Author Topic: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?  (Read 18990 times)

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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2018, 02:22:50 am »
I recently worked with an 87, and an 87V and notices the bargraph is much faster on the 87 than the 87V.
When adjusting controllers for stability the 87 wins.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2018, 03:17:41 am »
I recently worked with an 87, and an 87V and notices the bargraph is much faster on the 87 than the 87V.
When adjusting controllers for stability the 87 wins.

The 87V updates 40x per second, that's pretty fast.  :-//

Maybe it's affected by hires mode or something, are you sure they're equivalent?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2018, 03:21:40 am »
The obvious improvements to be made to the 87V would be changing the batteries to AA or AAA. Of course, having the fuses accessible without taking it apart would be an upgrade too. The meter is simple and quick in every day use, but having to tear the entire device down to get to a FRU is a pain. It's a pain in the actual field too, as I can't see anyone doing it on a windy platform or anything. Obviously, if you insist on doing it that way, you'll need to use metal inserts, which are currently missing too.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2018, 03:22:50 am »
The 87V updates 40x per second, that's pretty fast.  :-//

Maybe it's affected by hires mode or something, are you sure they're equivalent?
The numbers on paper aren't always reflected by the actual behaviour. It might very well update 40 seconds a minute, but if the bar blurs out at that speed leaving you guessing, it might not be as effective as it seems.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2018, 03:33:10 am »
The numbers on paper aren't always reflected by the actual behaviour. It might very well update 40 seconds a minute, but if the bar blurs out at that speed leaving you guessing, it might not be as effective as it seems.

Maybe the difference is in the LCD.

The obvious improvements to be made to the 87V would be changing the batteries to AA or AAA.

AA would make it much bigger, AAA wouldn't last as long if they need to be boosted to 9V internally.

Edit: Change from AAA to AA.

Of course, having the fuses accessible without taking it apart would be an upgrade too.  I can't see anyone doing it on a windy platform or anything.

Anybody who's blowing Fluke 87V fuses on a windy platform should probably be carrying a current clamp accessory instead of a spare set of fuses.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 05:12:54 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2018, 04:56:55 am »
Maybe the difference is in the LCD.

AAA would make it much bigger, AAA wouldn't last as long if they need to be boosted to 9V internally.

Anybody who's blowing Fluke 87V fuses on a windy platform should probably be carrying a current clamp accessory instead of a spare set of fuses.
Why would going with AAA make it much larger? Even without changing the current design much, you could already accommodate 2 x AAA. A new model would involve a complete review of the design and redesign where needed, so fitting them shouldn't be a problem.

The capacity won't be an issue either. A single AAA alkaline battery has a capacity of 860–1200 mAh. A 9 V alkaline has about 550 mAh. You could have the lossiest boost converter in the world and still come out on top. Obviously, you wouldn't use that converter a lot, as most things could be powered from a lower voltage without issue.

Perhaps the best argument is that the competition manages to use both AAA batteries and fit accessible fuses. Brymen does this in the much smaller and cheaper BM235 and Keysight does the same in the Agilent U1231A, even fitting four batteries for a capacity of almost 10 times that of a single 9 V battery. It shouldn't be much of a challenge to fit both in an 87V successor and it would make maintenance as easy and simple as actually using the meter is.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2018, 05:13:28 am »
AAA would make it much bigger, AAA wouldn't last as long if they need to be boosted to 9V internally.
Why would going with AAA make it much larger?

Typo: I meant AA

I guess 2xAA and booster might give approximately the same size/lifetime as a 9V, but... would it sell more meters? I doubt it.

(and that's the only question a bean-counter will ever ask)

I think Fluke fuses are expensive and difficult to replace on purpose - to make blowing them as painful as possible for you. Maybe you'll learn something from the experience.  :)

(Me? I'd keep it that way)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 05:19:13 am by Fungus »
 

Offline jaja_622

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2018, 05:24:28 am »
I've just pulled the trigger for the 87-v ;D I liked more the easy of use vs the 289, the battery life and the slower boot time in my opinion would be cumbersome in everyday use, also the size if you want to carry it everyday. That's not to say that it isn't a good meter, just not what i would prefer using everyday if you only need non-logging functions.
I have nothing against the use of 9V as a power source, why would you prefer AA or AAA? what are the disadvantages of 9V? the fuse door compartment would be a nice addition, but in my opinion it is not something that you change very often... in fact in my ~9 years of experience between grad school and professional life I only manage to do a short with a meter once.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2018, 05:26:07 am »
AAA would make it much bigger, AAA wouldn't last as long if they need to be boosted to 9V internally.
Why would going with AAA make it much larger?

