How can warranty be void if 'warranty void' sticker is broken?

[Bob Sava]

From what I read, quote from the article below, as per Magnusson Moss Warranty Act, "Warranty Void" stickers violate federal laws and may also violate right-to-repair state laws.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gv5ddm/warranty-void-if-removed-stickers-are-illegal

If you own a gaming console, laptop, or computer, it's likely you've seen one of these warnings in the form of a sticker placed over a screw or a seam: "Warranty void if removed."

In addition, big manufacturers such as Sony, Microsoft, and Apple explicitly note or imply in their official agreements that their year-long manufacturer warranties—which entitle you to a replacement or repair if your device is defective—are void if consumers attempt to repair their gadgets or take them to a third party repair professional.

What almost no one knows is that these stickers and clauses are illegal under a federal law passed in 1975 called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.

To be clear, federal law says you can open your electronics without voiding the warranty, regardless of what the language of that warranty says.

This counterintuitive fact has far-reaching implications as manufacturers have stepped up their attempts to monopolize the device repair market.

[Rog520]

I'd enjoy seeing a court ruling on this one. Most consumer products are covered under a limited warranty, and the manufacturer may impose reasonable ... limitations... as to the terms and extent of the warranty. Tampering with, altering, or modifying a device (which a broken sticker would serve as and indication of) is one common and perfectly legal (as far as I'm aware) reason to invalidate a warranty. Also, the law covers only consumer devices, not commercial ones. And service stickers (we used to apply these to equipment that we had repaired) are a totally different thing, too.

[edavid]

Magnuson-Moss supersedes the warranty language.  The manufacturer has to show that the consumer's "tampering" caused the defect.  The problem is that usually the consumer's only recourse is small claims court.

[Rog520]

I'm not a lawyer but my reading of the law indicates that manufacturers who provide labor and parts free of charge as part of their warranty (which is most warranties on consumer electronics, for the term of the warranty) are allowed to place limitations on where the consumer may get the device repaired - thus the warranty void sticker. Where certain aspects of labor and/or parts are not covered under warranty then the manufacturer may not place restrictions on where the device is repaired or what brand of parts are used. With most consumer electronics products there is no legitimate reason for the consumer to open the device because the warranty covers any potential problem which would require it to be opened...unlike a car, for example, which may require routine non-warranty maintenance or repair, for example.

[Elasia]

  *cough* *cough* 

[edavid]

I'm not a lawyer but my reading of the law indicates that manufacturers who provide labor and parts free of charge as part of their warranty (which is most warranties on consumer electronics, for the term of the warranty) are allowed to place limitations on where the consumer may get the device repaired - thus the warranty void sticker. Where certain aspects of labor and/or parts are not covered under warranty then the manufacturer may not place restrictions on where the device is repaired or what brand of parts are used. With most consumer electronics products there is no legitimate reason for the consumer to open the device because the warranty covers any potential problem which would require it to be opened...unlike a car, for example, which may require routine non-warranty maintenance or repair, for example.

The limitation only applies to warranty repairs.   Let's say the device fails twice.  The consumer may choose to repair failure #1 herself, and make a warranty claim for failure #2.   The warranty is still valid unless the first repair specifically caused failure #2.

Another common case is the external disk drive that is shucked and used without the enclosure.  If the drive fails, it is still covered under warranty unless the shucking caused the failure.

[Rog520]

The limitation only applies to warranty repairs.   Let's say the device fails twice.  The consumer may choose to repair failure #1 herself, and make a warranty claim for failure #2.   The warranty is still valid unless the first repair specifically caused failure #2.

I don't see that provision mentioned anywhere in the law. The consumer can definitely make a choice. If they decide to attempt a repair on an otherwise in-warranty product that has free parts/labor coverage, then they forfeit the warranty. I know a lot of hackers are trying to find a way that entitles them to keep their warranty while tinkering with the insides of their goodies, but legally I think they would lose. Again, I would like to see a court case on this...but a search turns up nothing. Certainly it would be enormously class-actionable if it was a legitimate concern.

Another common case is the external disk drive that is shucked and used without the enclosure.  If the drive fails, it is still covered under warranty unless the shucking caused the failure.

Yes, so long as the drive itself is not opened.

[edavid]

The limitation only applies to warranty repairs.   Let's say the device fails twice.  The consumer may choose to repair failure #1 herself, and make a warranty claim for failure #2.   The warranty is still valid unless the first repair specifically caused failure #2.

I don't see that provision mentioned anywhere in the law. The consumer can definitely make a choice. If they decide to attempt a repair on an otherwise in-warranty product that has free parts/labor coverage, then they forfeit the warranty. I know a lot of hackers are trying to find a way that entitles them to keep their warranty while tinkering with the insides of their goodies, but legally I think they would lose. Again, I would like to see a court case on this...but a search turns up nothing. Certainly it would be enormously class-actionable if it was a legitimate concern.

Consider the case where your in-warranty car won't start, and you're nowhere near a dealer, so you take care of the (minor) repair yourself.  Do you really think it would be legal for the car manufacturer to void the rest of the car's warranty?

[Rog520]

Consider the case where your in-warranty car won't start, and you're nowhere near a dealer, so you take care of the (minor) repair yourself.  Do you really think it would be legal for the car manufacturer to void the rest of the car's warranty?

