How to promote an USB oscilloscope to individual engineers? I am the Loto instru

[radiolistener]

jiangtao.lv if you want to make some usb oscilloscope bestseller, you can do it by implementing SDR DDC receiver mode inside your oscilloscope. It's not so hard, just needs some more FPGA programming. Because input amplifier, ADC and FPGA is already present in the oscilloscope hardware.

If you can provide users with ExtIO DLL which will acts with your usb oscilloscope hardware to use it from HDSDR software as SDR DDC receiver, and you can keep the price low, your product will be bestseller, the same as RTLSDR dongle

[jiangtao.lv]

Jiangtao,

Do not be discouraged by many of the responses here. You have come to a forum full of engineers. Engineers do not know how to write politely and with consideration. They can be quite rude. However there is still good advice to be found in what they have written.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk

Thank you very much for your kind comfort.It's very kind of you.I think  I'm old  enough to be stimulated by these sharp advice.
I won't be in a mood swing because there is good advice as you said.This kind of environment makes me feel familiar,it is also true of the Chinese engineering community.

[jiangtao.lv]

thank you , I will try to learn and think about it.

[radiolistener]

jiangtao.lv in addition to SDR DDC mode, there are more similar features that you can implement in your USB oscilloscope to make it very popular.

For example, you can add the following functions to your device:
- arbitrary wave / multi-function generator (just by adding DAC)
- frequency meter
- spectrum analyzer
- vector analyzer
- antenna analyzer
- frequency and phase response analyzer
- LC-meter
- reflectometer
- SDR DDC receiver
- QRP SDR transceiver (use ADC+FPGA as SDR DDC receiver and DAC+FPGA as SDR DUC transmitter)

Also, you can implement stroboscopic oscilloscope mode in order to measure periodic signal with frequency which is much higher than ADC sampling rate.

All these functions are very high demand for amateur and hobby electronics peoples. And your device with these functions will be very popular.

All these functions can be done just in software, and you can make total unit cost smaller than $50.

For example, you can see this one: http://www.osa103.ru/en/main-page/
As you can see, this device is very cheap and simple, but provides a lot of professional-level functions.
And with extension board it allows to measure frequencies up to 6 GHz.

As you can see, this device uses just two expensive IC (FPGA and ADC), but it can replace a bunch of professional equipment.
This is what users expecting from USB oscilloscope.
Not just "yet another cheap usb oscilloscope", but a real useful and multifunction device.

Here is PDF with schematic of OSA-103 device, as you can see it may be even less complicated than your USB oscilloscopes, but it can beat your oscilloscopes with a lot of very needed functions, implemented in software.
And it can beat even professional equipment.

[rsjsouza]

Jiangtao,

Do not be discouraged by many of the responses here. You have come to a forum full of engineers. Engineers do not know how to write politely and with consideration. They can be quite rude. However there is still good advice to be found in what they have written.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk

Thank you very much for your kind comfort.It's very kind of you.I think  I'm old  enough to be stimulated by these sharp advice.
I won't be in a mood swing because there is good advice as you said.This kind of environment makes me feel familiar,it is also true of the Chinese engineering community.

I am not sure if Gary.M's comment was directed at me, but re-reading my post I can see how it could come across as very harsh. Sorry about that.

I do this for a living (or at least part of it) and treated this as one more document review that I usually do in my day-to-day life. Unfortunately I forgot this was not part of an over-arching discussion where the tone is set well before the actual comments for changes. I will be more subtle in the future.

[rsjsouza]

Do you have a physical unit?

No. Why should I buy something I can't use because of missing software?

Well, I thought you had the physical unit to call it "useless" - no, it is not useless as it works in the OSes it supports. 

[glarsson]

Well, I thought you had the physical unit to call it "useless" - no, it is not useless as it works in the OSes it supports.

I thought it was obvious that I think it was useless to me. This is also something I can figure out without buying it.

[tkamiya]

I think most engineers dislike USB scopes.  It's synonymous with cheap low end stuff and there's a lot to be said about physical knobs.  Accessibility, speed, familiarity, etc.  (except for Tektronix and Pico scope)

Also, market is already saturated from low end to high end.  No matter what entry point you choose, competitor is well ahead of you. 