Typo: I meant AA
Ah, that makes more sense :) Considering a single AA battery has a capacity of 1800–2600 mAh versus 860–1200 mAh for AAA, it's basically an engineering choice. You could use two instead of four. Dave's new meter does use four AA batteries, so it's not completely infeasible. It's obviously quite thick, but Dave insisted on making it no bigger than the footprint of a BM235. Maybe a less compact meter could be less thick and still hold four AAA batteries.

It does seem Fluke is following the same logic, as I think all of the more modern Flukes have done away with the 9 V battery. The compact Fluke 101 uses two AAA and the 17B+ uses two AA batteries.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2018, 05:28:58 am »
why would you prefer AA or AAA? what are the disadvantages of 9V?

a) Slightly cheaper (although you're not exactly changing batteries on a daily basis, so...  :-// )
b) Easier to find in an emergency than 9V
c) There is no (c)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2018, 05:32:43 am »
I've just pulled the trigger for the 87-v ;D I liked more the easy of use vs the 289, the battery life and the slower boot time in my opinion would be cumbersome in everyday use, also the size if you want to carry it everyday. That's not to say that it isn't a good meter, just not what i would prefer using everyday if you only need non-logging functions.
I have nothing against the use of 9V as a power source, why would you prefer AA or AAA? what are the disadvantages of 9V? the fuse door compartment would be a nice addition, but in my opinion it is not something that you change very often... in fact in my ~9 years of experience between grad school and professional life I only manage to do a short with a meter once.
It's a good meter, despite the 9 V battery and inaccessible fuses. I love the simplicity and how quick it is. You certainly didn't make a bad choice. It's a meter you're bound to enjoy for a long time.

The main advantages of AA or AAA batteries are having more capacity in roughly the same space and them being cheaper and more widely available. I thought the same about the fuses, but had to replace one for the first time the other day and taking such an expensive meter apart, with self tapping screws in plastic and having to snap the casing apart didn't quite feel comfortable. I prefer the accessible fuses of the Keysight for sure. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it doesn't quite coincide with the quality of the rest of the meter.
 

Offline jaja_622

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2018, 06:02:47 am »
It's a good meter, despite the 9 V battery and inaccessible fuses. I love the simplicity and how quick it is. You certainly didn't make a bad choice. It's a meter you're bound to enjoy for a long time.

The main advantages of AA or AAA batteries are having more capacity in roughly the same space and them being cheaper and more widely available. I thought the same about the fuses, but had to replace one for the first time the other day and taking such an expensive meter apart, with self tapping screws in plastic and having to snap the casing apart didn't quite feel comfortable. I prefer the accessible fuses of the Keysight for sure. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it doesn't quite coincide with the quality of the rest of the meter.
Yeah, I agree with you. It would be better with a fuse access door and maybe the AA battery(still not very convinced that this makes much difference, at least IMHO).
But as other people said, you buy a Fluke for the reliability and confidence on the instrument, I can't stress this enough, having a meter that you don't trust when making a reading is the worst thing that can happen to you (well... maybe the second one, the first would be that it blows on you). I wish I had the money to have one of these when I was in grad school and was using those cheap meters to diagnose my circuits.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2018, 06:39:29 am »
One of the disadvantages in opening the meter to replace a fuse is you are forced to break calibration seals. Being a hobbyist this does not matter at all (perhaps some will disagree with me).

You got a very nice meter that will last a lifetime - congratulations!

If you happen to see some shortcomings that you find addressed in other meters, you can always add another meter (although your ET-2033B is a reasonable second meter) or simply resell it as it tends to hold its value pretty well over the years. 

One additional detail is that, since you put quite an emphasis on low current measurements, you may find useful to look into Dave's uCurrent to keep the burden voltage low.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2018, 06:59:29 am »
One of the disadvantages in opening the meter to replace a fuse is you are forced to break calibration seals. Being a hobbyist this does not matter at all (perhaps some will disagree with me).

If you blow a fuse you're supposed to get it recalibrated anyway.

