Handheld meter robustness testing

[rsjsouza]

Hi Joe

strange protections...

I want to apologize to anyone who made the mistake of clicking on that link.  Sadly, I can't control what people post in this thread.     Maybe I can have Dave lock it as I doubt I will do very many more tests on handhelds.     

Instead of locking the whole thing, why not delete the off topic post instead?

[joeqsmith]

Joe, Dave might be able to offer you the ability to lock your own thread.
One I started in the Supporters Lounge had a lock that i could apply should the thread get out of hand however i never used it for fear that I couldn't unlock it.

I suggest you discuss this option with Dave.

It sounds like making me a moderator for this one thread isn't a simple task.   

Instead of locking the whole thing, why not delete the off topic post instead?

   

It's a pretty decent sized thread with some pretty useless posts which make it more difficult to locate the data is all.  I would have liked to have cleaned some of it up as part of making a TOC for it,  then just lock it down.   It was really up to the people posting to decide if they wanted a thread with cat sandwich pictures or something else.    I just asked if he would go ahead and lock it as is.     

Some lack of participation may be due to the inspiration you've freely given to all, including the feckless copy artist's who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.. Also the instruments market doesn't seem to be taken seriously now, since the Asian market has been dumping unsafe crap everywhere. I think we're all suffering fatigue with new whiz-bang junk appearing every 90-days, it just doesn't stop. Whatever you decide, you have earned my respect.

Cliff, the channel has been in the decline for several months.  It's hard to say if posting my test results had an impact outside of maybe selling a few meters for Brymen.    My goals for this were always for my own personal interest,  not to sell meters or make any money at it.   In that respect, I am happy with the result. 

[windsmurf]

Cliff, the channel has been in the decline for several months.  It's hard to say if posting my test results had an impact outside of maybe selling a few meters for Brymen.    My goals for this were always for my own personal interest,  not to sell meters or make any money at it.   In that respect, I am happy with the result.

I think you've helped move a few Uni-T's as well.

Anyhow the last few videos felt a little different from all your previous videos, starting with the Mother Nature Takes Her Turn (which was quite long and I didn't really understand this video).   One thing I see is that videos featuring popular cheap Chinese meters do well, and anything with Fluke also seem to attract viewers. 


 

[bc888]

Joe, I believe that I've made it through the thread without posting any nonsense (yet). So here it is now. Sorry to see you are burned out from all the tests. Speaking for myself, I've enjoyed this more than you imagine.  Regarding your comment from above "It's hard to say if posting my test results had an impact outside of maybe selling a few meters for Brymen." It did for me, and any mfg worth their salt would be looking at these tests and trying to make a meter that handled them better in the future. To that end, you have done all of us a service.

I bought a few old Fluke 27/FM's that test out good. Lets just say that 8 good ones and one that doesn't work due to emotional issues from a battery leak is more than I need. Not sure what happened that I got 9 of these as one would have been good, 2 plenty. Classic TEA (test equipment anonymous) screed I suppose. One moment I'm looking at an Ebay sale screen and the next thing I know my fingers are shaking and I needed to buy them....anyway, I see you didn't test any 27/FM's and I have too many. Like to send you one or two to blow up if you haven't folded up your tent and called it a day yet.

Regardless, thank you again for sharing your tests.

Edit: rather than do a new post, response to below: I had read the FAQ when I first started reading the thread and glossed over that part, thanks for the reminder. If you change your mind, let me know and Joe, the tests you did were very engaging and worthwhile. Thank you again for sharing it all.

[malagas_on_fire]

About deleting if you want me to delete the things related to my battery tests or the chess pieces, since they are not properly standarized or fully tested please let me now. I'll do and again apologize for poluting this thread.  I didn't put enought effort  but i'd like to finnish the current measure for the ut204A using the dummy battery and try to learn with mistakes because this particular meter its a battery hogger .

I think people want cheap meter because they miss the bast shield arc events and slow camera but could be wrong....

[joeqsmith]

I think you've helped move a few Uni-T's as well.

