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Offline blueskull

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Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« on: October 14, 2015, 04:26:00 AM »
Just made the decision to get a reasonable powerful scope without paying $$$$$ to Agilent/Tek. The choice was an almost unused refurbished DS6102 with effective cal cert.

Will be shipped to me in days. At that time, I will post a review on this item. Meanwhile, there should be another shipment coming at that time, a used signal hound 4.4GHz spectrum analyzer with 4 pieces of near field EMI probes.

Thank god I am not married, so I still have money to support my expensive hobby.  ;D
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Offline Mark

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2015, 05:20:41 AM »
Can you do a review of the Signal Hound too please :D
Which probes are you getting? 
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2015, 06:08:03 AM »
Sure, I will. For the sihnal hound, I'll set up a simple rise/fall time test environment, and some simple signal gen tests.
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Offline nbritton

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2015, 08:34:23 AM »
What is the rational for getting a high bandwidth scope? What I mean is that most people on this forum say that 100 MHz is enough for them and to get the DS1054Z, and they even go as far as to say that a high bandwidth scope is useless without active probes and apparently all other sorts of gear and special circuit design steps. Even people like Dave are saying you can get by just fine with a 20 MHz analog scope. Why then do people buy high bandwidth scopes? I'm in the market for my first 'digital' scope (owned an analog prior to this) and I'm totally confused about what I should get, I have a few thousand dollars that I can spend on a scope, yet people consistently tell me the DS1054Z will satisfy all of my current and even future needs. :-//
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2015, 08:51:57 AM »
What is the rational for getting a high bandwidth scope? What I mean is that most people on this forum say that 100 MHz is enough for them and to get the DS1054Z, and they even go as far as to say that a high bandwidth scope is useless without active probes and apparently all other sorts of gear and special circuit design steps. Even people like Dave are saying you can get by just fine with a 20 MHz analog scope. Why then do people buy high bandwidth scopes? I'm in the market for my first 'digital' scope (owned an analog prior to this) and I'm totally confused about what I should get, I have a few thousand dollars that I can spend on a scope, yet people consistently tell me the DS1054Z will satisfy all of my current and even future needs. :-//

I play with differential high speed signal lines without proper serdes IP, I roll out my own FPGA IPs for communication, so I need a fast enough tool to do phase alignment.

Also, I make power converters with FPGA, and again, I need to align phases down to 100ps.

Trust me, you don't want a switcher operating at 10MHz/100A/12V with shoot through or other sorta timing issues.

I'm not particularly in to its bandwidth, but I am in to its ETS, or equivalent time sampling, which gives me 10ps time base resolution.
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Offline GlowingGhoul

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2015, 10:25:04 AM »
What is the rational for getting a high bandwidth scope? What I mean is that most people on this forum say that 100 MHz is enough for them and to get the DS1054Z, and they even go as far as to say that a high bandwidth scope is useless without active probes and apparently all other sorts of gear and special circuit design steps. Even people like Dave are saying you can get by just fine with a 20 MHz analog scope. Why then do people buy high bandwidth scopes? I'm in the market for my first 'digital' scope (owned an analog prior to this) and I'm totally confused about what I should get, I have a few thousand dollars that I can spend on a scope, yet people consistently tell me the DS1054Z will satisfy all of my current and even future needs. :-//

If you have a couple thousand set aside for a scope, I'd recommend getting something more refined than the Rigol(though it's a terrific value and a useful tool). I'm biased towards Keysight(Who, like Tek and LeCroy are throwing in a large software upgrade bundle for free at  the moment), but there are other good options out there, both new and used. I have a 3024T and it's wonderfully responsive and the high quality materials on the controls give nice tactile feedback.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 10:31:52 AM by GlowingGhoul »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2015, 10:30:35 AM »
These brands won't give me even 350m at the specified price range. I need ETS, which is not exist on any westeen brands' low cost products except for picoscope. I spent quite some time choosing between rigol and pico, and suddenly today a 50% off on ds6102 helped me made the decision.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2015, 01:02:19 PM »
Are there any suggestions for a low cost active probe? The Rigol ones are just too expensive, so I might end up getting a Rigol to Tek adapter, and use a cheap second hand Tek (FET) one. Forget about the ASIC based ones, they are just way too expensive. The Rigol 1.5GHz one costs $4200!
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Online Neganur

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2015, 03:24:56 PM »
These brands won't give me even 350m at the specified price range. I need ETS, which is not exist on any westeen brands' low cost products except for picoscope. I spent quite some time choosing between rigol and pico, and suddenly today a 50% off on ds6102 helped me made the decision.

