTC,  as far as i know there is no alternative for a RTC, you need some battery.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on April 17, 2014, 07:32:44 pm
Some photos of my DS2072A from inside.
(http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/985988.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/985988.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/985989.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/985989.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/985991.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/985991.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/985995.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/985995.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/985996.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/985996.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/985997.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/985997.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/985998.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/985998.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/985999.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/985999.jpg)

I feel some problem here...
(http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/986000.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/986000.jpg)
I think I'll resolder those clips later. :-/O

Some interesting stuff with front panel:
(http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/986002.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/986002.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/986006.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/986006.jpg)

I can see covered hole for signal generator button (to the left on photo) and... hole for "logic analyzer" button to the right? :-DMM
(http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/986003.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/986003.jpg)

And some buttons ripped off from membrane:
(http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/986008.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/986008.jpg)

Encoders are some "LJV":
(http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/986010.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/986010.jpg)

And waveform playback control is from ALPS:
(http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/986011.jpg) (http://fotkidepo.ru/photo/229919/51901LHoNGYIT1c/9kARXniO0a/986011.jpg)

Full album here (http://fotkidepo.ru/?id=album:51901) (Russian langauge).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: WVL_KsZeN on April 18, 2014, 07:57:59 pm
Here's a weird bug in the average function :

-hook up channel one to the 1khz test signal
-hit auto button
-change timebase to 50ms

now your signal just looks like a wide band, like you'd expect on a graded display. OK.

-turn on averaging in the acquire menu, 2x will do nicely.
-> wtf! what happened to our signal? the wide band just turned into a small ribbon
-it gets even weirder when turning on anti-aliasing, now the ribbon is waving over the screen

What is happening here? The scope is fetching 14Mpts, so there shouldnt be any weird aliasing things happening, but still it's there.

It looks normal again when you go to 20ms timebase.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on April 18, 2014, 09:45:58 pm
I got the same result, it's very weird!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=90064;image)

But at 20ms timebase I see artifacts that shouldn't be there either.

Edit: adjusting the trigger affects the shape, tried also AC coupling and same deal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: edavid on April 18, 2014, 11:20:09 pm
Here's a weird bug in the average function :

-hook up channel one to the 1khz test signal
-hit auto button
-change timebase to 50ms

now your signal just looks like a wide band, like you'd expect on a graded display. OK.

-turn on averaging in the acquire menu, 2x will do nicely.
-> wtf! what happened to our signal? the wide band just turned into a small ribbon
-it gets even weirder when turning on anti-aliasing, now the ribbon is waving over the screen

What is happening here? The scope is fetching 14Mpts, so there shouldnt be any weird aliasing things happening, but still it's there.

It looks normal again when you go to 20ms timebase.

Did you try setting the trigger to normal instead of auto?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on April 18, 2014, 11:31:54 pm
Did you try setting the trigger to normal instead of auto?

normal sweep has the same behavior.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 19, 2014, 02:24:47 am
Here's a weird bug in the average function :
-turn on averaging in the acquire menu, 2x will do nicely.
Oh it's an Undocumented feature by Rigol.  :)
I think some sort of Beat freq. with the way Averaging is calculated, combined with Intensity grading and Bug #18 noted in the 3rd post of this blog
Here's some more displays:
   at slightly off frequencies (999.8, 999.9, 1000.05, 1000.1, 1000.2 Hz)
   at off duty cycle  50.7%
and scanning at 49.80ms/div . 
   
Note to Newbies:  I used Marmad's RUU software to capture and post here in 30 sec/pix (no stick 4 me)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on April 19, 2014, 02:45:20 am

Note to Newbies:  I used Marmad's RUU software to capture and post here in 30 sec/pix (no stick 4 me)

Been meaning to install that software, specially for the cool plots in time. Thanks for the remainder (who am I kidding I probably wait another 4 months to do it).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: WVL_KsZeN on April 19, 2014, 07:26:56 am
Here's a weird bug in the average function :
-turn on averaging in the acquire menu, 2x will do nicely.
Oh it's an Undocumented feature by Rigol.  :)
I think some sort of Beat freq. with the way Averaging is calculated, combined with Intensity grading and Bug #18 noted in the 3rd post of this blog
Here's some more disppays:
   at slightly off frequencies (999.8, 999.9, 1000.05, 1000.1, 1000.2 Hz)
   at off duty cycle  50.7%
and scanning at 49.80ms/div . 
   
Note to Newbies:  I used Marmad's RUU software to capture and post here in 30 sec/pix (no stick 4 me)

What I don't get is that the signal is always completely messed up while triggering is functioning properly. You'd expect Rigol to do either of 2 things :

- calc average from screen data (but surely they can't, since you can still zoom in afterwards)
- calc running average from all the captured data (this is what they must be doing, since averaging also works when capturing 56Mptoints and there is simply no more memory)

But that last one is also not what is going on, we can see that. The signal is properly triggered, so the data should be the same for each captured waveform and at 50ms/division, we're getting about 50*12ms = 600ms of data, showing 600 periods of the 1kHz signal. So we have 14Mpts/600=23.333points available per period and should not expect any weird aliasing stuff..

Somehow Rigol must not be calculating the average from all the points from each waveform. It gives me the feeling that Rigol is using points from waveform 1 at time offset x and points from waveform 2 at time offset y to speed up the calculation. Or some other way to sneakily do it, giving these weird results.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 22, 2014, 07:49:59 am
Hello All
   I just received  new FW 00.03.00.01.03
   Has anyone got this version???
   It seems to fix bugs I had found, more testing to do.
   See Pic for new Acquire Menu , room for Logic speed setting???
 Get It Here (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-03_00_01_03.7z)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 22, 2014, 11:33:39 am
Maybe this is official version because the last numbers are not zeroes any more.  ;) :)

...
   I just received  new FW 00.03.00.01.03
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 22, 2014, 07:19:29 pm
New FW:
   Good Decoding of 57600 and 115200 data and up to 900000,
   (New function to copy Trigger baudrate to Decode)
   No DSO freezing on Math lg() function
   No Decoded Data Shift when set on 1.4MPts memory depth
   Long recording of RS232 Decoded data at 115200
       (1600 byte blocks * 508 Frames = 814,800 Bytes)
   When Counter set on EXT Trigger is in Green colour now
   The Sin(x)/X is better for two channels

  Has anyone seen the Offcial list of modifications?
  Get It Here (http://www.gotroot.ca/rigol/DS2000-03_00_01_03.7z)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 23, 2014, 05:34:24 pm

The new FW did not salve the grading problem at 100 Mhz , version 01.01 still is the best.( see pictures below)

New BUG, downloading a screen shot via ethernet is soooo slowwww  ( 35 sec) , i was thinking RUU was not working anymore,
reset several times, but it was the RIGOl, also tested with other PC and Ultra Sigma, same result.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 23, 2014, 05:42:37 pm
Here are 2 pictures with new FW. Both channels are on. The other picture is when Display Type is Dots and the other when it is Vectors.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 23, 2014, 08:21:01 pm
New BUG, downloading a screen shot via ethernet is soooo slowwww  ( 35 sec) , i was thinking RUU was not working anymore,reset several times, but it was the RIGOl, also tested with other PC and Ultra Sigma, same result.
Yes I confirm Ethernet access to the DS2000 with FW 00.03.00.01.03  is much slower than FW 00.02.01.00.03
The time to save a display to PC changes from about 5 seconds/frame  to 33 seconds/frame .

I use USB at 3 sec/frame
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 27, 2014, 08:07:50 pm
Has anyone seen and know what is the meaning of the new addition 'OPEN' to the "Power on" selection menu along with 'Default' and 'Last'??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: davidefa on April 28, 2014, 06:52:36 am
Not installed the new firmware, but I think is someting similar to: load last settings ( those used at turn off, this is the normal behaviour with my software ) or use 'some default' settings
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Fagear on April 28, 2014, 07:09:28 pm
Don't know if it will be helpful... But while Dave still is waiting for stable FW to do his DS2000 review ;) I've shot my own video.
Why it can be not helpfull? Well, it is not on English. :blah:

Unpacking: ??????????? Rigol DS2072: ?????????? ? ?????? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9y4ARz6b50#ws)
Review: ??????????? Rigol DS2072: ????? ???????????? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj1CX10lSYE#ws)

Maybe I will do some captions on English later. Don't know yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on April 28, 2014, 10:24:44 pm
He already did a while back (over a year ago):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TSr9nFN1GU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TSr9nFN1GU)

There is a teardown too. But I'll look at yours when I get home from work.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 29, 2014, 04:20:41 pm
FW 00.03.00.01.03 , Still No SCPI command access to 'CAN' protocol
See Display for:
  The SCPI command to set the trigger mode to 'SPI'
  The SCPI command to query  the current trigger mode 

  The SCPI command to set the trigger mode to 'CAN'
  The SCPI command to query  the current trigger mode 
 
  The DS2000 was manually set to 'CAN'

  The SCPI command to query  the current trigger mode 
 
  The SCPI command to set the trigger mode to 'USB'
  The SCPI command to query  the current trigger mode 
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 30, 2014, 02:46:22 am
Multiple Bursts of 'CAN' messages with short duration between Bursts (75us burst period)

Multiple Bursts of 'CAN' messages with ERROR of missed Frames as the duration between Bursts is too Short.(102us burst period)

I'm not sure what the "Interframe space consists of at least three consecutive recessive (1) bits" spec.
in 'CAN' protocol means. ??
SPEC (http://rs232-rs485.blogspot.ca/2009/11/can-bus-message-frames-overload.html)

Well I'm learning 'CAN' Frame Format and is shown in  #3 Pic

#4 shows the minimum time before next Burst will be decoded =  about 3 Bit periods

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 30, 2014, 10:18:59 am
Don't know if it will be helpful... But while Dave still is waiting for stable FW to do his DS2000 review ;) I've shot my own video.
Why it can be not helpfull? Well, it is not on English. :blah:
Maybe I will do some captions on English later. Don't know yet.

??????, ???????? ????????????? ?????. ???????, ???????! 

???????

update: ok. the 'not English' font did not work  :-[.  Maksim, great informative video. Thanks, good luck!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 30, 2014, 10:19:18 am
I'm not sure what the "Interframe space consists of at least three consecutive recessive (1) bits" spec.
in 'CAN' protocol means. ??

After the End of Frame field, there must be a minimum of 3 Recessive bits for the IFS field.  Of course, in Bus Idle, there can be any number of recessive bits for inter-frame space after that.  But 3 is the minimum, before another Dominant bit can trigger the next SOF.

EDIT:  I'm disappointed to see that they've failed to implement SCPI support for CAN.  That's pretty bogus.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 30, 2014, 10:34:44 am
#4 shows the minimum time before next Burst will be decoded =  about 14 Bit periods

If 14 bit periods are required, as you've indicated, then that means it can not successfully decode back-to-back CAN packets, which I deal with all the time.  I.e., no value as a diagnostic tool. 

EDIT:  OK, I think I see (most of) the problem.  You're counting the minimum interval before the next burst, starting after the ACK slot, right?  There are 11 bits after that which are still part of the CAN frame: ACK delim(1), EOF(7), IFS(3).  Which must all be recessive, so it just looks like dead space.  That accounts for 11 of the 14 bits you indicated.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on April 30, 2014, 08:08:28 pm
Well , Rigol knows of the SCPI and I got 3 messages from China, thanking me for my reports and stating that my info was referred to R&D then this response 2 hours later.

We will fix this in next version ,thank you .


Yeah, that's great.  Except the new version you're testing is already the "next version".  They were already made aware of this, when CAN 'support' was first added to the 2000 firmware.

Perhaps she meant the next, next version.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AintBigAintClever on May 01, 2014, 08:11:52 pm
My DS2072A-S works happily on rev. 2.x firmware, signal generator and all. Whatever's been added in 3.x, I don't think A-S support is it.

Of course they could've added more features to the A-S than are present in 2.x, I wouldn't know without digging into the firmware (which is way, waaaaaaaaay over my head).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on May 01, 2014, 08:24:33 pm
I think we know that FW 00.03.00.01.02 was a release to support the new DS2000A-S models being so much bigger FW...

My DS2072A-S works happily on rev. 2.x firmware, signal generator and all. Whatever's been added in 3.x, I don't think A-S support is it.

What has been added in v00.03 is likely support for new MSO2072A(-S) series (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg419081/#msg419081).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AintBigAintClever on May 02, 2014, 01:10:49 am
Aha, that would make sense then.  :)

Typical, no sooner do I bite the bullet and buy a new scope than a better version comes onto the horizon! Just found a price list here (http://www.arbenelux.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Pricelist-Rigol-April-2014-incl-BTW.pdf), MSO prices appear to be between about €200 and €350 over their equivalent DS models.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndersAnd on May 02, 2014, 08:25:16 am
May be this already mentioned somewhere, but I just noticed it: MSO version of DS2000A series is coming!

Maybe that's what the big v00.03 firmware update and version number jump is about?!

See http://www.rigol.com/ (http://www.rigol.com/) and select the Chinese localization.

(http://www.rigol.com/upload/page/1/slide_12091_1395971711_b8bda_c32b8.jpg)
There's also a MSO1000Z series at the Chinese site, which isn't listed at the international site yet. The links for the MSO1000Z and MSO2000A images both below both contain the upload date March 27 2014.
FOR MSO4000 it's May 3 2013.
The logic analyzers in both MSO1000Z, MSO200A and MSO4000 are 16-bit. But there's a different much wider LA-connector on MSO100Z than the one used on both MSO2000A and MSO4000:

http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/MSODS1000Z/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/MSODS1000Z/)
(http://www.rigol.com/upload/14-03/27/1395905558.jpg)
MSO1000Z

http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/MSODS2000A/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/MSODS2000A/)
(http://www.rigol.com/upload/14-03/27/MSO2000A-500.jpg)
MSO2000A

http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS4000/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS4000/)
(http://www.rigol.com/upload/13-05/03/1367552729.jpg)
MSO4000
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 02, 2014, 03:51:05 pm
Here is a CAN Bus Message of 3 Bytes of Data (43,41,4E)
I have zoom display of each sections of the Frame for discussion.
I will show all sections in this Post then I will highlight points where I have some concerns in additional posts
The  Display are:
   ID
   Frame DATA Length
   3  Bytes of Data
   CRC
   ACK
   Between meesage Gap
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 02, 2014, 11:10:19 pm
Here are my comments on the Sampling position of the signal and How the DS2000 displays data.
I do not have and experience with  analog sigansl with Data decoding.

In the first display I show how adjusting the Trigger sample point shifts the Trace and Data relative to the Orange Trigger point.I shoe at 5 %, 50 % and 95% sample point
 All looks nice and Good.

In the second display I show how adjusting the Decode sample point shifts the Trace and Data relative to the Input Trace.I show 3 conditions
        Trigger at 5 %,  and Decode at  95% sample point
        Trigger at 50%  and Decode at  50% sample point
        Trigger at 95%, and Decode at    5% sample point

Here I think I would prefer that the entire Message is shifted and NOT just the Length and DATA.
Is this a BUG??
WHat to other DSO's do?
What do others think?

You will see that the Data overlaps the CRC some times.
Just be aware of the shifting , when you are trying to examine trace timing and CAN Data  bits
good feature of the Copy trigger , is the sample point is copied so Both Trigger and Decode are the same, but if you adjust the Decode , the Trigger point does not Follow.


Note this CAN messges was done with Arb Gen.,
But I am still trying to calculate the Correct CRC

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AintBigAintClever on May 03, 2014, 11:25:32 am
My DS2072A-S works happily on rev. 2.x firmware, signal generator and all. Whatever's been added in 3.x, I don't think A-S support is it.
@AintaBigCleaver :D
Did you try  FW 00.03.00.01.03 ?
     or Beta  FW=00.03.00.00.00 ?
Skipped the beta. No idea what was on it out-of-the-box (idiot boy forgot to check first!). Tried it on 2.x grab-the-key firmware and 00.03.00.01.03, both of which would allow feature unlocking keys but no bandwidth change keys, so it's on 2.x non-A-keys firmware for now, fully unlocked  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 04, 2014, 06:02:59 am
Here's a Test to see Frequency tolerance of the Rigol CAN bus Decoding;
The base Frequency was set to max. of 1.0Mb/s and the input message bit rate was raised until an Error and then lower until errors.
 Displays;
      1:  Good decoding  at a higher Bit rate (1.087Mb/s) just before  Errors occured
      2:  No decoding     at a higher Bit rate (1.111Mb/s) as Errors occur

      3:  Good decoding  at a lower Bit rate (0.915Mb/s) just before  Errors occured
      4:  Error decoding  at a higher Bit rate (0.909Mb/s) as Errors occur

So I would say  Tolerance is  -8.5%  to  +8.7 %  of Baud rate:
but I am not sure what the theoretical range is?
The timing could be from the the Trigger point, but with 70 bit times there might  be re-syncing at the bit change edges
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 04, 2014, 02:12:32 pm
Does anyone know how Agilent deals with displaying CAN data??   Hydrawerk??
Hi Teneyes.  :)

The other day I found this video. Is that what you wanted to see?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR9izyGET2g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR9izyGET2g#ws)

And also I found this video (download to see):

http://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadBody/35783-102-2-217111/T%26M-Learning%20Center-Oscilloscopes-Video-Agilent.Training_Videos_6.wmv (http://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadBody/35783-102-2-217111/T%26M-Learning%20Center-Oscilloscopes-Video-Agilent.Training_Videos_6.wmv)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 04, 2014, 02:41:25 pm
Obscure Bug in FW 00.03.00.01.02
Understandable, When the range for decoding is 10Kb/s to 1.00Mb/s  and there is a Fix Baud setting for 1.00Mb/s. Then the Owner would only be trying to select a "USER" baud rate of  11-999 ( all in Kb/s)
But in "USER" Trigger mode Rigol allows the Trigger to be 1.00Kb/s -  10.00Mb/s, so that copying the trigger range is bigger than the programmed Decode range.
Is there a Need for a wider CAN decoding Baud range,?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on May 04, 2014, 04:13:49 pm
Obscure Bug in FW 00.03.00.01.02

In the Display below , See what is wrong with the Settings

Nice catch.  Kind of strange that something as simple as copying a setting from the trigger section to the decode section would be broken.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on May 04, 2014, 04:18:37 pm
Thanks Carrington

I could not download the second link

Me neither.

Quote
The videos and  pdf file shows how a DSO decodes message and then shows the decoded data ,but does NOT show enough detail to show Stuffed Bits and the bit by bit comparison

I doubt any of them do.  You're doing the bit-wise comparison to check if the Rigol is decoding properly.  The rest assume they do decode properly, so there's no reason to check the device operation.  I.e., the purpose is to test the bus, not the test instrument.  For that purpose, no one cares which bits are stuff bits.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 04, 2014, 04:23:35 pm
Thanks Carrington
You're welcome.

I could not download the second link
Could this be the Video, showing how Hardware decoding helps
Agilent video (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/redirector.jspx?action=ref&cname=AGILENT_EDITORIAL&ckey=826337&lc=eng&cc=CA&nfr=-11143.0.00)
Yes, it's the same video.

It might be interesting to see a test of  the speed of Protocol decoding between Rigol vs Tek
Sure!

The videos and  pdf file shows how a DSO decodes message and then shows the decoded data ,but does NOT show enough detail to show Stuffed Bits and the bit by bit comparison
No, about that particular detail, I haven't found anything.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 04, 2014, 04:33:55 pm
Thanks Carrington

I could not download the second link

Me neither.
Oops! Me neither.

I don't know if this link works:
http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-35783/l/debugging-can-based-designs-video--agilent (http://www.element14.com/community/docs/DOC-35783/l/debugging-can-based-designs-video--agilent)

Quote
The videos and  pdf file shows how a DSO decodes message and then shows the decoded data ,but does NOT show enough detail to show Stuffed Bits and the bit by bit comparison

I doubt any of them do.  You're doing the bit-wise comparison to check if the Rigol is decoding properly.  The rest assume they do decode properly, so there's no reason to check the device operation.  I.e., the purpose is to test the bus, not the test instrument.  For that purpose, no one cares which bits are stuff bits.
No idea, but probably you're right.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 04, 2014, 05:09:24 pm
By the way:

Someone in the forum already has a MSO2072A?

 ::) I'd love to watch a review.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 04, 2014, 07:01:24 pm
A self-criticism   :)
:) There is nothing wrong, now we know more than before.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on May 05, 2014, 03:32:30 am
Here's a Test to see Frequency tolerance of the Rigol CAN bus Decoding;
The base Frequency was set to max. of 1.0Mb/s and the input message bit rate was raised until an Error and then lower until errors.
 Displays;
      1:  Good decoding  at a higher Bit rate (1.087Mb/s) just before  Errors occured
      2:  No decoding     at a higher Bit rate (1.111Mb/s) as Errors occur

      3:  Good decoding  at a lower Bit rate (0.877Mb/s) just before  Errors occured
      4:  Error decoding  at a higher Bit rate (0.862Mb/s) as Errors occur

So I would say  Tolerance is  -12%  to  +8.7 %  of Baud rate:
but I am not sure what the theoretical range is?
The timing could be from the the Tigger point, but with 70 bit times there might  be re-syncing at the bit change edges

Not sure if I'm measuring the same things you are measuring but I found on my 2072 that RS232 decodes reliably in the range of - 6% to 5%.  It was at a slow rate and just one test.  EF
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 06, 2014, 04:27:27 pm
Well , maybe I opened the 'CAN'
Let me start will this past discussion of how soon is the DS2000 able to decode the next 'CAN' bus message.?

Here I show you that it depends on the CRC!
If the CRC is correct the DS2000 will decode if there is a 3 Bit times of Idle
If the CRC is Not correct the DS2000 will decode if there is a 7 Bit times of Idle
Here are the Displays:
   1:  CAN message bursts with Ok  CRC has good Decoding at a Interframe space of 6 bit times
   2:  CAN message bursts with Bad CRC has good Decoding at a Interframe space of 7 bit times,  Should do better
   3:  CAN message bursts with Bad CRC Skips Decoding      at a Interframe space of 6 bit times   Should do better
   4:  CAN message bursts with Ok  CRC  has good Decoding at a Interframe space of 3 bit times
   5:  CAN message bursts with Ok  CRC  has NO Decoding   at a Interframe space of  2 bit times  Could do better

I  think this is a BUG and I have reported it to Rigol

Now , although the InterFrame spacing Spec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus#Interframe_spacing) for devices on a 'CAN' bus , is 'to leave the bus idle for 3 bit times , I see no reason for using a DSO as a diagnostic tool to decode Message faster than the devices. Yes, the DSO can scan for the End of Frame (1111111) flag , then open to decode any correct message that follows. Then the DSO should display a RED Bar showing faulty interframe space and the good message.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 06, 2014, 05:04:09 pm
Next out of the 'CAN'
Here is a report of the Trigger getting disabled.

When the DS2000 is using 'CAN' trigger on Frame DATA, any adjustment of the display causes the Triggering to Stop
Here are changes that stop the Triggering:
     1. Changing the Timebase
     2. Enabling Ch 2
     3 .Moving the Trigger position or level
     4 .starting a Recording
     5. moving the vertical position
Pretty much any adjustment

A 'Force' trigger only does a Single Trigger then it stops!

Now one can restart the triggering by changing one of the trigger menu items:
ID, When, ID format, but then you must change it back to what you want
I use 'All bits'  and less important  ,
Generally a DYSFUNCTIONAL mode
Here are displays
Triggering OK
and stuck in Wait
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 06, 2014, 06:17:20 pm
More Worms
Here are displays highlighting  what would you call them
    Annoyances
    More room for improvement
    A Difficult to use feature
Displays
   1: setting the CAN ID
   2, View Detail
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 06, 2014, 06:41:16 pm
In my past posts here I have shown you some  'CAN' bus messages with incorrect CRC
but lately I have posted  'CAN' bus messages with correct CRC
 
To do the testing I want to create a specific message,
but I did not have any 'CAN' bus devices to test and that would show a complete message to test with,
so I created my own messages that I can vary parameters (voltages, timing, data, and errors )
And to be correct I needed to create the CRC for the complete message.
I did research and tried different software , but no program generated the correct 15 bit 'CAN' bus CRC.
 
So I went back to the basics
and manually formed the CRC for the message I used in my testing
After 4 mistakes, and slow carefull working here is my long binary division for the CAN bus CRC

I hope you are amused
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on May 06, 2014, 10:16:00 pm
I was thinking more of the occasion where a process monitoring device, one is design/building, is not stuffing the bit in or is causing errors in the CAN msg.
Any time a device is showing voltage and decoded bits it is nice to see the Bit-to-Bit Matching clearly.
For Rigiol , maybe only when a Binary display of the message is selected.

I don't disagree, but even in that case, the Rigol will show that there is an error.  (Should flag a Stuff-Error, at then end.)   But you have a good point that it won't flag where the faulty bit is located.  For that, you can just look at the stream, and see where a Stuff-bit should have been inserted, but wasn't.

Unless the CAN stream is being generated by software (certainly possible, especially at slower bit rates), I can't think of any situation you'd ever see a stuff-error that wasn't due to noise, or a glitch or something along those lines.  And the transient problem should be pretty unambiguous.  I.e., all the hardware chips I've ever seen (maybe 4 or 5) manage to 'stuff' CAN reliably.  If they don't, it's factory-recall time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 07, 2014, 09:25:11 am
      3:  Good decoding  at a lower Bit rate (0.915Mb/s) just before  Errors occured
      4:  Error decoding  at a higher Bit rate (0.909Mb/s) as Errors occur

So I would say  Tolerance is  -8.5%  to  +8.7 %  of Baud rate:
Not sure if I'm measuring the same things you are measuring but I found on my 2072 that RS232 decodes reliably in the range of - 6% to 5%.  It was at a slow rate and just one test.  EF
@Electrofan
   I have updated my test (good CRC) and I have corrected the lower range , from 12% to 8 %
As for your RS232 testing , Did you vary the Signal input Baud rate  or the DSO user setting  Baud rate.?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on May 07, 2014, 09:41:54 am
Well , maybe I opened a 'CAN' of worms

Let me start will this past discussion of how soon is the DS2000 able to decode the next 'CAN' bus message.?

First off, I'd like to congratulate you for taking things step by step, down to the bottom.  It's been enjoyable to watch.   :clap:  For quite some time, I wondered how the DS2000 would handle CAN decoding, and you've shown it does a pretty nice job of it.

Quote
Here I show you that it depends on the CRC!
If the CRC is correct the DS2000 will decode if there is a 3 Bit times of Idle
If the CRC is Not correct the DS2000 will decode if there is a 7 Bit times of Idle

Yes, you are correct.  And not only for the DS2000, but for hardware CAN bus controllers as well.

There are still a few things about CAN you don't know, and I really don't have time for an in-depth explanation at the moment.  But CAN is a bus, which means whenever anyone sends (asserts a dominant bit), everyone sees it (including the Sender).  And, e.g., with the ACK bit, everyone sends it, at roughly the same time (assuming they're staying in sync properly). When an error-condition occurs, such as a CRC error, everyone sees that too.  It causes an REC register (receive-error counter) to increment for everyone, and a TEC register (for the transmitter).  At that point, a bus-error condition is flagged, and you simply don't wipe it, and start instantly with the next clean frame.  It simply will never happen.

Quote
Here are the Displays:
   1:  CAN message bursts with Ok  CRC has good Decoding at a Interframe space of 6 bit times
   2:  CAN message bursts with Bad CRC has good Decoding at a Interframe space of 7 bit times,  Should do better
   3:  CAN message bursts with Bad CRC Skips Decoding      at a Interframe space of 6 bit times   Should do better
   4:  CAN message bursts with Ok  CRC  has good Decoding at a Interframe space of 3 bit times
   5:  CAN message bursts with Ok  CRC  has NO Decoding   at a Interframe space of  2 bit times  Could do better

I  think this is a BUG and I have reported it to Rigol

Now , although the InterFrame spacing Spec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus#Interframe_spacing) for devices on a 'CAN' bus , is 'to leave the bus idle for 3 bit times , I see no reason for using a DSO as a diagnostic tool to decode Message faster than the devices. Yes, the DSO can scan for the End of Frame (1111111) flag , then open to decode any correct message that follows. Then the DSO should display a RED Bar showing faulty interframe space and the good message.

I understand what you're saying... that you think the Rigol should be able to detect and decode protocol conditions and state-transitions, even if they would never actually occur on a real CAN bus.  In theory, that may be interesting.  But in practice, I don't think it's either necessary or reasonable for a diagnostic test device to decode bus traffic that will never occur.

I'd have to dig back into the Bosch defining specs for CAN 2.0 to find all the nitty-gritty details of the state-transitions that occur after a bus-error, but I can tell you for sure that recovery is never instantaneous, and no properly operating CAN transmitter will ever start sending the next frame as soon as you'd like the Rigol to be able to decode it.

I am happy though, to see that you did narrow things down, and demonstrated that when the CRC was correct, the Rigol did NOT need any more IFS bits than what the CAN spec calls for, to decode properly.  It's also interesting to see how they dropped the ball on the Detail list.  Those findings are definitely legitimate bugs.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on May 07, 2014, 09:56:44 am
To do the testing I want to create a specific message,
but I did not have any 'CAN' bus devices to test and that would show a complete message to test with,
so I created my own messages that I can vary parameters (voltages, timing, data, and errors ) and be correct.
I needed to create the CRC for the complete message also.
I did research and tried different software , but no program generated the Correct 15 bit 'CAN' bus CRC.
 
