Author Topic: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?  (Read 17794 times)

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Offline stj

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2018, 04:07:54 am »
i dont think option-5 is compatable with Fluke company policy!  :rant:
 
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Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2018, 05:59:58 am »
5. Keep the price REAL

Could you elaborate on this point, I would really like to know what the difference between today's price for a 87 is compared to this   'keep it real' price for the 87. Simple economics suggested the price point for the 87 is about right (he target market is willing to pay this price for the meter, it's feature set matched to that segments actual requirements, it's reputation, and the companies reputation). Fluke are not a not-for-profit charity, it's also not priced or targeted towards the hobbits market (thankfully).

I also find it interesting how well paid people are who's only expense to work is getting there ass into a car and driving to/from work and then criticize the pricing a company charges for it's products. Why don't you buy the facilities to develop a product or perform a service and see what it really cost to stay in business. Profit permits investment and helps offset development cost especially for products that may have lower demand but are still important to the portfolio.

If you can't afford an 87, justify the cost of an 87, or need the capabilities of the 87 go buy a different meter. Just stop the whining.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2018, 10:42:14 am »
I understand your stance, and I'm well versed in 'how business works to stay in business' too,
and a Fluke user and plugger from the 1990s.

"5. Keep the price REAL"
i.e. it may not be good business practice to overprice a long accepted model from $999 to $1666 just because of a small outlay of $100? to add a 5 cents? Low Z resistor and associated soft/hard links,
firmware update for startup option selections, logo, packaging etc whilst keeping the same production tooling

It might stifle the product if charging way too much and give competing products the edge to corner that target market,
who may supply more features and higher CAT and   [[ D R O P ]]   and IPxxx Ratings to seal the deal, and different colored holsters... including amber yellow   ;D

As it is Keysight are no slouches at the game, nor is Brymen and others


FWIW Company reputations, before the internet, used to build up gradually and stay that way for decades

Now with the internet and mobile communications, any company can get to the top and hit rock bottom in no time if their product and support aren't that great anymore

or believe if they charge too much, the cashed up snob value addict bunnies will still come with bags of cash, or corporates  will still order boxes of them


5. Keep the price REAL = $1250?

with all the extra goodies thrown in like good leads/probes (not the generic semi-stiffies) insulated croc clips, the magnet hanging thingie, hard case, spare fuses
and full user instruction manual in paperback form with included applications, specs, limitations, DO NOTS, and cautions



AND screw metal inserts, no more ongoing inferior plastic post CAT defeating   :scared: FIASCOS, please... 

« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:50:26 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline lem_ix

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2018, 10:58:00 am »
Fluke seem to be more interested in thermal cameras then a new DMM. And even if they were it'd be an industrial one again. EU prices are somewhat absurd as well. You can get an entry level rigol or siglent bench dmm + a hand held for about the same money as 87V ~600 eur.
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #104 on: January 12, 2018, 11:09:58 am »
Not sure Fluke has any real competition in their main segment.
They have good level of local support in almost any country (representation and calibration) and superior traceability. Fact that you get more bang for the buck from Brymen or someone else doesn't mean too much to big players procuring equipment.

 

Online blueskull

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2018, 11:12:36 am »
Fluke seem to be more interested in thermal cameras then a new DMM. And even if they were it'd be an industrial one again. EU prices are somewhat absurd as well. You can get an entry level rigol or siglent bench dmm + a hand held for about the same money as 87V ~600 eur.

There are a lot of sellers from China that will sell you a genuine F87VC if you pay the correct price, which is similar to US price (~$420). However, most Chinese sellers will declare fake CN22, so you don't pay that much tax for getting it into your country. Since they do that automatically without asking you, you have plausible deniability even if the customs discover it.
SIGSEGV is inevitable if you try to talk more than you know. If I say gibberish, keep in mind that my license plate is SIGSEGV.
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #106 on: January 12, 2018, 11:18:42 am »
Fluke seem to be more interested in thermal cameras then a new DMM. And even if they were it'd be an industrial one again. EU prices are somewhat absurd as well. You can get an entry level rigol or siglent bench dmm + a hand held for about the same money as 87V ~600 eur.

There are a lot of sellers from China that will sell you a genuine F87VC if you pay the correct price, which is similar to US price (~$420). However, most Chinese sellers will declare fake CN22, so you don't pay that much tax for getting it into your country. Since they do that automatically without asking you, you have plausible deniability even if the customs discover it.
Not sure any customs pay attention to the declared price of goods coming from China, usually they'll google it if it looks expensive.
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #107 on: January 12, 2018, 11:23:06 am »
Not sure any customs pay attention to the declared price of goods coming from China, usually they'll google it if it looks expensive.