Not sure about low cost since the DS6000 costs some 4.5k€ before vat in Germany, but I'm pretty sure the R&S RTM series has 100 GSa/s ETS and they are in that price range.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2015, 03:47:33 PM »
These brands won't give me even 350m at the specified price range. I need ETS, which is not exist on any westeen brands' low cost products except for picoscope. I spent quite some time choosing between rigol and pico, and suddenly today a 50% off on ds6102 helped me made the decision.

Not sure about low cost since the DS6000 costs some 4.5k€ before vat in Germany, but I'm pretty sure the R&S RTM series has 100 GSa/s ETS and they are in that price range.

If it is that price I won't buy it. I got it at USD3900. Don't forget how horrible VAT in EU is. With German VAT it is $6105, which is the lowest end DS6062, while in US it is $5880, with TEquipment 25% off this number reduces to $4410.

The model I got, DS6102, sells for $7880, which is $5910 after coupon. I got it at $3900, that translates to 51% off.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2015, 03:52:07 PM »
RTM2102, the R&S equivalent of DS6102, sells for EUR9020, plus a EUR945 license for memory upgrade. That is 3 times the money I spent!
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Offline Smith

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2015, 04:34:56 PM »
Bought a 6104 for work (for another department) some time ago. I was quite pleased by the device. It definetly feels quality, and reacts quite fast. Its menu and settings feel so much better and faster than our 5 year old twice as expensive tek DPO4104
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2015, 04:41:53 PM »
Bought a 6104 for work (for another department) some time ago. I was quite pleased by the device. It definetly feels quality, and reacts quite fast. Its menu and settings feel so much better and faster than our 5 year old twice as expensive tek DPO4104

My boss has a DPO4204 himself, it is so expensive that he won't allow us to touch it unless it really can not be measured by any other scopes.
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Offline nbritton

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2015, 04:44:55 PM »
The model I got, DS6102, sells for $7880, which is $5910 after coupon. I got it at $3900, that translates to 51% off.

I knew tequitment had the 25% off select Rigol gear, but what about this coupon thing? What exactly do you mean?
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2015, 05:13:16 PM »
The model I got, DS6102, sells for $7880, which is $5910 after coupon. I got it at $3900, that translates to 51% off.

I knew tequitment had the 25% off select Rigol gear, but what about this coupon thing? What exactly do you mean?

Almost, but not new. Rigol NA clearance item.
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Online Neganur

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 05:41:07 PM »
RTM2102, the R&S equivalent of DS6102, sells for EUR9020, plus a EUR945 license for memory upgrade. That is 3 times the money I spent!

I maybe would not call that equivalent (no offense Rigol :o) and you also kind of said you don't need the bandwidth but the features/specs (ETS). There's for example the RTM2022 starting at 3.3k€ And I would also recommend to look at their bargain shop and special deals. Don't take the list price for granted either, call them and tell them your story. If you're willing to spend above 4k I'm sure they can find something for you.

Why do you need so much memory btw?
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 10:26:57 PM »
+1 for a review of the DS6000. I got my DS4014 from RigolNA clearance bin and couldn't be happier by its price/performance ratio.

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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 11:24:20 PM »
Almost, but not new. Rigol NA clearance item.

Aren't they sold with just 90 days or so of warranty?

