Poll

Which meter should be ran to celebrate 2000 subscribers?

Dave's new 121GW
58 (55.8%)
Gossen Metrawatt (you pick)
14 (13.5%)
HIOKI DT4282
6 (5.8%)
Anything but UNI-T (you pick)
1 (1%)
Anything made by UNI-T (you pick)
7 (6.7%)
I think the Fluke 87V is really a good meter and want to see if a third one would be better
10 (9.6%)
This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
8 (7.7%)

Total Members Voted: 103

Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 427390 times)

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2350 on: January 25, 2018, 01:33:17 am »
$1 in parts and $10 million in engineering later ... :-DD
:-DD  :-+
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2351 on: January 25, 2018, 04:26:03 am »
$1 in parts and $10 million in engineering later ... :-DD
Just finished watching the video.  :popcorn:
Well those transistors are not cheap, maybe a little more then $1 for parts.
But the time spent in testing and engineering, the custom build generators, home made high voltage probe on the oscilloscope.
Hats off to you sir,  :clap: Truly a great accomplishment, and great work.

So what’s the lesson learned from this. Do they need to put better parts that are equal to or of higher value in front of the PTC’s and what they are rated for? So if the PTC is rated for X then why put transistors that can only handle C in front of them?
This kind of sounds like common sense now when I ask it like that. I’m not trying to over simplify it, but it might sound like that and I couldn’t figure another way to ask the questions.

That’s one impressive meter for sure, especially with the “Joe Touch” mod. Maybe you should start award levels now? The highest awarded would be to meet or exceed your modified meter testing results, but being stock with no mods or updated parts.

Questions, maybe a dumb one but I’ll ask it anyway.
First, how much can your high voltage scope probe handle, will you need to make a new one if meters start to handle more power then 15KV?

I recently tore down a dead USB QC capable power supply for a Lanova Yoga laptop and noticed spark gaps between the common mode choke on the AC input side. So I was wondering, what if they had still used the cheaper transitors but added some spark gaps on the PCB before them with proper insulation? Would or could this result in the same affect as the higher end transitors? Or am I thinking crazy thoughts?

Side Note: Great reference about USB switch mode power supplies. I found this page full of good information. Since I never repaired a USB power supply (or any power supply) I went searching and found this page to be full of good info:http://lygte-info.dk/info/SMPS%20workings%20UK.html

Thanks again for all the hard work, great testing and time spent editing and doing these videos.
Maybe now it’s time to take a break.  :phew:
Scott
Please be sure to check out my YouTube channel and subscribe if you like the videos. http://www.youtube.com/c/GadgetReviewVideos

By people subscribing and giving thumbs up I know what I am doing is still wanted and adding value, then will continue to release new videos. Thank you for your support.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2352 on: January 25, 2018, 04:39:20 am »
So what’s the lesson learned from this. Do they need to put better parts...

The CAT rating for this meter goes up to 8000 volt transients, the parts currently in the meter meet those requirements (presumably - I know Joe's tests aren't the same as a real CAT rating test) so there's no requirement to replace them.

Joe's just showing off by making it into a 12kV+ meter.  :popcorn:

(and learning...)
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2353 on: January 25, 2018, 04:44:39 am »
Joe's just showing off by making it into a 12kV+ meter.  :popcorn:

(and learning...)
Always learning.... 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2354 on: January 25, 2018, 05:15:36 am »
$1 in parts and $10 million in engineering later ... :-DD
Just finished watching the video.  :popcorn:
Well those transistors are not cheap, maybe a little more then $1 for parts.

So what’s the lesson learned from this. Do they need to put better parts that are equal to or of higher value in front of the PTC’s and what they are rated for? So if the PTC is rated for X then why put transistors that can only handle C in front of them?

That’s one impressive meter for sure, especially with the “Joe Touch” mod. Maybe you should start award levels now? The highest awarded would be to meet or exceed your modified meter testing results, but being stock with no mods or updated parts.

