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Are you interested in seeing more handheld meters tested?

This testing is pointless! Please STOP damaging these meters!
3 (6.7%)
 Yes, I would like to more meters tested.
42 (93.3%)

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Author Topic: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.  (Read 494179 times)

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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3100 on: January 08, 2019, 11:12:32 pm »
Hi sorry to ask again this, but do you tested with NIMH cells and had any different cut-off voltage? The uni-t 204A has different cut-off  for the NIMH batteries and i've tried another brand.

So cutoff:


Code: [Select]
 
Type Brand Cutoff (V)
-----------     -------------- -------------
9V 9F22 Duracell Ultra 7.0
8.4V 9F22 Tronic  220mAh 5.8
8.4V 9F22 fullwat  260mAh 4.7



CurrMin: 1mA
CurrMax : 10mA


I've replaced alkalines for nihm  on the BM235 and unit 139A to check cutoff voltage has well, but i believe had that on the aneng meter and the cut-off was always the same for alkaline or nimh as an example of consistency on battery cutoff for AAA or AA batteries.

EDIT:

Please sorry for posting this results but these were obtained improperly by taking off the batteries out of the load to measure instead of measure with the load. tested with 2x AA NIMH cells with chrismas lights untill they turned off, measure voltage without removing them got 1.187V / 1.169V . When taken out they went right to 1.2V and rising...   :palm: |O dooohnhh

« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 11:37:37 pm by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3101 on: January 08, 2019, 11:52:28 pm »
Hi sorry to ask again this, but do you tested with NIMH cells and had any different cut-off voltage? The uni-t 204A has different cut-off  for the NIMH batteries and i've tried another brand.

So cutoff:


Code: [Select]
 
Type Brand Cutoff (V)
-----------     -------------- -------------
9V 9F22 Duracell Ultra 7.0
8.4V 9F22 Tronic  220mAh 5.8
8.4V 9F22 fullwat  260mAh 4.7



CurrMin: 1mA
CurrMax : 10mA


I've replaced alkalines for nihm  on the BM235 and unit 139A to check cutoff voltage has well, but i believe had that on the aneng meter and the cut-off was always the same for alkaline or nimh as an example of consistency on battery cutoff for AAA or AA batteries.


If you watched the short video and followed the other thread, you can see how I was testing them. 

How did you measure the cutoff?  Details.
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3102 on: January 09, 2019, 01:16:59 am »
Sorry for the lack of the details.  After the unit shutdown due to lack of  "juice" when turned on, a few minutes of use, took the battery out and measured with another meters , the uni-t ut50b and the ut120c, in volts mode. Also let the batteries settle down for 10 minutes and still measured the same voltage, same meters.

This experience is a bit old so didn't follow the same guidelines, because of the issue of draining to quickly the 9V alkaline batteries in Amps with clamp meter... and opt for NIMH batteries since buying alkaline would become expensive alternative



« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 01:22:56 am by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3103 on: January 09, 2019, 02:01:25 am »
Sorry for the lack of the details.  After the unit shutdown due to lack of  "juice" when turned on, a few minutes of use, took the battery out and measured with another meters , the uni-t ut50b and the ut120c, in volts mode. Also let the batteries settle down for 10 minutes and still measured the same voltage, same meters.

This experience is a bit old so didn't follow the same guidelines, because of the issue of draining to quickly the 9V alkaline batteries in Amps with clamp meter... and opt for NIMH batteries since buying alkaline would become expensive alternative

What makes you think that you can pull out the battery with no load, read it's voltage and get ANY meaningful results?   Clue, you can't.   That's pretty basic.    You will need to monitor the voltage with the meter attached and capture when it drops out (if that is your criteria).    If you are trying to characterize various batteries, you  may be better server tuning to the data sheets.   

 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3104 on: January 09, 2019, 02:29:34 am »
Oppsss i thought bad since the meter shuts down after low battery it becomes completly open to the battery. However the 7V cut off from the alkaline battery measured is similar with most of the 9V battery operated uni-t meters for example the uni-t 50b , using the same battery.  It is on the NIMH and this meter that cut-off is different but again not the best procedure to measure voltage with real load. 

What i'm trying to do is if this meter has an issue with alkaline batteries since it behaves weird after a long period of usage , when is awaken.  It doesn't happen with NIMH. Problem is it worth time investing since it is a cheapo meter?
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Offline CDaniel

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3105 on: January 09, 2019, 03:29:50 am »
The shutdown voltage should be the same for a multimeter , measurable with a variable power supply ... But different types of chemistry have different internal resistance when new and as the battery degrade . That "invisible" resistance is in series with the battery and produce voltage drop , so under load the voltages may be the same for all batteries at shutdown , but when pulled out different .