Anyways, some time ago I had the chance to try a DS6104, and wasn't very impressed. It's essentially just a larger variant of the DS4000 (more bandwidth and larger screen), with large memory but no search functionality whatsoever, and scrolling through its long memory makes it pretty slow. Also, FFT on that scope is a bad joke (only a few thousand points despite all the memory, less than many 15+yr old scopes), too. The hardware felt solid (typical Rigol) but the owner mentioned that it suffers from the same annoying bugs as the DS4000 (which he also had), and because it was sold in far lower numbers than the DS4000 it has seen even less updates than the DS4000.

Plus I would worry about support. Rigol doesn't seem to have fixed support cycles (don't expect many firmware updates after they stop selling it, which will be soon), and support overall is pretty much hit and miss (more 'miss' than 'hit').

If its very cheap and your expectations are reasonably low then it's probably an OK-ish scope, but its well below any of the scopes from the big brands (Keysight, LeCroy, R&S, even Tek) in that scope class.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 11:26:54 PM by Wuerstchenhund »
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Offline Karel

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2015, 12:21:14 AM »
We too have bought a DS6104. The price/performance ratio of it hasn't been beaten.
Overall, I like it. With two adc's we can run two channels on 5GSa/s or 4 channels on 2.5GSa/s.

Firmware is always a weak spot with Rigol. With the default fw version 00.01.04 it's impossible to use it via LAN.
The scope freezes completely. Via USB it works apart from that it's not possible to download the deep memory waveform data.

I reported the bugs three months ago and a couple of days ago we received a newer firmware (00.02.00.SP5) that solved the issue with the memory downloading
and the freezing of the scope when using LAN but as always it introduced a new bug.
When using LAN to poll for parameters and values, the scope sometimes responds with "command error" instead of the requested value.
Still, USB connection works fine.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2015, 04:01:23 AM »
RTM2102, the R&S equivalent of DS6102, sells for EUR9020, plus a EUR945 license for memory upgrade. That is 3 times the money I spent!

I maybe would not call that equivalent (no offense Rigol :o) and you also kind of said you don't need the bandwidth but the features/specs (ETS). There's for example the RTM2022 starting at 3.3k€ And I would also recommend to look at their bargain shop and special deals. Don't take the list price for granted either, call them and tell them your story. If you're willing to spend above 4k I'm sure they can find something for you.

Why do you need so much memory btw?

I can get a made in UK 250MHz pico scope for USD3000, and it offers the best in class vertical noise performance, as well as 50G ETS, while it is only 2 pounds and I can even put it in my computer bag. The vertical channel isolation, noise and SFDR outperformed all existing same price range competitors.

Provided R&S is a very good brand, the market has proved itself -- they don't sell as much as Tek and Keysight in high end market, and they don't sell as much as Rigol in mid range market, and thye don't sell as much as cheap Chinese scopes (i.e. Rigol DS1052E).

I've been in 2 top Chinese universities, 1 US state university and a couple of US companies, and never saw a single R&S. Tek is almost prevalent. Of course, in the EU it could be a complete different story.

Finally, why I chose the 1GHz BW model? Well, 2 reasons, first, I need to measure fast rising edges, therefore I bought the SA44B, to exploit the spectrum distribution and reconstruct square waveform. Since I can do this using a scope, why bother? Second, it is on sale, and it is absolute dirt cheap for its specification. I requested some test screen shots from them, and it looks quite nice in its vertical spec.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2015, 04:02:14 AM »
+1 for a review of the DS6000. I got my DS4014 from RigolNA clearance bin and couldn't be happier by its price/performance ratio.

I will. They shipped using FedEx ground, so I guess it need some time to arrive at my doorstep.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2015, 04:05:08 AM »
We too have bought a DS6104. The price/performance ratio of it hasn't been beaten.
Overall, I like it. With two adc's we can run two channels on 5GSa/s or 4 channels on 2.5GSa/s.

Firmware is always a weak spot with Rigol. With the default fw version 00.01.04 it's impossible to use it via LAN.
The scope freezes completely. Via USB it works apart from that it's not possible to download the deep memory waveform data.

I reported the bugs three months ago and a couple of days ago we received a newer firmware (00.02.00.SP5) that solved the issue with the memory downloading
and the freezing of the scope when using LAN but as always it introduced a new bug.
When using LAN to poll for parameters and values, the scope sometimes responds with "command error" instead of the requested value.
Still, USB connection works fine.

Well, DS6102 has only one ADC, so it must operate at 2.5Gsps at 2 channels. Anyway it doesn't matter to me because I will be using ETS.

The firmware was upgraded to the latest before shipping, according to their sales team.

I will see if I can discover more bugs, and include them in the review as well.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2015, 04:06:38 AM »
Almost, but not new. Rigol NA clearance item.

Aren't they sold with just 90 days or so of warranty?

Anyways, some time ago I had the chance to try a DS6104, and wasn't very impressed. It's essentially just a larger variant of the DS4000 (more bandwidth and larger screen), with large memory but no search functionality whatsoever, and scrolling through its long memory makes it pretty slow. Also, FFT on that scope is a bad joke (only a few thousand points despite all the memory, less than many 15+yr old scopes), too. The hardware felt solid (typical Rigol) but the owner mentioned that it suffers from the same annoying bugs as the DS4000 (which he also had), and because it was sold in far lower numbers than the DS4000 it has seen even less updates than the DS4000.

Plus I would worry about support. Rigol doesn't seem to have fixed support cycles (don't expect many firmware updates after they stop selling it, which will be soon), and support overall is pretty much hit and miss (more 'miss' than 'hit').

If its very cheap and your expectations are reasonably low then it's probably an OK-ish scope, but its well below any of the scopes from the big brands (Keysight, LeCroy, R&S, even Tek) in that scope class.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for.

You are right. There will never be free lunches.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2015, 04:47:58 AM »
Provided R&S is a very good brand, the market has proved itself -- they don't sell as much as Tek and Keysight in high end market, and they don't sell as much as Rigol in mid range market, and thye don't sell as much as cheap Chinese scopes (i.e. Rigol DS1052E).

Not sure what your point is. R&S only started selling any scopes in 2005 after they bought Hameg, and only started producing their own mid-range and high-end scopes since 2009, so obviously they sold less as Tek and HP/Agilent/Keysight who are selling scopes for many decades. And since they only more recently introduced their own bottom-of-the-barrel scope it's no surprise that they have sold less than Rigol of its DS1052E. At least in Europe R&S sells more of their scopes than Tek does these days, which isn't surprising as most of their scope offerings are pretty pale in comparison with the other big brands. Plus R&S has a long-earned reputation of producing top-notch gear, not just through their spectrum analyzers, test receivers and other RF gear but also because their broadcasting kit which is pretty much standard equipment around the world, plus all the civil and military kit they make.

Just saying.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2015, 05:42:02 AM »
Provided R&S is a very good brand, the market has proved itself -- they don't sell as much as Tek and Keysight in high end market, and they don't sell as much as Rigol in mid range market, and thye don't sell as much as cheap Chinese scopes (i.e. Rigol DS1052E).

Not sure what your point is. R&S only started selling any scopes in 2005 after they bought Hameg, and only started producing their own mid-range and high-end scopes since 2009, so obviously they sold less as Tek and HP/Agilent/Keysight who are selling scopes for many decades. And since they only more recently introduced their own bottom-of-the-barrel scope it's no surprise that they have sold less than Rigol of its DS1052E. At least in Europe R&S sells more of their scopes than Tek does these days, which isn't surprising as most of their scope offerings are pretty pale in comparison with the other big brands. Plus R&S has a long-earned reputation of producing top-notch gear, not just through their spectrum analyzers, test receivers and other RF gear but also because their broadcasting kit which is pretty much standard equipment around the world, plus all the civil and military kit they make.

Just saying.

My point is, if it is not as competitive at least in US market, why bother since for the same spec sheet they sell for 3x the price.

Without offense, but I think, again, without offense, many EU brands hold their premium price ONLY because import tax and other political and regulatory requirements that protect them. In an open fair market they do not compete well.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 05:48:04 AM by blueskull »
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