Fluke 87VC package is printed in Chinese, and it looks nothing different than a cheap Chinese meter on the box. Unless the custom officer is also an EE and knows Fluke, otherwise it's likely they won't bother.
F87VC does have international warranty (you need to ask the seller to print a formal invoice for you with your name on it), and is internally identical to F87 international version.

Even if you pay tax honestly, it's still can be cheaper to import than buy locally, especially for high tax, high welfare countries like EU or Australia.
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Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #108 on: January 12, 2018, 11:33:16 am »
Not sure any customs pay attention to the declared price of goods coming from China, usually they'll google it if it looks expensive.

Fluke 87VC package is printed in Chinese, and it looks nothing different than a cheap Chinese meter on the box. Unless the custom officer is also an EE and knows Fluke, otherwise it's likely they won't bother.
F87VC does have international warranty (you need to ask the seller to print a formal invoice for you with your name on it), and is internally identical to F87 international version.

Even if you pay tax honestly, it's still can be cheaper to import than buy locally, especially for high tax, high welfare countries like EU or Australia.
Nope, Chinese print won't stop them for opening the box and seeing Fluke 87V(C) on the meter and then google and see the EU (or US) listed prices and tax you on that value.
Here it would mean 30% (VAT 20% + 10% c.tariff) and it would end up the same as bought locally.
 

Offline lem_ix

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2018, 12:22:37 pm »
Not sure Fluke has any real competition in their main segment.
They have good level of local support in almost any country (representation and calibration) and superior traceability. Fact that you get more bang for the buck from Brymen or someone else doesn't mean too much to big players procuring equipment.

Here and probably in similar countries big players seem more prudent with their money. For example Sanwa here seems to be the meter of choice probably because of senior engineer recommendation. Then again electronics engineers aren't really Fluke's main market.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #110 on: January 13, 2018, 08:13:14 am »
5. Keep the price REAL = $1250?

with all the extra goodies thrown in like good leads/probes (not the generic semi-stiffies) insulated croc clips, the magnet hanging thingie, hard case, spare fuses
and full user instruction manual in paperback form with included applications, specs, limitations, DO NOTS, and cautions


AND screw metal inserts, no more ongoing inferior plastic post CAT defeating   :scared: FIASCOS, please...

I do not disagree with your point on providing additional value, Fluke could and should provide additional value. The Magnetic Strap to me should have been in the box for example. The lack of metal threaded inserts was a problem on the older meters which needed to be opened for battery replacement and calibration. It's not an issue now.

My point was simply that a company will price it's products based on what the market segment is willing to pay. I don't have a problem with this because I would do the same. Like yourself, when I needed a meter I could depend on the Fluke was the choice, it's what our supplies had, and I paid the asking price. Today, there's others out there but Fluke still has the reputation and the long time user base.

The hobbyists market is largely a race to the bottom and is seems there's plenty of manufactures in that market, but hobbyists have an expectation that all manufactures should cater to their price points. Some have chosen not to however.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #111 on: January 13, 2018, 10:32:18 am »
Maybe you should take a look at what's known as the "Danaher Business System". It's a bit notorious and certainly doesn't have the customer or product well-being in mind. They'll squeeze Fluke for all it's worth, eroding the brand if they have to. You see reputation cash grabs everywhere and it's not pretty, but people catch on sooner or later.
 
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Online blueskull

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #112 on: January 13, 2018, 06:18:00 pm »
The hobbyists market is largely a race to the bottom and is seems there's plenty of manufactures in that market, but hobbyists have an expectation that all manufactures should cater to their price points. Some have chosen not to however.

For the same price of F87V, you can get a Keysight meter with a lot of bells and whistles as well as some fairly advanced features that only exist in F289, plus a luxury set of test leads (at least my U1461A came with a luxury set of them, don't know what's included with $400 range meters).

You do have to pay some price for the better bang per buck, that's firmware bugs. My U1461A is a death trap, and its analog mux sometimes gets configured improperly so that the meter reads 0V or a random small floating voltage when its test leads are actually seeing many hundreds of volts*.
I can see that being a huge problem for electrical uses, but for electronics uses where for most of the time you are probing a <100V circuit, this is not a big problem -- if I see some stupid readings, I know the analog mux is fucked up again and I just need to reboot the meter. When I do touch anywhere mains connected, I have an F289 for that.
But that being said, the U1461A is a one of its kind meter. You don't see too many meters that comes with a programmable 1.1kV power supply built in and a nA resolution current detector. The insulation DMM is very handy for my SMPS testing, as an insulation sanity check before I hook it up to mains. The same functionality (particularly, 1V resolution programmable test voltage) on a better insulation meter brand, such as Megger, will cost many times the price I paid for my U1461A. For the money, I'm quite happy.

