Author Topic: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?  (Read 13072 times)

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Offline mjs7Topic starter

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Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« on: March 27, 2017, 07:04:51 pm »
I'm looking for an oscilloscope to display various signals around a physics lab. No fancy features are required (signal decoding, FFT, etc.), but I will be adjusting the waveform a lot so I need a responsive UI. I've heard that the Rigol 1054Z takes a second or two to update after moving the waveform up and down, which would be a big annoyance for me. In comparison, I have a GW Instek GDS-2104E which updates instantly, but it costs more than 3x as much.

Usually I buy used analog scopes off Ebay, but they often turn out to be duds. Is there a modern digital scope in the price range of the Rigol with responsive controls? Thanks.
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2017, 08:00:49 pm »
I'm not sure what you've heard, but 1054Z feels as responsive as most scopes out there. At least it does not feel slow to me personally, and I worked with a lot of different scopes.

I'm also not sure why you are adjusting things that much :)
Alex
 

Online wraper

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2017, 08:05:14 pm »
In comparison, I have a GW Instek GDS-2104E which updates instantly, but it costs more than 3x as much.
Then why don't you look on GW Instek GDS-1000B series?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2017, 08:05:51 pm »
How about the GDS-1000B series? Basically the same as the GDS2000E series but without decoding and a smaller display and thus cheaper.
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Online wraper

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2017, 08:07:07 pm »
I'm not sure what you've heard, but 1054Z feels as responsive as most scopes out there. At least it does not feel slow to me personally, and I worked with a lot of different scopes.

I'm also not sure why you are adjusting things that much :)
Don't have 1054Z but even DS2000 series have quiet laggy controls.
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2017, 08:09:29 pm »
Don't have 1054Z but even DS2000 series have quiet laggy controls.
Well, by some measure all scopes have laggy controls. I would not say 1054Z much worse than the average scope out there.
Alex
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2017, 08:21:32 pm »
Don't have 1054Z but even DS2000 series have quiet laggy controls.
Well, by some measure all scopes have laggy controls. I would not say 1054Z much worse than the average scope out there.
let's just say it's on par with tektronix..

well that's not true. a tek is actually capable of updating the trace while moving it, so you can tell when to stop
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2017, 08:32:13 pm »
If you don't need digital features, then try old analog oscilloscopes. Nothing can be more responsive.
Also, they can be way cheaper then a new digital scope.
 
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Online DaJMasta

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2017, 08:59:29 pm »
Maybe this has to do with the timebase setting you're using?

Even my old DS1052E was pretty quick in at very small time divisions, but like any other scope, if waits for a full frame worth of data to be captured to display it, so using divisions of hundreds of milliseconds or more or using the highest memory depths can take more time to update.

There is definitely some variability in responsiveness to controls, but most models are fairly reasonable as it's an important usability feature and that performance depends on the architecture of the scope, so it's not like all of one brand's scopes will be superior or something.  I'd advise that you take a look around and when you find a scope you think is suitable, then look for videos that include people using it to test or experiment.  That will give you the best idea of how responsive it is to inputs aside from trying them in person.
 

Offline mjs7Topic starter

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2017, 11:31:39 pm »
Great, I didn't know that the GDS-1000B series was so similar to the GDS-2000E. I just bought a 1054B -- if it's as nice as my other Instek for <$400 that's pretty incredible. Thanks for the help.
 

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 12:23:02 am »
I've heard that the Rigol 1054Z takes a second or two to update after moving the waveform up and down, which would be a big annoyance for me.
They can be slow to respond if you've set a long memory depth or enabled maths or display settings vector/dots/interpolation/filtering so its often up to the user to balance performance to their preference. This has been common on most digital scopes for some time.
 

Online David Hess

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 01:57:20 am »
Even my old DS1052E was pretty quick in at very small time divisions, but like any other scope, if waits for a full frame worth of data to be captured to display it, so using divisions of hundreds of milliseconds or more or using the highest memory depths can take more time to update.

That is a reason for the displayed waveform not to be updated but not a reason for the controls to be delayed as well.

