Author Topic: HDO6000  (Read 3398 times)

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Offline branadic

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HDO6000
« on: February 16, 2013, 06:53:15 AM »
Hi guys,

anyone out there who tested a DSO of the LeCroy HD6000 series ,yet?
I`m happy to have a HDO6054 test device til monday and I can tell you, it`s an amazing powerful device. Real 12bit vertical resolution, with weighted oversampling methodes up to 3bits more. Incredible math and measurement functions, many optical goodies.
Up to now I thought my TDS5104B is a good one, but this guy is awesome. Nearly the full adc range is visible on the screen, while at the Tek only 200incr. per 8divs are shown on the screen and the other 2 divisions (56incr.) are hidden. Thanks to the var. gain input stage, which is more precise adjustable compared to the Tek, signals can be extended to the full adc scale.

The signals are crystal clear as they promote on their website, tested a few signals from my function generators.

With the 250Mpt. memory I`m able to sample 10ms/div with the full sample rate of 2.5GSps, which results in nearly 7GB files per channel (time + amplitude). After the Embedded World I will test a device of the Agilent 9000 series, but I fear I will be disappointed, because it`s one of these 8bit scopes with 16x oversampling to get this 12bits.
Contrary to Agilent all options need hardware modifications, they are not installed and activated by a code, I like that.
The big 250Mpt./Ch memory is about 8805€ at LeCroy, Agilent wants incredible 20k€ for the same memory size. Wtf?

The device I have right now is about 25605€, that`s a new care, but it`s worth every single €. This sucker is for sure the connection of analog and digital scope in one device.

branadic

Offline Smokey

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2013, 07:44:41 AM »
Only 25605€ (34,254USD)?????  I'll take two!!!

Seriously though, that sounds like a beast!  It looks cool too, all black.
http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopemodel.aspx?modelid=7169

I found this comparison to the Agilent9000 from the Agilent point of view.  It's always interesting to see how each company pushes the features they have the advantage in as the most important.  I love the one lonely missing "History mode playback" feature in the Agilent column.
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-1663EN.pdf

There should be a "New Toys At Work" sub-forum in the test-equipment section.

Offline Hydrawerk

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2013, 09:36:52 AM »
Did you measure the waveform capture rate of HDO6000?
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Offline branadic

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2013, 11:02:11 PM »
Only 25605€ (34,254USD)?????  I'll take two!!!

Seriously though, that sounds like a beast!  It looks cool too, all black.
http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopemodel.aspx?modelid=7169

I found this comparison to the Agilent9000 from the Agilent point of view.  It's always interesting to see how each company pushes the features they have the advantage in as the most important.  I love the one lonely missing "History mode playback" feature in the Agilent column.
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-1663EN.pdf

There should be a "New Toys At Work" sub-forum in the test-equipment section.


Yes, very interesting review and optimistic in many points:

8bit, up to 12bit at Agilent 9000H-Series / 12bit, up to 15bit at HDO4000 and 6000 --> red cross for Agilent

SSD available as option at Agilent / standard at Le Croy --> red cross for Agilent

The update rate at this specific setting is some kind of eyewash, I thought I found that the HDO6000 has an update rate of up to 1.25 million wfm/s.

Did you measure the waveform capture rate of HDO6000?


No, it is of less interest for me, because my field of action is not signal integrity measurement, but analog and mixed signal ciruit developement. What I need is big memory, high resolution of my signals and powerful math.

Offline free_electron

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 02:02:07 AM »
15 bit for the lecrap ? Imterpolated you mean...  That thing only has a 12 bit convertor just like the agilent.

The agilent is a clear winner. For several reasons.
-Faster sampling
-Higher bandwidth
-More memory
-Larger display ( a machine in this category needs that. It's high resolution, but the display is so small you can't see it. ... Duh! Anyone know what the display res is ? Where's the scopes with retina displays. . Come on , a 500$ tablet has a more-than-hd display and 20k$ scopes are still stuck in 800x600 land?
-Faster refresh rate
-Mixed signal ! All modern systems are mixed signal. I want to keep my 4 analog signals to poke around and use the digitals for trigger. Typical example : measure the settling time of a programmable voltage regulator chip. The chip uses i2c or spi as interface. You hook up the digital inputs , flick on the packet decoder tell the scope to look for a packet that modifies the voltage dac and trigger on the acknowledge of that packet . I can now directly see  when the voltage change command begins executing and look at what the regulator does and how long it takes.
-precision current probes. I played with the new agilent current probe. It is fenomenal. Lecroy is still stuck with the rebadged hioki kludges that need to clamp around cables ( good luck sensing the current consumption of a chip... You need to cut traces on the board and solder a bodge wire..) and it still cannot show you a high dynamic range signal. For example the current drawn by the pa in a cell phone.. It goes from microamps to amps and back. The agilent probe has no problem with that at all.
The scope is 1 thing... Probes is another... Lecroy is lacking on those.