I think we're straying a little here. A car's warranty typically is not voided when someone else (besides an authorized dealer or repair center) does repair work. That's because the manufacturer has consented to allow it. After all, no one would buy their car if they enforced dealer-only repairs. Could they enforce it? Probably. It's not illegal, provided (again) that the repair is provided free of charge to the consumer. But many manufacturers of electronics devices have decided to enforce it. Again, not illegal so long as repairs are provided free of charge to the consumer. I suppose if enough consumers decided to boycott a product because of it, then that may change. But I don't see that happening. That's my take on it anyway. Here's the relevant snippet (as it applies to cars) from the FTC's website:

"In fact, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which is enforced by the FTC, makes it illegal for manufacturers or dealers to claim that your warranty is void or to deny coverage under your warranty simply because someone other than the dealer did the work. The manufacturer or dealer can, however, require consumers to use select repair facilities if the repair services are provided to consumers free of charge under the warranty."

Note that repairs which are not covered under warranty may be serviced by anyone without voiding the warranty .... unless such repairs lead to damage.

[Bob Sava]

Destroyed the "warranty void' sticker is not an indication of service or alternation work being performed.

[Elasia]

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/business-blog/2015/06/latest-word-warranties

If you have the training/knowledge to do your own repairs and demand parts while it is in warranty then the stickers don't mean shit.  I've gotten parts from mfgs before.. some are cool about it some are assnine.  Take like siglent for example.. pretty well known issue with a particular psu they sell, the banana/jack posts are too deep / loose in some of them.. their answer? ship the user new posts to install themselves and thats documented right on this forum.. guess what those units also got? a sticker

If however you do not have training and you cause damage then you voided it.  It really is just like a car but people are easier to relate to cars and fixing a car is a lot more general knowledge vs electronics repair which is more specialized knowledge.

Now.. here is the rub, if the company doesnt like what you have done and refuses you regardless, what is your recourse? small claims?  How many people would do that?  It comes down to risk vs reward and it is highly stacked in their favor with electronics and a mass fog of what user rights are..  now a repair shop on the other hand might fight this because it is in their business interest to do so.

[Rog520]

Destroyed the "warranty void' sticker is not an indication of service or alternation work being performed.

There are many ways you can invalidate your warranty that have nothing to do with unauthorized service. Fact is that the manufacturer doesn't have to allow you access if they provide free warranty service. Now, with that aside, they can set all sorts of criteria for maintaining your warranty. You usually can't deface the serial number. Sometimes selling the item voids the warranty. Removing the warranty void sticker voids the warranty. Ferinstance, here's the Xbox fine print. This is typical of any consumer product, and I guarantee you that lawyers have scrutinized this many times over:

5. Warranty Exclusions
Microsoft is not responsible and this warranty does not apply if Your Xbox One or Accessory is:

(a) damaged by use with products not sold or licensed by Microsoft (including, for example, games and accessories not manufactured or licensed by Microsoft, and “pirated” games, etc.);

(b) used for commercial purposes (including, for example, rental, pay-per-play, etc.);

(c) opened, modified, or tampered with (including, for example, any attempt to defeat any Xbox One or Accessory technical limitation, security, or anti-piracy mechanism, etc.), or its serial number is altered or removed;

(d) damaged by any external cause (including, for example, by being dropped, used with inadequate ventilation, etc., or failure to follow instructions in the instruction manual for the Xbox One or Accessory);

(e) scratched, dented, etc. or shows other cosmetic damage; or

(f) repaired by anyone other than Microsoft.

[Elasia]

Destroyed the "warranty void' sticker is not an indication of service or alternation work being performed.

There are many ways you can invalidate your warranty that have nothing to do with unauthorized service. Fact is that the manufacturer doesn't have to allow you access if they provide free warranty service. Now, with that aside, they can set all sorts of criteria for maintaining your warranty. You usually can't deface the serial number. Sometimes selling the item voids the warranty. Removing the warranty void sticker voids the warranty. Ferinstance, here's the Xbox fine print. This is typical of any consumer product, and I guarantee you that lawyers have scrutinized this many times over:

5. Warranty Exclusions
Microsoft is not responsible and this warranty does not apply if Your Xbox One or Accessory is:

(a) damaged by use with products not sold or licensed by Microsoft (including, for example, games and accessories not manufactured or licensed by Microsoft, and “pirated” games, etc.);

(b) used for commercial purposes (including, for example, rental, pay-per-play, etc.);

(c) opened, modified, or tampered with (including, for example, any attempt to defeat any Xbox One or Accessory technical limitation, security, or anti-piracy mechanism, etc.), or its serial number is altered or removed;

(d) damaged by any external cause (including, for example, by being dropped, used with inadequate ventilation, etc., or failure to follow instructions in the instruction manual for the Xbox One or Accessory);

(e) scratched, dented, etc. or shows other cosmetic damage; or

(f) repaired by anyone other than Microsoft.

And its completely bogus language inside the US.. this is 800 pound gorilla tactics vs a gnat.  All they have to do is scare people away from their rights or confuse them and they win if the vast majority are duped

More food for thought below, a more recent supreme court case that was 7 to 1

https://www.wired.com/2017/06/impression-v-lexmark/

[Rog520]

And its completely bogus language inside the US.. this is 800 pound gorilla tactics vs a gnat.  All they have to do is scare people away from their rights or confuse them and they win if the vast majority are duped

More food for thought below, a more recent supreme court case that was 7 to 1

https://www.wired.com/2017/06/impression-v-lexmark/

OK, that ruling doesn't address warranties or repairs. And here's the thing: it's not a scare tactic, it's a contract. And you have no right to violate a contract that you entered into voluntarily, and then demand that the other party uphold their end of the bargain and compensate you. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the product. It's that simple.

[Elasia]

And its completely bogus language inside the US.. this is 800 pound gorilla tactics vs a gnat.  All they have to do is scare people away from their rights or confuse them and they win if the vast majority are duped

More food for thought below, a more recent supreme court case that was 7 to 1

https://www.wired.com/2017/06/impression-v-lexmark/

OK, that ruling doesn't address warranties or repairs. And here's the thing: it's not a scare tactic, it's a contract. And you have no right to violate a contract that you entered into voluntarily, and then demand that the other party uphold their end of the bargain and compensate you. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the product. It's that simple.

