Author Topic: Keysight 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Maximum Allowable Voltage change notice.  (Read 50996 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5121
  • Country: nl
Yes, it doesn't indicate the fuse rating but the path it is in, the other 11A fuse is marked 10A.
A bit confusing I agree.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline Jwalling

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1517
  • Country: us
  • This is work?

Wrong 11A fuse at 3A location!  :palm:

3A TERM. I think the silkscreen is referring to the current input jack and it's rating.
Jay

System error. Strike any user to continue.
 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
OK, I was wrong.
But very useful, that you have to read the user manual for replacing the fuse...  ;)
 

Offline matemathieu

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 20
I went in town today to get one of those!

Then I heard about the problem, it's quite a bummer, they are rebadging the whole production!
Maybe they'll have to make a new series to fix that issue, because the competition makes it up to 1kV.
 

Offline matemathieu

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 20
Well, actually it was said on the second answer of the thread.
Sorry  :-X
 

Offline Hensingler

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: gb
After some argument Keysight agreed to repair (by unit exchange) my dead 34461A under the extended warranty associated with this issue. The exchange unit looks like it could be brand new but didn't come in new packaging with leads and documents. It looks like this.
 

Offline HighVoltage

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5453
  • Country: de
After some argument Keysight agreed to repair (by unit exchange) my dead 34461A under the extended warranty associated with this issue. The exchange unit looks like it could be brand new but didn't come in new packaging with leads and documents. It looks like this.
That just looks very sad!
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline The Soulman

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 949
  • Country: nl
  • The sky is the limit!
 :palm: A crappy sticker and it isn't even on straight..
@Hensingler: Was the failure of your unit related to high voltage use?
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
:palm: A crappy sticker and it isn't even on straight..
@Hensingler: Was the failure of your unit related to high voltage use?
It basically asks to be "upgraded" to the higher ratings underneath.
 

Offline Hensingler

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: gb
@Hensingler: Was the failure of your unit related to high voltage use?

No.  For the first time in a few weeks I pressed the power on button and it just showed a Keysight logo.

That was the day before the 04 service note was issued. I was unlucky that the meter died 6 months out of warranty, unlucky to find the repair cost was 95% the price of a brand new meter, then slightly lucky to find Keysight have extended the warranty over this voltage issue and after some argument it was repaired FOC.
 

Offline R005T3r

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 387
  • Country: it
After some argument Keysight agreed to repair (by unit exchange) my dead 34461A under the extended warranty associated with this issue. The exchange unit looks like it could be brand new but didn't come in new packaging with leads and documents. It looks like this.
That just looks very sad!

Absolutely!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 10:05:09 am by R005T3r »
 

Offline Dwaine

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 299
  • Country: ca
Maybe Keysight will start selling the stickers online to fix the issue.  I'm so glad I'm not wrapped up in this one with real customers. Makes the u1272a situation laughable. 

I'm real interested in people stories how they will handle the assembly lines test setups with no down time and their customer relationships.  Ok.  The meters are now rated differently for the voltage specs.  But there are a ton of these meters installed in some serious applications with the expectation and certification of a higher spec. 

Reading the messages and replies.  I was thinking the whole time "What do you do?"
 

Offline FivePoint03

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 51
  • Country: gb
OK got this reply today:-

"Dear *****,
Thank you for the clarification.
I'm pleased to advise that after a rigorous and thorough investigation, Keysight have determined that the existing product design supports the original product measurement voltage of 1000VDC/750VAC.
This is because subsequent re-evaluation and re-assessment of the product design architecture across the relevant components have proven that there is sufficient protection that meets the IEC61010 safety standards requirements. Keysight concluded that while the original safety report incorrectly stated the safety ratings of a component, the safety measures designed into the equipment are not compromised. This assessment was validated by testing and Keysight have confirmed the maximum measurement voltage of 1000VDC/750VAC is appropriate.
Keysight will continue to offer the extended one year warranty on the units impacted in the serial number range and shipments from Keysight from 2013 until 30th April 2017.
I trust this resolves the matter from your side but please contact me with any further questions or concerns.

Best regards,
****.

Keysight Technologies UK Limited"

As the Keysight web site still shows the downgraded spec. I've sent an email today asking for an updated spec. sheet to support this message.  It seems hard to imagine that the spec. will suddenly be restored - but I guess time will tell!
 

Offline HighVoltage

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5453
  • Country: de

I'm real interested in people stories how they will handle the assembly lines test setups with no down time and their customer relationships.  Ok.  The meters are now rated differently for the voltage specs.  But there are a ton of these meters installed in some serious applications with the expectation and certification of a higher spec. 


I decided with some of my customers to use the 34410A meter instead in the assembly test line.
But then - based on the above email statements - it seems Keysight might retract the downgrading.
So, we stopped the 34410A implementation and now we are waiting until the end of the month to have a final word from Keysight.

