HP1652B logic analyser - missing oscilloscope functionality

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

https://youtu.be/oJQNJxtMKmY



Hello friends

I recently scored two HP1652B logic analyser. The first came as just the analyser so I bought the second because it looked to have the system disks cables and Pods. 

I have booted them both up from the same system disk and they have the same problem no oscilloscope functionality. From the system configuration  screen I see all the pods listed but there should be the oscilloscope setting menu shown to the right of the pods.   This is shown in the getting started guide.

I am suspecting that the problem is the system disk that perhaps does not have the oscilloscope system driver. If it's anything like my 16500A they have separate system files for the LA and oscilloscope that load separately. The files on the system disc I have is list as:

PVTEST_           1650/1_config HP1650B/51B/54B/ Selftest       V02.06
SYSTEM_          1650/51-system  HP165xB SPA System                                       V02.07

Any ideas. I know it's possible to create new disks for these but I don't have a suitable DOS computer with drives etc.   Best regards Chris in the UK

PS now own HP1531D
                  HP1652B x2
                  HP16500A
                  HP16500C

The thing is I'm not that interested in digital electronics anyway. Please someone just kill me now.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

I'm kind of thinking perhaps I have been given a system disk for a 50 or 51 model as I just noticed the 52 is not mentioned in the file name.   The 50/51 look similar machines but no scope.

Can anyone confirm or copy me a disk. Unfortunately it's going to be very painful to create a new disk from scratch as the HP utility require special old school equipment I don't have.

Any help ideas appreciated

Chris

[Silveruser]

A quick search revealed this site with files. http://www.hp1652bmanual.com/

I know what you are going thru I picked up a 1650 a while back with no disk. Tried various computers, none seemed to work. Finally decided to search local ads for an old IBM and got lucky the surplus dealer about 15 minutes drive away had a pallet of IBM NetVistas at $10 each. The drives were wiped but I got enough DOS on it to boot and format a floppy. I still have the machine stuffed under my desk.

If you can't get any help on your side of the pond, let me know and I'll see if it still works. (and if I can find another floppy to use)

George

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

Thanks George for the link. I have the files etc as you say it's getting a computer that will actually write to the old disks. I  am kind of holding out hope someone with a 52B can duplicate the system disk for me.  There a lots of those machines around from the eBay listings perhaps I should ask a seller if they could do me a disk etc.   

Thanks regards chris

[gslick]

A quick search revealed this site with files. http://www.hp1652bmanual.com/

These match the file I grabbed off the the Agilent FTP site a while ago when they were still available:
http://www.hp1652bmanual.com/ftp_agilent_com_pub_callpub_ddt_portbls.zip

SYSTEM_ "HP1652B/53B System        V02.11"
PVTEST_ "HP1652/53B Selftest       V02.06"

If the OP has a working 16500C and some DS/DD 3.5-inch floppies (not DS/HD) he should be able to format them in LIF format on the 16500C, and then FTP the 1652B SYSTEM_ and PVTEST_ files to that floppy in the 16500C from any modern system. No old PC necessary to mess about using LIFUTIL.EXE

A 165x series is one of the few models I haven't acquired over the years to verify myself that it is that simple to build a working 165x system disk. I seem to have managed to acquire an example of most of the other HP / Agilent logic analyzers.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

That's interesting I thought the 16500C was DOS formatted and with more modern drive that would not do LIF format. But the system file you referenced  is different from the one that came with the machine and as I said in post one I think that's  my problem.  The system version I have does not recognise the scope.

I have been getting to grips with my 16500A and it's happy to format and duplicate HD disks and doesn't even care about coverying up the hole.  The twin drives are great for duplicating disks.  I'm expecting my C machine any day now.

I kind of think unless you need the performance avoid these later machines and stick with a 31D life will be simplified.

I'm still going to shout out can anyone duplicate a there 52B system disk for me.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

The 16500C  turned up today but was dead on arrival. Just getting a pathetic wailing noise from the CRT section.  Will take a look at the power supply over the weekend.  The case was also banged up pretty bad so just ordered another as a parts machine that has a good case and all the cables and pods etc. 

All The Gear No Idea 

[gslick]

The 16500C  turned up today but was dead on arrival. Just getting a pathetic wailing noise from the CRT section.  Will take a look at the power supply over the weekend.  The case was also banged up pretty bad so just ordered another as a parts machine that has a good case and all the cables and pods etc. 