Now, in all fairness, i must say that it looks like there is a new wind blowing at lecroy since they were bought by teledyne. I was at Devcon a couple of weeks ago and talking to the agilent guys. One guy from lecroy was hanging around and i jokingly 'hissed'at him. We started talking and i let loose about all my frustrations i have had with lecroy scopes over the years ( i have multiple (sda, 7000 series, 7200 series, dda, wavesurfer, wavemaster, 7zi ) lecroy machines that span 9 years, and they all have given me grief and trouble) .

A day after devcon i got an email from that chap. He was the product director and wanted me to write down all the misery i have had over the years. Because 'this should not be'...

It was a long email with a 12 page attachment of screenshots where the lecroys mess up. From cursors dissapearing, showing the wrong data in the zoom trace ( you highlight an area on the main trace and the xoom trace shows you data from somewhere else ), machines bluescreening if you turn the timebase knob too fast, machines freezing in roll mode, endless 'calibrating' cycles...

He seemed genuinely interested in the problems we encountered. We'll see.
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Offline T4P

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 02:23:48 AM »
And now a 600$ 5" phone has Full HD resolution  :P (HTC Butterfly)
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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 03:16:16 AM »
-precision current probes. I played with the new agilent current probe. It is fenomenal. Lecroy is still stuck with the rebadged hioki kludges that need to clamp around cables ( good luck sensing the current consumption of a chip... You need to cut traces on the board and solder a bodge wire..) and it still cannot show you a high dynamic range signal.
I believe the new Agilent high-sensitivity current probe include a sense resistor and a differential amplifier. How is inserting a sense resistor in the circuit less invasive than a loop of wire? Both will require cutting traces or modifying the PCB design, and both will introduce extra impedance in the circuit that may change its operation.

If you want bandwidth beyond a few MHz, then Agilent is also happy to sell you some Hioki probes. Last time I checked there were three manufacturers of wide-bandwidth AC-DC current probes, and Agilent wasn't one of them. They were Tektronix (who own the original now expired patent), Hioki and a third manufacturer (LEM?).

Offline branadic

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 05:08:09 AM »
15 bit for the lecrap ? Imterpolated you mean...  That thing only has a 12 bit convertor just like the agilent.


Do you really believe in this words?
The Agilent is just an 8bit scope with 16 times oversampling to get the 12bit (just take a look in the datasheet, they don't hide this fact but they don't  solicit it directly), while the LeCroy has a real 12bit ADC and with oversampling technics up to 15bit are available.

As far as I remember LeCroy is the one with the longer experience in DSOs, compared to Agilent. Agilent was once HP also known as "High Prices" and since they become Agilent they produced nothing really revolutionary. Can you show me an example for the opposite?

My opinion is that Agilent lags LeCroy and not reverse. Agilent can do everthing but nothing right.

By the way: LeCroy wasn't bought, they consolidated with Teledyne, that's a small big difference.

HDP6000:

DC Gain Accuracy (Gain Component of DC Accuracy): ±(0.5%) F.S, offset at 0 V

DC Vertical Offset Accuracy ±(1.0% of offset value + 0.5%FS + 0.02% of max offset + 1mV)

Agilent 9000:

DC gain accuracy (2,3): ±2% of full scale at full resolution on channel scale ±5 °C from cal temp
(typically < 1% at cal temp)

2. Vertical resolution for 12 bits = 0.024% of full scale.
3. 50? input: Full scale is defined as 8 vertical divisions. Magnification is used below 10mV/div. The major scale settings are 5 mV, 10 mV, 20 mV, 50 mV, 100 mV, 200 mV, 500 mV, 1 V.
1M? input: Full scale is defined as 8 vertical divisions. Magnification is used below 5mV/div, full-scale is defined as 40 mV. The major scale settings are 5 mV, 10 mV, 20 mV,
50 mV, 100 mV, 200 mV, 500 mV, 1 V,2 V, 5 V

Offset accuracy (3): ±(1.25% of channel offset + 1% of full scale + 1 mV)

3. 50? input: Full scale is defined as 8 vertical divisions. The major scale settings are 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50 mV, 100 mV, 200 mV, 500 mV, 1V.
1M? input: Full scale is defined as 8 vertical divisions. The major scale settings are 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50 mV, 100 mV, 200 mV, 5 00mV, 1V, 2V, 5V.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 05:23:26 AM by branadic »

Offline T4P

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 05:27:19 AM »
You come across more of a lecroy fanboy than anything else
Agilent is doing everything right and lecrap is doing everything wrong now.
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Offline branadic

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 08:01:06 AM »
You come across more of a lecroy fanboy than anything else
Agilent is doing everything right and lecrap is doing everything wrong now.

Such a statement and defamation shows me that you have no idea of the matter, the company name is LeCroy! I presented facts, no sympathy. The gain accuracy shows, that Agilents "up to 12bit DSO" has nothing to do with a real 12bit one. But if you prefer estimated than real measured values, no problem.
Seems like some of you guys here are fanboys of Agilents stuff, because they support this board with test devices?
Maybe Dave can review the HDO6054 and compare it to the DSO9054H, than we can face the facts of two scopes of the same class, 4-channel, 500MHz, 2.5GS.

