Heads Up : Cheap Multimeter : Lidl UK (08/02/18)

[Fungus]

I wonder how many times a product has been certified, then the design changes but the company still uses the old cert.

On the cert it says:

"TÜV Rheinland performs checks to maintain the certification. Tests are carried out to ascertain whether the manufactured product still conforms to the tested type or whether changes have been made. Such inspections, which usually take place on an annual basis, also include a control of the quality system as well as the final examination. The aim is to determine whether mass production can ensure the safety requirements for the product."

The award of the GS mark is governed by the Product Safety Act and limited to a maximum of five years. It expires automatically if there is any change to the tested product.

From Fungus's review, I have know idea if the fuses were even certified or not.

I'm not sure how I could test that. The markings on them for the rated voltage were present and correct. Blowing them using 230V mains wouldn't give any real safety information.

Why wouldn't they be the correct fuses? The cert says there's a large organization grabbing meters directly off the production line and testing them.

[joeqsmith]

I wonder how many times a product has been certified, then the design changes but the company still uses the old cert.

On the cert it says:

"TÜV Rheinland performs checks to maintain the certification. Tests are carried out to ascertain whether the manufactured product still conforms to the tested type or whether changes have been made. Such inspections, which usually take place on an annual basis, also include a control of the quality system as well as the final examination. The aim is to determine whether mass production can ensure the safety requirements for the product."

The award of the GS mark is governed by the Product Safety Act and limited to a maximum of five years. It expires automatically if there is any change to the tested product.

From Fungus's review, I have know idea if the fuses were even certified or not.

I'm not sure how I could test that. The markings on them for the rated voltage were present and correct. Blowing them using 230V mains wouldn't give any real safety information.

Why wouldn't they be the correct fuses? The cert says there's a large organization grabbing meters directly off the production line and testing them.

As I mentioned, the safety fuses are independently certified just like the meter.  As I understand it, you could use an fuse that has not been certified but how they would test it, I am not sure (that was the section I had included previously).    I expect this is why the reputable brand meters always use certified fuses.   Sorry, but I have damaged most of the junk fuses making demo videos so I don't have a lot of examples.

Fuse1, top to bottom is a SIBA, ASTM from Dave, , and a fuse marked SIBA.

Fuse 2 we can clearly see the first two have some sort of cert mark.  The last fuse is the counterfeit SIBA.  It's chewed up from pulling it apart when I made the videos but they were at least good enough not to have any cert markings on it.   The 4th fuse has no markings beyond a voltage and current.

Fuse 3 is a close up of the 3rd fuse, actually a 1000V part made my Little Fuse.   

In some cases, we can lookup the datasheets for the fuses to find out more about them.   In the case of Dave's fuses, we now know that there are a few different data sheets floating around so make sure you get the correct one if you look it up.

I wonder how much checking really happens.  Would an inspector even know what to look for?  I am not so sure.   Maybe they just buy them lunch and move on.  It's also a bit strange that they would allow that Gossen to be approved when something as simple as the magnetic hanger can cause it to read low voltages in presence of high voltages.  Consider that EMC report I had attached some time ago about the ESD testing.  To me, these things just water down the usefulness of the standards.    Go to TUVs website, it looks to me like a bunch of marketing people throwing a party.   

In your video, I can't tell if they are a certified safety fuse or not.  You could easily check it for any markings.  Maybe see if you can find the datasheet for it.

I am limited in what I can do with my own testing.  The highest energy transients I can produce are around 4-600 joules and I am not even close to a KA, let alone 10KA.   Still even with these low levels, it's fairly easy to see why something sold for CAT III, this stuff becomes important.

https://youtu.be/xLDok9Sm07Q?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQAk2Q57Obdy-2yVNF-m_huu

[Fungus]

In your video, I can't tell if they are a certified safety fuse or not.  You could easily check it for any markings.  Maybe see if you can find the datasheet for it.

OK, I see what you mean.

The other end of the fuse has an Underwriters Laboratory logo stamped on it.



The logo is followed by the letters 5HF. If they're following the code then H=high breaking capacity, F=fast blow.

https://www.swe-check.com.au/pages/learn_fuse_markings.php

(edited because the "H" part was unclear, "H'"doesn't specify an actual current value other than "high")


Basically: This meter is certified all the way. 

[Monkeh]

Agreed, but I never said that the consumer unit could handle it, I said that circuit had to be designed such that a fault of that magnitude occurring at the CU must be cleared without taking out the service cutout fuse. This was because they were experiencing a lot of call outs to replace their service fuses so they wanted designers to build in a consumer replaceable sacrifice fuse that would descrimanate with the service fuse only blowing if the fault exceeded the 16KA declared value.

I hope that this draws a line on this issue as it actually detracts from the original thread IMHO and we are both pretty much on the same page in reality.

