Fluke 87V successor from Fluke?

[BBBbbb]

Not sure any customs pay attention to the declared price of goods coming from China, usually they'll google it if it looks expensive.

Fluke 87VC package is printed in Chinese, and it looks nothing different than a cheap Chinese meter on the box. Unless the custom officer is also an EE and knows Fluke, otherwise it's likely they won't bother.
F87VC does have international warranty (you need to ask the seller to print a formal invoice for you with your name on it), and is internally identical to F87 international version.

Even if you pay tax honestly, it's still can be cheaper to import than buy locally, especially for high tax, high welfare countries like EU or Australia.

Nope, Chinese print won't stop them for opening the box and seeing Fluke 87V(C) on the meter and then google and see the EU (or US) listed prices and tax you on that value.
Here it would mean 30% (VAT 20% + 10% c.tariff) and it would end up the same as bought locally.

[lem_ix]

Not sure Fluke has any real competition in their main segment.
They have good level of local support in almost any country (representation and calibration) and superior traceability. Fact that you get more bang for the buck from Brymen or someone else doesn't mean too much to big players procuring equipment.

Here and probably in similar countries big players seem more prudent with their money. For example Sanwa here seems to be the meter of choice probably because of senior engineer recommendation. Then again electronics engineers aren't really Fluke's main market.

[blacksheeplogic]

5. Keep the price REAL = $1250?

with all the extra goodies thrown in like good leads/probes (not the generic semi-stiffies) insulated croc clips, the magnet hanging thingie, hard case, spare fuses
and full user instruction manual in paperback form with included applications, specs, limitations, DO NOTS, and cautions


AND screw metal inserts, no more ongoing inferior plastic post CAT defeating    FIASCOS, please...

I do not disagree with your point on providing additional value, Fluke could and should provide additional value. The Magnetic Strap to me should have been in the box for example. The lack of metal threaded inserts was a problem on the older meters which needed to be opened for battery replacement and calibration. It's not an issue now.

My point was simply that a company will price it's products based on what the market segment is willing to pay. I don't have a problem with this because I would do the same. Like yourself, when I needed a meter I could depend on the Fluke was the choice, it's what our supplies had, and I paid the asking price. Today, there's others out there but Fluke still has the reputation and the long time user base.

The hobbyists market is largely a race to the bottom and is seems there's plenty of manufactures in that market, but hobbyists have an expectation that all manufactures should cater to their price points. Some have chosen not to however.

[Mr. Scram]

Maybe you should take a look at what's known as the "Danaher Business System". It's a bit notorious and certainly doesn't have the customer or product well-being in mind. They'll squeeze Fluke for all it's worth, eroding the brand if they have to. You see reputation cash grabs everywhere and it's not pretty, but people catch on sooner or later.

[jaja_622]

The hobbyists market is largely a race to the bottom and is seems there's plenty of manufactures in that market, but hobbyists have an expectation that all manufactures should cater to their price points. Some have chosen not to however.

For the same price of F87V, you can get a Keysight meter with a lot of bells and whistles as well as some fairly advanced features that only exist in F289, plus a luxury set of test leads (at least my U1461A came with a luxury set of them, don't know what's included with $400 range meters).

You do have to pay some price for the better bang per buck, that's firmware bugs. My U1461A is a death trap, and its analog mux sometimes gets configured improperly so that the meter reads 0V or a random small floating voltage when its test leads are actually seeing many hundreds of volts*.
I can see that being a huge problem for electrical uses, but for electronics uses where for most of the time you are probing a <100V circuit, this is not a big problem -- if I see some stupid readings, I know the analog mux is fucked up again and I just need to reboot the meter. When I do touch anywhere mains connected, I have an F289 for that.
But that being said, the U1461A is a one of its kind meter. You don't see too many meters that comes with a programmable 1.1kV power supply built in and a nA resolution current detector. The insulation DMM is very handy for my SMPS testing, as an insulation sanity check before I hook it up to mains. The same functionality (particularly, 1V resolution programmable test voltage) on a better insulation meter brand, such as Megger, will cost many times the price I paid for my U1461A. For the money, I'm quite happy.

If you read the GW121 bugs thread, you will see the same trend -- more features on a cheaper meter=more bugs. Fluke spent tons of money to make sure their firmware will not do stupid thing like not reading a high voltage, which can cause death. But on the other hand, you have to pay for the premium, and live with reduced functionality. If I'm only looking for a benchtop low voltage meter, I will still consider functionality over safety.

*: This has also happened to previous U12xx meters, and it gets worse in my U1461A. It occasionally reports blown fuse in current fuse, which actually the fuse is fine and I just need to reboot the meter. It also shows zero reading in current mode occasionally, in addition to voltage mode, and similarly, OL in Ohms range and open in diode/continuity/capacitance mode. The difference is U1461A still hasn't received a firmware fix on this issue, and the last firmware update dates back to 2015.

