REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol

[marmad]

Video comparison of the Rigol DS2000 and the new Siglent SDS2000 series here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-siglent-sds2304-a-comparison-of-features-with-rigol-ds2000-series/

[Teneyes]

Video comparison of the Rigol DS2000 and the new Siglent SDS2000 series here:

It would be interested to see if the fuzzy traces with 2 channel at fast scan rates shows on the Siglent like the latest DS2000 FW. With and without SinX/X?.
On the Rigol it seems to me to be related to SinX/X and intensity levels. That have changed on latest Rigol firmware releases.

[marmad]

It would be interested to see if the fuzzy traces with 2 channel at fast scan rates shows on the Siglent like the latest DS2000 FW. With and without SinX/X?.
On the Rigol it seems to me to be related to SinX/X and intensity levels. That have changed on latest Rigol firmware releases.

No problem, Teneyes. I have the Siglent for a couple of more days, so I can post some images. Can you please tell me exactly what you want to see; e.g. test signal, timebase, etc.?

[Teneyes]

A while back , WIM13 noted that the traces are a bit more fuzzy when 2 channels were on after the last few FW updates.  This is with FW 00.03.00.01.03

1 , 2   Bellow I show Chan 1 Only in Vectors and Dots with 70 MHz sinewave input

3 , 4   I then show both Channels 1 & 2 on, in dots and Vectors

5       Then I show a close up of the input and the noise appears to be some sort of sine wave on the traces
6        50msec Persistence

Could this be SinX/X extrapolation??
It would nice to be able to turn off SinX/X .

or is a change in the Intensity levels with no change in the min. persistence calculation?

[Teneyes]

Fuzzy Traces
here I show fuzzy traces at Persistence settings of   Min,  50ms,  100ms  , 200ms. 500ms
It looks like Min. Presistence is set to an incorrect value!!!
and is about 200ms

[Teneyes]

There also looks like an Error on the other end of the Persistence settings, It looks like there are different processing for these two settings
Below I show settings of 20 seconds and Infinite Persistence

[marmad]

Could this be SinX/X extrapolation??
It would nice to be able to turn off SinX/X .

I can't replicate this particular error on my Rigol, so I'm not sure what is causing it.

Fuzzy Traces

The Siglent changes the grading a bit when when turning on more channels, but not nearly as much as the Rigol. In fact, the intensity grading on the Siglent is really quite beautiful - much better, in general, than the Rigol. I'm going to make an extra short video just about the intensity grading and post it in the next couple of days.

It looks like Min. Presistence is set to an incorrect value!!!
and is about 200ms

Min. persistence is zero persistence - just intensity grading. And even though both intensity grading and persistence produce the same visual effect of shades of color, they are calculated and graded differently (although I don't know exactly how Rigol is doing it).

[Teneyes]

Could this be SinX/X extrapolation??
It would nice to be able to turn off SinX/X .

I can't replicate this particular error on my Rigol, so I'm not sure what is causing it.

to Clarify , the setup is :
    FW 00.03.00.01.03
    300MHz options, all Options installed??
    mostly observed on 5nsec/div
    70 MHz input
    2 channels On
    Memory Depth = 28MPts, , AUto sets to 700 Pts and Blurs  traces
    Single scan to show ripple  (less ripples with only 1 chan on)

DIsplays with DOts and Vectors at Infinite Persiostence

[marmad]

    70 MHz input

It has to be a 70MHz input @5ns/div? That seems like a pretty specific bug 

[Teneyes]

It has to be a 70MHz input @5ns/div? That seems like a pretty specific bug 

Well   , It shows on the peaks of 30-120 Mhz, and more at 5ns/div.
I say it is a quirk of the SinX/X implementation

I un-installed all Options an only added 56MPts back

Here are Gifs. , of Vectors and Dots Recording  with 50MHz input ON FW00.03
Note how the dots are follow on the sin curve but in VECTORS there is a rolling ripple of 1 GHz !!   