So I went back to basics
and manually formed the CRC for the message I used in Testing
After 4 mistakes, and slow working here is my long division for the CAN bus CRC

I hope you are amused

My hat is definitely off to you.   :-+  I've been working with numerous CAN protocols on a daily basis, for about a decade now (J1939, ISO-14229, CANOpen, ISO-15765, etc.), and I've never taken the time to do that by hand.  Of course, I've always had chips available in my product designs that did that work for me.  So I could afford to be 'lazy'.  :) 

In the old days, they were outboard CAN chips (Microchip, Intel, NXP), but now all the MCUs in the embedded space have one or two CAN channels built-in.  Most of the work gets done in the protocol stack sitting on top of the physical transport layer.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 07, 2014, 10:24:26 am
In theory, that may be interesting.  But in practice, I don't think it's either necessary or reasonable for a diagnostic test device to decode bus traffic that will never occur.
I'd have to dig back into the Bosch defining specs for CAN 2.0 to find all the nitty-gritty details of the state-transitions that occur after a bus-error, but I can tell you for sure that recovery is never instantaneous, and no properly operating CAN transmitter will ever start sending the next frame as soon as you'd like the Rigol to be able to decode it.
Thanks  Mark_O, for the feedback ,

As for "will never occur."   but I would say "SHOULD never occur"

I can see Rigol having a test setup of a  CAN Network and running tests.
Then programming the DSO to display the communication traffic.    I suspect extra code was put into the program  to delay the searching for Start of Next Frame in order to duplicate the Norm.
My philosophy is more to look for the odd occurrences. ( stray cat, hardware bug, geeky chick)

I got eNote that Rigol Marketing is sending a report over to R&D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 07, 2014, 10:46:10 am
Here's an Odd Occurance
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on May 07, 2014, 01:38:21 pm
As for "will never occur."   but I would say "SHOULD never occur"

Yes, you are correct.  I'd have to agree with you on that distinction.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: hans on May 08, 2014, 02:22:38 pm
Has anyone had any problems with a Rigol DS1074Z(-S) scope not booting up from time to time?

I believe I am running the SP5 firmware (which it came with, not sure if there is a new version 3.0 out yet) , and from time to time the scope just sits there and doesn't boot up. No lights from the front panel light up, and the screen just says Rigol.
If I repower the scope it works fine.

It has happened with both installed and uninstalled options key (still on trial period for a few hours).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on May 08, 2014, 04:47:04 pm
Has anyone had any problems with a Rigol DS1074Z(-S) scope not booting up from time to time?

I believe I am running the SP5 firmware (which it came with, not sure if there is a new version 3.0 out yet) , and from time to time the scope just sits there and doesn't boot up. No lights from the front panel light up, and the screen just says Rigol.
If I repower the scope it works fine.

It has happened with both installed and uninstalled options key (still on trial period for a few hours).

This does not sound right. I got a new DS1104Z this week, and it boots every time correctly. It is running firmware 02.03.SP5, and was set-up with all options, except the 500uV. Pretty nice scope in addition to a DS2000.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 08, 2014, 06:34:51 pm
Very good news, Sigrok now supports the RIGOL DS2000, and runs on windows!

http://sigrok.org/wiki/Rigol_DS2000_series (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Rigol_DS2000_series)
http://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads)



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=92896;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=92898;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on May 08, 2014, 07:32:39 pm
Very good news, Sigrok now supports the RIGOL DS2000, and runs on windows!

http://sigrok.org/wiki/Rigol_DS2000_series (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Rigol_DS2000_series)
http://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Downloads)



Thanks, didn't even know this existed and it does support my DMM as well, good because the software that came with it is not that great.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 08, 2014, 07:49:58 pm
Very good news, Sigrok now supports the RIGOL DS2000, and runs on windows!
Is CAN decoding after the data is transfered to the PC??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 08, 2014, 07:51:22 pm
Thanks, didn't even know this existed and it does support my DMM as well, good because the software that came with it is not that great.

You're welcome.

I have been following the sigrok project for some time ago, however, the previous versions were not as easy to install on Windows. And yes, it supports a wide range of hardware:

http://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 08, 2014, 07:53:15 pm
Is CAN decoding after the data is transfered to the PC??
I suppose so.
Someone has already tried it with a DS2000?  :scared:



Not the DS2000, just an example:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=92910;image)

It has a lot of examples:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=92912;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on May 08, 2014, 08:20:13 pm
I would, but not at home right now and I don't have a good CANdidate to get the signal, I could try with RS-232 but not until later.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Carrington on May 09, 2014, 12:38:51 am
Analog signals (A0-A4) cannot be selected to do decoding.  :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on May 11, 2014, 01:18:52 am
Have you seen these new reviews?
Review: Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Pt 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhaIJGyJO6k#ws)
Review: Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Pt 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY9eeS_4sYQ#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 11, 2014, 03:18:32 pm
Have you seen these new reviews?

Why? Most of us here have owned the DSO for months - and know much more about it than this reviewer.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 11, 2014, 03:23:55 pm
Here's an Odd Occurance

Hey Len,

I'm finally back home and using the DSO again - and want to update the bug / FW list on Page 1. Can you summarize any new bugs you discovered (to save me some time) - and also, have you tested the old bugs from the list to see if any of them are fixed in v.3?

Thanks,
Mark
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 12, 2014, 01:38:52 am
Well, I finally played around with the new v.3 FW and I can't say that I'm impressed.

AFAIK, the only earlier reported (main) bug they appear to have fixed is the Math Log() function - and they've made some stupid changes that don't make sense - except perhaps because they were needed for the upcoming MSO models: for example, they changed the position of some Menu selections: MemDepth and Anti-Aliasing in the ACQUIRE menu, and they've changed the font for numbers in the menus from the nice san-serif font used for the letters to some rather ugly, less-readable, squashed serif font.

They don't seem to have tackled ANY of the serious acquisition or SCPI-related bugs - thumbs down, Rigol!

Also I noticed there is a new Ethernet bug introduced in FW v.3 - any other serious bugs that people have found?

Anyway, I think it's back to v.2 for me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 16, 2014, 11:06:33 pm
Just to confirm what Teneyes already discovered (and posted) about the new DS2000 v.3 FW - this time using I2C: the DSO can now decode within segmented memory.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=94037)


Although I'm not happy that Rigol hasn't tackled some of the bugs we reported over the last months (in both v.1 & v.2 FW), the ability to finally decode segmented memory means I've changed my mind and will stick with FW v.3.

Hopefully now that Rigol has finally finished (or is very close to being finished) with the expansion of the DS2000 line (i.e. MSO2000A), they might get back to getting rid of some of the leftover bugs. The good thing about expanding the line (as opposed to completely new models) is that the same DSO bugs will affect all of the owners - so a larger user base of customers who potentially might complain about the same thing.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 17, 2014, 12:59:55 pm
I found another new feature in FW v.3 - something we've been asking them for over the last year - and although it's a baby step by Rigol, at least it's a baby step in the right direction:

The External Trigger input can now (finally) be used for a second trigger type: PULSE

This would help explain Teneyes' earlier discovery that the Ext. Trigger can now be used as a source for the counter: it seems to go hand-in-hand with adding pulse measuring capabilities.

An encouraging sign... let's hope they keep adding more triggers it can be used as a source for.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Rory on May 17, 2014, 04:11:29 pm
Now it would be good if Rigol would add an external trigger input on the back of the DS1074Z.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on May 17, 2014, 07:00:25 pm
Modifying this post to say that the following steps worked well (as of today May 17, 2-14) to do the Firmware Upgrade (on a DS2072, ie, the non-A version) for FW v.3.

Rigol DS2000, DS4000, DS6000 Firmware Upgrade Procedure
Instructions originally Dated: 11.21.2012

Solution:

0. Check to see that the USB stick is recognized by inserting into the USB
input on the front panel. The instrument should indicate USB Device
Detected.

NOTE: If the device is not recognized, try another USB memory stick. We
also recommend minimizing the number of folders, files, and programs on
the stick. Drives less than 4GB in total volume are also recommended.

1. Download the proper firmware file and transfer to the root directory of a
USB memory stick. If you have downloaded the packed .rar/.zip file. Do not
forget to unpack and only copy the .GEL file to your USB stick.

2. Plug the instrument in to an uninterruptible power supply.
WARNING! Don't power cycle or disturb the instrument until the upgrade is
complete.. as the instrument can be damaged.
NOTE: USB Stick is not plugged in DS2000/DS4000/DS6000 at this time!!!

3. Press the power on button on the front panel of the instrument. All of the
buttons will light. At the same time press two or three times the Help key on
the front panel. All buttons will unlight

4. If you now can see the Rigol Logo on the screen you failed to go into update
mode. Please go back to step 3.
If the screen stays black and the Single light will illuminate (as below in the
picture) you can go ahead.

5. Now it is time to insert the USB stick into the front panel.

6. The CH1 button will flash and then go solid.

7. After 5-10 minutes, all of the buttons on the front panel will be lit. The
upgrade is complete.

8. Remove the USB drive and power cycle the instrument.

9. You can check the firmware revision by pressing
Utility > System > System info

--

A few observations:

In Step 3, as soon as the power button was pushed in I just kept quickly pressing and repressing the Help button (maybe 2-3 times very quickly), this seemed to be the best way to put the oscilloscope into the Firmware upgrade mode.

In Step 6, the CH1 button seemed to flashed for about 30 seconds or possibly somewhat longer.

Step 7 didn't seem to take nearly 5-10 minutes; maybe 4 minutes or so?  When the CH1 button quits flashing and the front panel button lights come on nothing shows on the display.  At this point Step 7 is complete and you can proceed to Step 8.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 17, 2014, 07:56:51 pm
Are the steps below the best steps for upgrading firmware, or are there better steps?

Also, where is the best place to get FW v.3 for the 2072 (2072, not 2072A in case there is any difference)?

I use that procedure - although I don't press the Help button 2 or 3 times: just 1 time and let go - but it has to be during the 1 second that all the buttons are lit, right after you press the On button (use two hands - as detailed in the second post of this thread).

I added the download link for FW v.3 - also in the second post of this thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 17, 2014, 09:49:54 pm
Is the screen supposed to show anything when the upgrade is done?  Or does the scope need to be powered off and back on when the all the front panel lights are lit continuously?  Thx!

Yes, you have to power cycle (reboot) at the end (when all the lights are lit).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on May 17, 2014, 09:51:01 pm
Ok, success!  (I think).  Thanks!

fyi, the CH1 button seemed to flash in Step 6 for about 30 seconds or possibly a bit longer.

Step 7 didn't seem to take nearly 5-10 minutes

Thanks again for the always deluxe EEVblog Forum help!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 17, 2014, 10:02:38 pm
Ok, success!  (I think).  Thanks!
No problem. You can use  the technique described in post 2 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684) to get the full firmware version info to check that the upgrade/downgrade occurred correctly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on May 17, 2014, 10:46:07 pm
I found another new feature in FW v.3 - something we've been asking them for over the last year - and although it's a baby step by Rigol, at least it's a baby step in the right direction:

The External Trigger input can now (finally) be used for a second trigger type: PULSE
- how would you wire this up to demonstrate this?

This would help explain Teneyes' earlier discovery that the Ext. Trigger can now be used as a source for the counter: it seems to go hand-in-hand with adding pulse measuring capabilities.
- how would you wire this up to demonstrate this?

An encouraging sign... let's hope they keep adding more triggers it can be used as a source for.

Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 18, 2014, 04:54:43 am
the Ext. Trigger can now be used as a source for the counter:
- how would you wire this up to demonstrate this?
Here is 1MHz on Ch1 , with  a 250KHz ,phase locked to the 1Mhz and connect to the External Trigger.
Note:  The Trigger is set to Rising edge on the External input. but the trigger point is the falling part of the Sine wave.
# 2 showing what was on the External input
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on May 19, 2014, 01:32:40 am
Teneyes, can you show us the same test using square waves, say from a synchronous binary counter chip? If there is a difference there, that would be serious.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 19, 2014, 01:52:39 am
Teneyes, can you show us the same test using square waves, say from a synchronous binary counter chip? If there is a difference there, that would be serious.

What do you mean? Serious in what way?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on May 19, 2014, 06:54:58 am
It would mean something is way wrong. With a sinewave input maybe there is some phase shift in the external analog circuit, but inputting two square waves with known identical corresponding transitions every 4 cycles, only different in frequency, it is a very easy test to reproduce, and if an anomaly shows up, then yeah, theres problems alright.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 19, 2014, 12:49:59 pm
It would mean something is way wrong. With a sinewave input maybe there is some phase shift in the external analog circuit, but inputting two square waves with known identical corresponding transitions every 4 cycles, only different in frequency, it is a very easy test to reproduce, and if an anomaly shows up, then yeah, theres problems alright.

There is no anomaly from the Rigol in the images he posted. It's triggering exactly where it's supposed to: on the zero-crossing rising edge of the External Trigger input (or CH2, when he made the image to demonstrate the previous one). Any phase shift is, obviously, external.

So I don't see your point: you want another test to show it operates correctly again?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 19, 2014, 05:47:36 pm
Here's a repeat of Teneyes' demo, except using EXT. Trig as the source to a PULSE trigger.

1MHz sine to CH1 , with the AWG Sync Out signal connected to the External Trigger.
The Trigger is set for a positive PULSEs > 490ns.
Image #2 shows the same triggering replicated with CH2:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on May 20, 2014, 07:22:24 am
Teneyes, can you show us the same test using square waves, say from a synchronous binary counter chip? If there is a difference there, that would be serious.
@Circlotron & Others
  In my last report of a External trigger I used a sine wave to show how the external trigger was independant of the CH1 & Ch2 inputs.
 Below I repeated the test with two square waves the are Phase Aligned.
Note: I am using a DG4000 with 2 outputs. (lock)
In the display #1 you can see the 4 Cycles on Ch1 locked to the 1 cycle on Ch2
and in the Zoom part you can see the trigger  on Ch 2 works very accurately.

I then disconnected the 250KHz signal off of Ch2 input and connected it to the External Trigger input And the display #2 show the result.
CH2  in disconnected but still on.
Note that there appears to be about a  9ns offset between the "EDGE" External Trigger point and the CH1 trace.
Can anyone else verify this.  Just use a "T" connector and feed a square wave signal to both CH1 & External Trigger. Set the trigger source to EXT.

Also there appears to be about a  13ns offset between the "Pulse" External Trigger point and the CH1 trace.


I would think this trigger to trace offset could be compensated in the Firmware to display the Traces correctly when on external triggering. Is this a Bug? Is it only on the DS2000?


Please note that the External trigger requires an input >280mV to trigger and Count.
so if you see the Counter not working then the trigger will be jittering at first then NOT triggering at lower input signal.
There is not spec in the manual to the External Trigger sensitivity
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on May 20, 2014, 08:17:50 am
Teneyes,

I can confirm the delay of 9nS, also I see jitter of 500nS if I trigger externally.

On old Tek scopes you sometimes had the possibility to view the external trigger signal. Not so with the Rigol DS2000 series....

 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on May 20, 2014, 09:08:36 am
also I see jitter of 500nS if I trigger externally.

I see jitter on a weak signal. < 280mVpp
What was the amplitude of the signal in your test?
I tested with Sin Wave 100mV RMS, and with Sq wave 1Vpp. I did not see any difference in the jitter.

BTW 500nS should be 500pS  :palm:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on May 20, 2014, 11:07:15 am
I tested with Sin Wave 100mV RMS, and with Sq wave 1Vpp. I did not see any difference in the jitter.
was the Sq.wave above and below 0.0 Vdc ,
What version of FW??
Symetrically at 0Volts, so -500..+500mv
FW is 3.00.01.03
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 20, 2014, 12:26:15 pm
Note that there appears to be about a  9ns offset between the "EDGE" External Trigger point and the CH1 trace.

The offset I get with a 0V External Trigger level is ~5-6ns (see image #1 - it varies a bit based on input voltage level). But since the External Trigger is a different signal path from the channel inputs, I would expect some difference. Of course, the offset changes based on the trigger level set: note the 3 images with a 0, 500mv, and 750mV trigger level. At 500mv (with 2V pk-to-pk square wave input simultaneously to CH1 and EXT) there is zero offset.

It appears the optimal setting for an External Trigger (assuming you want as little offset as possible) is between ~1/4 to 2/3 (with 1/2 between the average) of the respective-going voltage (i.e. for falling/negative edges/pulses ~half of the negative voltage - for rising/positive edges/pulses ~half of the positive voltage).

I can confirm the delay of 9nS, also I see jitter of 500nS if I trigger externally.

Symetrically at 0Volts, so -500..+500mv
FW is 3.00.01.03

+500mV/-500mV square wave - virtually zero jitter (and no offset with trigger level set to 250mV). Check animated GIF of captured segments.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on May 20, 2014, 01:45:54 pm
Note that there appears to be about a  9ns offset between the "EDGE" External Trigger point and the CH1 trace.

The offset I get with a 0V External Trigger level is ~5-6ns (see image #1 - it varies a bit based on input voltage level). But since the External Trigger is a different signal path from the channel inputs, I would expect some difference. Of course, the offset changes based on the trigger level set: note the 3 images with a 0, 500mv, and 750mV trigger level. At 500mv (with 2V pk-to-pk square wave input simultaneously to CH1 and EXT) there is zero offset.

It appears the optimal setting for an External Trigger (assuming you want as little offset as possible) is between ~1/4 to 2/3 (with 1/2 between the average) of the respective-going voltage (i.e. for falling/negative edges/pulses ~half of the negative voltage - for rising/positive edges/pulses ~half of the positive voltage).

I can confirm the delay of 9nS, also I see jitter of 500nS if I trigger externally.

Symetrically at 0Volts, so -500..+500mv
FW is 3.00.01.03

+500mV/-500mV square wave - virtually zero jitter (and no offset with trigger level set to 250mV). Check animated GIF of captured segments.

Nice animated JPEG ! almost a real scope on your desktop :)
However I can see horizontal jitter, if you look closely, you can spot it. It is even better viewable with a fast risetime signal, and on 2nS/div....
We are talking about 500pSec. This dissapears if you change the trigger from ext to ch1 (at least on mine)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 20, 2014, 01:55:32 pm
Nice animated JPEG ! almost a real scope on your desktop :)
However I can see horizontal jitter, if you look closely, you can spot it. It is even better viewable with a fast risetime signal, and on 2nS/div....
We are talking about 500pSec. This dissapears if you change the trigger from ext to ch1 (at least on mine)

I just realized that you changed 500ns jitter to 500ps in a later post - a slight difference ;) - so, yes, there seems to be a jitter of ±500ps 250ps - i.e. one sample period.

EDIT: I think the jitter is ±250ps or 500ps in total - see attached GIF.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jlmoon on May 20, 2014, 02:23:30 pm
Just a matter of curiosity:

Has anyone determined the better of the two latest firmwares for the DS2000 series yet?  FW v2.xxxx or v3.xxxxx?
I just bought a DS2202 non A version and have the desire to unlock all the options but want to make sure I have the better (less buggy) of the firmwares in place first.
I have the HW level 1 version so I presume I will be stuck with 1M inputs which is no big deal. 

Thx

JLM
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 20, 2014, 03:07:36 pm
Has anyone determined the better of the two latest firmwares for the DS2000 series yet?  FW v2.xxxx or v3.xxxxx?
I just bought a DS2202 non A version and have the desire to unlock all the options but want to make sure I have the better (less buggy) of the firmwares in place first.

Well the v.3 FW is only a couple of weeks old, but I haven't discovered any major new bugs in it yet (and they fixed at least one from v.2). Since it adds new (IMO important) features, I'd recommend it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jlmoon on May 20, 2014, 03:43:43 pm
marmad,

Thank you, I took the plunge and performed the v3 update.. guess we shall see.. :) .. Thank you. 
so far, so good! 
what a great piece of equipment for the money, very impressive!

JLM
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: FrankenPC on May 20, 2014, 04:47:46 pm
marmad,

Thank you, I took the plunge and performed the v3 update.. guess we shall see.. :) .. Thank you. 
so far, so good! 
what a great piece of equipment for the money, very impressive!

JLM

If Rigol made a DS2074 version of this scope, it would be perfection.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jlmoon on May 20, 2014, 05:57:01 pm
Quote
If Rigol made a DS2074 version of this scope, it would be perfection.

Even a higher level of perfection would be a DS2304 with room to grow!.. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on May 20, 2014, 07:46:59 pm


If Rigol made a DS2074 version of this scope, it would be perfection.

Indeed i have, thats why i was looking at the ds1000, connected to a ds2000..!!, 6 channel DSO with lots of different timebases.

now i can compare two rubidiums clocks, a gps, a BBC4 and an other reference at the same time,
with different timebases for the rubidiums etc...

Fore more detail i look at the DS2000, for others i look at the DS1000

Works very well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Ivan7enych on May 21, 2014, 05:54:37 am
Even a higher level of perfection would be a DS2304 with room to grow!.. :)
A few members here have 2 Rigols and connect trig out/in.
Maybe it's called the 'Combo DS1/2306'
I don't think it's a good idea.
As I wrote here, Trig Out signal from DS2072 has very bad jitter.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=88871 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=88871)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 21, 2014, 11:08:52 am
I don't think it's a good idea.
As I wrote here, Trig Out signal from DS2072 has very bad jitter.
We had an in-depth discussion about the Trigger Out delay and jitter in this very thread over a year ago. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg224637/#msg224637) But these things can be compensated for when using the Trigger Out.

BTW, in response to something you wrote 2 months ago:

It seems, that Trig Out of 2072a is not hardware, but a kind of software (from FPGA logic) and it is suitable for low frequencies only, not higher than 1MHz I think.
The Trigger Out reflects the actual waveform capture rate of the DSO; it doesn't pass through triggers it doesn't use. As such, it's frequency will NEVER be higher than ~52kHz maximum. 


Indeed i have, thats why i was looking at the ds1000, connected to a ds2000..!!, 6 channel DSO with lots of different timebases.
@Wim13 - Which reminds me - what is the situation with the Trigger Out on the DS1000Z series? Less delay and/or jitter?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 21, 2014, 02:01:03 pm
BTW, now that the External Trigger input can be routed to the frequency counter - it makes it very easy to see the waveforms per second rate without using an external counter - or affecting the rate by turning on CH2.

Here is the Trigger Out (from a 1MHz square wave on CH1) being fed back into External Trigger In (and the frequency counter):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=94693)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on May 21, 2014, 03:30:33 pm
Quote
@Wim13 - Which reminds me - what is the situation with the Trigger Out on the DS1000Z series? Less delay and/or jitter?
Well I did some tests with a DS1072z trigger out to ext trigger in of the DS2072.
Input is a 2 MHz 10% pulse from a DG1032
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=94711)
From the screen of the DS2072 I measured a trigger out delay of abt 330 ns
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=94703)
You can see that there is jitter: about 8 ns. I experimented with several timebases, but these figures look to be constant.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=94705)
If you want both scopes together to act as a 6 channnel scope the delay can be corrected for, but the jitter means that for frequencies > say 1 MHz the jitter becomes annoying....
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 21, 2014, 04:03:13 pm
If you want both scopes together to act as a 6 channnel scope the delay can be corrected for, but the jitter means that for frequencies > say 1 MHz the jitter becomes annoying....

Thanks for the tests!

But I don't think the annoyance of the jitter would be related to the frequency of the input signal (or DUT). As mentioned before, the Trig.Out frequency is always < ~50kHz on the DS2000 - and < ~30kHz from the DS1000Z). Instead, I would think it's related to the time base setting of the DSO which is being triggered from the Trig.Out - in other words, if the time base of that DSO is set to 100ns/div or larger, the 8ns of jitter is < 1/10 a division (image #1), or scarcely noticeable - but if the time base is much smaller (e.g. 5ns/div), the jitter is a much larger percentage of the display (image #2).

Of course, the most accurate way to trigger two DSOs - if possible - is to send triggering signals from the DUT to both DSOs simultaneously - although that requires more setup.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on May 21, 2014, 05:22:57 pm

I never use the trigger outs, as Marmad said, just use one of the signals to trigger the other DSO also.

So i have 4 signals on the DS1000, and 1 of these signals is also connected to the ext trigger input of the DS2000


The jitter of the DS1000 is 8 nSec, independed of the input frequency, see picture below, displayed on the DS2000
the other signal is the orginal, that i can vary to any freq. the jitter will not change
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on May 21, 2014, 07:04:26 pm
But I don't think the annoyance of the jitter would be related to the frequency of the input signal (or DUT).
Yes of course, the jitter is always 8 ns, independent of the timebase and/or the observed waveform. What I meant to say is that (in my opinion) this method of locking both scopes is not very useful for displaying waveforms above (an arbitrary chosen frequency of say) 1 MHz as then 8 ns becomes a significant percentage of the analyzed and displayed frequency's period, resulting in a visible and annoying smear of the waveform.... For lower frequencies the jitter is just less or not at all visible.
But Wim's  method of syncing the scopes works much better.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 25, 2014, 11:30:27 am
Creating and Altering Masks to Search Frames on the Rigol DS2000/DS4000 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8dpWSvmAs#ws)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on May 25, 2014, 05:17:31 pm
Hi Marmad,
Thanks for this interesting video. I was just struggling with an I2C problem, and learned a few things how to optimise use of the segmented memory (bummer it will not decode in analyze mode, maybe in the next FW update?). Maybe I should fire up the hex editor.
Looking forward to seeing this functionality in RUU.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 25, 2014, 09:35:36 pm
Thanks for this interesting video. I was just struggling with an I2C problem, and learned a few things how to optimise use of the segmented memory (bummer it will not decode in analyze mode, maybe in the next FW update?). Maybe I should fire up the hex editor.
Looking forward to seeing this functionality in RUU.

You're welcome, pa3bca.

I think not-decoding in Analyze is a bug of some sort - the DSO seems to want to decode the data, but gets stuck on the 1st frame. But it might be my settings as well - I haven't spent much time playing around with different sample lengths (which would change the granularity of the data), so maybe a different size would yield different results. For now, I've just been making a mental note (or writing down) the match frames - then leaving Analyze and returing to normal Playback (where the decode works fine).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on May 25, 2014, 09:37:50 pm
Thanks Mark
That's a good trick to search recorded frames of data :-+
It is great that you will incorporate it in a future version of RUU.

Here is a tip to use with manual Hex editing; I think the hex editor will fill a selected data block with a given byte pattern. That is fill 240 bytes with  x' 21 3C E1 FF' repeated to fill the block, for example. That is what I used to patch Rigol waveform files. I hope that will help until RUU.
Thanks again.

You're welcome, Len.

Thanks for the tip with the hex editor - of course, it's so obvious   :D  It's been a long time since I used one and forgot the basic functionality  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on June 19, 2014, 04:34:51 pm
hey guys :)

could anyone please help me out (I hope one or all of these problems weren't asked yet, it would mean my search skillz suck)

kinda annoying and I don't know why this happens all of the sudden: I power off my DS2072(2302) normally and pull the plug. Now, whenever I put it back in the next day, the DSO resets itself (like it does after self cal for example)
how can I stop it doing that? (and why does it reset all settings after self cal, it's so annoying, too)
(I don't believe the backup battery only lasts 6 months or something like that ...)

the 2nd problem is about measuring. I try to measure/calibrate an ECG circuit, setting it to 5 mV/DIV. If I don't  use high res, it's really impossible to measure anything.
(I even tried avg@32 to be able to see a line on the DSO)
increasing the time base to something like 10 ... 100 ms/DIV makes the DSO totally slow, no matter what sample memory I select (the lesser the memory, the weaker the visibility of the curve on the screen)
I still remember my old HP DSO which was nothing compared to the Rigol and I was able to measure and display what I wanted to.
What do I have to do to get a nearly clear curve on screen?
I can't see an ECG curve on the Rigol because it refreshes so slowly :/

thanks so much for any help!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 19, 2014, 08:22:20 pm
kinda annoying and I don't know why this happens all of the sudden: I power off my DS2072(2302) normally and pull the plug. Now, whenever I put it back in the next day, the DSO resets itself (like it does after self cal for example)
Nikwing. , did you set power on to 'Last' and NOT. To 'Default'. In Util menu?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 19, 2014, 10:47:30 pm

the 2nd problem is about measuring. I try to measure/calibrate an ECG circuit, setting it to 5 mV/DIV. If I don't  use high res, it's really impossible to measure
You may wish to set intensity higher

Try to set trigger mode to normal and on each heart beat (trigger to large part)

Try recording and segmented memory
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 20, 2014, 06:23:27 am
@Nikwing
Is this what you like to see?  Here is 70 BPM for 70 Seconds.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 20, 2014, 07:46:46 am
@Nikwing

You may wish to try Roll mode at slow scan rate (10s/div)
then stop the scanning
and change Time Base faster to see more detail (100ms/div),
and scan though the stop display data for more detail
See : pics
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 20, 2014, 02:07:03 pm
@Nikwing
You may wish to try triggering on each Pulse and recording the frames
Here is an Animating '.Gif' of 60 pulses at 120BPM
The playback is at 5 frames per sec so that is =  2.5 times the actual pulses rate
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 20, 2014, 03:46:47 pm
@Nikwing
At this setting you can record 8128 Pulses
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on June 21, 2014, 03:13:20 pm
wow Teneyes :)

well, at first I try to measure just 5 mV to see if the gain stages work (using a 1:1 probe)
the curve is so "fat" that it's hard to see it move when I apply 5 mV to the circuit
I'm not yet to the point where I see a nicely looking heart beat like you show in your examples :o

I tried both, "default" and "last" in the settings, it happened with both (more than 1 try for both settings)
I'll give it another try :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 21, 2014, 03:26:46 pm
I tried both, "default" and "last" in the settings, it happened with both (more than 1 try for both settings)
I'll give it another try :)

Are you using FW v.3? If so, the new firmware has the new option 'Open' in the 'Power On' settings - although I have no idea exactly what it means. But you might try upgrading anyway, and see if it solves your problem.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on June 21, 2014, 03:39:27 pm
@Nikwing
  You may wish to try Limit BW to 20MHz to limit the noise.
and I think you will need an Amplifier to boost the 5 mv

Note to All: my displays of Cardiac pulses are from a Rigol DG4000 , using 16000Pts Arb Function (built in). All displays captured easily with Marmad's RUU (a Plug)
Title: Power on bug
Post by: Purevector on June 21, 2014, 07:24:16 pm
I think I may have found a bug.  Since upgrading to 3.00.01.03, whenever I plug in the scope, it automatically powers up.  Before it just used to fade the power button.  The power mode in the settings is Default, not Open.  I did try both.  Going back to V2 did not fix the issue.  When I turn the scope off and unplug it it takes a few seconds for the power led to completely turn off.  If I then plug the unit in, it boots up on its own.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 23, 2014, 06:53:44 pm
the 2nd problem is about measuring. I try to measure/calibrate an ECG circuit, setting it to 5 mV/DIV. If I don't  use high res, it's really impossible to measure anything.
  You shouldn't have a "fat" trace at 5mV/div (it should be about 1/10 a division.) If you unplug everything from the scope, is the trace still fat? If not, then you're letting noise in from somewhere and should adjust your measurement setup.  It's pretty easy to pick up 5mV of noise.