Having those kinds of error when working with mains voltage can get you killed, while I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices, in reality the assurance that you won't have those kind of errors is what you are paying for... and if you ask me, 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

[Fungus]

I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices ... 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

Did you know that Fluke makes other meters apart from the 87V?

With $100 to spend I can choose between half a dozen Fluke multimeters.

Even with only $50 budget I can still get a super-safe Fluke, with delivery! 

[jaja_622]

I agree that Fluke could lower some of its prices ... 100 or 200 dollars extra to have a meter you can rely on isn't that bad considering the consequences that reading 0V on a live 220V circuit could have.

Did you know that Fluke makes other meters apart from the 87V?

With $100 to spend I can choose between half a dozen Fluke multimeters.

Even with only $50 budget I can still get a super-safe Fluke, with delivery! 

Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.
Of course you can get a cheaper DMM, but in that case it will probably have less features than a similar priced option from other brand also.

[Fungus]

Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.

On a checkbox-feature list, maybe.

But ... a month ago who would have suspected the reason that Fluke carefully takes all the PCB vias away from the switch contacts on their PCBs?

Let's compare a typical multimeter (vias in the tracks) with a Fluke 17B+ (where all the vias are moved off to the side). 


Fluke obviously does that for a reason but can you guess why? 

It appears that those vias cause friction, create resistance in the switch contact and shorten the life of the meter. That picture shows the 17B+ after the switch has been turned 50,000 times (the ZT101 above is brand new).

Compare it to the ZT101 after 50,000 turns:


Question: Which of those two meters is overpriced?

(and what other tricks does Fluke know when it comes to building reliable multimeters)

Flukes also have those precision laser trimmed resistors in them for stability and long life, etc. Those things are expensive, you won't find them in cheapo meters.

[HKJ]

Question: Which of those two meters is overpriced?

When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.

[Fungus]

When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.

Yes, Brymen is really the only other brand that holds up well under scrutiny.

[LoFi]

Yeah I understand that.. maybe I expressed myself wrong... is when you try and compare similar featured test equipment that the Fluke's usually command a certain premium.

On a checkbox-feature list, maybe.

But ... a month ago who would have suspected the reason that Fluke carefully takes all the PCB vias away from the switch contacts on their PCBs?

Let's compare a typical multimeter (vias in the tracks) with a Fluke 17B+ (where all the vias are moved off to the side). 
...
It appears that those vias cause friction, create resistance in the switch contact and shorten the life of the meter. That picture shows the 17B+ after the switch has been turned 50,000 times (the ZT101 above is brand new).

Compare it to the ZT101 after 50,000 turns:
...

Interesting.  I had not seen these photos before.  Does the ZT101 still function correctly?... seems hard to imagine with switch contacts degraded that much.  I have been impressed with the function and accuracy of the little cheapo AN8002/AN8008 (which I believe are in the same family as the ZT101).  But such photos show pretty conclusively that these can only be considered for light use. Not surprising for a $20 meter, but still helpful to see the photographic evidence.  It would be interesting to see what those ZT101 contacts look like after just 10K or 20K turns.   It's reassuring to see that Fluke builds this kind of quality into even their least expensive meters (17b+).  Thanks for posting this...

[Fungus]

Interesting.  I had not seen these photos before.

They're screenshots I just made from videos over in the robustness thread.

Does the ZT101 still function correctly?

No.

It would be interesting to see what those ZT101 contacts look like after just 10K or 20K turns.

There's no photos of the insides but there's measurements of the contact resistance as it progresses. The Fluke stays close to zero for the entire test, the ZT101/AN8008 doesn't. See video.

It's reassuring to see that Fluke builds this kind of quality into even their least expensive meters (17b+).  Thanks for posting this...

A month ago I was in the "Fluke17B+ is overpriced" camp.

Now I'm not so sure, it's starting to look like a nice little meter - definitely the same DNA as the 87V.

[LoFi]

A month ago I was in the "Fluke17B+" is overpriced camp.

Now I'm not so sure, it's starting to look like a nice little meter - definitely the same DNA as the 87V.

Yes. I recently bought a 17b+ as a 2nd good meter to back up an 87v.  I've been impressed with the quality and value-for-price.  It's not as quick as the 87v, or quite as accurate, but is still a very nice meter and feels very solid and fluke-like.  The switch-contact test photos seem to support that...

[zaoka]

When you compare, remember to include Brymen, they are cheaper than Fluke.

Yes, Brymen is really the only other brand that holds up well under scrutiny.

Look Hioki meters, that brand is one of the best.

[Electro Detective]

The 'entry level' Fluke fared better than the 24/7 sweatshop produced cheapo clay pigeon meters,

but hey, the Fluke is 10 times the price, so you would expect some value for money, especially selector switch longevity


Perhaps if the wheel choc cheapo meters were opened up ocassionally for a selector switch dust off a reflow and light lube, they would last a LOT longer,

assuming the owner cares and hasn't got a 'just bin it' policy in place   

[Electro Detective]

The 'entry level' Fluke fared better than the 24/7 sweatshop produced cheapo clay pigeon meters,

You seem to have a beef with Chinese factories.
Those so called sweat shops are nowhere to be seen anymore.
Chinese factory workers still have much inferior working condition and compensation by western standard,
but compared with the brutal rapid capitalization period of China (80s, 90s), things are getting much better now.

 

Then perhaps they should be referred to as 'polished' sweat shops    if that helps tone down the vibe 

[Electro Detective]

KEEPING the 9v battery, versus AA and AAA in the Fluke 87 meter:

The 9v battery clip (if in good condition and tensioned properly with the battery) makes for a great direct connection to the 87x meter at all times,

so no funny business going on as the battery drops down to 8 and 7 volts... it should still be a solid performer, even when bumped   


unlike AA and AAAs jumping or moving off their terminals ever so slightly when meter is knocked about,

especially once the holding foam shrinks and or turns to sticky goo and literally pulls the batteries off their terminals, TRUE STORY!   

I'd rather take the risk of ONE 9v battery taking a leak at the bottom of the 87V to clean up (and a few dollars spent for a new battery clip if crusty and green) ,
than 3 or 4 AA or AAAs going off at random, leaking their jazz ALL OVER THE MAIN BOARD and selector switch tracks !!! 

I certainly would not grumble at, or expect Fluke to sort that out cheap, nor do it for free under warranty   


An option for a second 9v battery in parallel and or sitting there as a spare would be a handy meter update for Fluke 87V-LE 


Where's the Fluke rep with my overdue royalty cheques, and box of free prototype meters to test, evaluate and fine tune?   

[Falkra]

I have a 87-V, 27-II and 28-II at the moment.

Same features, as said before. The 28-II is a tank, really heavy in comparison.

I have a feeling that the 27 and 28 are faster than the 87 when measuring. You get the value on display quicker than with the 87-V.
Can someone confirm ? Maybe something related to the autoranging routines (optimized) ?

[joeqsmith]

It would be interesting to see what those ZT101 contacts look like after just 10K or 20K turns.

There's no photos of the insides but there's measurements of the contact resistance as it progresses. The Fluke stays close to zero for the entire test, the ZT101/AN8008 doesn't. See video.

That would be difficult aside from pulling the meter apart for inspection.  Brymen does this and you may have noticed in the one clip they provided, they had machined a viewing port into the case of one of the meters they were running.    I wonder what sort of testing UEI perfromed on their new meter.   

So far the only meters that I have looked at that even come close to matching that Flukes contact resistance was the two Brymens.  However, PA4TIM posted the following response:

Nice testing, Brymen, the new Fluke ;-) About switches. I just repaired two Fluke 336 meters. Both had problems with the lubricated switches. The grease and copper/gold "grinding-dust" caused leakage between switch positions. see a picture on my site:

http://schneiderelectronicsrepair.nl/?p=597

[Fungus]

I have a 87-V, 27-II and 28-II at the moment.

Same features, as said before. The 28-II is a tank, really heavy in comparison.

The Fluke web site says it's only 10% heavier. 

[EEVblog]

I have a 87-V, 27-II and 28-II at the moment.

Same features, as said before. The 28-II is a tank, really heavy in comparison.

The Fluke web site says it's only 10% heavier. 

+1 for tank.
It's not something I'd want to use on the bench.
It was designed for the military and industrial markets.
2018 and still no replacement for the venerable 87...

[Fungus]

2018 and still no replacement for the venerable 87...

It's still the industry standard, still selling like hot cakes, why would they replace it?

[Falkra]

I have a 87-V, 27-II and 28-II at the moment.

Same features, as said before. The 28-II is a tank, really heavy in comparison.

The Fluke web site says it's only 10% heavier. 

It feels even heavier. 

Let's compare !  For science, of course, with that awesome scale (erm, "sensitive computer"). 
The batteries are inside, so it's the only reason why the 28-II feels heavy. It has heavy batteries inside. 

See attachments.

[Fungus]

I would like to see KS to roll an F87/F289 killer with actually no deadly bugs.

There already are some F87 killers on sale but Fluke's branding is so strong that very few people can name them.

[rx8pilot]

I purchased a Fluke 87 in 1995. It has traveled the world. I lost it once, only to find it in Las Vegas 2 years later.

Still in daily use.

Short and misplld from my mobile......