The next Post will be on FW 00.01

[Teneyes]

Here are Gifs. , of Vectors and Dots Recording  with 50MHz input ON FW00.01
Note how the dots are follow on the sin curve but in VECTORS there is less ripple

[marmad]

Note how the dots are follow on the sin curve but in VECTORS ther is a rolling ripple of 1 GHz !!

OK, I see it now. No, I don't see any evidence of this happening on the Siglent.

[ted572]

The new Rigol 2014 DS2000 Performance Verification Guide:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf

[miguelvp]

The new Rigol 2014 DS2000 Performance Verification Guide:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf

Thank you!
Now where do I get $28K to get a Fluke 9500B
Kidding I know you can rent them but it probably cost as much as my Rigol to rent it for one day.

[marmad]

The new Rigol 2014 DS2000 Performance Verification Guide:
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-04ce/1/-/-/-/-/DS2000%20Performance%20Verification%20Guide.pdf

Thanks, Ted. Regardless of the 2014 date on the cover, it seems slightly dated (there's a 2012 copyright inside), although I imagine the verification routines are (mostly) still valid. It keeps referring to the model as DS2000 (the DS2000 exists no longer; there is now only the DS2000A) and it doesn't mention the 300MHz BW DS2302A.

[ted572]

Thanks, Ted. Regardless of the 2014 date on the cover, it seems slightly dated (there's a 2012 copyright inside), although I imagine the verification routines are (mostly) still valid. It keeps referring to the model as DS2000 (the DS2000 exists no longer; there is now only the DS2000A) and it doesn't mention the 300MHz BW DS2302A.
[/quote]

Hi marmad:

Yes it is for the DS2000 (non A) that we have.  They are still working on the newer DS2000A document.

[Circlotron]

My DS2072, did a single shot trace this morning at 2 sec/div. Waited till it said "WAIT" (confusing, means scope is waiting for trigger, not for you to wait...) then switched my cct on and this caused a trigger because it said "TRG" or suchlike, can't remember now, then eventually after maybe 20 seconds or so it said "STOP" in red. After about five minutes there was still nothing displaying on the screen so I moved the time/div kob back and forth one click and BYU there was my trace! Interestingly, it didn't start right on the trigger point but about 2.5mm to the right.

This display not showing up immediately only seems to happen at slower sweep speeds; high speed ones appear as soon as the scan is finished. Not sure what the borderline between high and low speed is yet though. Just that at 2 sec/div it acted up. Any ideas?

[Teneyes]

Not sure what the borderline between high and low speed is yet though. Just that at 2 sec/div it acted up. Any ideas?
[/quote] You notice the delay when at about 2 seconds, the DS2000 collects data point before the trigger event.  the trace is not displayed until the trigger occurs, so I put the trigger point on the left side of the display for slow scan rates.  Try putting the trigger point on the Right and time the delay from the "RUN" indication until the trace is displayed at 500ms/div. 

[marmad]

My DS2072, did a single shot trace this morning at 2 sec/div. Waited till it said "WAIT" (confusing, means scope is waiting for trigger, not for you to wait...) then switched my cct on and this caused a trigger because it said "TRG" or suchlike, can't remember now, then eventually after maybe 20 seconds or so it said "STOP" in red. After about five minutes there was still nothing displaying on the screen so I moved the time/div kob back and forth one click and BYU there was my trace! Interestingly, it didn't start right on the trigger point but about 2.5mm to the right.

This display not showing up immediately only seems to happen at slower sweep speeds; high speed ones appear as soon as the scan is finished. Not sure what the borderline between high and low speed is yet though. Just that at 2 sec/div it acted up. Any ideas?

The length of time it takes to be ready for a trigger (WAIT) and then display the acquisition is a function of the time base setting * 14 -OR- memory depth * sample speed, whichever is longer. The trigger position affects the division of that length of time. Did you ever wonder what that display graphic at the top center of the screen was for?