Unfortunately, I think the people at Keysight did not think this issue all the way through to the consequences for their customers.
The assembly test lines I am involved in, are officially certified and one can not just change specifications.
Essentially this would mean to stop the production line and wait for a solution.
Who will pay for that?

In my lab I have no problem at all, I just keep using the DMMs as before (up to 1000 VDC) and I got the OK, from Keysight for that.

But there might be assembly and testing lines that are much more critical than my customers.
What will they do?

I am really looking forward to a final statement from Keysight AND a complete disclosure of what was really going on.
Otherwise I will look really stupid towards my customers!

 
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2377
  • Country: de
My question in the Keysight Support Forum has been partially answered by tomc like this:

"This happened because the regulatory department reclassified a key part to the lower maximum voltage.  A redesign to fix this is in progress."

This statement is a bit strange, as the IEC61010 gives requirements about complete devices, but not about single components.


Anyhow, if this failing component is NOT the PCB itself, there are not so many possible parts (of the input path and input protection) left.

Comparing pictures of 34410/411A to those of 34464A/470A reveals, that these components are very probably identical.. I already assumed, that KS re-used great parts of the 410A/411A schematics for the 46xA / 470A.
Consequently, this crucial component will probably also affect the 34410/411A HV specification.

Would be bad news for using the 411A for 1kV applications..

Frank

 

Offline FivePoint03

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 51
  • Country: gb
Ok it really seems they are going to do a u-turn:-

"Dear *****,

Thank you for your email.
We have checked with our division, who advise the Keysight website is due to be updated with this information next Monday 01st May.

Best regards

Keysight Technologies UK Limited"

"Hi ****,
 
I’ve been monitoring the Keysight web site with regards to this issue.  I’m not happy with your response that the unit still supports 1000 VDC – whilst the website and data sheet still say otherwise.  Can you confirm there are plans to fully retract the downgrading of the specification?  In that case please could you email me a specification for the DMM that reinstates the 1000V measurement capability as soon as possible?
 
Thanks
 
*****"



 
The following users thanked this post: Alex Nikitin, Octane

Offline Keysight Technologies Rep

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: us
Hello EEVblog contributors and followers.

As we mentioned in mid-April, Keysight submitted detailed information about the 3446xA and 34470A digital multimeters to an independent safety certification agency. The agency has confirmed to us that there are no safety or compliance concerns in restating the instruments’ original input rating of
1000VDC/750VAC using the unchanged product design. As a result, we are updating the published specifications and resuming shipments of both product families. The updated product datasheets and services notes will be available on our website shortly.
 
We realize this situation impacted many valued customers, and apologize for any inconvenience. We appreciate the input from everyone in the EEVblog dialog – your perspectives and suggestions have been helpful in understanding and addressing the matter. We hope that our actions demonstrate
Keysight’s ongoing commitment to safety and compliance with industry standards. 
 
The following users thanked this post: Octane

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26751
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
So I can safely wipe the '600V DC' velt pen markings from my 34461A then  8)
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline HighVoltage

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5453
  • Country: de
Hello Keysight

Thank you for this U-Turn.
These results make me very happy but I don't think you realize how much confusion and hours of meetings this has caused me.
At least, I would have expected a full explanation of which parts have been involved. Like a full disclosure !

Well, at least those people who have bought a DMM with "sticker" can easily upgrade to the new specs by removing the sticker. :-DD
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline Robaroni

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 433
  • Country: us
  • Retired EE
    • Design Specialties
OK, so what's the final bottom line on this? We usually don't use the 65A at 1000 volts but should we be cautious? Sounds like some backtracking here from KS. Were they getting failed instruments back? How did this mess start. Geeze!
 

Offline Fgrir

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 153
  • Country: us
OK, so what's the final bottom line on this? We usually don't use the 65A at 1000 volts but should we be cautious? Sounds like some backtracking here from KS. Were they getting failed instruments back? How did this mess start. Geeze!

The thread is only 6 pages, you really could read it you know...
 

Offline Robaroni

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 433
  • Country: us
  • Retired EE
    • Design Specialties
OK, so what's the final bottom line on this? We usually don't use the 65A at 1000 volts but should we be cautious? Sounds like some backtracking here from KS. Were they getting failed instruments back? How did this mess start. Geeze!

The thread is only 6 pages, you really could read it you know...

I did!
Something doesn't fit, that's why I asked!
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
You'll become more forgiving of compliance confusion after you've been through this nightmare a few times. Ambiguous and often arbitrary rules coupled with strong opinions and interpretations make it exceedingly painful in instances like this. I'm just happy this issue is dead.
 

Online PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5121
  • Country: nl
I'm just happy this issue is dead.

Are you sure?  >:D
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
I'm just happy this issue is dead.

Are you sure?  >:D

I'm happy to let it drop. Some here might not. I'd be more irritated if I didn't just spend half my morning on the phone hashing on a similar compliance trainwreck that we thought might be a very high value showstopper.  I'm in a sympathetic mood right now.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf