Author Topic: Hameg 408-1A  (Read 39979 times)

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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #125 on: June 26, 2017, 08:45:46 pm »
Great, good pointers from Sky that also point you to the SMPS FB circuitry that I mentioned in reply #77.
R462 out of spec will certainly bugger things up and all those divider resistors need be checked.

Good to know you can get another PSU if needed.  :-+
[/quote
Yes you did indeed, I thought the FB was the IC's, never gave that section of the circuit any great thought, silly I know when you look at it, all the voltages are present there (or rather they should be haha).

As to the new psu if required, do you really think the scope is worthy of that kind of money being spent on it? Or would it be better put towards something a little newer and more advanced?
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Offline tautech

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #126 on: June 26, 2017, 09:15:36 pm »
Great, good pointers from Sky that also point you to the SMPS FB circuitry that I mentioned in reply #77.
R462 out of spec will certainly bugger things up and all those divider resistors need be checked.

Good to know you can get another PSU if needed.  :-+
Yes you did indeed, I thought the FB was the IC's, never gave that section of the circuit any great thought, silly I know when you look at it, all the voltages are present there (or rather they should be haha).

As to the new psu if required, do you really think the scope is worthy of that kind of money being spent on it? Or would it be better put towards something a little newer and more advanced?
Proceed with this repair........remember the SMPS is shutting down as it should in a fault condition, the FB for this to happen is likely coming only from the part of the circuit currently being focussed on. A few dividers and a couple of transistors shouldn't be hard to get right now that the componentry around the SMPS IC has been carefully checked.
This scope looks like a very nice unit and if it is close to being fixed and proves it is indeed a top CRO then the PSU could be well worth the money.
Once you have this and the Phillips fixed you can make the choice which to keep and maybe fund the PSU from the sale of the Phillips.
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #127 on: June 26, 2017, 09:36:37 pm »
Great minds think alike.. I already have the Philips on Ebay, while I was waiting around for the various parts to arrive for the Hameg, I looked at the philips and thought it was performing reasonably well. Checked the calibration with my tester and it seems to be so close to being right that it wasn't worth while cracking it open to adjust it. Run through all the various parts that I could with it and it seems to be working well so it's up for sale.

I have that sweet little Hitachi V525 (50Mhz) that I got a couple of weeks ago, also a basic Rapid Electronics 25Mhz one in mint condition only a couple of years old which I doubt has been used for more than a few hours, along with a lovely old 60Mhz Iwatsu SS-5710 which is a 4 tracer and a Goldstar OS-9100D (100Mhz) which is a 3 tracer so with the Hameg (I'd have to keep it after all the work that has gone into it now and does have that storage capability even if it is basic when compared to a DSO) I don't think I'd need more than those haha.

I know, never say never, I just enjoy working with them and putting them back into some sort of usable state rather than letting them going for landfill.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #128 on: June 26, 2017, 09:50:54 pm »
I know, never say never, I just enjoy working with them and putting them back into some sort of usable state rather than letting them going for landfill.
Me too.....in the past.
That's how I got into the industry and repairs of TE is very satisfying.
I used to put all the manuals I could find onto a CD, provide new cheapie probes and resell them.
I got enough back that I could buy more broken units, rinse and repeat.

Whatsmore on this forum we provide a valuable resource for those with similar problems and learn a lot along the way too.
Your detailed posts and regular updates make threads like this a good read.

I've still got a few old 'not right' CRO's tucked away for repair threads.......if I ever get around to them.  ::)
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2017, 11:38:31 am »
Yes I agree, TE has a draw to it, especially CRO's many of which are some 30 years old and are still capable of being everyday tools, I wonder if the same could be said about the new breed of DSO's with their custom chips etc. That's one reason why I have so far avoided Tektronics scopes because of their heavy use of custom hybrids which almost certainly means that once they get to a certain age, Tektonics will pull the plug on supporting the old hybrids.