  How large is the signal you're looking for? In general,  if you're trying to measure anything smaller than ~2mV you should either be measuring something slow enough that you can use hires (I've captured a 100uVpp ripple this way) or you should use a preamplifier (and everything being amplified has to be super low noise.)

Quote
increasing the time base to something like 10 ... 100 ms/DIV makes the DSO totally slow, no matter what sample memory I select (the lesser the memory, the weaker the visibility of the curve on the screen)
I still remember my old HP DSO which was nothing compared to the Rigol and I was able to measure and display what I wanted to.
What do I have to do to get a nearly clear curve on screen?
I can't see an ECG curve on the Rigol because it refreshes so slowly :/

100ms/div means 1.4s per capture.  Has nothing to do with memory depth!  You have a couple of avenues to make your life easier here, but these time bases are always a bit clumsy because making adjustments (like vertical offset) clears the screen.

1) As others suggested, use roll mode.  This is what I usually do for my slow measurements (and I've had it all the way to 1000s/div!)  Hires is really good in roll mode.
2) Set the trigger point to exactly the left side of the screen. 

In normal y-t mode, the scope needs to have captured enough data to fill in from the beginning of the waveform to the trigger before it can actually trigger.  So if your trigger is in the center of the screen, and you're at 100ms/div, then the scope needs to have 700ms of data before it can arm the trigger.  By moving the trigger point to the left of the screen, the trigger can arm "immediately" after the previous waveform is captured.  When the time base is slow enough, the scope will even display the in-progress waveform, making it feel a lot more responsive.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jlmoon on June 23, 2014, 07:11:18 pm
Hello,
I know this might be a bit off topic, since we're discussing the 2000 series scopes,

Has anyone noticed any vertical amplifier offset (no signal applied with 50 ohm termination on input AC or DC coupling selected) in the range of 100 - 200 uV when in the 500uV / div range.  I also noticed that channel 1 has a bit more than channel 2.  My particular model is a DS2202, are we splitting hairs with a Chinese scope playing in the grass?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 23, 2014, 07:20:12 pm
1) As others suggested, use roll mode.  This is what I usually do for my slow measurements (and I've had it all the way to 1000s/div!)  Hires is really good in roll mode.

Peak detect is also very handy in roll mode.

Quote
2) Set the trigger point to exactly the left side of the screen. 

In normal y-t mode, the scope needs to have captured enough data to fill in from the beginning of the waveform to the trigger before it can actually trigger.  So if your trigger is in the center of the screen, and you're at 100ms/div, then the scope needs to have 700ms of data before it can arm the trigger.  By moving the trigger point to the left of the screen, the trigger can arm "immediately" after the previous waveform is captured.  When the time base is slow enough, the scope will even display the in-progress waveform, making it feel a lot more responsive.

This isn't precisely correct (although it works this way in many circumstances). In Y-T mode, the DSO captures the pre-trigger buffer data from the beginning of sample memory to the set trigger position - but sample memory doesn't always correspond to screen memory (what you see on the display). That's why there's the bar above the screen center - to show you how much of sample memory you're seeing - and your trigger position within it. In the attached screenshot, I have my trigger position set to screen left as you suggest - but it would still take 7 seconds before the buffer is filled (and I would start to see the trace). So you have to keep an eye on the location of your trigger position within the current sample memory depth - not just the screen memory.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 23, 2014, 07:31:15 pm
I know this might be a bit off topic, since we're discussing the 2000 series scopes,

Not off topic at all - questions like these are precisely the reason for the thread.  ;)

Has anyone noticed any vertical amplifier offset (no signal applied with 50 ohm termination on input AC or DC coupling selected) in the range of 100 - 200 uV when in the 500uV / div range.  I also noticed that channel 1 has a bit more than channel 2.  My particular model is a DS2202, are we splitting hairs with a Chinese scope playing in the grass?

Yes, I also have some offset at 500uV, but it's within the DSOs specs: ±0.1 div ± 2 mV ± 1% offset value

Keep in mind, 500uV is just a magnification of 1mV. So any offset at 1mV will just be doubled.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jlmoon on June 23, 2014, 08:17:56 pm
Okay  Marmad,

Thank you for your input, I had not referred to the the specs as of yet.  At 1mV & >  all is good.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on June 24, 2014, 12:33:47 am
In the attached screenshot, I have my trigger position set to screen left as you suggest - but it would still take 7 seconds before the buffer is filled (and I would start to see the trace). So you have to keep an eye on the location of your trigger position within the current sample memory depth - not just the screen memory.
Good catch.  To get the effect I was after, that means also choosing a memory depth so that the waveform is the entire screen.  That's what I get for giving usage advice away from my unit!  As another usability caution, you can actually set the trigger position to be far to the left of the waveform.  You want the "T" chevron to still be pointed down, not to the left.

Another tip that just occurred to me for measuring low frequency stuff like heartbeats is to turn on the bandwidth limit for that channel.  That'll probably cut the trace thickness in half.
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: Purevector on June 24, 2014, 12:41:00 pm
I think I may have found a bug.  Since upgrading to 3.00.01.03, whenever I plug in the scope, it automatically powers up.  Before it just used to fade the power button.  The power mode in the settings is Default, not Open.  I did try both.  Going back to V2 did not fix the issue.  When I turn the scope off and unplug it it takes a few seconds for the power led to completely turn off.  If I then plug the unit in, it boots up on its own.
I am pretty sure the newest firmware does not change the scope back to regular power on mode if it is changed to "open" mode. Has anyone tried this? Is there some way to report this to Rigol. The official 3.00 version doesn't have this setting so I am hesitate of simply writing to Rigol NA support.

Also, if there are any smart hackers out there that can figure out how to change the setting back, I would greatly appreciate it.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: Purevector on June 24, 2014, 04:37:37 pm
I went back to FW 00.01.00.05 and main power connect still starts my DS2072
I use SCPI command to get to LAST

That setting controls the setup information at startup; that's not what I'm talking about.  In 3.01 there is a new setting called PowerStatus (you can see if if you scroll to the next page)  The options are Open or Default.  According the newest DS2000 manual on the Rigol website, Open mode powers up the scope when you plug it in, and Default just "energizes" the unit and you have to press the power button to power on the scope.  I am stuck in Open mode after testing that setting and cannot get back to Default.  I can change the setting and it appears to save the value, but the scope still powers up by itself.

We just had a power failure last night and the scope was on this morning because of this.  I'll have to keep it unplugged to prevent it running if power is lost :(
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: f1rmb on June 24, 2014, 05:13:42 pm
Hi,

I went back to FW 00.01.00.05 and main power connect still starts my DS2072
I use SCPI command to get to LAST

That setting controls the setup information at startup; that's not what I'm talking about.  In 3.01 there is a new setting called PowerStatus (you can see if if you scroll to the next page)  The options are Open or Default.  According the newest DS2000 manual on the Rigol website, Open mode powers up the scope when you plug it in, and Default just "energizes" the unit and you have to press the power button to power on the scope.  I am stuck in Open mode after testing that setting and cannot get back to Default.  I can change the setting and it appears to save the value, but the scope still powers up by itself.

We just had a power failure last night and the scope was on this morning because of this.  I'll have to keep it unplugged to prevent it running if power is lost :(

  Have you tried to reset stored settings (you know, left function keys column, F6 button while powering up).

Cheers.
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: EV on June 24, 2014, 05:30:16 pm

That setting controls the setup information at startup; that's not what I'm talking about.  In 3.01 there is a new setting called PowerStatus (you can see if if you scroll to the next page)  The options are Open or Default.  According the newest DS2000 manual on the Rigol website, Open mode powers up the scope when you plug it in, and Default just "energizes" the unit and you have to press the power button to power on the scope.  I am stuck in Open mode after testing that setting and cannot get back to Default.  I can change the setting and it appears to save the value, but the scope still powers up by itself.

We just had a power failure last night and the scope was on this morning because of this.  I'll have to keep it unplugged to prevent it running if power is lost :(

Have you set also Utility-System-Power On-Last? Then the last settings should remain in use when you power on your scope.
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: Purevector on June 24, 2014, 05:35:33 pm

  Have you tried to reset stored settings (you know, left function keys column, F6 button while powering up).

Cheers.

Yep, I tried to reset using F6.  That was actually my first attempt at a fix.  I also tried to load the default values through the menu.

Also, Power On "last" and "Default" works as it's supposed to, but neither solves the automatic boot-up issue.

Are there any others who are having this same problem?
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: f1rmb on June 24, 2014, 06:23:19 pm

  Have you tried to reset stored settings (you know, left function keys column, F6 button while powering up).

Cheers.

Yep, I tried to reset using F6.  That was actually my first attempt at a fix.  I also tried to load the default values through the menu.

Also, Power On "last" and "Default" works as it's supposed to, but neither solves the automatic boot-up issue.

Are there any others who are having this same problem?

  Well, and what about reflashing the firmware ?

Cheers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Purevector on June 24, 2014, 06:40:48 pm
Reflashed a bunch of times to almost all of the available versions.  No change.
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: marmad on June 24, 2014, 06:59:04 pm
Yep, I tried to reset using F6.  That was actually my first attempt at a fix.  I also tried to load the default values through the menu.

Are you absolutely positive that you cleared the FRAM correctly with F6 during bootup? In other words, ALL of the previously saved settings (channels, image hardware, etc) were gone? If not - make sure you're certain before going further - for example, set something specifically, then clear the FRAM at bootup.

There is also 'Security Clear'- it will clear both the FRAM and NOR FLASH - which contains 'Firmware, Bin, Internal saving' (according to Rigol doc). The problem is, I don't know if it clears the bootloader or other vital data (calibration settings, model and serial number, etc) - but it might - which could leave you with a bricked DSO. So I strongly advise you should check with a Rigol representative/dealer before attempting it. If you're still sure you want to try it - I can post or PM you the method.
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: Purevector on June 24, 2014, 07:11:25 pm
Are you absolutely positive that you cleared the FRAM correctly with F6 during bootup? In other words, ALL of your settings (channels settings, image settings, etc) were gone? If not - make sure you're certain before going further - for example, set something specifically, then clear the FRAM at bootup.

There is also 'Security Clear'- it will clear both the FRAM and NOR FLASH - which contains 'Firmware, Bin, Internal saving' (according to Rigol doc). The problem is, I don't know if it clears the bootloader or other vital data (calibration settings, model and serial number, etc) - but I suspect it might - which could leave you with a bricked DSO. So I strongly advise you should check with a Rigol representative/dealer before attempting it. If you're still sure you want to try it - I can post or PM you the method.

I am pretty sure the F6 clear worked.  I did it a few times.  I tried it just holding down F6, and also by repeatedly pressing it during bootup.  Both times the channel settings reset to default as did a few settings I changed in the setup.

The security clear sounds promising... and dangerous.  I'm not sure I really want to risk a brick over this.  I'm assuming that it is not just my unit doing this, so Rigol should fix it in a future firmware, hopefully. 
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: marmad on June 24, 2014, 07:17:15 pm
The security clear sounds promising... and dangerous.  I'm not sure I really want to risk a brick over this.  I'm assuming that it is not just my unit doing this, so Rigol should fix it in a future firmware, hopefully.

Well, contact the person/company you bought your DSO from, tell them your problem, and ask them if using Security Clear might work for you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MattSR on June 24, 2014, 10:32:28 pm
Speaking of which - where is the best/cheapest place to buy Rigol scopes? I'm in the market for a 2072 as well.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on June 24, 2014, 11:47:33 pm
Speaking of which - where is the best/cheapest place to buy Rigol scopes? I'm in the market for a 2072 as well.
If you are in the US and maybe they supply to other countries (not sure), I'll recommend tequipment.net

I got mine from tequipment.net they have a discount for EEVBlog I believe is 6%, his username in the forum is:
tequipment (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=690) send him a PM to get the code.

I won't say they are perfect but they seem to come through at the end. Shipping was pretty quick for me but I never had any problems with my scope. So I can't speak of post sales support.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MattSR on June 24, 2014, 11:52:07 pm
Excellent, thanks mate!


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MattSR on June 25, 2014, 12:11:37 am
Excellent, thanks mate!


Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: Purevector on June 25, 2014, 12:45:46 am
The security clear sounds promising... and dangerous.  I'm not sure I really want to risk a brick over this.  I'm assuming that it is not just my unit doing this, so Rigol should fix it in a future firmware, hopefully.

Well, contact the person/company you bought your DSO from, tell them your problem, and ask them if using Security Clear might work for you.

I did the Security Clear, and still no change.  I'm starting to think there may be something wrong with my scope.  I'd love to hear if anyone else experiences the same behavior.
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: marmad on June 25, 2014, 12:48:16 am
I did the Security Clear, and still no change.  I'm starting to think there may be something wrong with my scope.  I'd love to hear if anyone else experiences the same behavior.

My DSO doesn't turn on when I plug it in - OTOH, I have an original DS2000 - not an A-series.
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: Purevector on June 25, 2014, 12:50:45 am
Also, if there are any smart hackers out there that can figure out how to change the setting back, I would greatly appreciate it.

Cheers.

I went back to FW 00.01.00.05 and main power connect still starts my DS2072
I use SCPI command to get to LAST

Teneyes, are you telling me that when you plug in your scope it automatically powers up?
Title: Re: Power on bug
Post by: marmad on June 25, 2014, 12:58:29 am
I did the Security Clear, and still no change.  I'm starting to think there may be something wrong with my scope.  I'd love to hear if anyone else experiences the same behavior.

Not to bust your balls or anything, but it does seem that you're perhaps more concerned with this than you need to be. How often does the power fail where your DSO is? And as long as you have the screensaver set to run, I'm not sure it makes that much difference. I'm using my DS2000 heavily - it's often on all day long for days on end (and I've had it for 20 months).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Purevector on June 25, 2014, 01:07:51 am
Yeah, it's not a big deal, I agree, but along with not being able to unlock 300MHz, I'm just wondering if there is a hardware issue with my scope.  Anyway, I'll drop it now   ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 25, 2014, 01:17:44 am
Yeah, it's not a big deal, I agree, but along with not being able to unlock 300MHz, I'm just wondering if there is a hardware issue with my scope.  Anyway, I'll drop it now   ;)

There's probably a SCPI command for it - and if so, that might work. But even though Rigol has released a new user's manual for the newest v.3 firmware - there's still no new programming guide (as far as I can tell). You could try the following guesses from Ultra Sigma, since sending incorrect commands doesn't cause any harm - and the DSO will display on the screen whether it's accepted the command or not.

The :SYSTem:PON command is to set 'power on', so I'm guessing that POS or PST might be 'power status'. Try:

:SYSTem:POS DEF

and

:SYSTem:PST DEF
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Purevector on June 25, 2014, 01:37:18 am
There's probably a SCPI command for it - and if so, that might work. But even though Rigol has released a new user's manual for the newest v.3 firmware - there's still no new programming guide (as far as I can tell). You could try the following guesses from Ultra Sigma, since sending incorrect commands doesn't cause any harm - and the DSO will display on the screen whether it's accepted the command or not.

The :SYSTem:PON command is to set 'power on', so I'm guessing that POS or PST might be 'power status'. Try:

:SYSTem:POS DEF

and

:SYSTem:PST DEF

:SYSTem:PST DEF is correct, but it still does not change the behavior.  I'll contact Rigol and if nothing comes of it, I'll just live with it.  Now if we could just figure out what's going on with the 300MHz randomness.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 25, 2014, 01:47:29 am
:SYSTem:PST DEF is correct, but it still does not change the behavior.  I'll contact Rigol and if nothing comes of it, I'll just live with it.  Now if we could just figure out what's going on with the 300MHz randomness.

I've been using my DS2000 heavily the last few weeks, and about a week and a half ago it just started to hang constantly - requiring reboot after reboot (some combination of settings - I think I was using Roll mode). It got so bad, I was starting to think that I'd had some kind of failure - but first I downgraded to FW v.2 and uninstalled 300MHz, and since then, it's been absolutely fine - not a single crash. I still haven't re-installed v.3 again to check if it was specifically that or the 300MHz option causing the problem, but I can certainly report that FW v.3 with the 300MHz option installed is definitely NOT stable.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Purevector on June 25, 2014, 03:45:28 am
I've been using my DS2000 heavily the last few weeks, and about a week and a half ago it just started to hang constantly - requiring reboot after reboot (some combination of settings - I think I was using Roll mode). It got so bad, I was starting to think that I'd had some kind of failure - but first I downgraded to FW v.2 and uninstalled 300MHz, and since then, it's been absolutely fine - not a single crash. I still haven't re-installed v.3 again to check if it was specifically that or the 300MHz option causing the problem, but I can certainly report that FW v.3 with the 300MHz option installed is definitely NOT stable.

That may very well be the case, but I just finished playing around with the scope and I found two interesting codes: NS89 does all options +100 +200 +300 MHz, and NS8N does all options - 56M + 300MHz.  Is there some kind of rhyme or reason to the codes?  Maybe there is another code for all options +300MHz.  The other question is, would the NS89 code work just as well?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dougbert on June 29, 2014, 02:20:47 am
But even though Rigol has released a new user's manual for the newest v.3 firmware - there's still no new programming guide (as far as I can tell).

Where can I get a copy of the updated manual?

Thanks,
Doug
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on June 29, 2014, 09:46:40 am

On the Rigol site i   find:
http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/document/ (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000A/document/)


DS2000A User's Guide            2013-12-02   
MSO/DS2000A DataSheet       2014-06-09   
DS2000A Quick Guide              2014-02-19   
DS2000A Programming Guide    2013-10-08   

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on June 29, 2014, 06:47:28 pm
wow, so much to read since last time ^^

thanks guys, that helped me a lot!
I have some noise, yes, unplugging the probe shows a clean line on screen
(oh and I also use the bw/ limit, too)

I didn't try the new fw yet, but I'll look for "what's new" postings 1st :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on July 04, 2014, 07:41:34 am
Somewhere hidden in this large thread there was the information that the DS2000 should better not be pimped to more than 200 Mhz; thus 300 Mhz should be avoided.

Maybe that has changed in the meantime.
Is this still true with the DS2000A? Should 200Mhz be maximum or is 300Mhz now save (newer hardware, newer firmware)?

Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: mohandes on July 05, 2014, 01:26:35 pm
hi to all guru
any people here have SDS2072 and DS2072 ? i want if have it take photo in test with same wave in both and set here.
regards
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 09, 2014, 02:59:31 pm
Hi All, 
In the past when I would insert a USB stick with a DS2000 '.GEL' file the DSO would display the version number and prompt "OK" to install ,but now It will only prompt if it is a new FW version. see Pix.
Has anyone else seen this?
When I go back to older version (boot/help), I do not get the update prompt just the 'USB device detected'.

  Also
Has anyone ever seen  all:
       100M
       200M
       300M Bandwidth  options displayed like in Pix
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on July 09, 2014, 06:13:17 pm
Hi All, 
In the past when I would insert a USB stick with a DS2000 '.GEL' file the DSO would display the version number and prompt "OK" to install ,but now It will only prompt if it is a new FW version. see Pix.
Has anyone else seen this?
When I go back to older version (boot/help), I do not get the update prompt just the 'USB device detected'.

  Also
Has anyone ever seen  all:
       100M
       200M
       300M Bandwidth  options displayed like in Pix

     Teneyes:

Re. first item (with USB Drive inserted: Yes I see this also now.

Re. second item (with 100MHz, 200MHz, and 300MHz:  Yes you will have this if you install the 100MHz BW, 200MHz BW, and them the 300MHz BW Options in that order.  What I like about this is having the standard 20MHz BW Limit, plus !00MHz BW Limit, and possibly 200MHz BW Limit available if 300MHz is installed.  Had you noticed the added BW Limit functions?

Do you have a DS2000 (non A version?), and if so is the 300MHz Option working OK for you?  Please see 'marmad's post in Reply #2524 at >  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg467738/#msg467738 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg467738/#msg467738)
Have you experienced this?  I have a DS2000 (non A) and I had NOT seen this issue, so I'm wondering if he may have had something else wrong, such as having settings with Power Up set for 'Last', rather than 'Default', which can result in getting into a loop of unsuccessful reboots if you experience a lockup, or an insidious fault condition.

Anyway I removed the 300MHz BW Option for now until I hear more about this form either 'marmad' or others.

The DS2000A is fine with the 300MHz BW Option, and I thought that the DS2000 (non A) was also OK now starting with Firmware v.3 until I saw 'marmad's' post.


    marmad:

I would appreciate hearing more from you on the issues you had. Have you learned anything else since your experiences with the DS2000, FR v.3, and the 300MHz BW Option?

   Thank you for any information you can add since your post in Reply 2524, Ted552
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 10, 2014, 02:20:05 pm
    marmad:

I would appreciate hearing more from you on the issues you had. Have you learned anything else since your experiences with the DS2000, FR v.3, and the 300MHz BW Option?

   Thank you for any information you can add since your post in Reply 2524, Ted552

To clarify some things (and I posted this over at the 'Sniffing' thread, too):

First of all - in respect to using the "300MHz" BW option - it makes NO difference if you have a DS2000 or DS/MSO2000A - other than you have the 50 ohm input impedance choice. Aside from that, as far as I've seen, Rigol did not make any major changes to the front-end.

Secondly, to all the people who believe they are magically getting a perfectly-capable "300MHz" DSO just because they put in some option codes: look at all the DSO models from highly-respected test-equipment manufacturers (Agilent, Hameg, Tektronix, etc) - do you see any 2GSa/s DSOs with a higher than 200MHz BW? No, you don't - because there are mathematical reasons why it doesn't really work well. Rigol (and the other Chinese companies) have not invented some new wonderful method for squeezing more BW out of less sample rate - they are, in fact, delivering DSOs that will have problems reproducing those kind of BW waveforms accurately at certain settings (i.e. both channels on) - period.

As long as you understand these problems, fine. But again: they are identical for both DS2000 and DS2000A - it doesn't matter which model you have.

[Additional]:
Now, in terms of the continual hanging problem - I haven't seen it happen again since I removed the 300MHz option and downgraded to v.2 - then upgraded back to v.3 later after my work was done. But I was working with Roll mode and some rather atypical settings - so it's possible that the same settings with v.3 but without 300MHz would also cause the hanging - I just haven't been able to reproduce it since. So at this point, it's unknown if it's just a bug that exists in v.3 with certain settings - or is linked to 300MHz option being installed. But I have to say, before I ever began using the 300MHz option, the DS2000 crashed or hung fairly infrequently - but it's happened many more times with it installed. But more info is definitely needed to pinpoint the source of this problem.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 10, 2014, 03:37:18 pm
If you  install the 300MHz option on a DS2000, your scope's rise-time is indeed lowered, however you also gain a fair amount of overshoot on pulses. The overshoot measured with a TEK 284 (70 pico sec. step) was in the order of 15%. So I decided that this is not acceptable for me, and turned it off.

The front end of a DS2000 is simply not designed to cope with this. Therefore Rigol has limited the bandwidth of the first preamp.
I don't know about the DS2000A models, I never measured them.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on July 10, 2014, 07:44:00 pm
Install - Uninstall Rigol's Options using UltraSigma
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: darrylp on July 11, 2014, 11:51:34 am
If you  install the 300MHz option on a DS2000, your scope's rise-time is indeed lowered, however you also gain a fair amount of overshoot on pulses. The overshoot measured with a TEK 284 (70 pico sec. step) was in the order of 15%. So I decided that this is not acceptable for me, and turned it off.

this 15% more overshoot is from the 200MHz set DS2000,  but until you know what the rise signal should look like ( measured on a much higher bandwidth scope ) then maybe seeing an overshoot increase is actually right ?   the lower bandwidth just wouldn't have the ability to capture it ?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on July 11, 2014, 12:41:20 pm
    marmad:

I would appreciate hearing more from you on the issues you had. Have you learned anything else since your experiences with the DS2000, FR v.3, and the 300MHz BW Option?

   Thank you for any information you can add since your post in Reply 2524, Ted552

[Additional]:
Now, in terms of the continual hanging problem - I haven't seen it happen again since I removed the 300MHz option and downgraded to v.2 - then upgraded back to v.3 later after my work was done. But I was working with Roll mode and some rather atypical settings - so it's possible that the same settings with v.3 but without 300MHz would also cause the hanging - I just haven't been able to reproduce it since. So at this point, it's unknown if it's just a bug that exists in v.3 with certain settings - or is linked to 300MHz option being installed. But I have to say, before I ever began using the 300MHz option, the DS2000 crashed or hung fairly infrequently - but it's happened many more times with it installed. But more info is definitely needed to pinpoint the source of this problem.

Thank you very much 'marmad' for the detailed information you provided.  I'm very grateful for all the work you have done with the DS2000, etc. and so generously shared with us.

    Thanks again, Ted572   
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 11, 2014, 08:22:25 pm
If you  install the 300MHz option on a DS2000, your scope's rise-time is indeed lowered, however you also gain a fair amount of overshoot on pulses. The overshoot measured with a TEK 284 (70 pico sec. step) was in the order of 15%. So I decided that this is not acceptable for me, and turned it off.

this 15% more overshoot is from the 200MHz set DS2000,  but until you know what the rise signal should look like ( measured on a much higher bandwidth scope ) then maybe seeing an overshoot increase is actually right ?   the lower bandwidth just wouldn't have the ability to capture it ?
Not in this case; the Tek 284 has no overshoot and a rise time of 70 ps.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 11, 2014, 09:21:08 pm
this 15% more overshoot is from the 200MHz set DS2000,  but until you know what the rise signal should look like ( measured on a much higher bandwidth scope ) then maybe seeing an overshoot increase is actually right ?   the lower bandwidth just wouldn't have the ability to capture it ?
Not in this case; the Tek 284 has no overshoot and a rise time of 70 ps.

I wish to point out something that is important to this discussion.
A Rigol DSO user must be aware of the SInx/x interpolation

Below I show you 2 displays, and ask "Which is Better??? ":-//

Check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_phenomenon
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 11, 2014, 09:30:44 pm
"Which is Better??? ":-//

As you can see by the flat traces that I manually created the data for the waveforms and re-loaded the sample data into the DSO and the DSO created the Traces, always with SinX/X interpolation.

 
1.  In the first display the sample data is at one level and then jumps to  the Higher level in one sample period (500ps).
 NOTE how the SinX/X interpolation displays  a pre and post step ringing.

To explain in more detail. I saved a waveform file from the DS2000 (at 140pts/disp)) to a USB Stick.
I then transfered this file to a PC. I then used a Hex Editor to put in the Sample data into the files that I wanted the DSO to Display. , There is NO real voltages measurement Data.
I set the first 70 data samples for 1 div above the bottom of the display
then
I set next 70 data samples for 1 div below  the top of the display.
I then loaded the waveform file into the DSO (w/USB)
The ringing you see is the result of the DSO trying to make a sine wave with the SinX/X interpolation function. between the 140 Data Points at 500ps intervals


2. In the second display the step change of level was created for a smoothly change to resrtiction the SinX/X effect.
   See the Dot Samples in this Display.
You can see the Dots are a gradual curve at the bottom and top of the Step change in the Sample Data.

I think a lot of the overshoot when displaying a step change is the SinX/X function. A user has to look at where the sample dots are to determine if there was a real indication of overshoot.
The #1 display shows a 10% overshoot when there was absolutely Zero overshoot !

