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How many cycles will the KeySight U1281A's detent spring last?

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Total Members Voted: 36

Author Topic: Handheld meter robustness testing  (Read 1149522 times)

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Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1400 on: May 27, 2017, 08:17:40 am »
throw 'em in the dryer machine...

FedEx it to yourself.  :scared:

 

Offline P90

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1401 on: May 27, 2017, 08:29:03 am »
throw 'em in the dryer machine...

FedEx it to yourself.  :scared:

and write " FedEx drivers suck!" on the package in large purple letters, before you send it...  :-)
 
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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1402 on: May 27, 2017, 12:07:41 pm »
Quote
One problem: He likes to quantify things and "slapping" is unscientific. I can't wait to see the machine he invents for this.  :popcorn:
I wonder how my wife would feel about setting up small environmental chamber with a vibration table in the living room. 

A vibration table lets you accurately compare meters against other meters but it doesn't give you any feel for how easy it is to do the real world. For that you need to slap it around a bit.

Equipment like this is exactly how we get reproducible tests.   First define what "real world" is, then we test is.  For you, real world apparently means slapping the meter around.  I think to Dave it means dropping it from the dam or swimming with it.   The meter survived shipment to my house across the ocean.  I would guess it saw some pretty big changes in temperature, pressure and vibration.  Relays were in their correct state.  Maybe that is real world?

Almost forgot, I did bang on it pretty good with a screw driver in various locations.  Not something normally I would expect in the real world, but when you have a POS product such as this one, I could see it even going airborne in the lab.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 12:20:06 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1403 on: May 27, 2017, 01:14:55 pm »
The meter survived shipment to my house across the ocean.  I would guess it saw some pretty big changes in temperature, pressure and vibration.
Welll ... Oceans don't really vibrate or shake. It's more heave and roll.

I already gave the example of driving across a farm with the meter loose in the back of a pickup truck. That's real world, it could happen.

What I"m really talking about is getting a finger in the air feel for where the bar should be set. eg. If you've tapped it for a few minutes from all directions with a little hammer and failed to move the relay then it's obviously not easy to move and you'll need a powerful vibration table. It could also go the other way and the relay shifts with the first tap - not much of a table needed!

Whichever it goes, it's information. I don't see why it should be dismissed just because it's not scientifically rigorous.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 01:19:09 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1404 on: May 27, 2017, 01:47:39 pm »
I assume based on value that it was sent by air.  This is why I mentioned the temperatures and pressures.

Sure, I could drop it from my roof to the concrete below and that would be real world.  I could drop it out the window of my car, that would be real world.  I could even hit it with a "little hammer" which in my case would be a 10lb sledge.   

The problem is how do you quantify and reproduce it?  IMO such tests are pointless to attempt at the hobby level.  At best a drop test could be performed but I really have no interest in such things which is why I never do it.  I'll leave this to the Dave's of the world. 

Like I said, I know the meter made it to my home from Germany without changing states or at least showed up in the correct state.  That's real world testing.

Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1405 on: May 27, 2017, 03:11:39 pm »
The problem is how do you quantify and reproduce it?

None of these worries stopped you from waving an uncalibrated tape eraser near it to see whether it had an effect or not. You didn't measure the strength of the strap magnet or precisely measure the distance to the meter, you just held it up to the camera and said "about that far".

How is tapping it from all directions any less scientific than that? :-//
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1406 on: May 27, 2017, 04:06:12 pm »
That is correct.  It also did not stop me from tapping on it with a screwdriver to see if there was any effect, which there was not.  In my home electronic hobbies I actually do have magnetic fields around (like the tape eraser) but it would be rare that I would ever tap on test equipment or drop it which is really why I don't care about it.   

The half cycle line test, investigating the shunts, RF immunity, emissions, high frequency high voltage....  all fall into this unscientific testing.  Because I have no way to quantify the results, they are not something I keep metrics on.   

I am not running these tests for you personally or the general public.  I run them for myself and share the results. If you are looking for someone to drop, beat on or swim with them, Dave is your guy.  Another option would be for you to step up, buy this same meter and show us how it should be tested. 

 
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Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1407 on: May 27, 2017, 04:13:12 pm »
I'm not going to buy an $800 for a meter just to do that test but it might be interesting to get a couple of transparent-cased relays with similar G-ratings and tap them to get an idea of what the G-ratings translate to in tangible terms.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 04:15:44 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1408 on: May 27, 2017, 04:32:54 pm »
A one meter fall on a hard surface is likely to damage the relays, especially if the meter is dropped without its rubber boot.
Drop face first on concrete and feel the effect of 100g.  >:D
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1409 on: May 27, 2017, 04:58:24 pm »
Yep, G force numbers look big on paper but a sharp tap can easily produce hundreds of Gs for an instant.