Anyhow the last few videos felt a little different from all your previous videos, starting with the Mother Nature Takes Her Turn (which was quite long and I didn't really understand this video).   One thing I see is that videos featuring popular cheap Chinese meters do well, and anything with Fluke also seem to attract viewers. 

The only UNI-T product I have had a use for was the UT210, as a DC current clamp.  I'm certain I helped sell a few of these. 

Obviously, the lest several videos didn't included new meters.  A couple of them have been non DMM related.  So I am sure you are not alone in feeling they were a little different from the previous ones. 

On the Brymen pocket meter, I let the battery drain down a few times, tossed it outside for the Fall and Winter months, then subjected it to some vibration.   You would really have to help me understand what you don't understand,  if you want me to help.

I bought a few old Fluke 27/FM's that test out good. Lets just say that 8 good ones and one that doesn't work due to emotional issues from a battery leak is more than I need. Not sure what happened that I got 9 of these as one would have been good, 2 plenty. Classic TEA (test equipment anonymous) screed I suppose. One moment I'm looking at an Ebay sale screen and the next thing I know my fingers are shaking and I needed to buy them....anyway, I see you didn't test any 27/FM's and I have too many. Like to send you one or two to blow up if you haven't folded up your tent and called it a day yet.

 

Thanks for the feedback.  I'm looking forward to having a look at the next revision of the 121GW along with the Sanwa pocket meter.   I don't see too many meters out there I am interested in looking at.   It takes about two days to run a set of tests over the course of a week, depending how well a meter is designed and what tests I subject it to, so I tend to be more selective with the ones I look at.   

I created a FAQ.  You can find a link to it in my very first post of this thread.  In there you will find I talk about the reasons why I don't run old meters.  The Fluke 87V was a good example of why not to do this.   While I did look at a Fluke 189, I didn't include the data I collected in the spreadsheet.   

About deleting if you want me to delete the things related to my battery tests or the chess pieces, since they are not properly standarized or fully tested please let me now. I'll do and again apologize for poluting this thread.  I didn't put enought effort  but i'd like to finnish the current measure for the ut204A using the dummy battery and try to learn with mistakes because this particular meter its a battery hogger .

I think people want cheap meter because they miss the bast shield arc events and slow camera but could be wrong....

As I stated above,  "It was really up to the people posting to decide if they wanted a thread with cat sandwich pictures or something else.".   I took a few hours and went through it (second time I have done this since starting the thread).  I managed to remove a couple of my own dead links in the process.   I really didn't see enough off topic posts to make much of a difference in the size of the thread even if I were allowed to clean it up.     

Nothing more from Dave as far as locking it down.   Maybe there is a way to make a dynamic linked TOC.   Currently working on a static one. 

[windsmurf]

I think you've helped move a few Uni-T's as well.

Anyhow the last few videos felt a little different from all your previous videos, starting with the Mother Nature Takes Her Turn (which was quite long and I didn't really understand this video).   One thing I see is that videos featuring popular cheap Chinese meters do well, and anything with Fluke also seem to attract viewers. 

The only UNI-T product I have had a use for was the UT210, as a DC current clamp.  I'm certain I helped sell a few of these. 

Obviously, the lest several videos didn't included new meters.  A couple of them have been non DMM related.  So I am sure you are not alone in feeling they were a little different from the previous ones. 

On the Brymen pocket meter, I let the battery drain down a few times, tossed it outside for the Fall and Winter months, then subjected it to some vibration.   You would really have to help me understand what you don't understand,  if you want me to help.

The issues I had with the video were:
1. You mention in the intro you decided to buy an Amprobe PM55A to see if you can get it to fail in the same manner as an EEVBLOG member who bought a few of these, but don't mention what the failure was... I'm wondering what's the point throughout the video, and eventually I lose interest.

2. The title says Brymen BM27s but why are you testing an Amprobe? 

3. You then discharge a battery and subject it to different environmental conditions... ok... but what are we looking for?  Still don't understand the failure for which you're testing.

[joeqsmith]

I think you've helped move a few Uni-T's as well.