As for the Front end BW of the DS2000 we know that there is a Programmable BW Amplifier that has the selections of 20,100,200,350,650 and 750 MHz so I assume 300MHZ option opens up the BW to 350MHz

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 12, 2014, 08:44:39 am
I hope the last 2 posts were Helpful. I'm not getting any questions or comments??

See pix for OLD wfm data for #2 display.  x'1B'=1 div,   x'B1'= 7 div
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on July 12, 2014, 09:08:17 am
I think you explained it so well, no one has questions  :-+

I agree on the phantom ringing, and dot mode usually shows you what is real vs what is extrapolated in vector mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 12, 2014, 09:37:15 am
"Which is Better??? ":-//

As you can see by the flat traces that I manually created the data for the waveforms and re-loaded the sample data into the DSO and the DSO created the Traces, always with SinX/X interpolation.

 
1.  In the first display the sample data is at one level and then jumps to  the Higher level in one sample period (500ns).
 NOTE how the SinX/X interpolation displays  a pre and post step ringing.

To explain in more detail. I saved a waveform file from the DS2000 (at 140pts/disp)) to a USB Stick.
I then transfered this file to a PC. I then used a Hex Editor to put in the Sample data into the files that I wanted the DSO to Display. , There is NO real voltages measurement Data.
I set the first 70 data samples for 1 div above the bottom of the display
then
I set next 70 data samples for 1 div below  the top of the display.
I then loaded the waveform file into the DSO (w/USB)
The ringing you see is the result of the DSO trying to make a sine wave with the SinX/X interpolation function.


2. In the second display the step change of level was created for a smoothly change to resrtiction the SinX/X effect.
   See the Dot Samples in this Display.
You can see the Dots are a gradual curve at the bottom and top of the Step change in the Sample Data.

I think a lot of the overshoot when displaying a step change is the SinX/X function. A user has to look at where the sample dots are to determine if there was a real indication of overshoot.
The #1 display shows a 10% overshoot when there was absolutely Zero overshoot !

As for the Front end BW of the DS2000 we know that there is a Programmable BW Amplifier that has the selections of 20,100,200,350,650 and 750 MHz so I assume 300MHZ option opens up the BW to 350MHz

I  made test already a year ago; see post
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg247223/#msg247223 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg247223/#msg247223)

first picture.

This is NOT due to Sin X/ X interpolation. Besides that, the sin interpolation is only done between sample points.....
The first picture in this post was done running the scope bandwidth at 200MHz. you can already see how much overshoot it has. Test done at 300MHz show even more overshoot. NOT due to sin interpolation.
Another point is that if this was due to sin interpolation you would see the same overshoot/undershoot on the start of the pulse. This is clearly not the case on picture from my earlier post.

I'm not sure why people want to believe that that a $850 scope can measure 300MHz without severe signal distortion.....

For people that doubt my signal generator, it was checked with other equipment (1 GHz sampling system).
I have seen similar responses from a guy from Finland and those screen shots look very similar also with the same generator a Tektronix 284.

So as far I'm concerned this myth has been busted for the DS2000 series  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on July 12, 2014, 05:18:45 pm
This is NOT due to Sin X/ X interpolation. Besides that, the sin interpolation is only done between sample points.....
The first picture in this post was done running the scope bandwidth at 200MHz. you can already see how much overshoot it has. Test done at 300MHz show even more overshoot. NOT due to sin interpolation.
.......
So as far I'm concerned this myth has been busted for the DS2000 series  :)

Thanks Orange.
I think you tested on the DS2072 Non-A , with older Firmware
My displays indicate nothing about the Analog specifications of the DSO.

Yes the vector display follows thorough the sample points and (SinX/X is used between data points)

I may have missed the post, is there any difference in the front end of the DS2000A to improve the spec.? (higher BW)  Although the latest FW allows the option for DS2302 (300MHz), was there any changes to the frontend in the DS2000A hardware for a faster response (with what overshoot??)

Besides Rigol sales , I doubt anyone has both DS2000 and DS2000A to do a test with same pulse.
and with only a few sample points/div  I think it would be hard to determine any difference when testing at the limits of the DSO specifications.

Just thinking,why I like 1ns/div?   I am old  :( and slow to multiple by 2, for 2ns/div   ;D
Well that's a good question. I would assume that Rigol has adapted the front-end of the new DS2000A to compensate for the excessive overshoot with the 300MHz model. But I don't know for sure, I don't own one.

Reading lately other attempts of using the old firmware I think Rigol has changed the boot loader on the very latest production.  A new patched firmware is needed to get the serial number out of the 'dark places' of the scope.
Hopefully the guy's that did the patch of the firmware are still reading this, and will consider a newly patched firmware based up-on 3.01SP1

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 12, 2014, 05:29:34 pm
Well that's a good question. I would assume that Rigol has adapted the front-end of the new DS2000A to compensate for the excessive overshoot with the 300MHz model. But I don't know for sure, I don't own one.

Comparing pictures of the front ends from original DS2000 to HW v.2/early Model A show very little change (aside from the 50 Ohm impedance switch), although it's possible they've made further changes since.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: othello on July 13, 2014, 02:11:29 am
Hello All,

Can anyone be so kind and advise if i should upgrade to new firmware on my Rigol DS2202 ? It still has the original firmware and works fine as far as i can see. Now there are multiple firmware versions available but not sure if there is any advantage in upgrading. I do not wish to cripple what works with newer firmware so please feel free to let me know if it's worth the hassle.

Current firmware:

SW Version: 00.00.01
HW version: 1.0

Thank you !
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: othello on July 13, 2014, 03:22:03 pm
@ Othello
     You may wish to check the full firmware Version (see 3rd post here for -  F7 F6 F7 Util)
if you are at 00.00.01.00.05 then Yes update FW
See bug list ( post #3). you can always go back.

Thank you, i've updated to the latest firmware. I saw there was some known issue with CAN but i don't have that feature so it's no problem. Everything went smooth !
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 17, 2014, 07:59:18 pm
On a lighter side
A Rigol tames a wild One
      yes wild
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 17, 2014, 08:23:46 pm
On a lighter side
A Rigol tames a wild One
      yes wild

Nice - it got me wondering just exactly how you set up that shoot  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: chickenHeadKnob on July 17, 2014, 08:32:41 pm
@Teneyes: I am guessing you live in the toronto area. Smartest Racoon's in the world, probably an urban sub-species by now. They got that way from the evolutionary pressure of having to figure out how to break into peoples garbage. Not sure what that says about Rigol. Maybe a future Rigol hacker enhancer in the making?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on July 17, 2014, 08:57:51 pm
@Teneyes: I am guessing you live in the toronto area.

I think he's about 4000km west of Toronto.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Rory on July 17, 2014, 10:12:17 pm
@Teneyes: I am guessing you live in the toronto area.

I think he's about 4000km west of Toronto.
And about a kilometer higher in elevation too. Lovely place, wondering if we have time to visit next month.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on July 18, 2014, 05:22:25 am
On a lighter side
A Rigol tames a wild One
      yes wild

Very fun Teneyes!  Thanks for the post!  :D  I hope your DS2000 didn't get too banged up by the furry admirer! 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on July 18, 2014, 03:29:51 pm
Rigol appreciates
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 21, 2014, 10:21:45 am
Video comparison of the Rigol DS2000 and the new Siglent SDS2000 series here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-siglent-sds2304-a-comparison-of-features-with-rigol-ds2000-series/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-siglent-sds2304-a-comparison-of-features-with-rigol-ds2000-series/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 21, 2014, 07:32:10 pm
Video comparison of the Rigol DS2000 and the new Siglent SDS2000 series here:
It would be interested to see if the fuzzy traces with 2 channel at fast scan rates shows on the Siglent like the latest DS2000 FW. With and without SinX/X?.
On the Rigol it seems to me to be related to SinX/X and intensity levels. That have changed on latest Rigol firmware releases.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 22, 2014, 09:31:38 am
It would be interested to see if the fuzzy traces with 2 channel at fast scan rates shows on the Siglent like the latest DS2000 FW. With and without SinX/X?.
On the Rigol it seems to me to be related to SinX/X and intensity levels. That have changed on latest Rigol firmware releases.

No problem, Teneyes. I have the Siglent for a couple of more days, so I can post some images. Can you please tell me exactly what you want to see; e.g. test signal, timebase, etc.?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 25, 2014, 07:54:27 am
A while back , WIM13 noted that the traces are a bit more fuzzy when 2 channels were on after the last few FW updates.  This is with FW 00.03.00.01.03

1 , 2   Bellow I show Chan 1 Only in Vectors and Dots with 70 MHz sinewave input

3 , 4   I then show both Channels 1 & 2 on, in dots and Vectors

5       Then I show a close up of the input and the noise appears to be some sort of sine wave on the traces
6        50msec Persistence

Could this be SinX/X extrapolation??
It would nice to be able to turn off SinX/X .

or is a change in the Intensity levels with no change in the min. persistence calculation?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 25, 2014, 08:29:04 am
Fuzzy Traces
here I show fuzzy traces at Persistence settings of   Min,  50ms,  100ms  , 200ms. 500ms
It looks like Min. Presistence is set to an incorrect value!!!
and is about 200ms
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 25, 2014, 06:46:39 pm
There also looks like an Error on the other end of the Persistence settings, It looks like there are different processing for these two settings
Below I show settings of 20 seconds and Infinite Persistence
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 25, 2014, 07:19:32 pm
Could this be SinX/X extrapolation??
It would nice to be able to turn off SinX/X .

I can't replicate this particular error on my Rigol, so I'm not sure what is causing it.

Quote
Fuzzy Traces

The Siglent changes the grading a bit when when turning on more channels, but not nearly as much as the Rigol. In fact, the intensity grading on the Siglent is really quite beautiful - much better, in general, than the Rigol. I'm going to make an extra short video just about the intensity grading and post it in the next couple of days.

Quote
It looks like Min. Presistence is set to an incorrect value!!!
and is about 200ms

Min. persistence is zero persistence - just intensity grading. And even though both intensity grading and persistence produce the same visual effect of shades of color, they are calculated and graded differently (although I don't know exactly how Rigol is doing it).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 25, 2014, 08:16:14 pm
Could this be SinX/X extrapolation??
It would nice to be able to turn off SinX/X .
I can't replicate this particular error on my Rigol, so I'm not sure what is causing it.
to Clarify , the setup is :
    FW 00.03.00.01.03
    300MHz options, all Options installed??
    mostly observed on 5nsec/div
    70 MHz input
    2 channels On
    Memory Depth = 28MPts, , AUto sets to 700 Pts and Blurs  traces
    Single scan to show ripple  (less ripples with only 1 chan on)

DIsplays with DOts and Vectors at Infinite Persiostence
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 25, 2014, 09:16:15 pm
    70 MHz input

It has to be a 70MHz input @5ns/div? That seems like a pretty specific bug  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 26, 2014, 06:37:14 am
It has to be a 70MHz input @5ns/div? That seems like a pretty specific bug  ;D
Well   ;D, It shows on the peaks of 30-120 Mhz, and more at 5ns/div.
I say it is a quirk of the SinX/X implementation

I un-installed all Options an only added 56MPts back

Here are Gifs. , of Vectors and Dots Recording  with 50MHz input ON FW00.03
Note how the dots are follow on the sin curve but in VECTORS there is a rolling ripple of 1 GHz !!   :-//

The next Post will be on FW 00.01
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on August 26, 2014, 06:50:44 am
Here are Gifs. , of Vectors and Dots Recording  with 50MHz input ON FW00.01
Note how the dots are follow on the sin curve but in VECTORS there is less ripple
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 26, 2014, 12:48:48 pm
Note how the dots are follow on the sin curve but in VECTORS ther is a rolling ripple of 1 GHz !!

OK, I see it now. No, I don't see any evidence of this happening on the Siglent.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on September 13, 2014, 11:54:45 pm
The new Rigol 2014 DS2000 Performance Verification Guide:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: miguelvp on September 14, 2014, 12:51:24 am
The new Rigol 2014 DS2000 Performance Verification Guide:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf)

Thank you!
Now where do I get $28K to get a Fluke 9500B :)
Kidding I know you can rent them but it probably cost as much as my Rigol to rent it for one day.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on September 14, 2014, 01:10:31 am
The new Rigol 2014 DS2000 Performance Verification Guide:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf)

Thanks, Ted. Regardless of the 2014 date on the cover, it seems slightly dated (there's a 2012 copyright inside), although I imagine the verification routines are (mostly) still valid. It keeps referring to the model as DS2000 (the DS2000 exists no longer; there is now only the DS2000A) and it doesn't mention the 300MHz BW DS2302A.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on September 16, 2014, 07:17:52 pm
Thanks, Ted. Regardless of the 2014 date on the cover, it seems slightly dated (there's a 2012 copyright inside), although I imagine the verification routines are (mostly) still valid. It keeps referring to the model as DS2000 (the DS2000 exists no longer; there is now only the DS2000A) and it doesn't mention the 300MHz BW DS2302A.
[/quote]

Hi marmad:

Yes it is for the DS2000 (non A) that we have.  They are still working on the newer DS2000A document.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on September 19, 2014, 01:21:29 am
My DS2072, did a single shot trace this morning at 2 sec/div. Waited till it said "WAIT" (confusing, means scope is waiting for trigger, not for you to wait...) then switched my cct on and this caused a trigger because it said "TRG" or suchlike, can't remember now, then eventually after maybe 20 seconds or so it said "STOP" in red. After about five minutes there was still nothing displaying on the screen so I moved the time/div kob back and forth one click and BYU there was my trace! Interestingly, it didn't start right on the trigger point but about 2.5mm to the right.

This display not showing up immediately only seems to happen at slower sweep speeds; high speed ones appear as soon as the scan is finished. Not sure what the borderline between high and low speed is yet though. Just that at 2 sec/div it acted up. Any ideas?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on September 19, 2014, 02:41:17 pm
Not sure what the borderline between high and low speed is yet though. Just that at 2 sec/div it acted up. Any ideas?
[/quote] You notice the delay when at about 2 seconds, the DS2000 collects data point before the trigger event.  the trace is not displayed until the trigger occurs, so I put the trigger point on the left side of the display for slow scan rates.  Try putting the trigger point on the Right and time the delay from the "RUN" indication until the trace is displayed at 500ms/div. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on September 19, 2014, 03:18:12 pm
My DS2072, did a single shot trace this morning at 2 sec/div. Waited till it said "WAIT" (confusing, means scope is waiting for trigger, not for you to wait...) then switched my cct on and this caused a trigger because it said "TRG" or suchlike, can't remember now, then eventually after maybe 20 seconds or so it said "STOP" in red. After about five minutes there was still nothing displaying on the screen so I moved the time/div kob back and forth one click and BYU there was my trace! Interestingly, it didn't start right on the trigger point but about 2.5mm to the right.

This display not showing up immediately only seems to happen at slower sweep speeds; high speed ones appear as soon as the scan is finished. Not sure what the borderline between high and low speed is yet though. Just that at 2 sec/div it acted up. Any ideas?

The length of time it takes to be ready for a trigger (WAIT) and then display the acquisition is a function of the time base setting * 14 -OR- memory depth * sample speed, whichever is longer. The trigger position affects the division of that length of time. Did you ever wonder what that display graphic at the top center of the screen was for?

Examine the following 5 images - all made at 1s/div. Pay attention to memory depth, the graphic at the top center of screen, and the WAIT/DISPLAY times which I have scribbled in:
1) 14k sample size and center trigger position.
2) 14M sample size and center trigger position.
3) 14M sample size and left trigger position.
2) 56M sample size and center trigger position.
3) 56M sample size and left trigger position.

EDIT: BTW, posting USB screen captures when you have problems would help us point out what mistake you're making.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on September 20, 2014, 06:04:27 am
BTW, posting USB screen captures when you have problems would help us point out what mistake you're making.
@Circlotron
  Yes, Screen displays are helpfull ,and I like using Marmad's RUU software;
as it is fast and can create GIFs to show recorded displays, with Menu on side to show settings
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on September 20, 2014, 11:24:44 am
Okay, the image names should tell the story.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on September 20, 2014, 12:31:05 pm
Okay, the image names should tell the story.

Ahh... High Res mode. Do you realize that when you use High Res mode at 2s/div (and 14k mem.depth), the bandwidth of your scope is 14Hz? Just to emphasize: the bandwidth of your DSO using High Res mode at 2s/div and 14k mem.depth is not 70MHz - and not even 50Hz (500Sa/10) -- it's 13.75 Hertz. That hardly seems usable for most things - and might cause the DSO to act strangely, since that mode is not really designed to be used at such slow time bases (High Res is basically useful from 500ns/div to about 10ms/div).

High Res mode is sample averaging, so when using it at any time base slower than 5us/div, you're going to want to have your memory depth set to 14M or AUTO for the best results - but even using 14M @ 2s/div, your BW is still only going to be 21.5Hz.

Anyway, I tested your setup (High Res mode @ 2s/div w/14k) but it works fine on my DS2000 - the trace appears on the display as soon as it's triggered just like it's supposed to. Perhaps it has to do with my test signal, but since you're running an older version of the firmware (I'm using v.3 FW), it might also be related to that too.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on September 21, 2014, 10:12:16 am
Anyway, I tested your setup (High Res mode @ 2s/div w/14k) but it works fine on my DS2000 - the trace appears on the display as soon as it's triggered just like it's supposed to. Perhaps it has to do with my test signal, but since you're running an older version of the firmware (I'm using v.3 FW), it might also be related to that too.
I forget my firmware version but I've had the scope exactly 12 months this week. Only had Riglol hack entered via the menu.
Did another test and in Hi Res mode is displays immediately on trigger down to IIRC 100mS/div. Slower than that and you can wait forever and still nothing. If you want it to appear you can either blip the time/div or switch from Hi Res to Normal and there it is. Then back to Hi Res if you want. In Normal mode it does display immediately on trigger at 2 sec/div. Didn't try any slower. Only recently realised that a yucky, thick, furry trace can be Hi Res'd after the event so despite perhaps being a bug, I can live with it. Just  trigger and record, then Hi Res.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on September 21, 2014, 11:08:56 am
I forget my firmware version but I've had the scope exactly 12 months this week. Only had Riglol hack entered via the menu.

You're using an older version of the firmware - I can tell by the order of items in your Acquire menu: it has changed around in the latest firmware (as you can see in the images in my previous post).

Quote
Did another test and in Hi Res mode is displays immediately on trigger down to IIRC 100mS/div. Slower than that and you can wait forever and still nothing

As already mentioned, High Res is, at best, marginally useful at those time bases, causing the BW of the DSO to be reduced to below 250 Hertz. Best case bandwidths (14M mem.depth) using High Res at 200ms/div and below are:
200ms/div = 215Hz
500ms/div = 86Hz
1s/div = 43Hz
2s/div = 21.5Hz
5s/div = 8.6Hz
10s/div = 4.3Hz
20s/div = 2.1Hz
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on September 21, 2014, 10:54:23 pm
Is the FW#00.03.00.01.03 stable and solid?  Better than the 00.02.01.00.03?  Any tricks to upgrading?  I've got two non-A DS2072's.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on September 22, 2014, 06:53:01 pm
As already mentioned, High Res is, at best, marginally useful at those time bases, causing the BW of the DSO to be reduced to below 250 Hertz.
I have used high res and slow time bases to watch thermistors and the like, but I'm usually doing that stuff in roll mode.  I don't suppose Roll mode would work for you, Circlotron?  If not, remember you can turn on high res after the capture is complete when in Y-T mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on September 22, 2014, 09:11:55 pm
remember you can turn on high res after the capture is complete when in Y-T mode.
I only just the other day discovered that. Game changer.  ^-^
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on September 23, 2014, 11:33:03 pm
Is the FW#00.03.00.01.03 stable and solid?  Better than the 00.02.01.00.03?  Any tricks to upgrading?  I've got two non-A DS2072's.

Anyone?  I know you guys are on top of this!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on September 23, 2014, 11:56:13 pm
Is the FW#00.03.00.01.03 stable and solid?  Better than the 00.02.01.00.03?  Any tricks to upgrading?  I've got two non-A DS2072's.

Anyone?  I know you guys are on top of this!

FW v.3 is fine - and, as reported earlier in this thread, has added features. I've been using it for months without any noticeable problems. Upgrading is the same as always.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on September 23, 2014, 11:57:48 pm
Thanks Marmad, I appreciate the information!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 05, 2014, 10:17:21 pm
There is new firmware for the MSO/DS2000(A-S) series that has apparently been out for a few weeks (although I was unaware of it): #00.03.01.00.04.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=111462)

I haven't had any time to test old bugs - or look for new ones (or new features) - and I'm swamped with other things at the moment. Perhaps someone else can test whether, when using the Decode bus with frames in Analyze mode, the Decode bus still sticks on the first packet of data (as demonstrated in this portion of my Mask video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8dpWSvmAs&t=17m31s))? I recently reported that bug to Drieg and if it still exists in this FW version, he will report it to Rigol very soon.

The firmware is available in the usual place: post 3 of this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on October 07, 2014, 02:15:47 pm

UltraPower Analyzer software

Hello, did anybody met this SW in free access?
http://www.rigolna.com/products/accessories/ultrapower-analyzer/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/accessories/ultrapower-analyzer/)
http://www.edn.com/electronics-products/electronic-product-reviews/other/4430108/Software-turns-oscilloscopes-into-power-analyzers (http://www.edn.com/electronics-products/electronic-product-reviews/other/4430108/Software-turns-oscilloscopes-into-power-analyzers)

It seems to be compatible with DS2000 series.
(http://www.edn.com/ContentEETimes/Images/Martin/Products/Rigol_poweranalyzer_600x435.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Tasman on October 07, 2014, 11:34:26 pm

UltraPower Analyzer software

Hello, did anybody met this SW in free access?
http://www.rigolna.com/products/accessories/ultrapower-analyzer/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/accessories/ultrapower-analyzer/)
http://www.edn.com/electronics-products/electronic-product-reviews/other/4430108/Software-turns-oscilloscopes-into-power-analyzers (http://www.edn.com/electronics-products/electronic-product-reviews/other/4430108/Software-turns-oscilloscopes-into-power-analyzers)

Nice but unfortunately far from free.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 07, 2014, 11:46:44 pm
Nice but unfortunately far from free.

I think he's asking if anyone has managed to locate a copy of it somewhere for free.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Tasman on October 08, 2014, 12:11:58 am
Nice but unfortunately far from free.

I think he's asking if anyone has managed to locate a copy of it somewhere for free.

I got a copy on a cd with my oscilloscope (it can also be downloaded from rigol.com).  It works and looks good but only offline - when connected to the oscilloscope it requires a licence key to do anything useful.  The key is locked to one oscilloscope and costs about $1000 in Australia.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on October 08, 2014, 11:59:48 am
Link to download Ultra Power Analyzer 00.01.00.02:  http://www.batronix.com/exe/Rigol/VISA/Ultra%20Power%20Analyzer(PC)update.rar (http://www.batronix.com/exe/Rigol/VISA/Ultra%20Power%20Analyzer(PC)update.rar)
Ultra Power Analyzer software:  Version: 00.01.00.02,   File Size: 11.03 MB.
Requirements:  XP, Vista (32Bit + 64Bit), Windows 7 (32Bit + 64Bit), Windows 8 (32Bit  + 64Bit).
Needs: NI VISA Runtime and Ultra Sigma (min. V00.01.05.05).
See seronday's Post where he found a Option for the DS4000 using Ultra Power Analyzer, so there will be/or is one for the DS2000 also:   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 08, 2014, 01:11:51 pm
See seronday's Post where he found a Option for the DS4000 using Ultra Power Analyzer, so there will be/or is one for the DS2000 also:   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol%27s-internal-i2c-bus/msg523679/#msg523679)
I played around with the spare bits on the DS2000 for a few minutes (DSBA, DSJA, DSSA), but couldn't get it to enable the PA option - either from SCPI or from the software itself. I'm using the very latest FW (3.1.0.4), so perhaps it makes a difference to downgrade first (no time to test it at the moment).

 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: alank2 on October 08, 2014, 01:20:39 pm
marmad I wonder if they say it works with the DS2000 but perhaps it is a feature that has not been added yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zombie28 on October 09, 2014, 12:10:48 am
I played around with the spare bits on the DS2000 for a few minutes (DSBA, DSJA, DSSA), but couldn't get it to enable the PA option - either from SCPI or from the software itself.

First of all, you need proper private key, like this one: 0x1C5E1F52C1E3A8
And I believe that you don't enable PA option in the scope, but in the PA itself.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 09, 2014, 01:03:21 am
First of all, you need proper private key, like this one: 0x1C5E1F52C1E3A8
And I believe that you don't enable PA option in the scope, but in the PA itself.

Foe non-A models? Because it's enabled in the PA itself?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Tasman on October 09, 2014, 09:32:22 am
First of all, you need proper private key, like this one: 0x1C5E1F52C1E3A8
And I believe that you don't enable PA option in the scope, but in the PA itself.

Foe non-A models? Because it's enabled in the PA itself?

The software comes with a 15 day trial period, after that you have to enter a registration code in the software, not the oscilloscope,  to continue using it.  Purchase of a registration code requires the oscilloscope serial number so it might be generated in a similar way to the option codes, but unlikely to be closely related.
I believe that the power analyzer option found by seronday is a not-yet-implemented firmware feature.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zombie28 on October 09, 2014, 10:57:15 am
The software comes with a 15 day trial period, after that you have to enter a registration code in the software, not the oscilloscope,  to continue using it.  Purchase of a registration code requires the oscilloscope serial number so it might be generated in a similar way to the option codes, but unlikely to be closely related.
I believe that the power analyzer option found by seronday is a not-yet-implemented firmware feature.

Exactly, and regarding PA's license verification, all of the magic (or should I say MIRACL) happens in the RigolRunTime.dll.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: etl17 on October 12, 2014, 02:56:04 pm
There is new firmware for the MSO/DS2000(A-S) series that has apparently been out for a few weeks (although I was unaware of it): #00.03.01.00.04.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=111462)

I haven't had any time to test old bugs - or look for new ones (or new features) - and I'm swamped with other things at the moment. Perhaps someone else can test whether, when using the Decode bus with frames in Analyze mode, the Decode bus still sticks on the first packet of data (as demonstrated in this portion of my Mask video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8dpWSvmAs&t=17m31s))? I recently reported that bug to Drieg and if it still exists in this FW version, he will report it to Rigol very soon.

The firmware is available in the usual place: post 3 of this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).

I was using the serial decoding (rs232) yesterday and I'm happy to report that the new firmware doesn't seem to suffer from this problem anymore. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 03:12:08 pm
I was using the serial decoding (rs232) yesterday and I'm happy to report that the new firmware doesn't seem to suffer from this problem anymore.

Really? You can confirm that it was decoding correctly when using Analyze mode?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: etl17 on October 12, 2014, 10:40:12 pm
Yes!
There was a noticeable lag (maybe a second or so), but as I was moving between frames in analyze mode the decoding was eventually getting updated.    :-)
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 12, 2014, 11:31:57 pm
Yes!
There was a noticeable lag (maybe a second or so), but as I was moving between frames in analyze mode the decoding was eventually getting updated.    :-)

Great! Good to hear it - and thanks for posting the info (plus welcome to the forum :)).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mark_O on October 14, 2014, 08:55:09 am
Yes!
There was a noticeable lag (maybe a second or so), but as I was moving between frames in analyze mode the decoding was eventually getting updated.    :-)

That's a pretty nice improvement, and will make Analyze Mode that much more useful.   :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: etl17 on October 14, 2014, 05:20:38 pm
Now if only Rigol was to implement a search function.....
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on October 15, 2014, 11:45:29 am
Yes!
There was a noticeable lag (maybe a second or so), but as I was moving between frames in analyze mode the decoding was eventually getting updated.    :-)

Great! Good to hear it - and thanks for posting the info (plus welcome to the forum :)).
I can confirm that it also works with the CAN analyzer (DS2000A).
Later added: Updating from 00.03.01.00.03 is save: you will not loose any options etc.

One short hint to the update procedure:
a) Check! It took me 4 or 5 attempts to get the scope updated. Even as it looked like the scope was updating (Ch1 blinking for some time, then after a while all leds lit), the scope was not updated (check with 7-6-7-utility as mentioned before). I changed nothing: the USB stick was one I was using all the time with this scope without any problem before. I just tried it again and again.
So, if you have this problem too: just keep trying and don't forget to check the system info after updating.

b) FRAM: Even as I updated only from 00.03.01.00.03 to 00.03.01.00.04, I needed to run the FRAM deleting procedure Marmad is mentioning in post at the beginning. I did not clear FRAM first, as his post also says "only needed for major updates". As my scope had some strange behaviour in some menus (I first thought the new firmware was bullsh*), I cleared it during booting. After clearing the FRAM, everything is fine now. @Marmad: better change this to a "always to-do".

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on October 15, 2014, 07:10:02 pm
Besides decode in analyze mode, have you discovered any new fixes/feature enhancements with the new firmware?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Pinkus on October 16, 2014, 07:55:35 am
Besides decode in analyze mode, have you discovered any new fixes/feature enhancements with the new firmware?
To be honest: Due to lack of time I did not look deeply into all menus  and submenus. I did not discover anything new by "just" working with the usual functions.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bugware on October 25, 2014, 02:24:22 am
I update with FW 00.03.01.00.04 from 00.02.01.00.03...

