Author Topic: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?  (Read 8168 times)

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Offline hussamaldean

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is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« on: February 18, 2018, 06:09:21 am »
I am planning to buy this oscilloscope
the question is, am I able to hack it ?

Regards
 

Offline sycho123321

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 06:11:14 am »
Yes, you just use your serial number and riglol.
-KD9A
 

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 06:44:00 am »
It now comes with all the decoding options for free. The only thing you need to hack is the bandwidth.
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 07:38:00 am »
Is there something different about the DS1054Z-B like what is does the -B mean?
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 09:37:18 am »
Maybe it is a made up model by TEquipment to designate it as a demo unit.  In any event, TEquipment shows it as discontinued.

https://www.tequipment.net/Rigol/DS1054Z-B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/

Nothing about it at Rigolna.com
 

Offline hussamaldean

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2018, 03:53:43 am »
I ordered one and how can I know if the received one is original ?
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2018, 04:06:36 am »
I think rstofer is right, the -B is just added by Tequipment.net to differentiate between a new one and an open-box one.  Nobody would be crazy enough to try and sell a fake DS1054Z, especially not Tequipment.net who I've bought stuff from before, they are a legitimate company that has always been reasonable to deal with.

I'm just hoping that mine comes with probes.

Being a total and utter cheapskate, I did get the 6% Tequiment.net discount so I only paid $295 for it; I couldn't resist.  I already own a Rigol MSO2072A and it's been a good scope, the serial decode is a bit slow but it does the job.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2018, 03:02:37 pm »
If you look at Dave's teardown of the DS-1054Z you'll see that the input is entirely built of discrete components.  What do you think the chances are that all those random combinations of parts fed off reels in the pick and place machine will all combine to meet the 100 MHz spec of a DS1104Z?  Do you really think that Rigol will rework all the units that don't quite meet the DS1104Z specs?  If they do, why don't they sell license keys to upgrade the BW?

These are NOT Keysight, Tektronix or Rohde & Schwartz instruments.  They are built to sell at the lowest possible price.  Lots of people have "hacked" the scopes to be "100 MHz BW".  I've not seen anyone demonstrate that the result actually has that bandwidth.  However, Leo Bodnar has an excellent little fast edge pulser for sale which will allow you to measure what you got from the factory and what you have after the "hack".

I bought a GW Instek GDS-2072E.  It's supposed to be a 70 MHz scope.  In fact it does well over 100 MHz, but the top of the step is rather ugly.  It easily meets a 70 MHz BW spec and probably 100 MHz.  But it definitely does not meet a 200 MHz spec.  You can see some comparisons here:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yet-another-fast-edge-pulse-generator/msg1432180/#msg1432180

BW is  calculated using  0.35/rise time from 10% to 90% of the step.  Of the three, the DS1102E has the best step response in my view.  R&S advocates a Gaussian step response which I agree with even though I don't own one of their scopes.  The overshoot is a consequence of marketing pushing the BW spec as high as they can get away with. 

The Rigols are good scopes.  Everyone's scope has compromises.  But expecting that you can get a 100 MHz scope by buying a 50 MHz scope and "hacking" it is not realistic unless it's a scope for which the vendor sells BW upgrades as license keys.

The entire thread is quite educational.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2018, 09:53:16 pm »
If you look at Dave's teardown of the DS-1054Z you'll see that the input is entirely built of discrete components.

Just like most other DSOs.

What do you think the chances are that all those random combinations of parts fed off reels in the pick and place machine will all combine to meet the 100 MHz spec of a DS1104Z?

I think that chances of that are much higher than the chances of falling neatly into the 50-100Mhz bandwidth range.

It's much more likely that a 'scope that fails at 100Mhz also fails at 50Mhz.

Do you really think that Rigol will rework all the units that don't quite meet the DS1104Z specs?

You seem to believe that a Rigol 100MHz 'scope is right on the edge, borderline pass/fail, no wiggle room at all in the tolerances...

I bought a GW Instek GDS-2072E.  It's supposed to be a 70 MHz scope.  In fact it does well over 100 MHz

...and at the same time that a GW Instek 70MHz isn't.

How do you hold those two beliefs in your head at the same time?  :wtf:

Lots of people have "hacked" the scopes to be "100 MHz BW".  I've not seen anyone demonstrate that the result actually has that bandwidth.

You haven't looked very hard.

FWIW: Normally the measured bandwidth is about 130MHz.

why don't they sell license keys to upgrade the BW?