If you read the GW121 bugs thread, you will see the same trend -- more features on a cheaper meter=more bugs. Fluke spent tons of money to make sure their firmware will not do stupid thing like not reading a high voltage, which can cause death. But on the other hand, you have to pay for the premium, and live with reduced functionality. If I'm only looking for a benchtop low voltage meter, I will still consider functionality over safety.

*: This has also happened to previous U12xx meters, and it gets worse in my U1461A. It occasionally reports blown fuse in current fuse, which actually the fuse is fine and I just need to reboot the meter. It also shows zero reading in current mode occasionally, in addition to voltage mode, and similarly, OL in Ohms range and open in diode/continuity/capacitance mode. The difference is U1461A still hasn't received a firmware fix on this issue, and the last firmware update dates back to 2015.
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Offline jaja_622

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2018, 12:27:20 pm »
The hobbyists market is largely a race to the bottom and is seems there's plenty of manufactures in that market, but hobbyists have an expectation that all manufactures should cater to their price points. Some have chosen not to however.

For the same price of F87V, you can get a Keysight meter with a lot of bells and whistles as well as some fairly advanced features that only exist in F289, plus a luxury set of test leads (at least my U1461A came with a luxury set of them, don't know what's included with $400 range meters).

You do have to pay some price for the better bang per buck, that's firmware bugs. My U1461A is a death trap, and its analog mux sometimes gets configured improperly so that the meter reads 0V or a random small floating voltage when its test leads are actually seeing many hundreds of volts*.
I can see that being a huge problem for electrical uses, but for electronics uses where for most of the time you are probing a <100V circuit, this is not a big problem -- if I see some stupid readings, I know the analog mux is fucked up again and I just need to reboot the meter. When I do touch anywhere mains connected, I have an F289 for that.
But that being said, the U1461A is a one of its kind meter. You don't see too many meters that comes with a programmable 1.1kV power supply built in and a nA resolution current detector. The insulation DMM is very handy for my SMPS testing, as an insulation sanity check before I hook it up to mains. The same functionality (particularly, 1V resolution programmable test voltage) on a better insulation meter brand, such as Megger, will cost many times the price I paid for my U1461A. For the money, I'm quite happy.

If you read the GW121 bugs thread, you will see the same trend -- more features on a cheaper meter=more bugs. Fluke spent tons of money to make sure their firmware will not do stupid thing like not reading a high voltage, which can cause death. But on the other hand, you have to pay for the premium, and live with reduced functionality. If I'm only looking for a benchtop low voltage meter, I will still consider functionality over safety.

*: This has also happened to previous U12xx meters, and it gets worse in my U1461A. It occasionally reports blown fuse in current fuse, which actually the fuse is fine and I just need to reboot the meter. It also shows zero reading in current mode occasionally, in addition to voltage mode, and similarly, OL in Ohms range and open in diode/continuity/capacitance mode. The difference is U1461A still hasn't received a firmware fix on this issue, and the last firmware update dates back to 2015.
Having those kinds of error when working with mains voltage can get you killed, while I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices, in reality the assurance that you won't have those kind of errors is what you are paying for... and if you ask me, 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2018, 12:46:17 pm »
Having those kinds of error when working with mains voltage can get you killed, while I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices, in reality the assurance that you won't have those kind of errors is what you are paying for... and if you ask me, 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

That's why I specifically said for electronics uses. I will not use this POS (in terms of safety and measurement confidence) on mains.
I have an F289, and I plan to get an F101 to throw in my tool bag.
Similarly, though I backed Dave's GW121, I'm not using it on mains until the initial bugs are ironed out.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #115 on: January 16, 2018, 07:25:20 pm »
I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices ... 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

Did you know that Fluke makes other meters apart from the 87V?

With $100 to spend I can choose between half a dozen Fluke multimeters.

Even with only $50 budget I can still get a super-safe Fluke, with delivery!  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 07:29:19 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline jaja_622

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2018, 11:58:45 pm »
I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices ... 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

Did you know that Fluke makes other meters apart from the 87V?

With $100 to spend I can choose between half a dozen Fluke multimeters.