The internal resistance is temperature dependent , so in winter a "dead" multimeter can be revived temporarly if you heat up the battery .
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 03:50:00 am by CDaniel »
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3106 on: January 09, 2019, 04:42:48 am »
Sorry again for pulled down the battery as soon as the meter powered off on its own on low voltage till i couldn't turn on again. Temperature is around 16ºC to 20ºC, humidity up to 70% .

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3107 on: January 09, 2019, 05:13:51 am »
Oppsss i thought bad since the meter shuts down after low battery it becomes completly open to the battery. However the 7V cut off from the alkaline battery measured is similar with most of the 9V battery operated uni-t meters for example the uni-t 50b , using the same battery.  It is on the NIMH and this meter that cut-off is different but again not the best procedure to measure voltage with real load. 

What i'm trying to do is if this meter has an issue with alkaline batteries since it behaves weird after a long period of usage , when is awaken.  It doesn't happen with NIMH. Problem is it worth time investing since it is a cheapo meter?

I assume you own all of them that use 9V batteries and tested them to make a statement like that.   If you watched that short video, you would have seen how low my UT61E ran.  rsjsouza also tested their UT61E and posted the results.  I also posted data for the UT90.   

But again, you keep using the term cutoff and I am not sure of you are talking about an unloaded battery measurement.  So if this is what you are referring to, again its not a useful measurement when you are talking about cutoff.   

Again, from the video and last picture I posted.  I have a 470 ohm resister across the battery and am measuring the current and voltage.  After several hours, I put a 100 ohm in parallel with the 470.  The current jumps up and the voltage eventually reaches a point where it drops off fairly sharp.   I then remove the 100 ohm.   The 470 is still attached.  Note how the voltage recovers from less than 2 volts to roughly 7.   This happens in a very short time. 

It seems Dave make a few videos on it.  There are also some decent physics/chemistry channels that go deeper into the subject of batteries. 

Here you go...

How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3108 on: January 09, 2019, 09:03:19 am »
Hi there

Thanks for the information on the video.

Tested some and  uni-t's before buying one... they would turn off by lack of juice in the battery and the its voltage would be around 7V ( ut58... ut50... ut200 series.. ut33 ) with alkaline battery duracell ultra... The usual was taking off the battery and put another one... and measure the old one . The thing was when i purchased the ut204A i was testing some current measuements with sotck battery and it depleted the battery to nothing in 3 hours... it wouldn't turn on where the uni-t 50b was for 3 weeks  with the same battery .. and let it run till it drained... measured 7V.

So i decided to buy an duracell for the clamp and it didn't last long enought at least when using the clamp for measuring current, same 7V measurement. goes to ut50b lasts 3 weeks.. then decided to try some nimh batteries and they pretty last longer than the alkaline batteries, different voltage when meter shut down due to lack of juice... This clamp meter also has some "features" like it doesn't sleep always after the 15 minutes.

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3109 on: January 09, 2019, 09:17:17 am »
Hi there

Thanks for the information on the video.

Tested some and  uni-t's before buying one... they would turn off by lack of juice in the battery and the its voltage would be around 7V ( ut58... ut50... ut200 series.. ut33 ) with alkaline battery duracell ultra... The usual was taking off the battery and put another one... and measure the old one . The thing was when i purchased the ut204A i was testing some current measuements with sotck battery and it depleted the battery to nothing in 3 hours... it wouldn't turn on where the uni-t 50b was for 3 weeks  with the same battery .. and let it run till it drained... measured 7V.

So i decided to buy an duracell for the clamp and it didn't last long enought at least when using the clamp for measuring current, same 7V measurement. goes to ut50b lasts 3 weeks.. then decided to try some nimh batteries and they pretty last longer than the alkaline batteries, different voltage when meter shut down due to lack of juice... This clamp meter also has some "features" like it doesn't sleep always after the 15 minutes.

I doubt there are many meters out that that use a 9V battery that a cutoff voltage of 7 or higher.  Again, how did you measure them?  Show your test setup and explain the details. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3110 on: January 09, 2019, 11:55:18 am »
Sorry again for pulled down the battery as soon as the meter powered off on its own on low voltage till i couldn't turn on again. Temperature is around 16ºC to 20ºC, humidity up to 70% .



This way... meter powers down, open the case, take out the battery and measure voltage with another meter...Should i measure when it is still on the meter even if is supposelly powered off? I can re-run this with the 204A because it can be turned to always on...and draws 1mA in Vac mode.
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Online IanB

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3111 on: January 09, 2019, 04:28:34 pm »
This way... meter powers down, open the case, take out the battery and measure voltage with another meter...Should i measure when it is still on the meter even if is supposelly powered off? I can re-run this with the 204A because it can be turned to always on...and draws 1mA in Vac mode.