Only the Rigol marketing department knows that for sure.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 09:59:41 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2018, 10:05:54 pm »
I ordered one and how can I know if the received one is original ?

You can simply take that for granted. I am not aware of any reports at all of "fake" Rigol scopes. If it says "Rigol" on the box and behaves like an oscilloscope, I think it is safe to assume that it's a genuine Rigol.

(Those are low-cost scopes, after all. If someone really thought there was money to be made by counterfeiting scopes, they would probably buy Rigol hardware, make their own Keysight-style enclosures, patch the on-screen logo in the firmware, and try to pass it off as a Keysight. No point in faking the cheap stuff...)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2018, 10:33:42 pm »
I ordered one and how can I know if the received one is original ?
You can simply take that for granted. I am not aware of any reports at all of "fake" Rigol scopes.

Yes, the idea is ridiculous.

Cloning a Chinese-manufactured oscilloscope where they already counted every last bean on the production line? Not going to happen.

Edit: Added the word "yes" for clarity
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 10:50:04 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2018, 10:39:05 pm »
The idea is ridiculous.
Cloning a Chinese-manufactured oscilloscope where they already counted every last bean on the production line? Not going to happen.

Didn't I just say that? "No point in faking the cheap stuff"?
Well, those 7000+ posts don't come out of thin air... (Or maybe some of them do.)  :P
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2018, 10:47:59 pm »
The idea is ridiculous.
Cloning a Chinese-manufactured oscilloscope where they already counted every last bean on the production line? Not going to happen.
Didn't I just say that?

Yes, I'm agreeing with you.

(at least I though I was)

Try drinking less coffee.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2018, 03:21:07 am »
@fungus

Did you look at the step responses I linked to?  The 2072E step is not very good even if the rise time indicates  more than 70 MHz BW. There are a fair number of specs besides BW that a DSO must meet.  I do not consider the 2072E a 100+ Mhz DSO even if the rise time indicates higher BW.  It's a 70 MHz scope I bought to use for developing FOSS FW for Zynq based DSOs.  I had the good fortune to get it from Amazon for less than the price of my Zybo Z7-20 dev board.

If evaluations of scope performance before and after "hacking" are so common why have I never seen one?  Provide a link.  I've seen a lot of claims, but I've never seen even a step response, much less a full performance check.  A cal lab evaluation would cost almost as much as a new DSO, so it's quite unlikely that anyone will ever do it unless someone like Dave does.

I very much doubt that top tier scopes use entirely discrete inputs.  They do all use some discretes,  but that's a different matter.    I don't have one to open up, but I can't imagine trying to justify using all discretes for the input amplifier of a 500 MHz DSO when there are ICs that will do that consistently. 

Try building an amplifier which is flat from DC to 100 MHz or above.  If you get the first one to work build a second one and compare the results.  You'll find it quite educational.  There are no perfect parts.  And tight tolerance parts are expensive.

I've repaired several analog scopes including a Tek 465.  Doing that has given me a very healthy respect for the problems posed by the front end of a good scope.  If you read the service manual for something like a 465, you'll see lots of parts with "selected" next to the part number.

But if you want to trust that  a hacked DS1054Z meets all the specs of a DS1104Z be my guest.  Without a lot of test gear and time, you'll never know the difference.
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2018, 03:31:27 am »
Back to the question of the OP, yes the Rigol DS1054Z is still hackable.

For deeper questions like:
- does the bandwidth hack actually do anything other than show a placebo number on the display? or
- what is the meaning to life, the universe, and everything

the answer is 42.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2018, 05:52:51 am »
If evaluations of scope performance before and after "hacking" are so common why have I never seen one?

Beats me.   :popcorn:

Provide a link.

The first couple of hits for a google search on these forums are:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pulse-generator-rise-time-and-rigol-ds1054z-bandwidth/

« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 05:54:43 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2018, 01:35:00 pm »
Wow, I actually read through all those links and here's my conclusions:

1. The DS1054Z already has a -3dB bandwidth of > 50 MHz unhacked
2. Most DS1054Zs have a -3dB bandwidth of ~135 MHz bandwidth-hacked
3. The DS1054Z is a lot of performance for not a lot of money
4. Some people just like to tell you that you're wrong about <insert any subject here>
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2018, 09:55:49 pm »
Just got back home after a vacation and my DS1054Z has arrived from Tequipment.  Everything looks good, it came with 4 x PVP2150 probes, a power cord, USB cable, and manual. 

Mine is SW Vn 00.04.04.SP3 and board Vn 0.1.4.
Everything has worked as expected, I'm a happy chappy.