(In fact this might be a reason Fluke makes the fuses inaccessible... to force people to break seals in environments where meters are controlled/audited)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2018, 07:13:29 am »
If you blow a fuse you're supposed to get it recalibrated anyway.

(In fact this might be a reason Fluke makes the fuses inaccessible... to force people to break seals in environments where meters are controlled/audited)
The manual doesn't mention the need for calibration after replacing the fuses. I think it was a competing model, but remember that manual specifically stating that recalibration was not required after replacing the fuses. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Obviously, you could just stick the calibration sticker over the fuse door if that's the concern. I think some bench meters do it that way.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #90 on: January 10, 2018, 07:48:33 am »
The manual doesn't mention the need for calibration after replacing the fuses.

It wouldn't be because of the fuses, it would be because you opened it up and might contaminate the insides.

(which would be solved by having the fuses in an external compartment, so we're going in circles...  :scared: )


The other argument I've heard is that the F87 fuses are internal for safety reasons, to contain any blast when they vaporize.

My Fluke 27 has the fuses in the battery compartment but it has a massive battery door (four screws!) and a secondary blast cover over the fuses when you get inside.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #91 on: January 10, 2018, 08:17:54 am »
If you blow a fuse you're supposed to get it recalibrated anyway.

(In fact this might be a reason Fluke makes the fuses inaccessible... to force people to break seals in environments where meters are controlled/audited)
The manual doesn't mention the need for calibration after replacing the fuses. I think it was a competing model, but remember that manual specifically stating that recalibration was not required after replacing the fuses. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Obviously, you could just stick the calibration sticker over the fuse door if that's the concern. I think some bench meters do it that way.
I couldn't find anything for the 87-5, but the removal of fuses without the need to re-calibrate is sold as an advantage on the Fluke 187-189 manual:


Therefore, a blown fuse does not require recalibration in all DMM models (which could potentially be extended to ALL models, unless it was a damaging blow that spews material all over the PCB) and the 87-5 will most probably require recalibration after fuse replacement.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2018, 08:24:54 am »
...
It wouldn't be because of the fuses, it would be because you opened it up and might contaminate the insides.
(which would be solved by having the fuses in an external compartment, so we're going in circles...  :scared: )

Depending on the energy applied, in theory, you could have damaged something else in addition to fuse.. Hence calibration...
In big companies, they don't let you change the fuse yourself. You return it for repair and calibration. To them it's damaged for whatever reason as it doesn't work properly anymore. And you are not allowed to mess with the instrument. You have to deliver it to department in charge of instrumentation maintenance to be repaired and calibrated... Many places are like that, military, oil refineries, chemical plants ....
It is probably designed that way ON REQUEST by such customers..

Also you are right, it is part of mechanical containment design, and as you mention, if you do it differently, you need to reinforce door...
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2018, 09:16:03 am »
Lest we forget that with a LOT of Flukes (and other brands?) a number #1 MAJOR disadvantage in opening the meter to replace a fuse, whether or not it affects calibration status or validity,
is you are inadvertently cracking, breaking or compromising the holding strength of the plastic posts which mate with self tapping screws decades of ongoing production oversight/apathy meets DUMBASSERY

Basically the meter can not, and will not, meet it's CAT specs on a serious BANG!
and the user better pray the yellow holster helps in absorbing some of it,
especially in HV/HI work if not wearing FULL protective gear, which most don't, the reason being (besides laziness) that the expensive pr0fessional meter is assumed 'safe' 

The concerned user approaching poverty that can't dish out for another overpriced hyped meter, now has the option to doing what's in the photo below
to improve the raped posts CAT-Less meter's chances on a BANG!
and lift its chances to stay intact during a drop on to a concrete or marble floor,

as weakened, cracked or sheared posts certainly won't be doing the meter and the user's pocket any favors...  :--
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:46:03 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #94 on: January 10, 2018, 09:23:36 am »
If they do produce a Fluke 87-6  :-//   they may include the Low Z feature, perhaps an AC proximity sensor alert

a) It would be called the 87 VI  :palm:


That might cause confusion with the 87 IV, and besides Roman numerals are approaching passe status   :-- :--


b) They wouldn't add new features in an existing product line, they'd create an exciting new line (and charge accordingly).