I have an Owon VDS1022i.  That's the quality and price point you'll be competing against.  I think of these as student devices, or some special use cases.  It really doesn't belong to an engineer's desktop.

[jiangtao.lv]

I think most engineers dislike USB scopes.  It's synonymous with cheap low end stuff and there's a lot to be said about physical knobs.  Accessibility, speed, familiarity, etc.  (except for Tektronix and Pico scope)

Also, market is already saturated from low end to high end.  No matter what entry point you choose, competitor is well ahead of you. 

I have an Owon VDS1022i.  That's the quality and price point you'll be competing against.  I think of these as student devices, or some special use cases.  It really doesn't belong to an engineer's desktop.

Is this true for engineers? It is a very important question.

[ataradov]

Is this true for engineers? It is a very important question.

For what it's worth, I would not consider USB-based scope unless there is a GOOD UI and support for Windows/Linux/ MAC OS. And also API for getting the data in Python or some other programming language. The value of having a USB scope is ability to process the data.

And on this front, almost no known vendors deliver a good experience, so you have a chance to take that niche, provided your price is not outrageous.  Here you will be competing against National Instruments,  so you may want to look at their offering. And if you can deliver similar stuff at 1/10 of the price, you are golden.

And by good UI, I don't mean simulation of a scope front panel with knobs that are a pain to turn with a mouse, but a UI that is actually designed for a PC use.

[jiangtao.lv]

roger that,I will take my best efforts to do it.Maybe I will try another one or two years.

[DDunfield]

Is this true for engineers? It is a very important question.

I believe it is quite true. The guys I work with scoff and snicker whenever the subject of USB scopes comes up. But they almost never say "those things are hard to use". The thing always stated is "those things don't work".

I think we all agree that a benchtop scope is better to use. The display is always there and not covered up by the debugger you've got open, and you can adjust it by feel while looking at the display.
With USB you have to grope around for a mouse and look at the control while adjusting it (I agree with the comment on "virtual knobs" - PLEASE use normal GUI elements). But we have lots of tools which are PC/USB based and we're used to it enough that were there some other compelling reason to use a USB scope, I think most engineers would consider it... except for ..

USB scopes have a strong reputation for not working reliably (or at all in some case). At least the ones many people would consider have this reputation.
And unreliability in test equipment is a "show stopper" to any professional.

High-end USB scopes can work (some of them actually do), but don't cost significantly less than a better desktop scope (often more). For most, there just isn't a compelling reason to go that way.
The benefits a USB scope offers are:

- Lower cost.

  Often not true for the ones that actually work.  And most companies or independent engineers would gladly pay a few $$$ more for something that is more usable and reliable.
  Cost is something more important to a hobbyist.

- Small size (assuming you have a computer at the workstation anyway)

  Generally not a big deal in a commercial lab setting. You make room for is a decent scope. And modern bench scopes are much smaller than they used to be.
  May be more important in a portable setup, field work etc. but that is usually done with a "Scopemeter".
  Again, this is more appealing to a hobbyist, who may be relegated to the corner of an apartment or other small work area.

- Ease of extracting waveform data.

  Since USB scopes already have the data "in the PC" it can be much easier/faster to access it than using a USB/LAB interface with a bench scope.
  But it can be done quite easily with modern bench scopes, and unless you do it a LOT (data logging etc.) generally not worth the downsides.

- Can be combined into a multi-purpose portable lab tool.

   "Analog Discovery" .. example of a successful device even though it costs as much as an entry bench scope. Lots of functionality in a very small package.
   Most engineers will want better versions of the functions it can perform on their bench, but still useful as a "portable lab".
   Cost is high for hobbiest but not out of reach of many.


Most "Cost effective" USB scope just don't work reliably. Mainly because maker has cut corners to the bare bone, relying on unreliable streaming to a PC which "does everything". Software tends to be buggier than firmware in dedicated scopes.  I've tried a number of the "streaming" USB scopes, and even with a belting fast PC they just couldn't hold a candle to my oldest/crappiest bench scope.
Unreliable triggering, missed sections in captures, not usable at all for serious work.

I do have a VDS1022I, but it's different from the others in that it does the capture/triggering inside the box. The PC is only a display. This is the only cheap (<$100) USB scope I've found which actually works. I don't use it on a daily basis, it lives in my laptop bag which I always have with me when off-site .. so now I always have a basic scope with me.