Sure you can, courts are allowed to strike invalid language and do it all the time without nulling the entire contract and in fact pretty much all of them state that if a court nullifies part of the language the rest of the contract remains intact to the extent enforceable by the court.  That particular ruling goes deeper in that you cant be blocked to modify or repair your own goods due to rights of first sale etc.  This gives you the basic prime to do the repair work yourself or go to a 3rd party in the first place and then claim parts or cost of parts reimbursement from the mfg.

What you wont get from the mfg is labor cost incurred or not usually less major defect.  Now the practical implications of this.. either you go to small claims and get a tiny settlement which few people do and even those that do would be moved to arbitration / settle out of court for the most part leaving only a small fraction of people to deal with.  Mean while they are reaping huge profit margins on the scheme.  And with their huge margins they can buy political power and fairly well keep the same bullshit in place for all intents and purposes.

This has more to do with keeping a very lucrative profit scheme than dealing with law itself.. propaganda is greater than the truth.

In the end, if you dont like it.. sue.. but you will pay in time to do it and thats what they bank on and also they got lawyers just to sandbag people that try so whos going to do it when it will bankrupt most folk?

Not saying this is right or wrong.. this is just how things go at least in the states behind the curtain

[Rog520]

Sure you can, courts are allowed to strike invalid language and do it all the time without nulling the entire contract and in fact pretty much all of them state that if a court nullifies part of the language the rest of the contract remains intact to the extent enforceable by the court.  That particular ruling goes deeper in that you cant be blocked to modify or repair your own goods due to rights of first sale etc.  This gives you the basic prime to do the repair work yourself or go to a 3rd party in the first place and then claim parts or cost of parts reimbursement from the mfg.

It's never been illegal (with a few exceptions) to repair or modify things that you buy. But again, that doesn't entitle you to the benefits of a warranty contract if you violate its terms. Warranties are not an extension of patent law.

[electrolust]

Interesting timing on this thread. Just today, the FTC put out a press release announcing 6 companies have been warned about invalid/illegal warranty voiding.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-companies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-coverage

I believe this largely doesn't apply to test equipment since they made clear that these practices are allowed if

warrantors provide the parts or services for free

[edavid]

I believe this largely doesn't apply to test equipment since they made clear that these practices are allowed if

warrantors provide the parts or services for free

That doesn't have anything to do with the warranty sticker issue though.  It's clearly illegal.

[Lightages]

How about when a company puts a warranty void sticker over a part that is required to open to change fuses. This has been the case of tme,eu on multimeters. I am 100% sure that almost anywhere n the civilized world that trying to block a normal operation of a device as a requirement to maintain a warranty would be invalid.

[ian.ameline]

The stickers are clearly illegal in the USA.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-companies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-coverage

[Elasia]

The stickers are clearly illegal in the USA.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-companies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-coverage

just loops back to my original argument above.. but this may open the door to more class action type activity that may get legs

[edavid]

I see nothing unethical for not to provide warranty to disassembled goods. Who knows if the user intentionally destroyed something in order to get a new replacement?

A manufacturer who cares about quality will be doing failure analysis on the returns.

I know some pathetic losers will intentionally zap out of production and almost out of warranty laptops and claim warranty, in order to get a new, upgraded (equivalent) version with 90 days more warranty.

The vast majority of customers are honest, so why should they suffer because there are a few losers out there?

[edavid]

Most CONSUMERS are honest, but there are professional lurkers and traders that do this shit for a living.
I didn't find a vivid second hand market in US, but second hand electronics are extremely popular in China.
Imagine how those non authorized sellers can provide mint condition goods with free warranty.
I grew up in a Chinese computer store, and for those computer parts traders, destroy and request warranty is standard protocol.

Well, we are talking about US warranty laws (Magnuson-Moss).  What are the warranty laws in China?

[bugi]

The vast majority of customers are honest, so why should they suffer because there are a few losers out there?

I'm going to spin this one around: "... why should manufacturers suffer because there are (quite) a few losers out there?"

After all, stickers or no stickers, those honest customers would not suffer anyway, if they accept the normal warranty repair (and not trying to do things by themselves). (Assuming the manufacturer is also playing nice and honest, too.)

If someone is going to reply on the track of "manufacturers have the money", the obvious continuation is, no, they don't. Some manufacturers do have nice amount of money in the bank, but all the money they have comes from those other customers, so in the end, all customers would suffer from those losers anyway.

(Also, do you happen to have some solid facts about that claim "vast majority of customers being honest", especially on the "vast"ness of the share?  Consider that in most western cultures that would be difficult to measure since laws and regulations tend to keep the dishonest ones not doing the bad things... most of the time.)

[Bob Sava]

Disregarding for a moment that apparently, with some effort, sticker can be defeated.

What do 'bad' people do to make manufacturers 'suffer'?

[Elasia]

I see nothing unethical for not to provide warranty to disassembled goods. Who knows if the user intentionally destroyed something in order to get a new replacement?
I know some pathetic losers will intentionally zap out of production and almost out of warranty laptops and claim warranty, in order to get a new, upgraded (equivalent) version with 90 days more warranty.

I completely agree with this... if a user has altered their product in a way that has damaged the parts to be replaced then their warranty for free parts is null and void for that much like a car.

If however said parts were indeed defective and not modified then a user should have the right to repair and get replacement oem parts if it cannot be sourced elsewhere and at a market rate or for free if covered under warranty.. again just like a car.

