Author Topic: Keysight 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Maximum Allowable Voltage change notice.  (Read 51492 times)

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Offline Cerebus

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Any customers who require 1000VDC/750VAC testing capabilities can contact a Keysight Customer Contact Center and reference the service note number.

I contacted Keysight Germany today and had a very nice conversation but they could not offer anything new, except for:

1. There is no problem using my meters for up to 1000 V DC and my meters will all be covered by full warranty, even if something should go wrong.

2. The problem is related to two components on the PCB that are too close in proximity and because of this it requires a design change of the PCB.

There, that's the thing we needed to be told all along. It's a clearance/creepage issue between two components.

Given that information at the start, most of us would have gone, "Ah, OK not a major problem for most practical purposes, I can work around that". It's an engineering explanation of the problem that we can understand and almost instantly answers the questions that most of us would have about the practical implications of this. The only way that could be better would be if they named the components and told us the actual measurements versus the required measurements.

Dear Keysight marketing/lawyers - next time you have an issue like this, instead of messing your customers about with cryptic specification changes that hide the real issue, go and ask your engineers "If you personally were a customer, ignoring anything you might think as one of our employees, what would you want to be told?" and then tell your customers exactly the answers that the engineers asked for.
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Offline LabSpokane

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Any customers who require 1000VDC/750VAC testing capabilities can contact a Keysight Customer Contact Center and reference the service note number.

I contacted Keysight Germany today and had a very nice conversation but they could not offer anything new, except for:

1. There is no problem using my meters for up to 1000 V DC and my meters will all be covered by full warranty, even if something should go wrong.

2. The problem is related to two components on the PCB that are too close in proximity and because of this it requires a design change of the PCB.

There, that's the thing we needed to be told all along. It's a clearance/creepage issue between two components.

Given that information at the start, most of us would have gone, "Ah, OK not a major problem for most practical purposes, I can work around that". It's an engineering explanation of the problem that we can understand and almost instantly answers the questions that most of us would have about the practical implications of this. The only way that could be better would be if they named the components and told us the actual measurements versus the required measurements.

Exactly this.  ^

Just tell us the real story and we'll figure it out. I have a very different view of bureaucrats moving the regulatory goalposts (which the EU needs to put the kibosh on immediately) versus an actual design defect.
 

Offline Cerebus

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I have a very different view of bureaucrats moving the regulatory goalposts (which the EU needs to put the kibosh on immediately) versus an actual design defect.

Someone earlier in the thread was mis-attributing the IEC standards as EU ones. IEC stands for International Electrotechnical Commission which is not a EU body. The IEC has existed since 1906, the EEC/EU merely since 1957.
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Offline LabSpokane

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I have a very different view of bureaucrats moving the regulatory goalposts (which the EU needs to put the kibosh on immediately) versus an actual design defect.

Someone earlier in the thread was mis-attributing the IEC standards as EU ones. IEC stands for International Electrotechnical Commission which is not a EU body. The IEC has existed since 1906, the EEC/EU merely since 1957.

I took it on authority from earlier in the thread that this was an EU driven change. Apologies. That said this feels like an arbitrary ego trip by someone in a rule making body.
 

Offline Cerebus

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That said this feels like an arbitrary ego trip by someone in a rule making body.

If my experience of how these things are done is anything to go by, it wasn't a 'someone' but six tortuous committee meetings held in six different cities over 10 months. Sometimes these things are arbitrary, sometimes they are intelligently arrived at from experience with earlier versions of a standard that have been in the field for some years. Judging which is which is an open problem.
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Offline LabSpokane

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That said this feels like an arbitrary ego trip by someone in a rule making body.

If my experience of how these things are done is anything to go by, it wasn't a 'someone' but six tortuous committee meetings held in six different cities over 10 months.

Oh, I didn't realize you were on my project team. Welcome to the party.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 03:35:41 pm by LabSpokane »
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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I have a very different view of bureaucrats moving the regulatory goalposts (which the EU needs to put the kibosh on immediately) versus an actual design defect.