We're really not on the same page. There are no consumer replacable fuses - if you happen to be on a domestic supply with such a high PFC and the MCB doesn't manage to clear the fault, the service fuse is blowing. There's not going to be any discrimination - the specified BS1361 fuse is the very type they fit. The 16kA 'rating' is dependent on the service fuse.

[joeqsmith]

Thank you for taking the time to check this further.   

I have never seen a requirement for what the break current requirement is for handhelds beyond the sections I posted.  The meters seem to be all over the place.   10KA is common for the low current (500mA and lower) fuses but the 10A and up fuses seem to be 20-30KA, 1000V ACDC rated.   The ones Dave is offering have a 30KA interrupt current.   

Any idea who makes them so we could pull a data sheet?   I would expect the smaller fuses like this to be 10KA at best for both AC and DC.  The markings are a good start but don't tell the whole story.  In the following picture, there are five fuses.  The four in the case are marked CSA, UL and CE but are not rated to break 10KA at 1KVAC and DC like the other part. 

[Fungus]

Thank you for taking the time to check this further.   

Any idea who makes them so we could pull a data sheet?

There's nothing at all on the fuse body. The only other mark on the fuse caps is a plain capital H inside a circle.

The manual simply says "replace with fuse of similar type".

[joeqsmith]

Nothing on the face?  I've seen them marked there as well.     Gets a little more difficult.  Really, you should be able to pull the report for your fuses just like you would the meter.  Seems like to have it certified, they would have needed these reports to show the fuse was certified or they would have had to test it, somehow..  I want to see that test! 

[Fungus]

Nothing on the face?

Nope.

Seems like to have it certified, they would have needed these reports to show the fuse was certified or they would have had to test it, somehow..  I want to see that test!

Apparently they kept that info between themselves and TUV.

[markce]

Ok, browsed the Certipedia of TUV Rheinland for more info. The certificate for the Lidl PDM 300 B1 is "GS-Mark Approval".
So what other meters have this certificate?
A lot, for example the well known Uni-trend Technology(China) Limited UT61A/B/C/D/E (all on one certificate) with certificate number 50321058.

[rsjsouza]

Nothing on the face?

Nope.

Seems like to have it certified, they would have needed these reports to show the fuse was certified or they would have had to test it, somehow..  I want to see that test!

Apparently they kept that info between themselves and TUV.

I am almost 100% sure the test report is not public but, at the port of entry, an authority may request a copy to the freight forwarder or import agent, which in turn requests this from the manufacturer.

[rsjsouza]

Ok, browsed the Certipedia of TUV Rheinland for more info. The certificate for the Lidl PDM 300 B1 is "GS-Mark Approval".
So what other meters have this certificate?
A lot, for example the well known Uni-trend Technology(China) Limited UT61A/B/C/D/E (all on one certificate) with certificate number 50321058.

Interesting, as I don't recall seeing UT61s other than the "E" variant with such marks. Perhaps others may have seen them in the wild.

[bd139]

There's an EU spec UT61E available which has different protection circuits. Costs a lot more. Conrad in EU and Rapid in UK sell them.

Edit: turns out they don't sell them any more. Discontinued!

[Gromitt]

Ok, browsed the Certipedia of TUV Rheinland for more info. The certificate for the Lidl PDM 300 B1 is "GS-Mark Approval".
So what other meters have this certificate?
A lot, for example the well known Uni-trend Technology(China) Limited UT61A/B/C/D/E (all on one certificate) with certificate number 50321058.

Interesting, as I don't recall seeing UT61s other than the "E" variant with such marks. Perhaps others may have seen them in the wild.

I have a UT61D with GS and TÜV.

https://www.kjell.com/se/sortiment/el-verktyg/matinstrument/multimetrar/uni-t-ut61d-multimeter-p48273

[Fungus]

I am almost 100% sure the test report is not public but, at the port of entry, an authority may request a copy to the freight forwarder or import agent, which in turn requests this from the manufacturer.

I'm not 100% sure where the LIDL meter is manufactured, there's no definite "made in XXXX" marking on it.

In the manual it says manufactured by Targa GmBH but the targa.de website is a bit weird. A lot of hippy newage feelgood stuff and a shop where you can buy spares for your LIDL electronic gadgets.

I'm not complaining about LIDL providing spares, that's a really good thing, but they don't seem like manufacturers.

Looks like we're getting more tools next week but not the disk sanders. 

[Fungus]

I have a UT61D with GS and TÜV.

https://www.kjell.com/se/sortiment/el-verktyg/matinstrument/multimetrar/uni-t-ut61d-multimeter-p48273

There's some photo comparisons of the internals happening in the other thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-ut61e-multimeter-teardown-photos/msg1437056/#msg1437056

[markce]

I'm not 100% sure where the LIDL meter is manufactured

The PCB is marked All-Sun which is a Chinese manufacturer of a large collection of multimeters. Apparently does specials for customers, same as Mastech. The TUV certificate is issued by TUV Rheinland, Shenzhen.
Targa Gmbh is a German registered company located in Soest, Germany. It has an office in Shenzhen.