Anyhow the last few videos felt a little different from all your previous videos, starting with the Mother Nature Takes Her Turn (which was quite long and I didn't really understand this video).   One thing I see is that videos featuring popular cheap Chinese meters do well, and anything with Fluke also seem to attract viewers. 

The only UNI-T product I have had a use for was the UT210, as a DC current clamp.  I'm certain I helped sell a few of these. 

Obviously, the lest several videos didn't included new meters.  A couple of them have been non DMM related.  So I am sure you are not alone in feeling they were a little different from the previous ones. 

On the Brymen pocket meter, I let the battery drain down a few times, tossed it outside for the Fall and Winter months, then subjected it to some vibration.   You would really have to help me understand what you don't understand,  if you want me to help.

The issues I had with the video were:
1. You mention in the intro you decided to buy an Amprobe PM55A to see if you can get it to fail in the same manner as an EEVBLOG member who bought a few of these, but don't mention what the failure was... I'm wondering what's the point throughout the video, and eventually I lose interest.

2. The title says Brymen BM27s but why are you testing an Amprobe? 

3. You then discharge a battery and subject it to different environmental conditions... ok... but what are we looking for?  Still don't understand the failure for which you're testing.

In the description, there was a link to True's original posts along with the original video.  Had you watch the original video or followed the thread point to in the link, you would have known that the Amprobe rebranded this meter and they are one in the same. 

My goal for running this meter was always to try and replicate what member True had posted.  Their details were sparse at best and indeed, it could have very well have been a troll post.  They stopped posting and I went ahead and did what I could to try and see if indeed these meters have a weak spot.   Of course, if you are leaving your test equipment outside all Winter long, your an idiot but it's good to know that the meter seems to be a lot more robust than what had been posted.   Of course, True is always free to chime in and add some additional clues.  I would be more than happy to subject this meter to anything they could come up with as a possible cause. 

****

Funny, I just watched the first minute and half of this video.  I think you lost interest before that.   

[windsmurf]

The issues I had with the video were:
1. You mention in the intro you decided to buy an Amprobe PM55A to see if you can get it to fail in the same manner as an EEVBLOG member who bought a few of these, but don't mention what the failure was... I'm wondering what's the point throughout the video, and eventually I lose interest.
2. The title says Brymen BM27s but why are you testing an Amprobe? 
3. You then discharge a battery and subject it to different environmental conditions... ok... but what are we looking for?  Still don't understand the failure for which you're testing.

In the description, there was a link to True's original posts along with the original video.  Had you watch the original video or followed the thread point to in the link, you would have known that the Amprobe rebranded this meter and they are one in the same. 

The link to the original video works.  The link to True's original posting does not go back to anything related to his post.  But the point is, it would be helpful to the viewer if all relevant information could be included within the video, and not have to have the viewer stop the video, go back to review another video or thread, before resuming in order to understand its content.  I hope you take this as constructive criticism; I'm not trying to bash your video.

Funny, I just watched the first minute and half of this video.  I think you lost interest before that.   

What makes you believe that?

[joeqsmith]

Funny, I just watched the first minute and half of this video.  I think you lost interest before that.   

What makes you believe that?

2. The title says Brymen BM27s but why are you testing an Amprobe? 

First 10 seconds:

Hello again
Some time ago I made a video on this Brymen BM27s pocket meter
This one happens to be sold by Amprobe with the part number PM55A

Of course, maybe you did not understand that meant that Brymen made this meter for Amprobe.   You would have needed to use the page down key a few time to locate True's original posts. 

I assume that the people watching these videos have the ability and desire to learn more about the subject and will do their own research.   Not to point out the obvious, but that's actually all this thread has been about, me doing a little research.  No one is spoon feeding me this data.  I'm sorting out the tests and running them on my own.   I'm sure that's a foreign concept to a few people but I image for most people working in the technical sectors, it's a fairly common practice.   