Real engineers carry their meters in huge foam padded cases and only take them out on site.

What would you do if you dropped your meter as you took it out of the case on site? Say 'sorry I can't use that' and come back next day?  :popcorn:
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1410 on: May 27, 2017, 05:02:31 pm »
I'm not going to buy an $800 for a meter just to do that test but it might be interesting to get a couple of transparent-cased relays with similar G-ratings and tap them to get an idea of what the G-ratings translate to in tangible terms.
You should not expect people to do something you are not willing to do yourself.  It's fine to ask but don't expect it. 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1411 on: May 27, 2017, 05:06:56 pm »
A one meter fall on a hard surface is likely to damage the relays, especially if the meter is dropped without its rubber boot.
Drop face first on concrete and feel the effect of 100g.  >:D

I will take your word for it. 

Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1412 on: May 27, 2017, 05:09:22 pm »
They make stickers for parcels that can be used for tests like this.

http://shockwatch.com/products/impact-and-tilt/impact-indicators

 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1413 on: May 27, 2017, 05:13:24 pm »
Yep, G force numbers look big on paper but a sharp tap can easily produce hundreds of Gs for an instant.

Real engineers carry their meters in huge foam padded cases and only take them out on site.

What would you do if you dropped your meter as you took it out of the case on site? Say 'sorry I can't use that' and come back next day?  :popcorn:

Bring two of them?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1414 on: May 27, 2017, 05:23:49 pm »
You should not expect people to do something you are not willing to do yourself.  It's fine to ask but don't expect it.

I don't have currently one of those meters on my table with the intention of doing bad things to it later. If I did I wouldn't be against a few more knock tests.

I know you're waiting for Brymen(*) to comment before opening it up, etc. Maybe you can do the bashing after all the electrical testing is over and the back is off. You could attach some wires to the relay and flash a LED when it changes position - it doesn't matter if the meter is dead or alive for that.

Is a test of the of the fancy input-jack-blocking mechanism's robustness also in the agenda? I believe there was interest shown earlier.


Edit: I meant Gossen, of course.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 06:15:13 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1415 on: May 27, 2017, 06:12:15 pm »
I have a recommendation for your next meter to test, the Prova 803 http://www.prova.com.tw/product_detail.asp?seq=49 (or the Prova 901/903 which is true RMS and 200 kHz bandwidth)

It just looks so funky.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 06:14:18 pm by TheAmmoniacal »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1416 on: May 27, 2017, 06:14:06 pm »
 

Offline PA4TIM

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1417 on: May 27, 2017, 06:17:01 pm »
The meter survived shipment to my house across the ocean.  I would guess it saw some pretty big changes in temperature, pressure and vibration.


I already gave the example of driving across a farm with the meter loose in the back of a pickup truck. That's real world, it could happen.



In your world maybe, not in mine.  ;)

The worst shock my meters get is when they flip over on the bench in my lab.

My 6 year old Agilent U1252A shows different wear. The blue "foam" is desintegrating. I had to replaced the common bus, the probes fell apart (the foam, became real sticky), The testleads from the black lead broke several times just at the connector. Very strange leads, there is a sort of black stuff around the core, looks like graphite or so. But I use them every day so no complains, I do like them because the resistance is very low and stable. I wonder if the stuff is there to lower the triboelectric effect. HP did something like that for the testleads (i do not have) of the HP4329 ( I do have: http://www.pa4tim.nl/?p=2269 ) I replaced the 9V nimh twice and repaired the charger.

Most important for me, it is still spot on.

Safety is probably not as big thing for my job as for others. But I'm glad it is safe. As long as it survives stupid things like probing 350VDC in a smps still in diode or resistance mode I'm happy. I have 2 HV probes and for current I use shunts, clampmeters, current probes and a fluxgate probe.

The big 440mA fuse of my Agilent failed, I have no clue how, maybe when the charger or a battery failed.  I never use it for current. So I rebuild the big 440mA fuse with parts of a panel-fuse holder and dropped a small glass-fuse in it. The only current it sees is from the charger.