Someone earlier in the thread was mis-attributing the IEC standards as EU ones. IEC stands for International Electrotechnical Commission which is not a EU body. The IEC has existed since 1906, the EEC/EU merely since 1957.

I took it on authority from earlier in the thread that this was an EU driven change. Apologies. That said this feels like an arbitrary ego trip by someone in a rule making body.


Sorry, apologies, that's been me, obviously.

I was mislead by the English / French format of these standards, and that the headquarters is in Geneva, Switzerland.

The U.S. is of course full member of this organization.

Frank
 

Offline FivePoint03

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As I've already said, I use 1000V input regularly for design verification, and here is my response from Keysight.  To say I'm not happy would be a massive understatement.

Service note 34465A states:-
"For customers that still require 1000VDC/750VAC, please contact Keysight Customer Contact Center and reference to the service note number."

Here is the response when I contacted keysight:-
"Dear ,
Thank you for your enquiry.
After consulting with our Repair Centre Manager he has advised that the service notes states “The product maintains its performance accuracy and no failures where observed when units were tested up to 1000VDC. ”
So, although we are not recommending usage above 600V if it can be avoided, there have been no identifiable risks associated with using it from 600V to 1000V.
I hope that helps.
Should you have any further questions please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards

Keysight Technologies UK Limited"
 

Offline agdr

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As I've already said, I use 1000V input regularly for design verification, and here is my response from Keysight.

WOW!  :wtf:  That is unreal. 

Well their reply just ruled out buying a Keysight meter for me.  I had decided the Fluke 8846A's were getting a bit old in design but I'm back to the Fluke.  I won't deal with customer (dis)service like that.  Pretty clear they are trying to avoid a costly recall, without realizing the damage they are doing to their brand makes the cost of a proper recall look like a drop in the bucket. 

Thanks for sharing!
 

Offline bson

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Ask them what they DO recommend you do.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Any customers who require 1000VDC/750VAC testing capabilities can contact a Keysight Customer Contact Center and reference the service note number.

I contacted Keysight Germany today and had a very nice conversation but they could not offer anything new, except for:

1. There is no problem using my meters for up to 1000 V DC and my meters will all be covered by full warranty, even if something should go wrong.

2. The problem is related to two components on the PCB that are too close in proximity and because of this it requires a design change of the PCB.

There, that's the thing we needed to be told all along. It's a clearance/creepage issue between two components.

Given that information at the start, most of us would have gone, "Ah, OK not a major problem for most practical purposes, I can work around that". It's an engineering explanation of the problem that we can understand and almost instantly answers the questions that most of us would have about the practical implications of this. The only way that could be better would be if they named the components and told us the actual measurements versus the required measurements.

Well, sort of.

The other question that hasn't been answered is whether the clearance distance between the two components in question met the original spec the meter was designed under (or, perhaps, some version prior to that -- implying that no real error was originally made) but somehow doesn't meet a later/current one, or whether it has always been out of spec from the beginning.   These are two very different scenarios, and I don't see any real way of determining which is the case.

If it's just a problem with it not meeting the current standard, then using the meter at higher voltages clearly shouldn't pose any issues at all, except perhaps regulatory ones.  But if it never met any of the standards, then it raises the question of whether or not the meter will meet its accuracy spec at higher voltages.   Saying that it can be used at those higher voltages doesn't automatically imply that it'll meet its accuracy specs at those higher voltages.

Given the totality of the circumstances, and the testing that went into the meter prior to its release (it clearly was characterized with its current design), I suspect we're looking at a regulatory issue only, and that accuracy and safety are not actually impacted by it.


Quote
Dear Keysight marketing/lawyers - next time you have an issue like this, instead of messing your customers about with cryptic specification changes that hide the real issue, go and ask your engineers "If you personally were a customer, ignoring anything you might think as one of our employees, what would you want to be told?" and then tell your customers exactly the answers that the engineers asked for.

Yep.  This.
 