Some of the oldest DSOs did not have this problem.  The ancient Tektronix 2230/2232 (1) at 50ms/div with a 10 division record takes 0.5 second between updates like it should but the position controls update in real time and Tektronix deliberately programmed this behavior in because they recognized that user interface responsiveness is important in an instrument which has both digital and analog operating modes.  (2) Rigol is just cheap but so are a lot of other modern DSO designs.

I think people have just gotten used to latency in user interfaces making it the new normal.  My HP50g calculator is roughly 200 times faster than the HP48g which it replaced but has much higher interface latency.  There have been efforts in the past to bring awareness to this as a problem but it has gotten much worse since about the time of managed computer languages like JAVA when they cannot provide real time operation and remote computing when it suffers from horrible communication and interface latency.

(1) I am not suggesting that the Tektronix 2230/2232 is suitable for mjs7's application.  I am just using it as an example where the manufacturer knew responsiveness would be an issue and designed with that in mind.  Another good example is the WordStar word processing application where screen refreshes are interrupted by user keystrokes.

(2) I'm talking about the vertical position controls and the cursor controls which operate through the CPU in storage mode.  The horizontal position control literally operates at the speed of light since it works in the analog domain and does not go through the CPU.  Tektronix actually added a separate circuit path to the vertical position controls so they both operate as analog offset controls *and* get read by the CPU so it can update the existing display to match the future offset although they did not get it quite right.  Modern DSOs already knows the state of their vertical position controls yet they do not bother updating the screen.  WTF?
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 02:16:27 am »
My DS2000 Rigol is definitely a bit on the annoying side when it comes to responsiveness, in some scenarios more than others. You get used to it and it's not an issue, but you definitely notice it once you use a nicer scope. I think the bigger issues is that the encoders all have linear speed. No acceleration when spinning really fast. So you can sometimes find yourself just spinning the encoders like a mad man, to me this is a far bigger issue when it comes to fast scope use OP is interested in.

Rohde & Schwarz HMO scopes look responsive and quick to get around, perhaps the latest GW-Instek scopes, or Agilent/Keysight scopes all look very responsive. I'd give those a look.
 

Offline genghisnico13

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 03:32:07 am »
Maybe you should check out the new keysight 1000x series. I haven't used them personally, but they are comparable in price to the rigols and they seem to be as responsive as keysight's higher end models. This new series uses the same MegaZoom ASIC.

Edit: I just realized that you already made a purchase :palm:
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 03:37:45 am by genghisnico13 »
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2017, 05:37:27 am »
I've heard that the Rigol 1054Z takes a second or two to update after moving the waveform up and down

That's simply not true.

Watching any of the hundreds of videos on youtube will show this.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 05:39:23 am by Fungus »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2017, 07:31:29 am »

The ancient Tektronix 2230/2232


That's one of the best scopes ever.
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Offline JPortici

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2017, 10:47:35 am »
I've heard that the Rigol 1054Z takes a second or two to update after moving the waveform up and down

That's simply not true.

Watching any of the hundreds of videos on youtube will show this.



correct, it's more half a second / 1 second
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2017, 12:00:30 pm »
correct, it's more half a second / 1 second

Nope.

It actually depends on how you turn the knob. Better technique = faster response.

See my video here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/

 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2017, 12:45:42 pm »
I'm not sure what you've heard, but 1054Z feels as responsive as most scopes out there. At least it does not feel slow to me personally, and I worked with a lot of different scopes.
my earlier scope was DS1052E. DS1054Z is way several magnitude slower in responsiveness. in another word, what you've heard about DS1000Z series UI laginess is 100% valid.

I'm also not sure why you are adjusting things that much :)
signal is too long or too big, we want to see what is off the screen, we want to maximize graticules usage in positive or negative vertical region etc. i thought i would get acquainted with DS1054Z laginess through "predictive knob fast incrementation without waiting for UI to update", i've not been that successfull, time or volt origin usually went away more than i wanted them to be, so i need to back few steps up most of the time.