Broadly speaking, you need to know that NiMH fully drained cells "rebound" when you take the load off them. For example, a completely drained NiMH cell may have an open circuit voltage of ~1.2 V. You can put a small load on it and the voltage will drop down to 0.5 V or lower. Take the load off the cell and the voltage will rapidly rise up towards 1.2 V again. The best way to see this happening is to have the cell attached to the voltmeter when you do this experiment.

Alkaline cells don't behave the same way. They have a very small rebound or recovery, but it is much less pronounced.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3112 on: January 09, 2019, 11:26:52 pm »
Hi.

What about leaving the ut2104A in always on mode and re-check again the voltage on the battery without remove it (it has a 8.4V 220mAh nimh currently)  Then with the same procedure using a fresh duracell ultra. 
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Offline stj

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3113 on: January 10, 2019, 12:07:02 am »
you should reallly be running a pair of wires from the battery in the meter to test it's output while it's in circuit and the meter is on.
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3114 on: January 10, 2019, 02:00:42 am »
Just a note: I added the BM857 and the 8060A to the table at my previous post:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2100013/#msg2100013

(Uni-T UT136C, Mastech MAS830L and Fluke 27/FM brown coming next)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 01:43:41 am by rsjsouza »
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3115 on: January 10, 2019, 10:22:17 am »
I have added the Brymen BM27s pocket meter to the list. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3116 on: January 10, 2019, 08:29:45 pm »
Hi

First of all want to apologize for the big mistake on the procedure taken to measure batteries. So n00bian from my part :(


Willing to do another test to check the cut-off voltage of the uni-t 9V using proper techniques to see if it is unpar with the uni-t meters that you have and check if any thing weird on 204A is going on between batteries or might doing something wrong.

Edit

Don't have yet a adjustable power  supply so going to relly on batteries...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 08:43:50 pm by malagas_on_fire »
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3117 on: January 12, 2019, 01:55:14 am »
Yet another (most probably final) edit to my table at:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2100013/#msg2100013

Added the UT136C, 27/FM and MAS830L

The verdict is that you can't beat the venerable ICL7106 in power consumption.  ;D
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3118 on: January 12, 2019, 11:40:48 pm »
This way... meter powers down, open the case, take out the battery and measure voltage with another meter...Should i measure when it is still on the meter even if is supposelly powered off? I can re-run this with the 204A because it can be turned to always on...and draws 1mA in Vac mode.

Broadly speaking, you need to know that NiMH fully drained cells "rebound" when you take the load off them. For example, a completely drained NiMH cell may have an open circuit voltage of ~1.2 V. You can put a small load on it and the voltage will drop down to 0.5 V or lower. Take the load off the cell and the voltage will rapidly rise up towards 1.2 V again. The best way to see this happening is to have the cell attached to the voltmeter when you do this experiment.

Thanks again and i've yet tested with another battery operated device, which gave similar result ( less voltage drop) as you mentioned:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2102320/#msg2102320



Alkaline cells don't behave the same way. They have a very small rebound or recovery, but it is much less pronounced.

Just a reminder:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg2102320/#msg2102320

...tested with 2x AA NIMH cells with chrismas lights untill they turned off, measure voltage without removing them got 1.187V / 1.169V . When taken out they went right to 1.2V and rising...   :palm: |O dooohnhh
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 09:43:17 pm by malagas_on_fire »
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3119 on: January 18, 2019, 09:49:54 pm »
Quote
I assume you own all of them that use 9V batteries and tested them to make a statement like that.   If you watched that short video, you would have seen how low my UT61E ran.  rsjsouza also tested their UT61E and posted the results.  I also posted data for the UT90.   

Well that is in the description of the product sheet or specifications of the uni-t. So for example on uni-t 61E < = 7.5 V, the 7.5V would be  a worst case scenario?

Product Specification for uni-t 61E as an example:

http://www.uni-trend.com/productsdetail_1971_1105_1105.html

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Online rsjsouza

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Offline HKJ

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3121 on: January 26, 2019, 02:31:41 am »
All my multimeter reviews (more than 80) contains current measurement for the meters and estimated runtime until they report empty battery. The estimated runtime is based on discharge curves at different currents.
 

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3122 on: January 26, 2019, 05:39:38 am »

Fluke 27/FM for the win. Thanks RSJ for the list. Interesting that a 20+ year old meter is able to lead the pack.
 
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Offline malagas_on_fire

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3123 on: January 31, 2019, 09:09:30 am »
Hi.

I've catch the uni-t 204A clamp meter powered off and read the voltage of the NIMH battery inside the meter... 2.25V.... It must be draining the battery even shutted off probably...

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Online rsjsouza

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #3124 on: February 01, 2019, 03:03:35 am »
Malagas, depending on the NiMH battery it may have a pretty high self discharge. Otherwise, I would inspect the quiescent current of your clamp - it shouldn't be difficult with a fresh charge and the multimeter you have in uA/mA mode.
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