Examine the following 5 images - all made at 1s/div. Pay attention to memory depth, the graphic at the top center of screen, and the WAIT/DISPLAY times which I have scribbled in:
1) 14k sample size and center trigger position.
2) 14M sample size and center trigger position.
3) 14M sample size and left trigger position.
2) 56M sample size and center trigger position.
3) 56M sample size and left trigger position.

EDIT: BTW, posting USB screen captures when you have problems would help us point out what mistake you're making.

[Teneyes]

BTW, posting USB screen captures when you have problems would help us point out what mistake you're making.

@Circlotron
  Yes, Screen displays are helpfull ,and I like using Marmad's RUU software;
as it is fast and can create GIFs to show recorded displays, with Menu on side to show settings

[Circlotron]

Okay, the image names should tell the story.

[marmad]

Okay, the image names should tell the story.

Ahh... High Res mode. Do you realize that when you use High Res mode at 2s/div (and 14k mem.depth), the bandwidth of your scope is 14Hz? Just to emphasize: the bandwidth of your DSO using High Res mode at 2s/div and 14k mem.depth is not 70MHz - and not even 50Hz (500Sa/10) -- it's 13.75 Hertz. That hardly seems usable for most things - and might cause the DSO to act strangely, since that mode is not really designed to be used at such slow time bases (High Res is basically useful from 500ns/div to about 10ms/div).

High Res mode is sample averaging, so when using it at any time base slower than 5us/div, you're going to want to have your memory depth set to 14M or AUTO for the best results - but even using 14M @ 2s/div, your BW is still only going to be 21.5Hz.

Anyway, I tested your setup (High Res mode @ 2s/div w/14k) but it works fine on my DS2000 - the trace appears on the display as soon as it's triggered just like it's supposed to. Perhaps it has to do with my test signal, but since you're running an older version of the firmware (I'm using v.3 FW), it might also be related to that too.

[Circlotron]

Anyway, I tested your setup (High Res mode @ 2s/div w/14k) but it works fine on my DS2000 - the trace appears on the display as soon as it's triggered just like it's supposed to. Perhaps it has to do with my test signal, but since you're running an older version of the firmware (I'm using v.3 FW), it might also be related to that too.

I forget my firmware version but I've had the scope exactly 12 months this week. Only had Riglol hack entered via the menu.
Did another test and in Hi Res mode is displays immediately on trigger down to IIRC 100mS/div. Slower than that and you can wait forever and still nothing. If you want it to appear you can either blip the time/div or switch from Hi Res to Normal and there it is. Then back to Hi Res if you want. In Normal mode it does display immediately on trigger at 2 sec/div. Didn't try any slower. Only recently realised that a yucky, thick, furry trace can be Hi Res'd after the event so despite perhaps being a bug, I can live with it. Just  trigger and record, then Hi Res. 

[marmad]

I forget my firmware version but I've had the scope exactly 12 months this week. Only had Riglol hack entered via the menu.

You're using an older version of the firmware - I can tell by the order of items in your Acquire menu: it has changed around in the latest firmware (as you can see in the images in my previous post).

Did another test and in Hi Res mode is displays immediately on trigger down to IIRC 100mS/div. Slower than that and you can wait forever and still nothing

As already mentioned, High Res is, at best, marginally useful at those time bases, causing the BW of the DSO to be reduced to below 250 Hertz. Best case bandwidths (14M mem.depth) using High Res at 200ms/div and below are:
200ms/div = 215Hz
500ms/div = 86Hz
1s/div = 43Hz
2s/div = 21.5Hz
5s/div = 8.6Hz
10s/div = 4.3Hz
20s/div = 2.1Hz

[alank2]

Is the FW#00.03.00.01.03 stable and solid?  Better than the 00.02.01.00.03?  Any tricks to upgrading?  I've got two non-A DS2072's.