Questions, maybe a dumb one but I’ll ask it anyway.
First, how much can your high voltage scope probe handle, will you need to make a new one if meters start to handle more power then 15KV?

....
Thanks again for all the hard work, great testing and time spent editing and doing these videos.
Maybe now it’s time to take a break.  :phew:

As stated, my cost was under $1 w/ tax.

PTCs are before the transistors, not after.   Meters will be different.  If we are talking about this one specifically, you have the PTC in series with the two resistors.  Again, the PTC is not going to do much of anything beyond act as a resistor in the HV transient tests.  If in resistance mode for example, we have the drop of the clamp.  Basically nothing.  Then you need to consider the transient.  It's not a matter of just looking at the voltages present.  I know I get a fair number of MOT and DC comments from people but the reality is this is not at all what we are looking at. 

I doubt when a company like Brymen designs a meter they are thinking we need to meet the JQS transient tests and survive.  They will design around what ever standards they want to meet and use what ever internal best practices they have come up with.  From what I have seen, companies all follow the same basic concepts.  It's all fairly well understood.  I can't understand why a brand new meter like the 121GW for example would not be very robust.  If you have watched some of my videos, it's not a lot of added cost. 

I have a playlist for the home made HV probes, linked below.  I called it 40KV but I've ran tests far above that to make sure it was not going to be a problem.  You mention power rather than voltage.  I assume a mistake in terms but If you watch the videos, I do talk about the life of the parts based on how hard you run them.   It may be shorter than you think.   

Break??  lol.  I make the videos for the fun of it.  I don't ask for handouts and rarely accept meters to run.  If I need a break, that means I have lost interest and it's no longer fun.  When that time comes, I will just stop making them.  Growing the channel and making money was never part of it.   

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZSS2ajxhiQCAQ6gIp6s-WoKiIEb1gHPD
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline 3db

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2355 on: January 28, 2018, 09:18:44 am »
Nice one Joe.
Thanks for the time and effort.
3DB  ;D
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2356 on: February 03, 2018, 11:29:53 pm »
Oh, no! You know now that you are mandated by TEA law to amend your warning statements, right?  "Warning: multimeters AND probes were harmed in the making of this video. TEA viewer discretion is advised."

I remember very well the HV probe discussion as I was interested in making one as well and even got the parts, etc. One thing lead to another and i still didn't find the time to finish this project...  :palm:

Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2357 on: February 04, 2018, 11:15:37 am »
Oh, no! You know now that you are mandated by TEA law to amend your warning statements, right?  "Warning: multimeters AND probes were harmed in the making of this video. TEA viewer discretion is advised."

I remember very well the HV probe discussion as I was interested in making one as well and even got the parts, etc. One thing lead to another and i still didn't find the time to finish this project...  :palm:

As a hobbyist, I enjoy designing and building projects like this and have respect for anyone who attempts them.   Making a DC probe is one thing but add over 10KV to the mix and top it off with AC responses in the MHz, it turns into several hours of play time. 

We are back in business.


 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2358 on: February 16, 2018, 11:19:00 am »
With the HV probe repaired and checked out, it's time to look at another meter.    I offered to let people pick the meter at 2000 subscribers and everyone wanted to see the 121GW.  Sadly the meter is still not available.   But I can offer to run another Fluke 87V which was peoples third pick after the Gossen.

We know the 87V I looked at could not come close to the performance of any of the the Chinese made Flukes I have looked.   I was asked about the revision of the meter I last ran and it was not the most recent.    What  I am thinking is to buy a brand new one, directly from Fluke and repeat all of the transient tests.  Maybe run a temperature sweep on it. 

I am not so sure where the 87V is made anymore.  The US laws on what it means to be made in the USA are pretty relaxed.  I would have to see the assembly line, here in the USA with this meter being made to know what it means anymore.    Danaher always seems to be listed in the top companies for unrepatriated profits.  It is what it is.   If China is doing the majority of the work now, it may prove to be a more robust meter.    Even that its a later design that the last one I looked at, maybe they improved it. 