They did that with the 87-1, added features, and a faster Min-Max Peak capture to 87-3 and 87V...hasn't hurt sales yet in 25+ years 

I understand that there really isn't much that the 87-V is missing


Ability to default to DC in current mode?

Not going to happen any time soon, when cashed up electrical based tradespeople being the 'AC voltage and current' big spenders (and GAS showoffs)   :-DMM :-DMM   in 2017, 2018 and beyond 


and any insane redesign from 9v battery use to AA or AAA on the classic 87x format is just begging for leakage mayhem   :scared: 



« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 09:35:23 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline stj

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2018, 10:11:57 am »
maybe a CR2 lithium cell would be a compromise??
or just specify the use of lithium AA's - i'v never heard of a leak.
maybe that's why some camera brands specify them.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #96 on: January 11, 2018, 06:05:29 am »
Not going to happen any time soon, when cashed up electrical based tradespeople being the 'AC voltage and current' big spenders (and GAS showoffs)   :-DMM :-DMM   in 2017, 2018 and beyond 


and any insane redesign from 9v battery use to AA or AAA on the classic 87x format is just begging for leakage mayhem   :scared:

It's unlikely this would change because generally changing  default on an existing product is not well received. I also don't really think this is a significant issue for the user base. I've had the 87 since the early 90's and it's something you just get used to.

I prefer having the 9v in the 87. For a very long time the 87 was my only meter and  I used to carry an original 87 to out of the way shit holes all over the world. Never ever had a situation where I needed to replace the battery immediately. These are not meters that eat though batteries like some of my others. The ant-9v battery in the 87 is just needless whining at best.

 

Offline Kilo Tango

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #97 on: January 11, 2018, 06:31:01 am »
This works for me, rechargables last a long time.

Ken
 

Offline LoFi

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #98 on: January 11, 2018, 12:56:25 pm »
I would vote for two new Fluke meters:

1) a small compact meter, similar to Fluke 107 in size, but with most of the current 87v features (including autohold, analog graph, min/max/avg, Peak).  Perhaps limited to 6000 count.  Street price about $150 or so... I'd buy one in a heartbeat... even if it weren't quite as accurate as the current 87v, but with most of the current features.

2) an updated 87vi similar to current 87v size, but with a slightly bigger LCD display, and a few other upgrades.  I kind of like the form factor and one-handed control dial of the Fluke 117, and wouldn't mind seeing that used in an 87vi... but perhaps that would be messing too much with tradition.  The bigger display is one thing about the 17b+ that I like a better than the 87v... I find the 17b+ easier to read in dim light without needing to resort to the backlight.  I'd like a higher default count, say 10,000 count instead of the current 6000, although this isn't huge.  But a number of cheapies are starting to show up with with higher counts, so Fluke should probably respond. Other features already mentioned: easy fuse access, simple bluetooth capabilities and simple logging.  The 87v is already pretty fast... but go ahead... make it faster!... and even more accurate... and more bulletproof.  I won't complain.

(Edit: Oh, I thought of a couple more I'd really like.  Allow the user to make DC the default for current rather than AC... I frequently trip over this.  Lo-Z and NCV from the 117 would also be quite nice).

Although it's an old design, the 87v is still a great meter and doesn't lack for much.... but it's probably time to bump up the value for price.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 01:17:15 pm by LoFi »
"Don't play stupid with me... I'm better at it."
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2018, 08:02:37 pm »
I vote for some 87-6 'keep the same style don't change it' extra TURN ON user options that should be easy peazy to implement. 

1. Current mode set to read DC whether rocking back and forth from A/mA to uA
When meter is switched off, it reverts back to the same AC current default (switchable to DC)

2. Low Z on AC voltage
When meter is switched off, it reverts back to non Low Z AC voltage default

3. ALL the OPTIONS engraved in the back of the meter body, AND a laminated card that can be stored between body and holster

4. A better kickstand that's actually USABLE and unbreakable please!!!

5. Keep the price REAL

6. Two FREE 87-6 meters for me  :-DMM :-DMM from Fluke for suggesting this,
on top of the FAT royalty check/cheque,
because I deserve it and because Fluke will clean up with this meter (winner winner, LOTS of chicken dinners)


Of course there's more that may be crammed into the 87-6 aka 87VLE (Limited Edition)  without causing grief to Fluke production  :scared: :scared:

I'll post it here when my suggestion clouds come rolling back...  :=\ after a few beers
 


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