Bug 17) is still there...  :(

I took a look at the waveform update rates and here are my results. I used only 70kHz Sinwave to test because I don't have a SigGen... Sorry!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=114531;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 25, 2014, 01:07:28 pm
I took a look at the waveform update rates and here are my results. I used only 70kHz Sinwave to test because I don't have a SigGen... Sorry!

Well, thanks for doing that, but your 20ns/Auto/Vector number is most definitely missing a zero. I'm getting 17,820 right at this moment.

Also, your input frequency of 70kHz is close enough to the highest update rates that it might negatively impact some of those numbers. I've never seen anyone make these tests with less than a 1MHz input signal - to make sure there isn't any chance input triggers might be missed due to timing mismatches between the input frequency and internal clock.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on November 09, 2014, 04:11:30 pm
I have noticed that the waveform intensity of my 2072 in hires mode becomes significantly lower at low timebases. This is also the case if I use hires in roll-mode. It seems to happen if the timebase is > 100 ms/division. See attached screenshots. Basically the waveform becomes almost invisible in normal light, it is rather annoying.
Am I missing something, is it a known bug? (could not find anything)

My DS1074 does not exhibit this behavior. So I switch to that instrument when looking hires at low-frequency stuff...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2014, 04:27:46 pm
My DS1074 does not exhibit this behavior. So I switch to that instrument when looking hires at low-frequency stuff...

Except, as I've already posted extensively about, the DS1000Z does NOT do correct 12-bit High Res at all. So you're basically just looking at a brighter waveform that is barely (if at all) being averaged. I just checked Roll mode on both scopes (@ 200ms/div), and the DS1000Z is definitely not averaging to 12-bits (i.e. no High Res) - while the DS2000 does it perfectly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on November 09, 2014, 04:40:35 pm

Except, as I've already posted extensively about, the DS1000Z does NOT do correct 12-bit High Res at all. So you're basically just looking at a brighter waveform that is barely (if at all) being averaged. I just checked Roll mode on both scopes (@ 200ms/div), and the DS1000Z is definitely not averaging to 12-bits (i.e. no High Res) - while the DS2000 does it perfectly.
Yes I realize(d) the difference between the scopes. But it does not explain (at least not to me) why the wave intensity of the (signal) trace on the DS2072 drops of instantly and dramatically when the timebase is > 100 ms/div - becoming almost invisible.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2014, 04:47:15 pm
Yes I realize(d) the difference between the scopes.

But then running the DS1000Z in High Res/Roll is almost equivalent to DS2000 Normal/Roll, so why bother swapping scopes?  ;)

Quote
But it does not explain (at least not to me) why the wave intensity of the (signal) trace on the DS2072 drops of instantly and dramatically when the timebase is > 100 ms/div - becoming almost invisible.

I believe the dimness of the waveform in High Res mode at slower timebases comes from the interaction between the successive sample averaging and the decimation for the intensity buffer. I think that it's actually performing correctly - in terms of the intensity mathematics (every 256 successive samples are being reduced to 1) - but it's the kind of thing that, even though technically correct, does not lead to a good visual result. It would require a workaround in the code to bypass (or correct, depending on your point of view) the problem.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on November 09, 2014, 05:00:58 pm
But then running the DS1000Z in High Res/Roll is almost equivalent to DS2000 Normal/Roll, so why bother swapping scopes?  ;)
Well I wanted to look at a low frequency signal with a lot of noise on top - including scope noise as I was at nearly maximum sensitivity. Hires gets rid of a lot of the noise. But then this signal becomes nearly invisible on the 2000.
The 1074 hires mode also gets rid of some of the noise, not as well as the 2000 but at least the trace is better (visible)
Quote
I believe the dimness of the waveform in High Res mode at slower timebases comes from the interaction between the successive sample averaging and the decimation for the intensity buffer. I think that it's actually performing correctly - in terms of the intensity mathematics (every 256 successive samples are being reduced to 1) - but it's the kind of thing that, even though technically correct, does not lead to a good visual result. It would require a workaround exception in the code to bypass (or correct) the problem.
Hmm but why the sudden change @ 100 ms/div. I would expect a more gradual dimming.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2014, 05:11:10 pm
Hmm but why the sudden change @ 100 ms/div. I would expect a more gradual dimming.

The acquisition/display engine is working differently at the slower timebases. You can see that when you're at <=100ms/div, the entire waveform is captured before being displayed (i.e. all decimation is done), but when at >=200ms/div, it is displaying the waveform AS it's being captured (i.e. decimation done on the fly - thus not being affected by subsequent captures).

The Rigol's do intensity grading based on BOTH vertical and horizontal overlapping from sample to display memory. When displaying on the fly (anytime you're running at >=200ms/div), the overlapping (and thus, grading) will be different since it won't know beforehand the upcoming samples. This is true on the DS1000Z too, but because it's not really doing 12-bit averaging, you don't see the intensity difference caused by the missing (averaged) samples when displaying on the fly.

EDIT: BTW, this could explain why Rigol doesn't do true High Res on the DS1000Z: because people complained about the dim waveform on the DS2000 when using it at >=200ms/div, so instead of finding a workaround, they just crippled it on the DS1000Z.  ;)  I suspect it's either that - or the engine is just not fast enough for it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on November 09, 2014, 05:31:00 pm
The acquisition/display engine is working differently at the slower timebases. You can see that when you're at <=100ms/div, the entire waveform is captured before being displayed (i.e. all decimation is done), but when at >=200ms/div, it is displaying the waveform AS it's being captured (i.e. decimation done on the fly - thus not being affected by subsequent captures).

The Rigol's do intensity grading based on BOTH vertical and horizontal overlapping from sample to display memory. When displaying on the fly (anytime you're running at >=200ms/div), the overlapping (and thus, grading) will be different since it won't know beforehand the upcoming samples. This is true on the DS1000Z too, but because it's not really doing 12-bit averaging, you don't see the intensity difference caused by the missing (averaged) samples when displaying on the fly.
Aha! Now it makes sense. From 100 -> 200 ms/div the display indeed changes from complete capture -> display to displaying "live" while capturing.
Thanks, this helped me a lot. (Still would like Rigol to do something about it, but it is probably not on top of a list)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2014, 05:45:15 pm
Aha! Now it makes sense. From 100 -> 200 ms/div the display indeed changes from complete capture -> display to displaying "live" while capturing.
Thanks, this helped me a lot. (Still would like Rigol to do something about it, but it is probably not on top of a list)

It's definitely a quirky byproduct of their mathematics/display code, which could be changed with a little effort - although you could argue that it's actually displaying the intensity (after averaging) exactly correctly. It is curious to note though, that the intensity is, in fact, 'adjusted' by the DSO when stopped.

Try this: do a Single capture of a sine wave in High Res mode @ >=200ms/div with Intensity at 50%. You'll see the typical very dim waveform when the capture is done. Then just lightly turn (I don't mean PUSH - just very slightly rotate) the multifunction knob, and the intensity will snap back to an 'average' setting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on November 09, 2014, 05:48:02 pm
Try this: do a Single capture of a sine wave in High Res mode @ >=200ms/div with Intensity at 50%. You'll see the typical very dim waveform when the capture is done. Then just lightly turn (I don't mean PUSH - just very slightly rotate) the multifunction knob, and the intensity will snap back to an 'average' setting.
Yes, I already noticed that (by twiddling the vertical position knob, even while capturing). That was (then) one of the reasons why I suspected a bug....
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2014, 05:54:16 pm
Yes, I already noticed that (by twiddling the vertical position knob, even while capturing). That was (then) one of the reasons why I suspected a bug....

No, I think that Rigol's thinking is that the dimness is actually the mathematically correct intensity after averaging (as mentioned above) - so it's giving you the 'truest' image of the averaged + decimated samples. But once the DSO is stopped, the 'true' image of the incoming and processed samples is not as important as normal brightness.

At least, I can imagine that some engineer might have thought this way  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on November 09, 2014, 06:26:53 pm

No, I think that Rigol's thinking is that the dimness is actually the mathematically correct intensity after averaging (as mentioned above) - so it's giving you the 'truest' image of the averaged + decimated samples. But once the DSO is stopped, the 'true' image of the incoming and processed samples is not as important as normal brightness.

At least, I can imagine that some engineer might have thought this way  ;D
Ok so if the displayed trace(brightness) reflects the actual density/intensity of the original signal at that level, then increasing the amount of noise on the input should result in an even dimmer average trace (as the signal density per tracewidth would become smaller). Might try that later...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2014, 08:43:32 pm
Ok so if the displayed trace(brightness) reflects the actual density/intensity of the original signal at that level, then increasing the amount of noise on the input should result in an even dimmer average trace (as the signal density per tracewidth would become smaller). Might try that later...

No, the amount of noise won't make a difference: in High Res mode, it's already displaying the lowest intensity level possible.

Think of the math: for example, at 200ms/div in Normal mode (and the AUTO/14M memory setting), the sample rate is 5MSa/s, so the samples are every 200ns - and each column of the 400px waveform display area equals 7ms, so is derived from 35,000 samples. In other words, the intensity is roughly based on the number of hits between 0 to 35k (with 256 maximum divisions). If High Res is then turned on, the number of possible hits drops by a factor of 256 - which is already the lowest intensity level possible.

You can prove this by turning the intensity level to 0%, then running the DSO in High Res mode. It will always be a perfectly black trace.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on November 10, 2014, 04:02:34 pm
No, the amount of noise won't make a difference: in High Res mode, it's already displaying the lowest intensity level possible.
<snip>
You can prove this by turning the intensity level to 0%, then running the DSO in High Res mode. It will always be a perfectly black trace.
Yup confirmed. But if the algorithm is so simple what would be the problem (for Rigol) to just upshift the intensity to get better visibility? If I understand you correctly there already is only one (1) intensity level in this mode, so no intensity information will be lost  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 10, 2014, 06:12:22 pm
Yup confirmed. But if the algorithm is so simple what would be the problem (for Rigol) to just upshift the intensity to get better visibility? If I understand you correctly there already is only one (1) intensity level in this mode, so no intensity information will be lost  :-//

Nothing really. As I mentioned, I guess some Rigol engineers thought it was better to keep it consistent to reflect the reduction of data by averaging when the DSO was running. But it would be nice if it was at least an option you could turn on and off (e.g. Intensity Averaging - or something like that).

Since there is only one level at >=200ms/div High Res, you might as well set intensity to 100%. Do you still find it too dark if you do that?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on November 10, 2014, 09:18:09 pm
Since there is only one level at >=200ms/div High Res, you might as well set intensity to 100%. Do you still find it too dark if you do that?
I'd like it a bit brighter, but I suppose it will do  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on November 15, 2014, 01:21:52 pm
There is a new issue with 'Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter' related to the Trigger mode/method.    See ->  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg550964/#msg550964 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg550964/#msg550964)   This is already up to 12 pages in only two days.  I'm posting this alert here because I didn't see Rigol O'Scope experts here such as 'marmad', 'teneyes', etc there that could be valuable contributors to understanding the issue.  And further we should all at least be advised that this issue is being discussed.  I also believe that some DS4000 users are experiencing the trigger jitter issue (with the AC trigger mode).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 15, 2014, 03:09:39 pm
There is a new issue with 'Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter' related to the Trigger mode/method.    See ->  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg550964/#msg550964 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg550964/#msg550964)   This is already up to 12 pages in only two days.  I'm posting this alert here because I didn't see Rigol O'Scope experts here such as 'marmad', 'teneyes', etc there that could be valuable contributors to understanding the issue.  And further we should all at least be advised that this issue is being discussed.  I also believe that some DS4000 users are experiencing the trigger jitter issue (with the AC trigger mode).
Thanks for the heads up. As I noted over in that thread, we've been talking about problems with AC-coupling the trigger for over 2 years now in this thread (check out the bug list or search the thread). Few of us original owners use that setting because of these problems - and I've never found a single instance in my use of the DSO in that time where I needed it. The other jitter being discussed is not present on the DS2000.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on November 15, 2014, 09:40:49 pm
There is a new issue with 'Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter' related to the Trigger mode/method.    See ->  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg550964/#msg550964 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg550964/#msg550964)   This is already up to 12 pages in only two days.  I'm posting this alert here because I didn't see Rigol O'Scope experts here such as 'marmad', 'teneyes', etc there that could be valuable contributors to understanding the issue.  And further we should all at least be advised that this issue is being discussed.  I also believe that some DS4000 users are experiencing the trigger jitter issue (with the AC trigger mode).
Thanks for the heads up. As I noted over in that thread, we've been talking about problems with AC-coupling the trigger for over 2 years now in this thread (check out the bug list or search the thread). Few of us original owners use that setting because of these problems - and I've never found a single instance in my use of the DSO in that time where I needed it. The other jitter being discussed is not present on the DS2000.
Thank you 'marmad':
I just found your post that I somehow missed before reading through the whole thread.  I must have fallen asleep for some of it.
Anyway I for one feel much better as a DS2000 owner seeing that its AC Triggering issue has been known about for a long time.  It is very bad, so hopefully it will get corrected by Rigol.
Thanks! 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on November 20, 2014, 02:14:28 am
This is a Post from Dave about the D1000Z (with 5uS Jitter / AC Triggering) and DS2000 (AC Triggering) Jitter issues:
Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems   « Reply #336 on: Today at 07:51:48 PM »
See ->  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg554120/#msg554120 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg554120/#msg554120)

UPDATE FROM RIGOL
   1: We have reproduced the two issues in R&D side;
   2: All issues can be fixed by firmware updating without deleting any feature;
   3: The trail firmware form R&D will be released in early next week, that can be used for Dave or some urgent cases.


Good news: It appears that we will eventually see firmware fixes for these issues after their Beta testing with EEV's Dave Jones, etc. has been completed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 01, 2014, 07:48:13 am
Gilberto Asks
I upgraded the ds1104z to version 00.04.01.SP2 (board version 0.1.1).
Triggering ac nothing has changed.
I find problems, attaching two pictures ... this's not normal!!!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 01, 2014, 07:56:02 am
Marmad and I responded

You can use the Delay Trigger type (which takes two input sources) to get a stable image of two waveforms with unrelated and different frequencies.

Gilberto60 Is this what you like to see with 2 different frequencies?

Note , Select SourceA or SourceB in order to adjust Trigger level for each Chan
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 02, 2014, 07:59:21 pm
hey all

I've got a question: how good is the math function of the DS2xxx?
I have 3 DSOs here: 1 yokogawa and one philips pm3082 I think, both have 100 MHz 200 MS/s and my DS2072 @300 Mhz
I try to measure current, voltage and multiply both to see the power
on all 3 DSOs all channels and math are set to RMS.
But only the Rigol shows a 10-20W different calculated value
the math also changes with V/div resolution on the Rigol, that doesn't happen on the other 2 DSOs

Am I doing something wrong? all 3 DSO are set the same way, very odd ...
(btw, I really hate that the Rigol switches off/restarts after self cal and IIRC it also forgets the settings I made before self cal)
I want to use the Rigol because of it's better handling and ways to measure ...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 02, 2014, 09:01:21 pm
I've got a question: how good is the math function of the DS2xxx?
I try to measure current, voltage and multiply both to see the power
on all 3 DSOs all channels and math are set to RMS.
But only the Rigol shows a 10-20W different calculated value
the math also changes with V/div resolution on the Rigol, that doesn't happen on the other 2 DSOs
@Nikwing
 Please show your display.

Here are some displays of multiply 2 signals
  1,2 Multiply using Ax B math
  3,4 multiply using  Advanced math  CH1 x Ch2
  5    Shows the Math does not change with different V/div Scale (green is reference before change)

Note: The Math uses the instantaneous  values , to get RMS add the calculation in the equation
         What FW version is your DSO?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 02, 2014, 09:20:00 pm
Teneyes, thanks for your reply!

I have to take the screenshots tomorrow, DSO is at work

firmware is 03_00_01_03 I think, that's the file I currently have on my HDD, I think I've seen a newer firmware while browsing this thread yesterday, but had no time to update yet

so I have to go to advanced math and enter some formula?
I'm not sure about the settings on the yokogawa (it displays Vrms, Irms and W/math(1x2)rms on screen), but the on the philips I just went to the math menu, enabled it and selected ch1xch2, both show the same result, just the Rigol shows something else
but well, more details tomorrow :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 03, 2014, 02:26:14 am
RMS of  [ Sin (ch1) x sin(Ch2 - pi/2) ]

Note  , using HiRes
         Same for FW 00.02.00.01.03, Fw 00.03.00.01.03, and FW 00.03.01.00.04
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 03, 2014, 02:33:07 am
Just multiplying positive and negative values
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 03, 2014, 09:46:35 am
ok, so here it is:

2 screenshots, one from the Yokogawa and the other is from the Rigol.
What I've noticed: if I set math to Ch1xCh2, the displayed value (shows 604W) is a little higher than the value it shows when I set advanced math and enter Ch1 * Ch2 (shows around 596W)

The Yokogawa and Philips both show around 550W

Looks like I can't set something like RMS(CH1) * RMS(CH2) in advanced math.

My problem is, I have to adjust and measure the power of a ballast and I want to achieve the same "accuracy" I have with my workplace DSO (the value is important for a customer)

edit: btw, setting para.save, footer/header on or off has no effect here :o
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 04, 2014, 01:06:31 am
The Yokogawa and Philips both show around 550W
Looks like I can't set something like RMS(CH1) * RMS(CH2) in advanced math.
Yokogawa    131  x 4.36  = 571.16
      
Rigol      133.8 x 4.523 = 605.1774

The 'Math' multiplication is the same and correct

It looks like the Calculation of RMS is different for the different DSOs
or the measurement technique was different?
See PIx from User's guide


whick is correct??? :-//

Below is display with AxB  and RMS (AxB)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 04, 2014, 05:03:59 am
I have no idea :)
I guess I'll use the old DSO until I found out what's making the difference
(I'm no pro, I kinda learn new things by doing it when it's needed)

just an idea: could it be that the Rigol has more points to work with? If I see it correctly, the Yoko just has 10k points for that measurement/calculation and the Rigol way more?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 04, 2014, 07:25:10 am
A point to note with Rigol DS2000 using RMS measurements
watch the GATED AREA

Below are 3 displays of a 1400Hz,  2Vpp Sinewave, which should have a 0.707 RMS voltage:

     1.  Shows RMS =0.708   w/ 102us/div   = equal to 2 full cycles
     2.  Shows RMS =0.681   w/ 114us/div   more then 2 full cycles
     3.  Shows RMS =0.7377  w/ 87.5us/div  less  then 2 full cycles

So with the DSO the RMS calculation depends on display size
and the Yokogawa has 10 divisions
but the  Rigol  has  14 divisions which changes the RMS Calculations

@Nikwing
, you may wish to set the Rigol time base to show the same wave as the Yokogawa
   I hope that helps

EDIT:
with Square wave a Rigol RMS calculation;  the change depends on DC offset
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 04, 2014, 03:52:34 pm
ahh that makes sense :o

but I think I found the real reason:
I "calibrated" the current clamp and the differential probe I use. For current, I measured 5.00 A(dc) flowing through the current clamp with a multimeter and then compared both values on the DSOs
the Rigol shows 5.12A, so I used advanced math and multiplicated it with something 0.98 and suddently I had the value that I measured with the other 2 DSOs.

for voltage, I measured 130V(ac)/50Hz with the multimeter. Rigol and Yoko both measured 140Vpp.
I set measurements to RMS on both scopes and the Rigol displays 49.5V and the Yoko shows 48.7V (if I calculate it correctly: 1.414*49.5*2 = 139,986, and 137.7V, so the Rigol is much closer to 140)

is it normal that my Rigol measures a higher value than my other DSOs? and is there a way to calibrate it to show the correct value instead of using corrections in math?

and if I may ask that: saving s png screenshot with header, footer and (I currently don't remember the word) the text file enabled doesn't work here. the png looks the same all the time and no txt file is being created. Is that a bug?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 04, 2014, 05:28:07 pm
is it normal that my Rigol measures a higher value than my other DSOs? and is there a way to calibrate it to show the correct value instead of using corrections in math?
I am not sure.
Have you preformed the Rigol  'Selfcal"  recently
if I may ask that: saving s png screenshot with header, footer and (I currently don't remember the word) the text file enabled doesn't work here. the png looks the same all the time and no txt file is being created. Is that a bug?
  For screen captures I use Marmad's RUU utility ,Get it Here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575)  . For quick and easy reports with 3-D and animated Gif
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jlmoon on December 04, 2014, 05:49:53 pm
is it normal that my Rigol measures a higher value than my other DSOs? and is there a way to calibrate it to show the correct value instead of using corrections in math?
I am not sure.
Have you preformed the Rigol  'Selfcal"  recently


I have had to use the 'Selfcal' when in doubt on my DS2202 as well.  I have found it better to terminate the inputs with a 50 ohm bnc term device before I Self-Cal as well.  Keeps any extraneous noise from creeping in on those inputs while in cal mode. 

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 04, 2014, 06:16:51 pm
I've used self-cal, yes (and I mentioned that I kinda hate it "reboots" afterwards and forgets the settings I made before self-cal)

selc-cal says something like "remove all inputs from the DSO before self-cal", I think I'll try it though
I guess I can use 50 Ohm-terminators from old network-cards for that?

Teneyes: yeah, but you need network connection to use that software :)
but why does the menu offer 3 options that have no effect ^^
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 04, 2014, 08:08:14 pm
okay, I rephrase: it needs a PC ^^
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Purevector on December 07, 2014, 07:20:50 pm
I have found a bug related to switching between roll and YT mode in the newest firmware.  Here is the description:

1. In roll mode with vertical scale set to 5mV/div - Signal is ~18mV
2. Switch to YT mode, scale still indicates 5mV/div - Signal is ~8mV (???what???)
3. Change vertical scale to 10mV/div - Signal looks unchanged, but measurements updated ~17mV
4. Changes vertical scale to 5mV/div - Signal appears and measures as it should ~18mV

In summary, when switching from roll mode to Y-T while at 5mV/div (lowest setting, 10x probe) the scope adjusts the physical gain to 10mV/div for no apparent reason, and does not change scale readout.  Adjusting vertical scale returns the scope to the correct gain.

See attached pics.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on December 07, 2014, 09:16:35 pm
just a question, IIRC this was being talked about here, but I can't find it and it's not in the bug list, either:
if I have some random signal on the screen, like ripple noise and I push the stop button, I see multiple lines on screen until I change the time base (and back to where it was)
is that a bug?

and I add another question about triggering:
I've attached a random picture. Usually I would trigger at A
is it possible to trigger at B although there's a higher peak in the signal? Is it possible to tell the scope to always trigger at a desirered point on the curve?
Would I set the trigger level to let's say B and then use delay/offset or nth recurrence, or is there another way?

And, would it be possible to analyze just the part I marked with C, as in pretending that this is the real signal (which kinda "repeats" between B and A)?
I don't know how to phrase that D:

I hope it's okay to ask all of that here, else please tell me where I could do it. Like I said, I usually learn things when I need them, so this might be a silly question after all ^^;
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 07, 2014, 09:30:52 pm
and I push the stop button, I see multiple lines on screen until I change the time base (and back to where it was)
is that a bug?

When you first stop the DSO, you see the compilation of the intensity buffer (all captured waveforms during the last period). If you change time base or scale, you just see the very last captured waveform.

Quote
and I add another question about triggering:
I've attached a random picture. Usually I would trigger at A
is it possible to trigger at B although there's a higher peak in the signal? Is it possible to tell the scope to always trigger at a desirered point on the curve?
Would I set the trigger level to let's say B and then use delay/offset or nth recurrence, or is there another way?

There are different ways to do it with different trigger types. I'd probably use Pulse with trigger delay or Nth Edge with idle. The DS2000 manual gives pretty good images for each trigger type.

Quote
And, would it be possible to analyze just the part I marked with C, as in pretending that this is the real signal (which kinda "repeats" between B and A)?
I don't know how to phrase that D:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'analyze'. Of course, you can adjust the trigger and delay so that the part labelled C basically fills the screen.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on December 08, 2014, 12:21:05 am
I have found a bug related to switching between roll and YT mode in the newest firmware.  Here is the description:
NOT a Bug, but you found the Limits of the Specifications
the 1st two displays show no error at 18mv, Roll to YT ( noise)
As you can see there is  No error in the Scale

Now read the Specification in next Pix
because you are using 10x your input is 1.8mV, which is below Spec.

Pix 5 & 6 confirm your displays  with 10X
 ( I think I saw this and reported it to Rigol as the DSO is still triggering , but they responded that the input is out of Spec)
I hope that Helps

Teneyes:

This also looks like a Bug to me.  Please, why would Trigger level effect the vertical display/measurement when switching from 'ROLL' to 'Y-T' Mode?

   Thank you, ted572
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 08, 2014, 03:42:26 am
Teneyes:  This also looks like a Bug to me.  Please, why would Trigger level effect the vertical display/measurement when switching from 'ROLL' to 'Y-T' Mode?

CORRECTION , Yes a rare bug
Thanks Ted,  I removed any Trigger level causes by using External Trigger (5 V sync pulse)
Also set the input Scaling to  1x
Used a 2 cycle burst to set roll and trigger time

I find the bug of 1/2 scaling occurs for this Setup
                1. Lowest V/Div scale  (500uV/div @ 1X,  5mV/div @ 10X..... )
                2.  After Switching from Roll to Y-T     
The scale is corrected after:
        1  The scale is clicked lower (still the Same 500uV/div)
        2  The vertical position is changed
        3. The vertical position is  Zeroed
        4. The trigger position is  Changed or Zeroed
        5. Chan 2 ( even Off) position is Zeroed
I hope that would help Rigol narrow the code that needs to be called when switching to Y-T mode

The 3 Displays  with 3.6mV,
    Roll mode 
    Y-T mode
    Y-T mode  after a knob click

Edit: I have reported this to Rigol , anyone with D2000A , wish to confirm This bug
Edit: Occurs when  Chan 1 only is on
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 08, 2014, 08:28:57 am
I find the very osbcure small bug of 1/2 scaling occurs
Update  More conditions

I find the bug of 1/2 scaling occurs for this Setup
                 DS2000 system Power on set to Default
                1. Lowest V/Div scale  (500uV/div @ 1X,  5mV/div @ 10X..... )
                2.  After Switching from Roll to Y-T
                3. Even though Chan 2 is Off (Chan 2 is NOT at 500uV/Div)
     
The scale is corrected after:
        1  The Ch 1 scale is clicked lower (still the Same 500uV/div)
        2  The vertical position is changed
        3. The vertical position is  Zeroed
        4. The trigger position is  Changed or Zeroed
        5. Chan 2 ( even Off) position is Zeroed

        6. Changing Chan2 scale to lowest even while Chan 2 is off (Parameter overrange)
            Stops the re-Scaling when switching from Roll to Y-T


I hope that would help Rigol narrow the code that needs to be called when switching to Y-T mode
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Purevector on December 08, 2014, 03:40:20 pm
Teneyes:  This also looks like a Bug to me.  Please, why would Trigger level effect the vertical display/measurement when switching from 'ROLL' to 'Y-T' Mode?

CORRECTION , Yes a rare bug
Thanks Ted,  I removed any Trigger level causes by using External Trigger (5 V sync pulse)
Also set the input Scaling to  1x
Used a 2 cycle burst to set roll and trigger time

I find the bug of 1/2 scaling occurs for this Setup
                1. Lowest V/Div scale  (500uV/div @ 1X,  5mV/div @ 10X..... )
                2.  After Switching from Roll to Y-T     
The scale is corrected after:
        1  The scale is clicked lower (still the Same 500uV/div)
        2  The vertical position is changed
        3. The vertical position is  Zeroed
        4. The trigger position is  Changed or Zeroed
        5. Chan 2 ( even Off) position is Zeroed
I hope that would help Rigol narrow the code that needs to be called when switching to Y-T mode

The 3 Displays  with 3.6mV,
    Roll mode 
    Y-T mode
    Y-T mode  after a knob click

Edit: I have reported this to Rigol , anyone with D2000A , wish to confirm This bug
Edit: Occurs when  Chan 1 only is on

My unit is a DS2000A; this has nothing to do with triggering, so lets not confuse the issue... it is repeatable in auto trigger mode even if the trigger level is set too high.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 01, 2015, 12:01:44 am
New Firmware for DS1000Z and MSO/DS2000 Here
 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg578208/#msg578208)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sm5uiu on January 05, 2015, 03:59:06 pm
Frequency counter?

Seems to work ok using DC trigger (tested up to 300MHz) but when switching to AC it works up to about 60MHz?
But when using "Display all" the frequency seems ok in AC trigger mode.
(Latest jitter fix firmware. Im not sure if it behaved the same way with the "older")

/Sam

Image below. 300MHz/1VRMS external 50ohm load using a "T" at the scope. (Aeroflex 2023A signal generator)
Will work up to 58MHz when in AC trigger mode before it fails. (as mentioned before the "display all measurements" works)

(http://)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 06, 2015, 08:38:17 am
Frequency counter?
(Latest jitter fix firmware. Im not sure if it behaved the same way with the "older")
Yes a Limit to the Maximum Frequency that can be Counted!
Yes same as older FW,  I have seen this and there is a Limit to the Counter Max Frequency ( on AC triggering)
I see a bit higher limit,  if Freq. Counter is set to Chan 2  as the DSO is triggering on CHan1 (80 MHz) (AC or DC Trigger)
I see a bit higher limit,  if Freq. Counter is set to EXT  as the DSO is triggering on CHan1 (60 MHz)  (AC or DC Trigger)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 06, 2015, 09:27:56 am
Does any one else find the way the Invert input is implemented by Rigol as disconcerting?
The DS200 just inverts the trace on the  display and Not an inverting of the input, such that the trace is shown with a falling edge trigger when the Trigger is set to be a Rising edge trigger.  See Pix.