The Fluke 17B+ is still the best performer from my life cycle testing.  I have been wanting to run another Fluke and it seems only fitting that the king pin of Fluke, the meter that all others are ranked against, gets a shot at that as well.   Not a 50,000 half stroke test , but the full rotation for 50K cycles that all of the other meters have been tested to.     

It may seem I have an axe to grind with Fluke.  I don't.  I am more than willing to give a brand new one a fair shake and let the data once again stand on it's own.   

So stay tuned.... 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2359 on: February 16, 2018, 12:02:00 pm »
Looking forward to it, Joe. I don't think you have any axes to grind. Even if you did, it ends up generating interesting videos. So, onward with the tests.
You don't acquire TEA. It acquires you.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2360 on: February 16, 2018, 12:50:25 pm »
Joe, I think the 87V was one of the most controversial and surprising results you got. Definitely worth testing it again. IMHO the 121GW should be given a year or so given it is still being polished.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2361 on: February 16, 2018, 01:21:34 pm »
I am pretty sure that the most down voted video I made was the first run of the UT139.  Just looked, oh yea, 43 up, 56 down.  Of course, I repeated that test and the meter failed pretty much where we would have expected but the video ended up with 155 up and 10 down votes.   I guess the UNI-T fans felt I did not give their meter the respect it deserved.   :-DD 

So far, any time I have repeated a test, we get the expected results.  It shows that some of these companies have some level of quality process controls.  In the case of the Fluke however, we know they changed the PCB so it's a little different.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2362 on: February 17, 2018, 01:20:34 am »
You've been so long on Youtube and still believe in measuring things by up/down ratings? I have a bridge to sell to you... :-DD

In a more serious tone, I suspect you are right. Remember my comment about Uni-T snowflake owners?
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/worst-handheld-multi-meter-still-available/msg1337635/#msg1337635
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2363 on: February 17, 2018, 05:00:54 am »
I've been on YT long enough to know it's not just the UNI-T owners. 

I was reading through this old thread about the 87V and change in quality  and may compare an older 87V with the new one.  Maybe there are other differences beyond what was mentioned in the thread. 
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/200/

Read through the FTC documents to see what was involved.  It may help explain some of the changes on how they are marked. 
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2364 on: February 17, 2018, 07:26:31 am »
I was reading through this old thread about the 87V and change in quality  and may compare an older 87V with the new one.  Maybe there are other differences beyond what was mentioned in the thread. 
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-87v-(2017)-lacking-quality-control/200/
Yes, I remember this thread - a good read after you skim through the trollery. There was some indications of production/material differences but IIRC nothing really conclusive towards declining quality.

Read through the FTC documents to see what was involved.  It may help explain some of the changes on how they are marked. 
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard
Thanks for sharing. The FTC does a similar thing as it used to be done in Brazil: assembly must be done in country to be considered "Made in <country>". The issue is that it does not necessarily guarantee the quality of the supply chain, but I personally am pretty sure Fluke would never risk their reputation by skimping on that. 

(off-topic) Did you see this?

« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 02:52:54 am by rsjsouza »
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2365 on: February 17, 2018, 10:33:51 am »
I've been commenting about his 50,000 cycle test in the sticky 121GW discussion tread.  I understand the fixture is working well and they plan to add a resistance measurement to it.   Currently they define a cycle to be what Brymen and I consider a half cycle.   It would be great if they would read the switch resistance for each cycle and run the same number of cycles.   We could then compare the data they collect with the other meters I have looked at.    I don't think the small difference in the speed his is cycling would make much, if any difference. 

I like the Panavise for a few reasons.  I don't plan on testing very many meters and this was zero investment, plus it gets used for other things.  It's a very flexible setup for running various meters.  I can see the meter while it is cycling and note any problems.   

I like using a PC for automating test.  It's easy to get something setup and collecting and post processing the data is a snap.