[windsmurf]

First 10 seconds:

Hello again
Some time ago I made a video on this Brymen BM27s pocket meter
This one happens to be sold by Amprobe with the part number PM55A

Yes it was unclear, at least to me, what "this" was... there was no Brymen pocket meter (nor any meter) shown, and only an empty Amprobe package.
Then you seemed to introduce a second a second meter, the Amprobe PM55A... at least that's how I interpreted it.  I ended up waiting for an explanation of the relationship between the two different meters.  I did later deduce that its the same meter but was confused initially.  I posed the question "why are you testing an Amprobe?" as a rhetorical question; one that probably many viewers likely had before finally deducing this bit of information (or through research conclude its the same meter).  Just a few words about this might have conveyed this information and reduced any confusion. 

I assume that the people watching these videos have the ability and desire to learn more about the subject and will do their own research.   Not to point out the obvious, but that's actually all this thread has been about, me doing a little research.  No one is spoon feeding me this data.  I'm sorting out the tests and running them on my own.   I'm sure that's a foreign concept to a few people but I image for most people working in the technical sectors, it's a fairly common practice.   

I've done some research but I STILL cannot find this "True" person's original posting... and I still don't know what failures this person had with his Brymens.  I'm assuming its something environment-related.  Again, just a few words on his problems would have made the video easier to follow. 

[UPDATE:]
Ok I finally found it buried much earlier in the thread.  So... if that video was targeted only for those who have actively been following this thread since at least mid last year, then it would make sense.  If you want to target the video to a more general technical audience, then it would have been helpful to maybe list the issues True mentioned in the thread, for which you were testing.  I, for one, started watching your videos before I even joined EEVBLOG.  Most if not all of them stood on their own, without the viewer having to wade through threads on a forum to understand the point of the video. 

I respect your decision to exclude this information in the video.  I'm just pointing out what I experienced. 
For those who are still "lost" as I was, here's the post to which the video is referring:

A bit late, but I can say, every Meterman PM55 or Amprobe PM55A I have has failed.

What happens:
- Auto mode freaks out and doesn't work (a short shows an unstable high resistance for example)
- Short detect mode shows shorted
- EF (power stick) mode works
- I can't remember what Low-Z volts does
- Hi-Z voltage works
- Diode mode acts like a short
- High ohms varies from not working to usually sounding the "shorted" beeper; IIRC high ohms will not give a stable reading
- Haven't tested current

What causes this?

The only similar thing I could find was a dying battery.

I purchased a new unit after my PM55A had failed, only to find a PM55 I gave to a friend also failed. I tested a PM55 I had and it too had failed. The replacement? Well, it tested good (testing 5V in auto mode, and shorting probes, that's it...); after a month when I went to use it to test a low voltage DC circuit again, it showed low battery ... and sure enough it failed too.

I'd like to fix them but have no idea where to start or what could have failed.

[joeqsmith]

[UPDATE:]
Ok I finally found it buried much earlier in the thread.  So... if that video was targeted only for those who have actively been following this thread since at least mid last year, then it would make sense.  If you want to target the video to a more general technical audience, then it would have been helpful to maybe list the issues True mentioned in the thread, for which you were testing.  I, for one, started watching your videos before I even joined EEVBLOG. Most if not all of them stood on their own, without the viewer having to wade through threads on a forum to understand the point of the video.

Are you sure you are watching my videos??   These tests have been difficult it seems for many people to follow.  I created the FAQ to help address this and it did seem to curb some of the more common questions people had.   The fact you feel they stand on their own is amazing.  Without this thread to provide some level of context, I am surprised anyone could have followed along.  Even with the thread, unless you have a EE background I would think it would be difficult.   It's definitely a niche subject.   

So far you have been the only one who voiced their confusion over the rebranding.   Not that others were not lost as well but for the most part it doesn't seem to have been a problem.   Perhaps it's because most people who are interested in the topic are aware of how common rebranding is.   

The description states  "You may find the original posts here:"
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/2775/

While the actual posts started on that same page at: 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/2790

Had you had taken the time to watch the first five minutes of the first video, I read what True had posted.  But I wasn't going to do that for every video going forward.  That's why I provide the links for people to do their own background search. 
https://youtu.be/0D_6uOFSgyY?t=201

Of course, if you choose to jump in the middle of a longer term test like this I expect you to be lost.   I normally start reading a book at the beginning for this same reason.   