If you want to make a successful USB scope:

#1 - It HAS TO WORK! not just "mostly work" - it has to be as reliable as a bench scope.

#2 - Decent software. No "virtual knobs". Design it to be used with a mouse by someone who would really rather not be using a PC at the moment (ie: minimize "mousing around").
        Support many host platforms: Win, Max, Linux, Android/IOS (tablet support) etc.
        As bug free as possible.

#3 - Open interface. Document the control protocol. Not only will that get it supported by things like SIGROK, but it allows people to use it for other dedicated purposes.
       I think one area where a USB scope could appeal to a professional is in automated monitoring and logging systems.

#4 - Open software. Since your hardware is a great security "dongal", why not open the software. This can go a long way as it lets people:
        See how to do programatically do various functions with the scope.
        Pull out code to use in dedicated (non UI) applications.
        Fix bugs and change other annoyances that you might not get around to.

#5 - Offer something more - make it stand out, things like:
       Isolated USB interface.
       Higher then expected bandwidth, sample rate, sample size, sample depth precision etc. for the cost.
       Extra test and measurement functions.
       Logic analyzer.
       Signal/function generator etc.

I'd love to see a low cost USB scope which ticks all the boxes.  The VDS1022I comes close but you could do better: Higher bandwidth/sample rate. Deeper capture memory, Ability to trigger >=100ms, more advanced functions, open interface. Build that at the right price and "they will come" (at least I would).

Dave

[Lukas]

As others already mentioned, software makes or breaks such a product these days. At first sight, the screenshots look like a break to me:

 - At least one oversized "knob". Don't do that, just use a normal text widget with up/down/zero buttons
 - Screenshots showing windows XP with some weird font.

[jiangtao.lv]

Thank you, Lukas.
On the following Tuesday, I will be at Nuremberg in Germany for an electronics exhibition.I will take several samples with me. If you are there, It's my honor to make a demonstration for you and show its features. It will be much better than I said and write in English. The web for application for tickets is : www.embedded-world.de/voucher , you can use this code to save 20 euros. I'm ROCKTECH in hall3,738.

[jiangtao.lv]

Dear Dave:
I think,your description is very objective and convincing.Thank you very much for your valuable point of view. It would represent a certain level of hardware engineer's inner real idea. I will read it again and again  the next time, and then adjust my strategy accordingly.

[jiangtao.lv]

Thank you, Lukas.
On the following Tuesday, I will be at Nuremberg in Germany for an electronics exhibition.I will take several samples with me. If you are there, It's my honor to make a demonstration for you and show its features. It will be much better than I said and write in English. The web for application for tickets is : www.embedded-world.de/voucher , you can use this code to save 20 euros. I'm ROCKTECH in hall3,738.

sorry ,forgot the code:B408718

[Kean]

@jiangtao.lv
Do you have some association with Biray TMI? (www dot biraycn dot com)
I got a spam email from them yesterday promoting the OSC802 USB Oscilloscope.
The email had a link to a youtube video comparing the OSC802 vs a unknown Rigol and measuring 20mV ripple on a power supply.
I recalled that particular model number being mention here, and it looked just like your photos.
PS.  Spam is bad! 

[rsjsouza]

#3 - Open interface. Document the control protocol. Not only will that get it supported by things like SIGROK, but it allows people to use it for other dedicated purposes.
       I think one area where a USB scope could appeal to a professional is in automated monitoring and logging systems.

I think it is already supported by Sigrok:
https://sigrok.org/wiki/Loto_OSC802

[jiangtao.lv]

@jiangtao.lv
Do you have some association with Biray TMI? (www dot biraycn dot com)
I got a spam email from them yesterday promoting the OSC802 USB Oscilloscope.
The email had a link to a youtube video comparing the OSC802 vs a unknown Rigol and measuring 20mV ripple on a power supply.
I recalled that particular model number being mention here, and it looked just like your photos.
PS.  Spam is bad! 

Sorry, dear Kean:
Busy and tired last week, so didn't here.It's maybe my secondary distributor, I don't recognize it but it is indeed advertising my osc802, sorry about that. In the exhibition, I heard of that a new European regulations prohibits asking for bussiness card of vistors to protect privacy. I would to inform them to notice that and your suggestion.