Even with only $50 budget I can still get a super-safe Fluke, with delivery!  :popcorn:
Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.
Of course you can get a cheaper DMM, but in that case it will probably have less features than a similar priced option from other brand also.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #117 on: January 17, 2018, 12:23:48 am »
Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.

On a checkbox-feature list, maybe.

But ... a month ago who would have suspected the reason that Fluke carefully takes all the PCB vias away from the switch contacts on their PCBs?

Let's compare a typical multimeter (vias in the tracks) with a Fluke 17B+ (where all the vias are moved off to the side).  :popcorn:


Fluke obviously does that for a reason but can you guess why?  :popcorn:

It appears that those vias cause friction, create resistance in the switch contact and shorten the life of the meter. That picture shows the 17B+ after the switch has been turned 50,000 times (the ZT101 above is brand new).

Compare it to the ZT101 after 50,000 turns:


Question: Which of those two meters is overpriced?

(and what other tricks does Fluke know when it comes to building reliable multimeters)

Flukes also have those precision laser trimmed resistors in them for stability and long life, etc. Those things are expensive, you won't find them in cheapo meters.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 12:49:51 am by Fungus »
 
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Online HKJ

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2018, 12:53:36 am »
Question: Which of those two meters is overpriced?

When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2018, 01:36:22 am »
When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.

Yes, Brymen is really the only other brand that holds up well under scrutiny.



 

Offline LoFi

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2018, 01:39:24 am »
Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.

On a checkbox-feature list, maybe.

But ... a month ago who would have suspected the reason that Fluke carefully takes all the PCB vias away from the switch contacts on their PCBs?

Let's compare a typical multimeter (vias in the tracks) with a Fluke 17B+ (where all the vias are moved off to the side). 
...
It appears that those vias cause friction, create resistance in the switch contact and shorten the life of the meter. That picture shows the 17B+ after the switch has been turned 50,000 times (the ZT101 above is brand new).

Compare it to the ZT101 after 50,000 turns:
...

Interesting.  I had not seen these photos before.  Does the ZT101 still function correctly?... seems hard to imagine with switch contacts degraded that much.  I have been impressed with the function and accuracy of the little cheapo AN8002/AN8008 (which I believe are in the same family as the ZT101).  But such photos show pretty conclusively that these can only be considered for light use. Not surprising for a $20 meter, but still helpful to see the photographic evidence.  It would be interesting to see what those ZT101 contacts look like after just 10K or 20K turns.   It's reassuring to see that Fluke builds this kind of quality into even their least expensive meters (17b+).  Thanks for posting this...

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2018, 01:47:50 am »
Interesting.  I had not seen these photos before.

They're screenshots I just made from videos over in the robustness thread.



Does the ZT101 still function correctly?
No.

It would be interesting to see what those ZT101 contacts look like after just 10K or 20K turns.

There's no photos of the insides but there's measurements of the contact resistance as it progresses. The Fluke stays close to zero for the entire test, the ZT101/AN8008 doesn't. See video.

It's reassuring to see that Fluke builds this kind of quality into even their least expensive meters (17b+).  Thanks for posting this...

A month ago I was in the "Fluke17B+ is overpriced" camp.

Now I'm not so sure, it's starting to look like a nice little meter - definitely the same DNA as the 87V.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 03:53:09 am by Fungus »
 

Offline LoFi

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #122 on: January 17, 2018, 02:07:30 am »

A month ago I was in the "Fluke17B+" is overpriced camp.

Now I'm not so sure, it's starting to look like a nice little meter - definitely the same DNA as the 87V.

Yes. I recently bought a 17b+ as a 2nd good meter to back up an 87v.  I've been impressed with the quality and value-for-price.  It's not as quick as the 87v, or quite as accurate, but is still a very nice meter and feels very solid and fluke-like.  The switch-contact test photos seem to support that...
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Offline zaoka

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #123 on: January 17, 2018, 01:00:32 pm »
When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.

Yes, Brymen is really the only other brand that holds up well under scrutiny.

Look Hioki meters, that brand is one of the best.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #124 on: January 20, 2018, 02:05:18 pm »
The 'entry level' Fluke fared better than the 24/7 sweatshop produced cheapo clay pigeon meters,

but hey, the Fluke is 10 times the price, so you would expect some value for money, especially selector switch longevity


Perhaps if the wheel choc cheapo meters were opened up ocassionally for a selector switch dust off a reflow and light lube, they would last a LOT longer,

assuming the owner cares and hasn't got a 'just bin it' policy in place   :-X
 
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