After Joes videos I'm thinking about a Brymen 869s as a second handmeter.  I'm not a Fluke fanboy, I could cuff up lot of money I probably bought a Keysight (one with the oled screen).
www.pa4tim.nl my collection measurement gear and experiments Also lots of info about network analyse
www.schneiderelectronicsrepair.nl  repair of test and calibration equipment
https://www.youtube.com/user/pa4tim my youtube channel
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1418 on: May 27, 2017, 06:40:56 pm »
You should not expect people to do something you are not willing to do yourself.  It's fine to ask but don't expect it.

I don't have currently one of those meters on my table with the intention of doing bad things to it later. If I did I wouldn't be against a few more knock tests.

I know you're waiting for Brymen(*) to comment before opening it up, etc. Maybe you can do the bashing after all the electrical testing is over and the back is off. You could attach some wires to the relay and flash a LED when it changes position - it doesn't matter if the meter is dead or alive for that.

Is a test of the of the fancy input-jack-blocking mechanism's robustness also in the agenda? I believe there was interest shown earlier.


Edit: I meant Gossen, of course.

You have meters.  Subject them to what your idea of real world is and video tape it.  Then I will have some idea what your real world is.  Don't link me your meter on a rope video.

I am not a fan of that DC input jack.  First it just seems like a stupid idea.  They seal it from the inside but there is no rubber plug to seal it from the outside.  If they do offer it, I bet its $20 for one! 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 05:12:11 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1419 on: May 27, 2017, 06:51:08 pm »
The meter survived shipment to my house across the ocean.  I would guess it saw some pretty big changes in temperature, pressure and vibration.


I already gave the example of driving across a farm with the meter loose in the back of a pickup truck. That's real world, it could happen.



In your world maybe, not in mine.  ;)

The worst shock my meters get is when they flip over on the bench in my lab.

...

Safety is probably not as big thing for my job as for others. But I'm glad it is safe. As long as it survives stupid things like probing 350VDC in a smps still in diode or resistance mode I'm happy. I have 2 HV probes and for current I use shunts, clampmeters, current probes and a fluxgate probe.

The big 440mA fuse of my Agilent failed, I have no clue how, maybe when the charger or a battery failed.  I never use it for current. So I rebuild the big 440mA fuse with parts of a panel-fuse holder and dropped a small glass-fuse in it. The only current it sees is from the charger.

After Joes videos I'm thinking about a Brymen 869s as a second handmeter.  I'm not a Fluke fanboy, I could cuff up lot of money I probably bought a Keysight (one with the oled screen).

For the Brymen, that's pretty much the same mechanical shock test mine gets, it falls over on it's side sitting on the bench. 

I would be interested in seeing your fuse mods.  I bought a bag of five the large body HRC fuses from Digikey for not too much. Seems like under $5/ea and they are not counterfeit.       

There are some pretty interesting videos of the OLED meters in direct sunlight.  I see a fair number of posts about them having a short life.   One day I may look into it. 

Online Fungus

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1420 on: May 27, 2017, 07:51:58 pm »
In your world maybe, not in mine.  ;)
Don't you have any curiosity about the physical limits of this meter?

 

Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1421 on: May 27, 2017, 08:11:41 pm »
The relay they use is a Panasonic DS2E-SL2-DC5V

Offline tautech

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1422 on: May 27, 2017, 08:42:13 pm »
What makes you think I have not given up on Gossen and that the meter is still together?   Do you really feel that I have not already done bad things to it or that its not damaged beyond repair already?
It's open and the soldering iron's out.  :scared:

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Offline joeqsmithTopic starter

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1423 on: May 27, 2017, 09:04:21 pm »
Dave's ghost meter is watching the surgery, knowing one day it will be his turn.   :-DD
 
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Offline PA4TIM

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Re: Handheld meter electrical robustness testing.
« Reply #1424 on: May 27, 2017, 09:21:26 pm »
In your world maybe, not in mine.  ;)
Don't you have any curiosity about the physical limits of this meter?

No, should I ?
I only use it in my lab, I repair measurement and calibration gear for a living. Most used meters here are the Agilent U1252A and a Keithley 2000

Joe: I will make a photo of the fuse (if I do not forget)
I do not use the meter outside, but if I see it on vlogs it looks very well readable in house and that is very important for me. I like the color screen of your uni-T (181 ?  the left one on the picture above)
I want a fast meter, accurate, stable over time and temp. The Brymen seems to do all what I need and want.
www.pa4tim.nl my collection measurement gear and experiments Also lots of info about network analyse
www.schneiderelectronicsrepair.nl  repair of test and calibration equipment
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