At least for America the FTC seems to finally be coming down on the electronics industry for these bogus practices and force them to align to other already regulated industries like Autos

[edavid]

After all, stickers or no stickers, those honest customers would not suffer anyway, if they accept the normal warranty repair (and not trying to do things by themselves).

No, that's not true.

A very common example... the bridge board in an external USB drive fails.  If you send it for warranty service, you will lose your data.  If you open the enclosure to recover your data first, the manufacturer may claim the warranty is void.

[Bob Sava]

I guess we got our answer:

"The Federal Trade Commission recently announced that warning stickers that say people will void their warranties are not only meaningless but also illegal."

https://news.google.com/news/search/section/q/ftc%20sticker/ftc%20sticker?hl=en&gl=US&ned=us


However, companies may challenge this in court still:
"The FTC is demanding that companies remove language from their websites and to stop voiding warranties over broken stickers within thirty days. It’s not clear yet if anybody will fight this in court, but it seems unlikely that every electronics and gaming company will let this slide without at least trying to bend a judge’s ear. But if this holds, it’ll mean cheaper and easier repairs for the rest of us."

[Elasia]

Apple id bet if anybody...  they use their name to hawk cheap shit in mass and have a fleet of zealots to gobble the shit they spew.

Now that they are in the service parts model that will hurt their bottom line

[bugi]

After all, stickers or no stickers, those honest customers would not suffer anyway, if they accept the normal warranty repair (and not trying to do things by themselves).

No, that's not true.

A very common example... the bridge board in an external USB drive fails.  If you send it for warranty service, you will lose your data.  If you open the enclosure to recover your data first, the manufacturer may claim the warranty is void.

Good point. On that particular type of device - many devices don't contain anything to be lost.

But then again, repairing such device and failure in a way it should be repaired would not lose data. For example, my first warranty trip with one of my tablets had a display issue; no data was lost, as they opened it and changed the display module only. But on the second trip they had to replace motherboard, so naturally it came back in factory state.

Also, as all storage device manufacturers indicate somewhere, at least in the small print, "have backups, warranty won't cover data loss". Having the data only on that single USB drive (which is going to fail, in one way or another, sooner or later, with 100% certainty) was the user's mistake. After all, warranties won't cover data if the read heads fail, or a fire burns it all, etc. either.

Your example is still valid in some specific cases, like, say, recording TV "digi boxes", with some / many? models having no possibility for backing up the recorded data. It would be easy to transfer over the HDD from unit to another (assuming the HDD itself wasn't broken), but will the service do that...

[electrolust]

The stickers are clearly illegal in the USA.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-companies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-coverage

That's the exact link I posted just 2 posts earlier.  It is not clearly illegal per that FTC post. In fact, the opposite is implied.  They specifically mention warranty stickers are illegal, unless warranty service is free.

[electrolust]

I guess we got our answer:

"The Federal Trade Commission recently announced that warning stickers that say people will void their warranties are not only meaningless but also illegal."

https://news.google.com/news/search/section/q/ftc%20sticker/ftc%20sticker?hl=en&gl=US&ned=us

None of those stories, not even WaPo, are consistent with the FTC press release, which offers a specific exclusion if warranty service is free.
However, companies may challenge this in court still:
"The FTC is demanding that companies remove language from their websites and to stop voiding warranties over broken stickers within thirty days. It’s not clear yet if anybody will fight this in court, but it seems unlikely that every electronics and gaming company will let this slide without at least trying to bend a judge’s ear. But if this holds, it’ll mean cheaper and easier repairs for the rest of us."

[edavid]

The stickers are clearly illegal in the USA.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-companies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-coverage

That's the exact link I posted just 2 posts earlier.  It is not clearly illegal per that FTC post. In fact, the opposite is implied.  They specifically mention warranty stickers are illegal, unless warranty service is free.

I think you are wrong, and the "warranty service is free" exception only applies to the anti-tying part of the law, not to warning stickers.

[electrolust]

The stickers are clearly illegal in the USA.

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-companies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-coverage

That's the exact link I posted just 2 posts earlier.  It is not clearly illegal per that FTC post. In fact, the opposite is implied.  They specifically mention warranty stickers are illegal, unless warranty service is free.

I think you are wrong, and the "warranty service is free" exception only applies to the anti-tying part of the law, not to warning stickers.

I may very well be. My only claim is that the FTC press release, not the actual law which I am not commenting on, implies that the stickers are fine for test equipment, since warranty service is free.

Not sure what anti-tying is, but the press release makes no mention of a narrow application of the exception.

[Rog520]

I think you are wrong, and the "warranty service is free" exception only applies to the anti-tying part of the law, not to warning stickers.

You're conflating two different things here. One, the law which states that manufacturers may require that you obtain authorized service if such service is provided free of charge. Two, the terms of your warranty, among which there's a provision for keeping the seal on your device intact. "If you open your device, your warranty is forfeit" does not conflict with the law. You lose your right to the free warranty service when you breach your contract. As I mentioned some posts back there are a number of ways that you can invalidate your warranty.

[edavid]

"If you open your device, your warranty is forfeit" does not conflict with the law.

The FTC has stated that it does conflict with the law.

[Elasia]

"If you open your device, your warranty is forfeit" does not conflict with the law.

The FTC has stated that it does conflict with the law.

'This warranty does not apply if this product . . .  has had the warranty seal on the [product] altered, defaced, or removed.'

They called it directly out... and if not changed the ftc will be pushing it to court so there you go

[Rog520]

"If you open your device, your warranty is forfeit" does not conflict with the law.

The FTC has stated that it does conflict with the law.