Is it me or do you find that DMM's suck at measuring resistance with the item still in circuit? I replaced that 475k minimelf one with a brand new one that I checked prior to soldering it back and it was bang on 475k, once soldering back, it read again around the 400k as the previous one did. The DMM was ever so slowly creeping upwards in its reading. I dragged out my old Avo Model 8 and tested it in circuit and it went straight to approx 475k. So is this because of the higher impedance of the DMM that there is far less current being drawn and therefore any caps in circuit can only charge up very slowly whereas my old Avo being a 20,000 ohms per volt instrument will allow more current to flow and therefore any caps in circuit become almost immediately charged and that 475k resistance in circuit now reads around 475k. Have I been chasing ghosts all time using the DMM for in circuit measurements????
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Offline tronde

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2017, 06:00:34 pm »
That's one reason why I have so far avoided Tektronics scopes because of their heavy use of custom hybrids which almost certainly means that once they get to a certain age, Tektonics will pull the plug on supporting the old hybrids.


Some of the more advanced Philips scopes suffer from the same disease.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2017, 07:42:52 pm »
Yes I agree, TE has a draw to it, especially CRO's many of which are some 30 years old and are still capable of being everyday tools, I wonder if the same could be said about the new breed of DSO's with their custom chips etc. That's one reason why I have so far avoided Tektronics scopes because of their heavy use of custom hybrids which almost certainly means that once they get to a certain age, Tektonics will pull the plug on supporting the old hybrids.
The US seems to be the place to be as the supply of old gear to fix and donor units seems inexhaustible.  :(
IMO the future there will likely be mostly electrolytic replacement and SMPS repair as much SMD construction these days is very reliable. Other than rare infant mortality products I sell are proving very reliable.

Quote
Is it me or do you find that DMM's suck at measuring resistance with the item still in circuit? I replaced that 475k minimelf one with a brand new one that I checked prior to soldering it back and it was bang on 475k, once soldering back, it read again around the 400k as the previous one did. The DMM was ever so slowly creeping upwards in its reading. I dragged out my old Avo Model 8 and tested it in circuit and it went straight to approx 475k. So is this because of the higher impedance of the DMM that there is far less current being drawn and therefore any caps in circuit can only charge up very slowly whereas my old Avo being a 20,000 ohms per volt instrument will allow more current to flow and therefore any caps in circuit become almost immediately charged and that 475k resistance in circuit now reads around 475k. Have I been chasing ghosts all time using the DMM for in circuit measurements????
Some equipment is better than others at in-circuit measurement and one need be careful with stressing other componentry than what you are trying to measure. It is true that there is some interpretation required and mostly I just look for resistance that IS NOT greater than the marked value as there is often another current path to shunt the value lower than marked values. Resistors mostly drift high so this method works for me. Semiconductors and caps is where I focus my attention. Poor joints and connectors too.

Oh yeah, and I have an Avo 8 that gets used occasionally too.  :)
Most of my measurements are done with a ST-3 smart tweezer, it's so fast to use and quite accurate. Many think they're toys but I can assure you they're not. Convinced a few members to get them (now ST5) and I don't think any are disappointed. Trouble with them....they're not cheap.  :(
With a Fluke 15B and the above there's a lot I can do before having to drag out any of the bigger guns in my range of demos.
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Offline WastelandTek

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2017, 07:58:26 pm »

Is it me or do you find that DMM's suck at measuring resistance with the item still in circuit? I replaced that 475k minimelf one with a brand new one that I checked prior to soldering it back and it was bang on 475k, once soldering back, it read again around the 400k as the previous one did. The DMM was ever so slowly creeping upwards in its reading. I dragged out my old Avo Model 8 and tested it in circuit and it went straight to approx 475k. So is this because of the higher impedance of the DMM that there is far less current being drawn and therefore any caps in circuit can only charge up very slowly whereas my old Avo being a 20,000 ohms per volt instrument will allow more current to flow and therefore any caps in circuit become almost immediately charged and that 475k resistance in circuit now reads around 475k. Have I been chasing ghosts all time using the DMM for in circuit measurements????

sounds like your meter was charging a cap to me
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2017, 08:12:12 pm »
Yes I know, I did have a look at them myself and decided that most of what I get involved with is likely to be through hole stuff, I got my self a pair of tweezers that plug into any meter for now. Eventually I think I can see myself getting some along with an IC  tester as well.
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2017, 08:19:23 pm »

Is it me or do you find that DMM's suck at measuring resistance with the item still in circuit? I replaced that 475k minimelf one with a brand new one that I checked prior to soldering it back and it was bang on 475k, once soldering back, it read again around the 400k as the previous one did. The DMM was ever so slowly creeping upwards in its reading. I dragged out my old Avo Model 8 and tested it in circuit and it went straight to approx 475k. So is this because of the higher impedance of the DMM that there is far less current being drawn and therefore any caps in circuit can only charge up very slowly whereas my old Avo being a 20,000 ohms per volt instrument will allow more current to flow and therefore any caps in circuit become almost immediately charged and that 475k resistance in circuit now reads around 475k. Have I been chasing ghosts all time using the DMM for in circuit measurements????