As I already said, I'll have the DSO9054H soon, but I was shown the MSO7000 series last year and it wasn't much stronger compared to my TDS5104B. I can do without logic analyzer functionallity implemented to a DSO and beyond that with integrated function generators, I prefer professional bench equipement for that.

Offline Marco

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 09:08:16 AM »
How many ADC bits make sense BTW? They spec the input amplifier at 55 dB SNR ... so that's already 2 bits buried in noise ignoring the probe (presumably only at 1 GHz, with more effective bits available when you turn on the bandwidth limiters). How many bits remain when including a probe with reasonable impedance? (Active or high impedance attenuator with coax.)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:13:24 AM by Marco »

Offline branadic

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2013, 11:24:56 AM »
I think the 55dB SNR are representative for the smallest vertical resolution (maximum gain) and the maximum bandwidth they specify on this series (1GHz). For the higher FS ranges and lower bandwidths this value will increase.
If you for example take a look in the datasheet of the LMH6518 you find a given SNR of 44dB for the range 8m-24mV FS but 53.4dB for 80m-80V FS with a 200MHz filter and can maybe follow my argument.

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2013, 08:02:43 PM »
As far as I remember LeCroy is the one with the longer experience in DSOs, compared to Agilent. Agilent was once HP also known as "High Prices" and since they become Agilent they produced nothing really revolutionary. Can you show me an example for the opposite?

My opinion is that Agilent lags LeCroy and not reverse. Agilent can do everthing but nothing right.

I think you are getting a bit into fanboi territory here. HP T&M had a very long history in making digital scopes before they became Agilent. As for Agilent not producing anything revolutionary, this can be said about most manufacturers as especially in test equipment product development is generally more evolutionary than revolutionary. And yes, Agilent does everything but saying they do nothing right is just plain silly and ignores the reality which is that Agilent now (especially after Tek's now less than exciting product offerings in many areas) simply is the gold standard in many labs and industries where you rarely see anything made by LeCroy.

And quite frankly, I think it's fair to say that LeCroy doesn't do everything right, too. They messed up big time with their low end scopes (WaveAce) and signal generators (WaveStation) which at the end of the day is just relabelled China crap with bug-ridden firmware, while Agilent in this segment offers much better and more mature products.

At the end of the day, both companies have products that are great and some that aren't or that aren't great for every task. That's why one should choose test equipment on how good it performs in the required role and not by the manufacturer label on the front panel.

Quote
By the way: LeCroy wasn't bought, they consolidated with Teledyne, that's a small big difference.

No, they didn't. LeCroy was bought by Teledyne, plain and simple. The "LeCroy" name was kept simply because it's an established name in the industry. It's the same Danaher did with Tektronix, with the only difference that Tek got a shedload of MBAs and micromanagement while LeCroy apparently kept a lot of their freedoms inside Teledyne.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 08:09:20 PM by Wuerstchenhund »

Offline branadic

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2013, 09:34:10 PM »
This is for sure a fanboy territory here, because some guys here love the chineese low cost DSOs  so much and never had a real scope at hand so that they think this is state of the art. We are talking about professional equipment and this market is very clear (Tektronix, LeCroy, Agilent, R&S)

For me Agilent and HP are two different pairs of shoes, HP produced nice test equipment even if this stuff was very expencive and big. For me Agilent lost its face in the dirty war with Tektronix. Now that Tek is nearly out of the race Agilent starts another dirty war with LeCroy. Dirty because of the fact that they sale what they don't have and I dismiss a company that compares apples with oranges just to look good.  It's no shame to admit they doen't have 12bit resolution.
Poor Agilent, very poor.
I'm awaiting the day Agilent starts fighting against R&S.

Quote
No, they didn't. LeCroy was bought by Teledyne, plain and simple.

Where did you get this info from? My info is directly from LeCroy, they consolidated even if Teledyne is ten times bigger LeCroy was before. This is why the equipement is labled Teledyne LeCroy.

Offline T4P

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Re: HDO6000
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2013, 02:21:36 AM »
Are you serious? free_electron has a lab full of agilents and none of the "chinese low cost DSOs" and has used thousands of LeCraps (I myself, included) but agilent never proves him wrong
Could you go wrong with a Agilent? Certainly not. Not when you have lecroys that hang up on everything you do (And i'm not even talking about the Siglent SDS/ Lecroy WaveAce)

And you are still fighting about bit resolution. What's the point of 12-bit when the noise floor is lost on the 2-4 final bits on a 12bit ADC on low-level signals which is probably intended? Because when it comes to 1GHz+ you probably dont have a lot of voltage because that's how you gain speed
Why can USB be that fast? It's based on LVDS which is pretty low as far as i know
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