Offline FivePoint03

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OK got this reply today:-

"Dear *****,
Thank you for the clarification.
I'm pleased to advise that after a rigorous and thorough investigation, Keysight have determined that the existing product design supports the original product measurement voltage of 1000VDC/750VAC.
This is because subsequent re-evaluation and re-assessment of the product design architecture across the relevant components have proven that there is sufficient protection that meets the IEC61010 safety standards requirements. Keysight concluded that while the original safety report incorrectly stated the safety ratings of a component, the safety measures designed into the equipment are not compromised. This assessment was validated by testing and Keysight have confirmed the maximum measurement voltage of 1000VDC/750VAC is appropriate.
Keysight will continue to offer the extended one year warranty on the units impacted in the serial number range and shipments from Keysight from 2013 until 30th April 2017.
I trust this resolves the matter from your side but please contact me with any further questions or concerns.

Best regards,
****.

Keysight Technologies UK Limited"
 

Online HighVoltage

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WOW!

What now, Keysight is retracting the service note with reduced voltages?
Just yesterday I had a big meeting with one of my larger customers and we agreed to use older 34410A meters instead, until the revised 34461A meters would be available by 12/2017.

What a mess !

And why would Keysight not step up and let us know directly here at the forum, if such a significant change was made again!

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Offline Cerebus

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And why would Keysight not step up and let us know directly here at the forum, if such a significant change was made again!

Because they seem to be incapable of learning from their previous mis-steps.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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The notice is still on the website - that answer isn't 100% clear that they are actually withdrawing the notice.
Seems a bit of a cock-up all round - were they originally mistaken, or have they realised it would be such a screw-up  that they've managed to "re-interpret" the requirement.

The only way they can preserve credibility is to publish more details of the actual issue for others to examine, or maybe get it certified by an independent test house.
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Offline Fgrir

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Keysight will continue to offer the extended one year warranty on the units impacted in the serial number range and shipments from Keysight from 2013 until 30th April 2017.

So we have two weeks left to pick up one of these meters with a free extra year of warranty?
 

Offline Joel_l

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Except the data sheet on the website has the lower voltages, so you might be buying it as is.

Keysight will continue to offer the extended one year warranty on the units impacted in the serial number range and shipments from Keysight from 2013 until 30th April 2017.

So we have two weeks left to pick up one of these meters with a free extra year of warranty?
 

Offline Fgrir

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Except the data sheet on the website has the lower voltages, so you might be buying it as is.

Yeah, but if they are going back to their original spec...
 

Offline Keysight Technologies Rep

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Hello EEVbloggers. We are jumping in here to make a few statements.  We had planned to wait for confirmation from a third party safety certification agency regarding the 3446xA and 34470A digital multimeters before finalizing our response to the community. However, since what was shared in two of these blog submissions is an incomplete, internal draft of our communication, we want to bring you up to date with where we are in the process.  Today, we submitted information to the agency, and expect to hear from them before the end of this month. We will share the outcome with you as soon as we receive it.
 
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Online HighVoltage

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Hello EEVbloggers. We are jumping in here to make a few statements.  We had planned to wait for confirmation from a third party safety certification agency regarding the 3446xA and 34470A digital multimeters before finalizing our response to the community. However, since what was shared in two of these blog submissions is an incomplete, internal draft of our communication, we want to bring you up to date with where we are in the process.  Today, we submitted information to the agency, and expect to hear from them before the end of this month. We will share the outcome with you as soon as we receive it.

Thank you Keysight for a small explanation.

Please include detailed description of the problem and how it was solved, when you are ready.
Otherwise, some of us might look really stupid towards our customers with this mess.

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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From the teardown photo of the 34461A I'd suspect it's an internal trace(s) causing the issue.

 

Offline carl_lab

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« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 09:12:36 am by carl_lab »
 

Online Messtechniker

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Wrong 11A fuse at 3A location!  :palm:

Apparently not as per Operating and Service Guide.

Here the quote from it:

"Both internal current path fuses are part number 2110-1402, 11 A, 1000 V, fast acting."
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Online HighVoltage

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Wrong 11A fuse at 3A location!  :palm:
May be Dave replaced them wrong after the tear down ?
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Offline Lajon

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No the 3A path has two fuses with the 3A fuse on the rear panel and one internal 11A.
/Lars
 


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