No, not for most devices, for which the manufacturer offers free repair service....so long as the terms of the warranty aren't violated. If the manufacturer specifically forbids you from opening the device per the terms of the warranty, then you will void your warranty by opening the device. This is perfectly legal, clearly stated, and has been the defacto standard for half a century. The real issue here is not the legitimacy of the law, but the existence of a group of entitled hackers who want the right to do whatever they please without consequence. Lawyers would be breaking down doors if this was a real issue. All I hear is crickets.

From the FTC press release:

"Unless warrantors provide the parts or services for free or receive a waiver from the FTC, such statements generally are prohibited by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act."

[Mr. Scram]

No, not for most devices, for which the manufacturer offers free repair service....so long as the terms of the warranty aren't violated. If the manufacturer specifically forbids you from opening the device per the terms of the warranty, then you will void your warranty by opening the device. This is perfectly legal, clearly stated, and has been the defacto standard for half a century. The real issue here is not the legitimacy of the law, but the existence of a group of entitled hackers who want the right to do whatever they please without consequence. Lawyers would be breaking down doors if this was a real issue. All I hear is crickets.

What country are we talking about? In many parts of the world the manufacturer or seller is bound to the law. He cannot limit or infringe your rights. In some cases trying to do so even extends your rights. Only when a manufacturer adds his own warranty on top of what's legally required he can set conditions. The US also has what's called implied warranties, which is basically that a product should behave as intended for a reasonable amount of time.

The reason it's still common as mud is probablys the fact that manufacterers and shops get away with it. Nobody is going to start an expensive court case for a product that just costs not even a few hundred dollar. People also tend to be incredibly gullible when it comes to these kinds of things. People's rights get violated in the most egregious ways and many people simply accept it.

[Rog520]

No, not for most devices, for which the manufacturer offers free repair service....so long as the terms of the warranty aren't violated. If the manufacturer specifically forbids you from opening the device per the terms of the warranty, then you will void your warranty by opening the device. This is perfectly legal, clearly stated, and has been the defacto standard for half a century. The real issue here is not the legitimacy of the law, but the existence of a group of entitled hackers who want the right to do whatever they please without consequence. Lawyers would be breaking down doors if this was a real issue. All I hear is crickets.

What country are we talking about? In many parts of the world the manufacturer or seller is bound to the law. He cannot limit or infringe your rights. In some cases trying to do so even extends your rights. Only when a manufacturer adds his own warranty on top of what's legally required he can set conditions.

The USA. No manufacturer is legally required to provide any warranty. If they do, then it must comply with the law. However, that warranty is a contract between you and manufacturer, which both parties enter into voluntarily. If the terms of the contract are breached then the warranty is invalidated.

[Rog520]

Nobody is going to start an expensive court case for a product that just costs not even a few hundred dollar. People also tend to be incredibly gullible when it comes to these kinds of things. People's rights get violated in the most egregious ways and many people simply accept it.

Oh, a class action suit would be incredibly profitable to a group of lawyers, to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. No takers on it. Why not?

Exactly which rights are being violated here?

 

[Mr. Scram]

Oh, a class action suit would be incredibly profitable to a group of lawyers, to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. No takers on it. Why not?

Exactly which rights are being violated here?

 

These: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/chapter-50

Maybe it would be fruitful to get into why you think the article and the lawyers quoted therein are wrong. I'm going to assume you read it, right?

[Rog520]

Maybe it would be fruitful to get into why you think the article and the lawyers quoted therein are wrong. I'm going to assume you read it, right?

So the entirety of federal consumer product code is being violated? You'll need to be much more specific than that.

I've read every link presented in this thread, as well as many others that I've researched on my own. Most of what's been presented is not factually relevant, as it comes from forums and newspaper stories. That wouldn't pass muster in a court or research environment. If you're so inclined, lawyer up and let us know how it goes.

[wraper]

I see nothing unethical for not to provide warranty to disassembled goods. Who knows if the user intentionally destroyed something in order to get a new replacement?

A manufacturer who cares about quality will be doing failure analysis on the returns.

Sorry but how this is relevant? If item was disassembled, you don't even know if failure wasn't caused by someone lurking inside. Even if nothing was mechanically damaged, then what about possible ESD damage in the middle of the circuit. You cannot use such item for failure analysis to begin with.

I know some pathetic losers will intentionally zap out of production and almost out of warranty laptops and claim warranty, in order to get a new, upgraded (equivalent) version with 90 days more warranty.

The vast majority of customers are honest, so why should they suffer because there are a few losers out there?

If someone is honest, what that someone has to do inside the device under warranty? Want try fixing yourself, consider the consequences. Repair technicians can certainly say that repairing after someone's previous attempt is not something that you would be happy to do.  You need first to figure out what is messed up in addition to original fault and will it be fixable at all. Often you almost fix it, just to figure out that something else was damaged during previous repair attempt and that something is not fixable because of, say, broken trace or beyond economic repair.

[Mr. Scram]

So the entirety of federal consumer product code is being violated? You'll need to be much more specific than that.

I've read every link presented in this thread, as well as many others that I've researched on my own. Most of what's been presented is not factually relevant, as it comes from forums and newspaper stories. That wouldn't pass muster in a court or research environment. If you're so inclined, lawyer up and let us know how it goes.

According to your logic, your posts here are not factually relevant as they come from a forum.

Countering by doubting the source, rather than countering the actual arguments isn't quite convincing. The article links to specific statutes of the law, to statements made by a relevant federal organisation and quotes a consulted lawyer. These are typically things that carry weight, inside or outside of a courtroom.

[edavid]

If someone is honest, what that someone has to do inside the device under warranty?

Example 1: the bridge board fails on my external hard drive; I open it to recover the data, but I still want to have it repaired under warranty

Example 2: the power jack breaks on my laptop, so I just resolder it myself; later, the GPU fails, so I want to have it repaired under warranty

Want try fixing yourself, consider the consequences.