I have not used any other DSO, so I am asking all
"Is this the Standard way to implement the INVERT feature on a DSO?"
I went and Dug out my out Tek analog scope , and it applies the Trigger mode after the input is Inverted ..

Is Rigol doing it different?.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 08, 2015, 12:43:02 pm
What I learned today was creating a comb of frequencies  with a train of short pulses.
And it was nice to see the FFT of my DS2000 shows the results.
Next I will try to test a circuit(filter) with pulses and my DSO

Below see 300nsec Pulses at:
1   2.5 usec period
2   5.0 usec period
3   10  usec  period
4   10  usec  period with more voltage
5   20  usec  period with more voltage

See a good Time/Frequency domain duality experiment by SignalPath Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xqYQqXz7DZA&t=48m0s)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: korlatos on February 03, 2015, 09:29:52 pm
Hello,

Has anybody successfully installed and used the CAN decoder option on DS2072 (non-A) with 2.0 HW?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: korlatos on February 03, 2015, 10:00:56 pm
Thank you for the link, but that is a DS2072A scope. I know that Rigol added CAN decoding and 50 ohm termination to the A model, but the question is whether CAN decoder can be enabled on non-A models with current firmware (03.03.01).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 03, 2015, 11:06:01 pm
Thank you for the link, but that is a DS2072A scope. I know that Rigol added CAN decoding and 50 ohm termination to the A model, but the question is whether CAN decoder can be enabled on non-A models with current firmware (03.03.01).

Yes it can!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: korlatos on February 03, 2015, 11:20:19 pm
Great - thank you!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 04, 2015, 12:14:28 am
Here is My DS2072  test with FW 00.03.03.01.00,,
I did have problems with trigger setup at 1st but finally it worked ?????
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 04, 2015, 08:36:12 am
korlatos:  is the CAN decoder can be enabled on non-A models with current firmware (03.03.01).
Yes it can!
@EV , Do you have the Rigol CAN test PCB?

Here is My DS2072  test with FW 00.03.03.01.00,,
I did have problems with trigger setup at 1st but finally it worked ?????

Yes I have Rigol DS6000 Demo Board. The CAN signal is from it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 04, 2015, 05:53:25 pm
If  you have a Rigol DG4000 and wish to play with CAN decoding , I have Attached two  ".RAF" files that you can load into the DG4000.  The Arb function has 66bits , so setting the Arb period to 66us, generates a 1 Mb/s data rate.
Then use the Burst function to Space the Burst of CAN messages.
Below I show a 500Kb/s message (period=132us) that is decoded correctly.

then I show  the message with the Burst period set too Small (Fast)  and the DSO does not detect the second message start and there are errors.  I am not sure what the Spec is for CAN message spacing

The Second file is a message with CRC error
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 04, 2015, 08:32:20 pm
If  you have a Rigol DG4000 and wish to play with CAN decoding , I have Attached two  ".RAF" files one can load into the DG4000. 

Thanks for the files Teneyes!
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Teneyes on February 13, 2015, 08:35:49 am
Known Firmware Bugs/Issues
22) All SCPI commands related to CAN triggering appear to be missing in the latest FW.
[FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03
Just cleaning up old bug report
FW 00.03.03.01.00,   Does appear to Fix this bug in the short testing shown below.
report to Marmad with tests.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Teneyes on February 13, 2015, 08:45:19 am
Known Firmware Bugs/Issues
17) There is a visible offset from center position when using AC-coupled Triggers (including filtered LF and HF) at lower time bases (<= 2us/div), as well as serious jitter with certain settings.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]
As most of EEVBLOGers know, that after Dave Jones (#683) got on Rigol's case about AC-triggering , the Bugs were Fixed  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on June 14, 2015, 01:53:00 pm
My scope is still at 00.02.01.00.03, and I added the hack to get some of the options (the scope is bought as 200mzh so I only added the other options), will I loose these if I upgrade to 00.03.03.01.00 now?
The release notes contained an long list of bugfixes so I guess an update is in order now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 15, 2015, 12:34:08 am
My scope is still at 00.02.01.00.03, and I added the hack to get some of the options (the scope is bought as 200mzh so I only added the other options), will I loose these if I upgrade to 00.03.03.01.00 now?
The release notes contained an long list of bugfixes so I guess an update is in order now.

I have yet to hear of anyone losing any options when upgrading the FW of a DS2000(A).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TheBay on June 15, 2015, 08:07:03 am
I've gone through almost every post on here to find the answer to this...

I have a DS2702 (Non A) I bought it from someone on this forum, it came with the 300mhz option and everything else enabled...
However I wanted to remove all the options and put it back to a DS2702 then do the software update, I used Ultrasigma to send an SCPI command to remove the options.

But although everything has gone to "Trial" Status, my scope is identifying itself as a DS2202? I do now have the latest firmware installed but how can I easily get it back to a DS2702 if I ever sell it or send it for repair?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on June 23, 2015, 03:57:51 am
I see that there is a new firmware version available for the DS2000 series scopes:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)

...
DS/MSO2000/A/-S:   00.03.03 SP2
...

Has anyone here tried it yet?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on June 23, 2015, 03:58:17 pm
Can this firmware be loaded somewhere?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on June 23, 2015, 07:18:42 pm
Can this firmware be loaded somewhere?
Yes, you can load it on your DS2000/DS2000A.  Hi Hi

Version: 00.03.03.02.06 (00.03.03 SP2)  Date: 2015-06-17
Go to -> http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-001a/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-001a/t/page/fm/0)    This will get it for you in Rigol's style!.
Select -> 'DS2000Update.zip' to download it.
This is what it improves on:
1. Added the persistence of XY wave.
2. Added the French language menu. 
3. Supporting the license file installed by U DISK.
4. Supporting the decoder of multi-modules license file.
5. The screen ASC format screen data are not corresponding with the real values.
6. The position of the Cursor is wrong in the saved snap pictures.
7. Improve the stability the LAN interface communication.
8. Fixed the wave stop refreshing in slow scan mode for MSO serials.
9. Memory LA wave data can’t be saved as CSV format.
10. The parallel decoder result can’t align with the Clock position.
11. The outputs of two Source channels are not equal with each other.
12. The Auto operation can’t execute the auto AC settings correctly. 
13. Update the system of SCPI commands. 
14. Modified the result type of“:wav:yor..”.
15. Fixed the data fetching of the decoder.

Edited FW version notes.  I think we can thank 'Teneyes' for reporting many of these issues to Rigol.  Anyway, thank you Rigol. .  .                                            
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on June 23, 2015, 09:31:00 pm
ted572, Thanks for the link! 15 improvements!  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dadler on June 23, 2015, 11:50:45 pm
Any guinea pig installed it and confirmed if any installed options are affected?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on June 24, 2015, 01:54:11 am
Any guinea pig installed it and confirmed if any installed options are affected?
All installed options fine here [emoji1]
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dadler on June 24, 2015, 04:37:29 am
I installed the new firmware.

On first boot, browsing the Utility menu with the down arrow caused the entire screen to "bounce" up vertically about 50 pixels, and then back down. It did this twice.

Can't seem to reproduce now, but it was sort of unnerving!

Options still active.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on June 24, 2015, 10:58:32 am
I installed the new firmware.
On first boot, browsing the Utility menu with the down arrow caused the entire screen to "bounce" up vertically about 50 pixels, and then back down. It did this twice.
Options still active.
The installation instructions "Step 9. Special Note for DS2000/DS2000A users:" covers this kind of thing.  In fact you should routinly perform this solution after updating the Firmware in the DS2000/A to clear FRAM. This has been often mentioned here in the past.

I didn't mention that I successfully installed this Firmware update yesterday without issue, because I thought that it would be understood after my describing how to get the update and what it does.

Edit follows below:
Recommendation:  After FW update  ->  1) ''Clear FRAM (by pressing 6th grey button on left side in & out repeatedly during Reboot)*,  2) Restore DEFAULTS*,  3) Perform 'Self-Cal'.  *Ref. Step 9.
Note: When you look at System Info you should see Firmware '00.03.03 SP2'.  For the Full Version Info you should see Firmware '00.03.03.02.06'.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on June 24, 2015, 01:04:33 pm
Note: When you look at System Info you should see Firmware '00.03.03 SP2'.  For the Full Version Info you should see Firmware '00.03.03.02.06'.
Reminder: To get the full firmware version info from the DS2000, follow these instructions:
1 Go to the Trigger 'Menu' and set 'Edge' trigger.
2 While keeping the Trigger menu open, you are going to use the 6th and 7th
  (last/bottom) button in the menu buttons on the right-side of LCD as  follows:
3 Press the [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] buttons in sequence one after
  another quickly.
4 Then select System, -> System Info.
5 You should see something like this:
     Software version: 00.03.03.02.06
     Hardware version: xxxxx
     FPGA version:
     SPU xxxxx
     WPU xxxxx
     CCU xxxxx
     MCU xxxxx
  If you DON'T see this detailed info, start again, and press those 4 buttons
  faster.
  To escape from this mode, press again [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] while
  inside Trigger menu, or reboot the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dadler on June 24, 2015, 07:23:55 pm
I installed the new firmware.
On first boot, browsing the Utility menu with the down arrow caused the entire screen to "bounce" up vertically about 50 pixels, and then back down. It did this twice.
Options still active.
The installation instructions "Step 9. Special Note for DS2000/DS2000A users:" covers this kind of thing.  In fact you should routinly perform this solution after updating the Firmware in the DS2000/A to clear FRAM. This has been often mentioned here in the past.

I didn't mention that I successfully installed this Firmware update yesterday without issue, because I thought that it would be understood after my describing how to get the update and what it does.

Edit follows below:
Recommendation:  After FW update  ->  1) ''Clear FRAM (by pressing 6th grey button on left side in & out repeatedly during Reboot)*,  2) Restore DEFAULTS*,  3) Perform 'Self-Cal'.  *Ref. Step 9.
Note: When you look at System Info you should see Firmware '00.03.03 SP2'.  For the Full Version Info you should see Firmware '00.03.03.02.06'.

Thanks for your help.

To be clear, I did in fact follow the exact prescribed procedure in the upgrade guide (including the exact steps you have listed).

However, on visiting the the Utility menu (on first boot post-calibration), the down button twice caused the display to "bounce".

The screen was never scrambled, the parameters were never wrong, and it never occurred again.

I think one of the "bounces" was timed along with the "Lan connected" message, so they may have been related. Might just be a UI quirk.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 07:28:45 pm
hey dadler? was it just a one time glitch? Is everything fine now? I am considering an upgrade as well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dadler on June 24, 2015, 07:40:47 pm
hey dadler? was it just a one time glitch? Is everything fine now? I am considering an upgrade as well.

Just one time and it was immediately after the forced-restart from the self-calibration.

It's been rock solid since, no issues. What I experienced wasn't even an issue, just unexpected.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on June 24, 2015, 11:09:36 pm
cool, cheers!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: lr1234 on June 25, 2015, 09:55:28 am
00.03.03.02.06  HighRes on > 1ms qause long freezes
with only 1 ch in use.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: arny on June 25, 2015, 01:47:14 pm
00.03.03.02.06  HighRes on > 1ms qause long freezes
with only 1 ch in use.
its also freezes in dot mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on June 25, 2015, 03:04:44 pm
15 improvements and how many new mistakes???  :phew:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on June 25, 2015, 03:49:06 pm
lr1234, arny or EV ; Did anybody roll back to previous FW version??

I have not but I can try it if you want. I think there is no problem to go back because the loader is the same.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: lr1234 on June 25, 2015, 03:58:17 pm
Downgrade to relative stable ver 00.03.03.01 do not work .
Some SCPI also. >:D
Maybe He Xiaohua going to Siglent?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on June 25, 2015, 06:33:15 pm
I managed to load FW ver 00.03.03.01, but I had to do it twice. First time was not succesful. It was loaded quite short time and there was no system button under utility menu (or I did not find it).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on June 25, 2015, 07:16:19 pm
Pretty disappointing that they can't catch these issues before they release the firmware. You'd think their regression tests would have a frame rate / waveforms-per-sec test on all the common options. Kind of amateur hour if you ask me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on June 25, 2015, 07:58:19 pm
HighRes on > 1ms qause long freezes
with only 1 ch in use.

What memory setting(s)? Other pertinent settings?

BTW, do you understand that when you have HighRes on at > 1ms that the bandwidth of your DSO is less than 22kHz (much less if at even slower timebases)? Mostly useful only for specific things; i.e. audio work or low frequency.

its also freezes in dot mode.

What memory settings? Timebases?

If people want to report bugs, it's not very constructive unless you report any/all settings that it occurs with so that others can try to replicate it or find precise parameters.


EDIT: Actually, the bandwidth is less than 22kHz with HighRes >1ms/div. Changed above.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: lr1234 on June 25, 2015, 08:28:53 pm
Default settings,test signal on ch1
Memory auto
Only 1Ch enabled (for 2Gs/s)
 If HighRes or Dot Mode changing time base lover as 500us cause freeze.
2Gs/s memory arithmetic’s  with bugs.
Temporary help-  enabling second channel(2Gs/s/2)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DD4DA on June 26, 2015, 09:20:30 pm
Default settings,test signal on ch1
Memory auto
Only 1Ch enabled (for 2Gs/s)
 If HighRes or Dot Mode changing time base lover as 500us cause freeze.
2Gs/s memory arithmetic’s  with bugs.
Temporary help-  enabling second channel(2Gs/s/2)

Default settings,
deactivate CH2,
Any Signal on CH1,
Aquire->Mode "Hires"
Memory Auto (is a Default setting)

Move over SweepTime 500µs to 1000µs and back - Scope freezes or hangs in a Loop.

In my Scope DS2202, the entire scope freezes only in Hires-Mode, not in normal mode as i found out for now.

Gerd
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DD4DA on July 01, 2015, 06:44:39 pm
Ich habe den Fehler an Rigol Deutschland gemeldet und die wiederum haben diesen an das R & D weitergegeben, nach dem Sie ihn nachvollziehen konnten. Ich muss schon sagen - das geht echt unkompliziert gut. Wieder ein Punkt der mir an Rigol gefällt. Bedenkt man die Komplexität dieses Messgerätes, so kann diese Fehlerart schon mal vorkommen. Wichtig ist es eben, dass sich der Hersteller sich diesem Fehler zur Brust nimmt. Ich kenne das auch anders.   

Ich hatte zu beginn diesen Fehler auch ohne HighRes erzeugen können. Das wiederholen des Flash-Vorgangs der gleichen Firmware erledigte den Fehler allerdings - jedenfalls habe ich ihn nicht mehr nachstellen können. Mit HighRes lässt er sich jedoch sehr gut und zuverlässig reproduzieren.
Was sich bei dieser Prozedur geändert haben könnte, vermag ich nicht zu beurteilen.
Mein DS2202 ist schon ein "Big Bang for a Buck" und gemessen am Preis bekommt man schon eine Menge Leistung geboten. Für ein R&S HAMEG muss man schon sehr viel mehr zahlen. Die I2C-Decoder Option habe ich dazu gekauft und wurde nicht entäuscht. Leider ist die Option CAN-Decode für mein Gerät nicht erhältlich - erst für die "A" Fassung. Daran hätte ich noch interesse gehabt. Derzeit löse ich es mit einem USB-Logikanalyser der diese Aufgabe auch gut meistert.

Einzig die Tastköpfe sind im 1:1 Betrieb mit 9Mhz Bandbreite sehr schmalbandig. Es gibt ja auch native 1:1 Tastköpfe die die 200Mhz schaffen oder man verwendet eben ein direktes Koaxkabel.

NUn, schauen wir mal was der kommende Update für uns bereit hält.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on July 01, 2015, 06:54:27 pm
Google translate did surprisingly well for me:
Quote
I have reported the bug to Rigol Germany and in turn have these passed on to the R & D, as they were able to understand him. I have to say - that's really straightforward good. Another point of what I like about Rigol. Bearing in mind this can fault occur, the complexity of this instrument before. It is important to specify that the manufacturer this error takes to the chest. I know the other way.

I had been able to start producing this error without HighRes. The repeat of the flash process the same firmware completed the mistake, however - at least I no longer have to readjust him. With HighRes he can, however, very good and reliable reproduce.
What could have changed in this procedure, I can not judge.
My DS2202 is already a "Big Bang for a Buck" and in terms of price do you get a lot of power on offer. For an R & S HAMEG you really have to pay a lot more. The I2C Decoder option I bought it and was not disappointed. Unfortunately, the option CAN Decode is not available for my device - only for the "A" version. That's what I would have been interested. Currently, I'll solve it with a USB logic analyzer of this task also copes well.

Only the probes are in 1: 1 mode with 9MHz very narrow bandwidth. There are also native 1: 1 probes that create the 200Mhz or you just used a direct coaxial cable.

Well, let's see what the upcoming update for us keeps ready.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DD4DA on July 05, 2015, 06:47:01 pm
some here response that the last firmware update 3.3.SP2 has a bug in Hires mode and a fallback to older firmware seems tobe impossible - me to.
Well, this is wrong  - there is a supported way available to install an older Version of firmware. I did that and my scope works as proper as before the 3.3.sp2 Update was installed.
The DS2202 HW Rev1 (without an A) has more options to update as just install the latest firmare on a Memory stick and start the Scope oder via System Menu option. The third way looks like an Update via boot-loader, instead installed operating system.
 
The description of this procedure is attachted this message and was released by RIGOL.

Beware - Do not remove the Memorystick until the Scope is response, that the update process is finished - especialy it looks like the scope don't do anything -  be sure, it do.

The CH1 Backlight switch blink's  about 2 Minutes after the update start and the access of the Memorystick will be do a couple of times.
Do not plug-in the Memorystick into the USB recepticle at boot time, instead follow the instruction.

I had downgrade my scope to 3.3.SP1 succesfully and reset then to the default values after downgrade process. No Hires bug is left - of course.
We still wait to the next firmware release and hope this will be in better quality.



Deutsch:

Nach dem einige Mittsteiter und "Leidensgenossen" vom HIRES-Acquire Fehler in der Firmware 3.3-SP2 berichteten und nachvollziehbar war, habe ich dieses Problem an Rigol weitergegeben.
Nun suchte ich nach einer legalen und unterstützten Möglichkeit die Vorgängerversion der Firmware 3.3-SP1 wieder einspielen zu können.  Der reguläre Weg über den vor dem Start eingestecktem Memorystick mit dem Updatefile, funktioniert offensichtlich nur bei gleicher oder neuerer Version möglich.
Der Weg über den Boot-Loader des Geräts lässt aber den Downgrade zu. Er ist leider wenig kommunikativ - also es ist Gedult angesagt.
Die Prozedur ist in dem angehangenem PDF von Rigol beschrieben. Dieser Weg hat sehr gut funktioniert und ich habe mein Gerät (DS2202) wieder mit 3.3-SP1 ausgestattet. Dieser Weg ist von Rigol unterstützt da er offiziell beschrieben ist. Bitte jedoch die nötige Sorgfalt walten lassen und GEDULDIG warten  bis der Update durch ist. Zu Begin könnte man meinen, dass nicht passiert (das emine ich mit wenig kommunikativ) aber es passiert was - da kann man sicher sein. Nach etwa 2 Minuten kann man viele kurze Zugriffe auf den Stick beobacheten und kurz danach ist das Flashen abgeschlossen.
Das erkennt man an der nun nicht mehr blinkenden CH1 Hintergrundbeleuchtung, die wärend des Updates blinkt. Den USB-Stick nicht beim Starten einstecken !!. Nach Abschluß des ersten Starts müssen die Default-Werte via Storage->Default eingesteltl werden, damit die Reaktion des Skope wieder nachvollziehbar sind.

So warten wir nun geduldig auf den nächsten Update, der hoffendlich etwas besser ausfällt. 

vy 73 de Gerhard, DD4DA
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DD4DA on July 05, 2015, 09:57:20 pm
ILeider ist die Option CAN-Decode für mein Gerät nicht erhältlich - erst für die "A" Fassung.

the option CAN Decode is not available for my device - only for the "A" version.
I have DS2000 Non -A and here is CAN

Load the option Key for CAN

Check what version of FW,

Ich habe DS2000 Non -A und hier ist CAN Laden Sie die Wahltaste für CAN Überprüfen Sie, welche Version von FW

Well, does the 300Mhz option works? I would assume that this needs more different parts and the HW version 2 got them. The firmware maybe works, but none of the articles in this thread confirms the reliablity of the messurement at 300mhz bandwith with hw version 1.
Your Scope shows 100Mhz, 200Mhz, 300Mhz - i owen an DS2202 that works with 200Mhz bw and this shows just 200Mhz. 

DD4DA

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nbritton on September 16, 2015, 08:36:04 am
How many years of service do you figure you can get out of a 2000A? Am I right in assuming that the first thing to go on these is the capacitors in the power supply?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on September 16, 2015, 03:28:21 pm
Am I right in assuming that the first thing to go on these is the capacitors in the power supply?
No, the caps are Ok
See Dave's tear down , at 5 min.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BWZXGzAVkD8&t=5m0s

There were some failure points, but  corrections have been made in the production.
Time will tell
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on September 16, 2015, 04:15:43 pm
Are there any FW updates after ver 00.03.03.02.06?

I have downgraded back to ver 00.03.03.01 as I told some posts ago.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on September 16, 2015, 04:20:20 pm
Are there any FW updates after ver 00.03.03.02.06?

I have downgraded back to ver 00.03.03.01 as I told some posts ago.

This page shows all of the current firmware versions:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on September 16, 2015, 05:44:34 pm
This page shows all of the current firmware versions:
..
Thanks, so no new updates yet. The latest is that buggy one!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on September 16, 2015, 08:05:18 pm
Was anyone successful in down grading from 03.03.02.06 to 03.03.01.00 firmware on a DS2000A?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Godzil on September 24, 2015, 09:46:33 am
I have one question about the DS2000 series, I've bought mine 2 month ago, and I thinking about getting something to travel with my DSO, but of course the original box is not something really interesting for that and Batronix (its where I bought it) have an official bag from Rigol for that, but I've found nearly no information about it.

Does any of you own this bag, and what is your though about it?

And does anyone have another reference that would work for the DS2000?

Thanks :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on September 24, 2015, 10:44:53 am
Was anyone successful in down grading from 03.03.02.06 to 03.03.01.00 firmware on a DS2000A?
Just an update.

On a DS2000 (non a) it is possible to down grade, I did this and works OK. Presumably the A models have a new boot loader installed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jhufford on September 24, 2015, 06:36:15 pm
Now they're giving away all the advanced options (except bandwidth) on newly purchased scopes. To me, this removes all moral qualms about unlocking the bandwidth. Since memory and bandwidth are physically in the scope already it's not stealing to unlock them (few would think tearing the governor off of your car is stealing).. But getting the advanced decoding and triggers did seem like stealing, but now they're free! 

Which leaves the question: are they doing this to get rid of stock so they can come out with a new model? If so, will they start dropping the upfront price too? Anyone heard any whispers?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on September 25, 2015, 11:24:39 am
Now they're giving away all the advanced options (except bandwidth) on newly purchased scopes. To me, this removes all moral qualms about unlocking the bandwidth. Since memory and bandwidth are physically in the scope already it's not stealing to unlock them (few would think tearing the governor off of your car is stealing).. But getting the advanced decoding and triggers did seem like stealing, but now they're free! 

Which leaves the question: are they doing this to get rid of stock so they can come out with a new model? If so, will they start dropping the upfront price too? Anyone heard any whispers?
I never had any moral qualm as you call it. Companies don't have a moral, so why should I have this towards a company. To me its all in the game, RIGOL could have easily closed the loop hole, but they did not. In fact I suspect that RIGOL helped the guys that needed to unlock the scopes with hints and private keys, all too boost the sales. For example the DS1000Z license system was also suddenly unleashed with the help of an anonymous source.  That's now almost 2 years ago.

You might be right that RIGOL is soon coming with a new series, perhaps a 3000, with 4ch, 500MHz, 4Gsa/s for the same price as an 70MHz DS2000 (Wishful  thinking)
It could also be that they want to make live touch for Siglent, and make this DS2000 as attractive as possible.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on September 25, 2015, 12:40:19 pm
2GSa/s ADCs will always be expensive, I think.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jhufford on September 25, 2015, 06:18:13 pm
Quote
To me its all in the game, RIGOL could have easily closed the loop hole, but they did not. In fact I suspect that RIGOL helped the guys that needed to unlock the scopes with hints and private keys, all too boost the sales. For example the DS1000Z license system was also suddenly unleashed with the help of an anonymous source.  That's now almost 2 years ago.

I've wondered that too, perhaps Rigol doesn't mind unlocking, even secretly likes it, since it increases the desirability of the scope. Really, 300 MHz 2 GSa/s for under $900 is pretty kickass. Business customers aren't going to unlock them, and they'll want to keep the warranty, whereas hackability quite possibly increases overall revenue coming from us mere mortals. I agree about corporations, some of them are pretty awful.

I'm not sure when the DS2000 came out, but the DS2000A hasn't been out that long, although it didn't really seem like much of an upgrade, 50ohm input, maybe some firmware fixes. Did they actually redo the front end to get that extra 100Mhz, or was it more like swap out a component or two? Seems to me they are basically trying to squeeze a bit more life out of an existing platform before moving on (and the 4000 series is getting old too). I'm just trying to decide how long I should wait to purchase one, with lucky timing, there's the possibly of some killer deals to be had.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on September 25, 2015, 09:39:43 pm
Quote
I'm not sure when the DS2000 came out
I think it was autumn 2012.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on September 27, 2015, 06:33:05 am
Quote
I'm not sure when the DS2000 came out
I think it was autumn 2012.
Bought mine in summer 2012, with S/N. 003xx,  so I say spring time.  FW 00.01.02, lots of bugs under the bridge.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: etl17 on September 27, 2015, 08:55:26 pm
Another MSO2072A-S that experiencing issues with the latest 3.3.2.6 firmware.
The problem seems to be happening when only one channel is turned on and during changing the horizontal timebase (especially for slower timebase settings). The problem seems not to be happening when the Acquire->Anti-aliasing is off.

Has anyone figured out how to downgrade firmware on the A series?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DG5SAY on September 28, 2015, 08:11:22 am

Has anyone figured out how to downgrade firmware on the A series?

I´ve tried various ways to downgrade my DS2072A from awful version 3.3.2.6, but nothing worked. I have a bootloader version that prevents a downgrade, so I have to wait for the next firmware which will hopefully works better.  :--

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Godzil on September 28, 2015, 10:21:52 am
Another MSO2072A-S that experiencing issues with the latest 3.3.2.6 firmware.
The problem seems to be happening when only one channel is turned on and during changing the horizontal timebase (especially for slower timebase settings). The problem seems not to be happening when the Acquire->Anti-aliasing is off.

Has anyone figured out how to downgrade firmware on the A series?

What is the problem?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on September 28, 2015, 12:43:00 pm
Another MSO2072A-S that experiencing issues with the latest 3.3.2.6 firmware.
The problem seems to be happening when only one channel is turned on and during changing the horizontal timebase (especially for slower timebase settings). The problem seems not to be happening when the Acquire->Anti-aliasing is off.

Has anyone figured out how to downgrade firmware on the A series?

What is the problem?
The scope locks up . Details can be found if you go one page back
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Godzil on September 28, 2015, 02:38:47 pm
Oh!

I've got this problem on my brand new one, can't remember if it was too before I update it, I tought about a problem with it, but as it seems to be this version of the firmware.. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Godzil on September 30, 2015, 11:02:18 am
So no one have an experience with the official Rigol bag for the DS2000? :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on October 06, 2015, 06:48:56 am
Does any of you own this bag, and what is your though about it?

So no one have an experience with the official Rigol bag for the DS2000? :(

I have uploaded some notes and comments on the Rigol BAG-G1 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsomso-instrument-carry-case-rigol-vs-agilentkeysight/).  Hope you find it helpful.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Godzil on October 06, 2015, 09:09:19 am
Does any of you own this bag, and what is your though about it?

So no one have an experience with the official Rigol bag for the DS2000? :(

I have uploaded some notes and comments on the Rigol BAG-G1 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsomso-instrument-carry-case-rigol-vs-agilentkeysight/).  Hope you find it helpful.

Thanks!
Cheers :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: etl17 on October 15, 2015, 11:59:09 pm
It looks like there is a new firmware version 3.4 SP1 available as its shown here: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)

Hopefully, it solves the lock-ups introduced by 3.3 SP2


Anyone has access to it?  :-)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: f1rmb on October 16, 2015, 05:39:44 am
It looks like there is a new firmware version 3.4 SP1 available as its shown here: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)

Hopefully, it solves the lock-ups introduced by 3.3 SP2


Anyone has access to it?  :-)

I've just requested the latest firmware version, and received.... a firmware for the DM3068 inside a nice DS2000Update.zip file. Bummer.