sounds like your meter was charging a cap to me


Yes that's what I thought, the DMM is about 20M per volt whereas the AVO is 20K per volt therefore more current with AVO to charge the cap considerably quicker to the point that the eye can't see it as much because the resolution is less with analogue meters.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2017, 08:26:30 pm »
Yes I know, I did have a look at them myself and decided that most of what I get involved with is likely to be through hole stuff, I got my self a pair of tweezers that plug into any meter for now. Eventually I think I can see myself getting some along with an IC  tester as well.
Never bothered with IC testers as mostly functionality can be checked with a scope and/or DMM. Knowing how to interpret datasheets is the key and checking the parameter measurements in the circuit are correct for the IC to do its job. IC's are fairly tough but with catastrophic failures close by they need be suspect.
The one tool I have on a wishlist is an infrared camera.  8)
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #136 on: June 27, 2017, 10:00:37 pm »
Never bothered with IC testers as mostly functionality can be checked with a scope and/or DMM. Knowing how to interpret datasheets is the key and checking the parameter measurements in the circuit are correct for the IC to do its job. IC's are fairly tough but with catastrophic failures close by they need be suspect.
The one tool I have on a wishlist is an infrared camera.  8)
The reason for the IC tester was not just to check if they are running OK, but more importantly to help identify chips that either have poor printing on them or have been wiped by the equipment manufacturer so that you have to source spares from them, if you catch my drift?

What I use to spot anything that is getting hot is an infra-red temperature probe, works really well with a colour changing screen so that you can set safe temperatures to have say a green display and readout and anything that exceeds your chosen setting could set the screen to red? The screen also always reads out the actual temperature regardless of your chosen ranges so you can actually see what each part is sitting at.

The screen has a choice of 3 colours, Blue for temperatures that are below your set figure, Green for anything within your safe range and Red for anything that is over your safe range. You have a laser dot that you aim at the component and it transmits its temperature back to your handheld gun and by scanning this slowly over your test circuit you can quickly identify anything that is getting hot or cold and it only costs a few £ from your local Lidl store when they get them in. Maplin and other such electronics stores sell them but far more expensive then Lidl's price when they get them in.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #137 on: June 27, 2017, 10:11:31 pm »
Yep, used IR guns on machinery and they are useful for spot checks. IR camera is the ideal for PCB's but the cost.  :scared:
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #138 on: June 27, 2017, 10:34:28 pm »
Camera is the best for all heat related issues if you can afford one, but IR gun is a good second choice, I run a infra-red scan over all my scopes looking for hot spots on the PCB's but as yet have not found anything that was running hot, not even on the Hameg so I don't think we have any overloading going on, just a dicky smps which as we already know, had been worked on before I got it so the damage was already done. Leaving me with a game of cluedo to solve now looking for that smoking gun...
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #139 on: June 29, 2017, 07:53:07 pm »
Quick update, started to go round the board looking at testing everything I can either in circuit or by lifting one leg which is fine with the through hole stuff but proving to be a real pig on the smd stuff, still awaiting one or two transistors (smd's) as they tend to got lost once I can get them pried away from the dreadful glue that they are bedded down on. I say get lost, truth is that they require a bit of force and they go bloody flying and get lost. Give me through hole circuits everytime please. Its proving to be a bit of a pig TBH as there are so many possible paths to ground etc. when in circuit testing and even using a DMM or AMM can in many cases give conflicting results.

Anyway, so far not found anything that far out of spec that should cause the smps to shut down, so is the smoking gun one of the IC's on the board or an overload on one of the other boards causing the problem? Once the missing transistor arrives and is fitted I'll try it again and if no change, I'll swop out the IC's and see if it works then...
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Offline tautech

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #140 on: June 29, 2017, 08:33:38 pm »
Spotted a neat and simple way to check optos on the forum a day or two back.

2 DMM's, one on diode test checking the LED (needs sufficient voltage to do so) and the other across the photo-transistor using continuity check.
Shit easy I thought.  :clap:
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #141 on: June 29, 2017, 08:45:19 pm »
Spotted a neat and simple way to check optos on the forum a day or two back.