[windsmurf]

My mistake.  Sorry for the confusion...

[Fungus]

I did however finally run the test for Mr Fungus.   

Thanks!

Basically not much difference between the worm gear types and rotary ones. Didn't expect that.

And I learned a new word: "Diddlestick".

(I actually own a blue Bournes diddlestick  )

[Fungus]

I guess the advantage of the worm gear ones is that they have very fine adjustment and are harder to damage with a ham fist.

From what I've seen they also have multiple wipers making contact with the carbon.

[rsjsouza]

I'm guessing they were called diddle sticks long before my time.   

I forgot to add the last "/" to the TOC.  It should all work now.   Per Windsmurf's comments, obviously the links will only get you to the top of the page.  You may need to hunt around a bit from this location to find what you are looking for.

I know you already did the work, but to go directly to a specific post, right-click on its title and copy the link.

For example, the link to The Brymen BM869s, It's 14KV or Bust is:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1407796/#msg1407796

(the message ID never changes)

[joeqsmith]

Now THAT is what I call useful feedback!   

***

I have gone ahead and updated the TOC.   While going through it, I noticed a few others that seemed worth linking.    I also blew away a few more of my own posts that were not related to handheld mulltimeters.     The TOC should help avoid some of the other non related posts.   

[bitseeker]

Great job organizing the OP, Joe. That's a lot of info!

[malagas_on_fire]

Hi.

Nice work on the static links on the first post. It looks like a history . I have a question. Does it appear always whether the post you're reading? I can only see the links when i hit the print button .

Have also turned off the ad blocker but no effect just to be sure :S I'll attach an example of a print on pdf format so you can see. Again i could be doing something wrong or not seeing properly

the document is too big for attachment. here is the doc :

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nuwirpJ9RUXKu3heGG4KU_P8TOJPNmTg

[malagas_on_fire]

Hi.

Nice work on the static links on the first post. It looks like a history . I have a question. Does it appear always whether the post you're reading? I can only see the links when i hit the print button .

Have also turned off the ad blocker but no effect just to be sure :S I'll attach an example of a print on pdf format so you can see. Again i could be doing something wrong or not seeing properly

the document is too big for attachment. here is the doc :

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nuwirpJ9RUXKu3heGG4KU_P8TOJPNmTg

Nevermind the print prints all the threads ... never tried out to be honest... bummer :S sorry. My question now  if there is a way to put a permant link or permalink on the thread, for example the poll that keeps always on the thread regardless of the post you're watching.

[2N3055]

Thanks for the effort creating TOC. Nice of you, and makes this topic even better.
Regards,
Siniša

[Fungus]

This thread has been great, I've personally learned a lot and been put in my place a couple of times, but I agree, there's not really anywhere to go from here. It's time to wrap it up. 

Thanks for all the work, Joe. 

A whole bunch of meter's electrical limits have been found, their weak points have been identified, experimental improvements have been made, everything has been well documented and anybody who's followed this saga must surely have learned a lot about how multimeters do their thing.

[Fungus]

Enjoy

You sure get a lot of weather over there. 

[Fungus]

Just thinking out load of a big finale for this thread...

Maybe you could find out how many volts it takes to zap a Fluke 101? It would need a beefed-up generator but that could be a fun challenge. 

[joeqsmith]

Dave did not want to close it because it is a popular place to discuss power tools.      I guess it ranks in the top 10??!!  I never would have guessed this. 

I didn't plan on doing anything more with it, which is why I was suggesting it be locked.  If I do some big finale, it will be to finally put that latest thicker PCB version of the 121GW through it's paces.   No place to hide this time around.   

I would like to do some sort of comparison with the pocket meter Dave is selling as well.  I beat the shit out of that Brymen pocket meter.  Maybe the Sanwa can handle that level of abuse....

No need for a beefed up generator as that work was done some time ago.  I suspect the 101 would e damaged around the same levels that finally damaged the 107.