That's fine, but the consequences are supposed to be based on the facts of the situation, not arbitrary rules based on stickers.

[wraper]

Example 2: the power jack breaks on my laptop, so I just resolder it myself; later, the GPU fails, so I want to have it repaired under warranty

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

[Mr. Scram]

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

[Elasia]

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

Ding Ding Ding... why the fuck do people think the same laws that apply to cars and other items do not apply to electronics?  Hint... because its in the mfgs interest to cloud your judgement.  And if you want to go down the road of dirty corporate tactics to chase dollars just see the oil industry which is littered with cases of that.

[wraper]

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

When you repair a car, you generally change a certain block. Not take out PCBs with a lot of flex connectors attached and tiny parts unprotected. And if you do, you'll only destroy that block which you took apart. Also if you damage something in a car, it won't destroy a whole car or make it beyond economic repair, not the case for electronics.

[wraper]

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

Ding Ding Ding... why the fuck do people think the same laws that apply to cars and other items do not apply to electronics?  Hint... because its in the mfgs interest to cloud your judgement.  And if you want to go down the road of dirty corporate tactics to chase dollars just see the oil industry which is littered with cases of that.

Because some people cannot see the difference. If you do $300 damage to the car, not a big deal. If you do $300 damage to the electronics, it's generally beyond economic repair unless it's some sort of very expensive device.

[Mr. Scram]

When you repair a car, you generally change a certain block. Not take out boards with a lot of flex connectors attached. And if you do, you'll only destroy that block which you took apart. Also if you damage something in a car, it won't destroy a whole car or make it beyond economic repair, not the case for electronics.

Something as simple as putting in the wrong oil or putting back the spark plug leads in the wrong order can lead to permanent and widespread damage. Cars are very complex and tightly packed nowadays, so even a seemingly trivial amount of damage means declaring a total loss on the car. To make matter worse, a car can endanger lives when it doesn't function correctly.

If anything, it's worse than electronics. Not better.

[Elasia]

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

When you repair a car, you generally change a certain block. Not take out PCBs with a lot of flex connectors attached and tiny parts unprotected. And if you do, you'll only destroy that block which you took apart. Also if you damage something in a car, it won't destroy a whole car or make it beyond economic repair, not the case for electronics.

So because people are ignorant that's the defense? What about all the people who dont know a thing about a car other than to drive it? Do they suddenly lose their rights?

[wraper]

When you repair a car, you generally change a certain block. Not take out boards with a lot of flex connectors attached. And if you do, you'll only destroy that block which you took apart. Also if you damage something in a car, it won't destroy a whole car or make it beyond economic repair, not the case for electronics.

Something as simple as putting in the wrong oil or putting back the spark plug leads in the wrong order can lead to permanent and widespread damage. Cars are very complex and tightly packed nowadays, so even a seemingly trivial amount of damage means declaring a total loss on the car. To make matter worse, a car can endanger lives when it doesn't function correctly.

If anything, it's worse than electronics. Not better.

Try claiming warranty on that.

[Mr. Scram]

Try claiming warranty on that.

It's not about losing warranty when you cause major damage, it's about losing your warranty when you change your own spark plugs.

[Rog520]

According to your logic, your posts here are not factually relevant as they come from a forum.

Countering by doubting the source, rather than countering the actual arguments isn't quite convincing. The article links to specific statutes of the law, to statements made by a relevant federal organisation and quotes a consulted lawyer. These are typically things that carry weight, inside or outside of a courtroom.

My posts aren't referencing forums from a gaming community or sensationalistic newspaper stories to reinforce my postition. I'm referring to specific aspects of specific laws and quotes from relevant agencies. I'm not saying I'm necessarily correct in my interpretation, but it's what I believe to be correct based on the law -- not by parroting a forum member with a gripe or an author tying to make a headline.

The nuances of the law are important and are being ignored -- most importantly, the clause which exempts manufacturers who provide free warranty service.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

Here's the difference: car makers have a different policy than most electronics manufacturers. That's it. There's nothing in the law that would prevent them from requiring you to use one of their authorized dealers to repair your car (again, so long as the service is done free of charge). But they don't require it.

This isn't rocket science, guys.

[bugi]

When you repair a car, you generally change a certain block. Not take out boards with a lot of flex connectors attached. And if you do, you'll only destroy that block which you took apart. Also if you damage something in a car, it won't destroy a whole car or make it beyond economic repair, not the case for electronics.

Something as simple as putting in the wrong oil or putting back the spark plug leads in the wrong order can lead to permanent and widespread damage. Cars are very complex and tightly packed nowadays, so even a seemingly trivial amount of damage means declaring a total loss on the car. To make matter worse, a car can endanger lives when it doesn't function correctly.

The biggest differences lie in the ability of the manufacturer to find the reason why something broke. Put that wrong oil in, manufacturer can take samples within and detect the wrong oil, even if the consumer noticed the mistake and tried to change the correct oil in. Or that incorrect spark plug order could be detected by the smart control computers (that is, once the plugs fire in the wrong order) and record the failure.  There are some delicate things in cars, but lots of it is still rather sturdy, easy to change things, especially with the easy guides/manuals. Even the electronics in cars is typically much much more robust than the average home electronics.  Sure there are things in cars which the consumer can break without anyone being able to tell how it really came to be, but compared to normal electronics...

... with electronics, it is nearly impossible to know why chip X has suddenly decided to not work (for example, was it user-caused ESD, or manufacturing defect, or ESD at the time of manufacturing that only now got the final blow from normal operation?)  No samples to take, no power control units to watch what is happening, no power for anything if such unit was there, no records, nada.  The only hint the manufacturer (or seller, or whatnot) has is the marks of opening the case and thus gaining access to areas where access was not supposed to be had or needed.