2 DMM's, one on diode test checking the LED (needs sufficient voltage to do so) and the other across the photo-transistor using continuity check.
Shit easy I thought.  :clap:
In or out of circuit? I suppose you could use a AA battery to power the LED and then only require a single meter, even an old analogue one on continuity mode?
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Offline tautech

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #142 on: June 29, 2017, 08:58:37 pm »
Spotted a neat and simple way to check optos on the forum a day or two back.

2 DMM's, one on diode test checking the LED (needs sufficient voltage to do so) and the other across the photo-transistor using continuity check.
Shit easy I thought.  :clap:
In or out of circuit? I suppose you could use a AA battery to power the LED and then only require a single meter, even an old analogue one on continuity mode?
OUT, and you can't use external power without a current limiting resistor or you'll blow the opto LED.
Have a fiddle with some LED's and DMM's to find which will light them up on diode test mode.
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #143 on: June 29, 2017, 09:34:34 pm »
Well thats easy, I only have the one DMM so its that one and I'll try it now. Well that was easy peasy, on my meter it didn't work at all, mind you I was using yellow, green and red LEDs, I don't have a white one to try. I thought my battery was flat so I tried a few normal diodes, they tested perfectly but with an LED I get nothing in both directions?
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #144 on: June 29, 2017, 09:48:53 pm »
Just checked batteries and their fine, swapped them for new ones anyway and the same result so I guess that my meter gives an ultra low voltage which is not high enough make an LED conduct.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #145 on: June 29, 2017, 09:53:21 pm »
Well thats easy, I only have the one DMM so its that one and I'll try it now. Well that was easy peasy, on my meter it didn't work at all, mind you I was using yellow, green and red LEDs, I don't have a white one to try. I thought my battery was flat so I tried a few normal diodes, they tested perfectly but with an LED I get nothing in both directions?
Not unusual.
Not all DMM's have enough diode test Vf to check LED's, you need up to 3 V to check all colours.
Just checked batteries and their fine, swapped them for new ones anyway and the same result so I guess that my meter gives an ultra low voltage which is not high enough make an LED conduct.
Yep.
Grab the opto datasheet and check the Vf and max current for the diode and power it externally via a current limiting resistor.
If you look at the SMPS FB circuit, the opto LED is essentially fed +12V via 5k6 R473 assuming the opamp TL081 swings to full rail voltage. Further along the rail monitoring network will be pulling the opto LED voltage down in fault condition.
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Offline SpecmasterTopic starter

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #146 on: June 29, 2017, 10:11:27 pm »
Yep, I just checked my LEDs using my bench supply and they start to conduct at around 2v.
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Offline tronde

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #147 on: June 30, 2017, 12:53:30 am »
I have some vague memories from the late 1980s when I used to repair TVs about trouble with optocouplers in the feedback loop. They appeared to be OK, but did not work in the circuit. I understand that they can change their transfer characteristic over time. We gave up using generic parts and got replacements from the manufacturer.
 

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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #148 on: June 30, 2017, 06:41:48 am »
Well it has crossed my mind that it is possible that one or both of the opto's could be the cause of the problem so I got in some replacements but have not got the smps in a state to try swapping out the old ones yet. I'm still waiting for some smd transistors to replace one that flew across the room upon removal for testing.
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Re: Hameg 408-1A
« Reply #149 on: July 01, 2017, 09:39:51 pm »
Update.
All the suspect parts have been replaced etc, all solder joints have been re flowed etc, psu connected back and via dim bulb tester, bulb glowed dimly briefly as the capacitors charged up then went out but nothing on the screen or LED's lit or anything so for the time being until I can get confirmation from Sky or anyone else who actually has a 408 just what the resistance to ground should be at P2700 then I'm doing nothing more with this for the time being.

I think the general consensus is that it a scope worthy of restoring but at what cost? I can get a new replacement psu for this from Germany but is it worth it, especially until we know if that is all that is wrong with the scope and I feel that conformation of the ideal resistance to ground on the various rails should be at the check plug should greatly assist with that. The last thing I want to is go and order a new expensive replacement, plug it in and any prevailing fault elsewhere takes out the psu again.

I suppose it would be a long shot that another member here in the UK has a 408-1A that either they no longer want, that I might be able to make a really good one from the pair?

I thank all the members who have so readily given me no end of advice and assistance so, it really is appreciated.
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