All The Gear No Idea 

The 16500A, 16500B, and 16500C all share the same power supply, CRT, and main chassis and top, bottom, and side panel components. The CPU boards, front and rear panels, floppy drives, and some internal cables and brackets differ between the three. HP sold an E2479A upgrade kit that would upgrade a 16500A or 16500B to a 16500C which supplied only the parts that differ.

If you have a working 16500A and a dead and banged up 16500C you should be able to build a working 16500C if it is just the power supply and/or CRT of the 16500C that is dead. Removing the power supply from the 16500A and swapping it into the 16500C for testing or permanent replacement is not too complicated. You don't need much other than T10, T15, and T25 Torx screwdrivers. It is not too much more difficult to also swap the CRT, it just take a bit more disassembly and reassembly. I've done this a few times and for the most part you can figure it out without even looking at the service manuals, although looking at the service manuals does help.

Attached is the E2479A upgrade manual which has some helpful information about the parts that differ between a 16500A or 16500B and a 16500C along with some diagrams and disassembly and reassembly notes.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

Are yes but you were forgetting my basic stupidity and greed for just buying more test gear. No but seriously thanks I like the 16500A and I want a working 16500C in my collection as well. I just ordered another C as a parts machine hopefully I will get a working C in the end. I think it's something in the CRT section or perhaps bad line output I'm sure there's some TV experts here to hold my hand. Just rendering a video at the moment showing both machine. I think I will make the C a repair video on my YT and list a a new repair thread on the forum.

Thanks again for your very complete and kind reply.

My very best regards Chris

[texaspyro]

FYI,  once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away, I dumped a LIF format disk sector-by-sector.  It seems to be basically DOS format with pairs of bytes swapped... at least for the boot sectors.

Oh, and all you folks working on old test equipment...  it is one of the 0x08 deadly sins not to have a computer with a floppy drive.  ALL my machines have floppy drives, except for the couple that need the USB floppy drive.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

I have no idea what this means but still mightily impressed!

[grumpydoc]

FYI,  once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away, I dumped a LIF format disk sector-by-sector.  It seems to be basically DOS format with pairs of bytes swapped... at least for the boot sectors.

Oh, and all you folks working on old test equipment...  it is one of the 0x08 deadly sins not to have a computer with a floppy drive.  ALL my machines have floppy drives, except for the couple that need the USB floppy drive.

Gosh, I don't think I've put a floppy drive into a machine this century - OK, maybe this century but definitely not in the last 10 years.

I do have quite a few drives lying around but they really are not much use in a modern machine. However, I will admit to having a USB floppy drive as I needed to be able to write floppies containing updated firmware for my LeCroy 'scopes.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

I have a guy works for me in his 20s and he had never seen a 3.5 floppy before he saw one on my desk whatever did we do before multi gig USB flash drives

[texaspyro]

I do have quite a few drives lying around but they really are not much use in a modern machine.

Until you need to work on an old machine...  and I live in the Land of the Obsolete.   All my Windoze machines run XP (but NEVER connected to that big, scary internet thingy).   I've been thinking about installing that new fangled Windoze 7 thingy on one of them.   And... get off my lawn you young whippersnappers!  I've got paper tape and ain't afraid to use it!

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

Ok should have done a video first perhaps but here see the problem.  I think I just need to outright just ask can anyone make me a system disk as I don't really want to buy 15 old computer in the hope one may actually work.

Thanks Regards Chris

https://youtu.be/oJQNJxtMKmY

[gslick]

Ok should have done a video first perhaps but here see the problem.  I think I just need to outright just ask can anyone make me a system disk as I don't really want to buy 15 old computer in the hope one may actually work.

Your best bet instead of buying an old PC and starting yet another project would be to fix the 16500C, maybe by swapping the CRT from the 16500A, and then using the 16500C to create the floppy disk for the 1652B.

Another option, do you have a PC with a GPIB interface? If so you might be able to download the 1652B system files to a floppy in the 16500A from a PC through the GPIB interface.

I wrote a simple program several years ago to download files to the hard drive of a 16500B or 16500C through the GPIB interface from a PC running Windows with a NatInst GPIB interface. If I were going to do that now I would probably use PyVISA instead of C to support any GPIB interface supported by PyVISA. Might also have to tweak it slightly for the 16500A since the :MMEM:DOWNLOAD command file type codes are slightly different between the 16500A and the 16500B/C.