So yeah, cars are quite poor items to compare with electronics.

Also note that in many cases car sellers tend to require one to have periodic _non-free_ maintenance visits (sometimes even only at "authorized repairshop", though I think this part has gotten some eyeing from customer protection officials) to keep the full warranty, another example of differences in warranty policy.

It is not really easy and clear how it should be done; one way allows all the dishonest people abuse sellers/manufacturers and cause potentially big losses, but the other end causes sometimes inconvenience (and sometimes e.g. even loss of data) to the honest users.  And how to judge who should be allowed to open the device and tinker inside, and who should not be?  The average Joe would probably try to clean up the dusty insides with those nice totally super-static cleaning items that collect dust so efficiently (and also frying about every chip just as efficiently), and then claim "I have no clue why it stopped working! I did not do anything unusual..". But sometimes an experienced hobbyist is even better at fixing the problem than the "expert" at the shop - I have a number of real life examples, where the shop's repairman has been pretty much clueless about electronics, and breaking a new graphics card (without even noticing he caused it) while installing it.

So, what kind of laws and policies would keep every honest side happy simultaneously?

[orin]

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

When you repair a car, you generally change a certain block. Not take out PCBs with a lot of flex connectors attached and tiny parts unprotected. And if you do, you'll only destroy that block which you took apart. Also if you damage something in a car, it won't destroy a whole car or make it beyond economic repair, not the case for electronics.

Never repaired the LCD display in an Audi instrument panel then have you?  (Un)soldering! that flat-flex is so much fun.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/263498-Official-DIY-2000-Audi-S4-LCD-Instrument-Cluster-Pixel-Repair?highlight=cluster

And that's only _after_ you've got the wretched thing out of the car...

[wraper]

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

When you repair a car, you generally change a certain block. Not take out PCBs with a lot of flex connectors attached and tiny parts unprotected. And if you do, you'll only destroy that block which you took apart. Also if you damage something in a car, it won't destroy a whole car or make it beyond economic repair, not the case for electronics.

Never repaired the LCD display in an Audi instrument panel then have you?  (Un)soldering! that flat-flex is so much fun.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/263498-Official-DIY-2000-Audi-S4-LCD-Instrument-Cluster-Pixel-Repair?highlight=cluster

And that's only _after_ you've got the wretched thing out of the car...

It's not how it gets fixed at service. If you take apart and destroy separate block, it's not a big problem as it can be (and normally is) replaced as a whole unit. In case of electronic device, it would mean replacing a whole device. You don't throw away 5 years old car if ECU is broken. You most likely will throw away even 3y old laptop with damaged motherboard.
FWIW, likely you never worked at actual electronics repair business. It already barely makes any sense for modern electronics. It barely pays off to keep qualified technicians to do this. And if you need to figure out how stupid was 3rd party person who disassembled a device under warranty and keep the warranty if there is no apparent damage, makes even less sense. You cannot spend so much time and attention to repair electronic devices as you can with cars.

[maginnovision]

That usually means taking out the motherboard and possibility to break a lot of things in the process, including GPU.

It's no different from repairing a car with aftermarket parts, for which a warranty cannot be voided. Only if the replaced part actually caused the damage claimed under the warranty it can be denied, which is reasonable. In your example the user causes damage while replacing a part. That damage is not covered by warranty.

When you repair a car, you generally change a certain block. Not take out PCBs with a lot of flex connectors attached and tiny parts unprotected. And if you do, you'll only destroy that block which you took apart. Also if you damage something in a car, it won't destroy a whole car or make it beyond economic repair, not the case for electronics.

Never repaired the LCD display in an Audi instrument panel then have you?  (Un)soldering! that flat-flex is so much fun.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/263498-Official-DIY-2000-Audi-S4-LCD-Instrument-Cluster-Pixel-Repair?highlight=cluster

And that's only _after_ you've got the wretched thing out of the car...

It's not how it gets fixed at service. If you take apart and destroy separate block, it's not a big problem as it can be (and normally is) replaced as a whole unit. In case of electronic device, it would mean replacing a whole device. You don't throw away 5 years old car if ECU is broken. You most likely will throw away even 3y old laptop with damaged motherboard.
FWIW, likely you never worked at actual electronics repair business. It already barely makes any sense for modern electronics. It barely pays off to keep qualified technicians to do this. And if you need to figure out how stupid was 3rd party person who disassembled a device under warranty and keep the warranty if there is no apparent damage, makes even less sense. You cannot spend so much time and attention to repair electronic devices as you can with cars.

I have taken apart computers to reair and replace components, including removing tiny cables and what not. While it's possible to get a part replaced if you screw up it can be hard to find a reason when it's a few thousand dollars. It is a big deal to screw it up. Are you now or have you ever been an automotive technician? I'm assuming no, or at the least not a good one.

[wraper]

I have taken apart computers to reair and replace components, including removing tiny cables and what not. While it's possible to get a part replaced if you screw up it can be hard to find a reason when it's a few thousand dollars. It is a big deal to screw it up. Are you now or have you ever been an automotive technician? I'm assuming no, or at the least not a good one.

As of cars. If you take apart a working block, you're an idiot. And if it's broken, there is an option to buy used parts for much less than new. And if you know what automotive technicians do, they certainly don't take apart electronic blocks.
As of computers, for desktop you can buy separate components with separate warranty for each of them. They are meant to be assembled without any serious qualification. Laptops on the other hand are very risky to disassemble without instructions. Same with smartphones. Look at it funny and some enclosure hooks, flex cable and whatnot is broken (most of people don't even notice what they've done, especially with hooks). I've seen plenty of laptops damaged by idiots who took them apart. To the point I already knew by 99% that I will need to replace flex cables before taking them apart. Just by knowing the fact someone have already poked inside.