[EDIT] After applying DSER, the -3dB point seemed to be around 150 MHz on a straight coax BNC-BNC cable with generator and scope set to high impedance; there was a slight dip at 100 MHz but it came back up before falling again at 150 MHz.  The scope was still usable to look at sine signals at 165 MHz.  This was 1 channel only so 1 GSps.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 06:03:09 am by Gandalf_Sr »
 
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Offline ddd8130dr

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 12:59:15 pm »
I just purchased the DS1054Z three days ago and tried using the rigol site to get the unlock key.  When i tried it, I got an error message that the key was illegal.  I followed the instructions a second time and got the same message.  I cannot unlock my scope.  running 04.04.SP3

Any suggestions????
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 03:01:24 pm »
I just purchased the DS1054Z three days ago and tried using the rigol site to get the unlock key.  When i tried it, I got an error message that the key was illegal.  I followed the instructions a second time and got the same message.  I cannot unlock my scope.  running 04.04.SP3

Any suggestions????

Please see this thread for troubleshooting suggestions:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-hack-still-good/

In particular:

- Make sure you do not misspell any letters when entering the serial number and key.
- Refresh the RIGLOL web page and try to generate the key again.
- Try another browser and try to generate the key again.
- Download the executable for the key generator and run it locally.

The serial number is also printed on a sticker on the scope's back -- easier to read than the small on-screen letters.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 03:04:00 pm by ebastler »
 
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Offline ddd8130dr

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2018, 07:53:06 am »
Thanks for the advice.  I've been in contact with RIGOL and trying to get some information about License Activation.  I have not completed that process, and maybe that is why the "hack" does not work - I don't know.

Also, I am working with the seller to get the authorized "SOFTWARE CERTIFICATE KEY".  I need this key in order to complete the license Activation process.  So much to do with these new products that I never had to do with older equipment.

BTW: I double checked the SN on the back of the scope, the box, and from the System read-out on the scope.  that number checks and I then verified entry when using the Riglol 1.03d site to generate the key. 

If i'm doing something wrong, I don't know what it is.  If it is because I have not activated my license, then that would explain the problem.

In any event, I will update this post when I get the problem fixed.

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.  :phew:  8)
 

Offline TK

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2018, 08:48:02 am »
I just purchased the DS1054Z three days ago and tried using the rigol site to get the unlock key.  When i tried it, I got an error message that the key was illegal.  I followed the instructions a second time and got the same message.  I cannot unlock my scope.  running 04.04.SP3

Any suggestions????
I did not know that rigol was providing unlock keys to hack their scopes
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2018, 02:35:30 pm »
Thanks for the advice.  I've been in contact with RIGOL and trying to get some information about License Activation.  I have not completed that process, and maybe that is why the "hack" does not work - I don't know.

Also, I am working with the seller to get the authorized "SOFTWARE CERTIFICATE KEY".  I need this key in order to complete the license Activation process.  So much to do with these new products that I never had to do with older equipment.

Hang on -- we may be talking about two different things here.

This thread is about "hacking" the DS1000Z scope, by entering an unlock key obtained inofficially via the site http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/. In contrast, you may be referring to an unlock key which came with your scope, as part of the "all options included for free" bundle which Rigol has recently offered?

Please clarify/confirm. If it's about the free key from Rigol, I am not sure what they provide and how the process works. Maybe someone who recently bought a scope with the options bundle can chime in?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2018, 03:34:59 pm »
If it's about the free key from Rigol, I am not sure what they provide and how the process works. Maybe someone who recently bought a scope with the options bundle can chime in?

They give you an official piece of paper with a number on it. You then go to this page:

http://licenseen.rigol.com/CustomerService/ProductRight_EN

This generates a number for you which you enter into the 'scope.

Riglol does the same, except it skips the piece of paper.

If i'm doing something wrong, I don't know what it is.


Maybe confusing a number '0' with a letter 'O' or something.

If it is because I have not activated my license, then that would explain the problem.


Nah.
 
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Offline bkedwards

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Re: is Rigol DS1054Z still hackable ?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2018, 05:25:40 am »
    I am not sure if your registration problem has been solved.  I did find that it seemed to be sensitive to the browser and it would get into a state where it would get an invalid code or serial number.  When it is correct it will come up with the correct software option (like the no charge software option listen when you ordered it during the current promotion).  I found that the the serial number and code they sent you had to be manually typed in, no cut and paste.  Also you won't always see extra characters in the form on the website so you won't know that it is wrong.
 


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