It actually depends on how you turn the knob. Better technique = faster response.
See my video here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/
DS1052E doesnt need better technique, its just responsive with any technique you use. and its several magnitude better than your video demo. i remember this as crystal clear like yesterday. because i was studying just this by comparing them before i handed over my DS1052E to my brother.

having said that, my DS1052E is with my brother now, i still pick DS1054Z because its 4 channels and longer memory. something that in no way my older DS1053E can do with any imaginable technique. as the UI laginess i'll work around it with the "better technique", yet it still cant beat my earlier scope.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 12:58:34 pm by Mechatrommer »
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Offline tecman

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2017, 12:49:23 pm »
Buy a used analog scope

paul
 

Offline ci11

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2017, 01:00:12 pm »
Buy a used analog scope

paul

+1

"hybrid" scopes with measurement readouts and CRT are usually responsive and relatively inexpensive. Some measurements will not be as accurate as bench instruments but that's how it goes. Tek 2247A is what I use for exactly this purpose, it even has "hands-off" cursors so no fiddling of knobs needed to get a t, 1/t, f or 1/f reading.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 02:02:12 pm by ci11 »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2017, 01:08:15 pm »
I'm not sure what you've heard, but 1054Z feels as responsive as most scopes out there. At least it does not feel slow to me personally, and I worked with a lot of different scopes.
my earlier scope was DS1052E. DS1054Z is way several magnitude slower in responsiveness. in another word, what you've heard about DS1000Z series UI laginess is 100% valid.
There is little point in argueing over the DS1054Z. The scope the OP ordered/bought is cheaper and the OP can be sure it will work just like the scope he already owns.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online David Hess

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2017, 12:25:41 pm »
"hybrid" scopes with measurement readouts and CRT are usually responsive and relatively inexpensive. Some measurements will not be as accurate as bench instruments but that's how it goes. Tek 2247A is what I use for exactly this purpose, it even has "hands-off" cursors so no fiddling of knobs needed to get a t, 1/t, f or 1/f reading.

The 2247A series is an interesting example of this.  All of the controls operate through the processor which is what allows its automatic setup feature to work but the added latency is very small.  Most of the rotary controls use resistive potentiometers as encoders but they also implemented a form of acceleration on them so they manage both coarse and fine adjustments.  Tektronix put a lot of thought and design into the user interface.

The 2247A series would probably be my first choice if I was looking for a fast response but inexpensive oscilloscope and could not afford a suitable new DSO.  They are pretty old but unusually reliable and fully documented.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2017, 09:57:27 pm »
I'm looking for an oscilloscope to display various signals around a physics lab. No fancy features are required (signal decoding, FFT, etc.), but I will be adjusting the waveform a lot so I need a responsive UI. I've heard that the Rigol 1054Z takes a second or two to update after moving the waveform up and down, which would be a big annoyance for me. In comparison, I have a GW Instek GDS-2104E which updates instantly, but it costs more than 3x as much.

Usually I buy used analog scopes off Ebay, but they often turn out to be duds. Is there a modern digital scope in the price range of the Rigol with responsive controls? Thanks.

You really should be sticking to used analogue scopes for ease of use. Unless you need the maths capabilities of digital scopes, which in my experience will be costing many times more then the cost of a good used analogue scope.

I have now sourced 5 perfectly good working scopes on Ebay ranging from 20Mhz through to 100Mhz ones, some are dual trace and 2 of them have 4 and 3 traces respectively, 60Mhz and 100Mhz ones. The most I have paid is £130 and the least is £20 and the only repairs I have had to effect is to clean some of them up both internally and externally, replace a power on LED and just some minor calibrations to make them all perfectly useable scopes.

I have 2 x 20hz Rapid Electronics and 1 x 25Mhz Rapid Electronics, all of which are very simple and robust machines and the other two are Iwatsu 60Mhz and Goldstar 100Mhz with advanced features such as multiple traces, delay timebases etc. 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Is there a cheap oscilloscope with responsive controls?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2017, 10:03:09 pm »
Great, I didn't know that the GDS-1000B series was so similar to the GDS-2000E. I just bought a 1054B -- if it's as nice as my other Instek for <$400 that's pretty incredible. Thanks for the help.

Glad you found a solution that seems to meet your needs!
Once you have had the scope for a few days and have taken it out for a spin, maybe you could add your assessment to this thread -- does the 1000B series indeed feel "as nice as the 2000E"?
Thanks!
 


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