Cheers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Orange on October 16, 2015, 07:46:00 pm
It looks like there is a new firmware version 3.4 SP1 available as its shown here: http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/form/1579/0012:d-0001/1/index.htm)

Hopefully, it solves the lock-ups introduced by 3.3 SP2


Anyone has access to it?  :-)
I did not install it yet, but you can find it here:

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-001a/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-001a/t/page/fm/0)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on October 16, 2015, 09:06:23 pm
Orange, thanks for the link!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on October 16, 2015, 09:34:51 pm
I was just thinking, the battery for the RTC will eventually need replacing. Is this hard to do? I remember some early pc motherboards had the battery inside a clock module and it made life difficult. Hopefully it is just a CR2032 or similar, out in the open on the main board, and the scope doesn't lose any calibration data when the battery does quit.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on October 16, 2015, 09:56:55 pm
I was just thinking, the battery for the RTC will eventually need replacing. Is this hard to do? I remember some early pc motherboards had the battery inside a clock module and it made life difficult. Hopefully it is just a CR2032 or similar, out in the open on the main board, and the scope doesn't lose any calibration data when the battery does quit.

There is a CR3032 in a battery holder on the back of the main DS2000 PCB:

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on October 17, 2015, 01:08:32 am
I just received a 03.04.01.00 for my DS2000, haven't tried it yet.

http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/DS2000Update.zip (http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/DS2000Update.zip)

There are also release notes and upgrade procedure: http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/ (http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CustomEngineerer on October 17, 2015, 04:30:02 am
Received an email from rigoltech.com email address today with a link to the new firmware and release notes for the DS2 Series. When I click the link for the release notes it downloads a file named "Release Notes DS2v3_3_2_6 6-17-15.pdf" which is the previous firmware and only contains the release notes for up to that revision. So no release notes for the new version. I downloaded the firmware linked in the email and get a zip file named DS2000Update.zip. When I unzip this file I get another zipped file named DS2000FWUpdate.zip. When I unzip this one it creates a directory/file named DS2000(DSP)Update_00.03.04.01.00/DS2000Update.GEL. At least it appears to contain the correct firmware, though not sure why its double zipped. I haven't bothered installing it yet because I haven't seen anyone else report that they have installed it and I am currently not having any problems with v00.03.03SP2.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: motocoder on October 17, 2015, 05:17:34 am
Received an email from rigoltech.com email address today with a link to the new firmware and release notes for the DS2 Series. When I click the link for the release notes it downloads a file named "Release Notes DS2v3_3_2_6 6-17-15.pdf" which is the previous firmware and only contains the release notes for up to that revision. So no release notes for the new version. I downloaded the firmware linked in the email and get a zip file named DS2000Update.zip. When I unzip this file I get another zipped file named DS2000FWUpdate.zip. When I unzip this one it creates a directory/file named DS2000(DSP)Update_00.03.04.01.00/DS2000Update.GEL. At least it appears to contain the correct firmware, though not sure why its double zipped. I haven't bothered installing it yet because I haven't seen anyone else report that they have installed it and I am currently not having any problems with v00.03.03SP2.

There firmware update system seems a little odd. Today, out of the blue, I got a firmware update email for the DP800 (DP832) power supply. I reviewed the release notes, and looked at the firmware, and if it's labeled correctly it's firmware version 00.01.14.00.03 released on 4/24/2015. Note sure why they decided to send that to me today. Of course, it's possible it's a different firmware, and the release notes weren't updated correctly. I didn't bother to compare the files, and quite frankly I'm not going to bother. Not looking to risk bricking my equipment without good reason.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: f1rmb on October 17, 2015, 05:23:43 am
Received an email from rigoltech.com email address today with a link to the new firmware and release notes for the DS2 Series. When I click the link for the release notes it downloads a file named "Release Notes DS2v3_3_2_6 6-17-15.pdf" which is the previous firmware and only contains the release notes for up to that revision. So no release notes for the new version. I downloaded the firmware linked in the email and get a zip file named DS2000Update.zip. When I unzip this file I get another zipped file named DS2000FWUpdate.zip. When I unzip this one it creates a directory/file named DS2000(DSP)Update_00.03.04.01.00/DS2000Update.GEL. At least it appears to contain the correct firmware, though not sure why its double zipped. I haven't bothered installing it yet because I haven't seen anyone else report that they have installed it and I am currently not having any problems with v00.03.03SP2.

There firmware update system seems a little odd. Today, out of the blue, I got a firmware update email for the DP800 (DP832) power supply. I reviewed the release notes, and looked at the firmware, and if it's labeled correctly it's firmware version 00.01.14.00.03 released on 4/24/2015. Note sure why they decided to send that to me today. Of course, it's possible it's a different firmware, and the release notes weren't updated correctly. I didn't bother to compare the files, and quite frankly I'm not going to bother. Not looking to risk bricking my equipment without good reason.
Same here, received the same email with the "old" firmware.

EDIT: just done an md5sum of this one and the original 1.14 archives, they are identical.

Cheers.
---
Daniel
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: f1rmb on October 17, 2015, 06:11:37 am
I just received a 03.04.01.00 for my DS2000, haven't tried it yet.

http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/DS2000Update.zip (http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/DS2000Update.zip)

There are also release notes and upgrade procedure: http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/ (http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/)

I've just done a quick and dirt upgrade (+ FRAM, default settings, autocal). It looks like I can't lockup my scope anymore.

Cheers.
---
Daniel
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on October 17, 2015, 07:01:03 am
I just received a 03.04.01.00 for my DS2000, haven't tried it yet.

http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/DS2000Update.zip (http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/DS2000Update.zip)

There are also release notes and upgrade procedure: http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/ (http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/)

I've just done a quick and dirt upgrade (+ FRAM, default settings, autocal). It looks like I can't lockup my scope anymore.

Cheers.
---
Daniel
Good to hear!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: BloodyCactus on October 17, 2015, 09:50:21 pm
Received an email from rigoltech.com email address today with a link to the new firmware and release notes for the DS2 Series. When I click the link for the release notes it downloads a file named "Release Notes DS2v3_3_2_6 6-17-15.pdf" which is the previous firmware and only contains the release notes for up to that revision. So no release notes for the new version. I downloaded the firmware linked in the email and get a zip file named DS2000Update.zip. When I unzip this file I get another zipped file named DS2000FWUpdate.zip. When I unzip this one it creates a directory/file named DS2000(DSP)Update_00.03.04.01.00/DS2000Update.GEL. At least it appears to contain the correct firmware, though not sure why its double zipped. I haven't bothered installing it yet because I haven't seen anyone else report that they have installed it and I am currently not having any problems with v00.03.03SP2.

There firmware update system seems a little odd. Today, out of the blue, I got a firmware update email for the DP800 (DP832) power supply. I reviewed the release notes, and looked at the firmware, and if it's labeled correctly it's firmware version 00.01.14.00.03 released on 4/24/2015. Note sure why they decided to send that to me today. Of course, it's possible it's a different firmware, and the release notes weren't updated correctly. I didn't bother to compare the files, and quite frankly I'm not going to bother. Not looking to risk bricking my equipment without good reason.
Same here, received the same email with the "old" firmware.

EDIT: just done an md5sum of this one and the original 1.14 archives, they are identical.

Cheers.
---
Daniel


they must have had an email glitch, I got an email for the DG1032Z AWG with firmware 'latest firmware' from june they sent me back in june!

they glitched up somewhere
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CustomEngineerer on October 18, 2015, 09:22:38 am
I was using my Rigol DS2072A-S tonight and noticed what seems to be a bug. At the time I noticed it I was running the 00.03.03.02.06 (aka 00.03.03SP2) that was release in June 2015. When the Trigger->Coupling is set to AC or LFReject the temporary line that shows where the trigger level is at when adjusting it does not show up. If Trigger->Coupling is set to DC or HFReject it shows up. I tried resetting the scope, setting AUTO, running the Auto calibration as well as changing various settings but nothing else seemed to make a difference. Finally I went ahead and updated to the 00.03.04.01.00 firmware that was released a couple of days ago hoping maybe it was something that had been fixed (assuming it really is a bug). I am still seeing the same behavior. I can't say when this behavior started (again, assuming it is a bug) but tonight was the first time I had noticed it. I generally use one of the other 2 places on the screen that actually shows the numerical value of the trigger level while adjusting and don't ever really change the Trigger->Coupling setting so its possible it has always been this way.

AC Trigger Coupling with no trigger level line.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=177015)

LFReject Trigger Coupling with no trigger level line.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=177017)

DC Trigger Coupling with visible trigger level line.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=177019)

HFReject Trigger Coupling with visible trigger level line.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=177021)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Godzil on October 18, 2015, 12:43:31 pm
As far as I know, not showing the trigger bar in trigger AC coupled is normal, as it would not mean anything.

Can't remember the vids, but Dave speak about that in one of his video.

For LFReject I don't know if this si normal, but as we remove the low frequency part it would make sense, as the DC component is "low frequency".

Here is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5aAjd9YPok (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5aAjd9YPok)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DG5SAY on October 18, 2015, 04:34:36 pm
I just received a 03.04.01.00 for my DS2000, haven't tried it yet.

http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/DS2000Update.zip (http://rev.muxr.org/rigol/DS2000Update.zip)


I´ve done the update with this latest firmware (03.04.01.00) on my DS2072A (HW 2.0), an what should I say: no more lockup so far I can say!  :-+

I hope not that someone else finds new errors.  :phew:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mosaic on October 18, 2015, 05:54:35 pm
Regarding that FW update...there's a way it can brick the scope.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds2072a-full-300mhz-all-options-upgrade-plus-bricking-unbricking/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds2072a-full-300mhz-all-options-upgrade-plus-bricking-unbricking/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 18, 2015, 06:02:35 pm
Regarding that FW update...there's a way it can brick the scope.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds2072a-full-300mhz-all-options-upgrade-plus-bricking-unbricking/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds2072a-full-300mhz-all-options-upgrade-plus-bricking-unbricking/)

It's not possible to brick the DSO - it has a bootloader. The guy that wrote the mistitled post you linked to is using the term incorrectly because he didn't understand how to load new FW correctly. He goes on to say how he "unbricked" it in 3 minutes. Sorry, but that's not "bricking/unbricking" - that's realizing you updated the FW incorrectly, then doing it the way Rigol tells you to do it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CustomEngineerer on October 19, 2015, 02:50:46 am
As far as I know, not showing the trigger bar in trigger AC coupled is normal, as it would not mean anything.

Can't remember the vids, but Dave speak about that in one of his video.

For LFReject I don't know if this si normal, but as we remove the low frequency part it would make sense, as the DC component is "low frequency".

Here is the video:


You are correct. I had been using the previous firmware since at least July and pretty much always leave the Trigger Coupling set to AC so no idea why I noticed that last night. I think subconsciously I must have been looking for an excuse to go ahead and install the new firmware.

So far I haven't had any issues with the new firmware though I wasn't having any with the previous one either.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: simonb65 on December 17, 2015, 03:02:09 pm
Rigol DS2000(A) Firmware 00.03.04.02.01 (15th Dec 2015) is now available on the http://int.rigol.com/Product/Index/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Product/Index/3) site.

Does anyone know what has changed/added/fixed in this latest release ? There doesn't seem to be a release note in the .rar !
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 17, 2015, 04:35:06 pm
I installed it witout problems to my DS2202. I don't know what is fixed!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AgiRigSig on December 17, 2015, 04:37:22 pm
I installed it witout problems to my DS2202. I don't know what is fixed!

with all options installed?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 17, 2015, 04:42:45 pm
with all options installed?

Yes, I have official options exept one. All are still there.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AgiRigSig on December 17, 2015, 04:44:14 pm
with all options installed?

Yes, I have official options exept one. All are still there.

OK, thx. for the quick reply  :-)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bud on December 18, 2015, 03:06:25 am
Did anyone notice rigol morons changed their slogan

Used  to be "Beyond measure"
which was very good reflection of their products which could not be used to accurately measure anything, only beyond it.

It is now not less moronic one
(http://i.imgur.com/8yyyYDP.jpg)

Yeah, you got it right this time rigol, it is going to be the "nothing" part. You will be there soon.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dav on December 20, 2015, 08:59:03 am
Does DS2072A mount poor quality components on board (no brand capacitors and so on...) like the DS1054Z??
Or does it have better components?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AgiRigSig on December 20, 2015, 11:22:44 am
Does DS2072A mount poor quality components on board (no brand capacitors and so on...) like the DS1054Z??
Or does it have better components?
http://www.eevblog.com/2012/09/26/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2012/09/26/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157631618295437/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157631618295437/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 27, 2016, 04:45:45 am
Rigol DS2000(A) Firmware 00.03.04.02.01 (15th Dec 2015) is now available on the http://int.rigol.com/Product/Index/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Product/Index/3) site.

Does anyone know what has changed/added/fixed in this latest release ? There doesn't seem to be a release note in the .rar !

I obtained the firmware from Rigol and a changelog can be found here (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/s-0756-1512/Bct/l-3f49/l-3f49:1860/ct2_0/1?sid=issxBr5au). Looks like no major changes. As usual I have loaded all missing versions onto my mirror at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/) . Sorry for the hiatus!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Bud on January 27, 2016, 05:44:25 am
Except it introduced a horrible bug  that has not been fixed yet

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-(00-03-04-02-01)-bug-of-rigol-ds2000a-oscilloscope/msg830091/#msg830091 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-(00-03-04-02-01)-bug-of-rigol-ds2000a-oscilloscope/msg830091/#msg830091)

Do not use this version. Better yet, do not buy this shit in the first place.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 28, 2016, 11:29:02 pm
I obtained the firmware from Rigol and I have loaded all missing versions onto my mirror at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/) . !
Thanks K., seems like Rigol is letting the users alpha test :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on January 28, 2016, 11:49:09 pm
If Rigol could outsource software to a competent firm, maybe we would have a complete scope, but hey this is why it's cheap. I am holding off on Firmware the one I am on, works ok for me. My RTM1054 is held up due to bad weather  :-BROKE
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Veketti on March 09, 2016, 03:26:14 pm
Dear All,

New to the forum so hello everyone. I'm just about buying Rigol DS2072A as I just sold my Owon 7102. My question is does anyone know if Rigol is releasing new version of 2072 as it is like 4 years old already? They have promotion for the serial decoding functions and extra memory so I have a feeling that it's in EOL as they're offering those. If they're about to release new version in about month or so I might just wait for it.

Thank you advance.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Veketti on March 20, 2016, 08:20:39 am
Hello,

Ok, so I bought the DS2072A and I'm quite happy with it. It has firmware version 00.03.03.SP2 and I've managed to get it freeze two times already without even trying hard. I quess that was the problem of this version. Are those latter versions any better and do you recommend upgrading the version and if yes, what version is recommended?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on March 20, 2016, 03:35:24 pm
Hello,

Ok, so I bought the DS2072A and I'm quite happy with it. It has firmware version 00.03.03.SP2 and I've managed to get it freeze two times already without even trying hard. I quess that was the problem of this version. Are those latter versions any better and do you recommend upgrading the version and if yes, what version is recommended?
I don't remember having lockups with 00.03.03.SP1 (I did have frequent lockups with a version that came on my scope, forgot which version it was). I guess they may have introduced issues in SP2. Anyways I've been running 03.04.01.00 without lockups.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on March 20, 2016, 06:29:03 pm
As usual I have loaded all missing versions onto my mirror at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/ (http://gotroot.ca/rigol/) . Sorry for the hiatus!
Thanks VE7XEN for all the versions of Firmware on your site.
MB Veketti can try the newer 03.04.02.01 FW
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on April 24, 2016, 01:28:02 pm
hey all :)

just a quick question: are there any news about any new firmware versions? I run 00.03.01.00.04 but I read about a newer version here and I'm not sure about the actual state

and beside that: is it possible that there's a decoding bug concerning SPI mode 0?
while experimenting with digital potentiometers I noticed that the sent value does not decode correctly when SPI mode 0 is used, can anyone second that?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 24, 2016, 09:38:55 pm
just a quick question: are there any news about any new firmware versions? I run 00.03.01.00.04 but I read about a newer version here and I'm not sure about the actual state
See the gotroot site in post above for 3 later versions of firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: NikWing on April 25, 2016, 03:30:03 pm
thx, Teneyes, but it is safe to use?
I mean, basically, do you suggest updating from "my" version?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on August 03, 2016, 04:43:10 pm
After 3 years waitinf for a good update, i put my DS2202 in the oblivion room.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 03, 2016, 04:50:39 pm
After 3 years waitinf for a good update, i put my DS2202 in the oblivion room.

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? The DSO works fine. I've been using mine to do jobs for the last 4 years; I've certainly made the money back I spent on it tenfold at least.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 03, 2016, 05:26:14 pm
After 3 years waitinf for a good update, i put my DS2202 in the oblivion room.

I went back and looked at the 7 posts you made here 2 years ago complaining about shifted bus decoding. So I just ran a test using I2C (I don't use SPI, so I can't test that) and I don't get any shift. You'll notice the image shows that we're looking at a point in the I2C data that is ~4ms from the trigger point.

So I don't know what problem you're having. In any case, to put a very good DSO in the 'oblivion room' because you say it shifts the bus decoding when you're zoomed in on a portion of memory, when almost every other inexpensive Chinese DSO (Siglent, Owon, etc) doesn't even decode the entire memory - only display memory (i.e. if the trigger point isn't on the screen, they can't decode properly) - seems crazy.

(http://daysalive.com/share/No_Shift.png)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nctnico on August 03, 2016, 05:56:10 pm
Maybe luchog missed the latest update from 2015 but I have no idea what that update fixes. But if he really doesn't want to use the scope anymore he could axe it like that other guy did with his Owon scope and post a picture for our amusement >:D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 03, 2016, 06:05:09 pm
It would be better to give the scope away to a fellow forum member from a poor country, similar like that great gentleman Dubbie did a few weeks ago with his fully spec:ed Rigol DS1104Z-S:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/free-oscilloscope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/free-oscilloscope/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 03, 2016, 06:06:38 pm
Maybe luchog missed the latest update from 2015 but I have no idea what that update fixes. But if he really doesn't want to use the scope anymore he could axe it like that other guy did with his Owon scope and post a picture for our amusement >:D

Unlike the Owon SDS7102, you could easily resell a DS2202 for a reasonable amount of cash. And anybody that's amused by axes through test equipment really needs to get out in the real world a bit more.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on August 03, 2016, 07:45:48 pm
There is new DS/MSO2000/A/-S Firmware available: 00.03.05.00.01 {July 25, 2016}.

Edit:  Request a download link for this from http://www.rigolna.com (http://www.rigolna.com) (Rigol U.S.A.), etc.  You will find the new Firmware for the DS2K
series O'Scope here as of today.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on August 03, 2016, 07:57:51 pm
There is new DS/MSO2000/A/-S Firmware available: 00.03.05.00.01 {July 25, 2016}.

Download link?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on August 03, 2016, 11:18:44 pm
And anybody that's amused by axes through test equipment really needs to get out in the real world a bit more.
I feel the same way about people who smash really good name brand musical instruments on stage. 😡
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: I4E on August 04, 2016, 12:33:33 am
Just and FYI,, anyone who does do an update on the firmware of your scope.. I know it's probably common sense but don't turn the unit off  or interrupt it during the update.   Also if you put the update on a USB stick to put into the scope  and it doesn't work It might be the USB Stick. For some reason  the Rigol units can be fussy about which sticks they'll accept.

Personally I think for the price it's a good scope.  If SPI decoding was important for me.. I probably wouldn't recommend it for that.

Have a great day everyone!!

Joy Torres
Instruments 4 Engineers
www.instruments4engineers.com (http://www.instruments4engineers.com)

Authorized UK & Ireland Rigol Distributor
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nctnico on August 04, 2016, 12:48:27 am
It would be better to give the scope away to a fellow forum member from a poor country, similar like that great gentleman Dubbie did a few weeks ago with his fully spec:ed Rigol DS1104Z-S:
Great idea (NOT!):
(http://www.greenpeace.org/international/ReSizes/OriginalWatermarked/PageFiles/24477/ewastemap.jpg)
(From http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/detox/electronics/the-e-waste-problem/where-does-e-waste-end-up/ (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/detox/electronics/the-e-waste-problem/where-does-e-waste-end-up/) )

It seems noble to give away the sh*t you don't want anymore and think it will be usefull for the less fortunate but in the end of the day the less fortunate also need a proper tool just as he/she needs an iPhone and a PC capable of running Windows 10. I've been down that road before when I wanted to give away an old PC. Next thing I know I was sitting in a tiny PC shop somewhere in Asia re-assembling the damn thing with a new motherboard etc wishing somebody donated a working AC to the shopping mall owner.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 04, 2016, 01:20:21 am
It seems noble to give away the sh*t you don't want anymore and think it will be usefull for the less fortunate but in the end of the day the less fortunate also need a proper tool just as he/she needs an iPhone and a PC capable of running Windows 10.

Why are you posting such idiotic crap in a thread about a DSO you've never owned, likely never used, and have no real experience with?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nctnico on August 04, 2016, 12:35:49 pm
It seems noble to give away the sh*t you don't want anymore and think it will be usefull for the less fortunate but in the end of the day the less fortunate also need a proper tool just as he/she needs an iPhone and a PC capable of running Windows 10.
Why are you posting such idiotic crap in a thread about a DSO you've never owned, likely never used, and have no real experience with?
Why? Simple: read a few posts back and you'll notice someone disagrees with your opinion about how useful this scope is. Then people start whining about giving it away instead of putting it in storage until the end of time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 04, 2016, 12:50:32 pm
Why? Simple: read a few posts back and you'll notice someone disagrees with your opinion about how useful this scope is. Then people start whining about giving it away instead of putting it in storage until the end of time.

You're still talking out of your ass (i.e. being a troll); someone else's experience is not your own. I realize you have some deep-seated need to post 6 times a day here, but that still doesn't excuse posting crap you know nothing about.

I'm sorry you got burned, but the Rigol DS2000 is not - and never was - the Siglent SDS2000. Of course, you'd know that if you had bothered to watch the full 75-minute in-depth comparison review I posted the week before you made the foolish decision to buy that firmware-deficient DSO - but of course, as you wrote yourself, you lack the attention span to do that. Instead, you bought it anyway, then proceeded to complain continually (and still do to this day) about stuff I had clearly pointed out in the review.

Virtually anyone with any electronics experience and a need for a DSO would be happy to be gifted with a Rigol DS2000.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nctnico on August 04, 2016, 01:42:34 pm
Sorry but you are starting to mix things here. I ordered the Siglent SDS2000 before you posted the video but it took a while to get delivered. However my biggest mistake with the SDS2000 was not buying it but keeping it while thinking Siglent would fix the firmware issues in the near future (they still haven't after 2 years BTW). And who is going to watch a 75 minute video while the same information can be put into a short text you can read in under a minute? Text is also easier to refer to later on than a bunch of timestamps for a video. Many vloggers would really benefit from a course in making informative videos and (for starters) use a script for their videos so the end result can be edited into a fast paced short film. Look at the videos from Keysight with Daniel Bogdanoff to see how it's done or any commercial if you want to take fast paced to the extreme while making sure to get the message across.

And don't claim I know nothing about the DS2000. It doesn't take hands-on experience to form an opinion; there are enough reviews and postings about it. At the end of 2015 I looked into both the DS2000 and DS4000 very carefully when looking for an extra scope but decided not to buy either of those due to firmware bugs and price/performance. I'm actually wondering what other scopes you have hands on experience with because your DS2000 seems to be like some sort of golden standard to you. Rigol isn't a soccer club.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on August 04, 2016, 04:22:28 pm
There is new DS/MSO2000/A/-S Firmware available: 00.03.05.00.01 {July 25, 2016}.

Edit:  Request a download link for this from http://www.rigolna.com (http://www.rigolna.com) (Rigol U.S.A.), etc.  You will find the new Firmware for the DS2K
series O'Scope here as of today.

Thanks ted572!

I received the latest firmware (00.03.05.00.01) from Rigol support within a few hours of submitting the firmware request form.
Looks good so far.  The reported bugs in the last firmware version appear to be fixed (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-(00-03-04-02-01)-bug-of-rigol-ds2000a-oscilloscope/msg830091/#msg830091 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-(00-03-04-02-01)-bug-of-rigol-ds2000a-oscilloscope/msg830091/#msg830091)).
They also included a text file of release notes/change log for each firmware version to date (attached).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 04, 2016, 04:25:51 pm
In many of the EEVBlog videos Dave uses his Rigol DS2000 when he has to do measurements!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: DG5SAY on August 04, 2016, 05:29:08 pm
There is new DS/MSO2000/A/-S Firmware available: 00.03.05.00.01 {July 25, 2016}.

Download link?

direct download without "request":

http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/p-001a/Bct/-/-/ct1_0/1?sid=TV2%3AMThO8uNxL (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/ct/1579/p-001a/Bct/-/-/ct1_0/1?sid=TV2%3AMThO8uNxL)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 04, 2016, 06:44:44 pm
Sorry but you are starting to mix things here.

I don't think I'm mixing things up. I'm hardly the first person on this forum to point out that you appear to be making random angry posts about Chinese test equipment with no apparent motivation other than a chip on your shoulder about making a 'mistake' with the Siglent SDS2000.

Quote
And who is going to watch a 75 minute video while the same information can be put into a short text you can read in under a minute?

No offense, but I don't need advice on brevity from someone writing TL;DR reviews that don't fit into a single post - nor video-creation advice from someone that has a diametrically opposed viewpoint from me on how most people prefer to get information about a product they're thinking of buying.

Quote
It doesn't take hands-on experience to form an opinion; there are enough reviews and postings about it.

Yes - that's the way opinion works; unfortunately, you sometimes mistake it for fact. And anyone that has formed an opinion about something based merely on other people's opinions - only to change it later after some real world experience - knows that it's a fool's errand to spout off based solely on that.

It leads to erroneous statements - like the one you made recently in another thread about Rigol's "inability" to decode it's entire memory.

Quote
At the end of 2015 I looked into both the DS2000 and DS4000 very carefully when looking for an extra scope but decided not to buy either of those due to firmware bugs and price/performance.

As I recall from your postings of the time, you never seriously considered the DS2000 because you absolutely insisted on a 4-channel DSO. Of course, I could be wrong.

Quote
I'm actually wondering what other scopes you have hands on experience with because your DS2000 seems to be like some sort of golden standard to you.

This is an argumentum ad hominem, since my overall hands-on experience is unrelated to your total lack of hands-on experience with the DS2000 - but I'll answer it anyway:

1) It doesn't take much research here to see that I've used a Rigol DS1052E for a month (while posting a fair bit about it), used a Rigol MSO1074Z for several weeks, and have posted video reviews of the Owon SDS7102, Hantek DSO5062B, Rigol DS2072, and Siglent SDS2304 (after using each DSO for at least a few weeks). That is the extent of my experience with DSOs. But since I'm specifically interested in the evolution of inexpensive Chinese DSOs and reviewing them, that works just fine for me.

In terms of analog oscilloscopes... well, I've been using them since 1978, so I've lost track of how many I've used or had my hands on.

2) If by "golden standard" you mean that it's the inexpensive Chinese DSO I currently own with which to compare other inexpensive Chinese DSOs - or that most of the other Chinese test equipment manufacturers have been copying Rigol's 'moves' for the last decade - sure, I guess so. But it doesn't take more than a few minutes of watching one of my videos to see me pointing out some feature implemented in a better way on the DSO I'm reviewing than on my DS2000.

Quote
Rigol isn't a soccer club.

Do you actually read posts here or just create them? I've written hundreds of posts critical of both Rigol and my DS2000 - seriously, man, you need to get that attention-span problem sorted out.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: neslekkim on August 04, 2016, 06:50:39 pm
from the release notes:

Quote
v00.03.04.01.00  2015/10/10
     - Supporting the EDU models for education market

EDU models?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CustomEngineerer on August 04, 2016, 10:34:59 pm
Also from the release notes. So, is this version 00.03.05.00.01 or 00.04.04.00.05? Also shows the date as 2016/05/31, so has this release really been ready that long? I seem to remember the MSO/DSO4000 getting a firmware update a couple of months back. Maybe Rigol just grabbed the wrong text for these release notes, or maybe the same bug was present on the 4000 and got fixed in the 2000 as well?

[Updated Contents]
--------------------
v00.04.04.00.05  2016/05/31
     - Modified the naming rule for saving screen snap
     - Fixed the bug of the wave stop updating
     - Fixed the bug of Math expression
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 04, 2016, 10:43:55 pm
Also from the release notes. So, is this version 00.03.05.00.01 or 00.04.04.00.05? Also shows the date as 2016/05/31, so has this release really been ready that long?

System Info reports "Software version: 00.03.05.00.01 / Date: June 20th, 2016"

I assume the v00.04.04.00.05 listed in the Release Notes is a typo.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 04, 2016, 10:53:59 pm
They also included a text file of release notes/change log for each firmware version to date.

FWIW, there are literally dozens of changes, extras, features, etc. that they've implemented in later firmware versions which are not documented in these release notes (just one that springs to mind: when they added EXT trigger as a source for the Pulse Trigger).

I've never understood why this is the case. Bad or lazy record-keeping? They don't want a paper-trail of when certain features are implemented? The public release notes differ from the private? Who knows?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on August 04, 2016, 11:16:44 pm
They also included a text file of release notes/change log for each firmware version to date.