I would create a 1652B system disk for you myself, but it would probably longer for you to get it from the US than it should take you to get set up to create a disk yourself.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

Actually that's really interesting. I have just bought one of the China clone GPIB  USB interfaces to drive my HP distortion analyser. But I have never used GPIB so that may just be a bridge to far for me at the moment.  I thought the 500C was a DOS based file system are you saying it will do LIF.   I have spoken to the guy who sold me the shipping damaged 500C and he going to send me a replacement CRT Section and I will swap out  when it arrives.   I actually got a second C coming as it was to cheap to refuse but its condition is unknown but is loaded with cards and cables grabbers etc.

I may pick you brains a bit more about the GPIB option once I dipped my toes in with the HP Distortion analyser.

To be honest Thanks for  your previous help with the 500A I'm actually quite liking now and getting used to the menu system. You do need a good memory of what functions live where.  I'm not a demanding user just like playing with vintage tech and also love the HP1631D it has a scope and no enjoy system disk requirement.

Thanks Best regards chris

Busted 16500C

https://youtu.be/fDUq-qGJt6o

https://youtu.be/L97pajQgxXg

[texaspyro]

When aligning the color monitor in the 16500x, I seem to remember that the manual says to face the machine west...  I don't remember which end faces west.

[gslick]

I thought the 500C was a DOS based file system are you saying it will do LIF.

The 16500B and 16500C use a DOS based file system for the internal hard drive. For floppy disks they support both DOS and LIF formats.

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/16500-97023.pdf

HP 16500C/16501A Logic Analysis System User’s Reference, Publication number 16500-97023

Chapter 4: Working with Files
Formatting a Disk

The Format operation initializes new flexible disks for use in the analyzer as well as reformats the hard drive. The analyzer will format double-sided, double density or high density flexible disks in both LIF and DOS formats. The analyzer does not support single-sided formats.

To format a flexible disk, perform the following steps:

• Insert the flexible disk to format into the disk drive.
  
• Select Format Disk.
  When Format is selected, the disk directory is displayed. UNSUPPORTED FORMAT appears if the disk is a new, unformatted disk. This is normal; continue the format operation.
  
• Select the Format type field, and select either LIF or DOS.
  The analyzer recognizes a variety of sector sizes for LIF disks. However, when formatting LIF disks, the analyzer only creates 1024-byte sectors. When formatting DOS disks, the analyzer creates 512-byte sectors.
  
• Select the Size field and choose the appropriate size.
  Use 720 KByte for double density disks, and 1.44 MByte for high density disks. If you choose the wrong one, the disk will be badly formatted and the message UNSUPPORTED FORMAT appears when the disk directory is read. Double-density disks have only a write protect tab. High-density disks have a write protect tab and a hole on the opposite edge of the disk.
  

Or you could also format a floppy on the 1652B and then insert it into the 16500C and it should automatically detect it as a LIF format floppy and access it appropriately.

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

Hi Many thanks for the very complete reply regarding the C it looks like this would be a good option. I have found a couple of people willing to try and use the HP utility to program a disk for me.  I also like the idea of trying to copy the file over the GPIB and would like to try this also for my interrest.


I will report back when I done a bit more investigating at my end

Many Thanks

Regards Chris

[z80tw]

I had a HP1652B couple years back and still have a HP1650A (the sony 3.5" 600 RPM floppy disk drive have been replaced by a converted 300 RPM FDD),
I might still have couple copies of HP1652B system disks,let me know if you are interested.
(I live in Taiwan)

Jack

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

I had a HP1652B couple years back and still have a HP1650A (the sony 3.5" 600 RPM floppy disk drive have been replaced by a converted 300 RPM FDD),
I might still have couple copies of HP1652B system disks,let me know if you are interested.
(I live in Taiwan)

Jack

Yeh I'm really interested like someone trying to pull a snow boarder off their sister.  Please let me know if you can find them thanks. Regards Chris

[z80tw]

I had a HP 1653B ,not HP1652B,sorry,but they might use same system software.
I found the system software for HP1652B/53B,Ver.2.11(2.06),01652-13505.for 2DD FDD.
I can't find The test software PVTEST_  today.you don't need the test software to boot up your 1652B.
contact me by email if you want the system disks.

Jack

[AllTheGearNoIdea]

I had a HP 1653B ,not HP1652B,sorry,but they might use same system software.
I found the system software for HP1652B/53B,Ver.2.11(2.06),01652-13505.for 2DD FDD.
I can't find The test software PVTEST_  today.you don't need the test software to boot up your 1652B.
contact me by email if you want the system disks.

Jack

Hi Jack

That would be really useful. I have sent you a PM as I could not get the email to working as my iPad browser doesn't like it for some reason.  I have copied you my email and contact details.

Many Thanks Regards Chris