Looking forward to seeing how their testing comes out. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2366 on: February 18, 2018, 10:11:00 am »
Center stage, a brand new Fluke 87V hot off the production line.  No bias and no excuses.
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2367 on: February 18, 2018, 11:26:23 am »
Woohoo! New toys. :-DMM
You don't acquire TEA. It acquires you.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2368 on: February 19, 2018, 07:39:59 pm »
The Fluke 87V Part I.

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2369 on: February 19, 2018, 07:56:23 pm »
But I can offer to run another Fluke 87V which was peoples third pick after the Gossen.

We know the 87V I looked at could not come close to the performance of any of the the Chinese made Flukes I have looked.   I was asked about the revision of the meter I last ran and it was not the most recent.

Revision, shmevision. If it had a "V" in the name then it's had plenty of time to be revised by Fluke. Anything else is just people looking for excuses.

What  I am thinking is to buy a brand new one, directly from Fluke and repeat all of the transient tests.

Has anybody at Fluke shown any interest in your work?

Send them the latest video of the Brymen - the one where you mention that Brymen send you a box of free meters.  :popcorn:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2370 on: February 19, 2018, 08:10:59 pm »
Intro.   

https://youtu.be/3dxEmi4FGT0?t=817

When the wire touching the edge of the beaker glowed red hot I was waiting for the beaker to crack and water to flood across a big table full of electricity...

« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 08:18:35 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2371 on: February 19, 2018, 08:55:53 pm »
I'm sure the rubber shoe on the Fluke 87 will soon "age" to match the color of the kickstand.

 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2372 on: February 19, 2018, 11:52:18 pm »
Has anybody at Fluke shown any interest in your work?

Send them the latest video of the Brymen - the one where you mention that Brymen send you a box of free meters.  :popcorn:

No they have never expressed any interest. 

I'm sure the rubber shoe on the Fluke 87 will soon "age" to match the color of the kickstand.

I highly doubt it.  I watched the video and it's difficult to see the color difference so I have attached a few pictures of the new and older meter.  I tried to get a closeup of the surface finish of the boot as well.  With them being so interested in the Fluke colors, I would never expect to see this poor of quality on what I understand is their number one selling meter, the one all meters are compared against, not to mention about $400. 

Then again, I am more curious to see why this switch is grinding.   I am interested in seeing the effects of the life cycle test.
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2373 on: February 20, 2018, 12:23:00 am »
Regarding the Fluke's "yellow", just took this recently, its on Sun's light and with manual white balance compensated.

They're just different, at least to my eyes when saw them physically, and also at my monitor at this photo below.

 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #2374 on: February 20, 2018, 04:11:43 am »
"...I'll use the Brymen here to try to troubleshoot the 87V..." Ouch!

I guess the 87V falls into the category of "electrically snowflaked meter"TM.

The mechanical properties (color and silk, mechanical switch) are most probably due to the growing pains of adjusting to a new supplier and/or manufacturing house. 

Regarding Fluke apparently not paying attention to your tests, I have a hunch they are. Just not admitting it.

The change in certifications seems to have removed the listing at UL - I know that a listed product requires long term commitments regarding quality inspections and other details, which is a continuous stream of negative revenue.

This and the cheapening of the product may indicate many things, ranging from the influence of the bean counters at Danaher to the market analysts that are planning a sunset of this product. This theory may be solid if other brand new Fluke models still have listed markings on them, which isolates this model as the "ugly duck". On the other hand, setting up a new manufacturing plant for something that is being phased out looks like a bad move. Without sales figures over time, it is impossible to know for sure.

At any rate, I suspect the market for 20000 count industrial meters may be shrinking - I wouldn't be surprised if electricians are choosing simpler and cheaper meters (even from Fluke), as they rarely require the resolution and only a few of the additional features of an 87V. As for the electronics market, the competition is quite fierce nowadays especially given the liability in this market is severely reduced.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 


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