FWIW, there are literally dozens of changes, extras, features, etc. that they've implemented in later firmware versions which are not documented in these release notes (just one that springs to mind: when they added EXT trigger as a source for the Pulse Trigger).

I've never understood why this is the case. Bad or lazy record-keeping? They don't want a paper-trail of when certain features are implemented? The public release notes differ from the private? Who knows?

Rigol support also included a web link to another release note in the email.  I don't know if this is the public release note that you are referring to.  It lists more changes/fixes for each release but does not include an entry for this latest firmware.  It is attached below.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 04, 2016, 11:22:27 pm
Rigol support also included a web link to another release note in the email.  I don't know if this is the public release note that you are referring to.  It lists more changes/fixes for each release but does not include an entry for this latest firmware.  It is attached below.

Yes, this is more detailed and closer to something that looks like real release notes (although it only goes back to v00.03.01.00.04).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on August 05, 2016, 02:32:45 am
Re. The new DS/MSO2000/A/-S Firmware (00.03.05.00.01) {July 25, 2016} and the provided Release Notes with it.

1. The PDF file version is not applicable to the new Firmware.  So why did Rigol provide it?  Who knows!
2. The Text file version (provided in the ZIP file) is valid, except that it should have stated that  FW 00.03.05.00.01 is for 'All the DS/MSO2000/A/-S Series Digital Oscilloscopes', and 'Not just the DS/MSO2000A Series'.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on August 05, 2016, 03:48:20 am
Haven't used my DS2072 in a while but I might upgrade to this firmware.. skipped the last few due to bugs.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: luchog on August 05, 2016, 05:33:40 pm
About my last post.
-After 3 years waitinf for a good update, i put my DS2202 in the oblivion room.

Because:
- Knobs are very imprecise and slow.
- Sometimes trigger doesnt work.
- When i turn it on most of the times show full screen noise and hangs, sometimes just hungs.
- Sometimes it just does not turn on.

After starting most of the time it is working ok, anyway i don´t feel confortable using it.

I like the idea to donate it, here in my country there are a lot of peopple that can need it.

Thanks for your comments.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Muxr on August 05, 2016, 05:46:39 pm
About my last post.
-After 3 years waitinf for a good update, i put my DS2202 in the oblivion room.

Because:
- Knobs are very imprecise and slow.
- Sometimes trigger doesnt work.
- When i turn it on most of the times show full screen noise and hangs, sometimes just hungs.
- Sometimes it just does not turn on.

After starting most of the time it is working ok, anyway i don´t feel confortable using it.

I like the idea to donate it, here in my country there are a lot of peopple that can need it.

Thanks for your comments.
I had issues with my DS2000 when I first got it due to firmware bugs.. mainly the hanging. But I had settled on the 03_03_02 which has worked well for me.. I have not gotten a single hang with it.

Ergonomically speaking you're right.. it's not the easiest scope to use.. it can be sluggish and the knobs aren't the best. However for $800 how much I paid for it, it's par for the course. It does the job.. and it's a fairly capable scope. I think this is common with all the Chinese B-Brand scopes.. some are even worse.

My main scope has been the RTM 1054 (which is awesome) for almost a year now so I haven't really needed to use my DS2000 ever since I got my RTM.

Thought about selling it, but it's a decent enough secondary scope for when I need to take it to a meet up.. or when I need more channels than what RTM can provide.. so I've decided to keep it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on August 05, 2016, 05:50:39 pm
Because:
- Knobs are very imprecise and slow.
- Sometimes trigger doesnt work.
- When i turn it on most of the times show full screen noise and hangs, sometimes just hungs.
- Sometimes it just does not turn on.

It sounds like your DSO didn't work properly (or stopped working properly). Aside from the occasional imprecision of the knobs (which I've also experienced on other Chinese brands), I haven't had any of those problems with my DS2000.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flash2b on August 25, 2016, 07:00:07 am
Does anybody know if Rigol will built in the nice 16K based FFT option that was introduced in the DS1000Z series to offer better resolution than the current screen based version ?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CustomEngineerer on August 25, 2016, 04:15:55 pm
Doesn't seem like it. They released a new firmware for the DS2000 series a month ago with no changes to the FFT. The enhancement on the DS1000Z was sometime end of last year or beginning of this year so Rigol would have had plenty of time to try and get it in the DS2000 firmware they released last month if they were going to.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bonanz on September 18, 2016, 11:43:22 pm
guys, I'm having an issue here.  I bought a ds2072, a long time ago, and I remember doing the "change the trial timeout dates to never expire" for the features hack in the early days.  I since almost forgot I even had this scope because of other options available to me, but just recently found it and pulled it out and blew the dust off and checked the latest states of hacks and saw there was a super keygen out.  I just used the keygen tool and entered the key and got the "option installed!" just fine.  Went to reboot and it is stuck on the Rigol boot splash with the squares with the blue "working" square that shows progress and the blue dot stops at some point and it just sits....

Did I do something bad here?  Was there conflict with these methods that casued me a problem? Below is the a screenshot I took back when I did the trial date hack, I never updated the firmware or anything since then. so it should have all been the same.

broke out into a cold sweat when this happened, but thought I'd jump on here and ask the experts, since I have a big gap of time missing on all the steps that happened from the trial hack to now the keygen....

any tips on next steps to take? :-\ :'(

Thanks Marmad, I just saw there was a trick to show the detailed info... so here's that, i thought for some reason i had super old firmware version that possibly didn't show the detailed stuff.  I'll carefully read over your great info.  thanks for all your hard work, tried out your software really quick and it looks awesome so far.

(http://i43.tinypic.com/303b6g0.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on September 18, 2016, 11:53:47 pm
Did I do something bad here?  Was there conflict with these methods that casued me a problem? Below is the a screenshot I took back when I did the trial date hack, I never updated the firmware or anything since then. so it should have all been the same.

broke out into a cold sweat when this happened, but thought I'd jump on here and ask the experts, since I have a big gap of time missing on all the steps that happened from the trial hack to now the keygen....

You definitely should upgrade the FW to v3 or later - there are many new features and fixed bugs, and it's even possible the keys were changed since the first version of the FW (which is what your DSO is running in the image). I'd upgrade the FW and clear the FRAM on the first boot-up (instructions on page 1 of this thread), and then reuse the keygen, if needed.

But don't worry - the DSO has a boot-loader and it's virtually impossible to brick it.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bonanz on September 19, 2016, 12:09:55 am
ok, so I did the factory reset grey button during boot up and it booted back up.  the version info is all the same except now it's showing model 2202 and my serial num is showing DS2A0000000001.  When I go to look at installed options its greyed out.

so the best course of action would be to just upgrade to v3 firmware and then if needed reapply the keygen?  Does the serial being 0'd out matter?

edit: uh hate to ask tihs noob question, but is the 2000a fimrware compatible with the 2000 (non-a)? also, I just went to rigol's site to look for the firmware options, am I taking crazy pills, it keeps pushing me to a form to enter all my contact info to request firmware...?

edit 2: found this one off page searching google, http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-001a/t/page/fm/0 (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/fs/blocks/showLandingPage/a/1579/p/p-001a/t/page/fm/0)  has ver 00.03.03.01, I assume this is legit?

edit 3: okay, i guess I learned digging around there's no difference between the ds2000/ds2000a in terms of firmware, updated with the firmware at that link and it is actually showing 3.05.  Re-did the keygen with my now defaulted serial number, and I'm right as rain. 

Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: whotopia on December 22, 2016, 02:33:58 pm
I tried your (bonanz's) procedure with the latest firmware 00.03.05.     I also have the same problem with serial number DS2A0000000001 on my DS2072A. 

However in my case I needed to do a full 32MB memory dump for rigup 0.4 to find any keys. 
But with the keys Rigup finds, it cant seem to generate codes.    In fact the executable consistently just crashes.  ( I have tried both windows and linux)
I suspect it has something to do with further broken/incorrect data in my RAM dump. 

I'd like to try it against someone else's dump.   Is there anyone willing to share a full memory dump with me? 
If there is anyone who can offer some ideas on how to restore serial number, it would also be much appreciated.

Thanks!

EDIT 1:   SUCCESS!!
 So in reviewing the output of "rigup.exe scan SCPI-Data.scpi" I just realised that the executable returns RC5KEY1,RC5KEY2,XXTEAKEY,PUBKEY,PRIVKEY  but the SERIAL field is missing in my case.  That's what was causing the RIGUP LICENSE command to fail.     So for me it turns out the solution was as simple as to add a line to my keys file:

   SERIAL:         DS2A0000000001

So steps were to :
1. run .\rigup.exe scan SCPI-Data.scpi > EC-keys.txt
2. add the SERIAL line above
3. run .\rigup.exe license ./EC-keys.txt NS8H

And presto that worked.

Still if anyone knows how to restore the correct serial number I'd much like to know.   


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Daruosha on January 05, 2017, 04:51:20 pm
It might be a silly question, but whatever i did, I couldn't figure out how to measure pulse counts of a signal within specified courses. My cheap DS1000Z does it easily, but on DS2000z, i'm screwed.

Any suggestion?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pa3bca on January 05, 2017, 05:12:43 pm
The 1000Z also doesn't count pulses, it only counts pluses... :-DD
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Daruosha on January 05, 2017, 06:08:43 pm
Bummer...

I cannot believe this. For a second I thought, it doesn't have the ability to measure pulses, but wondered no way, all cheap scopes have this measurement. Surely this one has too.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Daruosha on January 05, 2017, 06:14:14 pm

The 1000Z also doesn't count pulses, it only counts pluses... :-DD


Hahaha, took a minute to got your point. I think in the last firmware they have fixed the spelling. Not sure, too busy to double check that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Daruosha on February 03, 2017, 12:27:36 pm
I couldn't find the maximum input voltage in 50ohm input impedance mode and the manual says CAT I 300 Vrms, CAT II 100 Vrms with Transient Overvoltage 1000 Vpk only in 1M ohm impedance mode.

Does anyone know the proper input protection figures?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tautech on February 03, 2017, 12:32:13 pm
I couldn't find the maximum input voltage in 50ohm input impedance mode and the manual says CAT I 300 Vrms, CAT II 100 Vrms with Transient Overvoltage 1000 Vpk only in 1M ohm impedance mode.

Does anyone know the proper input protection figures?
Are you sure it's not listed on the front panel alongside the BNC inputs ?
Normally in 50 \$\Omega\$ input mode max voltage is only 5V, so take care or you'll damage the inputs.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Daruosha on February 03, 2017, 08:42:34 pm
Ooops!! Yes, i looked everywhere but the writings next to the BNCs  :palm:

Well, i was trying to find a proper attenuator for measurement and I knew the common 5V limitation, however I had doubts about it and well... Thanks :)

Still, it's not been mentioned in the manual  :blah:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tautech on February 03, 2017, 08:46:23 pm
Ooops!! Yes, i looked everywhere but the writings next to the BNCs  :palm:

Well, i was trying to find a proper attenuator for measurement and I knew the common 5V limitation, however I had doubts about it and well... Thanks :)

Still, it's not been mentioned in the manual  :blah:
The manual supplied or their latest from their website ?
There might be a later revision online so it might be a good idea to check.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MrFox on February 10, 2017, 10:19:43 pm
I finally bought a ds2072a after months of browsing among a bunch of imperfect choices. Siglent and instek were also very interesting for the price. I'm a bit worried the ds2000a series is getting old and they're probably coming out with a new model soon, but on the other hand I'm not buying a brand new chinese scope then wait years for bug fixes, and hope for a hack too. Life is full of compromises.

I guess it's basically my first real DSO, the first building block for my brand new home electronics lab. The last serious scope I used was over 20 years ago at school (we used mostly HP 54600A and a bunch of analog Tek),  and the only scope I owned for myself was a BK 1471B, which I used for my first job, some dotcom startup, then moved on to programming jobs. Now I'm slowly coming back into the hobby with a bit more time on my hands, and a budget for useful equipment.

Big thanks to everyone making the hack possible! :-+ It worked fine with mine, the only issue was that I had to use rigup 0.4 (0.4.2 didn't work).
Firmware: 00.03.04.02.01
Hardware : 2.3

Edit: Updated to 03.05, worked fine. There's a small bug with X/Y, if you scale down to 500uV and back up, it misses one step until you refresh it (either with run/stop, or touching any of the channel options which makes it refresh it correctly).

Also, I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere: DS1000 and DS2000 started bundling the new PVP2350 probes, while the RP3300A is discontinued. The new specs are interesting, it's 35MHz at 1x which should makes it really useful for measuring power supply noise. Only 10pf at 10x so it doesn't look compromised there either. However the compensation pot is on the probe, I wonder if that will cause issues, or if there might be a compromise at 10x in the design to allow the surprisingly high BW at 1x. I thought the high frequency probes always had to put it on the BNC end???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on April 24, 2017, 07:21:28 pm
The following procedure can be used to 'Sanitize Memory in the DS2000,A Series Oscilloscopes'.

Edit Added -> Re-Calibration Requirement: Sanitization of the instrument's memory will of course erase the stored Self-Calibration values.  Therefore it is important to perform Self-Calibration following Sanitization.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Blisk on April 25, 2017, 08:13:09 am
Is there still a good buy 2072A and upgrade or it is better to buy 2102A and upgrade???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: thm_w on April 25, 2017, 08:35:28 pm
Is there still a good buy 2072A and upgrade or it is better to buy 2102A and upgrade???

Buy the cheaper one, hardware is the same. Might consider some of the other brands as well (siglent).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ted572 on July 17, 2017, 11:04:43 pm
There is a Firmware update for the DS2000/A.  But go to both http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3) , and https://rigol.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2270646-firmware-update-procedures (https://rigol.desk.com/customer/en/portal/articles/2270646-firmware-update-procedures)  to decide which update to use.  Looks like they are a little confused, but at least we have a update.  I'm sure we want to install 00.03.05.03.03 from  http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://int.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)   Anyway, read the 'MSO_DS2000A Release Notes.txt' from each.  It seems that Rigol NA is in error here.   What are they thinking?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CustomEngineerer on July 17, 2017, 11:22:30 pm
Some more was posted about the firmwares several weeks ago in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-upgrade-for-rigol-ds2000-scopes/25/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-firmware-upgrade-for-rigol-ds2000-scopes/25/)

From what I can tell the GEL file within both is identical, the only thing that changed is it appears they forgot to add the change notes in the first 00.03.05.03.02 and 00.03.05.03.03 the only difference is the added change notes.

Edit:
sha1sum OfficialFirmware-Ver00.03.05.03.0*/DS2000*/DS2000Update.GEL
bb63ce1f25092839b29357b06eddc761db373f32  OfficialFirmware-Ver00.03.05.03.02_2017-07-04/DS2000(DSP)Update_00.03.05.03.03/DS2000Update.GEL
bb63ce1f25092839b29357b06eddc761db373f32  OfficialFirmware-Ver00.03.05.03.03_2017-07-11/DS2000(DSP)Update_00.03.05.03.03/DS2000Update.GEL

sha1sum OfficialFirmware-Ver00.03.05.03.0*/DS2000*/MSO_DS2000A*Release*
536323caba48157eb69e16e324333b2c4f8b7695  OfficialFirmware-Ver00.03.05.03.02_2017-07-04/DS2000(DSP)Update_00.03.05.03.03/MSO_DS2000A Release Notes.txt
4b1ffe16b9ab17e7e539fc6ce52a617b9fda6e26  OfficialFirmware-Ver00.03.05.03.03_2017-07-11/DS2000(DSP)Update_00.03.05.03.03/MSO_DS2000A Release Notes.txt
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on May 13, 2018, 04:24:01 pm
New firmware version available ("DS2000A firmware update_00.03.05.04.00") on Rigol Chinese site:

http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Installed fine on my non-A DS2000 without any obvious negative effects. 
Could be my imagination, but it seems to improve waveform display quality (sharper, less fuzz in traces).  Also removed slight zero offset in my channel one trace.

Release note included with download is encrypted but was successfully decrypted by EEVblog forum member ev84 (see attached).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CustomEngineerer on May 13, 2018, 07:16:47 pm
Could be my imagination, but it seems to improve waveform display quality (sharper, less fuzz in traces).

I would be curious if you noticed that before or after you read the release notes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on May 13, 2018, 07:30:10 pm
I believe I noticed it before reading the release notes but I'm still not sure whether it's actually different than before.

It may be that they modified the trace persistence control.  It seemed like minimum persistence used to include more than one scan, but now it has a more dynamic look, with a slight flicker in the trace when memory depth is high.

Have you done the firmware upgrade?  If so, do you see a difference?



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CustomEngineerer on May 13, 2018, 07:33:09 pm
I haven't yet. I downloaded the new firmware the other day, but haven't had time to mess with it (and probably won't for the foreseeable future).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on May 13, 2018, 11:30:22 pm
I’m always worried that a firmware update might break all the hacks and make it difficult or near impossible to redo them.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on August 07, 2018, 02:07:33 pm
I used a DS2202A at work and my thoughts were like why do the readouts have so small fonts??
It was SW 00.02.00 and HW 2.0. I think that the font size cannot be adjusted.
You might see some screenshots here. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-scopes-serial-decoding/msg1000285/#msg1000285 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-scopes-serial-decoding/msg1000285/#msg1000285)
OK it is from DS4000, but it looks the same.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bistopepmol on August 29, 2018, 07:12:53 am
 :scared:

Just did the firmware update and Bingo!!  all works fine as it should and nothing broken or lost,

was a DS2072A upgraded to DS2302A and all unlocks are the same.

Brilliant   :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pantelei4 on August 29, 2018, 05:43:06 pm
Just did the firmware update and Bingo!! 
What version of firmware?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: maxspb69 on November 09, 2018, 07:55:15 am
When I installed the latest firmware (00.03.05.04.00), I noticed that the "Analyse mode" (analyse captured waveforms) began to work very slowly! New firmware issue? Or did they change something there? There is no info about this in release note.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: HarlanLSU1 on December 08, 2018, 12:31:39 am
Okay the DS2000A UPGRADE UTILITY didn't working for me and tried replacing the rigup.exe with the latest rigup-0.4.2-x86_64-win and renamed it the same.  Also Send & Read does not generate the scrambled key on my DS2072A.  I have upgraded to firmware 3.05 SP4. Please save me the time of searching 113 pages and tell me what the latest procedure is that works.

EDIT: Found a website stating my exact problem (see last section) with a solution, but not appearing to be a good one just reading through it.
https://www.bambach.biz/projects/elektro/upgrade-rigol-ds2072a-to-ds2302a/ (https://www.bambach.biz/projects/elektro/upgrade-rigol-ds2072a-to-ds2302a/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: maxspb69 on January 30, 2019, 05:37:41 pm
new firmware on http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Circlotron on January 30, 2019, 10:48:51 pm
I’d like to know what issues are addressed before I use it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on February 01, 2019, 05:59:49 pm
new firmware on http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

Any problems with the new firmware?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Daruosha on February 01, 2019, 06:05:06 pm
new firmware on http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3 (http://www.rigol.com/Support/SoftDownload/3)

There's no change log, I'll wait for the official change log. Anyone tried it?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TurboTom on February 01, 2019, 07:07:08 pm
I installed it on my "pimped" MSO 2072-S and it works okay but since this 'scope isn't my everyday's instrument, and I didn't spend much time testing, I didn't notice a difference. The "usual flaws" that bugger me most (compared to the much improved DS1000Z firmware, namely "granular" derivative and the piss-poor FFT) haven't been touched...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on February 01, 2019, 08:27:25 pm
I just installed it on my DS2072.
 
The extended System Info shows update to Software Version 00.03.06.00.00 with date of Jan 17 2019 but hardware and FPGA version numbers did not change from last firmware version 00.03.05.04.00 (dated Mar 7 2018).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: egonotto on March 24, 2019, 07:16:49 am
Hello,

I don't know if somebody measure the rise and fall time of the trigger output of the DS2072.

Now I do a measure with the 1 GHz Agilent DSO6104L.

The rise time is about 600ps and the fall time is about 500ps.

I forgot:
The rise time of the DSO6104L itself is 350ps, so the true rise time of the trigger output is lower.
So the rise time is about 490ps and the fall time is about 360ps


Best regards
egonotto


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: artur0089 on May 23, 2019, 09:11:39 pm
The extended System Info shows update to Software Version 00.03.06.00.00 with date of Jan 17 2019 but hardware and FPGA version numbers did not change from last firmware version 00.03.05.04.00 (dated Mar 7 2018).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: erkko on July 04, 2019, 07:21:31 am
- When i turn it on most of the times show full screen noise and hangs, sometimes just hungs.

Not sure if its the same reason, but I had a period of same symptoms.

Additionally (after switching channels off and on again to get rid of noise) it often failed to see any signal in 1kHz testpoint. Even auto button failed in such situation. Crashed 90% of times when auto button was pressed. Ch2 off cleared ch1 trace also. Which returned many seconds later with noise again. Rarely also with clear trace...

Updates didnt change a thing. Clearing fram neither.

Until I noticed that it also forgot my measurements and switched on both channels on every reboot, although I clearly switched off ch2 every time...

That last one finally made me read some manual and what do you know - its a setting: Utility > System > Power on

I had set it at some point to "default". Perceiving it for some reason (without reading manual, just wandering around at menus) as that computer bios feature that restores power to the "last" state in case of power loss. So in that context, "last" sounded wrong.

Anyhow, now at "last", havent seen abnormal weird noise-like stuff on screen upon startup nor hangs for some time. Before it was always at most couple of restarts away.


PS. spoke too soon. Distorted noise-like stuff is back, hangs too. Seems to just occur less often, but it isnt gone.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: robca on May 18, 2020, 10:40:05 pm
I might be able to buy a used DS2072A. Currently asking $600 for it, but has not been sold for a long time, so might be open to a lower offer.

Considering the age, what would be a fair price for a DS2072A these days? I doubt I'll ever need more than 100MHz, so a DS1054Z (hacked to 100MHz) would work equally well and have 4 channels. But, then again, I rarely need more than 2 channels, and in cases where a lot of digital signals are needed, a logic probe works usually as well. So my main alternative would be a DS1054Z or an even cheaper used 2 channels Rigol

I see that once hacked, the DS2072A maintains the features. Is there a version of the firmware that does not allow hacking anymore? I'm sure it's in the thread, but I haven't had time to read thru the 113 pages yet, sorry
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on May 18, 2020, 11:52:54 pm
I might be able to buy a used DS2072A. Currently asking $600 for it, but has not been sold for a long time, so might be open to a lower offer.

Considering the age, what would be a fair price for a DS2072A these days? I doubt I'll ever need more than 100MHz, so a DS1054Z (hacked to 100MHz) would work equally well and have 4 channels. But, then again, I rarely need more than 2 channels, and in cases where a lot of digital signals are needed, a logic probe works usually as well. So my main alternative would be a DS1054Z or an even cheaper used 2 channels Rigol

I see that once hacked, the DS2072A maintains the features. Is there a version of the firmware that does not allow hacking anymore? I'm sure it's in the thread, but I haven't had time to read thru the 113 pages yet, sorry

I've had a few of the models in this range (1054Z, 1074Z, DS2072A, and MSO2072A).

Given what you describe as your options (used and new) and your requirements/interests I'd say go for a new 1054Z (get a slight discount from tequipment.net and a warranty).  It can't hurt to have the extra two channels (you might come up with some reasons to use more than 2).  When I bought the 2000 series (and I'm still happy with the one I have) I was slightly smitten by the big Nav knob but I haven't used it nearly as much as I expected.  It's still a great scope but it's hard to beat a new 1054Z in terms of price/features & performance.  If you really want to spend more the next step up is probably a Siglent 1104X-E.  Just depends on your budget and preferences.  You could start with the 1054Z and sell it in 2-3 years for maybe half or more of what you paid for it and then look at what's the latest and greatest at that time, or your first scope might be all you need if you don't get TEA.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: robca on May 19, 2020, 12:37:08 am
I've had a few of the models in this range (1054Z, 1074Z, DS2072A, and MSO2072A).

Given what you describe as your options (used and new) and your requirements/interests I'd say go for a new 1054Z (get a slight discount from tequipment.net and a warranty).  It can't hurt to have the extra two channels (you might come up with some reasons to use more than 2).  When I bought the 2000 series (and I'm still happy with the one I have) I was slightly smitten by the big Nav knob but I haven't used it nearly as much as I expected.  It's still a great scope but it's hard to beat a new 1054Z in terms of price/features & performance.  If you really want to spend more the next step up is probably a Siglent 1104X-E.  Just depends on your budget and preferences.  You could start with the 1054Z and sell it in 2-3 years for maybe half or more of what you paid for it and then look at what's the latest and greatest at that time, or your first scope might be all you need if you don't get TEA.
Thanks!

I currently have a decent dual trace analog 100MHz scope, which works well for pretty much everything I need, but it's huge and takes up way too much space. That and a logic probe, and I can do pretty much everything.

The main reason to get a DSO is the small footprint. And less so some of the memory features. But it's hard to justify ~$350 for just a smaller footprint (and, yes, i was aware of the eevblog discount, but thanks for mentioning it)

That DS2072A used was tempting because I might be able to get it relatively cheap for the type of instrument and with the 300MHz bandwidth would at least offer a real upgrade over my analog one, in case I need more bandwidth in the future. What price would you consider a DS2072A to be a "too good to turn down"? Would paying close to a DS1054Z be a good price?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on May 19, 2020, 01:53:09 am
It's a thinker.  If I needed to replace my existing MSO2072A and I had to choose between a used 300 MHz DSO272A and a 1054Z for the same price, I guess I'd go with the 300 MHz DSO2072A.  Really depends on how much I thought I was going to use/need want the extra bandwidth.  It's kinda on the edge because as much as the bandwidth is attractive so are the four channels - especially for digital (SPI in particular) - although a lot of folks are very happy with a $10-15 eBay logic analyzer that runs Sikgrok PulseView. The LA won't let you see the analog and digital signals at the same tjme on the same screen, but that might not be important (depends on what you will be doing), and you can add the LA no matter what scope you go with.

If I couldn't see some fairly specific use for the extra bandwidth then somewhere around a $50-$100 lower price plus new, plus a warranty I'd probably go for the 1054Z.  Might depend on how pristine the 2072A is, does it come with the probes, or are their some issues known or TBD on the used scope. 

I like Rigol a lot but given what I hear you saying and asking about, I think you might be a candidate for a Siglent 1104X-E with a discount from Saelig.  I'm pretty sure if I was buying now in this general range I'd go for the 1104X-E but it really comes down to how bad you want the bandwidth and in what package you want to get the bandwidth.  Either way, you are going to enjoy a smaller footprint and the ability to digitally capture and manage signals.  (It's great that you have the analog scope - you will never wonder again what you might be missing with ether analog or digital.  Plus, it's nice having two of anything as a backup and to check the sanity of your measurements once in awhile when you have a head scratcher.)

If you think this might be your last scope, then maybe the maximum bandwidth you can get is the driver.  If you want to experience digital and see what you learn and need for your next scope, I'd go for the 1054Z or 1104X-E.  It's possible that with any of the scopes you are considering plus your analog scope you will be all set.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Gandalf_Sr on May 19, 2020, 12:45:06 pm
Plus 1 for the DS1054Z route; you can use Riglol to make it into a DS1104Z (it says so on the System Info) and real world -3dB bandwidth is in the 130 - 150 MHz area after applying the upgrade.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dan_bates on June 19, 2020, 01:54:23 pm
Hi, I've been enjoying reading the threads here.

what would it mean if my DS2072 refuses to upgrade firmware?
it's at 00.01.00.00.03
hardware 1.0.1

In diagnostic mode i wait a moment with SINGLE illuminated, stick in the stick, and all the lights come up, no blinky CH1.
tried all these different .GEL files.

I'm following the usual guide as far as I know.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

connected it to ultrasigma last week. not cynical to think that'd be the cause is it?!

Edit: I found this regarding formatting the USB stick correctly:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-not-recognising-usb-flash-drives/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-not-recognising-usb-flash-drives/)
I used Rufus.

UPDATED.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: artur0089 on June 19, 2020, 04:21:48 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeb9eCfXUE&list=PL2DkljQye2niCmAp6bwIwSfzKBb_Dy2eu&index=38 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeb9eCfXUE&list=PL2DkljQye2niCmAp6bwIwSfzKBb_Dy2eu&index=38)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kimouser6471 on July 29, 2022, 09:50:23 am
Purchased a second-hand DS2072, firmware 3.3.sp2, there is a strange error message when pressing the AUTO button ().
 OPTION is empty, update to FW3.6, the problem is still the same,
start to restore firmware 3.5 3.4 3.3 3.0 2.1 1.03 can not solve it.
FW 0.1.0.5 OPTION shows that all trial expired, the function of AUTO button is restored.
Directly update FW3.6 +OPTION DSHH function is fully open and the AUTO button functions normally.
Unexplainable phenomenon
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tv84 on July 29, 2022, 11:02:19 am
Maybe it's a consequence of Rigol's licensing scheme being altered throughout the life of the FW...

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JDubU on July 29, 2022, 01:15:18 pm
Have you tried doing the special firmware update procedure described at the end of this post?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: artur0089 on May 01, 2023, 08:49:00 pm
Oscilloscope hacked.
Is it possible to downgrade the firmware version?
"ON+Help" - does not allow you to update the firmware, except for the latest version.