[Mr. Scram]

As of cars. If you take apart a working block, you're an idiot. And if it's broken, then an option to buy used parts for much less than new. And if you know what automotive technicians do, they certainly don't take apart electronic blocks.
As of computers, for desktop you can buy separate components with separate warranty for each of them. Laptops are very risky to dissasemble without instructions. Look at it funny and some enclosure hooks, flex cable and whatnot is broken. I've seen plenty of laptops damaged by idiots who took them apart. To the point I already knew by 99% that I will need to replace flex cables before taking them apart. Just by knowing the fact someone have already poked inside.

What is a "working block?" It almost sounds like cars are made out of Lego. While some very complicated components are hidden inside a much more manageable unit, fixing a car isn't like playing with giant Lego. There are a lot of details that can seriously trip you up. Computers are on the other hand much easier to assemble and disassemble, with everything neatly divided into separate components and hooked together with convenient plugs. It's often even colour coded.

[wraper]

As of cars. If you take apart a working block, you're an idiot. And if it's broken, then an option to buy used parts for much less than new. And if you know what automotive technicians do, they certainly don't take apart electronic blocks.
As of computers, for desktop you can buy separate components with separate warranty for each of them. Laptops are very risky to dissasemble without instructions. Look at it funny and some enclosure hooks, flex cable and whatnot is broken. I've seen plenty of laptops damaged by idiots who took them apart. To the point I already knew by 99% that I will need to replace flex cables before taking them apart. Just by knowing the fact someone have already poked inside.

What is a "working block?" It almost sounds like cars are made out of Lego. While some very complicated components are hidden inside a much more manageable unit, fixing a car isn't like playing with giant Lego. There are a lot of details that can seriously trip you up. Computers are on the other hand much easier to assemble and disassemble, with everything neatly divided into separate components and hooked together with convenient plugs. It's often even colour coded.

ECU, Dash panel, sensors, etc. All separate units with connectors. Unlikely to find bare PCB without separate enclosure.

[Elasia]

As of cars. If you take apart a working block, you're an idiot. And if it's broken, then an option to buy used parts for much less than new. And if you know what automotive technicians do, they certainly don't take apart electronic blocks.
As of computers, for desktop you can buy separate components with separate warranty for each of them. Laptops are very risky to dissasemble without instructions. Look at it funny and some enclosure hooks, flex cable and whatnot is broken. I've seen plenty of laptops damaged by idiots who took them apart. To the point I already knew by 99% that I will need to replace flex cables before taking them apart. Just by knowing the fact someone have already poked inside.

What is a "working block?" It almost sounds like cars are made out of Lego. While some very complicated components are hidden inside a much more manageable unit, fixing a car isn't like playing with giant Lego. There are a lot of details that can seriously trip you up. Computers are on the other hand much easier to assemble and disassemble, with everything neatly divided into separate components and hooked together with convenient plugs. It's often even colour coded.

His entire argument is based on that humans are ignorant baboons when it comes to any electronics.. you wont convenience him with logic

[Mr. Scram]

ECU, Dash panel, sensors, etc. All separate units with connectors. Unlikely to find bare PCB without separate enclosure.

Try replacing that dash or anything in in. That's a job even experienced mechanics often dread. It involves taking a lot of things apart with screws in the most inconvenient places. You thought laptops were inconvenient to work on? Try a modern car designed on a computer. Or try replacing a radiator. You'll be shoehorning a large metal chunk into a way too small space while also having to fit hoses and clamps. Don't scratch the paint or damage another part. You can't simply plug that in.

You can't seriously be arguing that working on car is so much easier than working on electronics is.

[wraper]

ECU, Dash panel, sensors, etc. All separate units with connectors. Unlikely to find bare PCB without separate enclosure.

Try replacing that dash or anything in in. That's a job even experienced mechanics often dread. It involves taking a lot of things apart with screws in the most inconvenient places. You thought laptops were inconvenient to work on? Try a modern car designed on a computer. Or try replacing a radiator. You'll be shoehorning a large metal chunk into a way too small space while also having to fit hoses and clamps. Don't scratch the paint or damage another part. You can't simply plug that in.

You can't seriously be arguing that working on car is so much easier than working on electronics is.

Those jobs are paid way more than you could charge for repairing electronics. You cannot spend a whole day repairing a laptop and be afloat, nobody will pay for it. It basically comes to - cannot repair within hour, scrap it.

[maginnovision]

I have taken apart computers to reair and replace components, including removing tiny cables and what not. While it's possible to get a part replaced if you screw up it can be hard to find a reason when it's a few thousand dollars. It is a big deal to screw it up. Are you now or have you ever been an automotive technician? I'm assuming no, or at the least not a good one.

As of cars. If you take apart a working block, you're an idiot. And if it's broken, there is an option to buy used parts for much less than new. And if you know what automotive technicians do, they certainly don't take apart electronic blocks.
As of computers, for desktop you can buy separate components with separate warranty for each of them. They are meant to be assembled without any serious qualification. Laptops on the other hand are very risky to disassemble without instructions. Same with smartphones. Look at it funny and some enclosure hooks, flex cable and whatnot is broken (most of people don't even notice what they've done, especially with hooks). I've seen plenty of laptops damaged by idiots who took them apart. To the point I already knew by 99% that I will need to replace flex cables before taking them apart. Just by knowing the fact someone have already poked inside.

I worked for BMW for almost 10 years, I'm pretty sure I'm infinitely more qualified to talk about how vehicles are repaired than you are. Whatever a block is we certainly did take them apart when necessary because there was nothing we didn't do.