Keysight 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Maximum Allowable Voltage change notice.

[GlowingGhoul]

I had my four meters hooked up to 1000 V DC over night and I see no problem at all.
May be not all meters are effected?

What do you expect to see for a problem described as causing damage "over the life" of a unit used at these voltages?

On another note, as to whether warranty claims for damage done by applying high-voltage post Keysight spec change....well, they'd have to prove you knew and did it anyway. Which would be a difficult thing to prove, unless you did it, took pictures, and posted in the forum discussing the notice from Keysight. 

I have been using these meters a lot over the years at just below 1000V, so they have aged over their life so far.
This was the first time I hooked them all in parallel to see if they show any sign of differences and they don't.

On the other hand I can not stop my customers from using them right now at just below 1000V, no matter if Keysight releases an updated note or not, this would mean production STOP !

I doubt they could deny you service even if you did use it according to the old spec. A consumer doesn't have an obligation to accommodate a change to specifications after the sale.

[Zucca]

Com'on KS, just release the schematics and we will make them 1500V, and everybody will be happy again.

[Dwaine]

The problem right now is that Keysight has nothing available even to replace these meters with (except, perhaps, 3458A but that would be a bit much to expect  ), so if you need to measure voltages over 600V DC and 440AC accurately, you have to look elsewhere or resort to some band-aids like an external voltage divider.

What's the big deal?
How many people need to measure between 600V and 1000V regularly in practice?

I do with old tube amps and tube power supplies.  There are still some us around.. I'm rebuilding a Heathkit SB101 now.  Back to the Rigol DM3068 again.

[TheSteve]

Maybe there will be a flood of cheap 3446xA's, I'll sell my 34411A and pickup another one.

I am sure we will hear more from Keysight shortly.

[Cerebus]

This is beginning to smell like the U127xA all over again.

Their response to that was to change the published specifications and it was, in retrospect, clear that they had no plan to recall/replace these until they got given some stick on here. You'd think they would have learned something that time around and once they discovered this problem would have put a complete plan in place and made complete, cogent and clear details available.

How do you know they don't have such a plan?

The silence.

If it was my business I'd make damn sure that the bad news, the specification change notice, was accompanied by good news, even if it was as little as something like "Detailed plans for how Keysight will address this problem for units in the field will be published on or before the nth of m-month 2017. In the meantime fuller details of the issue can be seen at http://somewhere and that page will be updated as more information becomes available."

They would have had no choice but to change the specification, as they have sold countless units already. The specifications should be changed to reflect the actual units that have shipped and are currently in stock around the world.
For example, a user who just bought a unit would download the spec sheet to find out what the maximum specs are before they go use it for such a purpose. You can't leave those people hanging, so changing the specs right away was the right thing to do.
Don't read any more into that.

Coming out with a revised design, fix, recall, refund offer, or whatever is another issue entirely.

I have no doubt they know it's a big deal and are working on a solution.

What's a big deal is handling it as ham-fisted a way as they handled the previous handheld meter issues. it doesn't take any longer to offer some useful information to your customer than it does to issue the specification update. You might not have a full plan, a full solution, but you can offer what you do currently have. If you know enough to know that the meter's borked then you know enough to tell customers how it's borked and whether you're going to see them right.

[0xfede]

Today I was contacted by Microlease and I've been told that there should not be safety problem with the instrument. The employee also stated that he don't know exactly what the problems are and which policy Keysight will adopt.
De facto no answers were given but he promise that in the next days I'll be called again as soon new informations arrive.

Best,
0xfede


 

[Dwaine]

I think that the failure will happen within warranty period.  If not and it was later in life for the meter.  Keysight would just wait for the slew of repairs to show up.

I hope it just a few components that can be replaced with another manufacturer. 

These instruments are not cheap eBay specials.  Already noted that these are sitting on production lines.  So the cost of this incident is larger than say the u127x situation.

I

[GlowingGhoul]

So Keysight seems to have decided to allow this issue to fester for another day. Very disappointing.

[Alex Nikitin]

TDNBW.

Cheers

Alex

[TheSteve]

No service notes released on the issue, no reply to Dr Frank on the Keysight forum. They were very fast to update all references on the Keysight website though. It now advertises them as a 34401A replacement but with 600 VDC maximum - so only sort of a replacement.
I just realized I have AC voltages over 440 at the shop that I guess I can't measure anymore.

[carl_lab]

    Input values exceeding the maximum allowable measured voltage of 600 VDC or
    440 VAC could, over the lifetime of the product, result in damage to the
    instrument.

Wow, that's a very bad joke...
If that's true, our company probably won't buy these Keysight DMMs any more.

34461A/465A were announced to be successor of 34401A/410A...
We bought many as a replacement for no more available 34401A/410A. 

I will continue calibrating them at 1000 VDC as originally specified, because we received no call-back nor other official info about reduced spec. Maybe I should increase test voltage to 1100V or 1200V to ensure failure of weak units within warranty period?

Of course, if some units die, I'll send them for warranty-replacement...

[HighVoltage]

Today I contacted the German distributor where I bought my instruments but they could also not tell me anything specific.

In the meantime I will be continuing using them for up to 1000 V DC, because I do not have a real other choice here.

[Tom45]

No service notes released on the issue, no reply to Dr Frank on the Keysight forum. They were very fast to update all references on the Keysight website though. It now advertises them as a 34401A replacement but with 600 VDC maximum - so only sort of a replacement.
I just realized I have AC voltages over 440 at the shop that I guess I can't measure anymore.

The datasheet http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5991-1983EN.pdf hasn't been updated:

[carl_lab]

I want HP back...

[wraper]

This tread is becoming a cry fest.

[corn11]

Hmm, I've just thought about selling my 34401A and getting a 34461A  .
Although this problem seems to be more severe than others, I think they'll fix it. In the past there were also some issues with the 34401A and other meters (as highlighted here before) and they ever came up with a decent solution.
For example look at the service notes for the 34401A, often there were only a limited number of units affected sometimes only one or two and they've took care of it and wrote a SN. As pointed out before by various others this might also be the case here.  Other companies might have completely hidden such problems, just sitting there and waiting for a customer to come up with a known issue.

[kaz911]

It is all a numbers game. How many will in reality request a replacement - even on 100% public newspaper headline recalls for consumer products - very few requests a replacement or act on the recalls. I think the biggest recall "success" was Samsung as they ? disabled peoples phones if they did not respond? (Not certain about it but I seem to remember something like that...) - but I am certain they did not get all of them back.

But Keysight does have some recent stats on the Multimeters to base their numbers on so I have faith in the Keysight guys & girls.  I do not often measure above 400V A/C but it does happen but I won't force it into "oblivion". And if it is only a component issue - then it would be solved very quick - so I think they might have to re-spin the boards to make it work - which is why it will take a while before new ones are out.

But I do love my 34465a... I just wish they would make a real dual or triple channel version   Mine runs for weeks logging data.

[Faith]

This tread is becoming a cry fest.

Well, I own a 34465A (w/ DIG+MEM) and while I pretty much never go beyond the 600VDC/440VAC realm I do realise that I myself am not representative of everyone else's usage scenarios which are expected out of this DMM and can thus sympathise with anyone who is more than a little bit cross at this "slight" change in specification.

Okay, maybe not so "slight." We're "only" talking about a drop from 1000VDC/750VAC all the way down to 600VDC/440VAC on one of the instrument's key measurements.

Sarcasm aside though, my issues pretty much boil down to the following two facts:

(A) That I am finding out about this issue on this forum first instead of my email inbox which my Keysight account containing my 34465A has the address for, which speaks volumes about Keysight's ineptitude where customer communication is concerned, and;

(B) That this is the second time in half a year or so a Keysight DMM I own is affected by a post-purchase change in specification (the other being a U1273A).

So I think it's fair to say that I am a somewhat less-than-thrilled Keysight owner right now, especially given that Keysight's original solution to "tackling" the issues surrounding the U1273A DMM was far from optimal. Doesn't really instil a lot of customer confidence, even if you're predominantly unaffected. Still though, love using my 34465A.

Edit: So, uhm, Keysight; are we going to get any stickers to update the front panels of our DMM's? >.<"...

[Messtechniker]

Edit: So, uhm, Keysight; are we going to get any stickers to update the front panels of our DMM's? >.<"...

And for the rear panels and the manuals for that matter.
How about throwing in a free calibration too when not needing to go above 600VDC/440VAC.

[wraper]

So I think it's fair to say that I am a somewhat less-than-thrilled Keysight owner right now, especially given that Keysight's original solution to "tackling" the issues surrounding the U1273A DMM was far from optimal. Doesn't really instil a lot of customer confidence, even if you're predominantly unaffected.

So, I guess, they should not had published this info ASAP before they had a complete plan how to deal with this situation. A lot of tears of crybabies would be saved. Was it, say, Rigol, you'd never ever knew that this issue existed at all.
What is your "optimal" solution? Instantly replacing all affected meters with unaffected stock you don't have?

[Alex Nikitin]

So I think it's fair to say that I am a somewhat less-than-thrilled Keysight owner right now, especially given that Keysight's original solution to "tackling" the issues surrounding the U1273A DMM was far from optimal. Doesn't really instil a lot of customer confidence, even if you're predominantly unaffected.

So, I guess, they should not had published this info ASAP before they had a complete plan how to deal with this situation. A lot of tears of crybabies would be saved. Was it, say, Rigol, you'd never ever knew that this issue existed at all.
What is your "optimal" solution? Instantly replacing all affected meters with unaffected stock you don't have?

I find your attitude very ... childish, sorry. Anyone who works in a controlled environment and has to comply with standards and regulations, would understand perfectly well what me and other affected members complain about. Sh*t happens, however there are certain expectations of how a decent company like Keysight, should behave in a situation like this. Right now they let down many people not because their meters are faulty and can not meet the advertised specification, but because they are not forthcoming with the information which could be critical for businesses using their products, leaving their customers essentially up sh*t creek without a paddle.

Cheers

Alex

[Jono427]

So I think it's fair to say that I am a somewhat less-than-thrilled Keysight owner right now, especially given that Keysight's original solution to "tackling" the issues surrounding the U1273A DMM was far from optimal. Doesn't really instil a lot of customer confidence, even if you're predominantly unaffected.

So, I guess, they should not had published this info ASAP before they had a complete plan how to deal with this situation. A lot of tears of crybabies would be saved. Was it, say, Rigol, you'd never ever knew that this issue existed at all.
What is your "optimal" solution? Instantly replacing all affected meters with unaffected stock you don't have?

Disclaimer: I do not own one of these DMMs, but was considering getting a 1000x for my first scope - I will be watching how they handle this to decide before I but one.

Well the addendum was dated March 17th, and they still apparently have still not notified registered owners.  As one person put it not having a plan yet for a fix/replacement is fine, but they should probably have given more info about the issue (now bad is taking a 1000v DC measurement) and at a minimum should have sent that to the owners to give them notice that the product is no longer rated as originally advertised.

[wraper]

I find your attitude very ... childish, sorry.

I find childish all sorts of speculations and assumptions in the recent posts.

[GlowingGhoul]

I find your attitude very ... childish, sorry.

I find childish all sorts of speculations and assumptions in the recent posts.

The fault lies squarely with Keysight. They have not given even the slightest indication that intend to do something about this very serious matter. A simple indication that a resolution is being worked on  would be professional. As it stands, they are behaving no differently than a company intent on foisting this problem onto innocent customers.

[Keysight Technologies Rep]

Thanks to those on this EEV blog thread for the dialog about a standards compliance issue with Keysight Technologies’ 3446XA and 34470A digital multimeters. Your conversation reinforces Keysight’s commitment to address this issue to the satisfaction of our customers. We apologize if this has inconvenienced any of our customers, and acknowledge that this response is coming later than some would have hoped. 
 
What we have determined
While the product was initially rated at a maximum input value of 1000VDC/750VAC, this has been reduced to 600 VDC/440VAC to allow a component to operate within its rated values. There is no change in the Measurement Category II rating of 300V. The change in the maximum rated input voltage is to ensure the product meets requirements of the IEC61010 standards. Most importantly, there are no safety concerns related to this change.
 
Failure risk very low, no safety risk
The products maintain their performance accuracy, and no failures have been observed up to 1000VDC. While there is the possibility of component failure in using the products above 600 VDC/440VAC, there are no safety risks. Further, there have been no known component-related reliability failures since shipment of these products started in 2013.
 
Confidence in product reliability
These products continue to be covered by Keysight’s three-year standard warranty, and effective immediately, we will provide an additional one-year warranty extension to ensure customers can depend on our products.
 
Next steps
Keysight has begun redesigning the 3446XA and 34470A digital multimeters to reinstate the original maximum input ratings of 1000VDC/750VAC. We have set a goal to ship the redesigned products by December of 2017, and will make every effort to begin shipment sooner than that.
 
For more information about the steps Keysight is taking to address this issue, we have posted a service note on the company’s website. To view the service note, navigate to Keysight’s website, https://servicenotes.literature.keysight.com/litapp/SearchSN.do?method=openExternalSNSearch&prodNum= and type in product number 34461A-04. Any customers who require 1000VDC/750VAC testing capabilities can contact a Keysight Customer Contact Center and reference the service note number.