In exhibition, I met Mr smith,a gentle man here,thank you for your encourage and kindness concern, and your colleague Alen.

[Mechatrommer]

while ebaying, this one looks familiar and i remember its been discussed... so its all over ebay now its very easy to enter the market over there... good luck..
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=OSC2002+Oscilloscope&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_odkw=ad9910
one curiosity though... if that thing never sell, can it be returned to the manufacturer (the OP in this case) or they will be eternal in distributors (ebay sellers) storage?

[jiangtao.lv]

I am back again. It has been about 15 months since the last time I asked questions here. I suddenly remembered that it was time to report to you the status of this USB oscilloscope project after more than a year.

Thankfully I found the login account and password for this post I recorded.

About 9 months ago, my team was separated from the company and became independent. We formed a very small and very new company. I didn't know how to do it, but now I understand it a little bit, and it is gratifying that I survived, and did not disband the team and did not continue to operate. However, it has not been very good and has developed greatly. The team is still maintained at 6 people, and each person is responsible for one direction.

The team that I can only support 6 people now has a little surplus. I love such a small team. The efficiency of team assistance is very high. I hope we can continue to stick to it. After a year, I will come to report the situation of our team.

Including me, half of the people in the team are doing full-time R & D, which is something I think is worth persevering and showing off. The product needs time to gradually polish and improve, and it will not be perfect from the beginning. I realized this very early, so I have seen many criticisms and suggestions here, and I am not very anxious or discouraged. I set my goal so that the team can survive and continue to develop. After every week or month, the product will be improved than before. It is difficult to grasp whether there is a big progress or a small one, but I will make sure that there is progress.

Because we are out of the original company, we have no energy to make a big and gorgeous website, our software engineer made a very simple web page: www.lotoins.com

It ’s been a while since I could n’t remember the state of the product when I first came here to post, but it should be certain that we have newly developed the OSCH02 model with 1G equivalent sampling and a bandwidth of 100M, and added an isolated differential module. The module is used to measure hot ground and high voltage, adding three models of products that can be used on Android phones, newly developing 4-channel models, and newly developing special models for car maintenance.

The functions of the software are increased more, and they are all upgraded for free, such as the decoding function of RS232, 422, 485, CAN bus, IIC bus, and the historical statistical curve of the measured quantity for Pass/Fail and fault linkage, etc. Of course, there are a lot of new features that are very detailed.

I also spent a lot of energy to make some videos for explanation, there are twenty bars, but the reading is very small, probably because of language problems, I did not learn to make subtitles on youtube that can be translated online online a few days ago . Oh my god, I was stupid before, and I spent a lot of energy, and I dubbed myself in English, and then put English subtitles on the video.

In addition, I went to an exhibition in Nuremberg, Germany last spring, and met the PICO team. My spoken English is a little ordinary, so I did not have very in-depth communication, but I am very grateful for my encouragement. Pico is the idol of our team. From there, I know that the boss of PICO will be here. If you see it, thank you for your attention ：）

[jiangtao.lv]

LOTO Practice Essence ( ||Fuse Experiment

This video uses LOTO oscilloscope OSC482 and current probe C05A to perform overcurrent test on two different types of fuses. One is a 200MA fuse, and the other is a 300MA resettable fuse. From the measured result curve, the latter is superior to the former.

[jiangtao.lv]

[jiangtao.lv]

[gnuarm]

Lots of Androids around that could use a low power hardware interface via USB OTG.  One less chance for mains hum to ingress if just Android battery is used.

That actually points out a weakness in the product, power source!  I might well prefer to use this with an Android tablet or a phone.  The scope gets its power from the tablet or phone via the USB port.  How does power get into the system?  My cell runs for only a few hours when used continuously.  The scope seems to draw a similar power level so would cut the battery life in half.  So an external power source would be needed. 

The ideal solution would be to have a separate power jack on the scope and allow it to keep the phone charged through the USB jack.  This would be similar to the Raspberry Pi which has a USB jack to receive power and a USB jack connect to devices and provide them with power.  I can't see the Android approach being very useful otherwise.