[Candid]

Targa GmbH only seemes to be a company that labels products and imports them to Germany in big quantities for placing them at Lidl, Aldi and so on. And if you want to do this the imported products need to fulfill local/european law. So they make contracts with producers of relevant products that include conditions of local seal of approvals. The big players cannot go around this, when you order directly as privat person from chines sellers at A*iexpress and so on you can get around this (and risk your life from time to time with some products).

[Fungus]

I made a followup Q&A video:


TLDR version:

a) How to look up a safety certificate (hi, bitwelder)
b) Markings on fuses (hi, joe)
c) A look at input jack strength based on a Youtube comment
d) Who makes it? (All-Sun, China)

[bitwelder]

This week the meter is available in LIDL Finland:

[TuxKey]

have to say thanks for your review..
just ordered this on the lidl shop.
In your review you did say that the probes were not that good.. that one could not remove the protection caps to do precision work on electronics (sorry just a noob)
was thinking of getting these from banggood..
https://www.banggood.com/P1300A-10-in-1-Super-Multimeter-Probe-Replaceable-Probe-Clamp-Multi-Meter-Test-Lead-kits-p-1136463.html?rmmds=mywishlist&cur_warehouse=CN

there are cheaper ones on there for $2,66 and this one is $6,66 normal price $8,52 but the description says silicone wire.
and the reviews point towards the same..
So i think i'm getting these in a few days ...only question is will they fit.

[Fungus]

have to say thanks for your review..
just ordered this on the lidl shop.
In your review you did say that the probes were not that good.. that one could not remove the protection caps to do precision work on electronics (sorry just a noob)

The leads are definitely a weak point of the meter. The tip covers make it difficult to measure components that aren't soldered down.

So i think i'm getting these in a few days ...only question is will they fit.

I don't think you'll have any problems with the fit. The meter accepts some of my more "difficult" leads, no problem

I'm not usually a fan of modular leads for daily use as they can come unscrewed as you use them but those have plenty of good reviews. Let us know how you get on.

[TuxKey]

good one about the modular leads i did find these that seem of equal to perhaps even better quality..
https://www.banggood.com/P1300A-10-in-1-Super-Multimeter-Probe-Replaceable-Probe-Clamp-Multi-Meter-Test-Lead-kits-p-1136463.html?rmmds=mywishlist&cur_warehouse=CN

basically same price but without all the doodads hahahah
they even mention a CE cert.. i watched your 2e update vid will see if i can find a cert number ..

this is what one reviewer had to say: (translation from french)
Great ! high quality touch points for multimeters or others. Removable cap on the terminals on the meter side and on the tips leaving only the end (3mm) or all the tip protruding by removing them. Strong point of these cables, the length of 120 cm (except points of touch) and especially REAL SILICONE cables 18 awg hypers-flexible and resistant to 150 °, in short, the best cables that I have found until now,

Thanks for your help..appreciate it.

[Specmaster]

good one about the modular leads i did find these that seem of equal to perhaps even better quality..
https://www.banggood.com/P1300A-10-in-1-Super-Multimeter-Probe-Replaceable-Probe-Clamp-Multi-Meter-Test-Lead-kits-p-1136463.html?rmmds=mywishlist&cur_warehouse=CN

basically same price but without all the doodads hahahah
they even mention a CE cert.. i watched your 2e update vid will see if i can find a cert number ..

this is what one reviewer had to say: (translation from french)
Great ! high quality touch points for multimeters or others. Removable cap on the terminals on the meter side and on the tips leaving only the end (3mm) or all the tip protruding by removing them. Strong point of these cables, the length of 120 cm (except points of touch) and especially REAL SILICONE cables 18 awg hypers-flexible and resistant to 150 °, in short, the best cables that I have found until now,

Thanks for your help..appreciate it.

Those modular leads are perfectly fine I have them as well and the tips can be unscrewed and very sharp points screwed to pierce cables to aid measurements.

From mobile device so predictive text might have struck again [emoji83]

[001]

Folks! Tell me please
Why You interested in 40 years old design rated $20 now? I have no idea 
It is actually looks like a crap $2 ICL7106-based meter in big red case

 it is time Now  for DTM0660-based 6000-counts autorange meters for same $20 and build quality like an8002 etc.

[Specmaster]

Folks! Tell me please
Why You interested in 40 years old design rated $20 now? 
Now is time of DTM0660-based 6000-counts autorange meters for same $20 and build quality

The meters you refer to are certified by by any world class standards so while they will work OK, they are NOT rated for short-circuit protection or high voltage protection.

From mobile device so predictive text might have struck again [emoji83]